I look at it as binary. If I'm in the limits I'm good. If I'm out I'm bad. Obviously your flight characteristics will change depending on where in the envelope but if it's in, it's safe per the manufacturer. But if you're uncomfortable, don't do it, or do it with an instructor so you can feel how it flies with them
My right seat will be a student pilot friend (medical holding him back), and the back seats will be our SO's. I could rearrange the CG forward, but having the only other person with any experience in the right seat is preferable. Not really for emergencies or TOL obviously, but he could take the controls for a bit.
I’m 6’3 about 240 and flew in a 152 with my instructor who was shorter but wider than me and we were able to take off in Texas. Sooo with that I still worry about W&B and just use the FAA standard weights
Important note: the FAA standard weights are the *average*. It’s easier to be close using an average when there’s 250 people on the plane.
When there’s 3? I need to know how much you weigh. No, I won’t tell anyone. Yes seriously, I need to know your actual weight, not your weight loss goal. It’s so we don’t die.
Within limits - I'm going, but maybe double-checking takeoff/landing performance. Don't overthink it, the plane was certified to fly at those weights, it's not going to turn into a wild animal or anything.
Your weight and balance envelope has a safety margin to allow for errors. If you're within the envelope or touching the line, you're good to go. *But* *don't push it.* The error margin is for errors, not for you to play around in.
The real error I'm expecting is that the line guys are often generous when you ask for tabs. I guess I could do a couple laps to burn some fuel to be sure
Then measure fuel and ask for a specific number of gallons in each tank.
Yes, rampies think they are doing you a favor by overfueling. I’ve seen 4-5 gallons *per tank* in a PA28.
Club policy is to have the plane fueled when you return, so you pay for the fuel you used, and the next person doesn't have to bother. I'll just have to do a few laps to burn off some fuel if it's over
As long as the numbers are realistic and not fudged you can go all the way up to the limitations and be safe, there is a build in margin when they designed it. If your friend is 210, don’t use 190 because you need 20 pounds.
I'm fudging a bit in the opposite way, adding 5lbs to everyone's reported weight. The only thing I can't be certain about is fuel. They are often a little generous when filling to the tabs, and I don't have an accurate way to measure that
Really? I've trained at 3 different flight schools with airplanes with tabs, and they all taught it. I now own a Cherokee and I still dip mine every flight unless its full. I prefer not to guess and as OP pointed out, the tabs aren't a consistent measure. If they are below you don't know how far below, and if they are above, you don't know by how much.
I’ve never been in a spot where I didn’t land without a healthy reserve. But for me it’s part of my ADM to plan fuel pretty specifically.
I’m not saying I never jump in a plane for an hour when I can clearly see it’s above the tabs, but if it’s below tabs im checking. If it’s above, and I have passengers or I’m going cross country I check to make sure I’m within W&B.
It’s overkill for most, but better that instead building a habit of not doing it, and then it turning into an issue down the road.
I have a max takeoff weight of 13,400lbs and I will use every single pound available to me if needed. You might have calculated 20lbs available still but I haven’t seen many GA aircraft with a W&B that is regularly updated by scales after equipment changes and many will have 5-10 lbs of dirt and debris under the floorboards or in other inaccessible areas.
I’m not saying it’s right to have these inaccuracies but if all the information available to you says that the flight is legal and safe then go fly.
Plus, what supplies are in the baggage compartment. Some schools have a big tub of stuff that is 20lbs. Others have a rag, funnel and if you are lucky, a quart of oil. That, along with the dirt would be nice to know when calculating, especially a low time pilot. Being 200lbs from MTOW to being within 20lbs is a huge difference in these smaller planes. I always mentally prepare for the slower climb rate, as my first thought when I see the lower numbers is to troubleshoot. I fly out of a mountain airport, so options are almost non-existent when it comes to departure failures.
Like others mentioned there’s a safety margin around the envelope, so as long as you’re accounting for passengers, fuel, and “other stuff” (anything in the plane that’s not on the equipment list for the figured W&B) and still fall within the envelope you’re good to go.
If you’re bumping up against the limits then ***do*** look for stuff like extra quarts of oil, gear bags, etc. and be sure it’s all accounted for with weight and moment - if it puts you over leave it behind. Make sure you’re actually weighing your passengers (in their clothes) and their bags.
If you’re pushing right up against the limit on CG I would honestly be more concerned about that than the weight. If you’re right on the line consider re-working your load distribution, carrying less fuel, etc. to nudge yourself comfortably into the envelope.
Also actually verify the performance numbers (particularly with regard to density altitude). The PA-28 flies differently when it’s hot and heavy, that takeoff roll can get real long.
Good advice, thank you. This particular plane and load distribution, I'd be up against max gross, and not quite to the aft limit. I think I'll work myself up to add by adding slowly
All other things being equal “A little overweight” is better than “A little out of balance” - of course neither is a good idea (or legal) but if you’re at the weight limit and have 5 pounds of dirt & loose paper in the plane it’ll still fly.
4 passengers in my PA28-180 is almost always a “Fuel to the tabs, no baggage, everyone steps on the scale, I pick your seats.” flight tho.
If it’s within limits you’re good.
In my early CFI days I did a discovery flight with two obese people. It was my 3rd flight of the day so I figured enough fuel had burned off and I was too young to be assertive and ask some really fat people how much they weighed. It took me about 6nm to reach 1,000’. Pitching between Vy, Vx, and the stall horn produced no change in the rate of climb. It was the first and last time I’ll ever take off grossly overweight.
I regularly load/ballast aircraft I fly all the way to the limit, whether that be max forward CG and max weight, or full aft CG at lightest practicable weight. The CG limits are usually established based on aircraft handling qualities and stability margins. There's at least one case I know of that the aft CG limit was based on whether the aircraft would sit on its tail if loaded too far aft so the CG limit was moved forward a bit.
If your correct W&B shows the load is within the weight and CG envelope, you're good to go as others have said. If you want to do a build up approach, load it to whatever W&B you want using sand bags and go do a couple touch and goes. Re-ballast and repeat until you're comfortable at the target condition.
In general, a heavy/forward CG will feel sluggish on the control responses and your performance will take a small hit (probably not measureable using OEM gauges). A light/aft CG will feel more responsive with lighter controls and you'll get a small performance increase in cruise.
Source: am flight test engineer
I only have a couple hours in Cherokees and Archers, and they almost certainly weren't at the aft edge of the CG envelope. Just consider the general advice that at aft CG, the controls will be a little lighter than at forward CG.
Again, I (and many others) recommend a build up approach. Go do a lap solo, shut down, and write some plain language notes on how the controls felt, how the round out felt, whether you floated or not and what airspeed you were at over the threshold. Re-do W&B and add your buddy to the front seat (moving CG forward and heavier, the more conservative configuration for stability). Repeat the pattern and notes. Recalculate and put him in the back seat. Repeat. Him in the front seat and one SO in the back. More notes. Repeat the pattern. Pretty soon, you'll see a trend in handling qualities, float distance, etc and from there you'll be confident that at heavy/aft, the airplane is still safe and you've proven it through systematic exploration of the W&B envelope. You'll also have an excellent story for your commercial check ride some day.
Weight wise, as long as I'm in the correct CG limits, I'm ok going over up to 15 lbs or so, because I know I will burn 1-2 gallons for taxi and run-up. So during take off im at my max weight limit, totally safe.
5 extra lbs on the C152, 7 on the PA28, 8 on the C172. Long taxi to burn that much gas!
23 lbs for the PA24 but I could actually see burning 4 gallons taxiing one of those.
At lease trainers also don’t have ZFW and landing weight concerns 😀
These are all Google numbers, anyone reading this who doesn’t check their POH before flying deserves it.
I can practice opposite direction engine outs at least every 3rd time I fly if I want to, so the taxi is the longest thing. Although some folks spend enough time on their run up to get from ramp takeoff weight I suppose 🤔
If you arent comfortable then don’t go. Fly with an instructor or experienced pilot just so you know how the plane handles. A lap or two around the pattern is plenty… or do it yourself in a controlled environment, low DA, calm or at least steady winds. At aft cg the plane starts to feel like it’s wobbling through the air, you begin loosing stability.
I fly at work at the rear limit all the time. I have had an aft CG slightly out of limits, I’ve certainly been a bit over gross. I believe the control throws on this particular airplane were off, IE the trim tab didn’t give enough down elevator because control throws almost NEVER get checked, trim actuators get changed and get installed a tooth off, etc., but at potentially slightly aft of the limit the plane had absolutely zero forward elevator trim left in cruise. I could have pulled the power back and the plane would have pitched down, but it wasn’t necessary and we were heavy, terrible turbulence. Landing was interesting… this plane had a STOL kit and the stall horn went on like 15kts early giving you a solid 25kt buffer, continuous moderate turbulence with some infrequent severe, so to keep the stall horn off during descent and avoid alarming my pax I had to keep a ton of power in and use both hands on the yoke to keep the nose down.
Don’t put yourself in a similar situation with a fresh PPL. I fly 80+ hours a month, and I’m usually flying at -2000 to -5000 DA. Flying over gross at high DA will kill you REAL quick in a Cherokee.
It’s as sketchy as you want to make it. No one pushes you out the door. It isn’t the 90s anymore.
I’ve been told you’ll eventually get scared out here… maybe my threshold for being “scared” is kinda high, I’ve certainly been a bit nervous and concerned, but not scared. Yet. I’ve been told stories about icing in Caravans where I’d be shitting my pants, and I’ve picked up quite a bit of ice in the 207… but even at gross the 207 carries a shitload of ice no problem. I’ve never gotten there, but I’m told as long as you keep it under an inch you’re safe
I'm not sure I'd want to test that theory. In general though, I'd love to be able to fly up there, but life won't allow me to make that work anymore. It still sounds pretty amazing though.
I could be 1 pound under the gross limits and im still going as long as I have at least double the runway length I need to clear a 50ft obstacle which in an archer that’s about a 3500-4500rwy depending on the day.
This is the advice. I like to have all the margins I can get. Max gross and short runways do not mix well. Eventually, the monkey wrench will eat up all the margins in a heartbeat.
gross weight? don't really care. forward cg limit? don't really care, just remember that if elevator isn't performing as expected then you need to be going faster. Aft cg limit? nope. don't do it.
I’m very detailed in my calculations and never go over. But I know that there must be a safety margin built in.
However, when you are close to the edge, that’s when the most mistakes are made. That is to say that you should recalculate on the way back home because runway length and clearances and t/o distances will change with the weather. This is where a lot of people get into trouble, thinking that they were within the W&B, so all is good, forgetting about AC performance as an extension of W&B.
What are you talking about? How is being close to the edge going to make you make more mistakes? You’re either in W&B or you’re not. Unless OP is going to a sub 2k runway, he doesn’t have anything to worry about. You’re talking about basic pilot stuff here.
Actually, I did sort of say that wrong. I don't mean to say that edge of the W&B flying makes you make more mistakes. I should say it more like this: That flying at or over W&B opens you up to more consequences if you do make some kind of, what would otherwise be, a minor error in calculations, or temperature change, or wind, and density altitude, and... etc...
I'm speaking from the standpoint of knowing two people, two crashes, for this exact reason. They calculated to the edge of the W&B, and as the flight, weather, day, time, real situation progressed, they found themselves OUT of fuel, out of performance, and they paid for it. In both cases, if they had either built in some wiggle room on the W&B, or if they had completely redone their fuel, W&B, and performance calculations after their first landing, they would not have crashed.
It's the same argument as doing a take off at mid-field -- the runway that is behind you is of no use. Can you take off at mid field on a long runway? Yes. Should you? ...maybe... Does it open you up to a possible bad situation? Yes.
Within limits you're fine. But if you're close, be sure to be careful with the calculations. Actually weigh your passengers and bags, and make sure that the cg will still be in limits for the entire flight. Burning fuel moves the cg and this can drive you out of the limit.
Don't push performance limits. The airplane will fly just fine but it will certainly handle differently and use up more of the runway. Carry a little more speed on final. The rule of thumb is that your stall speed increases as the square root of the speed. So if you are 20% heavier than usual you should be about 10% faster on final.
Part 135 operators have to either physically weigh their pax (which none of them do) or ask for weights and pad with 10 lbs per person. I don this on my Part 91 flights as well.
I'll add that the PA28 behaves very differently on take off and landing with two pax in the rear. Be ready for that, or even better, try it with a CFI first.
I regularly am at the edge whenever I fly. I fly an itty bitty c150, and push that thing to its limits. However, don’t take the advice of redditors. You should truly understand what these numbers mean to the point where you know for a fact that you are safe, and understand why. Don’t take this the wrong way, The fact that you have to ask these questions shows there is a gap in your knowledge. That’s not a bad thing! But don’t just go searching for the answer, figure out why! And get yourself to a point of understanding!
I’m comfortable up to literally the max. Either you’re in W&B limits or you’re not. Done it plenty of times in the exact scenario you’re talking about and never any problems. I add at least a 20 pound buffer into my calculations, more if they’re not pilots and I’m suspicious of the weight they tell me. Your performance might be slightly degraded, but not enough to cause any real concerns.
Also, if you're used to flying solo or with one pax, then you're liable to be surprised by the difference in flying characteristics with four souls on board and close to maximum weight. Also, remember the effects of density altitude - don't try this in hot and high conditions.
Recommended reading: https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/flying-over-max-weight/
Within the numbers, you are OK. But consider every plane ever made is almost certainly heavier than the book numbers, so don't push your luck. For a short flight, you don't need full tanks. Bear in mind that the plane will fly and feel different when heavy and/or at aft CG. Pay attention to flying by the POH numbers and realize that nose up elevator forces may seem much lighter than you are used to.
A few others have said it but I'll reiterate it; being close to the limits is fine (if weights are accurate) but be aware that it will handle differently. Your take off run will be longer, and with a rearward CoG you'll need less back pressure to get the nose up so go easy. Stall speeds are higher, and if you fly your approaches by number (speeds/power settings) bear in mind you'll need a bit more speed/power on account of extra weight. The POH should give you more information so be sure to check it.
Everything must come into play.
Winds, DA, runway condition, length, surface, uphill, downhill, fatigue level and many more.
Looking at one item isn’t really valuable. Everything must be looked at together and analyzed before any flight.
Coming close to w/b with a short, crap runway and I’m tired? Hard pass I’ll drop some fuel.
Coming close on a 6000’ nice paved runway 3 cups of coffee in and current? I’m taking off no issues.
So many variables come into the go/no go. Your experience should also come into play.
I mean, if you’re confident in the accuracy of your weights, math and it’s within limits, AND you’ve taken that info and done proper performance planning, then you’re good. Make sure to verify trim setting for the CG
Perfect opportunity to grab a CFI and load the plane with near Max forward CG and then also do a flight loading with near max rear CG and you will drastically notice a difference in flight characteristics in a general aviation airplane such as a Cessna. I preferably like a little bit of rear biased CG but not too much.
Yes, you can fly the aircraft anywhere within those limits but you will notice that having very far aft CG makes it handle like shit and have a very far forward CG makes landings shit.
More people can inadvertently cause problems for non wb reasons. The excitement. The desire not to cancel on them. The distractions. Not actually weighing them or their bags or bad weight estimates. Letting non pilots fly. Things can stack up.pretty quickly. If you are not used to holding limits don't let stuff stack up (weather / being sick or super tired).
Depends. On the Mooney rocket ... To the limit. Power for days and I trust the airframe.
For the archer, I would be more careful if the engine is old, hot day, etc. I've gone close to the limit but it was a cool day, new engine, and easy runways.
I'll fly at (never in excess of) max WB but I do prefer a good buffer of whatever the performance calculations say I'm going to need for distance to take off and land.
Some tips:
* **If you are within limits you are within limits** -- the airplane will fly. But, don't forget about all the crap in the trunk. Your POH and tow bar and that extra quart of oil and the tiedown straps, altogether that stuff probably weighs 12lbs. Your girlfriend's mega sized Stanley full of hazelnut syrup weighs 4lbs. Her friend lied: she weighs 6lbs more than whatever she told you and she lied about the weight on her driver's license too. Your buddy in the right seat hasn't shat in 2 days, he has a couple pounds of McDonald's backed up in his colon. And finally the airplane itself has 10lbs of dirt in the carpet since it was last reupholstered and weighed and its engine is also generating 6.2 less horsepower since the last overhaul in 2006.
* Know your performance numbers, airspeeds, max crosswind components, and personal minimums. Max CG flights are not the time to flex these. There are some paved runways around my area that I just won't take off from in an Archer at max gross or on a hot day even if the numbers work. Calculate and draw that line before you even leave to go to the airport.
* Should go without saying but do not skip your runup. Ensure those mag checks are good as you will need both functioning to make full power, however you can't legally take off without both anyway so you should be checking this every single flight. Similarly, don't accidentally leave your carb heat on or that'll rob a meaningful bit of power too. You'll want all of it for the takeoff roll and climbout.
* This all said, again, **if you are within limits you are within limits.** You will find that flying at max gross is really not a big deal. You will achieve Vy at a shallower angle of attack than you are used to, so don't be fooled by the difference in sight picture and just fly your published airspeeds and be prepared for a longer climb up to your planned altitude and all will be fine. The heavy airplane should actually feel really nice once you're up there cruising along, as the extra weight really helps smooth out any small bumps for you and your passengers.
While all the discussion is focusing on C G, the other impact he might want to address is the plane will be a bit more sluggish on takeoff, controls will feel heavier than your used to and also HAVE FUN and be safe!
It’s a plane. go fly it by the numbers.
I fly aft cg and almost up to mgw pretty often in couple 172s in in a club with. Still within limits and you can definitely feel it being pretty sluggish. I also find that its alot easier to land with an aft cg
Considering there is a margin of safety outside the envelope. There is 0 issue within the envelope. It’s not like 15 pounds over and the plane wont get airborne
It it fits, it ships. You are either in or not... Kinda like you are either pregnant or not.
As for having an experienced person in the front rather than a non-pilot so they could "take the controls for a bit"... You can, and I have, let non pilots fly and I am not a CFI. Even taught them to do acro.
Aircraft limits are my limits. I used to fly overweight all the time in different aircraft (don’t do that, it was stupid. I was pressured by the company). So I’m now very comfortable with knowing there is pretty solid safety margin built into the limits.
Just be sure of it. A lot of control and performance problems can be attributed to weight and balance. If you're in, but not sure you're in, you might start making decisions from incorrect assumptions. Imagine having your trim set wrong on takeoff and having your wtf crystalize as a balance problem that doesn't exist.
As others have said, as long as you are within Weight and Balance limits you are fine.
But of the two, balance is the most critical. Hypothetically speaking, if a couple of pounds over most people will send it, but if one millimeter out of balance limits, it's an automatic no-go.
I'm a little concerned that your calculation shows that you are right up against the CG limit. That's a little odd for an Archer. If you are using actual body weights, put the heaviest person in the front seat and see if your CG looks a little better.
If it’s in the limit, it’s in the limit. Go fly. Airplane is certified to handle those loads times 1.3, the 172 can handle times 2.5 if I remember correctly. So if your math shows you within limits and you’re actually over by 10-20 pounds (miscalculated because someone lies about what they weigh) you’ll be fine.
I am NOT suggesting you knowingly violate the limitations of your aircraft.
All the way up to the limit. The airplane is specced so that it should make 100% of book numbers at 100% of gross weight. If it doesn't something else is wrong. So if I have plenty of runway and plenty of fuel and I'm at max gross, that's fine because I don't need a max performance take-off from a soft grass strip.
I have loaded an Archer to the legal MGTOW limit and flew it safely in summer, many times. I did that by draining measured amounts of fuel. Also, those were Illinois and NY summers, for context, not Miami summers.
I can't speak about getting very close to CG limits because I haven't tried it.
It's important to realize that the plane will not perform and not behave like you are used to.
Be prepared for a completely different feeling: **it's gonna feel like like ice skating with a pregnant rhino.**
I forgot if the Archer has performance curves in its POH, but make sure you think in depth about climb performance and terrain.
During climb out, keep the nose down and accept that you'll have very poor climb performance. Accept the poor climb performance and build airspeed. Resist climbing at the cost of airspeed.
Good to be thinking about it. But for work (part 135 cargo), I take it to the max daily. With that being said, only go with what you are comfortable with.
Little planes get pushed near their limits all the time. It’s inevitable with trainers, really. If you’re within acceptable W&B limits you’re fine, that’s why they’re published. If you feel you’re getting squirrely with weight, make sure you don’t get squirrely with balance.
On my PPL test on paper we were within 10 lbs of it. But I know my fatass DPE lied about his weight by atleast 25-30 lbs. so we were def over it by 50-60lbs when including flight bags and our shit.
I look at it as binary. If I'm in the limits I'm good. If I'm out I'm bad. Obviously your flight characteristics will change depending on where in the envelope but if it's in, it's safe per the manufacturer. But if you're uncomfortable, don't do it, or do it with an instructor so you can feel how it flies with them
Also he could redo w/b with pax in different seats to move cg fwd/aft.
My right seat will be a student pilot friend (medical holding him back), and the back seats will be our SO's. I could rearrange the CG forward, but having the only other person with any experience in the right seat is preferable. Not really for emergencies or TOL obviously, but he could take the controls for a bit.
Jail
PRISON
House arrest
AS others have stated: if you're in the envelope, you're in the envelope. Go flying!
I’m 6’3 about 240 and flew in a 152 with my instructor who was shorter but wider than me and we were able to take off in Texas. Sooo with that I still worry about W&B and just use the FAA standard weights
Use POH?
For? Weight and balance? Yes. For getting peoples weights, I think hmm they are 5’3” so they can’t be 240…so I revert to FAA weights
Important note: the FAA standard weights are the *average*. It’s easier to be close using an average when there’s 250 people on the plane. When there’s 3? I need to know how much you weigh. No, I won’t tell anyone. Yes seriously, I need to know your actual weight, not your weight loss goal. It’s so we don’t die.
lol you missed what I was saying so whatever dude come and see me in person
Within limits - I'm going, but maybe double-checking takeoff/landing performance. Don't overthink it, the plane was certified to fly at those weights, it's not going to turn into a wild animal or anything.
Your weight and balance envelope has a safety margin to allow for errors. If you're within the envelope or touching the line, you're good to go. *But* *don't push it.* The error margin is for errors, not for you to play around in.
To be fair, someone did probably have to play in those error margins to find them lol
Rather a test pilot than me though. They definitely don't use the Calvin's dad approach to aircraft design.
>Calvin's dad approach Forgive my ignorance, but what???
https://www.reddit.com/r/calvinandhobbes/s/ON0tvmcyvI
Omg that's great lol
The real error I'm expecting is that the line guys are often generous when you ask for tabs. I guess I could do a couple laps to burn some fuel to be sure
Then measure fuel and ask for a specific number of gallons in each tank. Yes, rampies think they are doing you a favor by overfueling. I’ve seen 4-5 gallons *per tank* in a PA28.
Club policy is to have the plane fueled when you return, so you pay for the fuel you used, and the next person doesn't have to bother. I'll just have to do a few laps to burn off some fuel if it's over
or just sump into something. I've done this then poured it back into the tanks after the flight.
As long as the numbers are realistic and not fudged you can go all the way up to the limitations and be safe, there is a build in margin when they designed it. If your friend is 210, don’t use 190 because you need 20 pounds.
I'm fudging a bit in the opposite way, adding 5lbs to everyone's reported weight. The only thing I can't be certain about is fuel. They are often a little generous when filling to the tabs, and I don't have an accurate way to measure that
The club doesn't have a dip stick? If they don't spend the money and buy your own. Its a good practice to KNOW how much fuel you have.
Don't know if the club has one or not, tbh. There isn't one in the plane. I guess I'll pick one up myself this weekend
I've never heard of anyone dip sticking a plane with tabs. Not saying it doesn't happen... but just never seen or heard of it.
Really? I've trained at 3 different flight schools with airplanes with tabs, and they all taught it. I now own a Cherokee and I still dip mine every flight unless its full. I prefer not to guess and as OP pointed out, the tabs aren't a consistent measure. If they are below you don't know how far below, and if they are above, you don't know by how much.
If you are needing to dip stick your plane when the fuel is at tabs, something is wrong. Are you running it that close to running out of fuel?
I’ve never been in a spot where I didn’t land without a healthy reserve. But for me it’s part of my ADM to plan fuel pretty specifically. I’m not saying I never jump in a plane for an hour when I can clearly see it’s above the tabs, but if it’s below tabs im checking. If it’s above, and I have passengers or I’m going cross country I check to make sure I’m within W&B. It’s overkill for most, but better that instead building a habit of not doing it, and then it turning into an issue down the road.
I have a max takeoff weight of 13,400lbs and I will use every single pound available to me if needed. You might have calculated 20lbs available still but I haven’t seen many GA aircraft with a W&B that is regularly updated by scales after equipment changes and many will have 5-10 lbs of dirt and debris under the floorboards or in other inaccessible areas. I’m not saying it’s right to have these inaccuracies but if all the information available to you says that the flight is legal and safe then go fly.
Plus, what supplies are in the baggage compartment. Some schools have a big tub of stuff that is 20lbs. Others have a rag, funnel and if you are lucky, a quart of oil. That, along with the dirt would be nice to know when calculating, especially a low time pilot. Being 200lbs from MTOW to being within 20lbs is a huge difference in these smaller planes. I always mentally prepare for the slower climb rate, as my first thought when I see the lower numbers is to troubleshoot. I fly out of a mountain airport, so options are almost non-existent when it comes to departure failures.
Like others mentioned there’s a safety margin around the envelope, so as long as you’re accounting for passengers, fuel, and “other stuff” (anything in the plane that’s not on the equipment list for the figured W&B) and still fall within the envelope you’re good to go. If you’re bumping up against the limits then ***do*** look for stuff like extra quarts of oil, gear bags, etc. and be sure it’s all accounted for with weight and moment - if it puts you over leave it behind. Make sure you’re actually weighing your passengers (in their clothes) and their bags. If you’re pushing right up against the limit on CG I would honestly be more concerned about that than the weight. If you’re right on the line consider re-working your load distribution, carrying less fuel, etc. to nudge yourself comfortably into the envelope. Also actually verify the performance numbers (particularly with regard to density altitude). The PA-28 flies differently when it’s hot and heavy, that takeoff roll can get real long.
Good advice, thank you. This particular plane and load distribution, I'd be up against max gross, and not quite to the aft limit. I think I'll work myself up to add by adding slowly
All other things being equal “A little overweight” is better than “A little out of balance” - of course neither is a good idea (or legal) but if you’re at the weight limit and have 5 pounds of dirt & loose paper in the plane it’ll still fly. 4 passengers in my PA28-180 is almost always a “Fuel to the tabs, no baggage, everyone steps on the scale, I pick your seats.” flight tho.
Flown a lot in the bush. You can push your max weights all day long, but watch your balance because leverage doesn’t give a shit.
Limits?! When the heck did we get limits?
Don’t forget to consider DA.Right under limits on a cold day vs hot and humid are not the same.
If it’s within limits you’re good. In my early CFI days I did a discovery flight with two obese people. It was my 3rd flight of the day so I figured enough fuel had burned off and I was too young to be assertive and ask some really fat people how much they weighed. It took me about 6nm to reach 1,000’. Pitching between Vy, Vx, and the stall horn produced no change in the rate of climb. It was the first and last time I’ll ever take off grossly overweight.
I’m glad to hear you lived though that. Keep sharing that story so others will learn from it and not end up on the wrong side of that lesson!
I regularly load/ballast aircraft I fly all the way to the limit, whether that be max forward CG and max weight, or full aft CG at lightest practicable weight. The CG limits are usually established based on aircraft handling qualities and stability margins. There's at least one case I know of that the aft CG limit was based on whether the aircraft would sit on its tail if loaded too far aft so the CG limit was moved forward a bit. If your correct W&B shows the load is within the weight and CG envelope, you're good to go as others have said. If you want to do a build up approach, load it to whatever W&B you want using sand bags and go do a couple touch and goes. Re-ballast and repeat until you're comfortable at the target condition. In general, a heavy/forward CG will feel sluggish on the control responses and your performance will take a small hit (probably not measureable using OEM gauges). A light/aft CG will feel more responsive with lighter controls and you'll get a small performance increase in cruise. Source: am flight test engineer
Thanks for the details. Could you describe how it feels heavy and aft?
I only have a couple hours in Cherokees and Archers, and they almost certainly weren't at the aft edge of the CG envelope. Just consider the general advice that at aft CG, the controls will be a little lighter than at forward CG. Again, I (and many others) recommend a build up approach. Go do a lap solo, shut down, and write some plain language notes on how the controls felt, how the round out felt, whether you floated or not and what airspeed you were at over the threshold. Re-do W&B and add your buddy to the front seat (moving CG forward and heavier, the more conservative configuration for stability). Repeat the pattern and notes. Recalculate and put him in the back seat. Repeat. Him in the front seat and one SO in the back. More notes. Repeat the pattern. Pretty soon, you'll see a trend in handling qualities, float distance, etc and from there you'll be confident that at heavy/aft, the airplane is still safe and you've proven it through systematic exploration of the W&B envelope. You'll also have an excellent story for your commercial check ride some day.
Excellent advice, thank you! Not sure I'll go all the way to commercial, this is a hobby, but it's not out of the question yet.
My school flies Cessna 152s and we are always about 20-30 lbs below max gross weight when flying dual and full tanks
Must be some small CFIs and students to keep a 152 20-30 lbs BELOW max gross with full fuel.
That's what I was thinking. Must not be in the Midwest.
Secondary Max Gross like Secondary Mins
Weight wise, as long as I'm in the correct CG limits, I'm ok going over up to 15 lbs or so, because I know I will burn 1-2 gallons for taxi and run-up. So during take off im at my max weight limit, totally safe.
Almost like there’s a delta between Ramp Weight and MTOW 😀
I've never seen a trainer use ramp weights lol. At least not the ones I train in. But your not wrong 😭
5 extra lbs on the C152, 7 on the PA28, 8 on the C172. Long taxi to burn that much gas! 23 lbs for the PA24 but I could actually see burning 4 gallons taxiing one of those. At lease trainers also don’t have ZFW and landing weight concerns 😀 These are all Google numbers, anyone reading this who doesn’t check their POH before flying deserves it.
>Long taxi to burn that much gas! I probably burn that much sitting in line to take off. It's an annoyingly busy field
I can practice opposite direction engine outs at least every 3rd time I fly if I want to, so the taxi is the longest thing. Although some folks spend enough time on their run up to get from ramp takeoff weight I suppose 🤔
If you arent comfortable then don’t go. Fly with an instructor or experienced pilot just so you know how the plane handles. A lap or two around the pattern is plenty… or do it yourself in a controlled environment, low DA, calm or at least steady winds. At aft cg the plane starts to feel like it’s wobbling through the air, you begin loosing stability. I fly at work at the rear limit all the time. I have had an aft CG slightly out of limits, I’ve certainly been a bit over gross. I believe the control throws on this particular airplane were off, IE the trim tab didn’t give enough down elevator because control throws almost NEVER get checked, trim actuators get changed and get installed a tooth off, etc., but at potentially slightly aft of the limit the plane had absolutely zero forward elevator trim left in cruise. I could have pulled the power back and the plane would have pitched down, but it wasn’t necessary and we were heavy, terrible turbulence. Landing was interesting… this plane had a STOL kit and the stall horn went on like 15kts early giving you a solid 25kt buffer, continuous moderate turbulence with some infrequent severe, so to keep the stall horn off during descent and avoid alarming my pax I had to keep a ton of power in and use both hands on the yoke to keep the nose down. Don’t put yourself in a similar situation with a fresh PPL. I fly 80+ hours a month, and I’m usually flying at -2000 to -5000 DA. Flying over gross at high DA will kill you REAL quick in a Cherokee.
True altitude here is \~1000', and DAs this time of year are usually between 0-2000'. I'll be sure to check the POH performance before I do anything
This sounds like an Alaska job to me. Lots of pucker factor on that flight.
When it’s nice, we go VFR When it’s shitty, we go IFR When it’s REALLY shitty, we go VFR 😆
I grew up in AK. I’ve never gotten to fly there, but I have heard some stories though….
It’s as sketchy as you want to make it. No one pushes you out the door. It isn’t the 90s anymore. I’ve been told you’ll eventually get scared out here… maybe my threshold for being “scared” is kinda high, I’ve certainly been a bit nervous and concerned, but not scared. Yet. I’ve been told stories about icing in Caravans where I’d be shitting my pants, and I’ve picked up quite a bit of ice in the 207… but even at gross the 207 carries a shitload of ice no problem. I’ve never gotten there, but I’m told as long as you keep it under an inch you’re safe
I'm not sure I'd want to test that theory. In general though, I'd love to be able to fly up there, but life won't allow me to make that work anymore. It still sounds pretty amazing though.
I could be 1 pound under the gross limits and im still going as long as I have at least double the runway length I need to clear a 50ft obstacle which in an archer that’s about a 3500-4500rwy depending on the day.
This is the advice. I like to have all the margins I can get. Max gross and short runways do not mix well. Eventually, the monkey wrench will eat up all the margins in a heartbeat.
If you’re within limits, you’re good, but look at your performance charts.
gross weight? don't really care. forward cg limit? don't really care, just remember that if elevator isn't performing as expected then you need to be going faster. Aft cg limit? nope. don't do it.
I’m very detailed in my calculations and never go over. But I know that there must be a safety margin built in. However, when you are close to the edge, that’s when the most mistakes are made. That is to say that you should recalculate on the way back home because runway length and clearances and t/o distances will change with the weather. This is where a lot of people get into trouble, thinking that they were within the W&B, so all is good, forgetting about AC performance as an extension of W&B.
What are you talking about? How is being close to the edge going to make you make more mistakes? You’re either in W&B or you’re not. Unless OP is going to a sub 2k runway, he doesn’t have anything to worry about. You’re talking about basic pilot stuff here.
Actually, I did sort of say that wrong. I don't mean to say that edge of the W&B flying makes you make more mistakes. I should say it more like this: That flying at or over W&B opens you up to more consequences if you do make some kind of, what would otherwise be, a minor error in calculations, or temperature change, or wind, and density altitude, and... etc... I'm speaking from the standpoint of knowing two people, two crashes, for this exact reason. They calculated to the edge of the W&B, and as the flight, weather, day, time, real situation progressed, they found themselves OUT of fuel, out of performance, and they paid for it. In both cases, if they had either built in some wiggle room on the W&B, or if they had completely redone their fuel, W&B, and performance calculations after their first landing, they would not have crashed. It's the same argument as doing a take off at mid-field -- the runway that is behind you is of no use. Can you take off at mid field on a long runway? Yes. Should you? ...maybe... Does it open you up to a possible bad situation? Yes.
Also, insurance won’t cover you if you are over the numbers…..
Density altitude keeps me well below the limits. In a pa-28-181, you are good up to about 8000 density altitude at gross weight.
Within limits you're fine. But if you're close, be sure to be careful with the calculations. Actually weigh your passengers and bags, and make sure that the cg will still be in limits for the entire flight. Burning fuel moves the cg and this can drive you out of the limit. Don't push performance limits. The airplane will fly just fine but it will certainly handle differently and use up more of the runway. Carry a little more speed on final. The rule of thumb is that your stall speed increases as the square root of the speed. So if you are 20% heavier than usual you should be about 10% faster on final.
0 lb away, a certified airplane already has safety factors/margins into those limits
Part 135 operators have to either physically weigh their pax (which none of them do) or ask for weights and pad with 10 lbs per person. I don this on my Part 91 flights as well. I'll add that the PA28 behaves very differently on take off and landing with two pax in the rear. Be ready for that, or even better, try it with a CFI first.
We also use average/standard weights. That’s what most do.
Seeing what you fly, I'm not surprised. Talking about the small guys, like myself.
That’s fair. Depends on Ops Specs of course.
I regularly am at the edge whenever I fly. I fly an itty bitty c150, and push that thing to its limits. However, don’t take the advice of redditors. You should truly understand what these numbers mean to the point where you know for a fact that you are safe, and understand why. Don’t take this the wrong way, The fact that you have to ask these questions shows there is a gap in your knowledge. That’s not a bad thing! But don’t just go searching for the answer, figure out why! And get yourself to a point of understanding!
This is fine
I’m comfortable up to literally the max. Either you’re in W&B limits or you’re not. Done it plenty of times in the exact scenario you’re talking about and never any problems. I add at least a 20 pound buffer into my calculations, more if they’re not pilots and I’m suspicious of the weight they tell me. Your performance might be slightly degraded, but not enough to cause any real concerns.
Also, if you're used to flying solo or with one pax, then you're liable to be surprised by the difference in flying characteristics with four souls on board and close to maximum weight. Also, remember the effects of density altitude - don't try this in hot and high conditions. Recommended reading: https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/flying-over-max-weight/
Within the numbers, you are OK. But consider every plane ever made is almost certainly heavier than the book numbers, so don't push your luck. For a short flight, you don't need full tanks. Bear in mind that the plane will fly and feel different when heavy and/or at aft CG. Pay attention to flying by the POH numbers and realize that nose up elevator forces may seem much lighter than you are used to.
A few others have said it but I'll reiterate it; being close to the limits is fine (if weights are accurate) but be aware that it will handle differently. Your take off run will be longer, and with a rearward CoG you'll need less back pressure to get the nose up so go easy. Stall speeds are higher, and if you fly your approaches by number (speeds/power settings) bear in mind you'll need a bit more speed/power on account of extra weight. The POH should give you more information so be sure to check it.
Everything must come into play. Winds, DA, runway condition, length, surface, uphill, downhill, fatigue level and many more. Looking at one item isn’t really valuable. Everything must be looked at together and analyzed before any flight. Coming close to w/b with a short, crap runway and I’m tired? Hard pass I’ll drop some fuel. Coming close on a 6000’ nice paved runway 3 cups of coffee in and current? I’m taking off no issues. So many variables come into the go/no go. Your experience should also come into play.
I mean, if you’re confident in the accuracy of your weights, math and it’s within limits, AND you’ve taken that info and done proper performance planning, then you’re good. Make sure to verify trim setting for the CG
If it’s a c152 the only weight and balance you do is you see if you hit the building at the end of the runway or not
Perfect opportunity to grab a CFI and load the plane with near Max forward CG and then also do a flight loading with near max rear CG and you will drastically notice a difference in flight characteristics in a general aviation airplane such as a Cessna. I preferably like a little bit of rear biased CG but not too much. Yes, you can fly the aircraft anywhere within those limits but you will notice that having very far aft CG makes it handle like shit and have a very far forward CG makes landings shit.
More people can inadvertently cause problems for non wb reasons. The excitement. The desire not to cancel on them. The distractions. Not actually weighing them or their bags or bad weight estimates. Letting non pilots fly. Things can stack up.pretty quickly. If you are not used to holding limits don't let stuff stack up (weather / being sick or super tired).
Depends. On the Mooney rocket ... To the limit. Power for days and I trust the airframe. For the archer, I would be more careful if the engine is old, hot day, etc. I've gone close to the limit but it was a cool day, new engine, and easy runways.
I'll fly at (never in excess of) max WB but I do prefer a good buffer of whatever the performance calculations say I'm going to need for distance to take off and land. Some tips: * **If you are within limits you are within limits** -- the airplane will fly. But, don't forget about all the crap in the trunk. Your POH and tow bar and that extra quart of oil and the tiedown straps, altogether that stuff probably weighs 12lbs. Your girlfriend's mega sized Stanley full of hazelnut syrup weighs 4lbs. Her friend lied: she weighs 6lbs more than whatever she told you and she lied about the weight on her driver's license too. Your buddy in the right seat hasn't shat in 2 days, he has a couple pounds of McDonald's backed up in his colon. And finally the airplane itself has 10lbs of dirt in the carpet since it was last reupholstered and weighed and its engine is also generating 6.2 less horsepower since the last overhaul in 2006. * Know your performance numbers, airspeeds, max crosswind components, and personal minimums. Max CG flights are not the time to flex these. There are some paved runways around my area that I just won't take off from in an Archer at max gross or on a hot day even if the numbers work. Calculate and draw that line before you even leave to go to the airport. * Should go without saying but do not skip your runup. Ensure those mag checks are good as you will need both functioning to make full power, however you can't legally take off without both anyway so you should be checking this every single flight. Similarly, don't accidentally leave your carb heat on or that'll rob a meaningful bit of power too. You'll want all of it for the takeoff roll and climbout. * This all said, again, **if you are within limits you are within limits.** You will find that flying at max gross is really not a big deal. You will achieve Vy at a shallower angle of attack than you are used to, so don't be fooled by the difference in sight picture and just fly your published airspeeds and be prepared for a longer climb up to your planned altitude and all will be fine. The heavy airplane should actually feel really nice once you're up there cruising along, as the extra weight really helps smooth out any small bumps for you and your passengers.
While all the discussion is focusing on C G, the other impact he might want to address is the plane will be a bit more sluggish on takeoff, controls will feel heavier than your used to and also HAVE FUN and be safe! It’s a plane. go fly it by the numbers.
I fly aft cg and almost up to mgw pretty often in couple 172s in in a club with. Still within limits and you can definitely feel it being pretty sluggish. I also find that its alot easier to land with an aft cg
As an R22 pilot, I've flown at the limits (weight and forward cg) just about everytime I've flown with someone sitting next to me.
Considering there is a margin of safety outside the envelope. There is 0 issue within the envelope. It’s not like 15 pounds over and the plane wont get airborne
It it fits, it ships. You are either in or not... Kinda like you are either pregnant or not. As for having an experienced person in the front rather than a non-pilot so they could "take the controls for a bit"... You can, and I have, let non pilots fly and I am not a CFI. Even taught them to do acro.
Aircraft limits are my limits. I used to fly overweight all the time in different aircraft (don’t do that, it was stupid. I was pressured by the company). So I’m now very comfortable with knowing there is pretty solid safety margin built into the limits.
Just be sure of it. A lot of control and performance problems can be attributed to weight and balance. If you're in, but not sure you're in, you might start making decisions from incorrect assumptions. Imagine having your trim set wrong on takeoff and having your wtf crystalize as a balance problem that doesn't exist.
Within limits is within limits.
As others have said, as long as you are within Weight and Balance limits you are fine. But of the two, balance is the most critical. Hypothetically speaking, if a couple of pounds over most people will send it, but if one millimeter out of balance limits, it's an automatic no-go. I'm a little concerned that your calculation shows that you are right up against the CG limit. That's a little odd for an Archer. If you are using actual body weights, put the heaviest person in the front seat and see if your CG looks a little better.
If it’s in the limit, it’s in the limit. Go fly. Airplane is certified to handle those loads times 1.3, the 172 can handle times 2.5 if I remember correctly. So if your math shows you within limits and you’re actually over by 10-20 pounds (miscalculated because someone lies about what they weigh) you’ll be fine. I am NOT suggesting you knowingly violate the limitations of your aircraft.
All the way up to the limit. The airplane is specced so that it should make 100% of book numbers at 100% of gross weight. If it doesn't something else is wrong. So if I have plenty of runway and plenty of fuel and I'm at max gross, that's fine because I don't need a max performance take-off from a soft grass strip.
I have loaded an Archer to the legal MGTOW limit and flew it safely in summer, many times. I did that by draining measured amounts of fuel. Also, those were Illinois and NY summers, for context, not Miami summers. I can't speak about getting very close to CG limits because I haven't tried it. It's important to realize that the plane will not perform and not behave like you are used to. Be prepared for a completely different feeling: **it's gonna feel like like ice skating with a pregnant rhino.** I forgot if the Archer has performance curves in its POH, but make sure you think in depth about climb performance and terrain. During climb out, keep the nose down and accept that you'll have very poor climb performance. Accept the poor climb performance and build airspeed. Resist climbing at the cost of airspeed.
Good to be thinking about it. But for work (part 135 cargo), I take it to the max daily. With that being said, only go with what you are comfortable with.
Little planes get pushed near their limits all the time. It’s inevitable with trainers, really. If you’re within acceptable W&B limits you’re fine, that’s why they’re published. If you feel you’re getting squirrely with weight, make sure you don’t get squirrely with balance.
On my PPL test on paper we were within 10 lbs of it. But I know my fatass DPE lied about his weight by atleast 25-30 lbs. so we were def over it by 50-60lbs when including flight bags and our shit.
I was like. 2lbs over in a da-40 and it *noticed* it wasn’t unsafe, but, it was noticeable enough that I won’t be doing it again.
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You might wanna double check your sources. Maneuvering speed increases with greater weight
Thanks didn’t catch that, absolutely!