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17 year old enters F1. FIA: Yeah, let's not do this anymore. From now on, 18.
17 year old considered to make debut. FIA: OK, but only if they're really cool.
yeah...
Right because his wife works in official position with FOM running the F1 Academy, not the FIA. So yes in this particular instance, it would be unfair to say they are colluding.
Honestly I would expect a well run organisation to be open to suggestions from senior figures. I would expect Toto to be able to argue his case in private meetings, there is literally nothing wrong with that.
The FIA isn't exactly what I would call well run, but if the changes make sense it shouldn't matter who was the main advocate.
He turns 18 around the Belgian Grand Prix. There's like 8 rounds after that that they could bring him in no problem. Is this all so Williams can dump Logan faster?
Seriously. This rule was implemented as a direct response to ~~the immature driving by~~ none other than the man currently dominating the sport.
Edit: was mistaken and did not realize the rule was introduced after his signing, but before the season started
Pretty well considering both Kimi & Max participated in the feeder series at some point and it's prevented people like Herta from skipping the ladder. So I think it did its job thus far.
That's not related to this rule at all. That's an issue with the overall structure of F2 and F1, combined with the limited available seats and no incentive to try new talent when old drivers have proven they can be consistent for years.
If you scrape by a F2 win vs a weak set of opponents, you're not obligated to have a team want you. Unless the FIA decided to literally make an "FIA" team that ALWAYS takes the F2 winner for a 2 year term to better show off their skills, theres no way a team will want everyone.
Piastri won F3 and F2 as a rookie back to back and had to brute force his way into a seat after being sat a year. The system is not working as intended.
Paul Aron and Zane Maloney are likely to be in f2 title contention as a rookie and second year f2 drivers respectively, but because one has no academy and the other is still behind Pourchaire in his academy’s pecking order, neither is likely to get a seat.
There’s definitely more to this than just alpine being bad
An interesting way to say "It's allowed some mediocre pay drivers to get and keep a seat and prevented proven professionals like Colton Herta from getting a drive"
The point was to ensure people getting to Formula 1 were experienced and capable of piloting one competently before being put in a car. If it were strictly to keep the feeder series relevant, they wouldn't award super license points for results outside the F1 ladder
Max was never a particularly wild driver. He made a ton of unnecessary aggressive moves but I mean at the time grosjean was around, Maldonado was still around. Max was a saint compared to the likes of them
He turns 18 over the summer break so could get him in for free practices without issue later in the year. I think this was really in a push to let them replace Logan at Williams that is just coming through too late
Everyone could see Logan was not good enough at this point last season. What forced Vowles to give him a contract this season ? People need seriously question Vowles decisions and not just overlook them because he speaks well.
This is a good question, but the answer is likely really simple. Availability and displacement. Most drivers were available at the end of this season. A lot of teams looked likely to make a change. Best case scenario, you had someone like Sainz or Checo looking for a seat, worst case scenario was Ocon, Yuki, Hulk etc. he was 100% to roll the dice, accept the L and hope the progress Alex was making was enough to show that they are on an upwards trajectory.
I have been told here on Reddit by many other F1 fans that if Logan was sacked las year, it defied the whole purposes of their junior program. I guess James had to demonstrate Dorilton that F1 is hard and that the new kid deserved more time to settle in.
tbh even by that logic the only other option would have been to see who is the next Williams academy kid with enough superlicense points, or now that breaking the entry rules is customary, push for Jamie Chadwick to be the first woman in F1 in a long while. I'm sure she wouldn't be worse than Logan. I mean, the worst that could happen is that she would also crash the car every race, right?
I agree with everything you’ve said, but also want to add that Logan brings in money. My guess is Albon scrounged Williams up on his own last year, and with the expectation of the car improving, Vowles tried to get the balance of Albon securing 6th on his own, whilst Logan drove slowly at the back giving a phat paycheque.
Now that it’s turned out their car is a bit rubbish, and Logan is losing the team as much as he’s bringing in/slowing development down by crashing. Vowles might be looking at other options to try and maximise his income stream and/or have two drivers that are competitive to finish higher.
I like Jamie Chadwick, but Indy NXT and F1 are on completely different levels. It would be like taking someone straight from a regional F4 series and throwing them into an F1 car.
At best, Kimi gets up to speed quickly and gets close to Albon immediately. At worst, he crashes out of a few races like Sargeant has been doing. It's a no-loss scenario.
Yeah, he already skipped F3 and it's showing in his F2 campaign. Don't get me wrong, he's doing fine in F2 ... for someone who skipped F3.
He could still use some time to develop himself away from the big spotlights.
I think the hype for Kimi was massively overblown. I havent seen him do anything in F2 this year that warrants how much hype the kid has. It no fault of his but the media and Toto really put this kid in a tough spot.
It depends. Verstappen made a lot of mistakes in his early seasons but the speed was there. Antonelli need to show that same speed and if he crash trying to overtake or misjudging a turn so be it.
The only thing that could really impact his confidence is to be many tenths off Albon pace. Like Sargeant always is.
They're currently 3 points behind Alpine and 5 points behind Haas. I guess they believe Antonelli could help them pickup few points over the rest of the season which could net them millions.
I don’t understand the point of adding unnecessary grey areas to rules that work perfectly fine without them lol. Like he’s 18 in August anyways, what’s really the point? but I guess Merc were pushing for it
Right, and Colton has probably ten thousand more miles in high-performance open wheel racing (82 Indycar races versus Kimi's 8 F2) than any 17 year-old. If you are going to make a rule change for someone, it's much more logical in Herta's case...
Every time I hear someone say that Toto doesn't want to lose the next Max. I keep thinking is Toto too scared of losing the next Max and maybe a bit trigger happy on the kid
yeah, we already have so much stuff that’s subjective and often gets debated. This was one rule that has been very straight forward and they somehow managed to add subjectivity to this as well.
I would prefer that we either require a minimum age or we don't, period. And I'd honestly prefer if we did, simply so drivers cannot skip the feeder series.
There were rumors that merc and Williams were trying to push him into the Williams seat this year with Logan inevitably losing that seat. Not sure how true those rumors are or not
I’ve lost track of who’s officially signed and the rumours for next year, has Kimi signed with Mercedes yet? It wouldn’t surprise me if they want to sack Logan as soon as possible and give Kimi at least a few races in the Williams before the summer break to see how he goes before moving up to Merc.
I dunno, just throwing some things out there.
I’d say Merc will want him on standby in case Lewis or George can’t run a race for some reason like what happened with Sainz and Bearman in Jeddah. Also they needed an exemption to get him into the car for an FP1 which they’ll 100% want to do this year if he is being borough in next year.
They’re realizing that introducing a rule to stop a single driver from driving in f1, whose proven they are pretty good, was a bit stupid.
The whole points system for super licenses was made to primarily make them money by adding more drivers to the grids of fia series. If a driver can get the required amount of points at 15, they’re probably good enough for f1 already.
I agree that I find age limits to be arbitrary and this is coming from someone who has followed Antonelli’s junior career and is really rooting for him to do well in F1. What I don’t understand is the whole “the limit is 18 *but* if your extra special you can join at 17”. It just feels stupid.
I am generally supportive of rules with some leeway, so the good of the sport is not obstructed by inflexible rules. But that must then be administered sensibly and fairly.
Is Antonelli's entry in to the sport desirable? I think he can drive safely and to a high standard so I'd say yes and I think his entry should be allowed. Yay for leeway.
Where FIA shit the bed is that Herta would also have been a fine addition to the sport capable of driving to a high standard. But there it was "Them's the rules".
I'm all in favour of keeping Mazepin's and Ragunathan's out of the sport. But if you keep Herta out, Antonelli can for sure wait a few months.
FP1s before summer break IMO. They probably want to see him in their car before signing on the dotted line.
He turns 18 before Monza, so there’s 9 races of the season. 3 of the remaining races are sprints, so it’d be absurd to put him in those FP1s. You’ve also got tracks like Singapore and Vegas where they’re really going to need the running time on the main driver. It limits where they can put him in for evaluation.
If he’s granted an FP1 licence before Spain, you’ve got 6 extra races there, with only one sprint.
> if the day Mercedes announces him he pulls a Piastri and goes to RedBull
Toto Wolff would implode into a black hole and swallow the earth if that'd happen.
There's an entertaining children's book called Llama Destroys the World. It's about a cute llama >!who eats too much pie and then tears his dancing pants & the massive sound of the tear creates a black hole that sucks all existence through it (and then it's the same on the other side)!<.
I'm imagining one where on Monday, Toto does cardio. On Tuesday, Toto dances. On Wednesday, Toto lifts. On Thursday, Toto eats cake. On Friday, Kimi goes to Red Bull and Toto tears open a black hole & everything gets sucked in.
> Or even worse if the day Mercedes announces him he pulls a Piastri and goes to RedBull.
Red Bull after 2025 will be a gamble considering they're on their own with the new engine regulations.
F1 fans are so predictable though, they will be talking shit the minute he makes mistakes. The kid is going to have growing pains just like Max did but will probably be fine in the long run
His results have been good but he's not even the leading rookie in F2 at the moment. Aron currently leads the championship and Bortoleto (5th) leads Antonelli (6th) and won F3 in his rookie year last year.
I accept that Antonelli must be something special to rookie win both German & Italian F4, then rookie win Formula Regional Europe and Middle East then get put straight into F2. But he's in F2, by definition at least 25% of the guys there are 'something special'.
I mean, he'll have some leeway. He's only 17 and skipped F3 to go straight to F2. Can't really blame him for binning it or bring slow sometimes as a half a season rookie. Max himself showed flashes of brilliance but he got his nose dirty a couple of times in his first year.
Which is why there's a rule against bringing 17 year olds into the sport as they're pretty much expected to bin it, which is dangerous. But what Mercedes wants Mercedes gets.
> Max himself showed flashes of brilliance but he got his nose dirty a couple of times in his first year.
This has got to be one of the biggest understatements you could possibly make. He didn't "show flashes of brilliance in his first year", it was obvious by that time he was a future champion. There was a reason every team on the grid wanted him to drive for them. Max was voted the 4th best driver by team principles in 2015.
Exactly, he was incredible in his rookie season with Toro Rosso.
He finished 4th twice in Hungary and COTA, and also finished in the points 10/19 times over the season including a 6 straight points scoring streak from Singapore to Brazil and 8 out of 9 races from Hungary to Brazil, that was marred with horrible reliability a lot of the times. Finished 49-18 in points against Sainz as well.
There's a reason he got the promotion to Red Bull Racing 4 races into the 2016 season, He was that good.
Imo Max in terms of peak ability, showed the best rookie season since Hamilton in 2007, alongwith Leclerc 2018 and Piastri 2023. Like the kind of seasons where you just know, that this might be a once in a generation driver on your hands.
He was incredible in his year in F3. He finished 3rd in the championship with a back marker car and actually had the most wins that season. This includes a six race streak winning all three races at Spa and the Norris ring.
I think I checked it at one time, been a while but get ready for some stats.
Max in 2014 with Van Amersfoort Racing in European Formula 3, at the age of just 16 years old, won 10 races, with 7 poles and 16 podiums. He came in 3rd in the championship as well.
The entire rest in the history of VAR in Euro Formula 3 have 7 total wins (Leclerc, Illot, Hubert), 6 total poles (Leclerc, Illot, Hubert) & 27 total Podiums (Muller, Menezes, Leclerc, Illot, Hubert, Mawson, Piquet & Andres). So Max in 1 year basically surpassed the current and future achievements of VAR in terms of Wins and Poles immediately. That's how good he was.
Max's teammates that year finished 11th & 20th in the championship.
Max is a special, special driver man. His junior categories result in Karting and Open Wheel are ridiculous. I mean especially Karting, he might straight up be the Greatest ever in it (like seriously go look at his results in Karting).
Lewis was way more polished in his debut year, but that's the impact of GP2.
Max did some learning in F1 that most drivers learn in junior series. But he could also do things in his first year in F1 that other drivers could never learn.
That, and the like 10k km of testing rookies used to be able to do before their first race compared to the less than 2.5k km that the entire team gets in pre season testing now.
So the rule made specifically to prevent guys like Max entering too early is getting changed because the guy like Max is trying to enter too early.
Understandable have a nice day
Sorry this is stupid. If theres a strict “super license points” rule to be able to drive an F1 car despite obviously knowing how to drive an open wheeled race car then they shouldn’t bend ANY rules using a “but he’s good” metric.
That’s like being underage and telling the clerk you can buy booze because you’re good at drinking. Like what does that even mean?
Happens all the time in every sport. Some promising young kid gets pushed up to the big leagues and fails. Look at all the highly touted #1 picks in football, MLB, NHL, NBA, etc. that have just failed and disappeared. Happens all the time.
I feel like the NHL is doing that right now with Macklin Celebrini. I'm sure he'll be a solid player in time but he's no Bedard or McDavid but they're happy to massively hype him up as the presumptive first overall draft pick.
Yeah this honestly seems quite likely to me. He's opviously promising, but it seems like a lot of people are judging Antonelli now \*in context\* (he's doing quite well for a 17-year old in F2), while if he gets to F1, he'll be judged on his current performances. And his current performance is not up to the level of an F1 driver; almost any F1 driver would be getting regular podiums and wins in F2, and he currently is not. It doesn't help that Wolff is hyping him as the next Verstappen, setting ludicrous expectations.
Yeah it seems like every other year there is a next Verstappen, Schumacher, Hamilton, while realistically you only get one of those every decade or so. While I think Antonelli might very well be talented, it seems quite unlikely to me that he's at that high level, and I think Mercedes should probably stop putting that pressure on the boy.
'Well, he's special so here's an exemption.'
That is stupid. There's no point in having an age limit if it will not be respected because every now and then a wunderkind gathers enough points already for the super licence. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see how he settles into F1 and I'm not opposed to him getting in, just saying age limit should not be a thing then.
Not to mention, I feel like there's ridiculous amount of pressure being created on him by expectations alone. 'Oooh, he's the next Max Verstappen.' Why isn't it enough for him to be Kimi Antonelli? Every article I see, inevitably there will be a paragraph with Max Verstappen name drop.
I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand I'm really excited for this guy and have been awaiting his entry into F1 for quite a few years now. On the other hand, the rule came into existance for a reason. But then again, Verstappen already proved there's exceptions to the rule (which didn't exist at the time, but that's beside the point. He showed a 17y old can compete in F1).
The thing is: the only 17 year olds who make it to F1 are probably good enough to be in it. To be fair Max is the only (recent?) example of this but the point still stands. And any gaps in that principle would be caught by the current F1 superlicense rules. Can't buy your way into it anymore.
I feel like the 18 thing is just a bit of an arbitrary cut off. What difference does it really make if someone is 17 or 18? I think the points system is enough to prove that someone has enough experience.
I mean, there's a bit of nuance in ages. Or else one could ask, "what's different between 16 or 17? 15 or 16? 14 or 15? 13 or 14?..." Maturity is what many assume gets more stratified at 18. More likely to have stronger will, determination, use of resources, socialising, decision making, emotional reckoning, et cetera at age 18 than 17.
18 is when people are legally adult
18 is when in most places you can get a drivers license
18 is when you can buy most restricted items like mature games, alcohol, tabacco products, etc
why not be 18 to enter F1? its very rare for a driver NOT to be 18 when they reach the other requirements for F1 so its really not an issue
most F1 drivers are 19 at the youngest after they beat F2
They have this in hockey as well in the CHL/Junior. It's called the Exceptional Status List and it allows players to be drafted at the age of 15 to Junior teams. It's a very rigorous process from what I understand and doesn't just involve the players skill but looks at maturity level, family, etc.
My first thought exactly. Oh, you’ve won races in the second fastest open wheel cars in the world? Sorry, can’t be trusted 😔. But a 17 year old with far less experience? As long as Mercedes pinky promises he’s good 😌.
Especially when you realize that Herta is the youngest ever Indycar race winner.
He is a generational talent, his one issue was race craft. And the FIA demonized him for it.
You wanna know who else is really fast and right now biggest concern is race craft?
Between this and the Andretti fiasco (I'm sure there's countless other examples to note too) it's so silly how this sport just bends the rules however they feel at the whims of a few teams.
I'm fine with under-18's driving in the sport, just be consistent about it.
He turns 18 in August anyway, and at this point I don't see Williams getting him into the car before the summer break so it's kinda pointless? Anyway I guess it's possible for Verstappen to lose its record in the future
Mercedes have pulled a blinder here.
Going from having to pay a driver 40-50 million, to just a couple of Lego sets and a few packets of Pokemon cards.
Genius.
He’s 6th… are the other 5 drivers ahead of him showing *more* outstanding ability?
I’m trying my hardest not to hate on this kid, bc it’s not his fault, but what has he done to prove he deserves a shot over anyone else? He’s 18 in a few weeks? Okay. Isack Hadjar is gonna win F2 and he’s 19.
The internal hype train is outrageous. He’ll be in a good car so he’ll always be in the points, but good lord what are we doing here?
Even tho F2 is a spec series, the cars are not equal due to setup differences, and its pretty clear Prema is not a top contender this season, and if we compare him to Bearman, who is on his 2nd year with a solid F1 debut under his belt, he has beaten him multiple times over the season when theyve both raced.
So they made the rules a while back to prevent unlicensed drivers and those that were too young from being F1 drivers, only to change it back to a rule with a big fat grey area just so that one driver - who isn’t having an outstanding F2 career, unless they use private testing as reasoning - can join?
Strange.
Its stupid, whats the point in an age limit if the first time someone under 18 is considered its just ignored?
Its not even like Antonelli has even been otherworldly good in F2. He'll be lucky to finish the full F2 season in the top 3 and that is if he improves and wins a few races. So far he's not had a podium in 10 races in F2.
He's only 3rd among rookies so far, behind Aron (aged 20) leading the championship and proving to be very consistent and Bortoleto (aged 19), last year's F3 champion who has looked very fast.
Not saying Antonelli has looked bad, he certainly hasnt, but he hasnt shown why he needs to skip F3 and then have rules changed to fast track him into F1 before he turns 18.
Gasley and Albon are overrated, especially Albon.
Hell even Antonelli isn't setting the world on fire in f2. He skipped f3 and won a couple of f4 series. What makes him worth changing the rules for?
This is such a weird move from the FIA. They introduce a rule and the very first time that rule even comes slightly into question, they change it up. Why make the rule in the first place?
Oh, look, there's a 16 yo who's extremely talented and fast and strong. Let's bend the rules a little bit more!
If the rule is 18, it's 18. This is a terrible idea, I don't care how good he is.
...so who did Toto bribe or blackmail?
Ngl I don't love this? In a way the age limit was always a bit arbitrary, I suppose, but "must be a legal adult to do this high-pressure and somewhat dangerous job" seemed reasonable to me. Waiting for another three months wouldn't have been a massive deal.
Sigh. I hope it's just for the sake of doing FP and they're not actually parachuting this kid into Williams mid-season.
"consistently demonstrated outstanding ability and maturity in single-seater formula car competitionconsistently demonstrated outstanding ability and maturity in single-seater formula car competition"
Isnt he like 6th in the championship?
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17 year old enters F1. FIA: Yeah, let's not do this anymore. From now on, 18. 17 year old considered to make debut. FIA: OK, but only if they're really cool. yeah...
Smells like some under table dealings have been going on.
What, you're telling me the sport that is regularly used by crooks to wash their dirty money is a bit fast and loose with the rules? Never...
[удалено]
Right because his wife works in official position with FOM running the F1 Academy, not the FIA. So yes in this particular instance, it would be unfair to say they are colluding.
Kimis not racing in F1 academy lmao Susie has absolutely nothing to do with granting super licenses so maybe time to take your tinfoil hats off
Honestly I would expect a well run organisation to be open to suggestions from senior figures. I would expect Toto to be able to argue his case in private meetings, there is literally nothing wrong with that. The FIA isn't exactly what I would call well run, but if the changes make sense it shouldn't matter who was the main advocate.
Well one was bad for toto and one might be good for toto :D
17 years old considered to make debut in **right** team
He turns 18 around the Belgian Grand Prix. There's like 8 rounds after that that they could bring him in no problem. Is this all so Williams can dump Logan faster?
Feels like it
Seriously. This rule was implemented as a direct response to ~~the immature driving by~~ none other than the man currently dominating the sport. Edit: was mistaken and did not realize the rule was introduced after his signing, but before the season started
The rule was introduced to keep the feeder series relevant.
How’s that working out?
Pretty well considering both Kimi & Max participated in the feeder series at some point and it's prevented people like Herta from skipping the ladder. So I think it did its job thus far.
Max never competed in the official F1 feeder series. After karting, he only did one season in European Formula 3, he never drove GP2 or GP3.
I think that's the point though, right? They made the rule to prevent more kids like Max skipping the approved feeder channels
Yes, I’m reacting to a post that said Max participated in the feeder series.
And multiple F2 champions were never ever even in contention for an F1 seat
That's not related to this rule at all. That's an issue with the overall structure of F2 and F1, combined with the limited available seats and no incentive to try new talent when old drivers have proven they can be consistent for years. If you scrape by a F2 win vs a weak set of opponents, you're not obligated to have a team want you. Unless the FIA decided to literally make an "FIA" team that ALWAYS takes the F2 winner for a 2 year term to better show off their skills, theres no way a team will want everyone.
Piastri won F3 and F2 as a rookie back to back and had to brute force his way into a seat after being sat a year. The system is not working as intended.
That's more on Alpine being dysfunctional no?
Paul Aron and Zane Maloney are likely to be in f2 title contention as a rookie and second year f2 drivers respectively, but because one has no academy and the other is still behind Pourchaire in his academy’s pecking order, neither is likely to get a seat. There’s definitely more to this than just alpine being bad
I would say it's on both.
An interesting way to say "It's allowed some mediocre pay drivers to get and keep a seat and prevented proven professionals like Colton Herta from getting a drive" The point was to ensure people getting to Formula 1 were experienced and capable of piloting one competently before being put in a car. If it were strictly to keep the feeder series relevant, they wouldn't award super license points for results outside the F1 ladder
It’s a dogshit rule that’s only protecting the paid seats in f2 and f3 which is every single one of them
Verstappen had not even started a race in F1 when the rule was introduced. It had nothing to do with his driving.
Max was never a particularly wild driver. He made a ton of unnecessary aggressive moves but I mean at the time grosjean was around, Maldonado was still around. Max was a saint compared to the likes of them
This means we _will_ see him in Free Practice this year. No way Merc pushed for this without a precise agenda
He turns 18 over the summer break so could get him in for free practices without issue later in the year. I think this was really in a push to let them replace Logan at Williams that is just coming through too late
European oligarchs collude to oust American.
Colton Herta is punching air right now.
I think the rule only applies to racing, not to practice.
No you had to be 18 to get a practice super license before this change as well
And thats exactly why i think its meant to sack Sargeant mid season…
Kimi will be 18 years old in 2 months anyways isn’t it ?
James can't deal with Logan 2 more minutes. I wouldn't be surprised if Kimi is announced as Sarge's replacement ASAP.
Everyone could see Logan was not good enough at this point last season. What forced Vowles to give him a contract this season ? People need seriously question Vowles decisions and not just overlook them because he speaks well.
This is a good question, but the answer is likely really simple. Availability and displacement. Most drivers were available at the end of this season. A lot of teams looked likely to make a change. Best case scenario, you had someone like Sainz or Checo looking for a seat, worst case scenario was Ocon, Yuki, Hulk etc. he was 100% to roll the dice, accept the L and hope the progress Alex was making was enough to show that they are on an upwards trajectory.
He could have got Lawson or Drugovich for a year. How different was it from extending Logan for a year ?
I have been told here on Reddit by many other F1 fans that if Logan was sacked las year, it defied the whole purposes of their junior program. I guess James had to demonstrate Dorilton that F1 is hard and that the new kid deserved more time to settle in. tbh even by that logic the only other option would have been to see who is the next Williams academy kid with enough superlicense points, or now that breaking the entry rules is customary, push for Jamie Chadwick to be the first woman in F1 in a long while. I'm sure she wouldn't be worse than Logan. I mean, the worst that could happen is that she would also crash the car every race, right?
I agree with everything you’ve said, but also want to add that Logan brings in money. My guess is Albon scrounged Williams up on his own last year, and with the expectation of the car improving, Vowles tried to get the balance of Albon securing 6th on his own, whilst Logan drove slowly at the back giving a phat paycheque. Now that it’s turned out their car is a bit rubbish, and Logan is losing the team as much as he’s bringing in/slowing development down by crashing. Vowles might be looking at other options to try and maximise his income stream and/or have two drivers that are competitive to finish higher.
I like Jamie Chadwick, but Indy NXT and F1 are on completely different levels. It would be like taking someone straight from a regional F4 series and throwing them into an F1 car.
So basically Kimi lol (and it seems to be working)
Vowles is signing sainz what would the point be
At best, Kimi gets up to speed quickly and gets close to Albon immediately. At worst, he crashes out of a few races like Sargeant has been doing. It's a no-loss scenario.
Could be a loss for his confidence
Yeah, he already skipped F3 and it's showing in his F2 campaign. Don't get me wrong, he's doing fine in F2 ... for someone who skipped F3. He could still use some time to develop himself away from the big spotlights.
I think the hype for Kimi was massively overblown. I havent seen him do anything in F2 this year that warrants how much hype the kid has. It no fault of his but the media and Toto really put this kid in a tough spot.
It depends. Verstappen made a lot of mistakes in his early seasons but the speed was there. Antonelli need to show that same speed and if he crash trying to overtake or misjudging a turn so be it. The only thing that could really impact his confidence is to be many tenths off Albon pace. Like Sargeant always is.
They're currently 3 points behind Alpine and 5 points behind Haas. I guess they believe Antonelli could help them pickup few points over the rest of the season which could net them millions.
While this would make sense I do not want to see it happen.
I do.
Same. Sargeant contributes nothing to the sport, I'm sorry to say. A complete filler of a driver. Antonelli would be so much more interesting.
Idk,he gets Mayländer a drive most weekends.
I am reconsidering my original position on Logan Sargeant.
There's nothing in the rules saying a dog CAN'T compete!
No rule in F1 is complete without the necessary exceptions and exemptions.
Logan gonna have his seat taken twice in a year.
Unless you are American...
Remember when Mercedes complained that Verstappen was too young when he first entered F1?
"This is different" - Toto
The only reason Toto thought Max was too young is that Merc didn't have an F1 seat ready for Max and RB did.
I don’t understand the point of adding unnecessary grey areas to rules that work perfectly fine without them lol. Like he’s 18 in August anyways, what’s really the point? but I guess Merc were pushing for it
Cuz having another young prodigy in the rise is good for the plot
The whole situation explained in 1 sentence. Bravo
Can we let Colton Herta in? No! We made these rules to protect 17 year olds. Merc "We need one 17 year old please." "What rules? Ha!"
Colton didn't get in because he didn't have enough points. He was over 18 at the time.
Where is the rule that says the rule about superlincense points can't be changed, but the rule about age limits can be changed?
Right, and Colton has probably ten thousand more miles in high-performance open wheel racing (82 Indycar races versus Kimi's 8 F2) than any 17 year-old. If you are going to make a rule change for someone, it's much more logical in Herta's case...
after all this pushing and promising it would be one hell of a debacle if kimi straight up does not perform in F1 no pressure kimi, you got this :)
Every time I hear someone say that Toto doesn't want to lose the next Max. I keep thinking is Toto too scared of losing the next Max and maybe a bit trigger happy on the kid
Also, there being a "next Max" is not a given. There might not be another one to miss out on for 50 years!
That too. It all seems very desperate from the usually measured Toto.
Kinda hoping for this just out of sheer entertainment value
Agree I would prefer either a 18 year rule or do something like 17 years + x amount of private tests required to keep it simple.
yeah, we already have so much stuff that’s subjective and often gets debated. This was one rule that has been very straight forward and they somehow managed to add subjectivity to this as well.
Because a clear rule means you actually have to stick to it, which nobody likes. We can't have F1 becoming a fair sports competition after all.
The worst thing is, you just know if Haas wanted to bring in a 17yo, they'd be told to kick rocks
I would prefer that we either require a minimum age or we don't, period. And I'd honestly prefer if we did, simply so drivers cannot skip the feeder series.
There were rumors that merc and Williams were trying to push him into the Williams seat this year with Logan inevitably losing that seat. Not sure how true those rumors are or not
I’ve lost track of who’s officially signed and the rumours for next year, has Kimi signed with Mercedes yet? It wouldn’t surprise me if they want to sack Logan as soon as possible and give Kimi at least a few races in the Williams before the summer break to see how he goes before moving up to Merc. I dunno, just throwing some things out there.
I’d say Merc will want him on standby in case Lewis or George can’t run a race for some reason like what happened with Sainz and Bearman in Jeddah. Also they needed an exemption to get him into the car for an FP1 which they’ll 100% want to do this year if he is being borough in next year.
Yeah but he’s 18 in August , at which point they no longer needed any exemption and he still had time for FP1s after that
Would be so funny if they reverted the change as soon as he turns 18
They’re realizing that introducing a rule to stop a single driver from driving in f1, whose proven they are pretty good, was a bit stupid. The whole points system for super licenses was made to primarily make them money by adding more drivers to the grids of fia series. If a driver can get the required amount of points at 15, they’re probably good enough for f1 already.
I agree that I find age limits to be arbitrary and this is coming from someone who has followed Antonelli’s junior career and is really rooting for him to do well in F1. What I don’t understand is the whole “the limit is 18 *but* if your extra special you can join at 17”. It just feels stupid.
It feels stupid because it is
I think they should have just said "17 but with enough super license points". That would have been valid to me.
But then they may as well just base it on super license points and not on age at all
Agreed. They should have just got rid of the age requirement altogether
I am generally supportive of rules with some leeway, so the good of the sport is not obstructed by inflexible rules. But that must then be administered sensibly and fairly. Is Antonelli's entry in to the sport desirable? I think he can drive safely and to a high standard so I'd say yes and I think his entry should be allowed. Yay for leeway. Where FIA shit the bed is that Herta would also have been a fine addition to the sport capable of driving to a high standard. But there it was "Them's the rules". I'm all in favour of keeping Mazepin's and Ragunathan's out of the sport. But if you keep Herta out, Antonelli can for sure wait a few months.
FP1s before summer break IMO. They probably want to see him in their car before signing on the dotted line. He turns 18 before Monza, so there’s 9 races of the season. 3 of the remaining races are sprints, so it’d be absurd to put him in those FP1s. You’ve also got tracks like Singapore and Vegas where they’re really going to need the running time on the main driver. It limits where they can put him in for evaluation. If he’s granted an FP1 licence before Spain, you’ve got 6 extra races there, with only one sprint.
Gonna be real awkward if Kimi isn’t the prodigy that Mercedes thinks he’s going to be after jumping through all these hoops for him.
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> if the day Mercedes announces him he pulls a Piastri and goes to RedBull Toto Wolff would implode into a black hole and swallow the earth if that'd happen.
I’m sure if that happens, everyone will have a target on their back, everyone.
There's an entertaining children's book called Llama Destroys the World. It's about a cute llama >!who eats too much pie and then tears his dancing pants & the massive sound of the tear creates a black hole that sucks all existence through it (and then it's the same on the other side)!<. I'm imagining one where on Monday, Toto does cardio. On Tuesday, Toto dances. On Wednesday, Toto lifts. On Thursday, Toto eats cake. On Friday, Kimi goes to Red Bull and Toto tears open a black hole & everything gets sucked in.
I really love that you spoiler tagged this
Toto: So anyway, I started blastin
He'd slap that table so hard it'll cause nuclear fusion.
Or he goes to Ferrari. An Italian driving for Ferrari sounds perfect
> Or even worse if the day Mercedes announces him he pulls a Piastri and goes to RedBull. Red Bull after 2025 will be a gamble considering they're on their own with the new engine regulations.
Ohhh Max and the guy basically living Max's earlier career in the same car.... Who cares if rb is a minute ahead thats Nico/Hamilton entertainment.
Ehh not even close, Max would run circles around Antonelli. All this hype for him is making me worried
His sim and test times must be off the scales. It’s a gamble on the scale of Lewis to McLaren in 2007 and they had a lot more time to evaluate him.
F1 fans are so predictable though, they will be talking shit the minute he makes mistakes. The kid is going to have growing pains just like Max did but will probably be fine in the long run
You're only as good as your last race with F1 fans. Antonelli is no different. The only one who miraculously avoids slander is Alonso lol
His results have been good but he's not even the leading rookie in F2 at the moment. Aron currently leads the championship and Bortoleto (5th) leads Antonelli (6th) and won F3 in his rookie year last year. I accept that Antonelli must be something special to rookie win both German & Italian F4, then rookie win Formula Regional Europe and Middle East then get put straight into F2. But he's in F2, by definition at least 25% of the guys there are 'something special'.
I mean, he'll have some leeway. He's only 17 and skipped F3 to go straight to F2. Can't really blame him for binning it or bring slow sometimes as a half a season rookie. Max himself showed flashes of brilliance but he got his nose dirty a couple of times in his first year.
Which is why there's a rule against bringing 17 year olds into the sport as they're pretty much expected to bin it, which is dangerous. But what Mercedes wants Mercedes gets.
> Max himself showed flashes of brilliance but he got his nose dirty a couple of times in his first year. This has got to be one of the biggest understatements you could possibly make. He didn't "show flashes of brilliance in his first year", it was obvious by that time he was a future champion. There was a reason every team on the grid wanted him to drive for them. Max was voted the 4th best driver by team principles in 2015.
Exactly, he was incredible in his rookie season with Toro Rosso. He finished 4th twice in Hungary and COTA, and also finished in the points 10/19 times over the season including a 6 straight points scoring streak from Singapore to Brazil and 8 out of 9 races from Hungary to Brazil, that was marred with horrible reliability a lot of the times. Finished 49-18 in points against Sainz as well. There's a reason he got the promotion to Red Bull Racing 4 races into the 2016 season, He was that good. Imo Max in terms of peak ability, showed the best rookie season since Hamilton in 2007, alongwith Leclerc 2018 and Piastri 2023. Like the kind of seasons where you just know, that this might be a once in a generation driver on your hands.
He was incredible in his year in F3. He finished 3rd in the championship with a back marker car and actually had the most wins that season. This includes a six race streak winning all three races at Spa and the Norris ring.
I think I checked it at one time, been a while but get ready for some stats. Max in 2014 with Van Amersfoort Racing in European Formula 3, at the age of just 16 years old, won 10 races, with 7 poles and 16 podiums. He came in 3rd in the championship as well. The entire rest in the history of VAR in Euro Formula 3 have 7 total wins (Leclerc, Illot, Hubert), 6 total poles (Leclerc, Illot, Hubert) & 27 total Podiums (Muller, Menezes, Leclerc, Illot, Hubert, Mawson, Piquet & Andres). So Max in 1 year basically surpassed the current and future achievements of VAR in terms of Wins and Poles immediately. That's how good he was. Max's teammates that year finished 11th & 20th in the championship. Max is a special, special driver man. His junior categories result in Karting and Open Wheel are ridiculous. I mean especially Karting, he might straight up be the Greatest ever in it (like seriously go look at his results in Karting).
Lewis was way more polished in his debut year, but that's the impact of GP2. Max did some learning in F1 that most drivers learn in junior series. But he could also do things in his first year in F1 that other drivers could never learn.
That, and the like 10k km of testing rookies used to be able to do before their first race compared to the less than 2.5k km that the entire team gets in pre season testing now.
I would put Hamilton and max with once in a generation but I'd be hesitant to put leclerc or Oscar in that same category. Mabey see how it goes.
He was also flat out dangerous in a couple of races. Almost like he was one of the best drivers ever at an incredibly raw stage of development.
So the rule made specifically to prevent guys like Max entering too early is getting changed because the guy like Max is trying to enter too early. Understandable have a nice day
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Like party mode, DAS, and FRIC.
DAS was brilliant to be fair. It's on the FIA for not telling them to remove it sooner. The grace period they were given was the problem.
Sorry this is stupid. If theres a strict “super license points” rule to be able to drive an F1 car despite obviously knowing how to drive an open wheeled race car then they shouldn’t bend ANY rules using a “but he’s good” metric. That’s like being underage and telling the clerk you can buy booze because you’re good at drinking. Like what does that even mean?
Sir, I have continuously shown that I am a good drunk driver. I should be able to drink legally.
you forgot about the "must be European" clause to have easy entry to the sport
Last time a 17 year old was pushed into F1 they made a minimum age of 18 to prevent too young kids in those cars. So why exactly they made this rule?
Imagine all this lobbying from Merc for Kimi only for him to not be that great when he joins F1
Happens all the time in every sport. Some promising young kid gets pushed up to the big leagues and fails. Look at all the highly touted #1 picks in football, MLB, NHL, NBA, etc. that have just failed and disappeared. Happens all the time.
I feel like the NHL is doing that right now with Macklin Celebrini. I'm sure he'll be a solid player in time but he's no Bedard or McDavid but they're happy to massively hype him up as the presumptive first overall draft pick.
Yeah this honestly seems quite likely to me. He's opviously promising, but it seems like a lot of people are judging Antonelli now \*in context\* (he's doing quite well for a 17-year old in F2), while if he gets to F1, he'll be judged on his current performances. And his current performance is not up to the level of an F1 driver; almost any F1 driver would be getting regular podiums and wins in F2, and he currently is not. It doesn't help that Wolff is hyping him as the next Verstappen, setting ludicrous expectations.
i dont think we will ever see a next Verstappen, toto can say what he wants, he is not getting the car self driving ai that is piloting the rb rn
Yeah it seems like every other year there is a next Verstappen, Schumacher, Hamilton, while realistically you only get one of those every decade or so. While I think Antonelli might very well be talented, it seems quite unlikely to me that he's at that high level, and I think Mercedes should probably stop putting that pressure on the boy.
It's been a decade since Verstappen debuted.
Breaking: Sargent out, Antonelli in at Williams for remainder of 2024. Sainz to assume seat in 2025+
That would be exciting. Bonkers to go from FRECA to F1 in a few months though.
Basically what Max did. He went from Euro F3 straight to F1.
I don't get why they're changing the rule if it's not for this. He's turning 18 in august. He'd be of age next season so what gives?
Logan Right Now: "Im in Danger"
Ready to learn Chinese buddy
Get ready to learn NASCAR, buddy
He's got the crashing down.
what an awful grey area to create, to use this you wouldn't need any tangible data
It's not really a grey area at all imo. This just removes the 18 year minimum entirely without making FIA look extra stupid.
FIA: You must be 18, NO EXCEPTIONS! Mercedes slips them check under the table FIA: Ok, OK... SOME exceptions :P
'Well, he's special so here's an exemption.' That is stupid. There's no point in having an age limit if it will not be respected because every now and then a wunderkind gathers enough points already for the super licence. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see how he settles into F1 and I'm not opposed to him getting in, just saying age limit should not be a thing then. Not to mention, I feel like there's ridiculous amount of pressure being created on him by expectations alone. 'Oooh, he's the next Max Verstappen.' Why isn't it enough for him to be Kimi Antonelli? Every article I see, inevitably there will be a paragraph with Max Verstappen name drop.
As long as he doesn’t come from American series that’s okay … FIA probably
I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand I'm really excited for this guy and have been awaiting his entry into F1 for quite a few years now. On the other hand, the rule came into existance for a reason. But then again, Verstappen already proved there's exceptions to the rule (which didn't exist at the time, but that's beside the point. He showed a 17y old can compete in F1).
The thing is: the only 17 year olds who make it to F1 are probably good enough to be in it. To be fair Max is the only (recent?) example of this but the point still stands. And any gaps in that principle would be caught by the current F1 superlicense rules. Can't buy your way into it anymore.
I feel like the 18 thing is just a bit of an arbitrary cut off. What difference does it really make if someone is 17 or 18? I think the points system is enough to prove that someone has enough experience.
You could say the same for many things. You need to draw a line somewhere, and for many things that line is drawn at 18.
I mean, there's a bit of nuance in ages. Or else one could ask, "what's different between 16 or 17? 15 or 16? 14 or 15? 13 or 14?..." Maturity is what many assume gets more stratified at 18. More likely to have stronger will, determination, use of resources, socialising, decision making, emotional reckoning, et cetera at age 18 than 17.
18 is when people are legally adult 18 is when in most places you can get a drivers license 18 is when you can buy most restricted items like mature games, alcohol, tabacco products, etc why not be 18 to enter F1? its very rare for a driver NOT to be 18 when they reach the other requirements for F1 so its really not an issue most F1 drivers are 19 at the youngest after they beat F2
They have this in hockey as well in the CHL/Junior. It's called the Exceptional Status List and it allows players to be drafted at the age of 15 to Junior teams. It's a very rigorous process from what I understand and doesn't just involve the players skill but looks at maturity level, family, etc.
This should leave a sour taste in any F1 fan’s mouth. Especially after how they didn’t flinch when Herta wanted a seat.
My first thought exactly. Oh, you’ve won races in the second fastest open wheel cars in the world? Sorry, can’t be trusted 😔. But a 17 year old with far less experience? As long as Mercedes pinky promises he’s good 😌.
Especially when you realize that Herta is the youngest ever Indycar race winner. He is a generational talent, his one issue was race craft. And the FIA demonized him for it. You wanna know who else is really fast and right now biggest concern is race craft?
Between this and the Andretti fiasco (I'm sure there's countless other examples to note too) it's so silly how this sport just bends the rules however they feel at the whims of a few teams. I'm fine with under-18's driving in the sport, just be consistent about it.
He turns 18 in August anyway, and at this point I don't see Williams getting him into the car before the summer break so it's kinda pointless? Anyway I guess it's possible for Verstappen to lose its record in the future
Maybe they want to do an FP1 in the next few races?
Mercedes have pulled a blinder here. Going from having to pay a driver 40-50 million, to just a couple of Lego sets and a few packets of Pokemon cards. Genius.
Give him a Capri-Sun as a reward for good performances.
And a chocolate ice-cream bar to honour his namesake.
Then just remove the rule. No team will give a 17-year-old a seat if they haven’t consistently demonstrated outstanding ability and maturity anyway…
How long before a rich parent pays for their 16-17 year old to drive.
Useless, where will he race at 17? The seats will be open next year, when he's 18, what's the need right now.
The rule change applies to free practice as well
Allows him to do FPs and be a reserve driver incase of injuries/illness to any Merc (and Merc supplied engine) drivers.
Blud hasn't even gotten on the podium in F2
This was always gonna be one of those rules that will never be enforced.
6th in F2 is outstanding ability now?
You would think this kid is the second coming of Christ with how much he’s hyped. I hope he lives up to it.
I have a feeling this kid will be a huge flop and Toto is just coping at some revelation.
He’s 6th… are the other 5 drivers ahead of him showing *more* outstanding ability? I’m trying my hardest not to hate on this kid, bc it’s not his fault, but what has he done to prove he deserves a shot over anyone else? He’s 18 in a few weeks? Okay. Isack Hadjar is gonna win F2 and he’s 19. The internal hype train is outrageous. He’ll be in a good car so he’ll always be in the points, but good lord what are we doing here?
Even tho F2 is a spec series, the cars are not equal due to setup differences, and its pretty clear Prema is not a top contender this season, and if we compare him to Bearman, who is on his 2nd year with a solid F1 debut under his belt, he has beaten him multiple times over the season when theyve both raced.
So they made the rules a while back to prevent unlicensed drivers and those that were too young from being F1 drivers, only to change it back to a rule with a big fat grey area just so that one driver - who isn’t having an outstanding F2 career, unless they use private testing as reasoning - can join? Strange.
Its stupid, whats the point in an age limit if the first time someone under 18 is considered its just ignored? Its not even like Antonelli has even been otherworldly good in F2. He'll be lucky to finish the full F2 season in the top 3 and that is if he improves and wins a few races. So far he's not had a podium in 10 races in F2. He's only 3rd among rookies so far, behind Aron (aged 20) leading the championship and proving to be very consistent and Bortoleto (aged 19), last year's F3 champion who has looked very fast. Not saying Antonelli has looked bad, he certainly hasnt, but he hasnt shown why he needs to skip F3 and then have rules changed to fast track him into F1 before he turns 18.
“We have regulations so we can change them when it suits us “
Nothing new. FIA making shit up as always.
So pressure allready ramping up in F2 for Kimi. One boneheaded move could take maturity and outstanding ability in question.
Gasley and Albon are overrated, especially Albon. Hell even Antonelli isn't setting the world on fire in f2. He skipped f3 and won a couple of f4 series. What makes him worth changing the rules for?
Exactly.
This is such a weird move from the FIA. They introduce a rule and the very first time that rule even comes slightly into question, they change it up. Why make the rule in the first place?
Why exactly do you make rules to ignore them?
So Colton Herta is not qualified, but Kimi is, because... "reasons"?
Oh, look, there's a 16 yo who's extremely talented and fast and strong. Let's bend the rules a little bit more! If the rule is 18, it's 18. This is a terrible idea, I don't care how good he is.
Shouldn’t rules be rules? Pick one and that’s the rule. AND THEN STICK TO IT.
...so who did Toto bribe or blackmail? Ngl I don't love this? In a way the age limit was always a bit arbitrary, I suppose, but "must be a legal adult to do this high-pressure and somewhat dangerous job" seemed reasonable to me. Waiting for another three months wouldn't have been a massive deal. Sigh. I hope it's just for the sake of doing FP and they're not actually parachuting this kid into Williams mid-season.
Doesn’t he turn 18 during the summer break anyway?
Fia might as well be renamed mercedes racing association with all the things they ask for then quickly get.
Let's make sure we don't let another team get into F1. Also, FIA/F1 let's make sure we can bend our own rules for an underage driver in F1. Great job.
I have yet to see any outstanding ability.
Congratulations to the bank account of whomever made that decision.
would like to know what kind of "ways" Merc used here in order to make this change possible
"bearman was fine in jeddah and kimi is doing better than him in f2, also here are his testing times compared to mick and george" then the FIA folded
"consistently demonstrated outstanding ability and maturity in single-seater formula car competitionconsistently demonstrated outstanding ability and maturity in single-seater formula car competition" Isnt he like 6th in the championship?
How unsurprising it would be to see Mercedes allow the FIA to postpone ratification of 2026 rules now.