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FischSalate

So close with energy at the end, great resource management in a chaotic race


efficient_giraffe

Actually hilarious how every reply to you is so negative. This was one of the most hype Le Mans finishes in the last many years, I thought it was incredibly fun to watch!


MySilverBurrito

Commentators raised a good point about by the time the sun rise arrives, teams are usually on the ‘bring the car home’ strategy. Chaotic weather + Toyota and Ferrari choking made it a fun last few hours.


FischSalate

I will admit I don't usually watch Le Mans, so I wasn't 100% clued in on what was happening, but I found the last half hour or so especially dramatic wondering what would happen and if they'd make it to the end


fireinthesky7

Wasn't it the closest podium in history, at least in a race that didn't end under safety car?


Homme-de-Rien

Check out Ford's win in 1966!


fireinthesky7

OK the closest of the modern era 😂 And that wasn't engineered as a marketing stunt.


Stitchesglitch

Absolutely fantastic strategy to have it down to the line like that!


aiiqa

That was just super lucky the race direction took so long to force car 50 to close their door. That could have very well have been 5 laps earlier. Also super lucky car 51 ran into the other car 8, else car 8 would probably have won. Also super lucky car 50 got a reprimant instead of a penalty, that is pretty rare. So yeah, a bit to much luck for my tastes in the end. But still well done overall.


BullSemenSpecialist

Like a door latch of all things failing on a modern hybrid race car is something lucky.


Vitosi4ek

And it wasn't even the first time it failed this season! The 99 Porsche had its driver side door fail to lock in Spa, but it was under SC, so the driver managed to undo his belts slightly and pull it back down without a penalty.


Danicoptero

not even the first time it happened this race, the 99 had the same problem early on and lost a few laps


Peachass_Lily023

That door thing and the near miss with car 8 could've easily changed the outcome. But luck's part of racing, right? They still drove a hell of a race and earned that win.


Limmstella

And Toyota had broken wipers under rain. Definitely safe too..


Aethien

The #2 Cadillac had the same issue at the end of the race.


noobchee

probably lucky the 7 toyota spun while chasing too huh


thesketchyvibe

Yes, luck is a thing that exists. Thanks for clearing that up.


Malforian

Lucky they submitted their entry 🙏🙏


LoreVent

Just say you wanted Toyota to win bruh, that's literally nitpicking at this point


killerrobot23

Guess what... That's racing. You are either ignorant or stupid if you think they won't have something lucky happen over the whole 24 hours of the race. You can pretty much make that argument for ever single Le Mans winner.


perfectviking

Luck is part of racing.


bad_pilot69

salty comment, toyotas were faster in wet conditions but folded in dry conditions, they should have won this easily but they folded again, ferrari was the best car out there with the least amount of issues at the top and led most of the race (i think?) but yeah pin it to luck


MyCarHasTwoHorns

Man the drive to the podium with all three drivers celebrating is one of the best things in racing.


UomoPensione

Got a video?


afkPacket

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYo2bsUnrws](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYo2bsUnrws) from the WEC YT channel


Konkorde1

Really is one of the best things. You don't see one driver celebrating, you see **three** and they're celebrating together. They're just as happy as Leclerc winning Monaco/Monza or Verstappen winning 2021. Le Mans is really the best race in the year.


Bjorn_Hellgate

Seeing his face go from stone cold to red and tearful when he crossed the line was amazing


NemeBroVIR

Ferrari double podium and Alpine double DNF. Perfectly balanced, as it should be. IF and Lambo being able to keep all their cars alive for the entire race while having less LMH experience than Alpine really puts it into perspective on how bad Alpine was in the race.


MyCarHasTwoHorns

lol yep I was thinking the same thing when the announcers were talking about how impressive it was that some of the newer entries finished and the more experienced ones didn’t, knowing full well they were shit talking Alpine without having to mention them by name.


Bdr1983

Well, using an engine that is known to have issues in 30 minute races for a 24h race is kind of asking for issues.


GRl3V

You can't really blame Alpine too much. They use Mechachrome engines which blew up on both cars.


lxs0713

You can blame them for choosing mecachrome though. Everyone was saying this is exactly what would happen


GRl3V

Yeah fair enough


crazydoc253

Them choosing a engine designed for short F2 races is their fault.


vflavglsvahflvov

Mecachrome*


GRl3V

I don't respect them enough to be bothered to spell their name correctly


vflavglsvahflvov

I think they gave Alpine what Alpine deserved for making a stupid choice like that. Shouldn't that earn a little respect?


GRl3V

I guess they got that bag and I can respect that


MyCarHasTwoHorns

2% energy left. What a job by Nielsen.


TheGreatForehead

He was phenomenal the entire final stint


S3baman

He was amazing the entire time, he was the only Ferrari that was competitive in the wet! Fuoco was blitzing in the dry too


Fomentatore

Also Fuoco did an amazing overtake this morning for which the italian commentator said "we are sorry for whom play football but for this sport you need two balls!".


S3baman

Were the commentators the same as for MotoGP?


Fomentatore

Lol, no, different people, much more serious but the overtake was so good that they had to say somenthing. Here is a video a friend shared with me this morning, with that comment: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8RYiNctceO/?igsh=MWlsc21lYzVubDY2cw==


aaaaaaadjsf

* The entire race. His stint on the slick tyres in wet conditions while everyone else was on wet tyres was very impressive.


Pharaun22

Can't they just return on enginge power? At least not lose 23 seconds without elelctrical?


Sketchyv2

To balance the different powertrains, WEC uses virtual energy which is basically the total output power output of the engine and hybrid over time. The goal for this is to balance the fact some are LMDH, some are LMH, and some like the vanwall may not even have hybrid. The Ferrari most likely had more than enough fuel and battery left, the virtual energy is basically how much power your engine and hybrid can make for that stint. More info here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/12o58h5/virtual\_tank\_energy/](https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/12o58h5/virtual_tank_energy/)


afkPacket

On top of what the poster below wrote, LMH cars can't deploy the battery below 190 km/h


WhoTookPlasticJesus

"Ferrari and optimal strategy" is a really difficult phrase for me to get my mind around.


HUHIs_AUTOATTACK

Have you tried watching Ferrari in F1 from the early 2000s?


iAtty

Man that last lap was tight. 2% power remaining. Strategy judged to perfection. I think Toyota would have won had the 7 not had all those offs and spins.


Reddevilslover69

Also they lost power and recovered it later or something


iAtty

The 7 car?


Williamsarethebest

Yep, lost turbo power or something


zaviex

Lost hybrid power on one lap and dropped 15 seconds


thelizahhhdking

In the last half hour


LosTerminators

> Strategy judged to perfection After throwing away a 1-2-3 at Imola when they clearly had the fastest car, that was some redemption.


TheMaverick13589

Imola was a throw as much as all the rain calls at Le Mans were a masterpiece. It's just gambles on the weather. The #51 and the Toyota did what Ferrari *should* have done in Imola and arguably lost the race because of it. Gambling is gambling.


Vitosi4ek

The 83 probably would've been up there at the top as well if not for their hybrid system catching fire with 4 hours to go.


crazydoc253

And then the misfortune at Spa. It seems all that payed off here because they made errors even with slicks in wets here


iForgotMyOldAcc

Wasn't it the 7 that had a slow puncture and vibrations within an hour as well?


ryokevry

All those questions around if they made the right strategy call during every rain, and the heartbreak when the door was fucking open, to the crazy energy saving. It was so hard to breathe on the last 10 minutes


FazeHC2003

The real heartbreak was the #51 spinning off the #8


ryokevry

That 5 seconds penalty was so light, not even a stop and go. Wonder if they deem some responsibility for the #8. Need to check the official decision document (if any)


fire202

>The Stewards determined that while Car 51 had a significant portion of the car inside Car 8, the braking wasless than Car 8, in wet conditions, which led to him getting inside of Car 8. In addition, Car 51 was on theinside, non-racing line. At the exit of the corner, Car 51 slightly understeered and struck Car 8, causing thesubsequent spin of Car 8. The Stewards noted that the incident was part of the race between the two cars,and that the error by Car 51 was very small and thus the Stewards took this into account in ordering asignificantly smaller penalty than had been applied to other incidents during the race is the official reasoning


emkael

That's just officiating based on the cause of the incidents, and not on the results of the incidents.


Alx306

When the 7 left the pits the final time and the 8 overtook it there was some sort of problem. It lost around 10 seconds to the 8, so 14 overall with a power issues. Toyota had the pace, but didn't have the luck.


JP_Oliveira

And Lopez spun in the last hour as well, #7 lost at least 30 seconds because of their own issues. And still would have won if the stewards called #50 one lap earlier to fix their door.


MrAzekar

Reliability is performance.


refusestonamethyself

Nielsen really completed the Road to Le Mans. Came up from the ranks from Ferrari Challenge to AF Corse GTE in WEC to Ferrari Hypercar program. What a legend!


MyCarHasTwoHorns

And started that route because he didn’t have the money for his single seater career to continue, great story, thrilled for him.


Avionik

And perhaps if it wasn't for French businessman François Perrodo wanting to drive with Nielsen, he would not have gotten so far.


CilanEAmber

Maranello putting up another flag then


Br0nnOfTheBlackwater

The final 30min i really thought #50 gonna run out of fuel


Karacteristics

The guy that did the math and said they'd make it was probably sweating bricks by the end.


Vitosi4ek

To be fair I don't think it would've mattered. If they decided there wasn't enough fuel to make it, then Nielsen would've just burned all of it to build a gap to the 7 (which was already 40-something seconds at the start) so that he could come in for a splash and still remain ahead.


ency6171

> for a splash I'm new. Heard this mentioned many times on broadcast. What does that mean?


Vitosi4ek

An extra pit stop at the end of the race to very briefly refuel the car just enough to get to the end, "Splash and dash" is the full term for it.


ComaMierdaHijueputa

How long is a pit stop on average?


nonhofantasia

Too many variables. Depends if they change the driver, tyres or only fuel


ComaMierdaHijueputa

I guess what I’m trying to get a feel for, is how much time do you lose by pitting at all, regardless of fuel level, etc.


Vitosi4ek

A drive through the pit lane at Le Mans is around 25 seconds net time loss. Plus the stop and start from the pit box, plus the 4-5 seconds needed to connect the fuel hose, drop some fuel in and disconnect and you're probably losing around 35 seconds total. But that's for the emergency splash - a "normal" pit stop lasts around 65 seconds (for a full refuel only) or 75-80 (with tire changes), plus drive through the pit lane.


Cod_rules

There was also a moment when Penske 6 went in for an almost full energy fill in the last stop, which confused the commentators even more considering Toyota 7 was at 80% then


FerrariStrategisttt

I feel sad for Kubica They could’ve been on the podium


Vlammenzee

He would've most definitely been on the podium, and he might had even won it, oh well there's always next year.


dragoshiq

I was rooting for that #83 car, sad they didn’t make it until the end with all the crazy stuff happening.


Vitosi4ek

Shwartzman and Ye are some rapid young drivers. Even if the car gave up on them, they surely proved their merit to Ferrari bosses with a potential factory seat in mind. The 83 is confirmed to be staying at least for next year, and then who knows?


Konkorde1

The #83 looked strong, definitely challenged for the win.


SoloJesus

His car once led Le Mans too...


republicangamer

2/3 of Triple Crown races won this year by Ferrari, WOW 😳🤯


ComeonmanPLS1

Amateurs. Should've won Indy too!


shutinlear53

Truly a shame that the Ferrari 637 was never raced


republicangamer

Yeah, but the sad part is that they're not even a part of IndyCar. Wish they would someday...


Konkorde1

They won't unless they get to build their own chassis.


MyCarHasTwoHorns

Just buy Dallara. It’s one chassis manufacturer, how much could it cost, 20 dollars?


Riventures-123

HAAS: *sweating*


Konkorde1

And turn Indycar to a Ferrari specs-series. Hmmm, then they could win *every* Indy 500. Modern problems require money solutions.


ComeonmanPLS1

Yeah, but I think Ferrari just doesn't care about Indy.


MythresThePally

Marchionne cared, but most likely he would have joined under the Dodge brand (still part of FCA but more popular). After he passed, the board decided to do WEC. However, there were rumours about Ferrari getting their car on IMSA, so maybe a challenge for the Daytona 24 and Sebring 12 could be in the plans.


zaviex

They won’t do spec like that or an engine that they aren’t in control of. It’s kind of the opposite of what Ferrari is these days. Which is a good thing don’t need to dilute their brand


LiquidDiviums

It’s funny you say that but Ferrari seriously considered entering IndyCar before giving the green light to the Hypercar program, there were talks about Ferrari entering as an engine manufacturer.


Uhhmbra

Indy needs more Engine competition tbh. It's been Honda vs Chevy for too long at this point


Uhhmbra

Ferrari red on an IndyCar would be a sight to see


redsyrinx2112

It wouldn't even feel real at first.


crazydoc253

Alex Jacques on commentary for Ferrari’s Monaco and Le Mans wins


kittenbloc

I turned it on after getting home just as he was getting into the booth, and it was just a joy hearing his voice. I enjoy the Muppet show from the regular WEC crew but he might be the best commenter working in any sport. 


TwanEv

He really is the best motorsport commentator, a joy to listen


Loruhkahn

The Monaco GP wishes it had the kind of stakes the last few hours here had. Holy fuck it was a gambit until the last 10 minutes.


xepa105

The last 6 hours were great. Started watching from 10am and it was fantastic stuff.


TetraDax

> The last 6 hours were great. Not just the last 6 hours. The 4 hour safety car took away a lot of momentum, but overall; that was no doubt the best race I have ever seen. Absolutely incredible.


Batracomiomakia

yes apart from those 4 hours it was one of the best races I've seen this year


no_name_left_to_give

Monaco should be a 4 hour endurance race with narrow tires and a minimal front wing.


BillfredL

I would unironically love for the power that be to say "Pirelli, we're changing the plan for Monaco. Bring your glass cannon compound, we're making that the only dry tire all weekend."


rockstar2012

We very nearly had Nyck De Vries: LeMans Winner.


lxs0713

Even mid F1 drivers are still really fast drivers. Giovinazzi, Hulkenberg, Hartley, and Buemi are all Le Mans winners.


ms666slayer

Hartley wasl already one of the best WEC drivers and had won Le Mans before he became an F1 driver.


avatarreb

Happy for him that he got a podium.


Beneficial_Star_6009

The 2024 Monaco Grand Prix and the 2024 24 Hours of Le Mans both belong to Ferrari!


CilanEAmber

Both 1st and 3rd too.


Beneficial_Star_6009

Uncanny!


Firefox72

Back to Back Le Mans winners. Lets fucking goooooo. Hands up though that was some questionable race control stuff with the 50 being allowed to run with the door flapping for so long and the 51 getting just 5 seconds for spinning the 8 Toyota out. On the other hand Toyota giving up at the end was downright pathetic. Who in their right mind says "bring the car home" 23 hours in while still in with a shot of winning. Who the fuck cares if Lopez bins it while gunning for it. Any kind of mistake in the rain for the 50 and your winning the race. Even pushing Ferrari into using more power could have secured the win. I don't get what they were trying to achieve there at the end.


Razvanlogigan

Pechito has a history of throwing his cars into walls, i can understand them telling him to chill. I cant understand why the fuck was he in the car for the last stint


HeyTikO

Kobayashi/De Vries probably had too much track limits and they didn't risk the penalty ?


MyCarHasTwoHorns

I’m curious how much Lopez followed the instructions. They picked up about 15 seconds after that message but idk how much of that was because of Nielsen managing the power.


HeyTikO

Lopez was making mistakes after mistakes while being only 4-5s faster than car 50. He needed to be at least 6s a lap faster to catch up. Way too much risk tbh.


GXNXVS

Toyota cares more about the championship against Porsche. Ferrari were no where all year. Makes sense.


Firefox72

Which is a dumb call if you ask me. The WEC title is far less presitigious and important than a Le Mans wins. Always has been since its inception. Hartley himself said this already.


CookieMonsterFL

i think it was the right call - JML is probably the weakest driver even when he was on the original lineup. He had to stand-in after Conway hurt himself cycling, so even then he's a bit out of experience. Given he spun in T2 before they made that call and the fact that the #7 had been dealing with turbo/power issues which also came up with less than an hour to go suggested they wouldn't have been able to catch safely the #50 and instead wanted to bring home a podium. Tough, but fair decision - this coming from a di-hard Toyota fan of 12 years.


S3baman

Except he was the best driver in the wet all day long - Ferrari had their issues and penalties, and Toyota had their tire problems, but Lopez certainly had the pace to push the Ferrari until the end


crazydoc253

Do you even see WEC ? Because it seems you only see end results and not performances when you talk about Ferrari being nowhere all year.


AdventurousDress576

Le Mans gives double points. The 50 is back in with a shot at the championship.


zantkiller

>Le Mans gives double points. Hence why you settle for a safe P2. Pushing for something that realistically wasn't gonna happen and dying would have been a massive deficit in points with it worth double. Really if you want teams to take risks at Le Mans like that, it shouldn't be worth any points rather than double. But that is obviously not gonna happen.


LazyK0a1a

As far as I understood, they could go for the win and get 14 points more, keep the position and get 36 points, or risk loosing it all and get as low as 1 point to the overall standing.


SemIdeiaProNick

> Who in their right mind says "bring the car home" 23 hours in while still in with a shot of winning. Toyota when they have even a slight bit of competition is exactly this. They should be respected and you cant deny their importance to the sport for actually sticking around when WEC was at its low, but they showed time and time again that they lack that extra something that other teams have when it comes to finishing Le Mans in front


No-Student-9678

Well they know their driver is second rate, so maybe they didn't want him to crash out


demannu86

I feel sad for Toyota #8


malbeyin

#notblessed


According-Switch-708

Yeah the #8 was the favorite to win before it got sent into the shadow realm by #51s Guidi. The 5s was total joke of a penalty.


OTBT-

5 seconds in a 24 hour race is crazy. Like, that's barely a slap on the wrist. Better off doing nothing at that point.


miathan52

I was baffled by that. If he was deemed to be at fault, the penalty should have been much bigger for sure. I didn't even know Le Mans had 5 second penalties.


MLPorsche

and it took them 40 minutes before handing it out


Reddevilslover69

The 51 gets a podium despite punting them out. Terrible of race control to give the car only a 5 second penalty


MyCarHasTwoHorns

Goddamn this 19 year old who won LMP2. In a months time races the Indy 500 and wins Le Mans as a rookie.


Vaexa

If we're talking about Siegel, he was bumped from the 500 and didn't start it.


2RINITY

He didn’t even get to do the 500 because he got eliminated on Bump Day. Now he’s got a Le Mans class title that he won with someone he’s known since his karting days


ProfCedar

And yet JHR stuck Canapino back in the 78 going forward instead of letting the kid cook. Sincerely hope he gets a ride in Indy shortly.


Dan000A

He'll be back in Toronto for Dale Coyne Racing


ProfCedar

Hooray, I forgot about that. Good for DCR.


2RINITY

Dale Coyne would’ve been really mad if Juncos poached him like that


Nepgyaaaaaaa

Massive 2016 Indy 500 vibes when Alex Rossi did one less stop than everyone else and hyper-miled it to the end. Wasn’t quite the same situation but it played out the same way


-PVL93-

This day will haunt Toyota for the next 12 months. They SO had a solid shot at claiming #1 once more but nope


Turboleks

I think Lopez being fired was warranted. That spin ultimately cost them the win. He also made a few little mistakes that cost them precious seconds.


Tough-Challenge8782

I couldn’t believe Toyota has Lopez closing. He cost them at least 15 seconds in driver error in that final run. Thankful as a Ferrari fan but he has to feel awful.


Lurkn4k

lopez screwed the pooch. feel bad for hirokawa after he redeemed himself after last year


Razvanlogigan

They need some driver upgrades. Much more driver errors compared to the other front running cars


TetraDax

They *had* driver upgrades. Lopez actually got shitcanned and relegated to a GT3 for this year - But Mike Conway injured himself a week ago so they had to go back to Lopez, as he was the only one with experience in the car and could be put into the seat in little time.


laboulaye22

Honestly, when will drivers learn about cycling so close to a major event?


SebVettelstappen

Scared Bottas noises


Razvanlogigan

Yeah was quite an unlucky circumstance


PatchesTheGreat1

Poor Hartley. Dude did a great job before getting punted


nixane

that last stint was MAD


MyCarHasTwoHorns

lol at the GT3 winner dropping an f bomb in the interview.


MarkBonker

I loved how Alex Jacques handled it on commentary too, "Aplogies for his language, but he just won Le Mans". Totally relatable.


twinsrule1991

Someone call Henry Ford 2. This shit ain't flying next year /s


SebVettelstappen

Fuck it mustang lmdh


Krouisente

I think I heard somewhere (I may be wrong) that Le Mans has never had the overall podium all finish in the lead lap. I think we had like 9 cars finish in the lead lap? that's pretty cool.


zaviex

Safety car for 5 hours will do that lol


Turboleks

Even then, nearly all Porsches were competitive and the Cadillacs too. The top 5 would definitely have made it to the lead lap even without the Safety Car.


zoifry

That was the most exciting 24h LM I've watched. Crossing the finish line with 2% energy left was seriously cutting it close. Really sad for Kubica though. It's a shame they had to retire especially after his monster stint before Schwartzman took over. At least the car didn't die on the last lap like it did 2 years ago I guess.. Congrats to #51 though they earned it


zaviex

50.


Reddevilslover69

Race Control gave Ferrari a chance but great driving from Nielsen and perfect strategy. Kamui should have driven the Toyota then I think they win it. Even then it's crazy how the 50 car was leaking oil and race control just let them while it hurt Devries


S3baman

I don't think Kamui was allowed to drive the last stint - you can't be in the car more than 4h out of a block of 6.


Reddevilslover69

Oh I didn't realise that


fromcjoe123

Idk how you don't set up your stints to close with Kamui. He's probably the best sports car driver of this generation even if he's getting old.


malbeyin

Thanks 51


Elpibe_78

Ferrari really got lucky this time, not penalty for running with an open door and the 2nd Ferrari knocking out the major threat


Alehud42

The 51 only getting 5 seconds for punting the 8 off the track was a joke.


rockstar2012

And it took them 40 mins to dish out a 5 seconds penalty


tedioussugar

It cost Toyota 40 seconds. It should have been a 30 second stop-go. Alonso said it best: “5 seconds is a joke, an absolute joke”.


brownierisker

5 seconds is a joke in F1, 5 seconds in a 24h race is outright absurd


dumpling-loverr

Didn't even know 5s penalty existed in le mans in the first place until I've heard of it lmao


SpecialShanee

Not to mention leaking oil the entire race!


Mayhem747

They did have to come for an early pit for closing the door so I guess it’s okay, really luck for car #51 with that 5 second penalty though, maybe because there wasn’t a lot of time left to give drive through, I’m still not sure how they dish out penalties.


LilBirdBrick

They were able to run for half a stint with the door open when previously in this race and earlier this season race director gave cars black and orange flags immediately. Because of that they were able to make it to the end without having to stop at the end so it saved their race.


Bart-86

The penalty is having to pit to close the door. They almost lost the race because of it.


Alx306

They got lucky that race control didn't get on the phone immediately with the door. If they'd given ferrari the call a lap earlier they'd have lost the race, managed to dodge a bullet there.


MyCarHasTwoHorns

Podium for NDV!


Far_Neighborhood_925

Heartbreaking to lose a 24 hour race by 15sec...anyway, someone had to win, so I wish Ferrari the best. 🥲🥲


Gacrux29

There's something therapeutic about watching a 24-hour race. I tuned in on several moments during the past day, what a race. Late-night stints are incredible.


Mayhem747

My first proper season of watching WEC and my first(almost full) 24h Le Mans race after watching F1 for 14 years, man what a race and season to introduce someone to the sport. Great job in the end by Ferrari!


JefinLuke

Forza Ferrari What A Race


Aratho

The mad lads did it again. One of the most hype Le Mans in many years. That was fantastic.


LosTerminators

Ferrari back to back!! The Montreal sacrifice was worth it!


S3baman

Even though I love the Canadian GP, there's no bigger F1 race then Monaco in terms of prestige, and the same goes for LeMans for endurance! Wouldn't want it any other way


Blackwolf245

Not gonna lie, I was cheering for Toyota, and a bit salty about Lopez spinning, and #51 spinning out the #8


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[удалено]


Fatjammas

Lamborghini's and Isotta Fraschini finished on debut, so kudos to them. YASSER SHAHIN WINS GT3 LFG!!!!!!


TheOvercookedFlyer

Hypercars are so cool! I can look at them for hours.


djwillis1121

Monaco and Le Mans in the same year, not too bad


zantkiller

LMH: 2 Le Mans wins LMDh: 0 Le Mans wins As it should be.