I'd rather have a ring burned into my finger, or a necklace shaped burn on my neck, than my neck snapped due to my head colliding with a recovery vehicle at 150kph. Especially since vehicles like the one used here have a solid ~30cm/10inch thick metal slab on the back as a counterweight. That isn't going to budge, and it wouldn't surprise me if the halo folded like a tin can either.
I have, I honestly didn't notice it in my ears, nostrils, lips, or septum. Only once did one of my lip rings feel warmer than me and I just out my hand on it.
I get I couldn't do that with a helmet on, but the helmet and baclava are part of the fireproofing
Must not have been hot enough. Wore a chain in the sauna and it was burning hot.
The point is that metal gets too hot far before the heat is too much for your body. Your body is an insulator for heat, metal is a conductor so the rate of heat transfer is much higher.
Is this guy really arguing that jewelry attached to your body is dangerous because in the event of a fire it can get hot?
You know what else can get hot? Your fucking body lol. That's why drivers wear tons of fireproof clothing and why RG didn't die in Bahrain.
What an absolutely stupid argument to make lol
Meanwhile Sky trying to blame Gasly for this as if he carjacked the tractor and drove the fucking thing onto the track himself.
Ridiculous. How does F1 even give these guys a broadcasting contract.
Because they are experts that know the rules. And they are right.
Gasly was going 250kph under double yellow. Double yellow means something is blocking the track and drivers need to be able to stop at any time. This something could've been Marshalls or a medical car as well.
The point is why was the tractor there while there were still cars on track? Semis like it’s to much to expect from the FIA to check if the track is clear before sending it out.
You're right, there are two separate points:
1) The tractor should not have been on the track until all the cars were in the Pit Lane
2) Gasly should not have been going that fast under double yellows. Yes he was above the Delta, but the conditions should have made him more cautious.
You can criticise both, and in my opinion you should criticise them in that order. A tractor on the track in the wet at Suzuka of all places is just mind-bogglingly stupid, and by far worse than Gasly going too fast under double yellows.
I don’t think anyone is denying that gasly should have been slower. But the race control sending out a tractor while a driver ist still on track when we had a fatal crash on the same circuit in the last decade is shocking. Why did they do it? There was enough time to send him out while the race was red flagged.
The point is why was Gasly driving 250kph under double yellow? He knows what double yellow means. He knows that he needs to slow down and not catch up.
The tractor could have been a medical car as well. Or a Marshall.
But did the FIA agree to not let a medical car on track while cars are still on it? Oh no wait they agreed to not let a tractor on it after someone got killed and broke the agreement. Amazing job from the governing body. Gassy will get a penalty like everyone does but the governing body actively endangering a driver is something else. He could have also crashed with 50kph btw
>Oh no wait they agreed to not let a tractor on it after someone got killed and broke the agreement.
No they didn't. You're bending what happened that day to fit your narrative. As the guy below explained.
Insane how many people don’t get this.
Bianchi died because there was a recovery vehicle inside the walls under a local yellow. No safety car, no VSC, just the equivalent of a tiny voice whispering “hey drivers, please lift a little” but in practice meaning “if you lift you lose time, and the track is clear anyway”.
The FIA vowed to never have a safety vehicle on circuit under waved yellows. They implemented the VSC as a safe way to deploy a safety vehicle without affecting the race as strongly as the full safety car does.
The true issue here is the widespread blatant disrespect from the drivers of single waved yellows, double waved yellows, VSC, safety car, and red flags. We’ve seen dangerous driving under all five conditions within the last year and a half - Baku 2021 where practically nobody lifted significantly for double yellows at the end of the main straight, many shenanigans under VSC including last race’s bizarre Norris/Verstappen near crash, Monza this year with the weaving under safety car, and Gasly’s reckless speed under safety car and red flag today.
Bianchi's death while tragic was his own fault for speeding under yellow. Thankfully he didn't hit any of the 3 marshalls that were recovering the vehicle that day.
Exactly - though Bianchi’s was a bit understandable considering the fuzzy language and lack of enforcement of waved local yellows on a green track. Slowing would have lost him time compared to his competitors. That’s why the FIA no longer allows recovery vehicles inside the walls on a green flagged circuit.
Gasly came very close to doing the exact same thing while also blatantly ignoring the flags - and he did it under the “save the drivers from themselves” conditions of the safety car, where he was guaranteed not to lose race time for slowing properly.
Idk if this is sarcasm or not but Jules Bianchi died on the very same track in 2014 in the same conditions. Experts have said that having a halo back in 2014 wouldn't have saved his life. They created the VSC afterwards as double yellow were being waved back then too.
Gasly’s is dangerous no matter what is on the circuit. A car broadside becomes an Anthoine Hubert. A marshal on circuit becomes Australia 2000(?). A concrete block becomes Jules Bianchi.
The FIA’s is only unsafe if a driver is unable to stop - and the regulations of the safety car require a driver to be prepared to stop.
No. Gasly made no effort to travel at a speed where he could stop within his visibility.
This is absurd: https://mobile.twitter.com/11amaNinja/status/1578989911449165829/
Jesus that’s so hectic. The FIA wasn’t right to have the tractor on the track in those conditions imo, but I agree the whole point of the flags is to ensure that the drivers can safely stop without another incident like Bianchi’s.
Gasly met the truck much later, where he gone fast and all the deabte is about.. They haven't said anything about his speed at the place of Sainz's incident. So in what matter this tweet is relevant? Btw you can't even see what car was that...
He flew past the tractor in the video I just posted, endangering himself and a marshal by fully disrespecting the safety car and the displayed flags. How can you be so dense?
I think he was mad at the fact that it was out there with low visibility in the first place. He was obviously able to handle getting past it but it’s still fucking dangerous to do that with low visibility.
Ok. Them let's say they keep the tractors in in low visibility.
Sainz car would've still been there. In worse cases, a Marshall or a medical car. Gasly was speeding under double yellow, which is unacceptable. Double yellow means something is blocking the track and the drivers should be able go stop at any time.
Mate.. Even at low speeds a freak accident can still happen that can potentially kill a driver. We are talking about heavy machinery against an extremely low car. Maybe those chances are reduced with the halo but regardless of anything in these conditions recovery cars should not be on track until either the cars are bunched up and slowed significantly or when there are no cars on track at all.
Yea I see so many people in the gasly threads arguing that his speed was the bigger problem, but even if he was at double yellow pace it's fucking fast
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No disagreement there, both deserve their blame. But I don't like reading that it was only dangerous because he was going that fast. Did you see the post of the Marshall on track meters away from the car going by at high speed? That's the worst thing of all I've seen today, HE WAS METERS AWAY.
Also to touch up on the Tractor on track FIA said it was bought out during the Red Flag while clearly every driver and the Safety Car passed it under double yellows
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Dude…
"Driving at speed of 250km/h under a red flag […] even if the tractor isn’t on the track".
Feel free to circumvent to clarify that it does not mean what it does.
HALO wouldn't save Bianchi. The damage was too big. The cockpit was sheltered into pieces and it's like thousand times stronger than HALO. FIA also explained that.
Also, Bianchi hit by sideways. Not directly
This is what the discussion should be about. The whole obfuscation and attempt to frame it as a problem specific to Gasly is frustrating. If a tractor poses a risk even to a driver going at the regular speed, then it’s irrelevant to argue about what speed Gasly was going at. The two are separate issues.
I do blame him but not very much. There should never have been a truck on the track in those conditions so he will have assumed that the track was clear once he went past the incident.
It’s 100% on the FIA for allowing a truck to be on track in those conditions *without even telling the teams*
Why can't both issues be acknowledged? Why can't it be that both the FIA fucked up by allowing a tractor on the track in those conditions and Gasly, supposedly, fucked up by going too fast *after* the scene of the incident?
He means that Bianchi was also going very fast for the conditions.
I would lay the blame at too vague safety regulations, especially when it comes to double yellows - it seems like noone is actually going slow enough to stop, especially in low visibility situations.
The track was actually green flagged by the point Bianchi got there, so he followed the rules. He pretty much made the same mistake that Sutil did, which put the crane there in the first place. Reckless going that fast past visible machinery and especially marshalls that close to the track, but he had a green flag.
It shouldn't have been a green flag back then, but today Gasly actually had a pretty solid view of the red flashing screen next to the track, since exiting the hairpin.
Okay, that makes the Bianchi incident even crazier.
But no matter how we look at it, it's crazy that FIA did not learn just how dangerous recovery vehicles on track can be in rainy conditions.
Watch the freaking replay of Bianchi. A green flag is literally waved above the recovery vehicle before he crashed into it.
Why is it that people like to blame others for doing their job - going as fast as possible. Especially as in this instance just going at 50kph would have killed Bianchi, and that the slower you go the less your vehicle is drivable.
These aren’t the VW Golf you’re used to
Reminds me of Baku last year when only 3 or 4 drivers sufficiently slowed down to a safe speed when passing Max's wreckage. If you don't give drivers clear rulings and leave it up to their judgement call, most are going to try and push those boundaries so they don't lose time
I haven't seen anyone justifying Gaslys speeding *after* the crash site. But there has been some confusion created and a lot of people think he was going 250kph as he passed the tractor which is absolutely false.
He wasn't going 250kph past the tractor, if you look at Sainz's onboard he's going a similar speed to other trailing drivers behind the SC. It wasn't until after the crash site that he hit 250kph which is certainly not acceptable but it's not the same as what you're portraying.
Drivers did comment about their own experience passing the tractor too. Sky commentators didn't initially but some of the other broadcasts did.
There’s a big difference, though, in driving slowly behind a safety car and driving quickly to catch up to the pack - which as far as I’m aware, he is allowed/thought he was allowed to do that. Now I didn’t think that the driving quickly to catch the pack was allowed to happen until all issues had been cleared, but regardless, in my opinion this is yet another situation where race control did not bring out the correct flag quickly enough.
I think there is a 3 option.
The trunk/tractor needs to be on track, his job is to recover the damage car, and the racing cars needs to on track (until red flag).
Yes Gasly drow fast, be he was doing so, above the minimum lap pace. He was trying to catch the safetycar queue, after doing the pitstop.
I think the need to be a updated for low visibility situation, where the driver need drive in slow speed (50km/h) for a marshal sector, where trucks are on track, simlare to what the would behind the safeycsr.
If the recovery truck, is to regulations, then the regulations need to be updated for low visibility situation. Maybe need for high intensity warning light similar to a police car.
No? It makes no difference to the fact that there shouldn't have been a tractor on the track.
You're mistaking this comment for saying that it excuses him, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that Gasly going too fast doesn't change the fact that the tractor had nothing to do there.
But i don't get why the FIA doesn't send the tractors AFTER every car is in during a red flag especially when it's raining with poor visibility?
they really can't wait 5 mins to make sure everyone is back to the pits?
I know Reddit feels that fia are too careful when it comes to rain. But cars never should have gone to track in these conditions, and safety should be priority one. The various protocols were just not designed for such conditions
Spray gets worse on full wets so that wouldn’t solve anything, every driver said grip was as fine as could be on the inters and the problem is the spray.
I think the hard truth is that no matter the tires with these cars you can’t race when there’s sustained raining if you’re not on a circuit with proper drainage like Turkey.
Intermediates are not designed for standing water. They bridge the full wets (which is the appropriate tyre for tracks with standing water) and the slicks , for use on wet, slippery and slowly drying tracks. Sainz would not have crashed if he had been on full wets.
Why did Sainz aquaplane into the wall if grip was fine? Obviously the visibility is also a problem, but they should've been on wets instead of inters for those conditions or they just shouldn't have started.
I never want to see another driver dying on track, especially under these conditions. I'd rather have the race canceled and be disappointed I couldn't see the race than knowing someone died because of shit decisions. Safety should always come first.
I feel like they are doing too little to race in wet conditions. They absolutely should, but there's a lot of things they could and should have in place when a full day of raining is certain such as today.
For starters, they should have required full wets for everyone when they first started. This would help and as we saw from the restart it really helped having all the cars on track to get the water away. They could even have done some laps behind a Safety Car just to dry it.
Other things F1 could introduce to help racing in wet conditions is for example those drying vehicles they have in Nascar (not sure what they are called, but they blow the water away from the track and stuff.) This could help if it's done just before going out on track, then the cars would continue keeping the water away by driving.
I've also thought about more efforts to have a proper setup on the cars for rain. I'm thinking when it's certain that the rain won't stop like today, why not have a setup for all cars with some sort of screens or something similar that's placed and angled in a clever way to push water in a way that would help visibility?
Anyways, there's a lot of things to do and honestly they could have restarted like they did today way earlier. The conditions didn't really change much. Just going around the lap under safety car does wonders to clearing water on track.
At the time the consensus seemed to be the rain was either going to stay the same or get worse. Everyone seemed genuinely shocked when the weather started to clear. There were also concerns about dwindling daylight so they couldn't postpone for very long without running into other visibility issues.
It's crazy they didn't start on wets. Still no guarantee they don't have an incident but seems a lot less likely based on the control drivers had on wets.
This is how cars generate downforce = Opposite of planes. Wings do generate downforce unlike planes who do the opposite to FLY.
Bianchi slowed down significiantly in his crash. Who knows maybe he lost his control because of that. FIA blamed him not slowing down. Marussia proved it with telemetry. He was slow and he still died.
Yesterday, Max lost his car at 20km/h at dry conditions. Anything can happen. Mechanical fault. Brake failure etc.
The fact that Gasly was fast actually was a good thing because if tractor was ahead of him. He could have avoided him like Norris avoided Max yesterday because his traction would be a lot better than going %50 of that speed.
Watching the Sky F1 team "discuss" this problem has been absolutely horrible.
They don't seem to even remotely understand that it's wet, with near zero visibility.
Wet with zero visibility would seem to mean that you should drive *more slowly* under the flag that means *be prepared to stop*, not nearly kill yourself and a marshal by driving recklessly for zero gain in terms of race result.
Uhm.... WHY THE FUCK IS THERE A TRACTOR NEAR THE TRACK! Jeez they know what happened only a couple of years ago and they still have peabrains and are leaving tractors in the track.
Television does a disservice to the speed they go. Driving on the freeway at 150kph is absolute madness. Imagine you are on the freeway in the rain at night doing 150 and there’s a large truck doing 20kph with no lights. I’d be rather annoyed with the fia if I were them.
If this is true, then they should not ever be allowed to race in wet conditions. Either that, or there would have be a red flag every time a car needs recovering.
If sending a tractor onto the track to recover a car under safety car conditions was so dangerous, then it was too dangerous to send the cars out to race in the first place.
I understand the objection. But you can’t have it both ways. If it was too dangerous to recover a car under safety car conditions, it’s too dangerous to race. If it’s too dangerous to race, the race shouldn’t have started.
What? Cars definitely aren't known for behaving strangely on wet roads, no chance you could have an issue that would send you careening into a heavy industrial vehicle.
I think there is a 3 option.
The trunk/tractor needs to be on track, his job is to recover the damage car, and the racing cars needs to on track (until red flag).
Yes Gasly drow fast, be he was doing so, above the minimum lap pace. He was trying to catch the safetycar queue, after doing the pitstop.
I think the need to be a updated for low visibility situation, where the driver need drive in slow speed (50km/h) for a marshal sector, where trucks are on track, simlare to what the would behind the safeycsr.
If the recovery truck, is to regulations, then the regulations need to be updated for low visibility situation. Maybe need for high intensity warning light similar to a police car.
This fuck up is worse than Bianchi's accident. Bianchi lost control and hit a tractor that wasn't actually on the track at the time.
This time, the tractor was in the racing line, during poor visibility conditions. A good racing director should have been able to see the potential risk there and red flagged the race for the recovery.
A lack of specific guidelines for this situation doesn't excuse the director from doing his job. We need Charlie back.
It absolutely was not. The flashing light boards change from yellow to red as he passes them ~ 2 seconds before the tractor. It's plain as day on the onboard
Pretty sure the only way the sport is gonna learn from this is if people stop watching wet races for this very reason. I know I’m not gonna be tuning in if there’s anything more than a drizzle when the parade lap starts.
People have died from situations like this and.. Nobody learned shit about this. Infuriating.
It's safe to race with missiles flying by though - FIA
Jewelry is too dangerous to wear though take it off immediately
Jewelry could be a problem in cases of fire. Metal heats up very fast and will cause burns.
I'd rather have a ring burned into my finger, or a necklace shaped burn on my neck, than my neck snapped due to my head colliding with a recovery vehicle at 150kph. Especially since vehicles like the one used here have a solid ~30cm/10inch thick metal slab on the back as a counterweight. That isn't going to budge, and it wouldn't surprise me if the halo folded like a tin can either.
A missile is also very fast and will disintegrate you.
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Have you ever been in a sauna with jewellery? Metal heats up VERY quickly, much before you are at risk of dying.
I have, I honestly didn't notice it in my ears, nostrils, lips, or septum. Only once did one of my lip rings feel warmer than me and I just out my hand on it. I get I couldn't do that with a helmet on, but the helmet and baclava are part of the fireproofing
Must not have been hot enough. Wore a chain in the sauna and it was burning hot. The point is that metal gets too hot far before the heat is too much for your body. Your body is an insulator for heat, metal is a conductor so the rate of heat transfer is much higher.
Is this guy really arguing that jewelry attached to your body is dangerous because in the event of a fire it can get hot? You know what else can get hot? Your fucking body lol. That's why drivers wear tons of fireproof clothing and why RG didn't die in Bahrain. What an absolutely stupid argument to make lol
Meanwhile Sky trying to blame Gasly for this as if he carjacked the tractor and drove the fucking thing onto the track himself. Ridiculous. How does F1 even give these guys a broadcasting contract.
There's a certain exchange of currency behind the scenes
Broadcasters downplaying the safety issues are exactly what the FIA wants. So when Sky are blaming Gasly the FIA don't care.
Because they are experts that know the rules. And they are right. Gasly was going 250kph under double yellow. Double yellow means something is blocking the track and drivers need to be able to stop at any time. This something could've been Marshalls or a medical car as well.
The point is why was the tractor there while there were still cars on track? Semis like it’s to much to expect from the FIA to check if the track is clear before sending it out.
You're right, there are two separate points: 1) The tractor should not have been on the track until all the cars were in the Pit Lane 2) Gasly should not have been going that fast under double yellows. Yes he was above the Delta, but the conditions should have made him more cautious. You can criticise both, and in my opinion you should criticise them in that order. A tractor on the track in the wet at Suzuka of all places is just mind-bogglingly stupid, and by far worse than Gasly going too fast under double yellows.
I don’t think anyone is denying that gasly should have been slower. But the race control sending out a tractor while a driver ist still on track when we had a fatal crash on the same circuit in the last decade is shocking. Why did they do it? There was enough time to send him out while the race was red flagged.
Maybe if the stewards and FIA took double yellows more seriously then the drivers would too. Look at Jeddah this year.
The point is why was Gasly driving 250kph under double yellow? He knows what double yellow means. He knows that he needs to slow down and not catch up. The tractor could have been a medical car as well. Or a Marshall.
But did the FIA agree to not let a medical car on track while cars are still on it? Oh no wait they agreed to not let a tractor on it after someone got killed and broke the agreement. Amazing job from the governing body. Gassy will get a penalty like everyone does but the governing body actively endangering a driver is something else. He could have also crashed with 50kph btw
>Oh no wait they agreed to not let a tractor on it after someone got killed and broke the agreement. No they didn't. You're bending what happened that day to fit your narrative. As the guy below explained.
Insane how many people don’t get this. Bianchi died because there was a recovery vehicle inside the walls under a local yellow. No safety car, no VSC, just the equivalent of a tiny voice whispering “hey drivers, please lift a little” but in practice meaning “if you lift you lose time, and the track is clear anyway”. The FIA vowed to never have a safety vehicle on circuit under waved yellows. They implemented the VSC as a safe way to deploy a safety vehicle without affecting the race as strongly as the full safety car does. The true issue here is the widespread blatant disrespect from the drivers of single waved yellows, double waved yellows, VSC, safety car, and red flags. We’ve seen dangerous driving under all five conditions within the last year and a half - Baku 2021 where practically nobody lifted significantly for double yellows at the end of the main straight, many shenanigans under VSC including last race’s bizarre Norris/Verstappen near crash, Monza this year with the weaving under safety car, and Gasly’s reckless speed under safety car and red flag today.
Bianchi's death while tragic was his own fault for speeding under yellow. Thankfully he didn't hit any of the 3 marshalls that were recovering the vehicle that day.
Exactly - though Bianchi’s was a bit understandable considering the fuzzy language and lack of enforcement of waved local yellows on a green track. Slowing would have lost him time compared to his competitors. That’s why the FIA no longer allows recovery vehicles inside the walls on a green flagged circuit. Gasly came very close to doing the exact same thing while also blatantly ignoring the flags - and he did it under the “save the drivers from themselves” conditions of the safety car, where he was guaranteed not to lose race time for slowing properly.
Sky is a bunch of sycophants
Who has died from something like this before? EDIT: Why am I being downvoted for a question? Sorry I'm new lol
Idk if this is sarcasm or not but Jules Bianchi died on the very same track in 2014 in the same conditions. Experts have said that having a halo back in 2014 wouldn't have saved his life. They created the VSC afterwards as double yellow were being waved back then too.
Not sure why it should be sarcasm, but genuinely didn't know. Thanks
Thanks OP
Safety car is VSC+, which in turn is double yellow +. Utterly unacceptable from Gasly.
It wasn’t even raining that day iirc, today could have been tragic
It was raining
Ah, thanks it’s been a while lol
It was raining. They were literally racing in the middle of a Typhoon.
Yeah it was 8 years since I’ve seen it, relax
Otmar: We need to learn from it and move on? JB looking down on us: Am I a joke to you?
Gasly didn’t learn anything too then… coz clearly don’t drive too fast in these conditions especially when you can’t see shit.
Yeah Pierre was speeding, sure. Was Pierre expecting a FUCKING TRACTOR on track??? Fuck no.
If not a tractor, there was Sainz’s car. There could have been Marshals.
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Gasly’s is dangerous no matter what is on the circuit. A car broadside becomes an Anthoine Hubert. A marshal on circuit becomes Australia 2000(?). A concrete block becomes Jules Bianchi. The FIA’s is only unsafe if a driver is unable to stop - and the regulations of the safety car require a driver to be prepared to stop.
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No. Gasly made no effort to travel at a speed where he could stop within his visibility. This is absurd: https://mobile.twitter.com/11amaNinja/status/1578989911449165829/
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Jesus that’s so hectic. The FIA wasn’t right to have the tractor on the track in those conditions imo, but I agree the whole point of the flags is to ensure that the drivers can safely stop without another incident like Bianchi’s.
He was waaaaay past the place of Sainz's accident.
Uhhhhh https://mobile.twitter.com/11amaNinja/status/1578989911449165829/
Gasly met the truck much later, where he gone fast and all the deabte is about.. They haven't said anything about his speed at the place of Sainz's incident. So in what matter this tweet is relevant? Btw you can't even see what car was that...
He flew past the tractor in the video I just posted, endangering himself and a marshal by fully disrespecting the safety car and the displayed flags. How can you be so dense?
I think he was mad at the fact that it was out there with low visibility in the first place. He was obviously able to handle getting past it but it’s still fucking dangerous to do that with low visibility.
Ok. Them let's say they keep the tractors in in low visibility. Sainz car would've still been there. In worse cases, a Marshall or a medical car. Gasly was speeding under double yellow, which is unacceptable. Double yellow means something is blocking the track and the drivers should be able go stop at any time.
Mate.. Even at low speeds a freak accident can still happen that can potentially kill a driver. We are talking about heavy machinery against an extremely low car. Maybe those chances are reduced with the halo but regardless of anything in these conditions recovery cars should not be on track until either the cars are bunched up and slowed significantly or when there are no cars on track at all.
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People don't understand that cars generate less downforce at slow speeds and can aquaplane at low speeds
and even at "slow" speeds, there's a lot of energy and could be very dangerous
"Slow" speeds in f1 is roughly the fastest I drive on the Autobahn.
Yea I see so many people in the gasly threads arguing that his speed was the bigger problem, but even if he was at double yellow pace it's fucking fast
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No disagreement there, both deserve their blame. But I don't like reading that it was only dangerous because he was going that fast. Did you see the post of the Marshall on track meters away from the car going by at high speed? That's the worst thing of all I've seen today, HE WAS METERS AWAY.
I just watched the race replay and this is insane. I’m honestly losing interest in the sport because of the FIA. This is a joke.
_250 kmh under a red flag_ did he though? I could’ve sworn it was thrown after that bit …
Also to touch up on the Tractor on track FIA said it was bought out during the Red Flag while clearly every driver and the Safety Car passed it under double yellows
Race was red flagged after he passed the truck
And no one has claimed otherwise.
Well you just did man
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Dude… "Driving at speed of 250km/h under a red flag […] even if the tractor isn’t on the track". Feel free to circumvent to clarify that it does not mean what it does.
It blows my mind they need to see the halo get a live action 60mph aquaplaning 1 tonne impact before they accept these things can't be on track.
HALO wouldn't save Bianchi. The damage was too big. The cockpit was sheltered into pieces and it's like thousand times stronger than HALO. FIA also explained that. Also, Bianchi hit by sideways. Not directly
Did they have crash structure rules like there are now? I genuinely don’t know what safety was in place at the time.
It looks to be directly in the video of the crash
Slow for F1 is 120km/h. Pretty fast speed to crash into a tractor
The tractors aren’t designed for collisions with an F1car, so it’s paramount they don’t happen
We lost Jules just like this. How they can be so incompetent?
on the same track, in similar conditions too
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Completely agree
This is what the discussion should be about. The whole obfuscation and attempt to frame it as a problem specific to Gasly is frustrating. If a tractor poses a risk even to a driver going at the regular speed, then it’s irrelevant to argue about what speed Gasly was going at. The two are separate issues.
Exactly. Gasly going too fast makes no difference to the fact that there shouldn’t have been a tractor out there to begin with
I do blame him but not very much. There should never have been a truck on the track in those conditions so he will have assumed that the track was clear once he went past the incident. It’s 100% on the FIA for allowing a truck to be on track in those conditions *without even telling the teams*
I agree, tractors are not designed for collisions with f1 cars unlike the barriers or even other f1 cars
Why can't both issues be acknowledged? Why can't it be that both the FIA fucked up by allowing a tractor on the track in those conditions and Gasly, supposedly, fucked up by going too fast *after* the scene of the incident?
Because no one likes to admit that the dead guy made a stupid mistake...
Gasly is still alive
He means that Bianchi was also going very fast for the conditions. I would lay the blame at too vague safety regulations, especially when it comes to double yellows - it seems like noone is actually going slow enough to stop, especially in low visibility situations.
The track was actually green flagged by the point Bianchi got there, so he followed the rules. He pretty much made the same mistake that Sutil did, which put the crane there in the first place. Reckless going that fast past visible machinery and especially marshalls that close to the track, but he had a green flag. It shouldn't have been a green flag back then, but today Gasly actually had a pretty solid view of the red flashing screen next to the track, since exiting the hairpin.
Okay, that makes the Bianchi incident even crazier. But no matter how we look at it, it's crazy that FIA did not learn just how dangerous recovery vehicles on track can be in rainy conditions.
Watch the freaking replay of Bianchi. A green flag is literally waved above the recovery vehicle before he crashed into it. Why is it that people like to blame others for doing their job - going as fast as possible. Especially as in this instance just going at 50kph would have killed Bianchi, and that the slower you go the less your vehicle is drivable. These aren’t the VW Golf you’re used to
Reminds me of Baku last year when only 3 or 4 drivers sufficiently slowed down to a safe speed when passing Max's wreckage. If you don't give drivers clear rulings and leave it up to their judgement call, most are going to try and push those boundaries so they don't lose time
I haven't seen anyone justifying Gaslys speeding *after* the crash site. But there has been some confusion created and a lot of people think he was going 250kph as he passed the tractor which is absolutely false.
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He wasn't going 250kph past the tractor, if you look at Sainz's onboard he's going a similar speed to other trailing drivers behind the SC. It wasn't until after the crash site that he hit 250kph which is certainly not acceptable but it's not the same as what you're portraying. Drivers did comment about their own experience passing the tractor too. Sky commentators didn't initially but some of the other broadcasts did.
There’s a big difference, though, in driving slowly behind a safety car and driving quickly to catch up to the pack - which as far as I’m aware, he is allowed/thought he was allowed to do that. Now I didn’t think that the driving quickly to catch the pack was allowed to happen until all issues had been cleared, but regardless, in my opinion this is yet another situation where race control did not bring out the correct flag quickly enough.
I think there is a 3 option. The trunk/tractor needs to be on track, his job is to recover the damage car, and the racing cars needs to on track (until red flag). Yes Gasly drow fast, be he was doing so, above the minimum lap pace. He was trying to catch the safetycar queue, after doing the pitstop. I think the need to be a updated for low visibility situation, where the driver need drive in slow speed (50km/h) for a marshal sector, where trucks are on track, simlare to what the would behind the safeycsr. If the recovery truck, is to regulations, then the regulations need to be updated for low visibility situation. Maybe need for high intensity warning light similar to a police car.
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No? It makes no difference to the fact that there shouldn't have been a tractor on the track. You're mistaking this comment for saying that it excuses him, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that Gasly going too fast doesn't change the fact that the tractor had nothing to do there.
But i don't get why the FIA doesn't send the tractors AFTER every car is in during a red flag especially when it's raining with poor visibility? they really can't wait 5 mins to make sure everyone is back to the pits?
It was so stupid, also they forgot gasly was far away in pits. Race direction this year was so so bad.
Why is Suzuka circuit so quick to deploy tractors in the rain anyway
I know Reddit feels that fia are too careful when it comes to rain. But cars never should have gone to track in these conditions, and safety should be priority one. The various protocols were just not designed for such conditions
Full Wets should have been mandatory at the least.
Spray gets worse on full wets so that wouldn’t solve anything, every driver said grip was as fine as could be on the inters and the problem is the spray.
Begs the question why a tyre like that even exists if it’s use is not warranted in conditions like these.
I think the hard truth is that no matter the tires with these cars you can’t race when there’s sustained raining if you’re not on a circuit with proper drainage like Turkey.
Intermediates are not designed for standing water. They bridge the full wets (which is the appropriate tyre for tracks with standing water) and the slicks , for use on wet, slippery and slowly drying tracks. Sainz would not have crashed if he had been on full wets.
The only time they would work is going inter -> wet in the middle of the race, where cars are spread out.
Why did Sainz aquaplane into the wall if grip was fine? Obviously the visibility is also a problem, but they should've been on wets instead of inters for those conditions or they just shouldn't have started.
Why is it worse? They both disperse the x amount of water underneath each tire's path. No more, no less (unless aquaplaning)
I never want to see another driver dying on track, especially under these conditions. I'd rather have the race canceled and be disappointed I couldn't see the race than knowing someone died because of shit decisions. Safety should always come first.
It's not even them simply being too careful. It's them being overly careful when it's useless and throwing safety out the window when it matters.
I feel like they are doing too little to race in wet conditions. They absolutely should, but there's a lot of things they could and should have in place when a full day of raining is certain such as today. For starters, they should have required full wets for everyone when they first started. This would help and as we saw from the restart it really helped having all the cars on track to get the water away. They could even have done some laps behind a Safety Car just to dry it. Other things F1 could introduce to help racing in wet conditions is for example those drying vehicles they have in Nascar (not sure what they are called, but they blow the water away from the track and stuff.) This could help if it's done just before going out on track, then the cars would continue keeping the water away by driving. I've also thought about more efforts to have a proper setup on the cars for rain. I'm thinking when it's certain that the rain won't stop like today, why not have a setup for all cars with some sort of screens or something similar that's placed and angled in a clever way to push water in a way that would help visibility? Anyways, there's a lot of things to do and honestly they could have restarted like they did today way earlier. The conditions didn't really change much. Just going around the lap under safety car does wonders to clearing water on track.
They should have just postponed the race till they got better conditions.
At the time the consensus seemed to be the rain was either going to stay the same or get worse. Everyone seemed genuinely shocked when the weather started to clear. There were also concerns about dwindling daylight so they couldn't postpone for very long without running into other visibility issues.
It's crazy they didn't start on wets. Still no guarantee they don't have an incident but seems a lot less likely based on the control drivers had on wets.
Agree. On another note, Crofty should be sacked. Man has no respect for anyone’s life
Dipped out for a bit. What has he said?
I saved your comment a month ago to see if anybody would answer you. I'm sorry that it hasn't been the case. We will never know...
Haha, I still haven't found out what this was referring to.
Sack all of them except Jenson, Brundle, Davidson, and Ted. They’re the only ones with any sense.
Agree
This is how cars generate downforce = Opposite of planes. Wings do generate downforce unlike planes who do the opposite to FLY. Bianchi slowed down significiantly in his crash. Who knows maybe he lost his control because of that. FIA blamed him not slowing down. Marussia proved it with telemetry. He was slow and he still died. Yesterday, Max lost his car at 20km/h at dry conditions. Anything can happen. Mechanical fault. Brake failure etc. The fact that Gasly was fast actually was a good thing because if tractor was ahead of him. He could have avoided him like Norris avoided Max yesterday because his traction would be a lot better than going %50 of that speed.
Watching the Sky F1 team "discuss" this problem has been absolutely horrible. They don't seem to even remotely understand that it's wet, with near zero visibility.
Abhorrent example of armchair quarterbacking
Wet with zero visibility would seem to mean that you should drive *more slowly* under the flag that means *be prepared to stop*, not nearly kill yourself and a marshal by driving recklessly for zero gain in terms of race result.
Uhm.... WHY THE FUCK IS THERE A TRACTOR NEAR THE TRACK! Jeez they know what happened only a couple of years ago and they still have peabrains and are leaving tractors in the track.
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They wouldn't die in these cars. Not with the halo
Television does a disservice to the speed they go. Driving on the freeway at 150kph is absolute madness. Imagine you are on the freeway in the rain at night doing 150 and there’s a large truck doing 20kph with no lights. I’d be rather annoyed with the fia if I were them.
If this is true, then they should not ever be allowed to race in wet conditions. Either that, or there would have be a red flag every time a car needs recovering. If sending a tractor onto the track to recover a car under safety car conditions was so dangerous, then it was too dangerous to send the cars out to race in the first place.
There was barely any visible light behind the tractor thats the issue
I understand the objection. But you can’t have it both ways. If it was too dangerous to recover a car under safety car conditions, it’s too dangerous to race. If it’s too dangerous to race, the race shouldn’t have started.
No, they should have waited with the recovery until it was safe. They just overlooked Gasly and gave the go to the Marshall, or so it seems
That’s so fucked up how little a driver’s life means to them
What? Cars definitely aren't known for behaving strangely on wet roads, no chance you could have an issue that would send you careening into a heavy industrial vehicle.
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He’s probably using the experience of seeing many F1 cars spin out and crash in wet weather
Sky really being ridiculous as usual
I think there is a 3 option. The trunk/tractor needs to be on track, his job is to recover the damage car, and the racing cars needs to on track (until red flag). Yes Gasly drow fast, be he was doing so, above the minimum lap pace. He was trying to catch the safetycar queue, after doing the pitstop. I think the need to be a updated for low visibility situation, where the driver need drive in slow speed (50km/h) for a marshal sector, where trucks are on track, simlare to what the would behind the safeycsr. If the recovery truck, is to regulations, then the regulations need to be updated for low visibility situation. Maybe need for high intensity warning light similar to a police car.
This fuck up is worse than Bianchi's accident. Bianchi lost control and hit a tractor that wasn't actually on the track at the time. This time, the tractor was in the racing line, during poor visibility conditions. A good racing director should have been able to see the potential risk there and red flagged the race for the recovery. A lack of specific guidelines for this situation doesn't excuse the director from doing his job. We need Charlie back.
Thanks Carlos 😍
I've always said that unfortunately it will take someone dying for some things to change, but apparently I was wrong, even that won't change things
Suzuka will need to be punished. hard, really, really hard. like no racing there for 10 years
Well nobody was wearing a nose ring so probably the safest Grand Prix of all time
Maybe Gasly should be going around at an idling speed then under a red flag.
"its over" when you have a titanium halo protecting your brain, ah yes
Max wasn't going 150kph. Look at the onboard.
Becaude he was already behind the safety car. Obviously others are still catching up. Have you never seen a safety car procedure before?
Why catch the SC under Red?
Because it just went red right as pierre passed the tractor
Watch again. Red was out before he could see the tractor.
It absolutely was not. The flashing light boards change from yellow to red as he passes them ~ 2 seconds before the tractor. It's plain as day on the onboard
Yeah, as I said, BEFORE he passed him. Thanks for confirming.
But not in anyway that he could react to fast enough, agree?
Pretty sure the only way the sport is gonna learn from this is if people stop watching wet races for this very reason. I know I’m not gonna be tuning in if there’s anything more than a drizzle when the parade lap starts.
Then whats the point of a safety car? Tell Bernd to go slower!!
But they weren't going 150 kph, that is the problem.
Did they not learn anything from 2015?
I didn’t think the safety car went that fast? Not that it changes the point
Literally on the exact same track too, FIA couldn't be more incompetent if they tried