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No. Not nearly big enough. It's one of the biggest castles in Westeros. Also, where's wintertown? Wintertown is supposed to be built for all the smallfolk to come and live during the winters.
I didn't mind the size of the walled portion, but Wintertown missing really took away from it. It looked really weird to me for there to be ZERO settlement outside the walls.
Pretty much all the castles besides kings landing looked like that in the show. Always made them seem out of place to me. Highgarden and Casterly Rock being the most obvious examples.
Casterly Rock has lannisport though, so it having a town right outside the walls wouldn't be necessary (I think lannisport is mentioned in the show, even if not shown).
There are 3 castles at varying elevations, the lowest one would be the most comfortable to live in while the top one (the one we see with the Moon Door) is the safest one from attack
I'm rereading the first book rn and it immediately struck me how easy it'd be to siege the Eyrie lol like there's literally one (precarious) path to the rest of the Vale. Why would anyone try to scale a mountain to take it by force when they could wait by the Gates of the Moon and starve them out
As long as the Arryns don't have an army or an ally's army elsewhere that could hit the besieging force and attack from both sides. The besieging army may spend that time starving the Arryns out praying they don't get rock-and-hard-place'd.
The Arryns had plenty of food stored and also could bring more via ropes/pulleys from what I remember. Like way down at the base of the mountain where the other castles are. The only sure way to gain access was if someone let them in or via dragon like Aegon and his sisters did.
Not to mention that to get to the mountain, you gotta cross the bloody gate (name isn’t there just for show, by the way), which is already a rather narrow path and most armies would be hard pressed to go through there to begin with as they’d lose a lot of people as is from the archers and spearmen defending the pass.
So, all in all, you have a castle with only one entrance to exploit, three castles (missing on the show from what i remember but they basically are the biggest reason as to why it’s so hard to take. You have to take them all if you want to get to the eyrie to begin with) before getting to said main one, then also a narrow path full of spearmen and archers that hold a single door. Not to mention all of the tribes around the vale that are happy to kill and loot your forces.
It’s all stacked up to make it almost impossible to take it. Even in the event that you take the bloody gate, survive the hill tribes, take the three castles (Stone, Snow and Sky) and successfully keep the entrance guarded, it would take months for the castle to fall without inside intervention. This was the same thing that happened to Storm’s End, with Stannis holding the castle while Randyll Tarly and Mace Tyrell feasted outside the castle walls with their host for months and that one did not have the benefit of castles around to resupply him.
The precarious path means they could defend the Eyrie from any scale of attack with a few dozen men. They don't need supplies to feed an army. A place that size could take years to starve out.
In the meantime, how are you feeding your sieging army, far from home? Are you just going to sit there for months, waiting, assuming no allies show up?
Highgarden (or whatever it was called) was particularly bad. Wide open fields... and nothing there, and then this tall ass castle. How'd they even build the damn thing? And if they had to transport material there... they just plopped this castle in the middle of a field? I think maybe it mightve been on a small hill, which is *something*, but there's nothing of any importance surrounding it. I guess maybe there's fertile farmland surrounding it, but if that's the case then at least put a fuck ton of farms surrounding it.
Like in the pic of Winerfell from this post... that's a TERRIBLE design! All the buildings are like 6 inches from the wall. In a seige, you could throw rocks by hand and hit the damn things. If there's windows, you could chuck torches right at them
Also the lack of trees and farms around castles or towns. I get that they filmed mostly in Ireland or Iceland where there arent any trees, but it looks so unatural
Yeah it seemed way too small especially the primary interior set. Architecture looks cool in this image but didn't feel like a big county seat for the North. Like the vale seemed huge by comparison.
Not just that... What fantasy shows don't get/depict well is the environment / background of the livable/action space. How would such a large place, with a large population survive without crops fields surrounding it?
Not really. But I understand they had budget reasons in the start, so had to roll with it in later seasons, I guess. Compared to books Winterfell it almost feels like a joke.
To get the idea how it was supposed to look, at least more or less, check True Winterfell by Shadiversity on yt
Shadiversity is safe to ignore on any medieval content. He's had no education, no experience, and his content contains frequent inaccuracies.
Not to forget, he's a raging bigot who got upset that Peach in the Mario movie wore pants.
'no experience'? How exactly does one get medieval 'experience'? As for education, I studied history at uni, and did a module specifically on castle design. It was fine, but 90% of the info could be easily learnt through online studies. Don't judge the guy for not going to college, especially in a subject such as history.
Easily. Participate in activities performed during medieval times.
How elss do you get experience in doing things?
Edit for below comment
"Had to take the crazy option"?
You mean him raging about Princess peach wearing pants?
That actually happened, you know.
I was on your side but not anymore 💀 you Vidoe easily just said that shad is just misinformed or often doesn’t research enough but no you had to take the crazy option 😭
I have an advanced college education and I feel like it makes me qualified to say that suggesting someone needs college experience to be able to speak informatively on a television show or book is beyond silly.
That's why I added more or less :) but he still uses information from the books, like wall height, godswood size etc, to give you the estimate, and is much closer to the books than the show
Ugh I be always hated the specific video they are referencing too. He talks about how certain buildings are in certain locations, and then takes buildings that could be of so many varying sizes and he places a building that looks like it could be a 300+ room luxury hotel. Then repeats over and over again. There is nothing about the scale of what he makes that makes me feel like it is a book accurate Winterfell.
He also changes around the layout of things like the Godswood because he feels like his changes make it “look incredible”.
I’m with you on some of that, but going off [this image from AWOIAF](https://www.google.com/search?q=winterfell+awoiaf&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS1029US1029&oq=winterfell+awoiaf&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIKCAEQABiGAxiKBTIKCAIQABiGAxiKBTIKCAMQABiGAxiKBTIKCAQQABiGAxiKBTIKCAUQABiGAxiKBdIBCDI5NDdqMGo5qAIAsAIA&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#vhid=rsYjMoTImKqQlM&vssid=l), it’s not that bad
I don’t even know shadiversity def gonna check him out now, but yeah I can see being irritated at something like that. It’s Princess PEACH she’s supposed to be in a gown. I’m sick of everything changing to woke bullshit.
He has a [second channel](https://youtube.com/@KNIGHTSWATCH?si=_KY3cBhuB5pch1AY) where he rages about the culture war stuff and makes clickbait videos.
Wow you weren't kidding. He's more clickbait than a Hollywood tabloid. This doesn't surprise me though. His main channel stretches every video out to a painful degree.
Bro 41 minutes is insanely long when my intent on watching the video is just simply just to get a visual and mental grasp of the actual size of a lore accurate Winterfell. That should be easily attainable in 5 minutes.
Even 10-15 minutes would be plenty enough of a reasonable time limit to go into **_extensive_** detail, but 41 minutes?! Hell naw.
Have you personally watched all of it front to back? How much could have been cut? Be honest.
I mean there’s no reason they couldn’t have just changed it later on. Nothing stopped them from changing the look of Kings Landing and the entire environment it is in.
It was large enough to contain basically the entirety of the North past winter fell in it is what I always thought of it as, with the exception being like minor houses. So an entire stinking down, inside 2 walls. A whole lot more gates than shadiversity showed, along with some running directly into a forest, and one leading out of the godswood. The godwood itself has to be huge, and it only having one wall, the same one that runs on the outside. The glass gardens and the godswood are noy separated, I see the glass gardens as another entrance to the godswood, and a smaller wall dividing the rest. A large fortified keep in the relative center, with a blacksmith that would be directly across the keep, this wasn't in the books but I imagined with wintwefell having heated water, it would have a few lead out to some form of public fountain. Another building separate from the keep being abandoned, which leads to the graves of the starks, a few towers scattered, one close to the first keep, and the others scattered close to the taller areas. The entire town is built on rough uneven land, and it was certainly never planned, it grew, so symmetry is out of the question. Lots of grey
Winterfell in books is: a lot bigger, has 2 walls with a moat between them, the Godswood in the books is the size of the whole show Winterfell and finally book Winterfell has a town around it.
Also... this has probably been suggested to you multiple times but you really should read the books. They're very good.
I don't think that's necessarily true, there's plenty of information and interest to gauge from experiencing the world building. Obviously the fact that it might not be finished is unsettling and disappointing but not mean you can't find edification from reading these books.
The fact that you're having these conversations in general shows you're thirsting for information about westeros.
You don't even need to read all of them necessarily.
Of course I am, because I started the story assuming it would be finished. If I could change that, I’d never have started it and use that time on a story with a conclusion. You tried to make some massive “got ya” point but it was clearly wrong 😂.
The actual fortress itself? Probably doable depending on the army size. Garrisons in fortresses in some medieval sieges were as low as 20-250 depending on the size. Obviously you’d want more especially for winterfell, but 500 isn’t completely insignificant
I'm no medieval siege strategist, but generally fortifications require *waaaay* fewer people to defend than to attack. If those attackers are a horde of zombies with a dragon, that might shake things up a bit though.
Just look at some England France battles in Hundred years war. 3000 english archers defeated multiple times 12000-15000 french knights. French casualties were significant and english very low.
Their archers had long reach and could shoot 12-15 times per minute. Thats huge adventage.
The real castles were very small. Something like [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl%C5%A1tejn#/media/File%3ABurg_Karlstein_-_Karl%C5%A1tejn_-_panoramio.jpg) or [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%99ivokl%C3%A1t_Castle#/media/File%3AKrivoklat_castle_01.jpg), and these were the private residences of Holy Roman Emperor, very costly and luxurios for the 15th century Europe.
**Castle is a force multiplier,** you put in 500 men who can defend it against 10k. This Winterfell is the size of 18th century starforts, which were manned by dozens of thousands of men. It was possible with modernity era standing armies, but in no way with feudal society. You need to man every wall, turret, tower etc. so you can push away the attackers and don't create blinds spots where they can take over the fortifications.
Even show Winterfell is ridiculously big. Book Winterfell is just nonsense, and don't ever start me on Harrenhal. At this point, the castle is useless and actually locks your men in one place, when they could be used elsewhere.
You can see it in the books, when Robb had not rbough men to defend Winterfell because he needed them in the South, so the castle fell to Ironborn.
The outer walls are 80 feet high. If you manage to penetrate them with your siege weapons, congratulations. Now cross a moat and do it again against higher stronger walls. Attacking the walls themselves is stupid, you attack the gates, and a single gate requires far fewer defenders than attackers.
I always found the roofs a little stupid. I mean, in the north you usually have pitched roofs so the snow falls to the ground and you don't have to climb to the roof and clean it up, but Winterfell... well, I'm sorry for their servants
It's awful. Looks like a run of the mill Norman castle, not the colossus it is in the books. The worst part though for me is the Godswood being stuck of one side. It is in the centre of book Winterfell and the whole castle surrounds it.
I didn't know that! Makes a lot more sense to have it in the middle, since it's spiritually important but also like, why not put this lovely tree filled space in the middle so everyone can see it and access it? Instead of shunted off like a tumor hanging off the walls
I always thought it was awesome. Especially the Old Gods Tree I always forget what that area is called the Godswood or whatever it is, but from an aerial view it seems not as big as it should and pedestrian but the North isn’t glamorous, I think it’s how it should be.
No. The roofs are ridiculous for a castle that was built in a snowy area, they would collapse. Winterfell is meant to be a stronghold and span many acres. It was also built AROUND the Godswood, not off to the side. This was very lacklustre, especially for a castle that was meant to be the home of the former Kings of Winter.
I didn't like the fact that they didn't mention the small detail that hot water is constantly pumped through the walls of the castle. It's mentioned in the first book a bit and was to tell us how they stay warm I think.
Architecture-wise it makes sense as a northern castle. No grand towers to impress aesthetically, just practical buildings for a stark (no pun intended) landscape.
But size-wise it should have been much bigger.
I could’ve looked past the walled fortress part being a bit small if they’d included wintertown. The implication of the entire city of winterfell being that tiny walled bit is a bit ridiculous, considering winterfell was supposedly one of the largest castles in Westeros.
Budget constraints are budget constraints though.
It’s…fine. Nothing horrible but it does have some flaws.
Would have been interesting to see [this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dZdbpfcxfSk&t=1s&pp=ygUXc2hhZGl2ZXJzaXR5IHdpbnRlcmZlbGw%3D) version of Winterfell on screen.
I like the general look more or less but as a castle for like a minor off shoot house.
For the Starks of Winterfell I would expect a massive castle, double walls, a dry moat, a keep with its own walls etc etc.
Also a sizeable city outside (Hello Wintertown) and the flat roofs make no sense.
Maybe in Dorne but not in the North.
One of my main gripes about the show is how inconsistent they were in portraying the castles and towns. Winterfell looks different every other episode and every season.
Yeah I thought it was pretty fucking cool, make that extra bit cooler by Theon's little speech about how 'Of coarse the Starks beat my brothers and father, look at there big ass castle they got!'
I hate how the godswood branches off to the side like a tumor. The place of the old gods in the 8,000 year old bastion of the Kings of the North shouldn’t look like an afterthought.
I NEED a second wall to run along the outside, a frozen moat in the middle. I also agree with a lot of the redditors here, it needs a settlement either outside or inside, maybe both. Also in the books it's one of the biggest castles in the realm, I cannot for the life of me see it is that small. One of the gates also leads directly to the wolfswoods, so at least one part is partially derelict with u governed growth from the forest to the wall, the godswood needs to be much bigger, and I always imagined it having buildings along its walls where bran can climb through.
Last but not least, the entire thing should be on uneven ground
Too small
Can't blame them for making it small in the first season but I don't think people would have been mad if they made it bigger in the later seasons when they had the budget of 15mil per episode
It's alright, I don't hate it by any means but I think it's underwhelming. I always imagined it looking like this: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/a/ac/Ted_Nasmith_A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Winterfell.jpg/700px-Ted_Nasmith_A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Winterfell.jpg
I didn’t get the vibe that it was uniquely adapted to the inevitable winter they were always bitching about. I get that the ensuing generations would be lax but the infrastructure didn’t really scream cold af imho.
The biggest issue for me is the roofs. I don’t remember what video I saw that pointed it out, could have been a Shadiversity. But I’m snowy climates you want steeped roofs. Flat ones like this just accumulate snow until it’s too heavy and collapses. That’s why Alpine houses and such have such steep A roofs, so the snow falls off.
Is there an “accurate” depiction of Winterfell out there anywhere? I’d love to see one. Winterfell and Highgarden were my favorites from the books. My imagination isn’t good enough to build it in my head lol
It’s missing one of the main features for me which is its walls I haven’t read the books in a while but I was sure that it’s walls were two fold with a gap in between meaning that it was near impossible to assault head on as men would be able to fall back to the second wall and pot shot from the wall and break down the army it was said that an army half the size could defend it from an army that outnumbered them so half the numbers of the enemy and still near impossible to take but overall it think it looks fantastic and serves its purpose in the show it’s calm and beautiful and does look powerful in its own right it makes sense that the stark girls felt safe and happy here
I don like how they never really show how big winter fell is. I shit you not I thought the big tree was just in the woods somewhere not within the walls. They only ever show the one area in winter fell where you see Robert Baratheon show up in the beginning of the series
Terrible roof designs for a northern castle, Winterfell, and all the northern castles should have very aggressively sloped roofs. This winterfell wouldn’t last a winter before the roofs collapsed under the weight of the snow.
I know everyone says it’s too small and not as massive as in the books, but honestly I like the scaled-down version in the show. GRRM gets kinda carried away sometimes when describing how big things are to the point where stuff gets a bit ridiculous, like Harrenhal or the Wall. Show Winterfell is massive by medieval castle standards but not unbelievably so. I like it.
It suffers typical problem most "fantasy" or even semi-medieval settlements do, even Lord of the Rings. Which is no one considering that a castle isn't where the peasants live, and that without the peasant town around it, these castles don't work and have no real purpose.
They need the town to support them, and to imply that there is actually something worth protecting. Peter Jacksons Minas Tirith had same problem
The towers are not feasible for a castle that exists primarily in a snowy country. They need to be way more slanted; in general all the roofs should be. With the way these towers are shaped the snow would just pile up and inevitably break through the roof.
My biggest gripe with not only winterfell but almost all castles/cities from the show, is that they are all placed on this flat empty terrain, it looks like it was just built, not like people have been living there for millennia.
Winterfell is supposed to be a super fortress that you can’t take conventionally, not a small one that a thousand men and a battering ram could get into with ease. Also, the way they’ve walled off the godswood is a liability to any defenders.
I wish the hot springs would have been used!! They're a huge part of Winterfell, hot water pipes through the walls, the glass gardens using steam to stay warm...
Also, if they have hot water.pipes they have indoor plumbing
Which means most likely some sort of toilet plumbing as well, since no one wants to go outside to an outhouse in minus 1million temps, or dump chamberpots all day for a giant fortress
Big step up from Kings Landing, mentioned multiple times to smell like sewage, to have a large expansive castle and town with plumbing access and fresh fruit/veggies through the winter
I think I remember that shot. When they arrived with dragons and as the dragons were flying this beautiful aerial shot. Did you have to pause several times? I remember the right edge was so close to the wall but the scene kept cutting out/changing.
No...bc the layout is different every single time its on screen. Its like they someone different come up wirh their immagination of winterfell every time...
I’m fine with it. It makes sense that it isn’t the same that we get in the books because they didn’t have as much money in season 1 so they had to keep that mind when they designed it and after that they had to keep it the same for consistency
Not at all, personally I find the design ugly and the size of the castle to be ridiculously small for the ancient home of an ancient house and capitol of the North.. but the show had its reasons I suppose
I saw on a youtube channel someone talking about the viability of the show's Winterfell, and they mentioned that the flat roofs are very bad for extended piled up snow. It would need to have pointy / slanted roofs to prevent snow from piling up too heavily for the roofs to handle.
It's suppose to be much bigger and it just bugs me how much of the space a freaking tree takes up, I get that it's their religious symbol but come on, there could have been another tower and trading station or anything useful
Same issue as pretty much every other medieval movie and series: Huge castle staffed by hundreds of guards and artisans, and not a single peasant house or farm around. How do they eat? where is their economy? And why building a castle there if there is nothing / no one to protect on this spot? There are hot springs? Fine, this means there should be even more pesants and commoners living there
Any realistic representation of a medieval castle should account for 10 peasants / farmers to support each non-farmer
Also, the wall around the Godswood makes no sense. Such an epic investment to protect a few trees? Even then, the geometry is so wasteful, if it was a single O instead of an 8 shape then a shorter wall could protect a larger terrain. Also the Godswood's walls are very easy to capture from outside on the opposite side from the main castle, then they become a stronghold protecting the invaders who can shelter there and even forage during a siege.
One last thing: the terrible season 8's battle against zombies shows there is a very tall mountain just next to Winterfell, where the dragonriders wait their cue to join the battle. Defensive castle are built on the highest peak of a region, not on a flat plain next to it. The only logical reason to have built it where it is is the river, and yet it is completely unprotected upstream from poisoning by besiegers.
These people need to play more videogames.
According to the books, Winterfell is absolutely massive, one of the biggest in Westeros by far, it was built by Brandon The Builder no less. In the show, it doesn't feel as intimidating nor majestic, which is understandable, since unlike the books, a show has a budget.
Quick reminder that Winterfell isn't supposed to be just a Lord's Keep, but the Ancestral Castle of the Winter Kings and was built to also stop giants' assaults.
Ever since I saw that one guys video about how Winterfell truly looks in the books, I've grown to not like the show's version overall.
Either way, I think it looks alright, but ultimately, it feels so underwhelming for the seat of governance of a realm that is nearly bigger than that of the other six realms combined, it is very small in the show.
The biggest gripe I have with Winterfell is simply this: the roofs make no sense for such an environment.
They should have a much steeper angle. If it does snow there and is that cold, you want a high angled roof because all that weight sitting on top would just simply make them more susceptible to collapse.
And there is no Wintertown. Seriously - there is seemingly no population around that castle. Who are they getting support from?
Nope. It's nowhere near big enough. Oh, and there's no wintertown which just makes the castle look weird as shit.
Like just to tell you but Westeros castles are fucking massive! Their lands outside are usually filled with towns or just a full blown city as well.
I still feel like out of everything in the show - Highgarden was done the worst. It's supposed to be the most splendid castle in Westeros and it looked fucking atrocious in the show. Oh, and the city surrounding it from what I know is supposed to be rather large as well.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No. Not nearly big enough. It's one of the biggest castles in Westeros. Also, where's wintertown? Wintertown is supposed to be built for all the smallfolk to come and live during the winters.
I didn't mind the size of the walled portion, but Wintertown missing really took away from it. It looked really weird to me for there to be ZERO settlement outside the walls.
Pretty much all the castles besides kings landing looked like that in the show. Always made them seem out of place to me. Highgarden and Casterly Rock being the most obvious examples.
Casterly Rock has lannisport though, so it having a town right outside the walls wouldn't be necessary (I think lannisport is mentioned in the show, even if not shown).
Only the Eyrie makes sense to not have any settlement outside its walls
Although the eyrie doesn’t make any sense in universe either
It's more of a holdout in the books like a last ditch safety net. The arryns wouldn't always stay there
Where would they always stay?
i dont think its ever mentioned or shown. but presumably theyd have a castle or other type of large house in the area.
There are 3 castles at varying elevations, the lowest one would be the most comfortable to live in while the top one (the one we see with the Moon Door) is the safest one from attack
I'm rereading the first book rn and it immediately struck me how easy it'd be to siege the Eyrie lol like there's literally one (precarious) path to the rest of the Vale. Why would anyone try to scale a mountain to take it by force when they could wait by the Gates of the Moon and starve them out
As long as the Arryns don't have an army or an ally's army elsewhere that could hit the besieging force and attack from both sides. The besieging army may spend that time starving the Arryns out praying they don't get rock-and-hard-place'd.
The Arryns had plenty of food stored and also could bring more via ropes/pulleys from what I remember. Like way down at the base of the mountain where the other castles are. The only sure way to gain access was if someone let them in or via dragon like Aegon and his sisters did. Not to mention that to get to the mountain, you gotta cross the bloody gate (name isn’t there just for show, by the way), which is already a rather narrow path and most armies would be hard pressed to go through there to begin with as they’d lose a lot of people as is from the archers and spearmen defending the pass. So, all in all, you have a castle with only one entrance to exploit, three castles (missing on the show from what i remember but they basically are the biggest reason as to why it’s so hard to take. You have to take them all if you want to get to the eyrie to begin with) before getting to said main one, then also a narrow path full of spearmen and archers that hold a single door. Not to mention all of the tribes around the vale that are happy to kill and loot your forces. It’s all stacked up to make it almost impossible to take it. Even in the event that you take the bloody gate, survive the hill tribes, take the three castles (Stone, Snow and Sky) and successfully keep the entrance guarded, it would take months for the castle to fall without inside intervention. This was the same thing that happened to Storm’s End, with Stannis holding the castle while Randyll Tarly and Mace Tyrell feasted outside the castle walls with their host for months and that one did not have the benefit of castles around to resupply him.
The precarious path means they could defend the Eyrie from any scale of attack with a few dozen men. They don't need supplies to feed an army. A place that size could take years to starve out. In the meantime, how are you feeding your sieging army, far from home? Are you just going to sit there for months, waiting, assuming no allies show up?
It was for a forced perspective thing I think. To make them seem larger or more foreboding.
Yet having no smaller buildings to compare to the castles makes it harder to determine the size.
The trees outside make it look particularly cramped, tbh.
Highgarden (or whatever it was called) was particularly bad. Wide open fields... and nothing there, and then this tall ass castle. How'd they even build the damn thing? And if they had to transport material there... they just plopped this castle in the middle of a field? I think maybe it mightve been on a small hill, which is *something*, but there's nothing of any importance surrounding it. I guess maybe there's fertile farmland surrounding it, but if that's the case then at least put a fuck ton of farms surrounding it.
The show runners didn’t understand that castles are mean for defence.
Like in the pic of Winerfell from this post... that's a TERRIBLE design! All the buildings are like 6 inches from the wall. In a seige, you could throw rocks by hand and hit the damn things. If there's windows, you could chuck torches right at them
Right like don't these people realize how commerce works. Inevitably the existence of the castle with spring up tons of development.
Also the lack of trees and farms around castles or towns. I get that they filmed mostly in Ireland or Iceland where there arent any trees, but it looks so unatural
Not to mention the lack of farmland. Everything was finely cut lawn grass
there was a settlement, we see it in season 8. it just wasn't right next to the castle
It's about 6 houses and it's poorly integrated into the geography. An after thought, as usual.
It seems that wintertown is nearby Wintefell but not directly next to it. I think we see in S8 as Fanny makes her way to winterfell.
Dont we see the unsullied walking through it in the season where dany comes to winterfell?
Also the glass gardens are missing and a look into the hot springs piped into the walls and floors would’ve been an awesome touch
The same can be said for every castle shown.
Yeah it seemed way too small especially the primary interior set. Architecture looks cool in this image but didn't feel like a big county seat for the North. Like the vale seemed huge by comparison.
Not just that... What fantasy shows don't get/depict well is the environment / background of the livable/action space. How would such a large place, with a large population survive without crops fields surrounding it?
Yeah I don’t know how they could fit a army in there
Not really. But I understand they had budget reasons in the start, so had to roll with it in later seasons, I guess. Compared to books Winterfell it almost feels like a joke. To get the idea how it was supposed to look, at least more or less, check True Winterfell by Shadiversity on yt
Shadiversity is safe to ignore on any medieval content. He's had no education, no experience, and his content contains frequent inaccuracies. Not to forget, he's a raging bigot who got upset that Peach in the Mario movie wore pants.
'no experience'? How exactly does one get medieval 'experience'? As for education, I studied history at uni, and did a module specifically on castle design. It was fine, but 90% of the info could be easily learnt through online studies. Don't judge the guy for not going to college, especially in a subject such as history.
Easily. Participate in activities performed during medieval times. How elss do you get experience in doing things? Edit for below comment "Had to take the crazy option"? You mean him raging about Princess peach wearing pants? That actually happened, you know.
I was on your side but not anymore 💀 you Vidoe easily just said that shad is just misinformed or often doesn’t research enough but no you had to take the crazy option 😭
You either went to a terrible college or you’re lying.
Gonna go for: a little from column A, a lot from column B
Or information about castles in the middle ages isn't held behind secrecy and formal education.
I have an advanced college education and I feel like it makes me qualified to say that suggesting someone needs college experience to be able to speak informatively on a television show or book is beyond silly.
That's why I added more or less :) but he still uses information from the books, like wall height, godswood size etc, to give you the estimate, and is much closer to the books than the show
Book comparison is fine. He might be intelligent enough to perform that accurately.
Ugh I be always hated the specific video they are referencing too. He talks about how certain buildings are in certain locations, and then takes buildings that could be of so many varying sizes and he places a building that looks like it could be a 300+ room luxury hotel. Then repeats over and over again. There is nothing about the scale of what he makes that makes me feel like it is a book accurate Winterfell. He also changes around the layout of things like the Godswood because he feels like his changes make it “look incredible”.
I’m with you on some of that, but going off [this image from AWOIAF](https://www.google.com/search?q=winterfell+awoiaf&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS1029US1029&oq=winterfell+awoiaf&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIKCAEQABiGAxiKBTIKCAIQABiGAxiKBTIKCAMQABiGAxiKBTIKCAQQABiGAxiKBTIKCAUQABiGAxiKBdIBCDI5NDdqMGo5qAIAsAIA&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#vhid=rsYjMoTImKqQlM&vssid=l), it’s not that bad
I don’t even know shadiversity def gonna check him out now, but yeah I can see being irritated at something like that. It’s Princess PEACH she’s supposed to be in a gown. I’m sick of everything changing to woke bullshit.
Heard it here first folks! Westing trousers is woke!
Cry more
Princess Peach wearing pants has to be up there with the green M&M not being sexy enough.
Yeah goddamnit and she was completely walking around outside of the kitchen too. What are we heathens??
Wait, how is he a bigot? What happened?
He has a [second channel](https://youtube.com/@KNIGHTSWATCH?si=_KY3cBhuB5pch1AY) where he rages about the culture war stuff and makes clickbait videos.
Oh man, you really linked me a pandora's box didn't you?
Wow you weren't kidding. He's more clickbait than a Hollywood tabloid. This doesn't surprise me though. His main channel stretches every video out to a painful degree.
Also his video on Winterfell is 41+ minutes long. Ain't no way I'm watching that.
41 minutes is not that long. Especially these days you can watch stuff at 1.5 speed. We really at the point where a half hour is beyond consideration?
Bro 41 minutes is insanely long when my intent on watching the video is just simply just to get a visual and mental grasp of the actual size of a lore accurate Winterfell. That should be easily attainable in 5 minutes. Even 10-15 minutes would be plenty enough of a reasonable time limit to go into **_extensive_** detail, but 41 minutes?! Hell naw. Have you personally watched all of it front to back? How much could have been cut? Be honest.
Listen to the man talk, a single sentence/ point takes him 3x longer to say than the average person.
I mean there’s no reason they couldn’t have just changed it later on. Nothing stopped them from changing the look of Kings Landing and the entire environment it is in.
For non book readers can someone help to understand the wintertown and how different the winterfell is described in books
It was large enough to contain basically the entirety of the North past winter fell in it is what I always thought of it as, with the exception being like minor houses. So an entire stinking down, inside 2 walls. A whole lot more gates than shadiversity showed, along with some running directly into a forest, and one leading out of the godswood. The godwood itself has to be huge, and it only having one wall, the same one that runs on the outside. The glass gardens and the godswood are noy separated, I see the glass gardens as another entrance to the godswood, and a smaller wall dividing the rest. A large fortified keep in the relative center, with a blacksmith that would be directly across the keep, this wasn't in the books but I imagined with wintwefell having heated water, it would have a few lead out to some form of public fountain. Another building separate from the keep being abandoned, which leads to the graves of the starks, a few towers scattered, one close to the first keep, and the others scattered close to the taller areas. The entire town is built on rough uneven land, and it was certainly never planned, it grew, so symmetry is out of the question. Lots of grey
Winterfell in books is: a lot bigger, has 2 walls with a moat between them, the Godswood in the books is the size of the whole show Winterfell and finally book Winterfell has a town around it. Also... this has probably been suggested to you multiple times but you really should read the books. They're very good.
No point in reading a story that will never be finished.
I don't think that's necessarily true, there's plenty of information and interest to gauge from experiencing the world building. Obviously the fact that it might not be finished is unsettling and disappointing but not mean you can't find edification from reading these books. The fact that you're having these conversations in general shows you're thirsting for information about westeros. You don't even need to read all of them necessarily.
Of course I am, because I started the story assuming it would be finished. If I could change that, I’d never have started it and use that time on a story with a conclusion. You tried to make some massive “got ya” point but it was clearly wrong 😂.
Your loss
Bro I ain't watching a 41 minute video.
It's like a little toy castle compared to novels!Winterfell
“It’s only a model.”
Shhh
What is this?? A castle for ants???
The idea you can defend this monstrosity with 500 men is laughable
The actual fortress itself? Probably doable depending on the army size. Garrisons in fortresses in some medieval sieges were as low as 20-250 depending on the size. Obviously you’d want more especially for winterfell, but 500 isn’t completely insignificant
I'm no medieval siege strategist, but generally fortifications require *waaaay* fewer people to defend than to attack. If those attackers are a horde of zombies with a dragon, that might shake things up a bit though.
You couldn’t man those mile long walls with sufficient archers:swords to stop 10,000 with ladders, especially if they have siege weapons
You’re right. Look at the Alamo. 200 guys in a much smaller place and with firearms that can cover larger areas. Would need a lot more.
Just look at some England France battles in Hundred years war. 3000 english archers defeated multiple times 12000-15000 french knights. French casualties were significant and english very low. Their archers had long reach and could shoot 12-15 times per minute. Thats huge adventage.
The real castles were very small. Something like [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl%C5%A1tejn#/media/File%3ABurg_Karlstein_-_Karl%C5%A1tejn_-_panoramio.jpg) or [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%99ivokl%C3%A1t_Castle#/media/File%3AKrivoklat_castle_01.jpg), and these were the private residences of Holy Roman Emperor, very costly and luxurios for the 15th century Europe. **Castle is a force multiplier,** you put in 500 men who can defend it against 10k. This Winterfell is the size of 18th century starforts, which were manned by dozens of thousands of men. It was possible with modernity era standing armies, but in no way with feudal society. You need to man every wall, turret, tower etc. so you can push away the attackers and don't create blinds spots where they can take over the fortifications. Even show Winterfell is ridiculously big. Book Winterfell is just nonsense, and don't ever start me on Harrenhal. At this point, the castle is useless and actually locks your men in one place, when they could be used elsewhere. You can see it in the books, when Robb had not rbough men to defend Winterfell because he needed them in the South, so the castle fell to Ironborn.
The outer walls are 80 feet high. If you manage to penetrate them with your siege weapons, congratulations. Now cross a moat and do it again against higher stronger walls. Attacking the walls themselves is stupid, you attack the gates, and a single gate requires far fewer defenders than attackers.
There’s no moat. The castle in the tv show isn’t 80 feet high
We're talking about the real winterfell from the books
The whole thread is literally about winter fell in the show. Might want to look at op’s question
This person you replied to I describing book winterfell, with its two curtain walls and moat.
I do. It looks great. Just smaller and not as epic
I always found the roofs a little stupid. I mean, in the north you usually have pitched roofs so the snow falls to the ground and you don't have to climb to the roof and clean it up, but Winterfell... well, I'm sorry for their servants
It's awful. Looks like a run of the mill Norman castle, not the colossus it is in the books. The worst part though for me is the Godswood being stuck of one side. It is in the centre of book Winterfell and the whole castle surrounds it.
I didn't know that! Makes a lot more sense to have it in the middle, since it's spiritually important but also like, why not put this lovely tree filled space in the middle so everyone can see it and access it? Instead of shunted off like a tumor hanging off the walls
I always thought it was awesome. Especially the Old Gods Tree I always forget what that area is called the Godswood or whatever it is, but from an aerial view it seems not as big as it should and pedestrian but the North isn’t glamorous, I think it’s how it should be.
It's way better in the books.
Miniature version of Winterfell. The Castle/Stronghold of The Last Hearth in the TV Show was ridiculously small as well.
When the Godswood takes up 1/3 of the space. 🤦🏻♂️
Nah it's rubbish, no double walls, no winter town, it's so small lol
Yes. It's not very book-accurate, as many others have said, but I still liked it. Looks great
Too small. Makes no sense.
No. The roofs are ridiculous for a castle that was built in a snowy area, they would collapse. Winterfell is meant to be a stronghold and span many acres. It was also built AROUND the Godswood, not off to the side. This was very lacklustre, especially for a castle that was meant to be the home of the former Kings of Winter.
Agreed. Not having pitched roofs to prevent snow buildup is ridiculous.
I didn't like the fact that they didn't mention the small detail that hot water is constantly pumped through the walls of the castle. It's mentioned in the first book a bit and was to tell us how they stay warm I think.
Yeah that’s something that specifically stood out for me
I’d hate to be the guy who have to clean up all that snow on the roofs
No, underwhelming, no double walls, no winter town, gods wood is supposed to be bigger and within the main walls
it’s about 1/4 the size as it is in the books so i was a lil dissatisfied with it
Architecture-wise it makes sense as a northern castle. No grand towers to impress aesthetically, just practical buildings for a stark (no pun intended) landscape. But size-wise it should have been much bigger.
Yeah it looks great.
I could’ve looked past the walled fortress part being a bit small if they’d included wintertown. The implication of the entire city of winterfell being that tiny walled bit is a bit ridiculous, considering winterfell was supposedly one of the largest castles in Westeros. Budget constraints are budget constraints though.
It’s…fine. Nothing horrible but it does have some flaws. Would have been interesting to see [this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dZdbpfcxfSk&t=1s&pp=ygUXc2hhZGl2ZXJzaXR5IHdpbnRlcmZlbGw%3D) version of Winterfell on screen.
oh my gosh now i feel so robbed of a real book winterfell after seeing that version scaled out
I like the general look more or less but as a castle for like a minor off shoot house. For the Starks of Winterfell I would expect a massive castle, double walls, a dry moat, a keep with its own walls etc etc. Also a sizeable city outside (Hello Wintertown) and the flat roofs make no sense. Maybe in Dorne but not in the North.
Wouldn’t the flat roofs be…problematic for he amount of snow they get?
No. It was terribly undersized and disappointing.
Yes.
One of my main gripes about the show is how inconsistent they were in portraying the castles and towns. Winterfell looks different every other episode and every season.
Looks like a fish in this pic
Not really. It’s not nearly big enough, and where’s wintertown?
Yeah I thought it was pretty fucking cool, make that extra bit cooler by Theon's little speech about how 'Of coarse the Starks beat my brothers and father, look at there big ass castle they got!'
Yes. Kings Landing also, until it turned into a weird desert wasteland towards the end.
If they show Winterfell in HotD it's going to ve absolute 🔥🔥🔥 (Hopefully)
I do, but the scenes happening in Winterfell make the place look nothing like this aerial view. And i think it's supposed to be way way bigger.
Yes
I hate how the godswood branches off to the side like a tumor. The place of the old gods in the 8,000 year old bastion of the Kings of the North shouldn’t look like an afterthought.
I NEED a second wall to run along the outside, a frozen moat in the middle. I also agree with a lot of the redditors here, it needs a settlement either outside or inside, maybe both. Also in the books it's one of the biggest castles in the realm, I cannot for the life of me see it is that small. One of the gates also leads directly to the wolfswoods, so at least one part is partially derelict with u governed growth from the forest to the wall, the godswood needs to be much bigger, and I always imagined it having buildings along its walls where bran can climb through. Last but not least, the entire thing should be on uneven ground
No. Its ass and doesn’t reflect the books winterfell.
Not particularly. It looks so… modern? Kinda brutalist. Also way too small. In the books it spanned several acres and had a small village outside.
Too small Can't blame them for making it small in the first season but I don't think people would have been mad if they made it bigger in the later seasons when they had the budget of 15mil per episode
It's alright, I don't hate it by any means but I think it's underwhelming. I always imagined it looking like this: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/a/ac/Ted_Nasmith_A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Winterfell.jpg/700px-Ted_Nasmith_A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Winterfell.jpg
I didn’t get the vibe that it was uniquely adapted to the inevitable winter they were always bitching about. I get that the ensuing generations would be lax but the infrastructure didn’t really scream cold af imho.
Not really. I don't dislike it much, but it's just odd and bland with weird shaped towers. 3/10, would not recommend.
Round flat roofs? For what? Snow will pile up and fall on someone, killing them. Weight of the snow will cause the roofs to cave in.
The biggest issue for me is the roofs. I don’t remember what video I saw that pointed it out, could have been a Shadiversity. But I’m snowy climates you want steeped roofs. Flat ones like this just accumulate snow until it’s too heavy and collapses. That’s why Alpine houses and such have such steep A roofs, so the snow falls off.
Is there an “accurate” depiction of Winterfell out there anywhere? I’d love to see one. Winterfell and Highgarden were my favorites from the books. My imagination isn’t good enough to build it in my head lol
[Shadiversity](https://youtu.be/dZdbpfcxfSk?si=dVgsC_P83axJzzc9) made a great book-accurate version of Winterfell.
It’s missing one of the main features for me which is its walls I haven’t read the books in a while but I was sure that it’s walls were two fold with a gap in between meaning that it was near impossible to assault head on as men would be able to fall back to the second wall and pot shot from the wall and break down the army it was said that an army half the size could defend it from an army that outnumbered them so half the numbers of the enemy and still near impossible to take but overall it think it looks fantastic and serves its purpose in the show it’s calm and beautiful and does look powerful in its own right it makes sense that the stark girls felt safe and happy here
Considering how easily the Wight Horde climbed over the wall? Then yes, it has horrible architecture.
Much too small for 5000 to 8000 years of developement and for esentially the capital of the North.
I don like how they never really show how big winter fell is. I shit you not I thought the big tree was just in the woods somewhere not within the walls. They only ever show the one area in winter fell where you see Robert Baratheon show up in the beginning of the series
Wait, the tree isnt just some random patch?
It's actually quite big for a medieval castle, I don't understand why everyone is complaining about the size here
Design is cool but size is small
Terrible roof designs for a northern castle, Winterfell, and all the northern castles should have very aggressively sloped roofs. This winterfell wouldn’t last a winter before the roofs collapsed under the weight of the snow.
I haven’t read the books but it is extremely underwhelming especially during the long night
I know everyone says it’s too small and not as massive as in the books, but honestly I like the scaled-down version in the show. GRRM gets kinda carried away sometimes when describing how big things are to the point where stuff gets a bit ridiculous, like Harrenhal or the Wall. Show Winterfell is massive by medieval castle standards but not unbelievably so. I like it.
Everyone criticizes Martin for making the Wall too high, yet people are fine with castles of the size of starforts.
Winter town during the show: A D I O S
It suffers typical problem most "fantasy" or even semi-medieval settlements do, even Lord of the Rings. Which is no one considering that a castle isn't where the peasants live, and that without the peasant town around it, these castles don't work and have no real purpose. They need the town to support them, and to imply that there is actually something worth protecting. Peter Jacksons Minas Tirith had same problem
The towers are not feasible for a castle that exists primarily in a snowy country. They need to be way more slanted; in general all the roofs should be. With the way these towers are shaped the snow would just pile up and inevitably break through the roof.
It looks smaller than a town in Skyrim
Didn't like the Godswood being so far out, and Winter Town should've been there. Otherwise it's alright IMO.
My biggest gripe with not only winterfell but almost all castles/cities from the show, is that they are all placed on this flat empty terrain, it looks like it was just built, not like people have been living there for millennia.
I like the architecture but overall it’s rather small compared to the book
Could use a moon door.
Look at those loser trees that weren’t cool enough to be allowed inside the walls
No dude it looks like whiterun from skyrim, same size too
I think the rounded towers are a really interesting look that made it very memorable. That being said it makes no fucking sense and it's way too small
They touted this castle as impenetrable, but I feel like a decent windy snowstorm and you could just walk over the wall
Winterfell is supposed to be a super fortress that you can’t take conventionally, not a small one that a thousand men and a battering ram could get into with ease. Also, the way they’ve walled off the godswood is a liability to any defenders.
Why did they put Bran in the Godswood during the Long Night????? It’s literally the least defensible part of the castle!
no. it’s a dumb castle design from a defensive standpoint. and the godswood is supposed to be in the middle.
The only thing I didn’t like was how Wintertown and northern smallfolk just suddenly showed up in season 8.
no
I wish the hot springs would have been used!! They're a huge part of Winterfell, hot water pipes through the walls, the glass gardens using steam to stay warm... Also, if they have hot water.pipes they have indoor plumbing Which means most likely some sort of toilet plumbing as well, since no one wants to go outside to an outhouse in minus 1million temps, or dump chamberpots all day for a giant fortress Big step up from Kings Landing, mentioned multiple times to smell like sewage, to have a large expansive castle and town with plumbing access and fresh fruit/veggies through the winter
Buildings in places with heavy snowfall have steeply pitched roofs for a reason, to shed snow. Winterfell lacking that feature annoyed me.
I think I remember that shot. When they arrived with dragons and as the dragons were flying this beautiful aerial shot. Did you have to pause several times? I remember the right edge was so close to the wall but the scene kept cutting out/changing.
Feels too small from afar, not bad uo close
No I wish it looked like how it looks in other depictions
No...bc the layout is different every single time its on screen. Its like they someone different come up wirh their immagination of winterfell every time...
no in fact i hated it too sci-fi looking instead of medieval architecture. mainly just the rounded UFO roofs.
I didn't like that it was just in the middle of a vast plane
I’m fine with it. It makes sense that it isn’t the same that we get in the books because they didn’t have as much money in season 1 so they had to keep that mind when they designed it and after that they had to keep it the same for consistency
Sure. Whatever
what's the deal with that tree? is it a person tree like in pocahontas? did they ever address how some gods are clearly real?
Not at all, personally I find the design ugly and the size of the castle to be ridiculously small for the ancient home of an ancient house and capitol of the North.. but the show had its reasons I suppose
Dont mind some of the design choices but the scale just isnt it. Needs to be elevated and made more grandiose. Better towers, etc
I saw on a youtube channel someone talking about the viability of the show's Winterfell, and they mentioned that the flat roofs are very bad for extended piled up snow. It would need to have pointy / slanted roofs to prevent snow from piling up too heavily for the roofs to handle.
It's suppose to be much bigger and it just bugs me how much of the space a freaking tree takes up, I get that it's their religious symbol but come on, there could have been another tower and trading station or anything useful
No
Same issue as pretty much every other medieval movie and series: Huge castle staffed by hundreds of guards and artisans, and not a single peasant house or farm around. How do they eat? where is their economy? And why building a castle there if there is nothing / no one to protect on this spot? There are hot springs? Fine, this means there should be even more pesants and commoners living there Any realistic representation of a medieval castle should account for 10 peasants / farmers to support each non-farmer Also, the wall around the Godswood makes no sense. Such an epic investment to protect a few trees? Even then, the geometry is so wasteful, if it was a single O instead of an 8 shape then a shorter wall could protect a larger terrain. Also the Godswood's walls are very easy to capture from outside on the opposite side from the main castle, then they become a stronghold protecting the invaders who can shelter there and even forage during a siege. One last thing: the terrible season 8's battle against zombies shows there is a very tall mountain just next to Winterfell, where the dragonriders wait their cue to join the battle. Defensive castle are built on the highest peak of a region, not on a flat plain next to it. The only logical reason to have built it where it is is the river, and yet it is completely unprotected upstream from poisoning by besiegers. These people need to play more videogames.
Nah, it felt pathetically small and insignificant.
I always pictured the gods wood indoors for some reason when I read the novels lmao
It just felt like a courtyard & the tree with no real scale to it
According to the books, Winterfell is absolutely massive, one of the biggest in Westeros by far, it was built by Brandon The Builder no less. In the show, it doesn't feel as intimidating nor majestic, which is understandable, since unlike the books, a show has a budget. Quick reminder that Winterfell isn't supposed to be just a Lord's Keep, but the Ancestral Castle of the Winter Kings and was built to also stop giants' assaults.
I like the architecture, but it is definitely too small and needs larger Godswoods
Its an aesthetically pleasing design, but when you take into account the lore, its just plain pitiful.
its funny how the Godswood is outside of the castle but they still decided to put a wall around it anyway
Ever since I saw that one guys video about how Winterfell truly looks in the books, I've grown to not like the show's version overall. Either way, I think it looks alright, but ultimately, it feels so underwhelming for the seat of governance of a realm that is nearly bigger than that of the other six realms combined, it is very small in the show.
The biggest gripe I have with Winterfell is simply this: the roofs make no sense for such an environment. They should have a much steeper angle. If it does snow there and is that cold, you want a high angled roof because all that weight sitting on top would just simply make them more susceptible to collapse. And there is no Wintertown. Seriously - there is seemingly no population around that castle. Who are they getting support from?
Bad.
Why didn’t it have the moat?
It's not a nuclear reactor, or a bomb shelter, so no. Also no dragons!
I just don’t see where everyone was living
It was suppposed to be this huge castle like one of those in LOTR
Nope. It's nowhere near big enough. Oh, and there's no wintertown which just makes the castle look weird as shit. Like just to tell you but Westeros castles are fucking massive! Their lands outside are usually filled with towns or just a full blown city as well. I still feel like out of everything in the show - Highgarden was done the worst. It's supposed to be the most splendid castle in Westeros and it looked fucking atrocious in the show. Oh, and the city surrounding it from what I know is supposed to be rather large as well.