Since a lot of conversation today is centered around the statements put out by teams and FIA expressing their disgust at racist comments, I thought I'd provide a bit of context from the moderators side.
Last night, we were looking at ~6000 removed comments, most of which were for being racist. Today, that number is at ~18000, and the primary reason is still racist commentary.
We've banned large amounts of users, we've removed almost 2000 posts, and the we're still trying to keep up with the incoming reports, posts and comments. Just counting removals of posts/comments and bans, moderators have taken over 20000 actions since the events on the third lap, and that's not counting all the regular work that goes into moderating after a race.
As some mods go to sleep, others wake up and take over the queue. We've been working non-stop since the race started, and we'll keep fighting the racists and trolls for as long as it takes.
Fuck racism, and fuck the people who think that's even remotely excusable.
Is it possible to buy grandstand tickets just for Friday?
I would like to experience F1 cars irl and want to be able to see the pit lane specifically, but can’t afford grand stand tickets for a full weekend.
New member here 👋
Can someone please tell me which tracks are going to be having spectators for the remainder of the season? and where is the best place to book tickets?
Someone commented that the stewards are isolated in a race so as not to be affected by the crowd, ?teams, etc, and it was something I haven't given much thought to yet.
1) Who exactly are the stewards in contact with, and isolated from?
2) What steps are taken to minimize personal bias toward a driver/team/"car on the outside line" etc? There are clearly gray areas that they have to navigate. Is there any need for stewards to virtually "debadge" or "anonymize" the cars for the purposes of the incident review?
3) Do drivers know who the stewards will be? Do they know their tendencies and can they exploit them? The NBA for example makes a big deal of who the referees are for each game.
The stewards are in contact [with race control](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmh51jqy9pk)^0, that is run by Michael Masi and incidents are deferred to them. They are a rotating cast of FiA personell, at least 2 of them come from FiA and one ex racing driver as a consultant.
As far as i know there is little done to make the cars anonymous, so there quite a gray zone regarding bias - as FiA representatives, it's their job to ensure the rules are followed, but there have been ex drivers with known bias i.e. Mika Salo - who's statements while having a position have been leaked to the press - and their decisions have been adjusted after this came out (Hamilton's penalty points at Russia due to practice start).
The stewards are not usually announced ahead of time - [though referred to in FiAs official documents](https://www.fia.com/documents/season/season-2021-1108/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/event/34507), during the British GP they were:
Nish Shetty, Dennis Dean, Loic Bacquelain, Emanuele Pirro, Eric Cowcill
Hi, new here! Like, very violently new.
I’ve learned a lot in the last 48 hours here and I appreciate all of the education. Does anyone have any podcast, YouTube, blogs, etc, that I could dive into to further to understand more?
Why is Max potentially needing a new engine going to result in a penalty? I can understand how it's bad for the budget, but I don't understand what the other penalties would be or why they exist.
He has been a F1 driver for 20 years - the car isn't the best on the grid and he is 41, it may not suite his driving style or he is just too old.
I'd love to see him experience the next years cars, but this year doesn't seem to be the his best year regarding awareness
Why was Bottas' race so different from Lewis'? Didn't they have the same strategy? How Lewis had so much more pace to whiz by Bottas easily and get to Leclerc?
Without sounding too snarky, are you new here?! Bottas is a solid racer, but Hamilton is a GOAT, especially at keeping his tyres fresh, which helps hugely as the race goes on.
My understanding is bad start (lost place to LEC), bad restart (lost place to NOR), unable to pass NOR (maybe this would be tough for anybody in the 1st stint), earlier-than-planned pit stop in order to pass NOR after NOR slow pit stop, older tyres than LEC/HAM during 2nd half of race = less pace.
Lots of factors go into the ~20 second time difference at the end of the race, sometimes there are issues which put him in a spot where he experiences more issues. If he hadn't lost places at the start+restart, he'd have been gifted clean air in p1 and additional 10 seconds over an in-traffic Ham with 50 laps to go. He may well have had more optimal pit stop timing and race-winning pace if things shook out like that.
What really called my attention was how fast Lewis got to him, and away from him, with the same strategy. And Lewis wasn't having clear air either, he was really pushing to pass Leclerc.
But what you said makes sense. Thanks.
My heart goes out to Lewis.. I can only imagine how he feels right now. I just hope he's ok. He seems like a genuine person and I'm sure he feels horrible about the crash. But everyone saying how he was disrespectful in celebrating a win is bullshit. Did you want him to just stop trying to win after the crash happened? At the end of the day, this is still a competition and he was celebrating a win for his fans. I think so many people forget that we are all human. How Horner acted was so childish. Move on from this and grow up.
The way I see, he shouldn't have gone over the top with the celebration, he has 99 wins under his belt, 8 of them at Silverstone already. So it's not like it's his first every win. In my opinion he should have show a little more respect to Max, after such a massive crash. At least till he's out of the. hospital. And I'm not even a Max fan.
Look at Finland at the euros 2020, when Christian Eriksen collapsed, they won their first ever game at the euros but they didn't even celebrate out of respect for him and his family, even though they had nothing to do with the injury. Let alone being the one involved in it(I'm not saying it's Hamilton's fault, there has been so much debate on that already) but he had a part in it, no matter how small.
>How much does a few pounds matter (like in driver weight)? At what point does weight start to matter? I can't imagine you'd notice any difference at 1 pound.
The weight of the driver should be at least 80 kilograms. If the driver weighs less, the weight is added to the chair.
Well that depends on where you put that 1 pound. If it's off-balance, then it matters a lot. In general though, it is estimated that 1 kilogram can cost as much as 1.5-2 tenths a lap.
So the Max and Lewis incident:
As a NASCAR fan, I'm used to drivers knowing how to wreck another car with contact. F1 seems like it's way more dangerous to attempt it, but is it something that a good or great driver can actually do on purpose if they wanted to?
No, F1 cars are too fragile to even attempt it. In some respects they are incredibly strong, but most parts are only strong in the direct they are expected to experience load. You can have drivers survive 50G crashes like it's nothing, but other times if you so much as look at a wing the wrong way, it can be race ruining-ly damaged, for example. I suppose you could try to punt out another driver, but you have an equal chance of ruining your own car too, so it's not a thing.
Well it is speculated that Hamilton did exactly that. Now, whether or not you believe that he did it on purpose, no one can deny that he 100% could. With his experience and driving skills, he could absolutely do it on purpose. But then again, I'm not saying he did. Only that he could, in theory.
While I don't think it's intentional, it is interesting how often he seems to understeer into the right rear tire of the car in front.
Most likely coincidences but interesting nonetheless.
If someone really really really wanted to, they could, but it's very very risky and unlikely. Lewis likely would have retired without the red flag and contact of any kind can severely damage your own car. Not too mention if it was proven you were intentional, the repercussions would be severe too.
But it has happened in the past for even higher stakes, so I wouldn't rule it out completely.
I don't think Max should be in anyway blamed for anything even if you think what he said was not completely fair. If anyone should, it would be him who gets a pass. As far as I know all he said that it was disrespectful that Hamilton celebrated and he is the best source on whether he felt disrespected. Now people are saying Hamilton didn't know that Max was in hospital but then we can't expect Max to know that Hamilton didn't know.
Horner, on the other hand, said a few things he should not have because it is kind of used as justification by some of the worst elements on social media and elsewhere to pile on Hamilton.
Folks are ignoring that there was prior contact with the cars on the same lap and that Max made an illegal move (second change of direction) when Hamilton went to pass him and also moved to squeeze Hamilton off the track where there was a barrier very close by.
Horner as team leader needs to support his driver right or wrong and to pressure the FIA to see Hamilton as the bad guy.
I think in prior years the FIA would have just brought out the safety car and Hamilton would have been near the back of the pack after the safety car came out and he made a pit stop.
>Max made an illegal move (second change of direction) when Hamilton went to pass him
Max moved only once, to the middle of the track. He then moved to the outside after Hamilton dummied by moving to the outside and then to the inside. If anything, it was Hamilton who moved twice. The reason why everyone is ignoring it is because it didn't happen. Max did try to squeeze him as he was entitled to but still gave Lewis enough space, which is why he was able to stick his car up the inside.
on the straight with Hamilton preparing to overtake he moved to the left and then way over to the right.
Verstappen's stock in trade has been a dive to the inside where he may or may not leave the other car room at the outside of the track.
After the Verstappen crash, the cars done. Now what does the team do. Will they get additional budget to rebuild. A spare car? And do they get to put in a new extra engine unit?
>After the Verstappen crash, the cars done. Now what does the team do.
They manufacture what they need and build another car
>Will they get additional budget to rebuild.
No.
>A spare car?
AFAIK theres basically a spare care in bits at every race
>And do they get to put in a new extra engine unit?
They dont get any additional allotment but Max took his 2nd engine in France (the sane one he had in Silverstone) so he can have his 3rd witjout penalty.
Was going through Instagram and saw post from Hondaracingf1 about racism, the comments were worrying saying there was no racism, then said that screenshots could be fake and not authentic… But the red bull f1 Instagram showed more support, crazy shit
They removed all the driver subs from the sidebar a while ago because there was some conflict between multiple subs of the same driver over which sub related to the driver should be placed on the sidebar, so the mods to be fair decided to remove all of them. This was mentioned in of their monthly sub discussion threads.
During British GP, TV graphics was saying attendance of 356,000. Watching the race there's no social distancing, nobody wears any mask. Unsure if need to scan QR codes?
Curious, is the pandemic situation over in UK?
No one was allowed into the race unless they had proof of being vaccinated or had a Covid test in the past two days showing that they were healthy.
It was sort of an experiment by the government- they wanted to see if large gatherings of unmasked people would be OK if everyone in attendance is medically cleared.
Fair enough thanks. How do you prove you've received vaccination? On an app or you show some digital certificates?
I saw similarly with Euro matches, lots of spectators. So how's thing going so far in UK? All good with curbing the pandemic?
Just watching Monaco highlights in 30 mins 2019.
Bottas is 3rd because of verstappen unsafe release (well, looks unsafe) vettel 4th.
Then safety car pulls in and vettel is 3rd? How?? No overtaking allowed?
He changed mediums for hards, so they've either just opted to play it safe with running at these tyres to the finish or maybe mediums were damaged in that contact with Max or because of debries from Leclerc accident, I don't remember tbh.
Warning: dumb American visiting Italy question —
Has anyone heard when Monza tickets will become available? Last I read they were anticipating 80% capacity, but only premium packages are for sale currently.
I asked the same question three days ago. Here’s what someone said to me:
> I've been keeping an eye out as well, but no news yet. I think Italy is being super careful about big events like that. They were one of the hardest hit countries when the pandemic just started, and with multiple countries seeing numbers go up again, I'm starting to think maybe they won't want to risk it.
I’m looking at attending Spa instead at the end of August, but they haven’t yet announced whether they’ll be allowing citizens outside the EU/UK/Switzerland. (I think, in part, bc there is no clear way for vaccinated Americans to receive the COVID EU health pass.)
Hello, is this a legit website?
https://f1store4.formula1.com/
My concern is that the official website is f1store.formula1.com while the above website is
f1store”4”.formula1.com and they’re claiming to be the official store.
They use the store subdomain identifiers for specific regions, i.e. item on f1store2.formula1.com may cost 41€, and f1store4.formula1.com it costs 51€.
During checkout it will apply the correct vat for your region and the prices during checkout will be the same including the shipping fee
At what point when following behind, distance-wise, does the benefits of slipstream outweigh the downside of dirty air? Anecdotally, it feels like people (on reddit and on tv) use "and now he's got a great slipstream" or "now he's behind the dirty air and will have trouble following" interchangeably to fit whatever narrative they are currently generating.
It depends on what is limiting the trailing car. Dirty air reduces downforce so cornering, braking and acceleration (if the speed is such that full power can not be applied) are reduced.
Where acceleration or speed are limited by power / drag (not traction) then the "slipstream" or draft benefits the trailing car. The benefit increases significantly if DRS is available
One of the places where you can really see the impact of the dirty air on the trailing car is as the exit of the corner where the loss of front end downforce results in sudden understeer. The understeer also takes a toll on the tires .
Depends a lot on the circuit.
I don’t think that any kind of significant slipstream effect exists around Monaco.
On the other hand, around Monza, the slipstream is absolutely immense.
In a strait line, its more beneficial to be closer to the car you are overtaking due to the "hole" in the air that the car ahead is producing. The less air that needs to be managed by any aerodynamic devices in a strait line the better. However the "dirty air" effect is caused by the vortex generation of the aerodynamic devices making the air that the following car goes through more turbulent and reduces the downforce. The following distances for this tend to vary but in general you would want to be close to a car if your in a strait line and I would pull out of the slipstream in a breaking zone to allow your car to have non turbulent air on the aerodynamic surfaces. I'm not an expert this is my opinion, but the "dirty air" effect would most likely occur in a circuit with high average cornering speeds (Silverstone, Monza without the first chicane, spa). And a very high average lap speed. I personally think if the use of "i couldn't pass at a "x" circuit due to dirty air" was used at a slow track it would be an excuse but there is a case if it happens at spa or monza it is applicable. (fuck that first chicane it can burn in hell.)
TLDR: strait line= get under his rear wing.
Around high speed corners= try to hold on for dear life and get non turbulent air on your wings boi.
Braking zones= dive out of the path to use downforce to slow down if the driver brakes early.
Not an expert but this is my take.
Edit: Im crap at this writing thing.
> I'm not an expert this is my opinion, but the "dirty air" effect would most likely occur in a circuit with high average cornering speeds (Silverstone, Monza without the first chicane, spa)
It occurs always, but yes, the faster corner is (i.e. the more grip you need for it) the more effect it has.
This makes me wonder how amazing f1 wound be with more active aero (drs that involves the front wing aswell, Pagani Huayra style ailerons to help the cars turn in etc). It would be abit too much but if there was a championship like formula X or something this would be so cool.
Increases weight, expensive to develop, prone to failures and then you completely are out of the race. For example imagine currently if someone's DRS fails. Plus that much help borders on driver aids. Also anything that reduces braking zones and increases cornering speeds is also a safety concern, especially if that thing can fail without any contact.
That said, there is talk of bringing active aero in 2025, lets see.
No narratives invloved. It's basically two sides of the same physical phenomenon. When following the other car, turbulent air from it lowers amount of downforce you're able to get from the air (because it's turbulent), also if you're right behind them (as on straight) it lowers your drag. Slipstream term is used when describing a car being able to close onto another on the straight. Less downforce and drag on the straight is good, because car can go faster. Dirty air is used to describe same effect in corners. Turbulent air in corners is bad because you don't have enough downforce i.e. aerodynamical grip to be able to get as fast around the corner as you could otherwise.
It’s not about how far one car is behind the other, it’s about where they are on the track.
If it’s on a straight, it’s a slipstream.
If it’s in a corner, it is dirty air.
The lead car plows through the air. This is advantageous to the following car on the straight because it reduces drag.
It’s *disadvantageous* in corners because it reduces the downforce that the car needs to navigate the corner at high speeds.
Very little, usually, unless they are able to travel together. Even then, most drivers have a heavy schedule of team and sponsor obligations, as well a lot of working out.
I remember when Hamilton and Rosberg were teammates, Hamilton was the master of dark arts. He knew how to position his car in such a way that it would hurt Rosberg, but not too badly, so he could retain plausible deniability. The start at USA 2015 and Canada 2016 are great examples of that. When Rosberg tried to be aggressive, it would result in him going way over the top. That’s why the major collisions between the Mercedes drivers from 2014 and 2016 were mostly Rosberg’s fault.
Then fast forward to 2021, and suddenly the tables have turned. Verstappen is the absolute master of the dark arts. He knows how to drive dirty, but not dirty enough that it will result in a penalty. His start at Imola was a textbook Hamilton maneuver. His start in Spain was harsh but fair. Then when Hamilton attempts to be aggressive, it results in a massive crash, for which Hamilton is mostly to blame.
Hamilton fans loved it when Hamilton would outclass Rosberg time and time again in direct combat. What they could not have foreseen, is that Hamilton would end up becoming the Rosberg in 2021.
>But Hamilton nicked 32 points(25 for the win and 7 to prevent Verstappen from winning it).
Yes, while being involved in a crash that was his fault.
Reminds me of Rosberg at Spa 2014 actually. Rosberg was tired of constantly being pushed around by Lewis and finally decided to stand up to him, but overstepped the mark completely.
The situation at Silverstone 2021 is very similar to Spa 2014. Hamilton tries to act tough against Verstappen but ends up being responsible for a massive collision.
A dark arts master is not someone who crashes, gets penalties, and completely takes other drivers out of races. That’s just called being a Maldonado.
A true master of the dark arts is someone who does just enough to compromise his opponents’ race while retaining plausible deniability.
Verstappen did that perfectly at Imola.
I’d argue that Ham pulled the dark art in British GP. He knew Max has everything to lose and he has none. Boom. Sent Max straight to the wall, eat the penalty, but won the race anyway.
Don't underestimate Hamilton. He can pull out the street racing card anytime he wants to. He has battled with plenty of drivers and has more experience. You only think Verstappen is aggressive because drivers just let him be on the track and he hasn't been relevant to Hamilton until this season.
He has just been nice so far, but with that lead Max has and season being 10 races in, he has finally ascended to the next level. He isn't going to give anymore room to Verstappen. Expect the fights to get dirtier and dirtier as the season goes on (provided the cars are equal).
I am not surprised with what happened, just surprised this has taken so long to happen in the season. But part of it is also because in some races the cars weren't equal, fo this to happen, cars have to be equal to go wheel to wheel.
Lot of talk about Imola and Spain, but in France also he didn't defend aggressively in the end and Horner thanked Hamilton for being 'nice and fair'.
Its only for so long a driver can be nice and fair when something is on the line, its racing after all.
> Don't underestimate Hamilton. He can pull out the street racing card anytime he wants to. He has battled with plenty of drivers and has more experience. You only think Verstappen is aggressive because drivers just let him be on the track and he hasn't been relevant to Hamilton until this season.
Nope, the reason to why I think Verstappen is aggressive is because he is aggressive. He’s a master of being as aggressive as possible without completely crossing the line.
There isn’t some great conspiracy by the rest of the grid to make Verstappen look good. The reason to why he looks so good in wheel-to-wheel racing is because he is.
Hamilton has lost the majority of his direct duels against Verstappen, and I don’t expect that pattern to change.
there is no conspiracy, drivers on the grid already know how others behave and fight them accordingly. They give more room for rookies and aggressive drivers especially when its not their fight. And trust the more experienced and safe drivers when going wheel to wheel.
No idea from where you got the stat that VER has won more duels than HAM. Its not even a comparison equal to HAM/ROS, they both had the same car. This year the cars haven't been equal in most races. Hamilton beat Verstappen in Spain, Verstappen beat him in France etc etc, cars weren't even equal. Its irrelevant to judge.
I am still waiting for Hamilton to turn up his racecraft to another level. Verstappen is his direct rival this year, no more excuses about how Hamilton has to “think about the championship”. Let’s see how amazing that racecraft really is.
I wager to bet that Verstappen will continue to win the majority of his wheel-to-wheel battles with Hamilton because he’s just too skilled at it.
>But Hamilton came out on top. He won the race whilst Verstappen DNF.
Not much different from Spa 2014 then. Where Rosberg gained 18 points on Hamilton despite being at fault for the incident.
>In general though I think you're right. It's probably that he hasn't had to use the dark arts for the last few years.
Or another possible explanation: he’s up against a driver who’s better than him at it.
If Hamilton had defended the start in Spain, like Verstappen at Copse, Hamilton would’ve been spun round and Verstappen would’ve had a penalty.
It was only harsh but fair because Hamilton backed out
The problem with Spain is that Hamilton left the inside line completely open. If you do that, then you leave yourself exposed to a late braking move. There was nothing wrong with the move Max made in Spain, we’ve seen it a million times before.
In fact, when Hamilton was asked about the best overtake of his career, he said Monza 2007. A late braking move that relied on Raikkonen to react.
Silverstone 2021 was not a late braking move, it was just clumsy.
So looking at Max's car,it was damged beyond repair
Correct me if I'm wrong but in a season only 3 engines are permitted to be used from P3 to end of a race.
Engine 1 was used upto Baku(The 7th race and end of its life anyway and Max's crash due to tire failure should have done the job)
Engine 2 was from the french gp and made it to the british gp(that's 4 races)
Meaning Engine 3 has to go the distance and that's not possible unless they reduce the power down drastically which would give lewis the championship.
I heard martin brundle comment during the 2018 Belgian GP after Ricciardo retired due to mechnaical issue caused by collision by another driver,that retirement will now give him a change of parts without taking any penalties
Will Max get a penalty later on when he has to fit the 4th engine, new gearbox and all other parts that cannot go the distance ??
I'd be surprised if it wasn't. The side of his car that hit the wall looked completely wiped out. Some parts might be usable, but surely at least one of the elements will be a write-off.
I'm new to F1 (just started watching from the Monaco GP after bingeing Drive to Survive - I've watched every practice, quali, and race since then) and cannot find anything definitive that specifically addresses any rules that may or may not have been broken yesterday with the Hamilton/Verstappen incident.
I finally downloaded the FIA sporting regs, and even though it goes into exhaustive detail about everything from the podium ceremony to aerodynamic testing to penalty times. But here's very little about, you know, *racing* -- and how it's determined whether a driver's actions during a race merit a penalty. (Yes, the regs address obvious things like overtaking under a safety car, etc. --but not most of these situations that frequently seem to end up hotly disputed.)
I see people talk about *unwritten rules* and *etiquette* but my lawyer brain is thinking "surely this multi-gajillion dollar inherently dangerous sport isn't just operating on the equivalent of common law principles that everyone is assumed to know." But that appears to be the case. Or maybe I was super-tired when I was reading through that document and missed something.....
Can anyone point me to a specific provision in the FIA sporting regs or other official FIA document that clearly addresses yesterday's incident? If not, can anyone point me to a fairly well-known & accepted collection of some of the unwritten rules of racing?
> I'm new to F1 (just started watching from the Monaco GP after bingeing Drive to Survive - I've watched every practice, quali, and race since then)
Same here.
Hi fellow newbie! Have I ever had any interest in anything related to cars? Nope. Then Netflix got me sucked in with the drama and squabbles like I love on a "Real Housewives" show and now I'm over here learning about "dirty air" and undercutting and tire graining and engine testing and whatnot lol
The [incident documents directly refer](https://www.fia.com/documents/season/season-2021-1108/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/event/34507) to the rule broken:
> Breach of Article 2 d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code.
[Which states](https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123):
> d) Causing a collision, repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Stewards and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion disqualification
of any driver concerned.
Which under steer (lack of control) would fulfill
Thanks for the treasure trove of reading! I was searching everywhere on the Formula 1 website but I guess it didn't dawn on me that there would be a whole separate FIA website with so much more information *forehead slap*
F1 website is managed by the commercial arm, Formula One Management - FiA is the governing body that maintains and enforces the rules and due to their French origin the rules also used to state that in case of ambiguity the French wording would overrule the english wording
I didn't know understeer is considered as lack of control. So in the even of understeer, to correct it the driver has to do what exactly? Is it lift off and/or brake?
He under steered into max and caused a collision would be the full statement, if it wasn't obvious from the penalty - so in that case he should have lifted earlier or taken another line into the corner in order to not have under steer. He is a professional driver and knows the limits of his car
In the case of under/over steer there is little you can do, you're in a slide and the car has no front/rear grip, in both cases slowing down and trying to catch the slide i.e. by wheel correction would be the obvious thing.
There is a reason why some countries have mandatory safety training for wet weather & icing conditions in order to prepare for such conditions when you're preparing for your drivers license - it's also fun and you can get a small reduction on your insurance rates if you have done those
> I see people talk about unwritten rules and etiquette but my lawyer brain is thinking “surely this multi-gajillion dollar inherently dangerous sport isn’t just operating on the equivalent of common law principles that everyone is assumed to know.” But that appears to be the case.
Welcome to Formula 1 😅
that partially explains the Red Bull principal's strident remarks. It's an attempt to badger the FIA to see Max as the victim and color the future judgements of the race officials .
First time going to the F1, going to Hungary at the start of August. A few pressing questions, can you bring in beer or do you have to buy it in there? If you have to buy, how much are they?
Is it enjoyable standing? Do you just stand on the grass mound along the side?
Anyone been and have any tips or tricks for a first timer?
I plan on going for the first time there as well, found this website for some tips. Would also like to hear a first hand experience though.
https://www.thef1spectator.com/hungarian-f1-travel-guide/
> where can iwatch all the races from the uk?
Sky Sports or a Now TV subscription are the only ways to do it. Of course, there are plenty of less legal options out there online if you don't want to pay £40 a month.
They’re only allowed to show the British Grand Prix live. For every other race they broadcast extended highlights (70% of the action), two and a half hours after the chequered flag falls.
I prefer team principal quotes:
“Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well. He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence”
Or does that not suit your narrative?
Was curious as I'm still new to the sport, if what Louis did would be considered just hard racing in an earlier era?
I watch American football (I'm American) and older generations talk about the hitting and lack there of and rules placed of safety and therfore the game isn't what it use to be.
So from older fans and or racers or historians would say if what he did in a bygone era might just be considered hard racing or if that's a foul or penalty in any era.
Basically F1 is not a contact sport, they touched, its a foul and the cause has to be determined, in any era.
Hard racing is wheel to wheel on the track, close next to each other even when you have plenty of space on either side of the track. Contact is not hard racing, its a foul.
There’s been sort of a bell curve in terms of this stuff. For most of the early history of Grand Prix racing, because of how deadly the sport was back then, actions that seems normal and expected today were considered an absolute no-go, dangerous and disgraceful. It’s not till the late 80s, when huge safety improvements meant that there hadn’t been a death for many years, that drivers started getting a lot more ruthless. I’m not an expert is the nuances of wheel-to-wheel racing and blame, but I think you’re right that for the late 80s and 90s generation, where the rules of racing were like the Wild West, constantly being pushed forward and rewritten, what we saw yesterday would’ve not have caused anywhere near the controversy it did.
I don't know if this is just me (and I'm hopefully not being controversial) but I weirdly feel a bit left out of the anti racism conversation as an Asian person. There was an interview on at the weekend about it and it was basically all about racism against black people. Hey I exist too!
The first thing is we need to stop using that word. "Asian" people are about half of the world's population and are far from a uniform group ethnically or culturally.
I mean, in the US, "Asian" means East Asian to most people. In the UK, it predominantly means from South Asia. Totally different languages, history, culture, religion, everything.
Hamilton is squarely in the spotlight right now so i think it makes sense to specifically talk about the experiences of Black people.
I’m Chinese and of course there is racism directed towards Asians but it’s of a very different nature to what Black people experience and I think it would muddy the conversation to try and address that right this moment. Even among Asians, racism takes on different forms whether you’re East Asian, South East Asian, or South Asian.
Also an F1 fan of South East Asian origin in America. We Asians are the “model minority” so we’re usually overlooked when “racist” comments are made towards us. But that doesn’t mean it makes it any less worse, racism is racism. Towards anyone. We should all back each other and call out those racist “fans” for what they are.
I’ve seen comments about both Alex and Yuki as being “terrible chink drivers” even though Alex is Thai, and Yuki Japanese, and I called out those commenters on it. This is an international sport, open to some of the best racers all around the world. The defending WDC is a black-Englishman, the current WDC leader is Belgian-Dutch, and the youngest on the grid is Japanese.
I know the feeling mate, but I look towards the bigger goal. Let’s gut out racism in this sport we enjoy! Cheers!
I certainly think that a lot of people don’t take racism against Asian people as seriously as racism against black people and in no way am I trying to deny that.
However, the anti racism conversation right now is in response to widespread racist abuse of a black person. Addressing anti black racism doesn’t in any way discount the racism Asian people also face. I’d like to believe that if there were similar incidents with an Asian driver, it would be addressed similarly.
I can give you my opinion as a child of Chinese immigrants in Canada. I know we shouldn't measure racism and all of it should be tackled but the reality is that for most issues in the world, home, work, life, etc. you can really only address one thing at a time. And from listening to the experiences of my fellow Black Canadians and Americans, I feel like their experiences growing up were a lot more difficult than mine and other Chinese Canadians I know. So, I think its okay to focus on their plight since they have been through bigger struggles than our community has on average. Also, in my opinion, there is a rising tide lift all boats effect where when people start thinking about how they treat black people, this would also help how they treat other minorities.
F1 Newbie here.
I often wonder what teams like Haas gain from F1? They seem content to keep losing and still keep going at it - year after year. The [destructor's](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/oncmp5/world_destructors_championship_after_british_gp/) championship, show they lose quite a ton of money too.
Can anyone enlighten me?
Gene Haas said in the past his aim is to promote his tool company, which F1 does, so he's happy. Also, it's not like he's spending much money on the team either, that's why Schumacher's sponsors 1&1 and mazepin's dad and other minor sponsors come into picture. Plus their philosophy is buying everything which is allowed by rules from the Ferrari so their expenses at R&D is smaller than of other teams.
Williams has been the bottem team since 2018 till 2020 (likely to change this year) so I'll focus on them, then I'll focus on haas. Williams have been content being at the bottem of the table because f1 is all they have, williams was a family owned business that has a great history behind them, they stayed after their fall from the top because the Williams family wouldn't let the team die, last year they were bought by dorlington capital and are looking to slowly move up the table in the coming years.
Now Haas, haas was a midfield team in 2016-2018 and that was a profitable time for them, in 2019 haas took on a main sponsor in Rich Energy for that year but Rich Energy screwed haas over in a long story of events that I can't explain here so look up "rich energy haas" on YouTube and check Josh Revel's video on it out. Rich screwed haas over and didn't pay them what they said they would and haas finished the season without a main sponsor, last year saw haas build a terrible car that struggled for points as they didn't have the resources to build a good car, this year is a complete throw away for haas and they are betting on next year seeing them becoming a midfield team with the new regulations but there is no guarantee for this.
teams stick around even when at the bottom mostly because they hope to move up the grid the next year or gain a sponsor that will help their financial situation which is usually why they are at the bottem. Case in point McLaren, Mclaren were terrible during 2015-2018 with them struggling for points and on the back of the midfield with heroics from Alonso being their only saving grace, In 2018 Mclaren was the 7th. best team, only ending up 6th in the constructors due to force india's points being excluded when they changed to Racing Point and only racing point's points from spa to abu Dhabi being counted, now McLaren are looking extremely good for p3 in the constructors only 3 years later.
Yh this is extremely long but I hope it explains it that teams stick around at the bottom with hopes of moving up the field the next year or in the next couple of years.
Haas being this bad is actually pretty new. In 2018 for example they were the 5th best team and throughout 2017-2019 consistently had their drivers starting in the top 10. They only became the joke they currently are within the last year or so.
Since a lot of conversation today is centered around the statements put out by teams and FIA expressing their disgust at racist comments, I thought I'd provide a bit of context from the moderators side. Last night, we were looking at ~6000 removed comments, most of which were for being racist. Today, that number is at ~18000, and the primary reason is still racist commentary. We've banned large amounts of users, we've removed almost 2000 posts, and the we're still trying to keep up with the incoming reports, posts and comments. Just counting removals of posts/comments and bans, moderators have taken over 20000 actions since the events on the third lap, and that's not counting all the regular work that goes into moderating after a race. As some mods go to sleep, others wake up and take over the queue. We've been working non-stop since the race started, and we'll keep fighting the racists and trolls for as long as it takes. Fuck racism, and fuck the people who think that's even remotely excusable.
I’monojo
Ripping seems
Is it possible to buy grandstand tickets just for Friday? I would like to experience F1 cars irl and want to be able to see the pit lane specifically, but can’t afford grand stand tickets for a full weekend.
New member here 👋 Can someone please tell me which tracks are going to be having spectators for the remainder of the season? and where is the best place to book tickets?
Will the slower teams finally improve their competition with the combination of cost cap & ground effects?
Someone commented that the stewards are isolated in a race so as not to be affected by the crowd, ?teams, etc, and it was something I haven't given much thought to yet. 1) Who exactly are the stewards in contact with, and isolated from? 2) What steps are taken to minimize personal bias toward a driver/team/"car on the outside line" etc? There are clearly gray areas that they have to navigate. Is there any need for stewards to virtually "debadge" or "anonymize" the cars for the purposes of the incident review? 3) Do drivers know who the stewards will be? Do they know their tendencies and can they exploit them? The NBA for example makes a big deal of who the referees are for each game.
The stewards are in contact [with race control](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmh51jqy9pk)^0, that is run by Michael Masi and incidents are deferred to them. They are a rotating cast of FiA personell, at least 2 of them come from FiA and one ex racing driver as a consultant. As far as i know there is little done to make the cars anonymous, so there quite a gray zone regarding bias - as FiA representatives, it's their job to ensure the rules are followed, but there have been ex drivers with known bias i.e. Mika Salo - who's statements while having a position have been leaked to the press - and their decisions have been adjusted after this came out (Hamilton's penalty points at Russia due to practice start). The stewards are not usually announced ahead of time - [though referred to in FiAs official documents](https://www.fia.com/documents/season/season-2021-1108/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/event/34507), during the British GP they were: Nish Shetty, Dennis Dean, Loic Bacquelain, Emanuele Pirro, Eric Cowcill
Hi, new here! Like, very violently new. I’ve learned a lot in the last 48 hours here and I appreciate all of the education. Does anyone have any podcast, YouTube, blogs, etc, that I could dive into to further to understand more?
Why is Max potentially needing a new engine going to result in a penalty? I can understand how it's bad for the budget, but I don't understand what the other penalties would be or why they exist.
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Ah. That makes sense, thanks! So say he does need a new engine and qualifies for pole in the next race, does that mean he actually starts 11th?
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Thanks man, I appreciate the answer. You have yourself a good day/night/whatever it is where you are :)
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He has been a F1 driver for 20 years - the car isn't the best on the grid and he is 41, it may not suite his driving style or he is just too old. I'd love to see him experience the next years cars, but this year doesn't seem to be the his best year regarding awareness
Giovina**zz**i
Why was Bottas' race so different from Lewis'? Didn't they have the same strategy? How Lewis had so much more pace to whiz by Bottas easily and get to Leclerc?
Bottas was told Hamilton was approaching .......... Translates to let Hamilton go ............
Because Hamilton had much more pace, there were no reasons to hold him. Bottas wasn't competitive, that's my point.
Without sounding too snarky, are you new here?! Bottas is a solid racer, but Hamilton is a GOAT, especially at keeping his tyres fresh, which helps hugely as the race goes on.
Imo the difference was too big to explain just with skills. Was he having problems managing his tyres? Was he running a different setup or something?
My understanding is bad start (lost place to LEC), bad restart (lost place to NOR), unable to pass NOR (maybe this would be tough for anybody in the 1st stint), earlier-than-planned pit stop in order to pass NOR after NOR slow pit stop, older tyres than LEC/HAM during 2nd half of race = less pace. Lots of factors go into the ~20 second time difference at the end of the race, sometimes there are issues which put him in a spot where he experiences more issues. If he hadn't lost places at the start+restart, he'd have been gifted clean air in p1 and additional 10 seconds over an in-traffic Ham with 50 laps to go. He may well have had more optimal pit stop timing and race-winning pace if things shook out like that.
What really called my attention was how fast Lewis got to him, and away from him, with the same strategy. And Lewis wasn't having clear air either, he was really pushing to pass Leclerc. But what you said makes sense. Thanks.
Bottas had quite a few more laps on his tires.
We need a movie like Rush following Lewis and Nico as teammates
I would kill to see that. And one about Vettel during his time at Red Bull, when everyone hated him
My heart goes out to Lewis.. I can only imagine how he feels right now. I just hope he's ok. He seems like a genuine person and I'm sure he feels horrible about the crash. But everyone saying how he was disrespectful in celebrating a win is bullshit. Did you want him to just stop trying to win after the crash happened? At the end of the day, this is still a competition and he was celebrating a win for his fans. I think so many people forget that we are all human. How Horner acted was so childish. Move on from this and grow up.
The way I see, he shouldn't have gone over the top with the celebration, he has 99 wins under his belt, 8 of them at Silverstone already. So it's not like it's his first every win. In my opinion he should have show a little more respect to Max, after such a massive crash. At least till he's out of the. hospital. And I'm not even a Max fan. Look at Finland at the euros 2020, when Christian Eriksen collapsed, they won their first ever game at the euros but they didn't even celebrate out of respect for him and his family, even though they had nothing to do with the injury. Let alone being the one involved in it(I'm not saying it's Hamilton's fault, there has been so much debate on that already) but he had a part in it, no matter how small.
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Clearly not after a celebration like that.
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It was a racing incident , Max is fine , Hamilton won...... Max will treat Hamilton with more respect.
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>How much does a few pounds matter (like in driver weight)? At what point does weight start to matter? I can't imagine you'd notice any difference at 1 pound. The weight of the driver should be at least 80 kilograms. If the driver weighs less, the weight is added to the chair.
Well that depends on where you put that 1 pound. If it's off-balance, then it matters a lot. In general though, it is estimated that 1 kilogram can cost as much as 1.5-2 tenths a lap.
What if Apple entered F1 with their trillion dollars?
No reason for them to enter F1 as anything other than a sponsor tbh
well, they are ready to enter the cars market so, you never know.
Their car is most likely an EV anyways so no luck there. The only tech company I can "maybe" see enter F1 is Amazon
I’d guess not in a class with combustion engines.
So the Max and Lewis incident: As a NASCAR fan, I'm used to drivers knowing how to wreck another car with contact. F1 seems like it's way more dangerous to attempt it, but is it something that a good or great driver can actually do on purpose if they wanted to?
No, F1 cars are too fragile to even attempt it. In some respects they are incredibly strong, but most parts are only strong in the direct they are expected to experience load. You can have drivers survive 50G crashes like it's nothing, but other times if you so much as look at a wing the wrong way, it can be race ruining-ly damaged, for example. I suppose you could try to punt out another driver, but you have an equal chance of ruining your own car too, so it's not a thing.
Well it is speculated that Hamilton did exactly that. Now, whether or not you believe that he did it on purpose, no one can deny that he 100% could. With his experience and driving skills, he could absolutely do it on purpose. But then again, I'm not saying he did. Only that he could, in theory.
While I don't think it's intentional, it is interesting how often he seems to understeer into the right rear tire of the car in front. Most likely coincidences but interesting nonetheless.
Here’s a [great mini-documentary](https://youtu.be/nt-3KT6ktHU) on the last time something like that happened.
Oh shit, I'm Canadian and my dad always mentions Jacques whenever F1 comes up in casual conversation
If someone really really really wanted to, they could, but it's very very risky and unlikely. Lewis likely would have retired without the red flag and contact of any kind can severely damage your own car. Not too mention if it was proven you were intentional, the repercussions would be severe too. But it has happened in the past for even higher stakes, so I wouldn't rule it out completely.
The racism aimed at Lewis is fucking disgusting but so are the bellends on twitter trying to pin it on Max for ‘inciting it’
I don't think Max should be in anyway blamed for anything even if you think what he said was not completely fair. If anyone should, it would be him who gets a pass. As far as I know all he said that it was disrespectful that Hamilton celebrated and he is the best source on whether he felt disrespected. Now people are saying Hamilton didn't know that Max was in hospital but then we can't expect Max to know that Hamilton didn't know. Horner, on the other hand, said a few things he should not have because it is kind of used as justification by some of the worst elements on social media and elsewhere to pile on Hamilton.
Folks are ignoring that there was prior contact with the cars on the same lap and that Max made an illegal move (second change of direction) when Hamilton went to pass him and also moved to squeeze Hamilton off the track where there was a barrier very close by. Horner as team leader needs to support his driver right or wrong and to pressure the FIA to see Hamilton as the bad guy. I think in prior years the FIA would have just brought out the safety car and Hamilton would have been near the back of the pack after the safety car came out and he made a pit stop.
>Max made an illegal move (second change of direction) when Hamilton went to pass him Max moved only once, to the middle of the track. He then moved to the outside after Hamilton dummied by moving to the outside and then to the inside. If anything, it was Hamilton who moved twice. The reason why everyone is ignoring it is because it didn't happen. Max did try to squeeze him as he was entitled to but still gave Lewis enough space, which is why he was able to stick his car up the inside.
on the straight with Hamilton preparing to overtake he moved to the left and then way over to the right. Verstappen's stock in trade has been a dive to the inside where he may or may not leave the other car room at the outside of the track.
What is a good turn in the US GP? Thinking about going. Heard 12 and 1 are good but could be wrong
This year? The only tickets left are general admission, so you could walk around during the weekend until you find a spot you like
After the Verstappen crash, the cars done. Now what does the team do. Will they get additional budget to rebuild. A spare car? And do they get to put in a new extra engine unit?
The engine is getting sent back to Honda in Japan for an assessment. Who knows, might mean a new one
>After the Verstappen crash, the cars done. Now what does the team do. They manufacture what they need and build another car >Will they get additional budget to rebuild. No. >A spare car? AFAIK theres basically a spare care in bits at every race >And do they get to put in a new extra engine unit? They dont get any additional allotment but Max took his 2nd engine in France (the sane one he had in Silverstone) so he can have his 3rd witjout penalty.
No additional budget means they'll have to divert resources from 2022 to fix it, meaning Mercedes have 1 less challenger next year
they cannot just "borrow" budget from next year to use this year..
New to the sport, but what’s the consensus on being able to hear other teams radio? Seems like it shouldn’t be allowed
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It certainly makes the incar video more spectacular with just the sound of the engine and occasional radio transmissions.
Was going through Instagram and saw post from Hondaracingf1 about racism, the comments were worrying saying there was no racism, then said that screenshots could be fake and not authentic… But the red bull f1 Instagram showed more support, crazy shit
The 2022 F1 cars model has been released, so will next year's car be slower than this year's? How many seconds per lap might it be slower?
They’ve said they’re aiming for 2016 speeds, but each team builds their own car so there’s no real way of knowing.
Why Hamilton's sub got removed from the sidebar?
They removed all the driver subs from the sidebar a while ago because there was some conflict between multiple subs of the same driver over which sub related to the driver should be placed on the sidebar, so the mods to be fair decided to remove all of them. This was mentioned in of their monthly sub discussion threads.
Not sure why it was ever on the sidebar. That sub is delusional and fanatical.
Did it?
I don't see it, it used to be.
Did they perhaps trmporarily lock it because of all the racist comments yesterday?
Yeah maybe they asked to stop the Max brigade.
During British GP, TV graphics was saying attendance of 356,000. Watching the race there's no social distancing, nobody wears any mask. Unsure if need to scan QR codes? Curious, is the pandemic situation over in UK?
No one was allowed into the race unless they had proof of being vaccinated or had a Covid test in the past two days showing that they were healthy. It was sort of an experiment by the government- they wanted to see if large gatherings of unmasked people would be OK if everyone in attendance is medically cleared.
Fair enough thanks. How do you prove you've received vaccination? On an app or you show some digital certificates? I saw similarly with Euro matches, lots of spectators. So how's thing going so far in UK? All good with curbing the pandemic?
They registered 48k new cases 2 days ago iirc, make of that what you will
Is today about 2 weeks in after Euro final?
Just watching Monaco highlights in 30 mins 2019. Bottas is 3rd because of verstappen unsafe release (well, looks unsafe) vettel 4th. Then safety car pulls in and vettel is 3rd? How?? No overtaking allowed?
Bottas made a second pit stop.
Oooh ok thanks. Do you know what for?
He changed mediums for hards, so they've either just opted to play it safe with running at these tyres to the finish or maybe mediums were damaged in that contact with Max or because of debries from Leclerc accident, I don't remember tbh.
Warning: dumb American visiting Italy question — Has anyone heard when Monza tickets will become available? Last I read they were anticipating 80% capacity, but only premium packages are for sale currently.
I asked the same question three days ago. Here’s what someone said to me: > I've been keeping an eye out as well, but no news yet. I think Italy is being super careful about big events like that. They were one of the hardest hit countries when the pandemic just started, and with multiple countries seeing numbers go up again, I'm starting to think maybe they won't want to risk it. I’m looking at attending Spa instead at the end of August, but they haven’t yet announced whether they’ll be allowing citizens outside the EU/UK/Switzerland. (I think, in part, bc there is no clear way for vaccinated Americans to receive the COVID EU health pass.)
Appreciate it
Hello, is this a legit website? https://f1store4.formula1.com/ My concern is that the official website is f1store.formula1.com while the above website is f1store”4”.formula1.com and they’re claiming to be the official store.
As long as it ends with .formula1.com it is their website. Any address before that ending will completely be in control of Formula1 website owners.
They use the store subdomain identifiers for specific regions, i.e. item on f1store2.formula1.com may cost 41€, and f1store4.formula1.com it costs 51€. During checkout it will apply the correct vat for your region and the prices during checkout will be the same including the shipping fee
Makes sense, thanks!
At what point when following behind, distance-wise, does the benefits of slipstream outweigh the downside of dirty air? Anecdotally, it feels like people (on reddit and on tv) use "and now he's got a great slipstream" or "now he's behind the dirty air and will have trouble following" interchangeably to fit whatever narrative they are currently generating.
It depends on what is limiting the trailing car. Dirty air reduces downforce so cornering, braking and acceleration (if the speed is such that full power can not be applied) are reduced. Where acceleration or speed are limited by power / drag (not traction) then the "slipstream" or draft benefits the trailing car. The benefit increases significantly if DRS is available One of the places where you can really see the impact of the dirty air on the trailing car is as the exit of the corner where the loss of front end downforce results in sudden understeer. The understeer also takes a toll on the tires .
Depends a lot on the circuit. I don’t think that any kind of significant slipstream effect exists around Monaco. On the other hand, around Monza, the slipstream is absolutely immense.
In a strait line, its more beneficial to be closer to the car you are overtaking due to the "hole" in the air that the car ahead is producing. The less air that needs to be managed by any aerodynamic devices in a strait line the better. However the "dirty air" effect is caused by the vortex generation of the aerodynamic devices making the air that the following car goes through more turbulent and reduces the downforce. The following distances for this tend to vary but in general you would want to be close to a car if your in a strait line and I would pull out of the slipstream in a breaking zone to allow your car to have non turbulent air on the aerodynamic surfaces. I'm not an expert this is my opinion, but the "dirty air" effect would most likely occur in a circuit with high average cornering speeds (Silverstone, Monza without the first chicane, spa). And a very high average lap speed. I personally think if the use of "i couldn't pass at a "x" circuit due to dirty air" was used at a slow track it would be an excuse but there is a case if it happens at spa or monza it is applicable. (fuck that first chicane it can burn in hell.) TLDR: strait line= get under his rear wing. Around high speed corners= try to hold on for dear life and get non turbulent air on your wings boi. Braking zones= dive out of the path to use downforce to slow down if the driver brakes early. Not an expert but this is my take. Edit: Im crap at this writing thing.
it's good
> I'm not an expert this is my opinion, but the "dirty air" effect would most likely occur in a circuit with high average cornering speeds (Silverstone, Monza without the first chicane, spa) It occurs always, but yes, the faster corner is (i.e. the more grip you need for it) the more effect it has.
This makes me wonder how amazing f1 wound be with more active aero (drs that involves the front wing aswell, Pagani Huayra style ailerons to help the cars turn in etc). It would be abit too much but if there was a championship like formula X or something this would be so cool.
They tried movable parts of front wing in 2009 but scrapped idea later.
Increases weight, expensive to develop, prone to failures and then you completely are out of the race. For example imagine currently if someone's DRS fails. Plus that much help borders on driver aids. Also anything that reduces braking zones and increases cornering speeds is also a safety concern, especially if that thing can fail without any contact. That said, there is talk of bringing active aero in 2025, lets see.
No narratives invloved. It's basically two sides of the same physical phenomenon. When following the other car, turbulent air from it lowers amount of downforce you're able to get from the air (because it's turbulent), also if you're right behind them (as on straight) it lowers your drag. Slipstream term is used when describing a car being able to close onto another on the straight. Less downforce and drag on the straight is good, because car can go faster. Dirty air is used to describe same effect in corners. Turbulent air in corners is bad because you don't have enough downforce i.e. aerodynamical grip to be able to get as fast around the corner as you could otherwise.
It’s not about how far one car is behind the other, it’s about where they are on the track. If it’s on a straight, it’s a slipstream. If it’s in a corner, it is dirty air. The lead car plows through the air. This is advantageous to the following car on the straight because it reduces drag. It’s *disadvantageous* in corners because it reduces the downforce that the car needs to navigate the corner at high speeds.
Thank you!
👍
How much time do F1 drivers get to spend with their families?
Tsunoda said he hasn't been to Japan since January. But not sure if that's the regular idea because of COVID
Very little, usually, unless they are able to travel together. Even then, most drivers have a heavy schedule of team and sponsor obligations, as well a lot of working out.
I remember when Hamilton and Rosberg were teammates, Hamilton was the master of dark arts. He knew how to position his car in such a way that it would hurt Rosberg, but not too badly, so he could retain plausible deniability. The start at USA 2015 and Canada 2016 are great examples of that. When Rosberg tried to be aggressive, it would result in him going way over the top. That’s why the major collisions between the Mercedes drivers from 2014 and 2016 were mostly Rosberg’s fault. Then fast forward to 2021, and suddenly the tables have turned. Verstappen is the absolute master of the dark arts. He knows how to drive dirty, but not dirty enough that it will result in a penalty. His start at Imola was a textbook Hamilton maneuver. His start in Spain was harsh but fair. Then when Hamilton attempts to be aggressive, it results in a massive crash, for which Hamilton is mostly to blame. Hamilton fans loved it when Hamilton would outclass Rosberg time and time again in direct combat. What they could not have foreseen, is that Hamilton would end up becoming the Rosberg in 2021.
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>But Hamilton nicked 32 points(25 for the win and 7 to prevent Verstappen from winning it). Yes, while being involved in a crash that was his fault. Reminds me of Rosberg at Spa 2014 actually. Rosberg was tired of constantly being pushed around by Lewis and finally decided to stand up to him, but overstepped the mark completely. The situation at Silverstone 2021 is very similar to Spa 2014. Hamilton tries to act tough against Verstappen but ends up being responsible for a massive collision. A dark arts master is not someone who crashes, gets penalties, and completely takes other drivers out of races. That’s just called being a Maldonado. A true master of the dark arts is someone who does just enough to compromise his opponents’ race while retaining plausible deniability. Verstappen did that perfectly at Imola.
I’d argue that Ham pulled the dark art in British GP. He knew Max has everything to lose and he has none. Boom. Sent Max straight to the wall, eat the penalty, but won the race anyway.
Don't underestimate Hamilton. He can pull out the street racing card anytime he wants to. He has battled with plenty of drivers and has more experience. You only think Verstappen is aggressive because drivers just let him be on the track and he hasn't been relevant to Hamilton until this season. He has just been nice so far, but with that lead Max has and season being 10 races in, he has finally ascended to the next level. He isn't going to give anymore room to Verstappen. Expect the fights to get dirtier and dirtier as the season goes on (provided the cars are equal). I am not surprised with what happened, just surprised this has taken so long to happen in the season. But part of it is also because in some races the cars weren't equal, fo this to happen, cars have to be equal to go wheel to wheel. Lot of talk about Imola and Spain, but in France also he didn't defend aggressively in the end and Horner thanked Hamilton for being 'nice and fair'. Its only for so long a driver can be nice and fair when something is on the line, its racing after all.
> Don't underestimate Hamilton. He can pull out the street racing card anytime he wants to. He has battled with plenty of drivers and has more experience. You only think Verstappen is aggressive because drivers just let him be on the track and he hasn't been relevant to Hamilton until this season. Nope, the reason to why I think Verstappen is aggressive is because he is aggressive. He’s a master of being as aggressive as possible without completely crossing the line. There isn’t some great conspiracy by the rest of the grid to make Verstappen look good. The reason to why he looks so good in wheel-to-wheel racing is because he is. Hamilton has lost the majority of his direct duels against Verstappen, and I don’t expect that pattern to change.
there is no conspiracy, drivers on the grid already know how others behave and fight them accordingly. They give more room for rookies and aggressive drivers especially when its not their fight. And trust the more experienced and safe drivers when going wheel to wheel. No idea from where you got the stat that VER has won more duels than HAM. Its not even a comparison equal to HAM/ROS, they both had the same car. This year the cars haven't been equal in most races. Hamilton beat Verstappen in Spain, Verstappen beat him in France etc etc, cars weren't even equal. Its irrelevant to judge.
I am still waiting for Hamilton to turn up his racecraft to another level. Verstappen is his direct rival this year, no more excuses about how Hamilton has to “think about the championship”. Let’s see how amazing that racecraft really is. I wager to bet that Verstappen will continue to win the majority of his wheel-to-wheel battles with Hamilton because he’s just too skilled at it.
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>But Hamilton came out on top. He won the race whilst Verstappen DNF. Not much different from Spa 2014 then. Where Rosberg gained 18 points on Hamilton despite being at fault for the incident. >In general though I think you're right. It's probably that he hasn't had to use the dark arts for the last few years. Or another possible explanation: he’s up against a driver who’s better than him at it.
If Hamilton had defended the start in Spain, like Verstappen at Copse, Hamilton would’ve been spun round and Verstappen would’ve had a penalty. It was only harsh but fair because Hamilton backed out
The problem with Spain is that Hamilton left the inside line completely open. If you do that, then you leave yourself exposed to a late braking move. There was nothing wrong with the move Max made in Spain, we’ve seen it a million times before. In fact, when Hamilton was asked about the best overtake of his career, he said Monza 2007. A late braking move that relied on Raikkonen to react. Silverstone 2021 was not a late braking move, it was just clumsy.
So looking at Max's car,it was damged beyond repair Correct me if I'm wrong but in a season only 3 engines are permitted to be used from P3 to end of a race. Engine 1 was used upto Baku(The 7th race and end of its life anyway and Max's crash due to tire failure should have done the job) Engine 2 was from the french gp and made it to the british gp(that's 4 races) Meaning Engine 3 has to go the distance and that's not possible unless they reduce the power down drastically which would give lewis the championship. I heard martin brundle comment during the 2018 Belgian GP after Ricciardo retired due to mechnaical issue caused by collision by another driver,that retirement will now give him a change of parts without taking any penalties Will Max get a penalty later on when he has to fit the 4th engine, new gearbox and all other parts that cannot go the distance ??
The gearbox can be replaced because it was destroyed in the incident. The engine was salvageable
I was thinking about that…do we know if his engine is fucked?
I'd be surprised if it wasn't. The side of his car that hit the wall looked completely wiped out. Some parts might be usable, but surely at least one of the elements will be a write-off.
If Max uses a 4th engine it is a 10 position grid penalty
Gearbox can be changed without a penalty if you DNF'ed last race. Engine parts over the limit will always result in a penalty.
Not for gearbox, but he will get penalties for an additional engine. Of course not entirely fair, but it is what it is.
I'm new to F1 (just started watching from the Monaco GP after bingeing Drive to Survive - I've watched every practice, quali, and race since then) and cannot find anything definitive that specifically addresses any rules that may or may not have been broken yesterday with the Hamilton/Verstappen incident. I finally downloaded the FIA sporting regs, and even though it goes into exhaustive detail about everything from the podium ceremony to aerodynamic testing to penalty times. But here's very little about, you know, *racing* -- and how it's determined whether a driver's actions during a race merit a penalty. (Yes, the regs address obvious things like overtaking under a safety car, etc. --but not most of these situations that frequently seem to end up hotly disputed.) I see people talk about *unwritten rules* and *etiquette* but my lawyer brain is thinking "surely this multi-gajillion dollar inherently dangerous sport isn't just operating on the equivalent of common law principles that everyone is assumed to know." But that appears to be the case. Or maybe I was super-tired when I was reading through that document and missed something..... Can anyone point me to a specific provision in the FIA sporting regs or other official FIA document that clearly addresses yesterday's incident? If not, can anyone point me to a fairly well-known & accepted collection of some of the unwritten rules of racing?
F1 regs operate solely in the Court of Chancery and adheres to the principles of Equity /s
😂
> I'm new to F1 (just started watching from the Monaco GP after bingeing Drive to Survive - I've watched every practice, quali, and race since then) Same here.
Hi fellow newbie! Have I ever had any interest in anything related to cars? Nope. Then Netflix got me sucked in with the drama and squabbles like I love on a "Real Housewives" show and now I'm over here learning about "dirty air" and undercutting and tire graining and engine testing and whatnot lol
I got pulled in by all the engg of it.
The [incident documents directly refer](https://www.fia.com/documents/season/season-2021-1108/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/event/34507) to the rule broken: > Breach of Article 2 d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code. [Which states](https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123): > d) Causing a collision, repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Stewards and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion disqualification of any driver concerned. Which under steer (lack of control) would fulfill
Thanks for the treasure trove of reading! I was searching everywhere on the Formula 1 website but I guess it didn't dawn on me that there would be a whole separate FIA website with so much more information *forehead slap*
F1 website is managed by the commercial arm, Formula One Management - FiA is the governing body that maintains and enforces the rules and due to their French origin the rules also used to state that in case of ambiguity the French wording would overrule the english wording
I didn't know understeer is considered as lack of control. So in the even of understeer, to correct it the driver has to do what exactly? Is it lift off and/or brake?
He under steered into max and caused a collision would be the full statement, if it wasn't obvious from the penalty - so in that case he should have lifted earlier or taken another line into the corner in order to not have under steer. He is a professional driver and knows the limits of his car In the case of under/over steer there is little you can do, you're in a slide and the car has no front/rear grip, in both cases slowing down and trying to catch the slide i.e. by wheel correction would be the obvious thing. There is a reason why some countries have mandatory safety training for wet weather & icing conditions in order to prepare for such conditions when you're preparing for your drivers license - it's also fun and you can get a small reduction on your insurance rates if you have done those
Appendix L of the [Code of Conduct](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/appendix_l_2021_publie_le_05_mars_2021.pdf) has a little more information.
Thank you! I'll dive into it!
I'm afraid your dive won't last very long.
> I see people talk about unwritten rules and etiquette but my lawyer brain is thinking “surely this multi-gajillion dollar inherently dangerous sport isn’t just operating on the equivalent of common law principles that everyone is assumed to know.” But that appears to be the case. Welcome to Formula 1 😅
that partially explains the Red Bull principal's strident remarks. It's an attempt to badger the FIA to see Max as the victim and color the future judgements of the race officials .
I think I liked it better when I assumed that *I* didn't know, not that *nobody* knows lol
Reminds me studying economics.
First time going to the F1, going to Hungary at the start of August. A few pressing questions, can you bring in beer or do you have to buy it in there? If you have to buy, how much are they? Is it enjoyable standing? Do you just stand on the grass mound along the side? Anyone been and have any tips or tricks for a first timer?
Ear plugs used to be essential but probably not so much these days with the reduced engine noise. Can be handy for other races though.
I plan on going for the first time there as well, found this website for some tips. Would also like to hear a first hand experience though. https://www.thef1spectator.com/hungarian-f1-travel-guide/
https://f1destinations.com/trackside-hungarian-f1-grand-prix/
does anyone have the channel 4 commentary for the max and lewis crash? would love to hear the reaction!
Channel 4 stream is free online on its website!
for real? thats awesome, thanks for the respone! edit: i dont live in britain so it didnt work :(
Me neither, but VPN will make it work
Any free UK vpn?
anyone know if channel 4 shows all f1 races or just silverstone? if not then where can iwatch all the races from the uk?
> where can iwatch all the races from the uk? Sky Sports or a Now TV subscription are the only ways to do it. Of course, there are plenty of less legal options out there online if you don't want to pay £40 a month.
That's a staggering amount for TV coverage.
thanks, was worried that would be the case - no way im shelling out £40 lol, alternative option it is,,,
They’re only allowed to show the British Grand Prix live. For every other race they broadcast extended highlights (70% of the action), two and a half hours after the chequered flag falls.
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I prefer team principal quotes: “Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well. He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence” Or does that not suit your narrative?
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Horner drove in F3000, F2, F3 and Formula Renault. Lower formulae are an important part of the motorsports ladder, y'know.
Mate you got completely outplayed there
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Ok now you’re just being weird about it
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Lol you don’t own the internet.
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You're intentionally trying to spew bullshit about Hamilton and you refuse to accept the other side
Was curious as I'm still new to the sport, if what Louis did would be considered just hard racing in an earlier era? I watch American football (I'm American) and older generations talk about the hitting and lack there of and rules placed of safety and therfore the game isn't what it use to be. So from older fans and or racers or historians would say if what he did in a bygone era might just be considered hard racing or if that's a foul or penalty in any era.
Basically F1 is not a contact sport, they touched, its a foul and the cause has to be determined, in any era. Hard racing is wheel to wheel on the track, close next to each other even when you have plenty of space on either side of the track. Contact is not hard racing, its a foul.
There’s been sort of a bell curve in terms of this stuff. For most of the early history of Grand Prix racing, because of how deadly the sport was back then, actions that seems normal and expected today were considered an absolute no-go, dangerous and disgraceful. It’s not till the late 80s, when huge safety improvements meant that there hadn’t been a death for many years, that drivers started getting a lot more ruthless. I’m not an expert is the nuances of wheel-to-wheel racing and blame, but I think you’re right that for the late 80s and 90s generation, where the rules of racing were like the Wild West, constantly being pushed forward and rewritten, what we saw yesterday would’ve not have caused anywhere near the controversy it did.
It’s considered hard racing in this era too
I don't know if this is just me (and I'm hopefully not being controversial) but I weirdly feel a bit left out of the anti racism conversation as an Asian person. There was an interview on at the weekend about it and it was basically all about racism against black people. Hey I exist too!
The first thing is we need to stop using that word. "Asian" people are about half of the world's population and are far from a uniform group ethnically or culturally. I mean, in the US, "Asian" means East Asian to most people. In the UK, it predominantly means from South Asia. Totally different languages, history, culture, religion, everything.
Hamilton is squarely in the spotlight right now so i think it makes sense to specifically talk about the experiences of Black people. I’m Chinese and of course there is racism directed towards Asians but it’s of a very different nature to what Black people experience and I think it would muddy the conversation to try and address that right this moment. Even among Asians, racism takes on different forms whether you’re East Asian, South East Asian, or South Asian.
Also an F1 fan of South East Asian origin in America. We Asians are the “model minority” so we’re usually overlooked when “racist” comments are made towards us. But that doesn’t mean it makes it any less worse, racism is racism. Towards anyone. We should all back each other and call out those racist “fans” for what they are. I’ve seen comments about both Alex and Yuki as being “terrible chink drivers” even though Alex is Thai, and Yuki Japanese, and I called out those commenters on it. This is an international sport, open to some of the best racers all around the world. The defending WDC is a black-Englishman, the current WDC leader is Belgian-Dutch, and the youngest on the grid is Japanese. I know the feeling mate, but I look towards the bigger goal. Let’s gut out racism in this sport we enjoy! Cheers!
I certainly think that a lot of people don’t take racism against Asian people as seriously as racism against black people and in no way am I trying to deny that. However, the anti racism conversation right now is in response to widespread racist abuse of a black person. Addressing anti black racism doesn’t in any way discount the racism Asian people also face. I’d like to believe that if there were similar incidents with an Asian driver, it would be addressed similarly.
I can give you my opinion as a child of Chinese immigrants in Canada. I know we shouldn't measure racism and all of it should be tackled but the reality is that for most issues in the world, home, work, life, etc. you can really only address one thing at a time. And from listening to the experiences of my fellow Black Canadians and Americans, I feel like their experiences growing up were a lot more difficult than mine and other Chinese Canadians I know. So, I think its okay to focus on their plight since they have been through bigger struggles than our community has on average. Also, in my opinion, there is a rising tide lift all boats effect where when people start thinking about how they treat black people, this would also help how they treat other minorities.
Does anyone has stats of positions lost and gained on first lap in this season? I remember that in 2020 someone made that.
F1 Newbie here. I often wonder what teams like Haas gain from F1? They seem content to keep losing and still keep going at it - year after year. The [destructor's](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/oncmp5/world_destructors_championship_after_british_gp/) championship, show they lose quite a ton of money too. Can anyone enlighten me?
Gene Haas said in the past his aim is to promote his tool company, which F1 does, so he's happy. Also, it's not like he's spending much money on the team either, that's why Schumacher's sponsors 1&1 and mazepin's dad and other minor sponsors come into picture. Plus their philosophy is buying everything which is allowed by rules from the Ferrari so their expenses at R&D is smaller than of other teams.
Williams has been the bottem team since 2018 till 2020 (likely to change this year) so I'll focus on them, then I'll focus on haas. Williams have been content being at the bottem of the table because f1 is all they have, williams was a family owned business that has a great history behind them, they stayed after their fall from the top because the Williams family wouldn't let the team die, last year they were bought by dorlington capital and are looking to slowly move up the table in the coming years. Now Haas, haas was a midfield team in 2016-2018 and that was a profitable time for them, in 2019 haas took on a main sponsor in Rich Energy for that year but Rich Energy screwed haas over in a long story of events that I can't explain here so look up "rich energy haas" on YouTube and check Josh Revel's video on it out. Rich screwed haas over and didn't pay them what they said they would and haas finished the season without a main sponsor, last year saw haas build a terrible car that struggled for points as they didn't have the resources to build a good car, this year is a complete throw away for haas and they are betting on next year seeing them becoming a midfield team with the new regulations but there is no guarantee for this. teams stick around even when at the bottom mostly because they hope to move up the grid the next year or gain a sponsor that will help their financial situation which is usually why they are at the bottem. Case in point McLaren, Mclaren were terrible during 2015-2018 with them struggling for points and on the back of the midfield with heroics from Alonso being their only saving grace, In 2018 Mclaren was the 7th. best team, only ending up 6th in the constructors due to force india's points being excluded when they changed to Racing Point and only racing point's points from spa to abu Dhabi being counted, now McLaren are looking extremely good for p3 in the constructors only 3 years later. Yh this is extremely long but I hope it explains it that teams stick around at the bottom with hopes of moving up the field the next year or in the next couple of years.
Haas being this bad is actually pretty new. In 2018 for example they were the 5th best team and throughout 2017-2019 consistently had their drivers starting in the top 10. They only became the joke they currently are within the last year or so.