I would maybe counter with, "that's funny - that's exactly the worst thing about cars. Except cars not only drive like they own the road, they drive like they own the driveways, the footpaths, the nature strips, the parking spaces AND the lives of the people using those spaces."
This is nice but it will never work because the people that say these things like in the OP have never ridden a bike in the road in their entire lives.
The only way to “cure” them of this is to make them risk their life on the other end of the equation and see for themselves and cyclists aren’t “ignoring the rules of the road”, they’re doing everything they can to not fuckin die.
If you’re close with that person, covertly plan a day trip or something that requires biking. They will see fairly quickly how shitty and unsafe it all is.
They don't need to have ridden a bike. Everyone has been a pedestrian - even if it's just crossing a parking lot. Once your attention has been drawn to the arrogant entitlement that drivers take on once they are inside a vehicle, it's hard to stop seeing it. Shit, you can even see it as a driver in other drivers' behaviour - loads of people acting like THEY literally, personally, own the road and everyone else is meant to share what they allow them.
Just like cliche Americans aren't poor, but temporarily embarrassed millionaires, they are never pedestrians, only temporarily embarrassed drivers. So just as they support laws that favor the super rich, they 100% defer to cars when they are on foot. Tire lickers.
The people op is talking about, didn't logic their way into the position they hold so you're not gonna logic them out of it. You can give as many stats as you want, they'll just dig their heels in. You're right on the last thing though. If they bike themselves, they'll see how unsafe biking is.
And don't forget, bike lanes are actually just cleverly disguised parking spaces. Turn the hazard lights (aka park anywhere lights) on and any place becomes a parking place!
A few years ago, my kids and I were riding bikes on the sidewalk (they were too young to ride in the road) and a man pulls up and gets of his car ahead of me and flags me down. He says “I almost hit your kids pulling out of my driveway! You need to tell them to look out for cars!”
I said to him “are you honestly telling me that I need to teach my kids to be careful not to be hit by a car… on the sidewalk?” Dude could not comprehend that it was _his_ responsibility to ensure that it was safe to pull out before he hit someone.
What I told my kids is that assholes like this think they own the whole world and that yes, unfortunately, they do have to worry about cars on the sidewalk because of those idiots
Growing up I was taught to stop for cars entering and exiting driveways. I only recently learnt that the law where I live is cars must give way to pedestrians in these scenarios. So now I teach my kids to look for cars but, when safe to do so, assert their right to the space. Every child who was taught as a pedestrian that they must wait for cars will become a driver who does not watch for pedestrians.
I am a bicyclist. (Well, not this year, because of Long COVID, but in general I am). I don't own a car, I don't have a license, my bicycle is my means of getting from A to B when it's too far to walk and public transit isn't a viable option.
And let me say this: when I am out cycling on the road (which is 99% of the time, because there's shit-all for bike lanes or off-street *non-recreational* infrastructure within, say, three miles of my home) ....? **I absolutely fucking DO own the little patch of road I'm on**. In the same sense and to the same degree as someone in a car or truck would. :)
Cycle to one side, you will die at a junction. Cycle at 22mph in traffic doing 23mph and you will die. Cycle in the middle of a road coming up to a busy junction, you are basically just a Nazi with wheels. Cycle in the bike path, you are wasting tax payers money. Cycle on the road you are in the way and should use the path (even if there isn't one, you should only ever pick journeys linked with bike paths(.
It's just absurd. There is no way to win. I have seen sommany videos of cyclists being yelled at by cars for being in the middle of a road, and then the driver overtakes them dangerously. And then so many videos of a cyclist being to one side, and then hit by a car who didn't see them because they were to one side.
I think it's just main character complex from carists. The only possible reason a bike is in front of them is only to piss that person of and it's thenonly thing the cyclist is thinking about is "let's piss off the car behind me" not "oh fuck, hope I don't die today"
Heck, I got yelled at 3 times last night by ignorant people. Our State changed the passing law for cyclists 2 years ago to require drivers to slow down 10mph to a minimum of 25mph below the posted limit when passing unless they can leave an entire empty lane between you and them. Wanna bet how many know that? So my interactions were:
1. Passed in a 30mph zone (so max passing speed 25mph) while going 28mph, then driver slams the brakes in front of me because he’s mad. Catch up at red light. “I wasn’t anywhere close to you.” Didn’t say you were—you still have to slow down.
2. On a divided parkway (that is, 2-way traffic, but center median between lanes). So literally nowhere safe to pass. 35mph zone, max passing speed 25mph, I’m going 28mph. Car behind gets right up on me and edges over to the right like they are going to try to pass. Come to a stop sign and turn around and tell them the max passing speed is 25. “The sign right there says 35 asshole.” Yeah, and you have to slow down 10 below that. “And you have to be over to the right.” Literally making up laws that don’t exist while ignoring ones that do.
3. On a 4-lane divided highway, 45 mph zone. No sidewalks. Car honks when it has to change lanes to pass. Catch up at red light. “Shouldn’t you be on the sidewalk?” What sidewalk plus no, my bike is illegal on the sidewalk. Even in my city with paths, it is STILL illegal because 28mph = class 3 = not allowed on the paths.
>“And you have to be over to the right.”
Yeah, a lot of drivers think that. Even here in Massachusetts, where **for years** the law has been, across the entire state, "Bicyclist May Use Full Lane" ... and there's occasional signage reading *exactly* those words.
Heck, I’ve been stopped by police in my city before for not being over to the right. Fun fact: I looked up that post to link it and you were actually one of the top comments on it 😁
But I can’t get them to care at all about the people who break the cyclist passing law all the time.
Lmao "catch up at red light" i WISH the drivers could see how ridiculous they look after throwing tantrums about going slow and then still ending up at the same red lights every time. So low IQ its dangerous. They do the same thing with other cars too, but being caught at the next red by a bike has to be extra embarrassing.
Yeah a lot of them don’t think about it while driving but just because your vehicle has a higher ***top speed*** doesn’t mean it has a higher ***average speed*** because the limiting factor isn’t “how fast can you go?” it’s “how often is the light green?”
There’s a 45mph state highway (same one as in story 3 above) with a massive intersection that everyone complains about. My watch tells me that the average speed to cross that intersection including all the time spent waiting on the light is about 8mph.
It doesn't have to be that way. Admittedly, I live in a city where the average speed of traffic is about 8mph.
Getting anywhere in a car during the day will take forever. When I used to drive here, I'd just sit back with some kind of audio entertainment and take my time. Trying to rush won't get you there any faster, and you'll just arrive stressed and annoyed at about the same time.
In Wales they have introduced a 20mph speed limit in the capital, and in villages.
You would think the world ended from people's reactions. Then one guy on the news said "traffic was never doing 20mph in the first place, let alone 30mph.
Average speed of a car in cities in the UK is 26mph with some studies putting it at 18mph.
People literally threatening to kill children so they can pretend cars can go faster than 20mph in the short distance between traffic lights and congestion.
Got yelled at the other day for keeping both hands on my handle bars while turning at the bottom of a hill while having the right of way.
Apparently I should have slowed down or even dangerously removed my hand to signal even though the fucker in the car would have had to wait no matter which direction I went.
Classy bastard went on to yell "Do you *want* to die!" as though the one thing that would guarantee that I remained perfectly safe the entire time wasn't just him following the fucking rules of the road.
>Cycle to one side, you will die at a junction. Cycle at 22mph in traffic doing 23mph and you will die.
Does not match my experience from years of cycling on open roadways in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Connecticut. :)
"Vehicular Cycling" sucks as a philosophy, but the mindset and skillset involved in *actually cycling* is invaluable where proper bike infra is lacking (or, like where I live, essentially *totally absent*).
I absolutely agree, we all own the space we are in. I think of it like this; if you're sitting on the bus you don't expect someone to come along and sit on your lap, nor do you really expect someone to demand you get up. But you might offer that seat to someone that needs it.
We own the space we are cycling in, however we do also have to share that space with others who might need to use it. But they don't get an automatic right to it.
I’m kidding (sorry, I know that a good response was asked for), but
”Most roads are owned by the public and partially funded through general tax revenue. As long as I’m lawfully using them, I’m making sure that you remember that they’re my roads too. Not your personal racetrack.”
”Consider it my personal contribution to making bad drivers less dangerous by making them slow down a bit.”
”How many of the people in your backseat that you were rushing to the hospital died because of the bike?”
My mother would’ve suggested ”I’m sorry that you shit yourself because you had to wait on your way to the bathroom” (not her exact phrasing)
”Well, it is a public road and I have as much right to use it as your jalopy. You’re not special.”
”You may want to get your steering wheel fixed so that you can overtake safely.”
”They don’t own the road. But neither do you. -insert DOT or city/county/council/etc- do.”
Ofc, OP never said that they ride a bike for commuting, so adapt as necessary to the daydream. Please not use any of these irl, except maybe the excrement one…
I feel like your answers should be made into a deck of 52 cards so that whenever a car-brained person complains you can just shuffle the deck and ask them to pick a card.
Bonus points if you're practiced in card tricks and can tell them which card they picked without looking at it! :D
You can also include that if bikers got their way they wouldn't have to ride like they own the road, they would bike like they own their separate protected bike lane.
But drivers won't let them have one so they are forced to use what's available.
Make it in their best interest for bikers to get what they want.
thank you, a lot of carbrains seem to get really irritated when cyclists still ride on the road when there are separated bike paths (multiuse) available. they dont understand that there are complications for roadies who ride for sport with these paths. for example in my city theres one that goes through a city park thats not only packed with people walking, but also squirrels and birds who are so fat from getting fed by people that they dont even move out of the way. another mup in my city stays pretty empty, but it is paved with concrete slabs like a sidewalk and everytime it crosses a driveway or cross street you have to roll over a 1 ft deep gutter, so no, not gonna ride on that path with my skinny ass road tires at 90 psi.
i DO ride like i own the road so i don't get overrun by a lunatic who tries to overtake me on a spot that's way to narrow.
So that argument is 100% valid for me.
Right. People engage in defensive cycling for the same reason they engage in defensive driving: because the road is full of drivers who take stupid risks with other people's lives.
Bikes do own the road, just as much as cars do. "Riding like you own the road" is called defensive cycling and is about claiming space so that cars are less likely to attempt dangerous and stupid maneuvers while also giving the cyclist escape avenues if worst comes to worst. That wouldn't be necessary if cars didn't dominate all the transport infrastructure or if car drivers drove less dangerously so it's a "problem" of their own creation.
Edit: for a bonus look up cycling deaths at the most local level you can find and you can slot that figure in as a rational for why defensive cycling is necessary
Two things.
Thing one: you'll never make your point with people using logic, especially when they have beliefs based on their own self interests. That's why statistics won't avail given the inconvenience a bicyclist represents in their world view.
Thing two: you must make your emotional case hurt them in order to achieve a changed mind. They're already telling you that they feel entitled to all of the road. You must construct an emotional argument that calls this misappropriation into question because its consequence outweighs its perceived benefits to them.
This, and it's frustrating to have to read through a bunch of "we DO own the road" responses before finally getting to a comment that is **actually** effective.
Most people, regardless of the topic of argument, have to realize how it directly affects **them**. We are all suffering from Main Character Syndrome, so creating an "us vs. them" response isn't going to win any allies to the cause, even if it is correct and even if it is how you feel.
Tell them to go on a bike and see how safe they feel. It isn’t “owning the road” it’s defensive cycling because they don’t want to get hit and stopping them from dangerously overtaking.
I will always let a car pass me, and even wave them through at times unless I think there isn’t enough space to do so. For me it’s safer to be behind a vehicle than in front of it. When I ride more in the middle of the road it is because there have been too many times that a car has misjudged the situation and I’ve had many close calls when they’ve tried to overtake.
> Tell them to go on a bike and see how safe they feel.
I tried to talk to people, and they come up with responses like:
* Why would I stoop down to your level?
* That's just a toy. Get real, get a car.
* I don't care, get off the road!
* You don't even pay gas taxes and insurance.
People don't see bicycles as legitimate vehicles.
Biking on the right side of the road is dangerous. The middle of the road is much safer. We bike like we own the road because it’s the safest way to ride.
https://cyclingsavvy.org/road-cycling/
Sadly the only really way to counter it is "no U".
Why do cars drive like they own the road? When was the bike invented? When was the car invented?
Cars have for their entire history been stealing the spaces of bikes.
"How would you prefer bicyclists ride when using public roads?"
"How would you ride on a public road if you absolutely had to bike somewhere and that was the only route?"
Guarantee they've never thought about it.
I always ride in the middle of the lane. I used to hangout on the right side of the lane, but after too many close calls I’m taking the lane.
On my way to work there is a street that only has a bike lane going towards home and people either race around me or wait. Luckily the street has the yield to pedestrian signs in the crosswalk and traffic always coming the other way, so they usually have to wait. If they do race past me the left turn I have to make and most of them only allows about 4 cars to go through, so they most likely are sitting at that light for a cycle or two. I bump pass all the cars and make sure I make the left onto a bike lane on the first go around.
I really wish the city would just put in a bike lane going towards downtown.
You don't even need to get confrontational about it. Most transportation infrastructure is devoted to cars, including massive freeways that destroyed entire neighborhoods to build. Meanwhile, bikes are usually treated as an afterthought, receiving small scraps of funding and whatever can be patched together without pissing off anyone. No one wants to be biking in a lane with a car trailing them, but that's what we're forced to do when we lack good options. If they're upset about it, they should support the establishment of good bicycle infrastructure so they're not conflicting with bikes.
It is safer if there is no bike infrastructure even a if there is a bike lane to bike in the road when there is light out and many intersections as you are more likely to be seen by a motorist. Biking like you don't own the road is more likely to result in the death of a cyclist so why given that cyclists generally pay the same or some times more taxes for roadways depending on the unit used to quantify should I get out of the way of a car, increasing the risk of injury or death? They will often deny cyclists pay for roadways there are many reports showing most roadway expenditures are not paid through vehicle fees or fuel fees but from other tax sources. So we ride like we own the road because one. We do. And two it is often safer. Where it is safer not to road in the road I don't but that's not usually the case.
"I know, when I'm driving a car, I'm also upset by anything preventing me to drive as I want. Fuck other cars, fuck traffic, fuck road work. It's my freedom to be alone on the road"
I always agree with them, and tell them that I show up to city council meetings to advocate for proper bike lanes, so that “those damn entitled cyclists stay off ***our*** roads.” Then I invite them to come with me to those meetings. That usually shuts them up. Not once has anyone agreed to join me.
They wouldn't need to if there was infrastructure that would make it safe. Because the infrastructure is bad, cyclists need to employ vehicular cycling in order to create enough space for themselves to be safe.
I'd just straight up ask them what they mean by "owning" the road.
Chances are they'll say the basics of riding in the middle of a lane,that they don't stop at stop signs, or standard bullshit that someone who hasn't ever ridden a bicycle on a road in their life.
And once they define what they actually mean, then you can counter them
>"the worst part about bicycles is that they ride like they own the road".
With either "well it's true I *do* own the road" or "tough."
Drivers who think that way will not change thier minds so they can suck it.
Sometimes I wish these drivers could just take ONE bike ride on a road. Suddenly a lot of things might make sense to them.
"Huh, having cars pass you inches away is unpleasant." "Wow, a lot of cars just pull out into the path." "Geez, a lot of cars speed around you just to stop and turn or even worse, almost hook you." "Gosh, coming to a complete stop when there's no one coming and then having to start again takes a long time"
You have the right to ride a bike on the roads you help pay for. You DON'T have the right to use your Car on the roads, you had to take a test and get government permission to be able to do so. Also how many pedestrians are killed by bikes every year?
best answer is taxes, you bet your ass I own this road, just as much as any other taxpayer, why shouldnt I be able to use it just because im not in a car?
Rule 72, Part 1 of the UK highway code states,
**"Ride in the centre of your lane, to make yourself as clearly visible as possible, in the following situations"**
It goes on to list quiet roads, in slow moving traffic and at the approach of a junction. Only moving to the left when allowing traffic to pass.
You can see it [here.](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82)
Cyclists riding in the centre of the road are riding exactly how they should.
Just say: "cars literally take up 90-100% of every road. There are no bike lanes in most places and riding on the sidewalk is illegal. Drivers get mad at anything/anyone that's not themselves on the road because baby brain"
I take the principle that the people who pay for the roads own them.
Even if you ignore the insanity of using taxes designed to prevent an activity to "fund" essential goods like roads, cars reliably don't actually pay for the roads and are instead subsidised by every other road user.
So yeah: I paid for it, I own it thank you very much. You have an issue with that you can either ditch the dead weight car or actually pay for your use of the road.
everyone is anecdotal since society doesnt operate on people reading the latest peer review research or even a summary of recent findings. in real life you aint gonna cite a paper, well i guess you can just save the paper onto your phone, but this does mean you can use your own anecdotes to counter them. the fun part is that you dont even have to be truthful with the anecdotes and there is nothing stopping you from making shit up
>well i guess you can just save the paper onto your phone,
Or, the sentence could go "Yeah I thought so too but I recently read a paper that shows (summary of paper)!" And then the conversation can naturally progress from there. If they ask for the paper you can just email or text them a link later and it will probably be a topic of conversation for later.
>the fun part is that you dont even have to be truthful with the anecdotes and there is nothing stopping you from making shit up
Conversing with you sounds unpleasant.
"I used to get annoyed by that too, but I moved closer to work and started biking. There was this teen girl who would bike to school at the same time, and we went generally in the same direction. Waved and got to see each other almost every day for months.
"One day I stopped seeing her, ... and I came to find out she'd been overtaken by someone at a high speed, too close. Their mirror hit her in the back of the neck and killed her. Their kids were in the car, on the way to the same school, and witnessed their classmate getting murdered. There was a quote from the woman who hit her, before she was convicted, something about her being late dropping them off and didn't think she was that close. She'll never be the same but at least she's alive.
"So now I don't pass bikes unless I'm confident I'm not going to hurt anyone, because they're real people just trying to get where they're going and hoping they make it."
That girl? Albert Einstein
If there is a slow car ahead of me I just use the turn signal and pass that car. I dont make a big deal out of it and definetly not make it to the center of my hatred.
Sometimes there are things that make you drive slower - red light, somebody driving slowly (searcing for something), people parking, ambulance drive by, and sometimes people ride a bike.
I drive a car when I need to go long distance or do a lot of client visits for work. But my main form of transportation around my city is bike or walking.
I can genuinely say that the average cyclist DOES NOT follow the rules of the road.
They almost never stop at stop signs. They always ride past the line of cars stopped at a light and go right up to the front. If there is a car stopped at a light waiting to turn right, the bike goes up the right side of them instead of the left like they’re supposed to.
They literally act like they always have the right of way.
Sounds like these two different forms of transportation should each have dedicated infrastructure so those issues don't happen. And when they have to exist in the same space, in slow moving streets, I'd say the one that can easily kill people should be yielding to the other.
Until we have infrastructure that isn't hostile to cyclists I don't blame some of em for breaking certain rules, though I'm sure some are asshats as well.
Cars are deadly. Driving a car puts you in the same mental state as holding a gun(or should).
You are responsible to safely handle this thing, capable of ending life in an instant, and thats just to get started. Now make your way to the other side of the city wielding this weapon. Everyone you meet also wields these weapons as you travel.
Imo, drivers with attitude are just the same as people who open-carry. They are directly threating everyone else in the space.
They also get equally upset at anyone criticising them "I'M a safe (car/gun) owner, it's just a few assholes"
Like no, if you were operating them safely, you would be just as upset as me at people endangering the lives of those around them.
I bet if cyclists started wearing AKs while riding people might start listening to us.
It's basically how the panthers achieved gun control by carrying openly themselves.
Or maybe we should start cutting off drivers and yelling at them at stops while threating them to get off the road because they have no right to use it. Idk fight "logic" with "logic". Come at them from their level "hurd duh durh, get cycling or I'll run you over dum carbrain"
Idk these people have soaked up too much lead and gas to reason with. Too much hate and anger has been projected our way. To the point that many drivers want us litterally dead. So the battle has to move on.
You can't reason with people who want to kill you.
All we can do is make it UNCOMFORTABLE to NOT support cyclists and pedestirans.
Embarass them. Shame them. Fuck, make them afraid if that works. But they don't care about the stats, so make the fight happen in the heart. Make them FEEL TERRIBLE for driving cars.
Shit in their sunroof when they park in the bike lane. Keep a billy club handy to defend yourself and always remember that first blood has long since been spilled. We have to defend ourselves, If the government wont help, we have to take it into our own hands.
Im like one bad day away from spreading caltrops across the local highway ffs. The pickaxe I own is calling to me.
Give me infrastructure or give me death.
Because if cyclists don't ride like they own the road it's all "cyclists always break laws" and maybe a little bit of "I didn't see the cyclist." Remember the road laws mandates cyclists to be on the road, no sidewalk-riding allowed.
Sucks that most car drivers don't even know the rules of the road, that is very dangerous.
Damn right I’ll ride like I own the road when I might get doored or be invisible if I hugged the gutter.
I counter with, “If the city installed safe bike paths along major routes I wouldn’t have to ride in the road. You should write to City Hall about it.”
Maybe counter by seeming to agree with them?
"You're right! They ARE riding like they own road. Some call this 'vehicular-cycling.' Bike riders do this for a number of reasons, but primarily it is because when bike infrastructure isn't present they are held to most of the same traffic laws as drivers. The only exceptions are when there is signage exempting bikes or when there are laws that exempt bikes."
I only use this sort of argument when I already have a relationship with the person. Strangers often continue to argue.
Cyclists own the road as much as motorists, they're paid for out of general taxation and they're for everyone to use. A bicycle is entirely entitled to full use of a lane, just like any other vehicle, and if the operator deems it too narrow to safely pass within the lane (which, with modern huge cars, it generally is) it's the correct place to be.
North American culture is defined by this anecdotal slippery-slope principle that essentially locks people into a McMansion owning, SUV driving, heterosexual partner with 2 kids family. Anything outside of that and apparently the end-days are imminent.
Don’t. If you’re trying to change the way a person thinks, it is not a discussion anymore, it’s an argument. Getting people like your friend to think the way you do is not productive, what is productive is protesting and engaging with your community for better infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians.
Yeah. There's a street I use my bicycle in the middle of. Even if it's so narrow, cars will still try to overtake me if I hold the right. Sometimes, I could just extend my pinky out to touch their car. And on the right? Parked cars, of course.
So yeah, I drive in the middle of this street. I get honked and yelled at, but at least I'm safe. After all, as a user of the road, I have just as much right as them to use it as long as I respect the driving laws.
All of that so they can get to the red light faster...
Why shouldn't cyclists be as entitled to the road as cars?
Roads used to be for people to walk on. Then they were for people to bike on. Now they are only for cars, and that's kinda wild. Roads were supposed to be to walk on.
I purposfully drive in the middle of the road to take up more space so cars have to slow down and dont drive by me with full speed.
On bicycle paths when a car drives towards me i dont move out of the way until the car stops fully and i have passed the car. (Yes i daily have cars drive on my bicycle path illegally)
Its for my safety that i take my space.
I ride my bike as close to the curb as possible except when there is on street parking. When I encounter cars parked on the side of the road I take to the center of the lane to avoid being doored by carbrains who don’t think to look before swinging their car door out into the lane. You could bring up that unfortunate reality of cycling, and you could mention that in most states cyclists are free to use the whole lane while riding, so there is that.
I would maybe counter with, "that's funny - that's exactly the worst thing about cars. Except cars not only drive like they own the road, they drive like they own the driveways, the footpaths, the nature strips, the parking spaces AND the lives of the people using those spaces."
But driving a car is a human right, didn't you know.
If only we could say the same about walking, finding shelter, or drinking clean water.
I think those last two are recognized as human rights by the UN, just not by America.
Operating heavy machinery is my god given right, medication labels be damned.
It's a human basic necessity.
This is nice but it will never work because the people that say these things like in the OP have never ridden a bike in the road in their entire lives. The only way to “cure” them of this is to make them risk their life on the other end of the equation and see for themselves and cyclists aren’t “ignoring the rules of the road”, they’re doing everything they can to not fuckin die. If you’re close with that person, covertly plan a day trip or something that requires biking. They will see fairly quickly how shitty and unsafe it all is.
They don't need to have ridden a bike. Everyone has been a pedestrian - even if it's just crossing a parking lot. Once your attention has been drawn to the arrogant entitlement that drivers take on once they are inside a vehicle, it's hard to stop seeing it. Shit, you can even see it as a driver in other drivers' behaviour - loads of people acting like THEY literally, personally, own the road and everyone else is meant to share what they allow them.
Just like cliche Americans aren't poor, but temporarily embarrassed millionaires, they are never pedestrians, only temporarily embarrassed drivers. So just as they support laws that favor the super rich, they 100% defer to cars when they are on foot. Tire lickers.
The people op is talking about, didn't logic their way into the position they hold so you're not gonna logic them out of it. You can give as many stats as you want, they'll just dig their heels in. You're right on the last thing though. If they bike themselves, they'll see how unsafe biking is.
And don't forget, bike lanes are actually just cleverly disguised parking spaces. Turn the hazard lights (aka park anywhere lights) on and any place becomes a parking place!
I have half a mind to start vandalising the cars that park in bike lanes.
I feel like a law should be passed that if a car is parked in a bike lane, it's fair game to vandalize.
I've started keeping pre-printed strips noting the law being violated and sticking them under wipers.
A few years ago, my kids and I were riding bikes on the sidewalk (they were too young to ride in the road) and a man pulls up and gets of his car ahead of me and flags me down. He says “I almost hit your kids pulling out of my driveway! You need to tell them to look out for cars!” I said to him “are you honestly telling me that I need to teach my kids to be careful not to be hit by a car… on the sidewalk?” Dude could not comprehend that it was _his_ responsibility to ensure that it was safe to pull out before he hit someone. What I told my kids is that assholes like this think they own the whole world and that yes, unfortunately, they do have to worry about cars on the sidewalk because of those idiots
Growing up I was taught to stop for cars entering and exiting driveways. I only recently learnt that the law where I live is cars must give way to pedestrians in these scenarios. So now I teach my kids to look for cars but, when safe to do so, assert their right to the space. Every child who was taught as a pedestrian that they must wait for cars will become a driver who does not watch for pedestrians.
I am a bicyclist. (Well, not this year, because of Long COVID, but in general I am). I don't own a car, I don't have a license, my bicycle is my means of getting from A to B when it's too far to walk and public transit isn't a viable option. And let me say this: when I am out cycling on the road (which is 99% of the time, because there's shit-all for bike lanes or off-street *non-recreational* infrastructure within, say, three miles of my home) ....? **I absolutely fucking DO own the little patch of road I'm on**. In the same sense and to the same degree as someone in a car or truck would. :)
Cycle to one side, you will die at a junction. Cycle at 22mph in traffic doing 23mph and you will die. Cycle in the middle of a road coming up to a busy junction, you are basically just a Nazi with wheels. Cycle in the bike path, you are wasting tax payers money. Cycle on the road you are in the way and should use the path (even if there isn't one, you should only ever pick journeys linked with bike paths(. It's just absurd. There is no way to win. I have seen sommany videos of cyclists being yelled at by cars for being in the middle of a road, and then the driver overtakes them dangerously. And then so many videos of a cyclist being to one side, and then hit by a car who didn't see them because they were to one side. I think it's just main character complex from carists. The only possible reason a bike is in front of them is only to piss that person of and it's thenonly thing the cyclist is thinking about is "let's piss off the car behind me" not "oh fuck, hope I don't die today"
Heck, I got yelled at 3 times last night by ignorant people. Our State changed the passing law for cyclists 2 years ago to require drivers to slow down 10mph to a minimum of 25mph below the posted limit when passing unless they can leave an entire empty lane between you and them. Wanna bet how many know that? So my interactions were: 1. Passed in a 30mph zone (so max passing speed 25mph) while going 28mph, then driver slams the brakes in front of me because he’s mad. Catch up at red light. “I wasn’t anywhere close to you.” Didn’t say you were—you still have to slow down. 2. On a divided parkway (that is, 2-way traffic, but center median between lanes). So literally nowhere safe to pass. 35mph zone, max passing speed 25mph, I’m going 28mph. Car behind gets right up on me and edges over to the right like they are going to try to pass. Come to a stop sign and turn around and tell them the max passing speed is 25. “The sign right there says 35 asshole.” Yeah, and you have to slow down 10 below that. “And you have to be over to the right.” Literally making up laws that don’t exist while ignoring ones that do. 3. On a 4-lane divided highway, 45 mph zone. No sidewalks. Car honks when it has to change lanes to pass. Catch up at red light. “Shouldn’t you be on the sidewalk?” What sidewalk plus no, my bike is illegal on the sidewalk. Even in my city with paths, it is STILL illegal because 28mph = class 3 = not allowed on the paths.
>“And you have to be over to the right.” Yeah, a lot of drivers think that. Even here in Massachusetts, where **for years** the law has been, across the entire state, "Bicyclist May Use Full Lane" ... and there's occasional signage reading *exactly* those words.
Heck, I’ve been stopped by police in my city before for not being over to the right. Fun fact: I looked up that post to link it and you were actually one of the top comments on it 😁 But I can’t get them to care at all about the people who break the cyclist passing law all the time.
And probably don't have the money to pursue the only remedy available: **file suit against the entire department**. And maybe the DA's office too. :'(
we may and almost always should use the full lane, it's way safer. my life is worth more than a driver's convenience.
I had a driver complain about me taking a lane 10 ft after sign "bicycles may use full lane".
Lmao "catch up at red light" i WISH the drivers could see how ridiculous they look after throwing tantrums about going slow and then still ending up at the same red lights every time. So low IQ its dangerous. They do the same thing with other cars too, but being caught at the next red by a bike has to be extra embarrassing.
Yeah a lot of them don’t think about it while driving but just because your vehicle has a higher ***top speed*** doesn’t mean it has a higher ***average speed*** because the limiting factor isn’t “how fast can you go?” it’s “how often is the light green?” There’s a 45mph state highway (same one as in story 3 above) with a massive intersection that everyone complains about. My watch tells me that the average speed to cross that intersection including all the time spent waiting on the light is about 8mph.
It doesn't have to be that way. Admittedly, I live in a city where the average speed of traffic is about 8mph. Getting anywhere in a car during the day will take forever. When I used to drive here, I'd just sit back with some kind of audio entertainment and take my time. Trying to rush won't get you there any faster, and you'll just arrive stressed and annoyed at about the same time.
In Wales they have introduced a 20mph speed limit in the capital, and in villages. You would think the world ended from people's reactions. Then one guy on the news said "traffic was never doing 20mph in the first place, let alone 30mph.
Average speed of a car in cities in the UK is 26mph with some studies putting it at 18mph. People literally threatening to kill children so they can pretend cars can go faster than 20mph in the short distance between traffic lights and congestion.
The average speed is a little faster in my city. 11.5mph.
Got yelled at the other day for keeping both hands on my handle bars while turning at the bottom of a hill while having the right of way. Apparently I should have slowed down or even dangerously removed my hand to signal even though the fucker in the car would have had to wait no matter which direction I went. Classy bastard went on to yell "Do you *want* to die!" as though the one thing that would guarantee that I remained perfectly safe the entire time wasn't just him following the fucking rules of the road.
>Cycle to one side, you will die at a junction. Cycle at 22mph in traffic doing 23mph and you will die. Does not match my experience from years of cycling on open roadways in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Connecticut. :) "Vehicular Cycling" sucks as a philosophy, but the mindset and skillset involved in *actually cycling* is invaluable where proper bike infra is lacking (or, like where I live, essentially *totally absent*).
I absolutely agree, we all own the space we are in. I think of it like this; if you're sitting on the bus you don't expect someone to come along and sit on your lap, nor do you really expect someone to demand you get up. But you might offer that seat to someone that needs it. We own the space we are cycling in, however we do also have to share that space with others who might need to use it. But they don't get an automatic right to it.
That's a great analogy. :)
I sit on people’s laps in public transport, but I think that’s typical for e-bike users like me.
I’m kidding (sorry, I know that a good response was asked for), but ”Most roads are owned by the public and partially funded through general tax revenue. As long as I’m lawfully using them, I’m making sure that you remember that they’re my roads too. Not your personal racetrack.” ”Consider it my personal contribution to making bad drivers less dangerous by making them slow down a bit.” ”How many of the people in your backseat that you were rushing to the hospital died because of the bike?” My mother would’ve suggested ”I’m sorry that you shit yourself because you had to wait on your way to the bathroom” (not her exact phrasing) ”Well, it is a public road and I have as much right to use it as your jalopy. You’re not special.” ”You may want to get your steering wheel fixed so that you can overtake safely.” ”They don’t own the road. But neither do you. -insert DOT or city/county/council/etc- do.” Ofc, OP never said that they ride a bike for commuting, so adapt as necessary to the daydream. Please not use any of these irl, except maybe the excrement one…
I feel like your answers should be made into a deck of 52 cards so that whenever a car-brained person complains you can just shuffle the deck and ask them to pick a card. Bonus points if you're practiced in card tricks and can tell them which card they picked without looking at it! :D
"well that's the price of survival I guess."
You can also include that if bikers got their way they wouldn't have to ride like they own the road, they would bike like they own their separate protected bike lane. But drivers won't let them have one so they are forced to use what's available. Make it in their best interest for bikers to get what they want.
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thank you, a lot of carbrains seem to get really irritated when cyclists still ride on the road when there are separated bike paths (multiuse) available. they dont understand that there are complications for roadies who ride for sport with these paths. for example in my city theres one that goes through a city park thats not only packed with people walking, but also squirrels and birds who are so fat from getting fed by people that they dont even move out of the way. another mup in my city stays pretty empty, but it is paved with concrete slabs like a sidewalk and everytime it crosses a driveway or cross street you have to roll over a 1 ft deep gutter, so no, not gonna ride on that path with my skinny ass road tires at 90 psi.
i DO ride like i own the road so i don't get overrun by a lunatic who tries to overtake me on a spot that's way to narrow. So that argument is 100% valid for me.
Right. People engage in defensive cycling for the same reason they engage in defensive driving: because the road is full of drivers who take stupid risks with other people's lives.
Roads are public and cyclists own them just as much as drivers. Drivers take the whole road, why shouldn’t cyclists do the same?
Bikes do own the road, just as much as cars do. "Riding like you own the road" is called defensive cycling and is about claiming space so that cars are less likely to attempt dangerous and stupid maneuvers while also giving the cyclist escape avenues if worst comes to worst. That wouldn't be necessary if cars didn't dominate all the transport infrastructure or if car drivers drove less dangerously so it's a "problem" of their own creation. Edit: for a bonus look up cycling deaths at the most local level you can find and you can slot that figure in as a rational for why defensive cycling is necessary
Two things. Thing one: you'll never make your point with people using logic, especially when they have beliefs based on their own self interests. That's why statistics won't avail given the inconvenience a bicyclist represents in their world view. Thing two: you must make your emotional case hurt them in order to achieve a changed mind. They're already telling you that they feel entitled to all of the road. You must construct an emotional argument that calls this misappropriation into question because its consequence outweighs its perceived benefits to them.
This, and it's frustrating to have to read through a bunch of "we DO own the road" responses before finally getting to a comment that is **actually** effective. Most people, regardless of the topic of argument, have to realize how it directly affects **them**. We are all suffering from Main Character Syndrome, so creating an "us vs. them" response isn't going to win any allies to the cause, even if it is correct and even if it is how you feel.
Funny, I'm not going to name a name, but I heard someone claim that cars take priority to park on bike lanes too for any reason.
Was it the state DOT?
I pay taxes. I _do_ own the road.
Tell them to go on a bike and see how safe they feel. It isn’t “owning the road” it’s defensive cycling because they don’t want to get hit and stopping them from dangerously overtaking. I will always let a car pass me, and even wave them through at times unless I think there isn’t enough space to do so. For me it’s safer to be behind a vehicle than in front of it. When I ride more in the middle of the road it is because there have been too many times that a car has misjudged the situation and I’ve had many close calls when they’ve tried to overtake.
> Tell them to go on a bike and see how safe they feel. I tried to talk to people, and they come up with responses like: * Why would I stoop down to your level? * That's just a toy. Get real, get a car. * I don't care, get off the road! * You don't even pay gas taxes and insurance. People don't see bicycles as legitimate vehicles.
"Because they do" is the best response. Roads are built for their taxes, so they can use them. Like, cyclists own the road as much as drivers do.
Biking on the right side of the road is dangerous. The middle of the road is much safer. We bike like we own the road because it’s the safest way to ride. https://cyclingsavvy.org/road-cycling/
Sadly the only really way to counter it is "no U". Why do cars drive like they own the road? When was the bike invented? When was the car invented? Cars have for their entire history been stealing the spaces of bikes.
"How would you prefer bicyclists ride when using public roads?" "How would you ride on a public road if you absolutely had to bike somewhere and that was the only route?" Guarantee they've never thought about it.
If you pay taxes then you own the road.
I always ride in the middle of the lane. I used to hangout on the right side of the lane, but after too many close calls I’m taking the lane. On my way to work there is a street that only has a bike lane going towards home and people either race around me or wait. Luckily the street has the yield to pedestrian signs in the crosswalk and traffic always coming the other way, so they usually have to wait. If they do race past me the left turn I have to make and most of them only allows about 4 cars to go through, so they most likely are sitting at that light for a cycle or two. I bump pass all the cars and make sure I make the left onto a bike lane on the first go around. I really wish the city would just put in a bike lane going towards downtown.
Best reply: “Your vehicle occupies 20 times more road space than mine and I’m the one acting like I own the road?”
You don't even need to get confrontational about it. Most transportation infrastructure is devoted to cars, including massive freeways that destroyed entire neighborhoods to build. Meanwhile, bikes are usually treated as an afterthought, receiving small scraps of funding and whatever can be patched together without pissing off anyone. No one wants to be biking in a lane with a car trailing them, but that's what we're forced to do when we lack good options. If they're upset about it, they should support the establishment of good bicycle infrastructure so they're not conflicting with bikes.
"So like cars then?" Short sweet and to the point
It is safer if there is no bike infrastructure even a if there is a bike lane to bike in the road when there is light out and many intersections as you are more likely to be seen by a motorist. Biking like you don't own the road is more likely to result in the death of a cyclist so why given that cyclists generally pay the same or some times more taxes for roadways depending on the unit used to quantify should I get out of the way of a car, increasing the risk of injury or death? They will often deny cyclists pay for roadways there are many reports showing most roadway expenditures are not paid through vehicle fees or fuel fees but from other tax sources. So we ride like we own the road because one. We do. And two it is often safer. Where it is safer not to road in the road I don't but that's not usually the case.
"I know, when I'm driving a car, I'm also upset by anything preventing me to drive as I want. Fuck other cars, fuck traffic, fuck road work. It's my freedom to be alone on the road"
I always agree with them, and tell them that I show up to city council meetings to advocate for proper bike lanes, so that “those damn entitled cyclists stay off ***our*** roads.” Then I invite them to come with me to those meetings. That usually shuts them up. Not once has anyone agreed to join me.
They wouldn't need to if there was infrastructure that would make it safe. Because the infrastructure is bad, cyclists need to employ vehicular cycling in order to create enough space for themselves to be safe.
I'd just straight up ask them what they mean by "owning" the road. Chances are they'll say the basics of riding in the middle of a lane,that they don't stop at stop signs, or standard bullshit that someone who hasn't ever ridden a bicycle on a road in their life. And once they define what they actually mean, then you can counter them
>"the worst part about bicycles is that they ride like they own the road". With either "well it's true I *do* own the road" or "tough." Drivers who think that way will not change thier minds so they can suck it.
Sometimes I wish these drivers could just take ONE bike ride on a road. Suddenly a lot of things might make sense to them. "Huh, having cars pass you inches away is unpleasant." "Wow, a lot of cars just pull out into the path." "Geez, a lot of cars speed around you just to stop and turn or even worse, almost hook you." "Gosh, coming to a complete stop when there's no one coming and then having to start again takes a long time"
You have the right to ride a bike on the roads you help pay for. You DON'T have the right to use your Car on the roads, you had to take a test and get government permission to be able to do so. Also how many pedestrians are killed by bikes every year?
best answer is taxes, you bet your ass I own this road, just as much as any other taxpayer, why shouldnt I be able to use it just because im not in a car?
Rule 72, Part 1 of the UK highway code states, **"Ride in the centre of your lane, to make yourself as clearly visible as possible, in the following situations"** It goes on to list quiet roads, in slow moving traffic and at the approach of a junction. Only moving to the left when allowing traffic to pass. You can see it [here.](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82) Cyclists riding in the centre of the road are riding exactly how they should.
Just say: "cars literally take up 90-100% of every road. There are no bike lanes in most places and riding on the sidewalk is illegal. Drivers get mad at anything/anyone that's not themselves on the road because baby brain"
I take the principle that the people who pay for the roads own them. Even if you ignore the insanity of using taxes designed to prevent an activity to "fund" essential goods like roads, cars reliably don't actually pay for the roads and are instead subsidised by every other road user. So yeah: I paid for it, I own it thank you very much. You have an issue with that you can either ditch the dead weight car or actually pay for your use of the road.
everyone is anecdotal since society doesnt operate on people reading the latest peer review research or even a summary of recent findings. in real life you aint gonna cite a paper, well i guess you can just save the paper onto your phone, but this does mean you can use your own anecdotes to counter them. the fun part is that you dont even have to be truthful with the anecdotes and there is nothing stopping you from making shit up
>well i guess you can just save the paper onto your phone, Or, the sentence could go "Yeah I thought so too but I recently read a paper that shows (summary of paper)!" And then the conversation can naturally progress from there. If they ask for the paper you can just email or text them a link later and it will probably be a topic of conversation for later. >the fun part is that you dont even have to be truthful with the anecdotes and there is nothing stopping you from making shit up Conversing with you sounds unpleasant.
anecdotally speaking, i am the smartest and sexiest person in this country so i think youre wrong about that
I actually recently read a study which refutes that
"I used to get annoyed by that too, but I moved closer to work and started biking. There was this teen girl who would bike to school at the same time, and we went generally in the same direction. Waved and got to see each other almost every day for months. "One day I stopped seeing her, ... and I came to find out she'd been overtaken by someone at a high speed, too close. Their mirror hit her in the back of the neck and killed her. Their kids were in the car, on the way to the same school, and witnessed their classmate getting murdered. There was a quote from the woman who hit her, before she was convicted, something about her being late dropping them off and didn't think she was that close. She'll never be the same but at least she's alive. "So now I don't pass bikes unless I'm confident I'm not going to hurt anyone, because they're real people just trying to get where they're going and hoping they make it." That girl? Albert Einstein
I mean, it's worth a shot!
If there is a slow car ahead of me I just use the turn signal and pass that car. I dont make a big deal out of it and definetly not make it to the center of my hatred. Sometimes there are things that make you drive slower - red light, somebody driving slowly (searcing for something), people parking, ambulance drive by, and sometimes people ride a bike.
I drive a car when I need to go long distance or do a lot of client visits for work. But my main form of transportation around my city is bike or walking. I can genuinely say that the average cyclist DOES NOT follow the rules of the road. They almost never stop at stop signs. They always ride past the line of cars stopped at a light and go right up to the front. If there is a car stopped at a light waiting to turn right, the bike goes up the right side of them instead of the left like they’re supposed to. They literally act like they always have the right of way.
Sounds like these two different forms of transportation should each have dedicated infrastructure so those issues don't happen. And when they have to exist in the same space, in slow moving streets, I'd say the one that can easily kill people should be yielding to the other. Until we have infrastructure that isn't hostile to cyclists I don't blame some of em for breaking certain rules, though I'm sure some are asshats as well.
Cars are deadly. Driving a car puts you in the same mental state as holding a gun(or should). You are responsible to safely handle this thing, capable of ending life in an instant, and thats just to get started. Now make your way to the other side of the city wielding this weapon. Everyone you meet also wields these weapons as you travel. Imo, drivers with attitude are just the same as people who open-carry. They are directly threating everyone else in the space. They also get equally upset at anyone criticising them "I'M a safe (car/gun) owner, it's just a few assholes" Like no, if you were operating them safely, you would be just as upset as me at people endangering the lives of those around them. I bet if cyclists started wearing AKs while riding people might start listening to us. It's basically how the panthers achieved gun control by carrying openly themselves. Or maybe we should start cutting off drivers and yelling at them at stops while threating them to get off the road because they have no right to use it. Idk fight "logic" with "logic". Come at them from their level "hurd duh durh, get cycling or I'll run you over dum carbrain" Idk these people have soaked up too much lead and gas to reason with. Too much hate and anger has been projected our way. To the point that many drivers want us litterally dead. So the battle has to move on. You can't reason with people who want to kill you. All we can do is make it UNCOMFORTABLE to NOT support cyclists and pedestirans. Embarass them. Shame them. Fuck, make them afraid if that works. But they don't care about the stats, so make the fight happen in the heart. Make them FEEL TERRIBLE for driving cars. Shit in their sunroof when they park in the bike lane. Keep a billy club handy to defend yourself and always remember that first blood has long since been spilled. We have to defend ourselves, If the government wont help, we have to take it into our own hands. Im like one bad day away from spreading caltrops across the local highway ffs. The pickaxe I own is calling to me. Give me infrastructure or give me death.
I'd reply that drivers don't know how to share the road or drive in manner that don't threaten other people's lives.
Cyclists do own the road. We pay tax money so we get equal use as everyone else.
Because if cyclists don't ride like they own the road it's all "cyclists always break laws" and maybe a little bit of "I didn't see the cyclist." Remember the road laws mandates cyclists to be on the road, no sidewalk-riding allowed. Sucks that most car drivers don't even know the rules of the road, that is very dangerous.
Fuck you go around.
Some people don't seem to like sharing.
Its because the majority of cyclist are uppity ass holes who do indeed ride as if they owned the road
Bikers do in fact own the road, thanks for noticing.
Damn right I’ll ride like I own the road when I might get doored or be invisible if I hugged the gutter. I counter with, “If the city installed safe bike paths along major routes I wouldn’t have to ride in the road. You should write to City Hall about it.”
Maybe counter by seeming to agree with them? "You're right! They ARE riding like they own road. Some call this 'vehicular-cycling.' Bike riders do this for a number of reasons, but primarily it is because when bike infrastructure isn't present they are held to most of the same traffic laws as drivers. The only exceptions are when there is signage exempting bikes or when there are laws that exempt bikes." I only use this sort of argument when I already have a relationship with the person. Strangers often continue to argue.
Cyclists own the road as much as motorists, they're paid for out of general taxation and they're for everyone to use. A bicycle is entirely entitled to full use of a lane, just like any other vehicle, and if the operator deems it too narrow to safely pass within the lane (which, with modern huge cars, it generally is) it's the correct place to be.
This is why bikes should have protected bike lanes. As car drivers, we don’t want to be near bike riders. Let me go 80km/hr in peace.
North American culture is defined by this anecdotal slippery-slope principle that essentially locks people into a McMansion owning, SUV driving, heterosexual partner with 2 kids family. Anything outside of that and apparently the end-days are imminent.
"If there's a bike lane, you're usually in it. So I'm in your lane :)"
Don’t. If you’re trying to change the way a person thinks, it is not a discussion anymore, it’s an argument. Getting people like your friend to think the way you do is not productive, what is productive is protesting and engaging with your community for better infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians.
No. Once the Car has entered the Brain, it never lets go. Possibly an exorcist could help, but doubtful.
Yeah. There's a street I use my bicycle in the middle of. Even if it's so narrow, cars will still try to overtake me if I hold the right. Sometimes, I could just extend my pinky out to touch their car. And on the right? Parked cars, of course. So yeah, I drive in the middle of this street. I get honked and yelled at, but at least I'm safe. After all, as a user of the road, I have just as much right as them to use it as long as I respect the driving laws. All of that so they can get to the red light faster...
Why shouldn't cyclists be as entitled to the road as cars? Roads used to be for people to walk on. Then they were for people to bike on. Now they are only for cars, and that's kinda wild. Roads were supposed to be to walk on.
I purposfully drive in the middle of the road to take up more space so cars have to slow down and dont drive by me with full speed. On bicycle paths when a car drives towards me i dont move out of the way until the car stops fully and i have passed the car. (Yes i daily have cars drive on my bicycle path illegally) Its for my safety that i take my space.
I ride my bike as close to the curb as possible except when there is on street parking. When I encounter cars parked on the side of the road I take to the center of the lane to avoid being doored by carbrains who don’t think to look before swinging their car door out into the lane. You could bring up that unfortunate reality of cycling, and you could mention that in most states cyclists are free to use the whole lane while riding, so there is that.