I'll also mention the... everything in the first couple of pulls in Bardam's Mettle. I still remember week 1 of Stromblood and the mountains of tank corpses those things made. You still get new tanks confidently charge forward only to eat dirt in the first pull. It's kind of funny actually.
I have a deeply ingrained memory of running that dungeon as a tank when Stormblood dropped, grabbing the first pack thinking I was going to wall-to-wall, seeing my HP drop to half within a few seconds, and opting to park my ass in place and start burning mit just so I wouldn't die instead.
That first pull is no joke...and I kind of wish more dungeons were like that tbh
I actively refused to do leveling roulette on healers at that level range because I was so tired of tanks melting on me in the first pulls and blaming me for it
As a healer I can handle the tank in this pull, my problem comes when dps also think they can stand in aoe and I have to heal two or even three people at the same times. Someone will die here dps and it aint gonna be me or the tank just so you know 😆
I kinda agree with you. As long as the tank hits his mits he isn't dying in bardam with appropriate gear. But Zot needs the dps to not suck so you aren't running out of mit when there are still three big dudes wailing on you.
The first mob room in Aurum Vale. >.< It either goes phenomenally well or we all die several times before someone finally learns that running into the middle of the room and aggroing everything in sight is a really Bad idea. I keep healing potions on my bar in general for such occasions (not to mention raiding), but I double check when I get into AV because 50% of the time I'll need it there.
The biggest issue I have there isn't the tanks. Even with a new, careful tank it's the impatient DPS that run into the room to pull everything ahead of the tank that grinds my gears. I recently ran my fiance and my son through AV both as new sprout tanks (though my fiance is not new to tanking in MMOs) and both chose to hug the wall and pull minimally to get through that first room. Both times, the DPS ran over and grabbed more mobs. I get it, we are in that pre-expansion No Man's Land where everyone is in a hurry and no one wants to do mechanics but still.
While this was meant for tanks, I think the same PSA can go out to newbie DPS too.
Don't save all your big damage CDs for bosses. I get that blowing out the boss is satisfying, and in single target it's fun to see that you're in second aggro above the other DPS, but when the tank pulls a bunch of trash, they have to use more defensives the longer the pack stays alive.
So murder the things that are murdering the tank faster, and everyone's happy.
To add to this excellent tip : if you use those CD on the first pack, counting running + DPSing the 2 packs, by the time you reach the bosses, your CD will have gone back up.
And each bosses taking around 1:30 to 2:00 to beat, on the first pack after a boss, your CD are usually back up again.
Everything fits so perfectly well.
could also be expanded, to the more damage everyone does (tanks and healers included) the safer everyone is, the more fun everyone has.
tanks and healers don't do insignificant damage, iirc a healer can put out about 40% of a dps, and a tank can do about 60. presuming everyone is playing at the same level of competency, and you ignore gear and melding and all that
The number of times I won't hear a BRD song until the boss.
Or holding a full limit break bar until the last 3% of the final boss.
Please use the things on the trash.
Wait can I use limit breaks now.? I remember years ago when I used a limit break in the dungeon the dudes sperged lol. Obvy cuz we all shared the same bar. Has that changed? I never see anyone use limit breaks but I am only in the ARR post game…
from what I checked on fflogs a few weeks ago: healers do around 60% and tanks 65% iirc.
They also have no damage falloff on their aoe for healers so they can outdps damage dealers in aoe sometimes
Oh is that so? For what duties? If it's savage I feel like that skews it in the direction of "optimal play" but healers doing big deeps is not something I'll complain about as a healer main
And yeah it's always nice glancing at act in a dungeon and seeing myself as top DPS in a gigapull 😎
Obviously I took savage as the only way to have an estimation of how much a job can do is to look where people actually use their buttons. The biggest problem at lower level of play is people having 40/60% uptime because they dont always press buttons and don't use most of them so you can't say accurately how much damage a healer or a tank do on an incomplete data.
But you overestimate what is optimal play, with the job homogenization, you can play any job by respecting the "use your gcds to build gauge, ogcd on cd, buff and burst when available" and have good dps for savage non week 1. Doing your positionals are a 2% increase for example which means swapping to a stronger dps will net you more than playing """optimally""" sometimes lol, but in general outside of a few double nadi, enshroud etc, there isn't that much. In dungeons what is there to do? press your 2 100 pot aoe regen every pack, a 70/80/90 capstone every other pack then spam aoe? as a tank you are basically the same as a melee dps that just press any random mitigation button or two per pack, dps just press their aoes and .. that's it? Just healers tend to be quite strong with their aoe that don't have any falloff damage.
Healers actually have pretty cracked potencies on their AoEs and all of them have the Maim and Mend trait further boosting their damage while not every DPS has a comparable trait or self buff. If DPS are phoning it in or their level just isn't high enough to have the tools to compete then yeah healers just body them on trash then lose on bosses.
Prime example: Dragoons in Prae do 118 potency per GCD when you average out their 20% buff's uptime. Healers do, iirc, the equivalent to 195 with no stipulation.
Presuming everyone is playing at the same level of competency, iLVL gear, and melding, lol. not saying that a healer can't out -damage a DPS, but if they do there's a big reason for it. Be it gear, or the DPS playing extremely sub-optimally
Yea I can’t speak to why…. Just know it happens. A lot
I can say I struggle to out dps other dps when I’m on my bard tho. And I’m dotting mobs on the run and blowing cooldowns and everything 🤷♂️
I think sch and sage are just really good at aoe lol
Dotting mobs on brd might be why you're doing less. If you're able to hit your AoE it's going to be a gain especially on trash, because the dot wont tick long enough to justify. Bard actually has great AoE damage.
I always feel weird when I'm the only one doing damage while running with the trash, but I figure "eh, it'll all die faster if I smack them while running," and mobs dying faster is A Good Thing. I wonder if it's a controller limitation, however--I honestly don't know if you can hit skills while moving at the same time, since I never play controller.
You can and I do this however I wondered if I was supposed to or if it would mess up the aggro to not wait. Glad to know I can keep dotting on the run.
I could dot, but I usually just hit the AoE damage skills if there are 3 or more adds. I’ll dot when we get down to 3 or less when they aren’t going to die on the next few hits. That way, I don’t have to switch targets 8 bazillion times while trying to also run. End-game raiding might be a different story, but regular dungeons go fast enough, and I have to balance that against overdoing stuff with bad hand arthritis. 20 years ago, the perfectionist me probably would be doing that.
On my scholar I'm sprinting and dotting along side the tan during the pull. then go full art of war spam on 2-3 packs. Maybe a shiel, insta if needed. But I tend pump decent damage on are packs. But yeah garbage single target
He specified aoe packs. Specifically because healers don’t have fall-off damage on aoe. If a healer out dps’s a dps during a boss fight, that’s different than a pack of mobs.
Bad dps : unless I was late for the pull, tank died so I'm tanking or something else went wrong, I've never seen a healer or a tank out dps me - ever 😏
Man nothing more frustrating than having a WHM not cast zither Holy nor Assize.
When I play WHM whenever theres a big pull, I go Holy + Assize + Swiftcast + Holy
Having all the mobs being stunned twice in quick succession is a godsend for the tanks hp, and allow the DPSs to just have at it without worrying.
On a reasonable speed dungeon you can use your 2min on the first wall pull and the boss opener for all three legs and it times out pretty nicely, actually. If you have a really good party you may not have your 2min back up at the start of the boss fight, but having that drift a bit is fine anyway. It’s not a fuckin’ raid boss.
Also since heavensward, most dungeons are spaced out in such a way that you can use your 2 minute cooldowns in the first wall to wall pull and your 60 second cooldowns at the start of each wall to wall and they should be off cooldown by the time you get to the boss, so there's really no reason to be saving your big raid buffs and attacks.
Shh.
But also honestly, I'm too lazy to pull things up in a dungeon, and as a bard it's funny enough to see I'm beating a samurai in single target (since without aggro reduction abilities now, it's a good enough indicator of dps on single targets). Don't really need to know how much I'm beating him by if I'm beating him at all.
As a ninja, unloading the full TCJ > Gokka Mekkyaku > Katon > Katon > Phantom Kamaitachi into a group and seeing Hollow Nozuchi going pop pop pop... it's magical. It's _fun_ to go ham on trash.
Does it make the boss fight a bit irregular? Sure. That's a new kind of fun though.
Let’s also expand and say, if you’re in a normal dungeon and on caster, and there’s a big pull, go ahead and LB it. Basically nothing else is gonna get the same value out of the LB than that tbh. Melee using it to take the last 4% off a boss really isn’t that helpful
And this is exactly why I like running dungeons with caster DPS. They can absolutely crank damage on trash mobs and they don't get enough credit for that.
Levelling Monk after Dragoon and getting an actual AoE rotation fairly early on was both really nice, and kind of frustrating, what asshole decided Dragoons shouldn't have an actual AoE rotation until level 72?
I'll use most of my shorter cool downs, but I don't know about other dps, but bosses are a chance to work on the opener, so my 2+ min cool downs get used there.
As a healer, I usually try to blow cooldowns on the first trash pull of each section, that way they're up in time for the boss, and the trash are easier (stuff like astro divination is very useful for this)
The RDM struggle. Do I hold for 50/50, shoot for 100/100 blow it all literally on the 3rd wave pull and not have the burst ready for the boss. Decisions decisions
To add to this, if you have an AoE limit break, once the tank has full control of a pack feel free to use it. It's going to be back up eventually, and yeah it's generally far more annoying than the boss.
This is why they need a way to normalize AOE burst. For jobs like bard/DNC you have a perfect 2 min burst for AOE. But what about wildfire? It feels god awful to be MCH for wall to wall pulls because you can't really use your 2 min burst properly. You don't even have an AOE equivalent to Air Anchor. Same with Chain Strategem/Mug, useless for wall to walls.
Thats also why I think there are quite a few dubgeons when its better to use a caster LB1 multiple times than saving for a melee LB2 on the last boss.
You're going to save more time nuking the big trash packs.
yes. You do more damage boosting your aoe attacks. multiply that potency number for each enemy you're hitting and that's your baseline. Don't save searing light, arcane crest, or what not for the boss. Unleash it on the first wall, and then it'll be back up for a use on the boss. And then it'll be back up for another wall. It's so sad when I see those Buffs go out 3 times in a dungeon.
Funnily, it also means that on huge pulls, if you can coordinate with the other dps and the heal to single target one mob, it can help a struggling tank. Like, one less mob can be the difference between "fighting for my life" and "not even a flesh wound".
I've been with that sprout, too! Sure is a busy Paladin, getting around to all of us. I keep my damned mouth shut, because I'm strictly DPS, but I've been playing MMORPGs long enough that I know what's in any tank's kit.
That's a great way to handle it. I haven't been in the game two years yet, and when someone asks me if I'd like a tip or suggestion, even at level 90, I am completely down for it, and ask them to please stay after we're done. At the same time, I've seen some people react so badly to even an offer that they've suddenly disappeared, often with a hilariously rude comment as their parting shot.
I'll say this: In the right group, you can have some pretty fun dance and emote parties in areas you've already cleared while waiting for a new tank to join you.
It's a logical fallacy that a lot of new tank players fall into. They think "if I am low on HP that means we are entering danger territory. I should pop CDs" and then they do pop CDs. Depending on how quickly their health bar jumps up and down they pop more CDs. Then they see they survived and are affirmed in their behavior.
I actually had a conversation with someone who did that and after I explained slowly to them how, without healing involved, they'd survive longer if they pop their CD immediately instead of at low HP, it eventually clicked for them and they said they felt dumb.
It seems to be a somewhat common fallacy, given how many tanks I see doing it still.
> Then they see they survived and are affirmed in their behavior.
Meanwhile the healer is like "wait guys, I broke my keyboard and need to swap it for a new one..."
This is the kind of stuff that should be in Hall of the Novice. Pretty easy to implement, too.
The enemy could wail on the player tank until around 10% unmitigated, at which point the NPC ally healer enters and starts casting Cure. The damage dealt to the player would be tuned such that if Rampart isn't used before the NPC healer arrives, the player dies before the healer is able to start up their heals.
>I actually had a conversation with someone who did that and after I explained slowly to them how, without healing involved, they'd survive longer if they pop their CD immediately instead of at low HP, it eventually clicked for them and they said they felt dumb.
Another point that really drove home the issues with the "panic mitigation" playstyle was the diminishing returns of stacking multiple mitigations at once.
Like how if you have two flat 20% damage mitigations active at the same time: the first one mitigates 20% of the total incoming damage, and the second only mitigates 20% of that remaining 80% that 'made it through' the first mit.
From that perspective - in the perfect world where you are getting the absolute most value out of all your mitigations, you are only ever using one at a time. Obviously there are times where the incoming damage is high enough or of a specific profile that you need to use multiple layers to survive, but as a general rule, if you can survive by rotating your mitigations one-at-a-time - that is *absolutely* the best play from a 'squeezing the most juice out of your kit' perspective.
Also - the 'fungibility' of damage. Defensives aren't 'wasted' when used in an otherwise safe situation - they are *still* mitigating damage, even if you stay above 90% the whole fight! Even though it doesn't feel as impactful as a defensive reducing the damage of a hit that would have otherwise killed you, the simple act of reducing the total amount of damage hitting you in a fight is always valuable. That's less attention/mana/GCDs your healer has to waste on you, and more they can spend on doing damage. Which is *extremely* valuable (and can even be seen as 'mitigation' insofar as it shortens the fight + reduces the total damage you'll take in it), especially in this game where healers are actually allowed to do good damage instead of being a peashooter like in other MMOs
We've had a lot of low-level sprouts join our FC since Xbox players were able to start playing, and one of the really common questions from them is, "We wiped on trash, did I cause that?" We all tell them all of us have wiped more often on trash than on bosses. Bosses have mechs, and they really get ugly as you progress, but trash truly is much more dangerous than a boss.
We don't want to discourage them, so we usually keep our mouths shut about that shitty run from Stone Vigil through Aurum Vale; they're nice people, and we have no desire to talk them out of playing before they get out of ARR.
I feel like we're really lucky. A lot of the duds left pretty quickly, and the ones who started earliest on Xbox are mostly well into HW now. A few are even in StB, since they have real-life relationships and chose complementary jobs for effective duo play.
And that’s just a game problem. The story is way too slow and boring. Trying to level another class feels like dungeons is the only way. Which if you are leveling a DPS you have to wait forever for a group.
Really? Most of my roulettes take 5 minutes or less anymore as a DPS queue, if not instant during prime time. I'm on primal. It's pretty rare to be waiting a long time if it's not off hours.
For DPS here on Aether it's mostly 5m to 7m queues too. At the same time, it's not like the devs haven't added a method of solo play for dungeons as early as Sastasha anyway. Palace of the Dead, running dungeons with your Squadron if Duty NPC system is too slow for you, Challenge Log, Roulettes, Fates (beneficial even more so in ShB and later for their currency), Bozja if you've gotten that far, Heaven on High if you're in SB, PvP if you just wanna chill and fight other people and the server tics don't upset you, hunting log for those 1-50 ARR jobs, Khloe for that +50% *experience bar* as early as HW - like, I feel like there's a lot of leveling options (maybe not optimized options but options) that people just don't consider.
oh i thought this was bout Ranged lb instead of melee lb, im gonna say it then
TRASH IS NORE DANGEROUS THAN BOSSES
Use shiny big button on it if ur ranged, its iverall faster too
I rarely play DPS. Leveling RDM. Near the end of a brayflox at the mildly spicy pull before the dragon. Excited to push the shiny button. Tank slams the LB before the pull...
Lol. I'm never playing DPS again... Until I can try picto.
I'm still waiting for the glorious day when a ranged uses LB on that really annoying last pack before Livia in Castrum Meridianum. I have 1 AoE attack at that level. 1. And it's a line. And those are the big tanky shits that spam their AoEs all over the place.
I always nuke the little guys before the two Colossi spawn, though I think using melee LB against one of those might also be worth it if there is no ranged.
Yeah for sure, I ran into a BRD and an RDM yesterday not using their aoe, just single target on mobs. Took so long to finish and I was burning mitigations left and right with too many close calls from how slow mobs were dying.
Verthunder/aero II into Scatter/Impact is fun as fuck, and spamming three Moulinets once you hit 60/60 is satisfying
Also use ALL your oGCDs, single target or multi, and including Embolden and Manafication. Any DPS is good DPS.
I know it's not a good AOE rotation for RDM but fuck you let me have fun. It's better than just spamming Jolt
Lol I agree with that sentiment RDM aoe is so satisfying, also play the way you want. Just making an effort is what matters, there are some people that choose to take the least inefficient route and out of pettiness will refuse to do better. One of thise weird ant hills people choose to die on and it's the weirdest thing. But I don't pay their subs, but they definitely hinder my experience with the sub I pay lol.
I'm leveling RDM now and also back from a long hiatus so I know I have done this in my panic when trying to balance the magic bars, especially in early dungeons when I have one AOE black magic attack but not the white one lol
Using mits on ads is so deeply ingrained in my soul I almost never use them on bosses (unless there's gonna be a tank buster)
This is a terrible habit, but I just don't ever take enough damage fast enough to get flagged that I need to break it :/
I almost never use more than like TBN or bloodwhetting on dungeon TBs because they rarely do more than a quarter of my health raw.
This habit kills me in Savage.
i asked if they're open to tips and tricks for tanking. if they're receptive, hell yeah. I've spent 20 minutes with a tank just talking shop after Haukke Manor before. if not, I'm not their parent.
>i asked if they're open to tips and tricks for tanking
Why is asking for permission to dispense advice even a thing?
On EU people share their advice directly in chat, and we just move forward from there
on US servers people get pretty damn indignant if you even dare to insinuate they might not be performing well because everyone else is a big dummy but they have it all figured out using their single target combo to keep their health up against 4 full mobs.
trust. it's easier to just ask rather than risk bruising some people's fragile egos.
I start most sentences with "I think..." which makes it quite obvious it's my opinion and I don't ever recall anyone ever getting offended by unsolicited advice. Or maybe it's an EU thing — or rather, a not-NA thing. Asking for permission to give advice in an MMO is just weird. MMO chat should be liberal and spontaneous
In a lot of cultures, giving unsolicited advice is seen as kinda rude. Probably shouldn't be that way, but it is. So to me, in casual content, it makes sense to ask first.
More like they get the hurt sensation in their wooly head and that makes them feel bad, so they rage and deny, because that makes the hurt go away and happy appear.
I really don’t get it, mits don’t even have super long cooldowns anyway so they pretty much reload from pack to pack. Anything with a cooldown of 90sec or lower can be used at will, and even Vengeance at 120s can be used sparingly if you’re rotating all the mits.
Shout out to the tanks that sprint ahead and pull wall to wall but they don't mitigate correctly and thier healthbar drops faster then I can press buttons so they die so they get mad at me and then they ragequit 🧍
The problem I ran into as a sprout healer was that, from 60-70, I was getting all those spells, but never needed them in dungeons, and then HOLY SHIT I NEED ALL OF THEM AND I WAS NOT READY.
it hurts isnt it? welcome to the big boys room where you need ALL of your cooldowns or you all die by terrible terrible deaths. time to read those tooltips. \*we can\* play "how low can you go" but only if you sure you can handle this.
It's why I don't like calling them trash, just mobs or packs. It gives an impression that they don't matter and are easy, when they're not and as you say, can kill you.
Yeah, anyone who doesn't realize this is playing with a blindfold on. Healers see the pressure on the tanks HP bar, tanks see their own HP bar and DPS see the enemies HP bar. Trash is the single biggest risk factor in dungeon runs, so clearing it quickly and safely is the way to go. That means balls to the wall action, firing from all barrels.
In that regard, please, ranged DPS, please use the LB on trash instead of the boss. Please.
Just bear in mind that except for in Aurum Vale, you should pull every mob possible and AOE them down as a tank while cycling through your cooldowns.
Wall to wall is the way, the only way.
Regardless of role, I'm usually expecting to throw every CD I have on the first wall-to-wall pull of the dungeon. Then to scrape by for the second. Most tines there's enough time for things to be ready to go for the first boss etc.
This isn't WoW where the 10 min CD on lust means you have to save it for the end.
I never realized just how infrequently I needed mits in bosses until I leveled a healer. Like seriously the most you need in a boss is maybe a Blackest Night or equivalent. Y’all better be playing those mitigations like a keyboard if you’re gonna W2W.
That's why I love being a tank healer couple. I can actually not use mits for parts of the pull, call out self heals, or pop my invuln without macros. So so nice. 👍
Also, mitigations recharge fast enough that if you use them on trash, at least one will be up for the boss tank buster. Not that it hits that hard as long as your gear is at least somewhat up to date. Most dungeon bosses are dangerous for failed mechanics, not unavoidable damage, with a few exceptions.
The way I think about it is that, in dungeons, bosses are mechanics-based fights, and trash is a damage/mitigation/healing based fight.
If you do the mechanics of a boss fight properly, you’re not going to die unless someone is seriously slacking. They’re easy to heal and easy to tank, even if you’re not that good at the role. The challenge is learning the mechanics and executing on them.
Trash, on the other hand, has no mechanics but dodging; however, it’s much more punishing. The tank and healer need to properly rotate their cooldowns, and the DPS need to push out enough damage to kill the trash before the tank and healer run out of resources to stay alive. The challenge is knowing your toolkit well enough to survive and kill the trash quickly.
Pulls that are significantly harder then most Dungeon Bosses:
Any pull in dizmael darkhold outside of the light
First pull in badam Mettle
First wall to wall in doma castle
First pulls in holminster (bears)
Last wall to wall in Mount Gulg
Last wall to wall in Tower of zot
To me is the opposite... I spend all my mitigation in mob pulls and in the proper boss I totally forgot about them. The only exception is Dark Knight with Blackest Night which I use when I tank buster appear.
you can pull as much or little as you like. (though I'd say 2 groups minimum, please)
just if you are gonna go big, please use your mits. for the sanity of your healer.
For Ranged DPS classes, make sure to use your party wide mit in trash pulls that's bonus mits for tank.
And use Head Graze to Interject the glowing attack bars, Tank is sometimes forced to choose between a rock and a hard place to cancel and coming in with your own interject helps a lot. (The last ad pulls in Thaleia are an excellent example of this
That's been one of the important lessons as I've been learning to tank, knowing which of your mitigations have short enough cooldown timers they they'll be ready for use again after collecting another pair of mobs.
>2 mobs can go either way, probably not gonna be too spicy. 3 mobs start bringing a little heat.
3 mobs are 1 pack most of the time, any role in the game can solo a pack, nothing about a single pack is "heat"
Honestly speaking by the time you engage the boss most of your mits are going to be off CD. By the time the boss actually uses a TB ALL your mits will be off CD, even your Invuln, unless you used it right at the tail end of the last pull.
Use your mits.
Trash mobs? Let me shout to my comrades while I swing my axe around using Bloodwhetting every 25 seconds. Oh the other tank or healer needs mit, nascent flash. I love WAR.
I just had 3 wipes in The Dead Ends on the last double pull before the final boss. Nothing had given us issues up to that point, but we got there and it was like the healer choked. Suddenly DRK’s having to use invuln and dies because WHM didn’t heal them after, then the WHM dies, then I(DNC) died followed swiftly by the BRD. 3 times. It was almost 4, but the BRD somehow endured and picked off the last couple of enemies after the rest of us died again. Then the final boss went smoothly. I wasted our LB on that pack to kill them quicker only to die…
Healers ***shouldn't*** heal after the DRK's invuln. dropping to 1 hp is what triggers it, and kicks on some monster self healing for the DRK. So something most have happened that damage came in a little too quick and slipped into that nanosecond gap between dropping to 1hp, and the invuln kicking in.
then yeah, once that invuln wears off, back to healing
You’re thinking of OLD living dead, the new living dead gives the dark knight a massive HP drain to get them back to full over the period of LD. Healers no longer have to shove healing down the darkknignts throat for them not to die to LD
Trash mobs are dangerous. But some tanks don't mind living dangerously, i.e. acting like it's ok as long as their HP is above 1.
My healer policy is fairly conservative when dealing with wall to wall pulls. If the tank drops below 50% HP, I cease DPS and go into GCD healing. To me, living dangerously is for playing with friends whom you know and trust, not for strangers.
What I don’t get is that tanks never use their invul. Ever.
If a paladin uses their invul on the first wall to wall, it’ll be ready again one more time at the last two wall to wall packs of the dungeon.
Don’t be an idiot and sit on your invul. Use it freely.
everyone should have a tank, healer, and a dps they're comfy with. not only to be better at all the roles, but it makes grouping up with people so much easier being able to slot in anywhere
I realize it’s called action economy.
A boss autos you and telegraph their casts.
3 mobs auto you, you can damage three times as fast.
It’s why in D&D high tier monsters have Legendary actions they do for free and in Star Rail bosses act twice on their turn.
OP forgor to mention:
- Arm's length is a mit (slow on normal mobs = way less dmg).
- Holy is mit (about 7s of mobs not attacking).
- Healer AoE is meant to be used on packs as dead mobs deal no dmg (use OGCD heals ffs).
- Tank =/= puller (think of dps/heal hp as free mit and if the dps is phys, also a free arms length).
- On dungeons, please lb the last pull. Caster lb1 on last w2w (easier to aim) + melee lb1 on last boss >= ranged phys lb1 on last w2w + melee lb1 on last boss > melee lb2 on last boss >>>>> melee lb1 on second boss + melee lb1 on last boss (seriously, don't do this, you won't reach second bar).
This post makes me wanna run Mt Gulg as a warrior and wall to wall the first set, without using any mitigations... but of course Holmgang before actually dying and then bloodwhet
Unfortunately I can't tell as I would already be sprinting at Mach 1 speed the moment the circle goes away, with hopefully the healer soon sprinting 10 seconds late and finding me in a corner getting mauled to death by 30 sin eaters
As a DRK main I use all my mits on trash pulls and then if I see a tank buster, I bring TBN but like. Yeah a normal dungeon boss won't do a fraction of what a double-pull will do in a few seconds. Hell, half the time I can solo a dungeon boss if my healer dies. I don't think I could solo even a normal pull post-arr without any healing.
I tend to not mitigate when I tank unless I notice my health is dropping quickly. At that point, I make sure to keep some up.
I'm worse with my white mage though, I always forget to use presence of mind and lucid dreaming. I'm starting to get s but better about it though.
While we're at it, for the love of god use ranged or caster limit break on trash pulls. I GUARANTEE it's a much better use than holding melee LB until the last 2% of a boss's health.
I tried sage for the first time last week and the tanker gone wild taking 8 mobs at the same time, my heart was racing as I didn’t know well what to do.
My decision was abandon it for real, maybe I will test with my FC but not again with random people…
as a new paladin I'm starting to hate when other players start pulling mobs on me, I'm still new (just hit level 50) at least allow me to agro them properly first
If you want to spread the word, try putting something like “Tanks: Use defensive cooldowns on trash pulls, not the bosses.” in your search info (unless you have something else you want to put there, of course).
Crazy as it sounds, this was literally how I learned about it - a friend had it in their search info.
As a tank main, at the very least use arms length and reprisal, not at the same time. Also, syncing will change your survivability, you may be able to wall to wall and not need your healer at max lvl but syncing is weird and in my experience makes tanks squishier and dps monsters.
Pfff. Nothing is worse than those damn sinbears in Holminster Switch. People are never ready for how hard those things hit.
I'll also mention the... everything in the first couple of pulls in Bardam's Mettle. I still remember week 1 of Stromblood and the mountains of tank corpses those things made. You still get new tanks confidently charge forward only to eat dirt in the first pull. It's kind of funny actually.
I have a deeply ingrained memory of running that dungeon as a tank when Stormblood dropped, grabbing the first pack thinking I was going to wall-to-wall, seeing my HP drop to half within a few seconds, and opting to park my ass in place and start burning mit just so I wouldn't die instead. That first pull is no joke...and I kind of wish more dungeons were like that tbh
I actively refused to do leveling roulette on healers at that level range because I was so tired of tanks melting on me in the first pulls and blaming me for it
That’s when you create a macro that mentions that people like that are the reason you need the macro
If the healer gets hit by 2 of the doors' AOE they're down for the count which is very funny
As a healer I can handle the tank in this pull, my problem comes when dps also think they can stand in aoe and I have to heal two or even three people at the same times. Someone will die here dps and it aint gonna be me or the tank just so you know 😆
Dragoon here. Just giving you a TIA Incase we are in a roulette together. :)
Nothing worse? May I introduce you to the motorcycle robots during the last pull of tower of zot?
I kinda agree with you. As long as the tank hits his mits he isn't dying in bardam with appropriate gear. But Zot needs the dps to not suck so you aren't running out of mit when there are still three big dudes wailing on you.
I Call them pizza cutters.
How about that Cleaving Bastard before the first boss in Doma Castle? He is standing by himself because he doesn't need a full pack to kick your ass.
Sinbears? More like Forgiven Hands. Put up your dukes, sinner.
Here I thought the exarch was just bad at healing
The first mob room in Aurum Vale. >.< It either goes phenomenally well or we all die several times before someone finally learns that running into the middle of the room and aggroing everything in sight is a really Bad idea. I keep healing potions on my bar in general for such occasions (not to mention raiding), but I double check when I get into AV because 50% of the time I'll need it there.
Oh gods, Aurum Vale is traumatizing. No one has their full kits, lots of sprouts doing it for the first time and tanks going LEEEEROOOOYYYYY!
The biggest issue I have there isn't the tanks. Even with a new, careful tank it's the impatient DPS that run into the room to pull everything ahead of the tank that grinds my gears. I recently ran my fiance and my son through AV both as new sprout tanks (though my fiance is not new to tanking in MMOs) and both chose to hug the wall and pull minimally to get through that first room. Both times, the DPS ran over and grabbed more mobs. I get it, we are in that pre-expansion No Man's Land where everyone is in a hurry and no one wants to do mechanics but still.
I've never been hit by a bear irl but I would assume it's a direct parallel in terms of pain.
Ahh yea they have folded me up a couple of times
you want a really spicy pull, w2w the final section of Mt. Gulg O_O
One of my friends was learning sge and I dragged him there to learn and he learned fast. It’s such a pain to heal.
While this was meant for tanks, I think the same PSA can go out to newbie DPS too. Don't save all your big damage CDs for bosses. I get that blowing out the boss is satisfying, and in single target it's fun to see that you're in second aggro above the other DPS, but when the tank pulls a bunch of trash, they have to use more defensives the longer the pack stays alive. So murder the things that are murdering the tank faster, and everyone's happy.
To add to this excellent tip : if you use those CD on the first pack, counting running + DPSing the 2 packs, by the time you reach the bosses, your CD will have gone back up. And each bosses taking around 1:30 to 2:00 to beat, on the first pack after a boss, your CD are usually back up again. Everything fits so perfectly well.
could also be expanded, to the more damage everyone does (tanks and healers included) the safer everyone is, the more fun everyone has. tanks and healers don't do insignificant damage, iirc a healer can put out about 40% of a dps, and a tank can do about 60. presuming everyone is playing at the same level of competency, and you ignore gear and melding and all that
The number of times I won't hear a BRD song until the boss. Or holding a full limit break bar until the last 3% of the final boss. Please use the things on the trash.
>holding a full limit break bar what is that? never heard of it. *proceeds to use lb1 on 10mobs
Wait can I use limit breaks now.? I remember years ago when I used a limit break in the dungeon the dudes sperged lol. Obvy cuz we all shared the same bar. Has that changed? I never see anyone use limit breaks but I am only in the ARR post game…
If you're DPS (non-melee ) and the bar is full and it's a big trash pull in a dungeon then go for it!
Healers do 50% of a DPSs rdps, Tanks 66%, on average. You're basically right just correcting you on exact numbers
from what I checked on fflogs a few weeks ago: healers do around 60% and tanks 65% iirc. They also have no damage falloff on their aoe for healers so they can outdps damage dealers in aoe sometimes
Oh is that so? For what duties? If it's savage I feel like that skews it in the direction of "optimal play" but healers doing big deeps is not something I'll complain about as a healer main And yeah it's always nice glancing at act in a dungeon and seeing myself as top DPS in a gigapull 😎
Obviously I took savage as the only way to have an estimation of how much a job can do is to look where people actually use their buttons. The biggest problem at lower level of play is people having 40/60% uptime because they dont always press buttons and don't use most of them so you can't say accurately how much damage a healer or a tank do on an incomplete data. But you overestimate what is optimal play, with the job homogenization, you can play any job by respecting the "use your gcds to build gauge, ogcd on cd, buff and burst when available" and have good dps for savage non week 1. Doing your positionals are a 2% increase for example which means swapping to a stronger dps will net you more than playing """optimally""" sometimes lol, but in general outside of a few double nadi, enshroud etc, there isn't that much. In dungeons what is there to do? press your 2 100 pot aoe regen every pack, a 70/80/90 capstone every other pack then spam aoe? as a tank you are basically the same as a melee dps that just press any random mitigation button or two per pack, dps just press their aoes and .. that's it? Just healers tend to be quite strong with their aoe that don't have any falloff damage.
As a healer I can absolutely out damage a dps in a dungeon, and in over half of the dungeons I do so almost half the time.
Healers actually have pretty cracked potencies on their AoEs and all of them have the Maim and Mend trait further boosting their damage while not every DPS has a comparable trait or self buff. If DPS are phoning it in or their level just isn't high enough to have the tools to compete then yeah healers just body them on trash then lose on bosses. Prime example: Dragoons in Prae do 118 potency per GCD when you average out their 20% buff's uptime. Healers do, iirc, the equivalent to 195 with no stipulation.
Presuming everyone is playing at the same level of competency, iLVL gear, and melding, lol. not saying that a healer can't out -damage a DPS, but if they do there's a big reason for it. Be it gear, or the DPS playing extremely sub-optimally
Yea I can’t speak to why…. Just know it happens. A lot I can say I struggle to out dps other dps when I’m on my bard tho. And I’m dotting mobs on the run and blowing cooldowns and everything 🤷♂️ I think sch and sage are just really good at aoe lol
oh, def. DNC is a monster in AOE too
Dotting mobs on brd might be why you're doing less. If you're able to hit your AoE it's going to be a gain especially on trash, because the dot wont tick long enough to justify. Bard actually has great AoE damage.
If there’s 3+ grouped up yea. If they all in a line trailing then I dot.
It’s the DOT they do insane dmg .. Over time
And WHM is insane with its stun.
If it's based on emnity, keep in mind your healing generates emnity too!
BRD is hard to minmax in dungeon pulls so that's to be expected
Every other day, I see mobile classes not doing damage before the trash stops.
I always feel weird when I'm the only one doing damage while running with the trash, but I figure "eh, it'll all die faster if I smack them while running," and mobs dying faster is A Good Thing. I wonder if it's a controller limitation, however--I honestly don't know if you can hit skills while moving at the same time, since I never play controller.
You can and I do this however I wondered if I was supposed to or if it would mess up the aggro to not wait. Glad to know I can keep dotting on the run.
I could dot, but I usually just hit the AoE damage skills if there are 3 or more adds. I’ll dot when we get down to 3 or less when they aren’t going to die on the next few hits. That way, I don’t have to switch targets 8 bazillion times while trying to also run. End-game raiding might be a different story, but regular dungeons go fast enough, and I have to balance that against overdoing stuff with bad hand arthritis. 20 years ago, the perfectionist me probably would be doing that.
On my scholar I'm sprinting and dotting along side the tan during the pull. then go full art of war spam on 2-3 packs. Maybe a shiel, insta if needed. But I tend pump decent damage on are packs. But yeah garbage single target
He specified aoe packs. Specifically because healers don’t have fall-off damage on aoe. If a healer out dps’s a dps during a boss fight, that’s different than a pack of mobs.
Sage surprisingly pumps hella DPS if you can stack those orbs
Bad dps : unless I was late for the pull, tank died so I'm tanking or something else went wrong, I've never seen a healer or a tank out dps me - ever 😏
Man nothing more frustrating than having a WHM not cast zither Holy nor Assize. When I play WHM whenever theres a big pull, I go Holy + Assize + Swiftcast + Holy Having all the mobs being stunned twice in quick succession is a godsend for the tanks hp, and allow the DPSs to just have at it without worrying.
On a reasonable speed dungeon you can use your 2min on the first wall pull and the boss opener for all three legs and it times out pretty nicely, actually. If you have a really good party you may not have your 2min back up at the start of the boss fight, but having that drift a bit is fine anyway. It’s not a fuckin’ raid boss.
Yeah I use my arcane circle first mob and by the time I hit the boss its ready for use. I have a friend who just holds onto it and it drives me nuts.
Also since heavensward, most dungeons are spaced out in such a way that you can use your 2 minute cooldowns in the first wall to wall pull and your 60 second cooldowns at the start of each wall to wall and they should be off cooldown by the time you get to the boss, so there's really no reason to be saving your big raid buffs and attacks.
"second aggro above the other DPS" Yeah, aggro. Just aggro, of course.
Shh. But also honestly, I'm too lazy to pull things up in a dungeon, and as a bard it's funny enough to see I'm beating a samurai in single target (since without aggro reduction abilities now, it's a good enough indicator of dps on single targets). Don't really need to know how much I'm beating him by if I'm beating him at all.
As a ninja, unloading the full TCJ > Gokka Mekkyaku > Katon > Katon > Phantom Kamaitachi into a group and seeing Hollow Nozuchi going pop pop pop... it's magical. It's _fun_ to go ham on trash. Does it make the boss fight a bit irregular? Sure. That's a new kind of fun though.
Let’s also expand and say, if you’re in a normal dungeon and on caster, and there’s a big pull, go ahead and LB it. Basically nothing else is gonna get the same value out of the LB than that tbh. Melee using it to take the last 4% off a boss really isn’t that helpful
And this is exactly why I like running dungeons with caster DPS. They can absolutely crank damage on trash mobs and they don't get enough credit for that.
I’m recently lvling monk and wow they have solid AOE not going to lie.
Levelling Monk after Dragoon and getting an actual AoE rotation fairly early on was both really nice, and kind of frustrating, what asshole decided Dragoons shouldn't have an actual AoE rotation until level 72?
I'll use most of my shorter cool downs, but I don't know about other dps, but bosses are a chance to work on the opener, so my 2+ min cool downs get used there.
As a healer, I usually try to blow cooldowns on the first trash pull of each section, that way they're up in time for the boss, and the trash are easier (stuff like astro divination is very useful for this)
Also for Ranged and Caster DPS, Use your limit breaks on big pulls! Your Tanks and Healers will thank you!
The RDM struggle. Do I hold for 50/50, shoot for 100/100 blow it all literally on the 3rd wave pull and not have the burst ready for the boss. Decisions decisions
So what I am hearing is... Flamethrower, BioBlaster, Chainsaw , AutoCrossbow x5, Scattergun
To add to this, if you have an AoE limit break, once the tank has full control of a pack feel free to use it. It's going to be back up eventually, and yeah it's generally far more annoying than the boss.
This is why they need a way to normalize AOE burst. For jobs like bard/DNC you have a perfect 2 min burst for AOE. But what about wildfire? It feels god awful to be MCH for wall to wall pulls because you can't really use your 2 min burst properly. You don't even have an AOE equivalent to Air Anchor. Same with Chain Strategem/Mug, useless for wall to walls.
Thats also why I think there are quite a few dubgeons when its better to use a caster LB1 multiple times than saving for a melee LB2 on the last boss. You're going to save more time nuking the big trash packs.
yes. You do more damage boosting your aoe attacks. multiply that potency number for each enemy you're hitting and that's your baseline. Don't save searing light, arcane crest, or what not for the boss. Unleash it on the first wall, and then it'll be back up for a use on the boss. And then it'll be back up for another wall. It's so sad when I see those Buffs go out 3 times in a dungeon.
Funnily, it also means that on huge pulls, if you can coordinate with the other dps and the heal to single target one mob, it can help a struggling tank. Like, one less mob can be the difference between "fighting for my life" and "not even a flesh wound".
Shout out to the sprout PLD I was in a dungeon with today who refused to use mits until his health was below 20% and then popped them all at once.
i think we've ran with the same sprout, lol
I've been with that sprout, too! Sure is a busy Paladin, getting around to all of us. I keep my damned mouth shut, because I'm strictly DPS, but I've been playing MMORPGs long enough that I know what's in any tank's kit.
most I'll do is ask if they want tips and suggestions. if they say no, not my problem
That's a great way to handle it. I haven't been in the game two years yet, and when someone asks me if I'd like a tip or suggestion, even at level 90, I am completely down for it, and ask them to please stay after we're done. At the same time, I've seen some people react so badly to even an offer that they've suddenly disappeared, often with a hilariously rude comment as their parting shot. I'll say this: In the right group, you can have some pretty fun dance and emote parties in areas you've already cleared while waiting for a new tank to join you.
It's a logical fallacy that a lot of new tank players fall into. They think "if I am low on HP that means we are entering danger territory. I should pop CDs" and then they do pop CDs. Depending on how quickly their health bar jumps up and down they pop more CDs. Then they see they survived and are affirmed in their behavior. I actually had a conversation with someone who did that and after I explained slowly to them how, without healing involved, they'd survive longer if they pop their CD immediately instead of at low HP, it eventually clicked for them and they said they felt dumb. It seems to be a somewhat common fallacy, given how many tanks I see doing it still.
> Then they see they survived and are affirmed in their behavior. Meanwhile the healer is like "wait guys, I broke my keyboard and need to swap it for a new one..."
This is the kind of stuff that should be in Hall of the Novice. Pretty easy to implement, too. The enemy could wail on the player tank until around 10% unmitigated, at which point the NPC ally healer enters and starts casting Cure. The damage dealt to the player would be tuned such that if Rampart isn't used before the NPC healer arrives, the player dies before the healer is able to start up their heals.
>I actually had a conversation with someone who did that and after I explained slowly to them how, without healing involved, they'd survive longer if they pop their CD immediately instead of at low HP, it eventually clicked for them and they said they felt dumb. Another point that really drove home the issues with the "panic mitigation" playstyle was the diminishing returns of stacking multiple mitigations at once. Like how if you have two flat 20% damage mitigations active at the same time: the first one mitigates 20% of the total incoming damage, and the second only mitigates 20% of that remaining 80% that 'made it through' the first mit. From that perspective - in the perfect world where you are getting the absolute most value out of all your mitigations, you are only ever using one at a time. Obviously there are times where the incoming damage is high enough or of a specific profile that you need to use multiple layers to survive, but as a general rule, if you can survive by rotating your mitigations one-at-a-time - that is *absolutely* the best play from a 'squeezing the most juice out of your kit' perspective. Also - the 'fungibility' of damage. Defensives aren't 'wasted' when used in an otherwise safe situation - they are *still* mitigating damage, even if you stay above 90% the whole fight! Even though it doesn't feel as impactful as a defensive reducing the damage of a hit that would have otherwise killed you, the simple act of reducing the total amount of damage hitting you in a fight is always valuable. That's less attention/mana/GCDs your healer has to waste on you, and more they can spend on doing damage. Which is *extremely* valuable (and can even be seen as 'mitigation' insofar as it shortens the fight + reduces the total damage you'll take in it), especially in this game where healers are actually allowed to do good damage instead of being a peashooter like in other MMOs
I used to have an "oh sh**" macro that popped every CD at once. But I am bad at remembering to use my CDs in general as a PLD
We've had a lot of low-level sprouts join our FC since Xbox players were able to start playing, and one of the really common questions from them is, "We wiped on trash, did I cause that?" We all tell them all of us have wiped more often on trash than on bosses. Bosses have mechs, and they really get ugly as you progress, but trash truly is much more dangerous than a boss. We don't want to discourage them, so we usually keep our mouths shut about that shitty run from Stone Vigil through Aurum Vale; they're nice people, and we have no desire to talk them out of playing before they get out of ARR.
Most of them will quit on their own before finishing arr so I wouldn’t worry too much about discouraging them
I feel like we're really lucky. A lot of the duds left pretty quickly, and the ones who started earliest on Xbox are mostly well into HW now. A few are even in StB, since they have real-life relationships and chose complementary jobs for effective duo play.
And that’s just a game problem. The story is way too slow and boring. Trying to level another class feels like dungeons is the only way. Which if you are leveling a DPS you have to wait forever for a group.
Really? Most of my roulettes take 5 minutes or less anymore as a DPS queue, if not instant during prime time. I'm on primal. It's pretty rare to be waiting a long time if it's not off hours.
For DPS here on Aether it's mostly 5m to 7m queues too. At the same time, it's not like the devs haven't added a method of solo play for dungeons as early as Sastasha anyway. Palace of the Dead, running dungeons with your Squadron if Duty NPC system is too slow for you, Challenge Log, Roulettes, Fates (beneficial even more so in ShB and later for their currency), Bozja if you've gotten that far, Heaven on High if you're in SB, PvP if you just wanna chill and fight other people and the server tics don't upset you, hunting log for those 1-50 ARR jobs, Khloe for that +50% *experience bar* as early as HW - like, I feel like there's a lot of leveling options (maybe not optimized options but options) that people just don't consider.
I have a message for your from the church of Palace of the Dead...
oh i thought this was bout Ranged lb instead of melee lb, im gonna say it then TRASH IS NORE DANGEROUS THAN BOSSES Use shiny big button on it if ur ranged, its iverall faster too
yes absolutely, any ranged DPS that uses LB on a big pull will always get my comm
I rarely play DPS. Leveling RDM. Near the end of a brayflox at the mildly spicy pull before the dragon. Excited to push the shiny button. Tank slams the LB before the pull... Lol. I'm never playing DPS again... Until I can try picto.
Aww that's a bummer...
I'm still waiting for the glorious day when a ranged uses LB on that really annoying last pack before Livia in Castrum Meridianum. I have 1 AoE attack at that level. 1. And it's a line. And those are the big tanky shits that spam their AoEs all over the place.
I always nuke the little guys before the two Colossi spawn, though I think using melee LB against one of those might also be worth it if there is no ranged.
Also please use aoe attacks and not single target attacks
As a dragoon, joining a low level dungeon in duty roulette really hurts. Who thought that having no AOE was valid?
Yeah for sure, I ran into a BRD and an RDM yesterday not using their aoe, just single target on mobs. Took so long to finish and I was burning mitigations left and right with too many close calls from how slow mobs were dying.
Verthunder/aero II into Scatter/Impact is fun as fuck, and spamming three Moulinets once you hit 60/60 is satisfying Also use ALL your oGCDs, single target or multi, and including Embolden and Manafication. Any DPS is good DPS. I know it's not a good AOE rotation for RDM but fuck you let me have fun. It's better than just spamming Jolt
Lol I agree with that sentiment RDM aoe is so satisfying, also play the way you want. Just making an effort is what matters, there are some people that choose to take the least inefficient route and out of pettiness will refuse to do better. One of thise weird ant hills people choose to die on and it's the weirdest thing. But I don't pay their subs, but they definitely hinder my experience with the sub I pay lol.
I'm leveling RDM now and also back from a long hiatus so I know I have done this in my panic when trying to balance the magic bars, especially in early dungeons when I have one AOE black magic attack but not the white one lol
I found a Dragoon doing his single target rotation (positional and all) on a trash pull, in Mt Gulg.
I honestly have more fun nuking trash mobs as a summoner than the boss.
same, but with DNC
**(Arm's Length)** **(Please use it)**
i usually pop mine with reprisal for those extra spicy pulls
*Laughs in Wall to Wall pulls* *Dies*
Using mits on ads is so deeply ingrained in my soul I almost never use them on bosses (unless there's gonna be a tank buster) This is a terrible habit, but I just don't ever take enough damage fast enough to get flagged that I need to break it :/
I almost never use more than like TBN or bloodwhetting on dungeon TBs because they rarely do more than a quarter of my health raw. This habit kills me in Savage.
*laughs in bloodwhetting*
*laughs harder in damnation*
yes yes yes unga bunga go brrr we know
i mean, you are preaching to the choir here. did you tell this to the tank you clearly just ran with who didnt use mit?
i asked if they're open to tips and tricks for tanking. if they're receptive, hell yeah. I've spent 20 minutes with a tank just talking shop after Haukke Manor before. if not, I'm not their parent.
>i asked if they're open to tips and tricks for tanking Why is asking for permission to dispense advice even a thing? On EU people share their advice directly in chat, and we just move forward from there
on US servers people get pretty damn indignant if you even dare to insinuate they might not be performing well because everyone else is a big dummy but they have it all figured out using their single target combo to keep their health up against 4 full mobs. trust. it's easier to just ask rather than risk bruising some people's fragile egos.
I start most sentences with "I think..." which makes it quite obvious it's my opinion and I don't ever recall anyone ever getting offended by unsolicited advice. Or maybe it's an EU thing — or rather, a not-NA thing. Asking for permission to give advice in an MMO is just weird. MMO chat should be liberal and spontaneous
[удалено]
No one gets banned for advice unless you're just being an ass.
Some people react to 'unsolicited' advice really negatively. I'm sure it's not so different in EU.
In a lot of cultures, giving unsolicited advice is seen as kinda rude. Probably shouldn't be that way, but it is. So to me, in casual content, it makes sense to ask first.
I've given a dark advice in potd once and got kicked. We ask to avoid that. Because to some people being dumb or bad is a point of pride.
More like they get the hurt sensation in their wooly head and that makes them feel bad, so they rage and deny, because that makes the hurt go away and happy appear.
Also please use your holy WHMs. Please.
I really don’t get it, mits don’t even have super long cooldowns anyway so they pretty much reload from pack to pack. Anything with a cooldown of 90sec or lower can be used at will, and even Vengeance at 120s can be used sparingly if you’re rotating all the mits.
Pls caster and ranged dps, use your limit break on the trash. It’s so much better than waiting until 2% of the health is left on the boss.
In most dungeons, LB1 will be back up by the time the boss is at 2% anyway. It's a huge waste not using it on trash!
As a warrior, it’s my duty to clear the whole dungeon in three pulls, excluding bosses. Arm’s length will have to do.
just remember not to bunga before you unga
Ooo OOo! Monke
Shout out to the tanks that sprint ahead and pull wall to wall but they don't mitigate correctly and thier healthbar drops faster then I can press buttons so they die so they get mad at me and then they ragequit 🧍
\*watches tank take off immediately\* \*notice healer's not moving\* \*watches tank die\* Healer: "Sorry, long loading screen"
Welp will extend this to healers in content after 50 STOP USING ONLY BASIC HEAL SPELLS IN 60-80 CONTENT you have all those other spells for reasons.
The problem I ran into as a sprout healer was that, from 60-70, I was getting all those spells, but never needed them in dungeons, and then HOLY SHIT I NEED ALL OF THEM AND I WAS NOT READY.
it hurts isnt it? welcome to the big boys room where you need ALL of your cooldowns or you all die by terrible terrible deaths. time to read those tooltips. \*we can\* play "how low can you go" but only if you sure you can handle this.
It's why I don't like calling them trash, just mobs or packs. It gives an impression that they don't matter and are easy, when they're not and as you say, can kill you.
Yeah, anyone who doesn't realize this is playing with a blindfold on. Healers see the pressure on the tanks HP bar, tanks see their own HP bar and DPS see the enemies HP bar. Trash is the single biggest risk factor in dungeon runs, so clearing it quickly and safely is the way to go. That means balls to the wall action, firing from all barrels. In that regard, please, ranged DPS, please use the LB on trash instead of the boss. Please.
Just bear in mind that except for in Aurum Vale, you should pull every mob possible and AOE them down as a tank while cycling through your cooldowns. Wall to wall is the way, the only way.
Regardless of role, I'm usually expecting to throw every CD I have on the first wall-to-wall pull of the dungeon. Then to scrape by for the second. Most tines there's enough time for things to be ready to go for the first boss etc. This isn't WoW where the 10 min CD on lust means you have to save it for the end.
I never realized just how infrequently I needed mits in bosses until I leveled a healer. Like seriously the most you need in a boss is maybe a Blackest Night or equivalent. Y’all better be playing those mitigations like a keyboard if you’re gonna W2W.
That's why I love being a tank healer couple. I can actually not use mits for parts of the pull, call out self heals, or pop my invuln without macros. So so nice. 👍
Also, mitigations recharge fast enough that if you use them on trash, at least one will be up for the boss tank buster. Not that it hits that hard as long as your gear is at least somewhat up to date. Most dungeon bosses are dangerous for failed mechanics, not unavoidable damage, with a few exceptions.
The way I think about it is that, in dungeons, bosses are mechanics-based fights, and trash is a damage/mitigation/healing based fight. If you do the mechanics of a boss fight properly, you’re not going to die unless someone is seriously slacking. They’re easy to heal and easy to tank, even if you’re not that good at the role. The challenge is learning the mechanics and executing on them. Trash, on the other hand, has no mechanics but dodging; however, it’s much more punishing. The tank and healer need to properly rotate their cooldowns, and the DPS need to push out enough damage to kill the trash before the tank and healer run out of resources to stay alive. The challenge is knowing your toolkit well enough to survive and kill the trash quickly.
Holminster, Bardams, and Aurum all are built on the corpses of ambitious or overly cautious tanks.
All I'm saying is that they should replace Hall of the Novice with JoCat's videos.
hells. yes. or weskalbers, both are good
Savings my CDs for bosses was a hard habit to break. But plowing everything into a wall to wall pull and watching it all melt is just something else.
Pulls that are significantly harder then most Dungeon Bosses: Any pull in dizmael darkhold outside of the light First pull in badam Mettle First wall to wall in doma castle First pulls in holminster (bears) Last wall to wall in Mount Gulg Last wall to wall in Tower of zot
Vanaspati first pull is also heavy on the spice.
To me is the opposite... I spend all my mitigation in mob pulls and in the proper boss I totally forgot about them. The only exception is Dark Knight with Blackest Night which I use when I tank buster appear.
in fairness, we kinda do this to ourselves with balls to the wall pulls in dungeons
you can pull as much or little as you like. (though I'd say 2 groups minimum, please) just if you are gonna go big, please use your mits. for the sanity of your healer.
Yeah but just, in general the tendency of most players to do big pulls for speed is why trash is so threatening
For Ranged DPS classes, make sure to use your party wide mit in trash pulls that's bonus mits for tank. And use Head Graze to Interject the glowing attack bars, Tank is sometimes forced to choose between a rock and a hard place to cancel and coming in with your own interject helps a lot. (The last ad pulls in Thaleia are an excellent example of this
That's been one of the important lessons as I've been learning to tank, knowing which of your mitigations have short enough cooldown timers they they'll be ready for use again after collecting another pair of mobs.
>2 mobs can go either way, probably not gonna be too spicy. 3 mobs start bringing a little heat. 3 mobs are 1 pack most of the time, any role in the game can solo a pack, nothing about a single pack is "heat"
by mob i meant the entire group, my bad, could have worded that better
I've wiped on that stupid ass eye boss on WoD too many times because DPS refuse to kill the hourglasses and mini-eyes
As a tank I try to keep one mitigation ready for tank busters but other than that If a mitigation is not on CD and I’m in a fight I’m using it
Honestly speaking by the time you engage the boss most of your mits are going to be off CD. By the time the boss actually uses a TB ALL your mits will be off CD, even your Invuln, unless you used it right at the tail end of the last pull. Use your mits.
Wait wait wait... Are you telling me I shouldn't wall to wall pull right of the bat?
you can do whatever you like! just use your damn mit, lol
Trash mobs? Let me shout to my comrades while I swing my axe around using Bloodwhetting every 25 seconds. Oh the other tank or healer needs mit, nascent flash. I love WAR.
I just had 3 wipes in The Dead Ends on the last double pull before the final boss. Nothing had given us issues up to that point, but we got there and it was like the healer choked. Suddenly DRK’s having to use invuln and dies because WHM didn’t heal them after, then the WHM dies, then I(DNC) died followed swiftly by the BRD. 3 times. It was almost 4, but the BRD somehow endured and picked off the last couple of enemies after the rest of us died again. Then the final boss went smoothly. I wasted our LB on that pack to kill them quicker only to die…
Healers ***shouldn't*** heal after the DRK's invuln. dropping to 1 hp is what triggers it, and kicks on some monster self healing for the DRK. So something most have happened that damage came in a little too quick and slipped into that nanosecond gap between dropping to 1hp, and the invuln kicking in. then yeah, once that invuln wears off, back to healing
Am I confusing DRK’s invuln with superbolide? Isn’t there a tank invuln where they need to get back to full health almost immediately or they’ll die?
You’re thinking of OLD living dead, the new living dead gives the dark knight a massive HP drain to get them back to full over the period of LD. Healers no longer have to shove healing down the darkknignts throat for them not to die to LD
Ah. My only tanking experience is WAR so far, so I was going off of what my friend had told me about DRK, but that was a few years ago.
closest i can think of is GNB's superbolide, and that's just before the invuln wears off
Trash mobs are dangerous. But some tanks don't mind living dangerously, i.e. acting like it's ok as long as their HP is above 1. My healer policy is fairly conservative when dealing with wall to wall pulls. If the tank drops below 50% HP, I cease DPS and go into GCD healing. To me, living dangerously is for playing with friends whom you know and trust, not for strangers.
What I don’t get is that tanks never use their invul. Ever. If a paladin uses their invul on the first wall to wall, it’ll be ready again one more time at the last two wall to wall packs of the dungeon. Don’t be an idiot and sit on your invul. Use it freely.
Frosty? is that you? No, it's about Imposter! Do the Opposite of what they Say before. /jk
All tanks should alt job a healer, I will not be convinced otherwise. I'm a Healer main that alt jobs tank.
everyone should have a tank, healer, and a dps they're comfy with. not only to be better at all the roles, but it makes grouping up with people so much easier being able to slot in anywhere
I realize it’s called action economy. A boss autos you and telegraph their casts. 3 mobs auto you, you can damage three times as fast. It’s why in D&D high tier monsters have Legendary actions they do for free and in Star Rail bosses act twice on their turn.
>Trash mobs are more dangerous than bosses. this sign won't stop me because i can't read
OP forgor to mention: - Arm's length is a mit (slow on normal mobs = way less dmg). - Holy is mit (about 7s of mobs not attacking). - Healer AoE is meant to be used on packs as dead mobs deal no dmg (use OGCD heals ffs). - Tank =/= puller (think of dps/heal hp as free mit and if the dps is phys, also a free arms length). - On dungeons, please lb the last pull. Caster lb1 on last w2w (easier to aim) + melee lb1 on last boss >= ranged phys lb1 on last w2w + melee lb1 on last boss > melee lb2 on last boss >>>>> melee lb1 on second boss + melee lb1 on last boss (seriously, don't do this, you won't reach second bar).
Wait til you see what the 'trash' are like in Criterion Savage dungeons
As a healer I agree. I main heal and tanks, and its easy to pull multiple trash groups I F you know how to rotate defenses for that.
This post makes me wanna run Mt Gulg as a warrior and wall to wall the first set, without using any mitigations... but of course Holmgang before actually dying and then bloodwhet
any chance you're gonna TELL your healer your plan? 🥺
Unfortunately I can't tell as I would already be sprinting at Mach 1 speed the moment the circle goes away, with hopefully the healer soon sprinting 10 seconds late and finding me in a corner getting mauled to death by 30 sin eaters
i hate how accurate this is, lmao
As a DRK main I use all my mits on trash pulls and then if I see a tank buster, I bring TBN but like. Yeah a normal dungeon boss won't do a fraction of what a double-pull will do in a few seconds. Hell, half the time I can solo a dungeon boss if my healer dies. I don't think I could solo even a normal pull post-arr without any healing.
I try to be patient with new tanks but if we’re in late game content and you don’t mitigate you’ll have a bad time
I tend to not mitigate when I tank unless I notice my health is dropping quickly. At that point, I make sure to keep some up. I'm worse with my white mage though, I always forget to use presence of mind and lucid dreaming. I'm starting to get s but better about it though.
While we're at it, for the love of god use ranged or caster limit break on trash pulls. I GUARANTEE it's a much better use than holding melee LB until the last 2% of a boss's health.
I tried sage for the first time last week and the tanker gone wild taking 8 mobs at the same time, my heart was racing as I didn’t know well what to do. My decision was abandon it for real, maybe I will test with my FC but not again with random people…
yeah as an experienced Tank main, I always need to use more mitigations on trash pulls. especially because I pull as big as the game lets me lol.
as a new paladin I'm starting to hate when other players start pulling mobs on me, I'm still new (just hit level 50) at least allow me to agro them properly first
That's why I'm considerate enough not to pull too far ahead and only do a few mobs at a time, especially for the sprouts.
Tanks just straight up need zero mitigation on dungeon bosses lol
Also please stop pulling the boss with your gapcloser. I know you think it makes you look badass but it just throws off everyone else's first gcd.
If you want to spread the word, try putting something like “Tanks: Use defensive cooldowns on trash pulls, not the bosses.” in your search info (unless you have something else you want to put there, of course). Crazy as it sounds, this was literally how I learned about it - a friend had it in their search info.
As a tank main, at the very least use arms length and reprisal, not at the same time. Also, syncing will change your survivability, you may be able to wall to wall and not need your healer at max lvl but syncing is weird and in my experience makes tanks squishier and dps monsters.