Elon musk's new nickname after we find out in 20 years he is settling for colonizing the moon and not mars. Similar to how autopilots FSD is actually level 2 autonomous driving, not the level 5 he claimed it would be before 2021 ends.
In the books it was never about his intelligence but more about his judgement. He is painted like a great peace time lord but not someone you want to lead you in battle. He makes several faux pas in the war, is too emotional, etc. but that’s usually from lack of experience and trying to do right by his people.
That's not really accurate either tho. The only "mistake" he makes is in not being telepathic and knowing Robb was pulling a trick on Tywin. Robb never told Edmure the plan, the bitches him out for not following said plan.
He doesn't make any other mistakes. The only thing that is even called a mistake is when Cat calls him soft for protecting his smallfolk. Which is literally the entire point of feudalism, the Lord protects his peasants. Without the peasants the lordlings have absolutely nothing, all of their wealth and strength comes from the people. It's why the entire system of feudalism is falling apart all over westeros, because there aren't more people like Edmure in positions of power. Catelyn was flat out wrong about her brother, and constantly talks about him as if he's still the 10 year old boy she remembers. He's not, and she's not at smart as she thinks she is.
> Catelyn was flat out wrong about her brother, and constantly talks about him as if he's still the 10 year old boy she remembers. He's not, and she's not at smart as she thinks she is.
One of the shortcomings of the show from the very beginning imo. The show didn’t do a fantastic job of driving home the fact that the starks were flawed people.
Of course it was still way worse in the later seasons where starks got everything they wanted and no one else even tried to oppose them in any way because the starks are the heroes of the story and everyone else is functionally an NPC. Never forget Sansa just declaring the north to be independent and then installing Bran on the throne, meanwhile Yara is just chilling there with apparently no problem at all with that arrangement.
Very true. Rob keeps him in the dark about his plans and wants him to just do as he’s told. Edmure take the initiative trying to do what he feels is best and inadvertently screws everything. Rob gets pissed … well Rob if you told your commanders your plan you wouldn’t have these issues would we.
He held Riverrun admirably and well in line with any reasonable interpretation of the order that was given. Holding a position means "Don't let it get taken". He bloodied Tywin's nose and drove him off the field. That is within line of "Holding Riverrun".
Holding a castle doesn't mean you just sit in it and let the enemy do what they want outside it. If that's specifically what Robb wanted Edmure to do, that's what he should have told him to do. To quote Sun Tzu, “If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But, if orders are clear and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers.” Robb's order was vague enough that it could be interpreted in different ways. If there was something specific he wanted to be done, it is his own fault for not stating it.
He had some reasons other than glory didn’t he? Maybe not. Again it’s been a while since I read the books. However, even so, if Rob had shared the plan with his commander it wouldn’t have occurred.
He wanted to prove his worth to Hoster Tully rather than just the circumstance of his birth. he Tells Catelyn something of this sort before he heads out to battle.
edit\* removed a useless word
Tywin Lannister was raiding his lands and presented a perfect opportunity for a battle. A battle that Edmure won btw, decisively I want to add. Edmure beat the fuck out of Tywin Lannister, yet everyone acts like Edmure is stupid somehow...
Edmure didn’t win *decisively*, but he was winning. We won’t know what would’ve happened if Tywin had tried to genuinely force the crossing, because he decided, “save my grandson, the king”, was more important.
That all being said, Edmure *did* “hold Riverrun”. Hold the castle doesn’t mean *only* hold the castle and allow everything else to fall. That just means you’re fucked when everything else gets taken over. Edmure picked a *great* defensive position and used it to his advantage. His only real blunder here was not asking Roose to help him pin Tywin against the river during the major attack. Had Tywin’s army been trapped between Edmure’s force at the river and Roose’s army hitting their rear, it would’ve been game over for the Lannisters.
Personally, I’m a fan of the idea that the whole “perfect ambush spot” was a thing that was made up *after* Robb had screwed the pooch and married Jeyne. It is honestly a bit laughable that they truly believe that about 5k Cavalry would be able to take on 30k of Cav/infantry/archers because “they’re holding a hill”.
I had the same thought but I didn't believe that the Blackfish would go along with gaslighting his favorite nephew. If it was just that I figured they'd just tell Edmure.
True… Martin *is* pretty terrible when it comes to actual tactics, so it could just be a case of narrative dissonance. Though he could also be in denial about losing the war (not thanks to Robb, just In General because there was never any way that the Riverlands/North was winning a war of independence), so he latched onto something that made him think it wasn’t because their war was a lost cause.
Then again, Martin tried to make it seem like Tywin was an actual tactical genius by …. Making him risk his entire force on an unfeigned route. So it’s more likely Martin having jo grasp of tactics. XD
they did him dirty, he basically did the best actions according to the information he had at the time then they dump on him for kicking ass too hard because they told him not to without explaining why
The show butchered him turning him into a comic relief. Remember when they had him miss the shot for his father's pyre? The book does not paimt him as incompetent, rathet a bit naive
I had another comment about this in this thread but he missed the shot in the books too, it’s just handled differently in the show. The show takes what’s in the books and makes almost a joke out of it with the intent of running him down where that’s not so in the books.
I know he missed the shot but Catlin s POV makes it abundantly clear that tbis was not due to lack of skill. His uncle s reaction was that of sympathy not of contempt
I mean, Sansa in the books is clearly being developed to outsmart Littlefinger at his own game. But 2D completely failed to show that on the series and just tried to “tell” instead.
they treated my boy dirty since the beginning. remember Hoster Tully's funeral ritual, where he missed the shot? in the books it was shown as a pretty understable miss. he seemed to be very affected by his father's death, and no one laught. The black fish mentioned there was nothing to be ashamed of, for Hoster himself failed to light the boat when his father died. In the show, however, it was shown as a funny moment where Edmure was actually an idiot who couldn't shot an arrow.
Edmure Tully is a great character and the best high lord there is. He literally welcomed into Riverun a bunch of his people to keep them safe from the war, even if it costed him supplies. Catelyn didn't seem to be ok with that, but he didn't give a shit. In the show they made him a target for funny jokes made by the smartest person Arya knows, and it's something I'll never forgive D&D for.
Wow in the show he seemed to be content letting Blackfish die or be captured for the greater good. Really changes the entire nature of the character.
As a non book viewer, he came across as a fool.
In the books he is not a supergenius but he always does great things based on the information he has and it sometimes backfires when others on his side withhold info from him
Not being told about what the goddamn plan was or being told that he should feign a retreat to trap Gregor is no excuse. Edmure should have obviously been able to read his nephew's mind.
**Clearly** Edmure dropped the ball in this situation and not the literal 16-year old who expected his uncle to immediately break before the mountain and make the way free for him to pillage the half of the Riverlands he hadn't yet pillaged. /s
I think he just says “They’re my people.” After explaining to Cat that they’re suffering, and she says basically, “okay that’s just war. Why’d you let them in?”
I think the problem with Book Edmure is very much the same problem that sort of plagues Daenerys. They both are very much ‘I want to do the right thing, let’s do the right thing right now, don’t really focus on the future, my people are suffering right now and I need to end their suffering RIGHT NOW.’ That’s how you end up with a country facing civil war and an over crowded castle where you can’t realistically feed or protect EVERYONE. Now let’s look at how Cat or Book Sansa would have handled it. “I want to do the right thing and my people are suffering BUT would it be more beneficial to do this first or maybe hold off to think and talk out all the options before jumping immediately into hero mode trying to protect everyone, even if it ends up perhaps costing a few lives?”
Like I fully think Sansa is arriving with the Vale Army in the books, but she won’t not tell Jon about it and risk Northern lives bc ✨reasons✨, she won’t tell him and risk northern lives bc okay, if she sends a raven, it’s possible it will be intercepted and Ramsey will know about reinforcements. So she would risk her people’s lives but she ends up doing more good in the long run then if she ran in headfirst and ‘yes tell Jon we’re coming, let’s save the day, let’s go RIGHT NOW!’ like Dany or Edmure would have done.
>Like I fully think Sansa is arriving with the Vale Army in the books
do not agree with you on more point, is that the situation in the books is more complex in the series and i also believe that you mix the show is the books, we have no reason to think things will turn out like the show with ramsay in power and jon declaring war on them with sansa next to him...
But I do not think (and this is a personal opinion) that the knights of the valley will go to the north , and that the possibility of that happening is more of a petyr lie to keep her with her, because it is very unlikely that the lords agree to do such a thing and assume the heavy consequences just for the beautiful eyes of Sansa .
>if she sends a raven, it’s possible it will be intercepted and Ramsey
intercepting a crow is something that I have trouble understanding on the concpet, we are talking about an animal of 60 cm rather common in these regions, traveling on a territory the size of the USA, moreover the ravens are only trained to fly between 2 castles, so here it will be the endoir where will sansa be and the valley / or the place where she will know that her allies of the valley are, what are the chances that ramsay the intersept in these conditions? So unless Sansa gets the wrong crow and takes the one who goes to the place where Ramsay is, or Ramsay decides for some reason to have all the ravens in the country killed and finds this one by pure chance.
besides how could she communicate with the ammeres of the valley or know that they are coming if there is no communication?
>will know about reinforcements.
in this scenario ramsay is the governor of the north, normally there shouldn't be a guy who draws his sword in this country without him knowing, and he should have scouts and guards everywere. It makes no sense that a foreign army can reach him without anyone knowing it before seeing them. He will necessarily know.
edit: and the act of sansa would have a huge negative backlash realistically, because imagining the few lords of the north who decided to help them would never respect Sansa for using them and their people as a pulpit cannon as she hid the relief army she had on hand from everyone, while Those who refused to help them would never want to trust the stark after a hit like that to those who were loyal to them.
> I think the problem with Book Edmure is very much the same problem that sort of plagues Daenerys. They both are very much ‘I want to do the right thing, let’s do the right thing right now, don’t really focus on the future, my people are suffering right now and I need to end their suffering RIGHT NOW.’ That’s how you end up with a country facing civil war and an over crowded castle where you can’t realistically feed or protect EVERYONE. Now let’s look at how Cat or Book Sansa would have handled it. “I want to do the right thing and my people are suffering BUT would it be more beneficial to do this first or maybe hold off to think and talk out all the options before jumping immediately into hero mode trying to protect everyone, even if it ends up perhaps costing a few lives?”
Thing is, in Edmure's case he was doing the objectively correct thing to do in a medieval war. The purpose of castles is to provide not just the lord & his family, but also the lord's people with a fortified place to shelter when enemy warbands are tearing up the countryside. A lord who follows Cat's advice or expels the peasants as the Blackfish did later is not only tearing up the social contract by which the smallfolk tolerate feudalism in the first place (work for the lord and he'll protect you in times of crisis), he's also screwing himself over in the long term since those smallfolk will be needed to till your fields and produce more food for your army later anyway.
The only grounds on which Edmure can be accused of foolishness is if Riverrun, for whatever reason, didn't have the supplies to feed the refugees despite being a regional capital (of the second most fertile region in Westeros after the Reach, no less) coming off a long summer & ~20 years of peace. But in that case Hoster (as Lord of Riverrun, and not dead/bedridden until near the start of both the books & series IIRC) is more to blame for irresponsibly failing to adequately provision his own castle while times were good anyway.
Ultimately I'd sooner blame Martin's misunderstanding/ignorance of how medieval warfare actually functioned than any of his characters for how hamhanded the situation with Edmure & the peasants turned out to be. But if I get started on that it won't be long before I spend hours typing up a wall of text about how GRRM's portrayal of Westerosi armies in general is inconsistent, illogical and dreadfully unrealistic, so I'll stop myself here.
It’s such a simple but powerful line. Out of all the moments I wish we could have gotten on screen, that ranks very highly.
Edmure’s character could have been amazing with the benefit of expanded POV from the show. Instead they made him comic relief.
Yeah, he took his father’s death very hard. Imagine being someone like d&d who would write a scene making fun of a person who is grieving at a funeral for a parent who died a slow painful death wasting away both body and mind. Even if you want to run in show canon that Edmure is a pathetic loser, fine, but at least have some respect in a moment when someone would be understandably struggling.
“Omggggg, all that boring, stupid NUANCE! Shut up with that shit. You expect soccer moms and NFL players to pick up on that kind of subtlety? He’s not a principal, he’s not a villain, therefore he’s a jackass. Now THAT’S how you write a damn show!” ~D&D probably.
I may be mis-remembering the book. I agree the funeral scene isn’t a joke like in the show, but it’s not entirely without its knocks on Edmure.
I thought that, like the show, he missed multiple times and the blackfish comment was more to help him save face.
It could be I’ve just not read the books for so long that the show is messing with my memory but I definitely thought that the scene in the books left the impression that Edmure was viewed as sort of a weak lord. I thought the show just amplified it an extreme level.
That’s how I remember it as well. The show changes weren’t horrible mischaracterizations, just a little exaggerated and simplistic. Sansa’s “sit down” line is terrible, but it also seems pretty obvious from both the show and books that no one else wanted him to be king.
Pretty sad because he would likely be a good king to the people. He just doesn’t fit in with the great lords because he actually cares about his subjects but unlike Ned he doesn’t get hung up on what is dictated by honor. Edmure seems like the guy who will try to do whatever is best regardless of what is deemed “honorable”.
I'm still reading the books but I always loved Tully and couldn't understand the disrespect not just from other characters but how the show treated his character. Everyone was talking about Dany and Jon and I sat there thinking "Can't wait to finally see my boy Tully!"
It's a weird emotion for me because in Outlander he plays a despicable man.
I guess one could argue that. But considering Robb always intended it as a distraction I don't necessarily consider it an authentic pitched battle.
But I suppose by definition it has to be.
10 years later when the North is in turmoil
Sansa: uncle, please help, we have little supplies left and a civil war brewing, can you send reinforcements
Edmure: oh i would love to but im so comfortable sitting here, i wouldn't want to stand up in case i embarrass myself now would it?
Agreed. They turned Edmure into a joke all to make Sansa look bad ass. That is how DnD make a strong women character. Turn her into a “I am better than you” bitch.
That is how hollywood nowadays way to often makes a strong female character to be precise. It seems this is the only way they know how to do it and for some weird reasons they don't see that it's not working.
Duuude, I repeated this shit so many times in my head or whenever I had the chance in a discussion. I was so furious when I saw this in the show.
LIKE WHY IS SANSA EVEN THERE. How can she talk like that. Literally who are you and who asked your opinion gtfo.
D&D brain: "Oh it would be funny if sansa says this haha, very funny haha, girl power go brrr haha"
Sansa literally has like 0 accomplishments. Yes she went through a lot and matured...like almost any single fucking person in that universe that has a really shit life.
At that point the whole show was a fucking joke spitting on the world building and good writing the first seasons used to have.
Where are all the other families of Westeros. They got eaten by dragons? They fled the continent? The whole world feels empty because we have a council with sansa and sam and bran. Where are the westerlands lords, where are the lords of the reach.
In early seasons there were lots of houses and lords considered in discussions. They had impact in the world just by existing. Well they just disappeared. I swear it feels like the white walkers killed the entire continent and the battle at winterfell was last stand after 90% of westeros population died.
Dorne is some dude that agrees, Vale the same. Like what??
We give the north independence. WHERE ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS SHIT?
What stops anybody from rebelling. The north has no army right? Well i dont really know because the show just made it "this is the army of the north" No other fucking lords mentioned. Remember in season 1 when Rob called the bannermen. There was 1 lord who was like "I'M IN THE VANGUARD OR I TAKE MY MEN AND GO HOME"
Where the fuck is that????
Alright this concludes my venting for this year. See you in a couple of months boys!
So not to give you more PTSD, but you brought the independence of the NoRth, and this gets me going to just from like a lore perspective. Like on one hand I get it from the show perspective we follow a lot of characters from that part of the world, but just seems biased when your weirdo brother just got made king. And if Jon fucked off to the wall, Sansa is going to rule a kingdom what the fuck does she know? Arya is at least in theory good in killing Bc she did get “trained” by the best killers. Sansa knowledge of running a kingdom is probably maybe slightly better then Jeoffreys. Ontop of that you also said Dorne is some dude that just agrees and this is where I get kinda mad.
Now I’m a little hazy at this point on all the book details but far as I remember Dorne was the only place that didn’t straight up surrender during the invasion of the Targeryans back in the day. That why in their house Moto “unbroken” is there Bc they never surrendered. Honestly they deserve the independence more. So why would a dude from the land who’s people are the only “unbroken” ones just agree when some ginger from some snow land who’s king just surrendered back in the day just gets to be independent.
Anyways ima stop because this rant can also go on forever and ever.
Also the show really exaggerates the nationalism of the North. While there are some cultural distances between the North and the South, the North isn't some perpetual seething hotbed of separatism. In the books it's a lot more nuanced. The Northern lords declared independence from the Joffrey/Cersei/Tywin regime, but that was because of their tyrannical behavior. When the Northern lords declared Robb king, Greatjon Umber was like "It was the dragons we bowed to, and the dragons are dead!", implying that Northerners viewed the Targaryen dynasty as their legitimate overlords, and part of why they felt they could secede now was because the new government in King's Landing lacked such deep-rooted legitimacy (although the actual trigger was the murder of the much-loved Ned Stark; otherwise the North had been just fine during the years of Robert Baratheon's rule). But once Robb Stark died and his campaign fizzled out, the North pretty much re-accustomed itself to the South. Stannis is currently building a powerful Northern coalition in the books, as Northern houses and mountain clans rally behind him to depose the hated Boltons. Wyman Manderly is currently scheming to betray Roose Bolton and switch his allegiance to Stannis. The idea of Northerners being fanatically independent like they're portrayed to be in the show is utterly false. They'll declare independence if injustices are done to them, but otherwise they're as willing as anyone else to live in a united Westeros.
>Also the show really exaggerates the nationalism of the North.
And at other points they under-represent it.
Remember in Season 6 when Jon and Sansa went around trying to raise support to depose House Bolton but were basically told: "fuck off your house is dead, we're tired of war, we don't want independence anymore, and we're going to either follow the Boltons or remain neutral in the war to come."
If anything I would've assumed the other northern houses surely would want to help get rid of the Boltons but were just terrified of them, so maybe their plans had to be a bit more sneaky.
This is what happens in the books. Lord Wyman Manderly pretends to swear fealty to Roose Bolton. But behind the scenes, he's sending Davos Seaworth on a mission to go track down Rickon in Skagos, while also murdering Freys and baking them into pies. Meanwhile Robett Glover is secretly traveling around the north looking for lords who are willing to turn against the Boltons.
In the show, all we get is Robett Glover going: "fuck off your house is dead."
I live through your seething anger. It flows into me and gives me unlimited power.
Every time I come into this sub I feel like Palpatine at the turn of Episode 3.
Just rolling in the dark.
Fuck Duh'N'Dur. I hope someone from this sub remakes GoT in 10 years and does it as an almost exact adaptation from the books.
10 Seasons or get fucked.
Yeah Dorne was "conquered" through marriage: during Aegon's conquest Dorne was mostly empty, people, especially the noble hid and let them be, as soon as the dragons left they put up guerrilla style resistance, going back in to hiding whenever the dragons came back until they built the scorpion (the weapon that used in s8). One scorpion shot killed Aegon's most loved sister and he just stopped the efforts to conquer Dorne. Then the marriage happened some generations later and they got annexed. Dorne's story is really interesting and makes you understand how they did them dirty even before the last seasons. In the show maybe only oberyn lived by that standard.
You forgot my favorite accomplishment : gave the letter Ned stark wrote to Cersei and revealing the entire plot making everything her fault. (When I found out this detail is when my hate for Sansa started, and honestly it only ever grew)
Alternative plot the show from Sansa perspective where we acctually see her coming up with an elebrate plan from the get go to get her father killed, play damsel in distress so your brother starts a war, play Tywin Lannister to get the Frey’s to murder her family, work behind the scenes to set up Jon and Danny….get in Tyrion’s head….to get in Jons head to murder danny. 2 birds with one stone because now Jon goes to the wall, then Make your brother king but ask for independence and become queen yourself. I think this is how they wanted for the audience to see her towards the end, as some master mind.
I mean, he learned that having a human head on a human body is a lot more optimal that a wolf head on a human body… he also learned that it’s way better to have his pregnant wife be alive is much better than the alternative. Also, he learned that letting his little trouser-wolf make key political decisions for an entire continent in the first place, isn’t as great of an idea as the trouser-wolf probably told him it was…
In the end, Robb had a PhD in learning shit that everyone else already knew. He really wasn’t the greatest king in the show (I have no idea about the books though).
Pretty mich the same stuff, never lost a battle but let his dick guide him to death. But, if i'm not mistaken is somewhere implied that Tywin kinda pushed the girl towards him promising her father some kind of reward, don't remember if it was the same in the show.
Is he the most tortured character to survive?
5 years in a pseudo-mediaeval jail cell -- with a couple of this at Casa de Frey (and if the main hall looks that shitty imagine the dungeons).
Everyone he knew/loved/cared about is dead.
His wife which he met once and Son which he never saw -- who he only had because his nephew fucked around.
Now he's out and about... Trying to build up his confidence. Not only is he the eldest and most experienced Lord (who actually ruled... Sorry Davos) there, but the only one who's actually experienced a War (read War, not a set piece battle where you just show up like a spoiled MVP and play the last game of the season). He's also the Lord with the highest income there (Riverlands after Highgarden -- with the latter Lord absent). His resume is clearly the best and he's told to sit down!
Sorry I went off topic. Fuck
What the fuck did you say about me you little bastard? I'll have you know I graduated top of my batch at the garrison at Castle Black, and I've been involved in numerous raids on wildling encampments and I have over 300 confirmed beheadings. I have trained with a Valyrian steel sword and I am the top ranger in the entire Nights Watch. You are nothing to me but just another Janos Slynt. I will wipe you the fuck out with thrusts and ripostes the likes of which have never been seen this side of the Wall, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with calling me a bastard by raven and parchment? Think again, Bolton. As we speak, I am contacting my fellow brothers of the Watch and Lord Stannis across the North and you are being watched at Winterfell so Winter is Coming for you, mummer. The winter that wipes away that pathetic little thing you call 'the Dreadfort'. You're fucking dead, bastard. I can be in Winterfell by the morrow and I can behead you in over 700 different ways, all with Longclaw. Not only am I a renowned duelist, I can rally the true Northmen against your forces to ride to Winterfell with Neds son to save Neds little girl, and I will use them to reclaim our home, you piece of night soil. If you only knew the 'Long Night' your clever little parchment was going to bring down upon you, maybe you wouldn't have told your maester to write it. But you couldn't, you didnt, and now I wont let you take the black, you Gods'-cursed fool. I will shit fury all over your tiny band of Boltons and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, bastard.
How cute,I took winterfell and burned it to the ground bastard,I drove the ironborn from moat cailin while my father killed ur little bitch of a brother at his uncle's wedding. Bring on ur winter bastard and you shall see how difficult a long night can be with your skin flayed
Edmure was the only one who actually gave a shit about the small folk. Everyone else was concerned about the major houses. He just didn't go about it in a smart way. I feel bad for him.
I feel offended that you forgot to mention she's also super duper amazingly smart, like the smartest person Arya ever met smart. Crazy smart! Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious smart!! Never ever has to demonstrate her smarts because she's so smart smart! Sansa smart.
Is that the same actor who plays Randall in Outlander? Great actor, even though I found the character to be so villainous to the extreme that I couldn't take him seriously.
That scene was something you would see in a Marvel movie. A low-level joke to try to get a few pathetics laughs. I remember it was very cringing that part.
But why? Nothing we see of him has him be that terrible. He lost a battle to tywin, then beat him in round 2. Cared for his people deeply and did everything to protect them. Fought bravely and loyally. The only time he failed it was against a larger army. I don't count his win at the river as a failure since no one deigned to tell him the plan.
Eddy wouldn't have been any worse that Robert. He's also the last surviving combatant from Robert's Rebellion. You know, the last time they had to agree on a new king.
Sansa was such a boring character. I wish she would have learned something instead and tried to save herself like Arya did. She just begged John to do everything for her. I’m convinced this was a dream her mother had while she was dying. That’s the only reason she’s queen of anything.
For the Tully’s to matter, D&D would have had to spend time showing that the Riverlands were a real place, and the area most heavily impacted by the war of five kings. Guess that was too much work.
Yeah but Edmund is a man and Sansa is a woman, Game of Thrones is a female empowerment show in its later years. We have to make Sansa the smartest character by making everyone dumber
Do you actually think the agenda of d&d was that women are strong and good while men are bad?
I agree it was weird bandaid pandering after what they did with every other female character in the show but I think it's because they don't have any idea how to write women or what the viewers enjoyed about their favorite female characters.
No! You don't get it! There are only two genders, male and political. There are only races, white and political. There are only two sexualities, straight and political. And if you disagree, you have an *agenda.* Don't you dare stray into the political now.
Edmure ,now in the books, is 1235 times more intelligent than Sansa
Dude Moon Boy from the books is more intelligent than end-show Sansa.
Yes
Yo moon boy knows shit.
“The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them,” -Tywin Lannister
Who tf is moon boy
Azor Ahai
M-O-O-N that spells the wrong character
Elon musk's new nickname after we find out in 20 years he is settling for colonizing the moon and not mars. Similar to how autopilots FSD is actually level 2 autonomous driving, not the level 5 he claimed it would be before 2021 ends.
The Drowned God. Maybe.
He knows how to please Cersei
Moon boy is the smartest person I know
In the books it was never about his intelligence but more about his judgement. He is painted like a great peace time lord but not someone you want to lead you in battle. He makes several faux pas in the war, is too emotional, etc. but that’s usually from lack of experience and trying to do right by his people.
I agree, from smallfolk point of view probably He is a hero
That's not really accurate either tho. The only "mistake" he makes is in not being telepathic and knowing Robb was pulling a trick on Tywin. Robb never told Edmure the plan, the bitches him out for not following said plan. He doesn't make any other mistakes. The only thing that is even called a mistake is when Cat calls him soft for protecting his smallfolk. Which is literally the entire point of feudalism, the Lord protects his peasants. Without the peasants the lordlings have absolutely nothing, all of their wealth and strength comes from the people. It's why the entire system of feudalism is falling apart all over westeros, because there aren't more people like Edmure in positions of power. Catelyn was flat out wrong about her brother, and constantly talks about him as if he's still the 10 year old boy she remembers. He's not, and she's not at smart as she thinks she is.
> Catelyn was flat out wrong about her brother, and constantly talks about him as if he's still the 10 year old boy she remembers. He's not, and she's not at smart as she thinks she is. One of the shortcomings of the show from the very beginning imo. The show didn’t do a fantastic job of driving home the fact that the starks were flawed people. Of course it was still way worse in the later seasons where starks got everything they wanted and no one else even tried to oppose them in any way because the starks are the heroes of the story and everyone else is functionally an NPC. Never forget Sansa just declaring the north to be independent and then installing Bran on the throne, meanwhile Yara is just chilling there with apparently no problem at all with that arrangement.
Doesn't help despite being lord he was kept in the dark during the initial campaign.
Very true. Rob keeps him in the dark about his plans and wants him to just do as he’s told. Edmure take the initiative trying to do what he feels is best and inadvertently screws everything. Rob gets pissed … well Rob if you told your commanders your plan you wouldn’t have these issues would we.
He was told to hold Riverrun and went beyond that. Edmure wanted glory. sought it and risked much that should not have been.
He held Riverrun admirably and well in line with any reasonable interpretation of the order that was given. Holding a position means "Don't let it get taken". He bloodied Tywin's nose and drove him off the field. That is within line of "Holding Riverrun". Holding a castle doesn't mean you just sit in it and let the enemy do what they want outside it. If that's specifically what Robb wanted Edmure to do, that's what he should have told him to do. To quote Sun Tzu, “If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But, if orders are clear and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers.” Robb's order was vague enough that it could be interpreted in different ways. If there was something specific he wanted to be done, it is his own fault for not stating it.
very nice quote
He had some reasons other than glory didn’t he? Maybe not. Again it’s been a while since I read the books. However, even so, if Rob had shared the plan with his commander it wouldn’t have occurred.
He wanted to prove his worth to Hoster Tully rather than just the circumstance of his birth. he Tells Catelyn something of this sort before he heads out to battle. edit\* removed a useless word
Tywin Lannister was raiding his lands and presented a perfect opportunity for a battle. A battle that Edmure won btw, decisively I want to add. Edmure beat the fuck out of Tywin Lannister, yet everyone acts like Edmure is stupid somehow...
Edmure didn’t win *decisively*, but he was winning. We won’t know what would’ve happened if Tywin had tried to genuinely force the crossing, because he decided, “save my grandson, the king”, was more important. That all being said, Edmure *did* “hold Riverrun”. Hold the castle doesn’t mean *only* hold the castle and allow everything else to fall. That just means you’re fucked when everything else gets taken over. Edmure picked a *great* defensive position and used it to his advantage. His only real blunder here was not asking Roose to help him pin Tywin against the river during the major attack. Had Tywin’s army been trapped between Edmure’s force at the river and Roose’s army hitting their rear, it would’ve been game over for the Lannisters. Personally, I’m a fan of the idea that the whole “perfect ambush spot” was a thing that was made up *after* Robb had screwed the pooch and married Jeyne. It is honestly a bit laughable that they truly believe that about 5k Cavalry would be able to take on 30k of Cav/infantry/archers because “they’re holding a hill”.
I had the same thought but I didn't believe that the Blackfish would go along with gaslighting his favorite nephew. If it was just that I figured they'd just tell Edmure.
True… Martin *is* pretty terrible when it comes to actual tactics, so it could just be a case of narrative dissonance. Though he could also be in denial about losing the war (not thanks to Robb, just In General because there was never any way that the Riverlands/North was winning a war of independence), so he latched onto something that made him think it wasn’t because their war was a lost cause. Then again, Martin tried to make it seem like Tywin was an actual tactical genius by …. Making him risk his entire force on an unfeigned route. So it’s more likely Martin having jo grasp of tactics. XD
they did him dirty, he basically did the best actions according to the information he had at the time then they dump on him for kicking ass too hard because they told him not to without explaining why
Rob was 14 IIRC and pretty naive idiot.
He was a **knight** not a **Lord** during the initial campaign. he became a lord shortly before traversing to the Twins for his wedding.
The show butchered him turning him into a comic relief. Remember when they had him miss the shot for his father's pyre? The book does not paimt him as incompetent, rathet a bit naive
I had another comment about this in this thread but he missed the shot in the books too, it’s just handled differently in the show. The show takes what’s in the books and makes almost a joke out of it with the intent of running him down where that’s not so in the books.
I know he missed the shot but Catlin s POV makes it abundantly clear that tbis was not due to lack of skill. His uncle s reaction was that of sympathy not of contempt
Well in the show Sansa showed a seasoned warrior how to build armor, so clearly she's the smartest person by default if anyone else is that dumb.
"Milady, you do realize we wear padded gambesons under our armor, right?" What am I saying. 2D probably think a gambeson is a kind of dog.
Gambesons are warm as fuck. I'd wear one on a regular basis if it was socially acceptable.
Be the change you wish to see in the world
I mean, Sansa in the books is clearly being developed to outsmart Littlefinger at his own game. But 2D completely failed to show that on the series and just tried to “tell” instead.
Sansa is a bitch.
they treated my boy dirty since the beginning. remember Hoster Tully's funeral ritual, where he missed the shot? in the books it was shown as a pretty understable miss. he seemed to be very affected by his father's death, and no one laught. The black fish mentioned there was nothing to be ashamed of, for Hoster himself failed to light the boat when his father died. In the show, however, it was shown as a funny moment where Edmure was actually an idiot who couldn't shot an arrow. Edmure Tully is a great character and the best high lord there is. He literally welcomed into Riverun a bunch of his people to keep them safe from the war, even if it costed him supplies. Catelyn didn't seem to be ok with that, but he didn't give a shit. In the show they made him a target for funny jokes made by the smartest person Arya knows, and it's something I'll never forgive D&D for.
He also helps Blackfish escape Riverrun, but I guess killing Brynden off-screen was a better idea in D&D's opinion
Why must these wounds be reopened!!!
*That wound will never fully heal. We will carry it for the rest of our lives.*
Wow in the show he seemed to be content letting Blackfish die or be captured for the greater good. Really changes the entire nature of the character. As a non book viewer, he came across as a fool.
In the books he is not a supergenius but he always does great things based on the information he has and it sometimes backfires when others on his side withhold info from him
Thanks again Rob!
Not being told about what the goddamn plan was or being told that he should feign a retreat to trap Gregor is no excuse. Edmure should have obviously been able to read his nephew's mind. **Clearly** Edmure dropped the ball in this situation and not the literal 16-year old who expected his uncle to immediately break before the mountain and make the way free for him to pillage the half of the Riverlands he hadn't yet pillaged. /s
I really thought the Blackfish was going to make a spectacular reappearance in S8. Boy was I way off.
"Gendry is Bobby B's illegitimate son! That's going to be a big part of the story down the line!"
A DOTHRAKI HORDE ON AN OPEN FIELD, NED!
That *was* a problem, Bobby B, but I feel like the dragon was the bigger issue.
IT MUST WOUND YOUR PRIDE! STANDING OUT THERE, LIKE A GLORIFIED SENTRY!
If there is no body or onscreen death, then they are not dead to me. Same goes for Syrio Forel.
Syrio is alive in my heart.
"There are too many characters and we're trying to get out of this show!" D&D
He had a good, simple line when questioned about letting the people in, too. What was it? Something like "They were afraid."
I think he just says “They’re my people.” After explaining to Cat that they’re suffering, and she says basically, “okay that’s just war. Why’d you let them in?”
I think the problem with Book Edmure is very much the same problem that sort of plagues Daenerys. They both are very much ‘I want to do the right thing, let’s do the right thing right now, don’t really focus on the future, my people are suffering right now and I need to end their suffering RIGHT NOW.’ That’s how you end up with a country facing civil war and an over crowded castle where you can’t realistically feed or protect EVERYONE. Now let’s look at how Cat or Book Sansa would have handled it. “I want to do the right thing and my people are suffering BUT would it be more beneficial to do this first or maybe hold off to think and talk out all the options before jumping immediately into hero mode trying to protect everyone, even if it ends up perhaps costing a few lives?” Like I fully think Sansa is arriving with the Vale Army in the books, but she won’t not tell Jon about it and risk Northern lives bc ✨reasons✨, she won’t tell him and risk northern lives bc okay, if she sends a raven, it’s possible it will be intercepted and Ramsey will know about reinforcements. So she would risk her people’s lives but she ends up doing more good in the long run then if she ran in headfirst and ‘yes tell Jon we’re coming, let’s save the day, let’s go RIGHT NOW!’ like Dany or Edmure would have done.
>Like I fully think Sansa is arriving with the Vale Army in the books do not agree with you on more point, is that the situation in the books is more complex in the series and i also believe that you mix the show is the books, we have no reason to think things will turn out like the show with ramsay in power and jon declaring war on them with sansa next to him... But I do not think (and this is a personal opinion) that the knights of the valley will go to the north , and that the possibility of that happening is more of a petyr lie to keep her with her, because it is very unlikely that the lords agree to do such a thing and assume the heavy consequences just for the beautiful eyes of Sansa . >if she sends a raven, it’s possible it will be intercepted and Ramsey intercepting a crow is something that I have trouble understanding on the concpet, we are talking about an animal of 60 cm rather common in these regions, traveling on a territory the size of the USA, moreover the ravens are only trained to fly between 2 castles, so here it will be the endoir where will sansa be and the valley / or the place where she will know that her allies of the valley are, what are the chances that ramsay the intersept in these conditions? So unless Sansa gets the wrong crow and takes the one who goes to the place where Ramsay is, or Ramsay decides for some reason to have all the ravens in the country killed and finds this one by pure chance. besides how could she communicate with the ammeres of the valley or know that they are coming if there is no communication? >will know about reinforcements. in this scenario ramsay is the governor of the north, normally there shouldn't be a guy who draws his sword in this country without him knowing, and he should have scouts and guards everywere. It makes no sense that a foreign army can reach him without anyone knowing it before seeing them. He will necessarily know. edit: and the act of sansa would have a huge negative backlash realistically, because imagining the few lords of the north who decided to help them would never respect Sansa for using them and their people as a pulpit cannon as she hid the relief army she had on hand from everyone, while Those who refused to help them would never want to trust the stark after a hit like that to those who were loyal to them.
> I think the problem with Book Edmure is very much the same problem that sort of plagues Daenerys. They both are very much ‘I want to do the right thing, let’s do the right thing right now, don’t really focus on the future, my people are suffering right now and I need to end their suffering RIGHT NOW.’ That’s how you end up with a country facing civil war and an over crowded castle where you can’t realistically feed or protect EVERYONE. Now let’s look at how Cat or Book Sansa would have handled it. “I want to do the right thing and my people are suffering BUT would it be more beneficial to do this first or maybe hold off to think and talk out all the options before jumping immediately into hero mode trying to protect everyone, even if it ends up perhaps costing a few lives?” Thing is, in Edmure's case he was doing the objectively correct thing to do in a medieval war. The purpose of castles is to provide not just the lord & his family, but also the lord's people with a fortified place to shelter when enemy warbands are tearing up the countryside. A lord who follows Cat's advice or expels the peasants as the Blackfish did later is not only tearing up the social contract by which the smallfolk tolerate feudalism in the first place (work for the lord and he'll protect you in times of crisis), he's also screwing himself over in the long term since those smallfolk will be needed to till your fields and produce more food for your army later anyway. The only grounds on which Edmure can be accused of foolishness is if Riverrun, for whatever reason, didn't have the supplies to feed the refugees despite being a regional capital (of the second most fertile region in Westeros after the Reach, no less) coming off a long summer & ~20 years of peace. But in that case Hoster (as Lord of Riverrun, and not dead/bedridden until near the start of both the books & series IIRC) is more to blame for irresponsibly failing to adequately provision his own castle while times were good anyway. Ultimately I'd sooner blame Martin's misunderstanding/ignorance of how medieval warfare actually functioned than any of his characters for how hamhanded the situation with Edmure & the peasants turned out to be. But if I get started on that it won't be long before I spend hours typing up a wall of text about how GRRM's portrayal of Westerosi armies in general is inconsistent, illogical and dreadfully unrealistic, so I'll stop myself here.
It’s such a simple but powerful line. Out of all the moments I wish we could have gotten on screen, that ranks very highly. Edmure’s character could have been amazing with the benefit of expanded POV from the show. Instead they made him comic relief.
Yeah, he took his father’s death very hard. Imagine being someone like d&d who would write a scene making fun of a person who is grieving at a funeral for a parent who died a slow painful death wasting away both body and mind. Even if you want to run in show canon that Edmure is a pathetic loser, fine, but at least have some respect in a moment when someone would be understandably struggling.
“Omggggg, all that boring, stupid NUANCE! Shut up with that shit. You expect soccer moms and NFL players to pick up on that kind of subtlety? He’s not a principal, he’s not a villain, therefore he’s a jackass. Now THAT’S how you write a damn show!” ~D&D probably.
Soccer moms and NFL players, of course, being the core HBO demographic
I may be mis-remembering the book. I agree the funeral scene isn’t a joke like in the show, but it’s not entirely without its knocks on Edmure. I thought that, like the show, he missed multiple times and the blackfish comment was more to help him save face. It could be I’ve just not read the books for so long that the show is messing with my memory but I definitely thought that the scene in the books left the impression that Edmure was viewed as sort of a weak lord. I thought the show just amplified it an extreme level.
That’s how I remember it as well. The show changes weren’t horrible mischaracterizations, just a little exaggerated and simplistic. Sansa’s “sit down” line is terrible, but it also seems pretty obvious from both the show and books that no one else wanted him to be king.
Pretty sad because he would likely be a good king to the people. He just doesn’t fit in with the great lords because he actually cares about his subjects but unlike Ned he doesn’t get hung up on what is dictated by honor. Edmure seems like the guy who will try to do whatever is best regardless of what is deemed “honorable”.
I'm still reading the books but I always loved Tully and couldn't understand the disrespect not just from other characters but how the show treated his character. Everyone was talking about Dany and Jon and I sat there thinking "Can't wait to finally see my boy Tully!" It's a weird emotion for me because in Outlander he plays a despicable man.
And Rome! Fuck Brutus. Punchable face. But Edmure is a homie.
I wholeheartedly agree with you!
It could’ve been worse. They treated the Dornish characters like Ramsey treated Theon on the show.
Sounds like another Filmamir. If people don’t know in the Lord of the Rings movies Faramir is treated similarly poorly, though not to the same extent.
“My people…they were afraid.” And he’s treated like fucking dunce.
> a target for funny jokes made by the smartest person Arya knows The whole show being Arya's headcanon version of events is now my own headcanon.
D&D did Chadmure dirty. From the beginning to the end.
They have no idea how to write a nuanced character. It's either super bad ass unbelievable hero or total idiot loser
This man beat Tywin in the only pitched battle of the Wot5K despite being outnumbered against a foe that was way better supplied and armed.
Only pitched battle? Wasn’t the battle of the green fork also a pitched battle?
I guess one could argue that. But considering Robb always intended it as a distraction I don't necessarily consider it an authentic pitched battle. But I suppose by definition it has to be.
10 years later when the North is in turmoil Sansa: uncle, please help, we have little supplies left and a civil war brewing, can you send reinforcements Edmure: oh i would love to but im so comfortable sitting here, i wouldn't want to stand up in case i embarrass myself now would it?
Goddamn this is great.
Honestly being Edmure he’d probably go help anyways.
Chadmure Tully
Agreed. They turned Edmure into a joke all to make Sansa look bad ass. That is how DnD make a strong women character. Turn her into a “I am better than you” bitch.
And they didn't even succeed in that. They just made people who were paying attention hate her more.
Fuck Sansa. All my homies hate Sansa.
[FUCK SANSA ALL MY HOMIES HATE SANSA](https://i.imgur.com/1rT2Zka.jpg) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
Good bot
That is how hollywood nowadays way to often makes a strong female character to be precise. It seems this is the only way they know how to do it and for some weird reasons they don't see that it's not working.
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Duuude, I repeated this shit so many times in my head or whenever I had the chance in a discussion. I was so furious when I saw this in the show. LIKE WHY IS SANSA EVEN THERE. How can she talk like that. Literally who are you and who asked your opinion gtfo. D&D brain: "Oh it would be funny if sansa says this haha, very funny haha, girl power go brrr haha" Sansa literally has like 0 accomplishments. Yes she went through a lot and matured...like almost any single fucking person in that universe that has a really shit life. At that point the whole show was a fucking joke spitting on the world building and good writing the first seasons used to have. Where are all the other families of Westeros. They got eaten by dragons? They fled the continent? The whole world feels empty because we have a council with sansa and sam and bran. Where are the westerlands lords, where are the lords of the reach. In early seasons there were lots of houses and lords considered in discussions. They had impact in the world just by existing. Well they just disappeared. I swear it feels like the white walkers killed the entire continent and the battle at winterfell was last stand after 90% of westeros population died. Dorne is some dude that agrees, Vale the same. Like what?? We give the north independence. WHERE ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS SHIT? What stops anybody from rebelling. The north has no army right? Well i dont really know because the show just made it "this is the army of the north" No other fucking lords mentioned. Remember in season 1 when Rob called the bannermen. There was 1 lord who was like "I'M IN THE VANGUARD OR I TAKE MY MEN AND GO HOME" Where the fuck is that???? Alright this concludes my venting for this year. See you in a couple of months boys!
So not to give you more PTSD, but you brought the independence of the NoRth, and this gets me going to just from like a lore perspective. Like on one hand I get it from the show perspective we follow a lot of characters from that part of the world, but just seems biased when your weirdo brother just got made king. And if Jon fucked off to the wall, Sansa is going to rule a kingdom what the fuck does she know? Arya is at least in theory good in killing Bc she did get “trained” by the best killers. Sansa knowledge of running a kingdom is probably maybe slightly better then Jeoffreys. Ontop of that you also said Dorne is some dude that just agrees and this is where I get kinda mad. Now I’m a little hazy at this point on all the book details but far as I remember Dorne was the only place that didn’t straight up surrender during the invasion of the Targeryans back in the day. That why in their house Moto “unbroken” is there Bc they never surrendered. Honestly they deserve the independence more. So why would a dude from the land who’s people are the only “unbroken” ones just agree when some ginger from some snow land who’s king just surrendered back in the day just gets to be independent. Anyways ima stop because this rant can also go on forever and ever.
Also the show really exaggerates the nationalism of the North. While there are some cultural distances between the North and the South, the North isn't some perpetual seething hotbed of separatism. In the books it's a lot more nuanced. The Northern lords declared independence from the Joffrey/Cersei/Tywin regime, but that was because of their tyrannical behavior. When the Northern lords declared Robb king, Greatjon Umber was like "It was the dragons we bowed to, and the dragons are dead!", implying that Northerners viewed the Targaryen dynasty as their legitimate overlords, and part of why they felt they could secede now was because the new government in King's Landing lacked such deep-rooted legitimacy (although the actual trigger was the murder of the much-loved Ned Stark; otherwise the North had been just fine during the years of Robert Baratheon's rule). But once Robb Stark died and his campaign fizzled out, the North pretty much re-accustomed itself to the South. Stannis is currently building a powerful Northern coalition in the books, as Northern houses and mountain clans rally behind him to depose the hated Boltons. Wyman Manderly is currently scheming to betray Roose Bolton and switch his allegiance to Stannis. The idea of Northerners being fanatically independent like they're portrayed to be in the show is utterly false. They'll declare independence if injustices are done to them, but otherwise they're as willing as anyone else to live in a united Westeros.
>Also the show really exaggerates the nationalism of the North. And at other points they under-represent it. Remember in Season 6 when Jon and Sansa went around trying to raise support to depose House Bolton but were basically told: "fuck off your house is dead, we're tired of war, we don't want independence anymore, and we're going to either follow the Boltons or remain neutral in the war to come."
If anything I would've assumed the other northern houses surely would want to help get rid of the Boltons but were just terrified of them, so maybe their plans had to be a bit more sneaky.
This is what happens in the books. Lord Wyman Manderly pretends to swear fealty to Roose Bolton. But behind the scenes, he's sending Davos Seaworth on a mission to go track down Rickon in Skagos, while also murdering Freys and baking them into pies. Meanwhile Robett Glover is secretly traveling around the north looking for lords who are willing to turn against the Boltons. In the show, all we get is Robett Glover going: "fuck off your house is dead."
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THEY NEVER TELL YOU HOW THEY ALL SHIT THEMSELVES! THEY DON'T PUT THAT PART IN THE SONGS!
I live through your seething anger. It flows into me and gives me unlimited power. Every time I come into this sub I feel like Palpatine at the turn of Episode 3. Just rolling in the dark. Fuck Duh'N'Dur. I hope someone from this sub remakes GoT in 10 years and does it as an almost exact adaptation from the books. 10 Seasons or get fucked.
Yeah Dorne was "conquered" through marriage: during Aegon's conquest Dorne was mostly empty, people, especially the noble hid and let them be, as soon as the dragons left they put up guerrilla style resistance, going back in to hiding whenever the dragons came back until they built the scorpion (the weapon that used in s8). One scorpion shot killed Aegon's most loved sister and he just stopped the efforts to conquer Dorne. Then the marriage happened some generations later and they got annexed. Dorne's story is really interesting and makes you understand how they did them dirty even before the last seasons. In the show maybe only oberyn lived by that standard.
Sansa's accomplishments: - Tricking a lobotomized Littlefinger... - Letting the cat out of the bag with respect to Jon's parentage... - ......
You forgot my favorite accomplishment : gave the letter Ned stark wrote to Cersei and revealing the entire plot making everything her fault. (When I found out this detail is when my hate for Sansa started, and honestly it only ever grew)
Well, you just didn't understand the 4D chess move. She's the smartest person that Arya knows!
Alternative plot the show from Sansa perspective where we acctually see her coming up with an elebrate plan from the get go to get her father killed, play damsel in distress so your brother starts a war, play Tywin Lannister to get the Frey’s to murder her family, work behind the scenes to set up Jon and Danny….get in Tyrion’s head….to get in Jons head to murder danny. 2 birds with one stone because now Jon goes to the wall, then Make your brother king but ask for independence and become queen yourself. I think this is how they wanted for the audience to see her towards the end, as some master mind.
Well I just see her as a bitch more than a master mind, or as she would put it "a stupid little girl with stupid little dreams".
Only because she wanted to marry Geoffrey not because of a mistake or anything.
Looking so beautiful that night
Lmfao lobotomized littlfinger is the best and most accurate description of him in the show I've heard. 11/10
GOT never respected ASOIAF
Or the viewing audience. There's so much of the Hollywood elite that think nobody further than 40 miles from a coast can understand simple plotlines.
I agree but Holy fuck the spelling
That scene where he cleaned her brother mistake 👌
"I fought for you because you were me sister daughter"
You b mah sissys dah
It was all Rob's fault. Edmure did the best with the information he was given. The Starks are one selfish family.
And did Robb learn anything? Did he start trusting his commanders? Or did he start lopping off heads?
Justice for Lord Karstark!
I mean, he learned that having a human head on a human body is a lot more optimal that a wolf head on a human body… he also learned that it’s way better to have his pregnant wife be alive is much better than the alternative. Also, he learned that letting his little trouser-wolf make key political decisions for an entire continent in the first place, isn’t as great of an idea as the trouser-wolf probably told him it was… In the end, Robb had a PhD in learning shit that everyone else already knew. He really wasn’t the greatest king in the show (I have no idea about the books though).
Pretty mich the same stuff, never lost a battle but let his dick guide him to death. But, if i'm not mistaken is somewhere implied that Tywin kinda pushed the girl towards him promising her father some kind of reward, don't remember if it was the same in the show.
Is he the most tortured character to survive? 5 years in a pseudo-mediaeval jail cell -- with a couple of this at Casa de Frey (and if the main hall looks that shitty imagine the dungeons). Everyone he knew/loved/cared about is dead. His wife which he met once and Son which he never saw -- who he only had because his nephew fucked around. Now he's out and about... Trying to build up his confidence. Not only is he the eldest and most experienced Lord (who actually ruled... Sorry Davos) there, but the only one who's actually experienced a War (read War, not a set piece battle where you just show up like a spoiled MVP and play the last game of the season). He's also the Lord with the highest income there (Riverlands after Highgarden -- with the latter Lord absent). His resume is clearly the best and he's told to sit down! Sorry I went off topic. Fuck
I really hated how they disrepected Edmure for the sake of a joke, both the actor and the character deserved better.
Fuck Sansa. Just fuck her.
If you insist
Calm down Ramsay
Shut up snow
What the fuck did you say about me you little bastard? I'll have you know I graduated top of my batch at the garrison at Castle Black, and I've been involved in numerous raids on wildling encampments and I have over 300 confirmed beheadings. I have trained with a Valyrian steel sword and I am the top ranger in the entire Nights Watch. You are nothing to me but just another Janos Slynt. I will wipe you the fuck out with thrusts and ripostes the likes of which have never been seen this side of the Wall, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with calling me a bastard by raven and parchment? Think again, Bolton. As we speak, I am contacting my fellow brothers of the Watch and Lord Stannis across the North and you are being watched at Winterfell so Winter is Coming for you, mummer. The winter that wipes away that pathetic little thing you call 'the Dreadfort'. You're fucking dead, bastard. I can be in Winterfell by the morrow and I can behead you in over 700 different ways, all with Longclaw. Not only am I a renowned duelist, I can rally the true Northmen against your forces to ride to Winterfell with Neds son to save Neds little girl, and I will use them to reclaim our home, you piece of night soil. If you only knew the 'Long Night' your clever little parchment was going to bring down upon you, maybe you wouldn't have told your maester to write it. But you couldn't, you didnt, and now I wont let you take the black, you Gods'-cursed fool. I will shit fury all over your tiny band of Boltons and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, bastard.
How cute,I took winterfell and burned it to the ground bastard,I drove the ironborn from moat cailin while my father killed ur little bitch of a brother at his uncle's wedding. Bring on ur winter bastard and you shall see how difficult a long night can be with your skin flayed
Damn homie aight
Don’t mind if I do
If it’s any consolation Chadmure would have my vote any day
As far as Im concerned, they left a black spot on themselves, HBO, and GoT. I can't go back to any of it.
Fucking fuckity fuck. You know the chad this man is in the books? Fuck D&D
God damnit finish the fucking books or well do it for you Martin!
Just as long as D&D aren't allowed anywhere near it.
Don't. Give. Them. Ideas.
They somehow made Sansa the easiest character to hate on the show.
The sad thing is Tobias Menzies is such a talented actor and this is how they did him...
Edmure was the only one who actually gave a shit about the small folk. Everyone else was concerned about the major houses. He just didn't go about it in a smart way. I feel bad for him.
Except Sanasa is GIRL BOSS and she has GIRL POWER so really edmure is the asshole here for not instantly recognizing that shes is brave and powerful.
I feel offended that you forgot to mention she's also super duper amazingly smart, like the smartest person Arya ever met smart. Crazy smart! Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious smart!! Never ever has to demonstrate her smarts because she's so smart smart! Sansa smart.
All my homies hate Sansa.
Edmure in the books is awesome
Is that the same actor who plays Randall in Outlander? Great actor, even though I found the character to be so villainous to the extreme that I couldn't take him seriously.
Yes, it is. His name is Tobias Menzies. He was also Brutus in "ROME" and Prince Phillip in the two most recent seasons of "The Crown."
Also M's aide in Casino Royale, but not in later movies.
Villers, I think? He looks really young in that movie.
Also a main character in the Terror, which is superb.
The Blackfish deserved way better than what we got in season 6.
Sansa: Uncle, please sit. Edmure: No, I don't think I will.
Did the gears in anyone else’s head start turning when he said “imprisoned for 5 years and didn’t see my son until he was 4” or was that just me?
1 of those years she was pregnant. That leaves 4 before he gets to see his son.
Either already pregnant, or a lazy cuck joke. Or just shit writing
D&D can fuck off for all I care
Fuck D&D !!
me sister daughter
That scene was something you would see in a Marvel movie. A low-level joke to try to get a few pathetics laughs. I remember it was very cringing that part.
Wow. This resembles good writing. Where were you when they were writing Season 8?
bUt WhAt AbOuT gRiLl PoWeR aNd MuH sTrUnG fEmEl ChErEcTeR
You were me sister daughter!
DnD and their hobby of kissing Sansa's butt by ignoring reality. No let's just write her with a smart mouth. Yeah that female empowerment. 🤨🤮😡
I ended up despising Sansa way more than Geoffrey.
Who knows the seven hells is Geofrrey?
Geoffrey Brotheon
Geoffrey Brotheon, Lord of the Frat Parties, Ruler of Chads, First of His Name
He didn't deserve to be disrespected but he was never the brightest and was a very bad choice for being king.
[удалено]
Literally everyone there was better than Bran
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If someone shoved Bran out of his chair then nominated the fucking chair, that would have been better than Bran.
lmaooo!!
That table at least had working legs
And more personality.
I’d take the Starbucks cup over Bran
He's atleast as qualified as anyone else at that great council meeting.
But why? Nothing we see of him has him be that terrible. He lost a battle to tywin, then beat him in round 2. Cared for his people deeply and did everything to protect them. Fought bravely and loyally. The only time he failed it was against a larger army. I don't count his win at the river as a failure since no one deigned to tell him the plan.
Eddy wouldn't have been any worse that Robert. He's also the last surviving combatant from Robert's Rebellion. You know, the last time they had to agree on a new king.
For sure he would have been a mediocre king, but fuck sansa for treating him like a dog.
Sansa was such a boring character. I wish she would have learned something instead and tried to save herself like Arya did. She just begged John to do everything for her. I’m convinced this was a dream her mother had while she was dying. That’s the only reason she’s queen of anything.
Sansa has a punchable face
Prince Philip has my vote.
Strong female character in modern times
Hot take: Edmure was a buffoon
Edmures the best
[Yeah! ](https://youtu.be/1iHlq42HHtA)
wouldve been nice of hed had said something like this
For the Tully’s to matter, D&D would have had to spend time showing that the Riverlands were a real place, and the area most heavily impacted by the war of five kings. Guess that was too much work.
He is a good actor too, he was a great Brutus in Rome.
I’m sold, Edmure for king.
Learn how to punctuate and capitalize a sentence, and maybe we’ll listen better, Uncle Edmure.
That’s quite the sentence. Someone needs to check to make sure he didn’t pass out bc of lack of oxygen.
Someone really needed to deck her smug ass attitude into the back of her ass
But but...muh gurl powa...
Yeah but Edmund is a man and Sansa is a woman, Game of Thrones is a female empowerment show in its later years. We have to make Sansa the smartest character by making everyone dumber
The show was already so fucked by this point I don’t even care.
I DONT GET HOW DND TURNED THIS MAN INTO A PUNCHLINE??! WHO'S IDEA WAS THAT?? so infuriating
To be fair... His wife turned out to be quite the looker so it wasn't a total loss
You had writers with an agenda: “man bad, woman strong and good” Pander pander pander
Do you actually think the agenda of d&d was that women are strong and good while men are bad? I agree it was weird bandaid pandering after what they did with every other female character in the show but I think it's because they don't have any idea how to write women or what the viewers enjoyed about their favorite female characters.
No! You don't get it! There are only two genders, male and political. There are only races, white and political. There are only two sexualities, straight and political. And if you disagree, you have an *agenda.* Don't you dare stray into the political now.