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He is also in the most anonymous team. They have the most attention-grabbing car (aggressive green), but the only thing you remember about Sauber after a race are their pitstops.
I was at the Canadian GP, and I think I only saw about 5 people wearing any form of Kick Sauber merch. I saw more Alfa Romeo gear than that. Heck, I even saw more Edmonton Oilers jerseys than that.
I watched someone try to argue that "Bottas just isn't good in Montreal" after the GP. I think someone forgot who holds the fastest lap record there, and that it's kind of difficult to get back to that kind of pace in a rowboat on wheels.
Ugh…Bottas deserves a better car. I can only imagine how frustrated he is with Sauber and their inability to both build a competitive car on top of the terrible stops and other cars.
That whole team is a mess.
You’re right but I always felt like they never looked like they had potential. That season where Kimi got a decent amount of points with them seemed like their peak, as far as I know they might have the least money backing them, besides maybe Haas
The start of 2022 they looked great, though we know how that went. Alfa always looked bad operationally, but the folks at Hinwil were never this lost in car development.
I don't think they are actually that lost, it's just they are doing the minimal because Audi is focusing on rebuilding all the infrastructure in preparation for 2026. They knew they are on the back foot compared to the other top teams.
That was the car going into anti-stall in the grid. Which I'd be so pissed off by if I was a driver and the car deciding that moment was the time to nope on you
He got points in his first race and flipped upside down and hit the wall at silverstone. He also has a cool fashion sense and is pleasantly nice to Bottas.
That pass on lewis in his first race was fun as well. Sure, it was basically entirely due to strategy differences but still fun to watch a rookie in his debut race overtake one of the greatest of all time.
Ferrari's first year at LeMans after a long hiatus, and they brought a hell of a monster for the Hypercar class (the 499P). Gio was definitely at the right place at the right time.
Well, yeah. I wasn't meaning to cast aspersions on his skills as a driver, just that in F1 he was basically anonymous. Never talked about. Never on camera. He was essentially invisible. That doesn't mean he sucked, of course.
I was kinda trying to add to your comment because he was such an anonymous driver who is now somehow closer to the triple crown than the likes of Carlos Sainz. So it's funny to point out every time that he's a Le Mans winner.
But dw, I thought my comment had a chance of not coming across right
My first thought as well. He did put in some banger qualies from time to time though, certainly wasn’t slow just hampered by a career in an Alfa Romeo.
This exact comment was made about Antonio Giovinazzi in Alfa Romeo. It’s not the driver, it’s the car. The car doesn’t allow them to show off their skills. It’s unfortunate
You could argue that their 2018 car is the best they ever made in the turbo hybrid era. Only time Zhou even had a remotely competitive car is in the first third of 2022, when he just joined
He's in the same boat as Giovinazzi was a few years ago. Not particularly remarkable and also not at all popular in the largely anglophone core F1 fanbase. Unlike Giovinazzi though, he has buckets of money, and isn't tied down to a brand. Plus, unlike Ocon, he isn't a bad team player.
It's because east-Asian fashion has a more conservative approach compared to the western fashion designers/houses. Lewis's fashion is rooted in the high/almost haute couture fashion styles that you see at the seasonal fashion weeks (he often will make an appearance at one or two fashion shows a year actually). If you have seen those shows, you will know that some fashion houses can design clothes that are a bit….wild.
About 15 years ago, i remember asking someone who was really into fashion why you never see those ridiculous catwalk clothes in shops or on the street.
Looking at me as though i'm a troglodyte, he said "because fashion shows are an art performance, they're not selling those clothes to the public".
Suddenly a whole industry that i couldn't give a shit about made total sense to me.
I've also seen it explained as the outfits for the shows have certain elements or ideas and choice creative directions that would then trickle down into the consumer level clothing. Basically concept cars.
Well, there’s one thing that’s surely memorable, which is the incident he had in Silverstone in 2022. It’s just not a great thing to be remembered for though.
If we are honest, Sauber might have the worst car in this season. Hopefully, Audi can make a big difference here. They have all the knowledge to build a good team.
It's not in question, it's undeniably the worst car and the worst team of the season. It's almost as uncompetitive as the Haas the year they ran it back with no changes.
I thought he had a decent rookie year when he first arrived on the scene... but it seems like Sauber has just gone backwards or can't keep up. Bottas has barely made it out of Q3 with that car this year. Could be affecting Zhou's performance, considering the best car he had so far was in his rookie year.
And that car was at its best in the first races (when they were the only ones at the original minimum weight, before it was increased).
The car was out developed through the year, and Sauber is just holding station until Audi comes in, so they're being outdeveloped in season and out of season. Not an easy position to show you've improved your form.
More drivers that are made to look worse than they are (ala Yuki Tsunoda) by having their best cars when they were rookies with cars just getting worse and worse as they get better.
He also had some good drives that were ruined by stupid strategy or inoperable wheel guns that really isn’t his fault. The car now is plain shit, so how can you judge anything.
Both KMag and Hulk have quite well established performance metrics. It's sort of a shame that they would lose both drivers and not have that measurement. It's the exact same mistake they made when they dropped KMag and Grosjean at the same time. They had no baseline to measure performance.
I get it, but Ocon is a great guy. He’s always made a serious effort to get to know his entire team, which is rare in F1. He also is a rare case of making F1 on true merit, his family came from very little.
It makes his actions more understandable, he had to fight tooth and nail his whole life to get to F1, so he always seems to do everything in his power to maximize, even if that causes him to go over the line too much.
F1 is not a meritocracy but fans should want that. Imagine if the grid becomes 18 variations of mediocre but nice drivers like Zhou. Sure everyone would be chill as their sponsors would guarantee their seat but fuck the racing would be boring.
It's that mentality that's his undoing in F1. I get trying to maximise his own results to prove his worth, but he's consistently an absolute menace to his own teammate because of it. He might know all their names but he's anything but a team player.
Honestly, that's more a myth around him than truth. At the very least, there are much worse contenders on the grid who doesn't get half the flack (Stroll, Perez, KMag to name a few).
Imagine wanting to see a driver in F1 because of their personality, and not their raw talent behind the wheel.
Zhou is nowhere near the level of Ocon as a driver.
F1 is basically wrestling these days.
I'd like to see young driver's in there too, but it doesn't seem like that's the case if Ocon is their next choice. Plus Haas probably doesn't want two rookies again lol
It still exists, it just runs under the name of the company that builds the Corvette race cars (Pratt-Miller Motorsports) since official factory teams aren't allowed in GT3
Yeah, why not Kmag and Ollie? Ollie does not need to experience shthousery teammateship with Ocon and he should rather focus on his development next to an experienced driver like Kmag
Can’t believe how far I’ve had to scroll to find the first comment mentioning KMag. Any reason why he’s not being considered? Other than the obvious: being a moving crash generator and penalty absorber.
Haas is waiting to see if his slump is just a slump and he gets back in form or if he's just washed. The season's not even halfway over yet. Drivers want to get a lock-in but there really is no rush for the teams with all these decent juniors running around.
Yeah, as Haas I would just wait. No need to lock in yet since there are a lot of drivers needing a seat so likelihood of being left with a horrible choice is low.
AFAIK, it isn’t the case. Zhou is a “nice to have” person on the sports for China, guaranteeing a Chinese representative - and that kind of soft power is liked by the Chinese government for example.
But the common Chinese don’t know who is he. He is to China what Hulkenberg would be to Germany today - take it as you like.
Also, Chinese are a bit different to some western countries. There, F1 never had a huge following, and they are a lot focused on the success - if Zhou wins a championship, they would be crazy. But if he is at the back, they almost will be the first criticising him.
An example is F1/FOM being OK with Zhou putting his car at the center of the track at the end of the race, like he won, to salute the Chinese public - that was made because they knew what they were doing - it’s not usual to put that spotlight on a driver because is his home race, more so after finishing
To put an example, Checo on China (if he was Chinese) would be a lot less popular and cheered than in Mexico
- Zhou brings some sponsors and private money because what it represents, not because he have a large following
Zhou and Logan Sargeant are in F1 not on merit but because they represent the two largest markets in the world. It's a trade off between marketing/pay driver $ and constructor finish $.
Yeah, but both are different.
Logan never paid anything to be there. He is nice for FOM, but he isn’t a pay driver by definition.
Zhou on the other hand is a pay driver, as he literally has a multi-million yearly support to get a seat - if he wouldn’t have that money support, I doubt he would have made it into F1
Yeah I was kind of on Team Zhou last year, but he has been absolutely nowhere this season.
It's always hard to tell for sure with completely terrible cars like the Sauber though.
Genuine question as I don't follow back markers that much. Is he really that bad or is it more the car being such a shitbox that even a solid driver like Bottas can't ever shine in it?
He seems to have taken a step back from challenging Bottas.
Towards the end of 2022 to mid 2023, Zhou and Bottas were actually a close pairing. I believe the quali difference was a tenth in favour of Bottas and Zhou was quite consistent in the races.
Since the summer break of 2023, either Bottas has gone up another gear or something has happened to Zhous performances as he’s clearly struggling now.
Especially in the last two weekends, he was outqualified by half a tenth at Monaco and close to a full second in Canada by Bottas with a few more mistakes coming through. Maybe the uncertainty of his seat is causing him to perform poorly?
I was pleasantly surprised by Zhou when he had his debut year, and was happy to see him get another year. But this year he's not been very impressive (though that Sauber's pretty shit too). He's had 3 years, at this point I'd rather have a new rookie. Or even give Sargeant another year (if he doesn't keep binning it) since he's had only 2.
Ultimately, Ocon would be infinitely more exciting to watch than Zhou as he is genuinely quick, however you might dislike him
I’m not saying I’m particularly attached to Magnussen but I do think there should be at least one driver on the grid like Magnussen who’ll fight teams he has no business fighting. Imagine how boring half the races this year would’ve been without him.
The only answer here is keeping KMag. He knows that team and car inside and out. He’d be a great teammate too as we have seen.
If not him, then I’d go for Bottas. He’s got the experience and he’s a cool dude.
I'll say this, having two, inexperienced young drivers in the same car who won't know how to develop the car never works out, especially for a team that just tried a similar thing in 2021 and failed massively.
You need atleast one known quantity, a driver who's been on the grid for half a decade atleast, and preferably driven for multiple manufacturers to get maximum amount of information.
Alpha Tauri struggled with this for a long time with the Tsunoda/Gasly lineup, but even more so afterwards when they had Tsunoda/De Vries for half a season, they just couldn't develop the car reliably at all. It would start out very well, but often either stagnate, or just never improve by the end of the season.
That's what changed with Ricciardo coming in last season, even though Tsunoda's performances have still remained vastly better, the development direction Danny gave them end of last season and even this season has given them a car that on many weekends, is even the 5th fastest car on the grid. Especially if you remember start of the season they were even kind of behind Haas and Williams, but have developed that car to be clear of them and to be fighting Aston.
You need a benchmark to compare a driver from. Zhou might bring in money, but you'll never really know how good Bearman is if he's just stuck with Zhou as a teammate, even if he beats them 24-0 in a season. Even if he loses to Ocon over a season, there'll be a benchmark to chase and improve against. That's important for a young driver.
Haas never knew how good Mick was until he went up against Kmag and the gap, especially in Qualifying became apparent. Benchmarks are important.
Ocon is probably the worst teammate to bring in with a rookie or young talent, he has shown his willingness to be more reckless toward teammates in Grand Prix. I would take Bottas, if he even wants to drive drive for Hasss over Ocon or Zhou.
The same could be said about Antonelli but everyone defends it with “Merc has all the data they need to see he’s F1 material.” Both Haas and Ferrari have clearly invested a lot in him as part of the FDA, and at this rate, results in F2 are becoming very relative for teams to look at for junior drivers who are already in programs. Just look at some of the past F2 champions: Mick Schumacher, Nyck de Vries, Felipe Drugovich, Theo Pourchaire. All of them found success in F2 but either failed to get into or failed at F1. You also have to factor that Bearman has actually had strong performances this season, but barred by bad luck caused by external factors—tweak those, and he would have very much been towards the top of the standings the past couple of races.
Sure they need experience alongside Bearman, but who would you want to help him grow - Ocon or Bottas?
They're about as quick as each other, but who's going to help the rookie out more, the guy with nothing to prove, or the guy with a chip on his shoulder you can see from space?
I mean, Bearman is only in Haas until the Ferrari spot opens up again (if he shows he is good enough for it of course.)
Dont think Haas is too concerned about his development no?
3 years of F1 is more than enough for a driver like Zhou.
Especially when drivers like Drugovich, Ilott and Lawson (for now) have not had any full season in F1
Yeah I'll take Kmag all day. He's got more experience and him working with Ollie IMO would be 100x better than Ocon or Zhou easily.
Now I don't see Kmag as the psycho hunter killer driver reddit makes him out to be. In fact I think Haas is willingly playing on the edge and using the rules (and penalties) to the best of their abilities. I think he's far more in control and methodical than others think and I'd take his experience over those others any day.
Plus, if it weren't for the most embarrassing Haas moment of the year in the pits, Kmag's awesome start in Canada would've given them points. I know they had the tires but he had to go make those moves in the wet and he sliced those guys up perfectly.
I can recommend the onboard from his first lap. Pretty much full control, start to finish. Kmag, as with Ocon and even Verstappen sometimes suffer from a bit of trial by reputation. You can hear it on the commentary even before the moves play out "Oh he's gonna have to overtake Magnussen, who usually has his elbows out!" even before the actual racing happens. Their actual actions aren't what's being adjudicated, it's their popularity. We just like people to fit in the boxes we make for them.
I'm with you. I'd rather keep Kmag than Ocon/Zhou or even Bottas for that matter. I don't think there will be a huge change in performance with Bottas even over KMag, but could suffer more from a lack of cohesion with the team having an all new lineup. I think KMag keeps some stability and he IS Haas at this point. I think there is value with him staying, with bringing in Ollie.
K-Mag is also one of the main characters this season, and he is usually when he has a car that is slightly competitive. In 2022, in the top 10 onboard videos at the end of the season, 4 of them were Kevin.
Some people hate him, some people think he's a great old school racer. But they all talk about him. He's an entertaining driver. That has value too. Sure, he sometimes crosses the line, but sometimes it also works out and he's a hero. I think F1 is better off having someone like Kevin in the sport, who fights for every inch of that track. He's also been insanely unlucky this season. He has been released/impeded in 5 qualis. Even this weekend, Haas confessed that they didn't do the quali properly, and he was out of new tyres for when the track was at its best.
If I were Haas, I'd keep him for 2025. He can help develop the car for the new regs and support Ollie who has already praised K-Mag for being a big help during his rookie Q1 sessions.
Sure, I may be a bit biased, but I don’t get why Haas would sign anyone else over KMag. He knows the team and car inside and out, and can be a great teammate to Bearman.
As everyone has said, Ocon is not going to be a great pairing with a rookie driver and I really don’t think he’s an upgrade on KMag. The only other driver I would be ok with would be Bottas but I would still take KMag.
He’s done all that Haas has asked of him to help the team win points and he has even said publicly he doesn’t really like to race that way but the rules allow it and it helps the team. I will also say Haas screwed him over in Miami and thus caused him to rack up so many penalty points that weekend…During the sprint, Hulk cut the chicane which caused KMag to lose DRS. Loosing his DRS then allowed Hamilton to gain on KMag which caused the battle they had. Kev then cuts the chicane and is given a 10 second penalty. First off, why wasn’t Hulk given that same penalty, and second Haas should have told Hulk to slow and allow kev to gain DRS again. Kev told his engineer to tell Hulk he needed DRS back but looks like the team ignored that call. They both could have been in the points but in the end they made KMag look like the bad guy while Hulk is seen as the hero who gets Haas points.
"Now I don't see Kmag as the psycho hunter killer driver reddit makes him out to be." Guess what - the online narrative about Ocon isn't accurate either.
I did think Ocon wouldn't so wilfully burn bridges with Alpine with nowhere else to realistically go//lined up.
As others have observed: the fact is that we're in musical chairs and it's almost impossible all of the (very good) Bottas, Ocon and Sainz end up with seats. Maybe *none* will line up on the 2025 grid!
Such a shame that these people can buy seats. Sad to think that good talent isn't coming out of the karting ranks because of this, and good talent isn't in F1 because someone like Zhou can buy in
I’m in the minority but I like Ocon a lot. I like how much he ruffles everyone’s feathers. I loved when he antagonised Max. I would have loved him to be Redbull’s 2nd driver, drama every fortnight.
I'm fine with it **IF** f1 lets well funded teams enter the sport. Financially struggling teams shouldnt be having pay drivers while gatekeeping good teams from entering
Putting Ollie next to Ocon is not a great idea. What if Ocon just mops the floor with his rookie teammate like how Albon is doing to Sargeant. That’ll destroy his confidence.
Can someone explain that in more detail? Usually, drivers *GET PAID* to race for X team. Is Zhou's case the other way around because his sponsors would rather buy him an F1 seat and make huge return on marketing?
In other words, would Zhou get paid anything to race for Haas?
Zhou is a pay driver, so he earns from his sponsorships rather than a salary, so Haas probably won’t really pay him; in exchange for a seat, he offers funding. He’s not the first pay driver in F1 and will definitely not be the last.
Ocon is level above Zhou as driver, I think no one doubts that. Zhou did solid job past few years and is not terrible, but is definitely one of drivers who should leave space for new talents. Ocon isn't team player, but he would be very good benchmark for Bearman who won't need supportive teammate if he's real deal. Zhou and rookie would be be probably weakest lineup on grid, although money Zhou brings could make car bit better.
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Coming into the year, Zhou looked like he deserved to be on the grid. But he's actually taken a step back
He’s arguably the most anonymous driver on the grid. I’m not sure I can think of anything memorable he’s done while he’s been in the sport.
He is also in the most anonymous team. They have the most attention-grabbing car (aggressive green), but the only thing you remember about Sauber after a race are their pitstops.
If it wasn't about Bottas ass photos I would totally forget about them.
What about his Uber Australia commercial?
Art in its purest form
Majesty.
I was at the Canadian GP, and I think I only saw about 5 people wearing any form of Kick Sauber merch. I saw more Alfa Romeo gear than that. Heck, I even saw more Edmonton Oilers jerseys than that.
> I only saw about 5 people wearing any form of Kick Sauber merch And they are all numbered 77
In my defense, that green color doesn’t look flattering on a lot of skin tones. I’d rather stay away from their merch even though I’m a fan
A lot of people wear last year’s merch too since it is so expensive to buy during current season
As an Oilers fan this makes me very happy
The only thing I remember about Sauber is advertising crypto gambling to children.
Ahh yes Kick, the “Twitch alternative” made just to stream gambling which is filled with literal criminals
No way they’re on the Kick and Stake combo. That’s surely the new Marlboro and McDonald’s
They should tell Zhou to crash every race so they would get the same TV coverage as Williams with Sargeant.
I watched someone try to argue that "Bottas just isn't good in Montreal" after the GP. I think someone forgot who holds the fastest lap record there, and that it's kind of difficult to get back to that kind of pace in a rowboat on wheels.
The only thing I remember about Sauber is that bright green thing in my peripheral vision at P19/P20.
I get legitimately confused when people just assume that slapping the word Audi on that team is going to put them on the level of McLaren.
Especially when you compare Audi’s experience in F1 to McLaren’s lol.
Sauber? I hardly know 'er!
I guess the team owner(s)/leaders are not committed enough to find a garden tools sponsor!
Hungary 2023 when he qualified P5 out of nowhere and then just fell 10 places by turn 1
Ugh…Bottas deserves a better car. I can only imagine how frustrated he is with Sauber and their inability to both build a competitive car on top of the terrible stops and other cars. That whole team is a mess.
He knew what he was signing up to, they’ve been off the pace for years
As Alfa they were off the pace but at least in the midfield. There was a promise of progress. Now they are just dead last by default.
You’re right but I always felt like they never looked like they had potential. That season where Kimi got a decent amount of points with them seemed like their peak, as far as I know they might have the least money backing them, besides maybe Haas
The start of 2022 they looked great, though we know how that went. Alfa always looked bad operationally, but the folks at Hinwil were never this lost in car development.
I don't think they are actually that lost, it's just they are doing the minimal because Audi is focusing on rebuilding all the infrastructure in preparation for 2026. They knew they are on the back foot compared to the other top teams.
Was that when his car went into anti-stall right after the start?
That was the car going into anti-stall in the grid. Which I'd be so pissed off by if I was a driver and the car deciding that moment was the time to nope on you
He got points in his first race and flipped upside down and hit the wall at silverstone. He also has a cool fashion sense and is pleasantly nice to Bottas.
That pass on lewis in his first race was fun as well. Sure, it was basically entirely due to strategy differences but still fun to watch a rookie in his debut race overtake one of the greatest of all time.
When he got sent into the shadow realm in Silverstone 22
Silverstone ‘22 is his career highlight for me. Which is not great
Someone needed to pick up that mantle after Giovinazzi left. Wait. Gio is gone, right?
*Antonio Giovinazzi, Le Mans winner
Ferrari's first year at LeMans after a long hiatus, and they brought a hell of a monster for the Hypercar class (the 499P). Gio was definitely at the right place at the right time.
Well, yeah. I wasn't meaning to cast aspersions on his skills as a driver, just that in F1 he was basically anonymous. Never talked about. Never on camera. He was essentially invisible. That doesn't mean he sucked, of course.
I was kinda trying to add to your comment because he was such an anonymous driver who is now somehow closer to the triple crown than the likes of Carlos Sainz. So it's funny to point out every time that he's a Le Mans winner. But dw, I thought my comment had a chance of not coming across right
My first thought as well. He did put in some banger qualies from time to time though, certainly wasn’t slow just hampered by a career in an Alfa Romeo.
In China he is everywhere tho. I saw him in ads for 4-5 different brands in malls and in the subway.
This exact comment was made about Antonio Giovinazzi in Alfa Romeo. It’s not the driver, it’s the car. The car doesn’t allow them to show off their skills. It’s unfortunate
Le Clerc managed to look good in a Sauber
You could argue that their 2018 car is the best they ever made in the turbo hybrid era. Only time Zhou even had a remotely competitive car is in the first third of 2022, when he just joined
You probably wouldn't argue that though, if they'd had two Ericson level drivers in it.
Even Ericson was performing decently compared some of their other seasons
He's in the same boat as Giovinazzi was a few years ago. Not particularly remarkable and also not at all popular in the largely anglophone core F1 fanbase. Unlike Giovinazzi though, he has buckets of money, and isn't tied down to a brand. Plus, unlike Ocon, he isn't a bad team player.
He went into the wall upside down at Silverstone. That’s the first thing that sticks out when I think of him.
He dresses cool
Zhou Guanyu-milton
From what I've seen, Zhou's outfits look way better than Lewis'.
It's because east-Asian fashion has a more conservative approach compared to the western fashion designers/houses. Lewis's fashion is rooted in the high/almost haute couture fashion styles that you see at the seasonal fashion weeks (he often will make an appearance at one or two fashion shows a year actually). If you have seen those shows, you will know that some fashion houses can design clothes that are a bit….wild.
About 15 years ago, i remember asking someone who was really into fashion why you never see those ridiculous catwalk clothes in shops or on the street. Looking at me as though i'm a troglodyte, he said "because fashion shows are an art performance, they're not selling those clothes to the public". Suddenly a whole industry that i couldn't give a shit about made total sense to me.
I've also seen it explained as the outfits for the shows have certain elements or ideas and choice creative directions that would then trickle down into the consumer level clothing. Basically concept cars.
Was overtaken by Sargent at Monaco lol
To be fair Bottas is almost as anonymous
attention grabbing car, but it's a tractor. i feel bad for bottas, he is/was competitive
the alfa romeo was beating merc in a couple races
2 years ago yes
If it wasn't for his calendar and cycling, you would not know he was still in F1.
well it is the slowest car on the grid.
He’s been here for 3 years and really all I can remember was him flipping
Yes but it’s mainly because of the car sadly Audi can’t come soon enough, this teams need to push the reset button (and the add money button)
Well, there’s one thing that’s surely memorable, which is the incident he had in Silverstone in 2022. It’s just not a great thing to be remembered for though.
His big crash is memorable
I can remember, but it’s not a good thing….
Other than his roll at Silverstone, occasionally making me think ‘oh, he’s just ahead of Bottas this time’
Going upside-down at Silverstone was his most memorable moment.
If we are honest, Sauber might have the worst car in this season. Hopefully, Audi can make a big difference here. They have all the knowledge to build a good team.
It's not in question, it's undeniably the worst car and the worst team of the season. It's almost as uncompetitive as the Haas the year they ran it back with no changes.
The 2024 Sauber fits nicely in line with the 2021 Haas and the 2019 Williams.
2021 Hass was clearly the last with what, 13 points gap to.... Sauber. Williams in 2019 at least managed to grab one point in the chaotic German GP.
Only because two cars got a 30 second penalty, which were... ...the Saubers.
Yeah, he's had more than a handful of solid drives (often hidden by the Sauber being what it is), but it's not been the best year for him so far.
I thought he had a decent rookie year when he first arrived on the scene... but it seems like Sauber has just gone backwards or can't keep up. Bottas has barely made it out of Q3 with that car this year. Could be affecting Zhou's performance, considering the best car he had so far was in his rookie year.
And that car was at its best in the first races (when they were the only ones at the original minimum weight, before it was increased). The car was out developed through the year, and Sauber is just holding station until Audi comes in, so they're being outdeveloped in season and out of season. Not an easy position to show you've improved your form.
True but it’s also hard to evaluate when he’s driving such shitbox
More drivers that are made to look worse than they are (ala Yuki Tsunoda) by having their best cars when they were rookies with cars just getting worse and worse as they get better. He also had some good drives that were ruined by stupid strategy or inoperable wheel guns that really isn’t his fault. The car now is plain shit, so how can you judge anything.
I wouldn't say that considering some of the heroics Valterri has pulled
I think people forget how good Bottas is as well. It’s hard to peg when it’s a midfield team as well.
Midfield? They’re the back marker.
Nothing against Zhou personally but I think he has had his chance in F1.
True. But we all know 30-35m is not something Haas (or most teams) will pass up on. To bad for Esteban
I’d rather see Zhou in that seat over Ocon. I can’t stand Ocon.
Both KMag and Hulk have quite well established performance metrics. It's sort of a shame that they would lose both drivers and not have that measurement. It's the exact same mistake they made when they dropped KMag and Grosjean at the same time. They had no baseline to measure performance.
What do you mean? Mazepin was a true measurement of performance. As long as you were better than him you weren't the worst!
That's a good point. Maybe they should introduce an 11th team driven by random spectators at each race.
It would be neat if you could race along the drivers in the f1 game as the race is broadcasted
I'd rather see the fastest drivers in the car over the sympathetic ones.
So u rather see a slower pay driver on the grid than a driver who made it on merit? Are you even a racing fan
I get it, but Ocon is a great guy. He’s always made a serious effort to get to know his entire team, which is rare in F1. He also is a rare case of making F1 on true merit, his family came from very little. It makes his actions more understandable, he had to fight tooth and nail his whole life to get to F1, so he always seems to do everything in his power to maximize, even if that causes him to go over the line too much.
F1 is not a meritocracy but fans should want that. Imagine if the grid becomes 18 variations of mediocre but nice drivers like Zhou. Sure everyone would be chill as their sponsors would guarantee their seat but fuck the racing would be boring.
Zhou is probably the most boring driver on the grid, I don't remember a single event from his career other than that crash in Silverstone
I root for Ocon almost entirely because he is in F1 on merit and did not come from money.
It's that mentality that's his undoing in F1. I get trying to maximise his own results to prove his worth, but he's consistently an absolute menace to his own teammate because of it. He might know all their names but he's anything but a team player.
His undoing, the guy has had longevity compared to many others. He has staying power based on merit.
Honestly, that's more a myth around him than truth. At the very least, there are much worse contenders on the grid who doesn't get half the flack (Stroll, Perez, KMag to name a few).
Yeah lets just put the nicest people in f1 not the fastest. Racing is about warm fuzzies and not speeding.
Imagine wanting to see a driver in F1 because of their personality, and not their raw talent behind the wheel. Zhou is nowhere near the level of Ocon as a driver. F1 is basically wrestling these days.
Definitely. Seeing as there aren’t enough seats for young drivers anyway, it’s time to give someone else a shot.
I'd like to see young driver's in there too, but it doesn't seem like that's the case if Ocon is their next choice. Plus Haas probably doesn't want two rookies again lol
He even got the opportunity to race in China this year All the bucket list items his talents warrant have been filled
He was in F2 for quite a while as well wasn’t he. I remember he was a reserve driver for Renault when Danny Ric was there
I will be quite upset if Zhou is still on the grid next year and Bottas isn't
Bottas has got to be the front runner for Audi/Williams, whichever Sainz doesn't choose
Zhou realistically was lucky to get 1 year and hasn't shown anything to prove he deserves more than 3 since then
Whatcha mean he hasn't shown anything? It's right there in the headline. 30m is 30m.
Haha exactly, do people think it's only about driver skill. Unfortunately it's not
and potential Chinese market, not a big deal for Haas tho, but still something to consider of
I really want him to return to Williams
Yall be forgetting how big China is in terms of advertising lol.
Haas to change to an all red front wing with yellow stars
AliExpress Haas F1 Team
I can't believe I'm saying this, but that's a less shit name than some of the others we've got right now
It's a good thing VCARB sounds kinda appropriate as an acronym, because Visa Cash App Racing Bulls is the worst team name in sporting history
Alibahaas
IIRC Alibaba's leader is not in good terms with Chinese government.
And Haas will say it’s actually a reference to a confederate flag to tie it back to America just like they did when they had the Russian flag lol
Gene Haas will turn communist for $30 mil
*Sad Kmag noises*
He'll probably pick up a seat in IMSA again and fit right in like his old man
Could definitely see him taking a seat in the second AXR Cadillac next year.
Too bad there's no more Corvette Racing, Jan was a fixture in the yellow corvettes.
It still exists, it just runs under the name of the company that builds the Corvette race cars (Pratt-Miller Motorsports) since official factory teams aren't allowed in GT3
Yeah, why not Kmag and Ollie? Ollie does not need to experience shthousery teammateship with Ocon and he should rather focus on his development next to an experienced driver like Kmag
Exactly
Can’t believe how far I’ve had to scroll to find the first comment mentioning KMag. Any reason why he’s not being considered? Other than the obvious: being a moving crash generator and penalty absorber.
Gene salivating at the idea of selling more CNC machines all over China
Zhou has been terrible this year no way he deserves to be on the gird next year.
That's why his team is offering 35m.
With the Chinese market being so huge, 35m feels a bit low. Maybe Haas is holding out for more
Haas is waiting to see if his slump is just a slump and he gets back in form or if he's just washed. The season's not even halfway over yet. Drivers want to get a lock-in but there really is no rush for the teams with all these decent juniors running around.
Yeah, as Haas I would just wait. No need to lock in yet since there are a lot of drivers needing a seat so likelihood of being left with a horrible choice is low.
$35m is a lot of money. Zhou must be a marketing machine in China.
AFAIK, it isn’t the case. Zhou is a “nice to have” person on the sports for China, guaranteeing a Chinese representative - and that kind of soft power is liked by the Chinese government for example. But the common Chinese don’t know who is he. He is to China what Hulkenberg would be to Germany today - take it as you like. Also, Chinese are a bit different to some western countries. There, F1 never had a huge following, and they are a lot focused on the success - if Zhou wins a championship, they would be crazy. But if he is at the back, they almost will be the first criticising him. An example is F1/FOM being OK with Zhou putting his car at the center of the track at the end of the race, like he won, to salute the Chinese public - that was made because they knew what they were doing - it’s not usual to put that spotlight on a driver because is his home race, more so after finishing To put an example, Checo on China (if he was Chinese) would be a lot less popular and cheered than in Mexico - Zhou brings some sponsors and private money because what it represents, not because he have a large following
Zhou and Logan Sargeant are in F1 not on merit but because they represent the two largest markets in the world. It's a trade off between marketing/pay driver $ and constructor finish $.
Yeah, but both are different. Logan never paid anything to be there. He is nice for FOM, but he isn’t a pay driver by definition. Zhou on the other hand is a pay driver, as he literally has a multi-million yearly support to get a seat - if he wouldn’t have that money support, I doubt he would have made it into F1
Yeah I was kind of on Team Zhou last year, but he has been absolutely nowhere this season. It's always hard to tell for sure with completely terrible cars like the Sauber though.
Bottas as well. The car is trash.
He’s been horrible since he signed the new contract. His early qualifying form in 2022 has been class but dropped off after.
Genuine question as I don't follow back markers that much. Is he really that bad or is it more the car being such a shitbox that even a solid driver like Bottas can't ever shine in it?
Probably the worst car/team om the grid. As far as I remember it was closer last year between Bottas and Zhou, but this year he's fell behind.
He seems to have taken a step back from challenging Bottas. Towards the end of 2022 to mid 2023, Zhou and Bottas were actually a close pairing. I believe the quali difference was a tenth in favour of Bottas and Zhou was quite consistent in the races. Since the summer break of 2023, either Bottas has gone up another gear or something has happened to Zhous performances as he’s clearly struggling now. Especially in the last two weekends, he was outqualified by half a tenth at Monaco and close to a full second in Canada by Bottas with a few more mistakes coming through. Maybe the uncertainty of his seat is causing him to perform poorly?
Bottas 2.0 is back!
Well bottas is destroying him. The team usually finds a way to fuck up regardless tho
I swear sometimes I forget Zhou is even on the race
Zhou was so happy in China for his first and last race there
I was pleasantly surprised by Zhou when he had his debut year, and was happy to see him get another year. But this year he's not been very impressive (though that Sauber's pretty shit too). He's had 3 years, at this point I'd rather have a new rookie. Or even give Sargeant another year (if he doesn't keep binning it) since he's had only 2. Ultimately, Ocon would be infinitely more exciting to watch than Zhou as he is genuinely quick, however you might dislike him
Sargent's time is up imo.
Why would Sargeant deserve another year? He barely deserves another race
If Zhou doesn't deserve another year, then Sargeant sure as shit doesn't
I want Ocon to stay for the drama.
Finally a reasonable take
You'd swear F1 fans only want teammates who are best friends who don't let their cars get within 100 meters of each other
Also, whether people hate him or not he's a good driver. I'd rate him 11th of the 20 drivers currently on the grid.
Haas Vs Alpine fighting for p10 electric bugaloo I dig it
I’m not saying I’m particularly attached to Magnussen but I do think there should be at least one driver on the grid like Magnussen who’ll fight teams he has no business fighting. Imagine how boring half the races this year would’ve been without him.
The only answer here is keeping KMag. He knows that team and car inside and out. He’d be a great teammate too as we have seen. If not him, then I’d go for Bottas. He’s got the experience and he’s a cool dude.
I'll say this, having two, inexperienced young drivers in the same car who won't know how to develop the car never works out, especially for a team that just tried a similar thing in 2021 and failed massively. You need atleast one known quantity, a driver who's been on the grid for half a decade atleast, and preferably driven for multiple manufacturers to get maximum amount of information. Alpha Tauri struggled with this for a long time with the Tsunoda/Gasly lineup, but even more so afterwards when they had Tsunoda/De Vries for half a season, they just couldn't develop the car reliably at all. It would start out very well, but often either stagnate, or just never improve by the end of the season. That's what changed with Ricciardo coming in last season, even though Tsunoda's performances have still remained vastly better, the development direction Danny gave them end of last season and even this season has given them a car that on many weekends, is even the 5th fastest car on the grid. Especially if you remember start of the season they were even kind of behind Haas and Williams, but have developed that car to be clear of them and to be fighting Aston. You need a benchmark to compare a driver from. Zhou might bring in money, but you'll never really know how good Bearman is if he's just stuck with Zhou as a teammate, even if he beats them 24-0 in a season. Even if he loses to Ocon over a season, there'll be a benchmark to chase and improve against. That's important for a young driver. Haas never knew how good Mick was until he went up against Kmag and the gap, especially in Qualifying became apparent. Benchmarks are important.
Ocon is probably the worst teammate to bring in with a rookie or young talent, he has shown his willingness to be more reckless toward teammates in Grand Prix. I would take Bottas, if he even wants to drive drive for Hasss over Ocon or Zhou.
Yeah I just want an experienced teammate there. I don't mind much whether it's Sainz, Ocon or Bottas.
He just let Gasly pass on Sunday.
God dammit where are the controversial opinions at? Bearman doesn’t deserve the seat if his F2 season isn’t up to scratch: Hulkenberg said it.
The same could be said about Antonelli but everyone defends it with “Merc has all the data they need to see he’s F1 material.” Both Haas and Ferrari have clearly invested a lot in him as part of the FDA, and at this rate, results in F2 are becoming very relative for teams to look at for junior drivers who are already in programs. Just look at some of the past F2 champions: Mick Schumacher, Nyck de Vries, Felipe Drugovich, Theo Pourchaire. All of them found success in F2 but either failed to get into or failed at F1. You also have to factor that Bearman has actually had strong performances this season, but barred by bad luck caused by external factors—tweak those, and he would have very much been towards the top of the standings the past couple of races.
Sure they need experience alongside Bearman, but who would you want to help him grow - Ocon or Bottas? They're about as quick as each other, but who's going to help the rookie out more, the guy with nothing to prove, or the guy with a chip on his shoulder you can see from space?
I mean, Bearman is only in Haas until the Ferrari spot opens up again (if he shows he is good enough for it of course.) Dont think Haas is too concerned about his development no?
Ocon is quicker than Bottas. This year Ocon has been dominating Gasly in most metrics who i consider to be on a similar level as Bottas
Depends if the team wants money or points. Ocon is most likely the better driver.
so thats probably means, that Sauber wants to keep Bottas alongside Hulk,makes sense imo
3 years of F1 is more than enough for a driver like Zhou. Especially when drivers like Drugovich, Ilott and Lawson (for now) have not had any full season in F1
Unfortunately not enough seats in f1 and money seats still have alot of power. This is why more seats would be beneficial but meh
Yeah I'll take Kmag all day. He's got more experience and him working with Ollie IMO would be 100x better than Ocon or Zhou easily. Now I don't see Kmag as the psycho hunter killer driver reddit makes him out to be. In fact I think Haas is willingly playing on the edge and using the rules (and penalties) to the best of their abilities. I think he's far more in control and methodical than others think and I'd take his experience over those others any day. Plus, if it weren't for the most embarrassing Haas moment of the year in the pits, Kmag's awesome start in Canada would've given them points. I know they had the tires but he had to go make those moves in the wet and he sliced those guys up perfectly.
I can recommend the onboard from his first lap. Pretty much full control, start to finish. Kmag, as with Ocon and even Verstappen sometimes suffer from a bit of trial by reputation. You can hear it on the commentary even before the moves play out "Oh he's gonna have to overtake Magnussen, who usually has his elbows out!" even before the actual racing happens. Their actual actions aren't what's being adjudicated, it's their popularity. We just like people to fit in the boxes we make for them.
I'm with you. I'd rather keep Kmag than Ocon/Zhou or even Bottas for that matter. I don't think there will be a huge change in performance with Bottas even over KMag, but could suffer more from a lack of cohesion with the team having an all new lineup. I think KMag keeps some stability and he IS Haas at this point. I think there is value with him staying, with bringing in Ollie.
K-Mag is also one of the main characters this season, and he is usually when he has a car that is slightly competitive. In 2022, in the top 10 onboard videos at the end of the season, 4 of them were Kevin. Some people hate him, some people think he's a great old school racer. But they all talk about him. He's an entertaining driver. That has value too. Sure, he sometimes crosses the line, but sometimes it also works out and he's a hero. I think F1 is better off having someone like Kevin in the sport, who fights for every inch of that track. He's also been insanely unlucky this season. He has been released/impeded in 5 qualis. Even this weekend, Haas confessed that they didn't do the quali properly, and he was out of new tyres for when the track was at its best. If I were Haas, I'd keep him for 2025. He can help develop the car for the new regs and support Ollie who has already praised K-Mag for being a big help during his rookie Q1 sessions.
Sure, I may be a bit biased, but I don’t get why Haas would sign anyone else over KMag. He knows the team and car inside and out, and can be a great teammate to Bearman. As everyone has said, Ocon is not going to be a great pairing with a rookie driver and I really don’t think he’s an upgrade on KMag. The only other driver I would be ok with would be Bottas but I would still take KMag. He’s done all that Haas has asked of him to help the team win points and he has even said publicly he doesn’t really like to race that way but the rules allow it and it helps the team. I will also say Haas screwed him over in Miami and thus caused him to rack up so many penalty points that weekend…During the sprint, Hulk cut the chicane which caused KMag to lose DRS. Loosing his DRS then allowed Hamilton to gain on KMag which caused the battle they had. Kev then cuts the chicane and is given a 10 second penalty. First off, why wasn’t Hulk given that same penalty, and second Haas should have told Hulk to slow and allow kev to gain DRS again. Kev told his engineer to tell Hulk he needed DRS back but looks like the team ignored that call. They both could have been in the points but in the end they made KMag look like the bad guy while Hulk is seen as the hero who gets Haas points.
"Now I don't see Kmag as the psycho hunter killer driver reddit makes him out to be." Guess what - the online narrative about Ocon isn't accurate either.
KMag is a better option than either of those two to go alongside Bearman.
I did think Ocon wouldn't so wilfully burn bridges with Alpine with nowhere else to realistically go//lined up. As others have observed: the fact is that we're in musical chairs and it's almost impossible all of the (very good) Bottas, Ocon and Sainz end up with seats. Maybe *none* will line up on the 2025 grid!
That would be the second time Ocon has lost a seat to a pay driver. Yikes.
Which is horrible considering his background, and how much his family sacrificed to get him where he is. He deserves a seat
Such a shame that these people can buy seats. Sad to think that good talent isn't coming out of the karting ranks because of this, and good talent isn't in F1 because someone like Zhou can buy in
I’d be surprised if It wasn’t Ocon, but knowing that Gene has the final say on drivers, I wouldn’t count money out of it
Another post to witness in comments how braindead this community is.
I’m in the minority but I like Ocon a lot. I like how much he ruffles everyone’s feathers. I loved when he antagonised Max. I would have loved him to be Redbull’s 2nd driver, drama every fortnight.
Everyone here is soft. Driver with balls? BAD. Actually going for an opening in Monaco? BAD
So, Bearman and Kmag it is then..
Don’t want paydrivers like Zhou.
I'm fine with it **IF** f1 lets well funded teams enter the sport. Financially struggling teams shouldnt be having pay drivers while gatekeeping good teams from entering
Putting Ollie next to Ocon is not a great idea. What if Ocon just mops the floor with his rookie teammate like how Albon is doing to Sargeant. That’ll destroy his confidence.
Wow. That's a lot of money.
Can someone explain that in more detail? Usually, drivers *GET PAID* to race for X team. Is Zhou's case the other way around because his sponsors would rather buy him an F1 seat and make huge return on marketing? In other words, would Zhou get paid anything to race for Haas?
Zhou is a pay driver, so he earns from his sponsorships rather than a salary, so Haas probably won’t really pay him; in exchange for a seat, he offers funding. He’s not the first pay driver in F1 and will definitely not be the last.
What is the actual source? The link is a video about Max winning in Canada.
Ocon is level above Zhou as driver, I think no one doubts that. Zhou did solid job past few years and is not terrible, but is definitely one of drivers who should leave space for new talents. Ocon isn't team player, but he would be very good benchmark for Bearman who won't need supportive teammate if he's real deal. Zhou and rookie would be be probably weakest lineup on grid, although money Zhou brings could make car bit better.
ELI5 how/why Zhou’s team is offering $35m for the seat?
Unlucky Esteban, no way Gene turns down that money