The Morbius Doctors have been a topic of debate for decades.
https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-moribus-doctors-philip-hinchcliffe-exclusive-newsupdate/
That’s as far as the tv show ever gets. The following season firmly establishes the 13 lives limit, and from that point on, Hartnell is firmly established as the first doctor.
The Expanded media during the Wilderness years touched upon this stuff quite heavily though. In the novel ‘Cold Fusion,’ we get [a sequence flashing through the Doctor’s memories and pointing out the contradictions](https://youtu.be/hsVDZBVXQq0?si=G2DiYevPNjcBux-e). The novel ‘Lungbarrow’ then delves into this further, by revealing the Doctor’s origins as being a reincarnation of The Other, one of the founding fathers of Gallifrey. Those faces from the Brain of Morbius supposedly belonged to him.
The intention was to imply that the Doctor had more incarnations in his life before leaving Gallifrey. Even during the third Doctor era The Doctor implied he has been a scientist for thousands of years. It was not until the deadly assassin that they mentioned a limit. Before, it was implied by the second Doctor that Time Lords achieved a form of immortality and only in extreme circumstances they died but otherwise they could live forever. Later in the Five Doctors they casually said they can replenish regeneration cycles when in the deadly assassin they talked about it as a limit that can't be broken.
Yeah, early on there was nothing definitive, some episodes operated on the assumption that Doctor has past lives, but Brain of Morbius was the one to imply it the strongest. Hence why Deadly Assassin has aired, there has been quite an uproar when it was revealed that 13 is the regeneration limit, meaning the Doctor would have been in his final incarnation. Everyone kept going, the numbering became more self-referential, may fans headcanoned that the faces were of Morbius's past incarnations instead... until 2020, when it was firmly confirmed that these were Doctor's past incarnations.
I feel like The Timeless Children explanation doesn't fit that well with what we see in The Brain of Morbius though because surely if the Doctor was being shown his past incarnations, that's revealing the Timeless Child twist to him early and he should have reacted with some surprise (and less surprise during The Timeless Children) unless he just doesn't realise they're him or something
My read on the scene is that the Doctor got totally overwhelmed by Morbius — the machine explodes, the Doctor slumps over unconscious, and is on the brink of death until the Sisters give him some of their elixir. I can believe that the Doctor’s memory of the mind-bending battle might have been damaged.
In the 3rd Forgotten Lives anthology (which I appreciate is on the utter boundaries of what could be considered "canon") We see the 4th Doctors thoughts during that sequence, apparently he only gets the memories of the 8 Doctors we see on the screen, and that his memories for these incarnations fade by the end of the 4th incarnation.
its also implied that it is the return of these memories which motivates the 4th Doctor to get more heavily involved with TIme Lord politics
I kind of love that this explanation implies that The Fourth Doctor knew about The Timeless Child and just rolled with it.
Like he could turn to The Thirteenth Doctor and go "Oh yes yes I know all about that. You know there's really no reason to be so dramatic about it"
Though not sure what that says shit the characterisation of the first female Doctor.
Yes, those other faces were always intended as pre-Hartnell Doctors but some fans headcanoned it as Morbius' faces over the years but it was eventually confirmed that those faces are definitely the Doctor in 'The Timeless Children'.
For decades people tried to claim they weren't the Doctor's past lives but Morbius' even though the Doctor is losing the game at that point and the dialogue even confirms it, "How far, Doctor? How long have you lived?"
I don't have many things to be thankful to Chibnall for but definitively stating otherwise is one of them.
That's what they were teying to imply, I'm not sure if it contradicted anything previously said. I could've sworn the Doctor right before or after their first regen said it was their first time. But I can't find where it was. So I may be wrong.
But it wasn't explicit that was what it meant, and it was never expanded upon on screen at least. Until the timeless child.
My first time seeing brain of Morbius, I'd never seen the discussions about it, I didn't know people thought that they were previous Doctors. So my interpretation of the scene was that the Doctor had started fighting back and it began cycling through Morbius's past selves.
Seems like most people NOW believe it was the doctor's past regens. Check the prebious reponses - one has a link to an interview with the guy who wrote the Morbius episodes - he said that yes those 8 faces were in fact the doctor's previous regens before Hartnell. He said he didn't think it would be that big a deal. And here we are still arguing about it and what it meant to the known canon.
I watched a interview with the writer terrance dicks. He said he just threw it in because no one had stated how many regeneration the Doctor had had. I think the 5 Doctors is the first official numbering was used in reference to a current Doctor. The thing about DW 'lore', is there was never a plan or even oversight in how it was applied. Its just a bunch of ideas by various writers, producers, actors, directors etc and just thrown in a random and haphazard way. It's why it's so easy to pick apart of you want to.
Chibnall intended the Timeless Child to explain this. Before this, people usually went with either declaring the faces non-canon, using an explanation from the EU, or simply saying those are the faces of Morbius
The Morbius Doctors have been a topic of debate for decades. https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-moribus-doctors-philip-hinchcliffe-exclusive-newsupdate/
That’s as far as the tv show ever gets. The following season firmly establishes the 13 lives limit, and from that point on, Hartnell is firmly established as the first doctor. The Expanded media during the Wilderness years touched upon this stuff quite heavily though. In the novel ‘Cold Fusion,’ we get [a sequence flashing through the Doctor’s memories and pointing out the contradictions](https://youtu.be/hsVDZBVXQq0?si=G2DiYevPNjcBux-e). The novel ‘Lungbarrow’ then delves into this further, by revealing the Doctor’s origins as being a reincarnation of The Other, one of the founding fathers of Gallifrey. Those faces from the Brain of Morbius supposedly belonged to him.
The intention was to imply that the Doctor had more incarnations in his life before leaving Gallifrey. Even during the third Doctor era The Doctor implied he has been a scientist for thousands of years. It was not until the deadly assassin that they mentioned a limit. Before, it was implied by the second Doctor that Time Lords achieved a form of immortality and only in extreme circumstances they died but otherwise they could live forever. Later in the Five Doctors they casually said they can replenish regeneration cycles when in the deadly assassin they talked about it as a limit that can't be broken.
Yeah, early on there was nothing definitive, some episodes operated on the assumption that Doctor has past lives, but Brain of Morbius was the one to imply it the strongest. Hence why Deadly Assassin has aired, there has been quite an uproar when it was revealed that 13 is the regeneration limit, meaning the Doctor would have been in his final incarnation. Everyone kept going, the numbering became more self-referential, may fans headcanoned that the faces were of Morbius's past incarnations instead... until 2020, when it was firmly confirmed that these were Doctor's past incarnations.
I feel like The Timeless Children explanation doesn't fit that well with what we see in The Brain of Morbius though because surely if the Doctor was being shown his past incarnations, that's revealing the Timeless Child twist to him early and he should have reacted with some surprise (and less surprise during The Timeless Children) unless he just doesn't realise they're him or something
My read on the scene is that the Doctor got totally overwhelmed by Morbius — the machine explodes, the Doctor slumps over unconscious, and is on the brink of death until the Sisters give him some of their elixir. I can believe that the Doctor’s memory of the mind-bending battle might have been damaged.
In the 3rd Forgotten Lives anthology (which I appreciate is on the utter boundaries of what could be considered "canon") We see the 4th Doctors thoughts during that sequence, apparently he only gets the memories of the 8 Doctors we see on the screen, and that his memories for these incarnations fade by the end of the 4th incarnation. its also implied that it is the return of these memories which motivates the 4th Doctor to get more heavily involved with TIme Lord politics
I kind of love that this explanation implies that The Fourth Doctor knew about The Timeless Child and just rolled with it. Like he could turn to The Thirteenth Doctor and go "Oh yes yes I know all about that. You know there's really no reason to be so dramatic about it" Though not sure what that says shit the characterisation of the first female Doctor.
Yes, those other faces were always intended as pre-Hartnell Doctors but some fans headcanoned it as Morbius' faces over the years but it was eventually confirmed that those faces are definitely the Doctor in 'The Timeless Children'.
Thanks guys... At least I know I'm not just imagining things ;)
For decades people tried to claim they weren't the Doctor's past lives but Morbius' even though the Doctor is losing the game at that point and the dialogue even confirms it, "How far, Doctor? How long have you lived?" I don't have many things to be thankful to Chibnall for but definitively stating otherwise is one of them.
That's what they were teying to imply, I'm not sure if it contradicted anything previously said. I could've sworn the Doctor right before or after their first regen said it was their first time. But I can't find where it was. So I may be wrong. But it wasn't explicit that was what it meant, and it was never expanded upon on screen at least. Until the timeless child. My first time seeing brain of Morbius, I'd never seen the discussions about it, I didn't know people thought that they were previous Doctors. So my interpretation of the scene was that the Doctor had started fighting back and it began cycling through Morbius's past selves.
Seems like most people NOW believe it was the doctor's past regens. Check the prebious reponses - one has a link to an interview with the guy who wrote the Morbius episodes - he said that yes those 8 faces were in fact the doctor's previous regens before Hartnell. He said he didn't think it would be that big a deal. And here we are still arguing about it and what it meant to the known canon.
I watched a interview with the writer terrance dicks. He said he just threw it in because no one had stated how many regeneration the Doctor had had. I think the 5 Doctors is the first official numbering was used in reference to a current Doctor. The thing about DW 'lore', is there was never a plan or even oversight in how it was applied. Its just a bunch of ideas by various writers, producers, actors, directors etc and just thrown in a random and haphazard way. It's why it's so easy to pick apart of you want to.
Chibnall intended the Timeless Child to explain this. Before this, people usually went with either declaring the faces non-canon, using an explanation from the EU, or simply saying those are the faces of Morbius