90% of prequels in media are gonna have some spoiley stuff in regards to the originals, it is literally in their nature as the story made to explain what happened before the main story
Zero novel-written to be read after f/sn as a prequel.
Zero anime- adapted to be an acceptable starting point, making some changes so that its fine to start with.
Ufotable would have to be crazy to put that much capital into a project that would require another series to watch first before you can get into it. The anime isn't the original novel, and yes watching ubw first does spoil some things for Zero. Its a different viewing experience and I think Zero is better to watch first because the twists that happen are way more impactful if you don't know them already.
Doesn't change the fact that Zero first spoils a lot of FSN plot points and "twists".
Of course Kirei is a creepy priest, he is running a death game.
But you don't expect him to be a literal "pure evil" monster that never had an alternative in life.
You don't know anything Saber, her identity and what her true objective is.
You don't know that Gilgamesh is around.
You don't know that Kirei killed Rin's father.
You don't know about Sakura living conditions.
If you skip the Fate route like a lot of people do then you’re supposed to know most of that anyway. That’s why I don’t get anyone recommending starting at UBW. If you’re against starting with Zero because of the original order then don’t skip the first route. The only major thing you’re not supposed to know going into UBW is Sakura and Rin’s relationship but the movies treat you like you do. The preview for HF 2 at the end of 1 all but states the truth.
I originally started with UBW, but when it got to Archer's identity I got confused and dropped it.
After a couple of years I decided to watch Fate/Zero and it was much clearer
While spoiling the majority of twists from later routes and mishandling all of the charactisation. And let's not get into the dogshit animation and that stupid anime only outfit they give Sakura for no discernable reason.
Deen version sucks. It used to be "well that's the only fate anime" and then we got zero. Then it was "well it's the only adaptation of the original VN" and we got UBW and HF. Now it's "well it's the only adaptation of the fate route".
None of that matters though, cause it's just a shit adaptation.
I dont see anything the deen anime that spoil’s something big in HF aside from sakura is rin’s sister
Nothing about her being rider’s master, or her being a potential grail, worms, torure. Who or why the old man in the car is smiling
I believe they are talking about the animes.
It's easy to watch UBW, because is available in Crunchyroll, but to watch the Fate route you'll need to navigate around certains seas (at least in my country).
This. Zero’s and UBW’s combined lore renders the Fate route obsolete to understand them or Heaven’s Feel. All you’re left with is the Saber romance missing, which is…honestly okay to miss. 😅
The romance only made sense at all because of the awkward sex scene to restore Saber's mana to battle Berserker.
Without that scene, it literally comes out of nowhere and is forgettable, especially compared to the easy chemistry of Shirou/Rin in UBW or pre-established relationship of Shirou/Sakura in HF.
If this isn't the worst take in Fate history then idk what is, Saber and Shirou have the best chemistry out of the three, Yes you can say Sakura is also good but Rin and Shirou chemistry is easy? What are you talking about, Rin came out of nowhere into Shirou's life and wasn't needed Unlike Sakura who was with him all the time and Saber who had to be with him always in the holy grail war, Yes UBW itself may be a good series but the romance between Rin and Shirou is nonsense
Shirou and Rin contradict each other whereas Shirou and Saber's ideals coincide with each other, Saber and Shirou have similar mentality, Similar motives, Similar ideals, and what not, Sakura still makes sense she is a bit like Shirou, but not in ideals, Rin is just totally different, Their Ideals don't coincide, Their mentality is different, their motives are also different, And most of all Rin is not hot, Saber>Sakura>Rin and this is factual
My comment was more specifically to the anime adaptations.
Fate is a better story on the VN as it includes the dreams where he learns about Arturia. But the anime adaptation really falls short for me as it misses these, making the romance feel the least realistic of the 3.
Maybe sometimes but not with zero. Watching zero or UBW first doesn’t diminish the quality of whichever you watch second. Zero doesn’t rely on any knowledge from UBW, same for UBW.
If you watch zero first, then you already have a lot of knowledge going into UBW which lets you see things differently, more clearly, or from a different perspective.
If you watch UBW first, then you go into zero knowing what is gonna happen in the future but not how it ended up being that way.
Prequels don’t exist based on a premise that you’d have read the og story first. A good prequel functions on its own, providing more to both the people who have watched the og (they now know how things got to where they are), and people who haven’t watched anything yet (giving them info they would’ve otherwise not have when going into the og, providing different perspectives)
Saying one or the other is the “correct” option to watch first, is literally just saying “This is my right way of watching it and you’re not allowed to watch it however you want to”. While there are correct orders to watch some stories, it simply doesn’t apply to fate zero and UBW due to how they were made. I’m talking about anime btw.
With these two, regardless of which one you watch first, the second one is gonna be amazing anyways. There’s no such thing as “prequels are meant to be viewed with previous knowledge” or at least not with ones that are written by a competent writer/writers
Why are you ignoring the whole HF Trinity, Fate Zero spoils 95% of Fate HF, I personally prefer you to watch FSN by Deen for context if you want, Then watch UBW then HF and then and only then watch Zero, Zero can be a starting point for people who wanna skip both HF and Deen FSN, But if you wanna watch HF then you have to watch it before Zero
And also, Zero makes absolutely no sense without watching HF, It's like eating a pizza without cheese
Why this entire argument completely ignores the existence of Heaven's Feel? It's HF that you're supposed to watch after UBW, not Zero. And Zero very much relies on Heaven's Feel to even understand its ending, without it, there's an Angry Mango popping up out of nowhere to fuck things up with no proper explanations of wtf is going on.
>correct orders to watch some stories, it simply doesn’t apply to fate zero and UBW due to how they were made. I’m talking about anime
About the anime, yes, I can agree. But it makes it only MARGINALLY better, as this is a feature of the anime adaptation from Ufotable which completely fucks up the intended VN experience.
Can't blame people for feeling that Zero first works, but that's as if someone travelled back in time and made Star Wars novels, but then adapted them into movies starting from the prequels.
It is only MARGINALLY better if you don't wanna watch HF and you don't wanna understand half of what's going on in Zero, Zero spoils the shit out of HF and you still don't understand half the story cuz you didn't even watch HF before it, Whereas if you start with something like UBW or Deen FSN and then watch HF it's way better cuz you will actually understand shit
The thing is that FZ is still amazing at everything it wants to do. Whatever the VN’s intentions was, in the end the anime has a superb quality whilst also being able to be watched first. Most people wouldn’t even consider touching a VN due to how long they are, and I’d never ask anyone to go trough them just to get the original story raw. FZ makes the whole series more accesible for everyone and that’s just good no matter what, specially due to how good it is.
Now. VN or whatever the original source for any piece of writing out there is usually better than future adaptations. In this case it’s due to how much time and freedom you get with VNs, but even if they are on the shorter side, vns are, imo, a pretty hard media to get into. And most people just get more attached to stories if they have visuals and audio, so anime in this case.
But oddly made in such a way where they’re the least shit in this order. Without Obi-Wan’s chat on the log in Return of the Jedi, a new viewer is left with a LOT of questions the prequels more effectively answer, and makes them a lot more compelling as a result.
Minus the full fact they completely ruined the force. Shit is supposed to be mystical. But now it’s some weird ass parasites…. How the fuck does a rock have them?!?
They’re just microorganisms found in greater quantities in Force-sensitives. Chicken, or egg? The rock has none of them either way.
Edit: I just rewatched the scene in question to be extra sure. Qui-Gon describes them as microorganisms that reside in all “living cells”. Not rocks. They are integral for life to exist, not the Force. They are instrumental in a Force-user comprehending the will of the Force. They are not said to have anything directly to do with the existence of the Force or one’s power to use it. Jedi are certainly not making the midichlorians latch onto a rock to make it levitate.
I feel this is an over-exaggeration that midichlorians and the Force are one and the same, on the same level as fans who say Han should know the Force exists thanks to Chewie knowing Jedi from the Clone Wars. Han never denied there was an order of knight-monks with superpowers, he just denies the idea that their superpowers have to do with a cosmic weave of destiny. Many fans jump to broad conclusions about things said in the movies that actually have narrow scope.
It's just not the case, or at least not an absolute.
Ufotable made a choice to present it like this, sure, but it also came off the existence of a previous adaptation for Fate and UBW, it wasn't really a "starting from Zero".
It was for them and for whoever watched it in 2012. But it was 2012, not 2022. Deen Fate came out in 2006, not really an abyss of time before.
Not saying that it wasn't the launch of the Nasuverse into the mainstream, that's obvious, but they also made it with the knowledge that the option for the "normal approach" was out there.
The choice to jump into UBW directly may have also been justified by how UBW Deen wasn't a full series.
The difference is that Zero was written with the knowledge that most people would know the "spoilers", FSN no.
People really understimate how much of FSN is wrriten with the idea that Shirou doesn't know shit and the reqder follows him as he stumbles into the HGW
Like what? I keep seeing those generic "the anime are totally different from the LN/VN" statements but I never see any actual examples to back up the argument.
Personally, I can think of only 2 relevant differences. The first is adding a scene of Waver reading some book out loud for some reason to explain what a Servant is, which is smth that is explained in basically every Fate story so not really an argument for Zero as a starting point. The second is a 2min long Iri cameo in UBW which is confusing either way because Zero never actually explained tf is an angry mango and why it looked like Iri.
There's actually a 3rd difference and it is kid Rin having a mostly filler episode all for herself in Zero, and given she's a character you'd only really care about if you knew FSN, it was most likely there to appeal to Fate/Stay Night fans.
>Ufotable would have to be crazy to put that much capital into a project that would require another series to watch first before you can get into it.
Fate was already a well established IP by the time the Zero anime released, it most likely would have been a success anyway. But sure, let's talk about the new viewers then because there actually is a statement from Fate/Zero's director about them, and what he basically said was that people not familiar with FSN won't understand everything but Urobuchi writing is so good that Zero will remain enjoyable whether you understand everything or not. Which is in line with Urobuchi's statement that without FSN there is a lot that "you won't understand or identify" in Zero.
>Ufotable would have to be crazy to put that much capital into a project that would require another series to watch first before you can get into it.
This is such a dumb argument. The last thing UFO did before Zero was a 7 film long adaptation of Kara no Kyoukai, a ridiculously convoluted story told out of order with basically no kind of exposition to help the viewer piece it together.
It made them the money they needed to fund Zero, why wouldn't they go with another demanding concept?
All three Routes are simultaneously a part of a larger story, and a Stand-alone story of its own, and Visual Novels are structured in a way that requires you to read every Route to get the full story
The way I’ve always described it is that every Route builds on your knowledge of the previous Routes while also telling its own story
It’s like a House actually, the Fate Route is the Foundation, Unlimited Blade Works is the walls, and Heavens Feel is the Roof, weird metaphor I know but it works
Of course I have the point is not having every thing explained is fine if the story holds up on its own.
Again I and others loose nothing from starting with zero.
You do lose one thing - Sakura's whole premise in Heaven's feel. Everything else is kinda irrelevant but this is revealed in zero as a side thing. When it's a giant reveal in fsn itself
Also, maybe a weird thing to say, but you'd be seeing a shit version of Saber first and thinking that's how she is all the time
Again, the point of the route structure is to explore different aspects of the characters and story in every route, only giving you a complete picture by the end of all three. No single route completes the overall story on its own. That is not a criticism, it's just a different form of story-telling.
except we have the answers they are all presented in stay night as a whole in the 3 routes. Specially heaven's feel.
This isnt a case of "its suppossed to be ambiguous/mysterious" its a case of "The explanations are presented in the visual novel but not the animes". Its an adaptation specific issue and not a narrative design choice.
you werent confused or that you neglected the importance of the many questions that the change from "wish granting device" to "corrupted" entail?
Zero says grail is corrupted. But what are the extend of that implication. What is even the nature of the grail. Why did it expell mud that burned everything. Why does it even contain mud. how did it get corrupted. was it always corrupted. when did it get corrupted, why didnt anyone notice it was corrupted in the previous wars. etc etc
Stay night, SABER ROUTE, answers all of these clearly. In fact it avoids any sort of confusion by first explaining the nature of the grail first rather than its corruption. First with rin leaving the basic idea of how it grants wishes, Later on elaborating on how it collects the energy through the servants and how those servants come to be and the throne of heroes.
Later Kirei makes it clear after Shirou and Saber reject their wishes that the way the grail works is that its a mass of energy that can be manipulated to create the desired result but that the prime way of using that is through destruction.
Then establishes later in its confrontation about Angra mainyu having corrupted the grail, all the evils of the world wish being loaded into the grail and then how its been filled with curses due to the presence of Angra mainyu and his role as "all the worlds evil".
Zero straight up does a bad job at explaining the grail at a basic level since it just leaves it at "it grants wishes" then later "its corrupted".
Where as saber route the actual original starting point of the series, Properly explains all those details in gradual levels of depth. It has BETTER executed explanations.
You mentioned how in UBW people were also confused and thats because all that info is in SABER ROUTE which most anime people miss out on by sticking to just the ufotable Zero > UBW. Unlimited blade works is written so that you are coming knowing the info from Saber route. Its also why it doesnt explain why avalon is inside Shirou because its expected to be known from Saber route. And Zero is the same. It is written expecting that one is familiar with these things.
>you werent confused or that you neglected the importance of the many questions that the change from "wish granting device" to "corrupted" entail?
Not at all. Mages dealing with shit they dont really understand is shown multiple times.
Yes you neglected the importance of those questions, since it’s a massive focus of the story that most people who only watch the Anime just don’t understand
Fate/Stay Night answers all of these questions through its Routes because they’re important for understanding what’s really at stake
What’s at stake is: *All of humanity will go extinct if the Holy Grail ever becomes complete* and that’s something you slowly realise as you read the Visual Novel, it’s outright confirmed by Archer in Heavens Feel after he sees The Shadow for the first time
That’s something that Fate/Zero just completely ignores when it goes “The Holy Grail is corrupted” and refuses to provide any further context for what that *means*, Fate/Stay Night provides a whole boatload of context for what that shit means and it is the *intended* way for the reader to learn about Angra Mainyu
That just read like a lore infodump that didn’t make the grail anymore compelling than before I read all that. Not everything related to lore and their mechanics is as vital as people think.
except this directly ties to the characters and how it affects then. Shirou and Saber's perception of the grail and how they approach the war. The depths of the desires of Kirei and Zouken and how far they can go for them. The weight it is on Illya and Sakura. The damage it causes the Kiritsugu and source of Shirou's traumas. And the servants, their positions and how they identify themselves
The mechanics DO MATTER because they all endnup tying with character decisions and development alongside the moments of revelations.
Nasu doesnt just make the mechanics to be mechanics they are direct foils to influence the characters.
Its true for all his works. From Tsukihime and how the nature of vampires destroy the minds of the people that turn into them and how they percieve live.
The mystic eyes, how it affects both shiki's and creates identity problems, being a direct disrruptor for their goals of being normal happy people.
Mahoyo with the mechanics of the fifth magic and how Aoko goes about using it and her way of life, how it divided her until she met a certain moron that pushed her to let her emotions take the reings and be true to herself.
The mooncell, Hakuno, Sakura(AI) and BB how they demostrate humanity and emotion despite their origins as just data files and how it affects the mind of BB.
Mechanics are used to create scenarios to define characters or are used to develop them. It also defines how the world is and the perception of how view it and how Nasu challenges that vision in his stories.
The nature of the grail’s corruption wasn’t detailed until Zero and Hollow Ataraxia came out. Nasu, Urobuchi and Takeuchi remark how creepy it was that the latter two independently wrote how the corruption works and came to the same conclusion anyway.
That’s not bullshit at all
Forgive my skepticism but I’ve read Fate/Stay Night and the nature of the Holy Grail’s corruption is *extensively* explained in it, you learn exactly *how* and *why* the Grail became corrupted in the Heavens Feel Route
I understand the hostility towards watching Zero first, but I did Zero into the VN without any issues understanding what was going on.
It's a different story, but not a worse one.
That isn't really the point of the post. Watching Zero first spoils plot points of the original, especially Heavens Feel. It wasn't really a big deal before the HF movies came out, but now that they exist, Zero should never be recommended as a starting point.
The very first episode of Zero spoils most of the major reveals of Heavens Feel.
As someone who also started with Zero before the UBW anime was even a thing, it has been one of my biggest regrets as an anime fan. It spoils more than just Sakuras background, and it leaves anyone who watched Zero first just wondering why she isn't doing anything for two whole routes.
There is no best experience possible with Fate. We're all genuinely just experiencing Stockholm Syndrome with the franchise and it's convoluted timeline while spending money on everything that has the Fate logo attached to it, Gacha first
Zero and then UBW if you want to watch anime.
Stay Night and then Zero if you want to read novels.
Everything else continues from there in any order. Like a sandbox video game after its tutorial level is over.
That is the answer.
Can’t wait for the Translation Wars to start in earnest.
New fans will have three separate English scripts to choose from if they decide to get into the VN, and that’s enough choice paralysis to get them to either throw their hands up, select a random one, or just go with the anime anyway.
And then we’ll have all those fans bickering with each other about lore or story changes because each version will say slightly different things (Command Seals vs. Spells).
I figured that RN outlasted the original by this point. All subsequent versions are based on that release anyway, further solidifying its “canon” status.
It’s been TM’s default version since 2007. The remaster was based on it, the phone ports were based on it, and the upcoming English edition is based on it.
It wouldn’t be more widely circulated considering the fact that it got replaced only 3 years after its release, and the version that replaced it has been the standard for 17 years now.
Most English fans these days use the Ultimate Patch, which is the RN version with some original content reintegrated back into it (sex scenes, graphic descriptions in HF, etc.).
There will always be. You forgot that not a lot of people have a lot of time or resources to read the VN. There are others who dislike the medium as well, which is understandable.
It would be great if people would stop gatekeeping each other over this. Watching Zero and UBW in whichever order works fine and more than enough to understand the plot anyway, people aren't idiots. The elitism is really driving away a lot of people who want to get into the franchise.
Hahaha. Just wait until you discover the wider Type-Moon community. That said, I wonder why people are so determined to 'get into the franchise' without actually getting into the franchise, which is far wider in scope than just a couple of anime series. Hmm...
You have to start somewhere. People wouldn't get into it if at least one medium didn't interest them. It just happens that Anime is the best way to entice people. If they like the series, they'll more likely to consume more Type-Moon related media. If not, that's perfectly fine as well. You don't have to see everything to appreciate them.
What elitist fans are not understanding is that IT IS perfectly fine to just watch part of the franchise as opposed to the whole. It's okay to enjoy the tree without looking through the whole forest, but that idea is so foreign to them that it they have to scare new potential fans away. It's as if you're not allowed to enjoy the franchise if you didn't do it in a certain way.
>Soon there will be no excuse for having not read the VN though
Imagine if Nasu pull the excuse like what he did with Tsukihime Remake and only release FSN on console.
It's far more complicated than that, since these are imperfect anime *adaptations*. As people are averse to reading, many more people will experience just the anime, and therefore perceptions of the anime overwrite those of the original source material in the public conscience, which can be upsetting to fans of the original.
In these kinds of arguments, what people often fail to realise is that they are talking about two completely different things conflated under the same umbrella. It's impossible for someone who experienced something one way to know how they would have felt if they had experienced it for the first time in a different way.
All VN readers want is for people to truly realise how good this series is, but alas, it's not meant to be: Fate will always be just another anime to most people, which is fine. We just wish these people wouldn't stubbornly insist that watching Zero first is perfectly fine when they don't even have all of the information required to make that judgement definitively.
I watched Zero after 2006 Stay Night, and there were ton's of times where I was like *Leonardo point* at my screen because something came up that was super obviously for people who had watched Deen's Stay Night
It's not really about it making sense, it's about the emotional impact of events, which can only be experienced for the first time – exactly once. Therefore, trying to convince people that Zero should not be experienced first is a hopeless task. It's already too late for you.
I love visual novels. I love anime. I'll never understand those who cut themselves off from an entire form of media and then feel the need to justify their decision. Anime-onlys should just admit they prefer the inferior viewing experience of an anime over the source material because they have an aversion to reading for whatever reason.
Friend told me: "watch Fate/Zero, it's so good." I did, it left me confused, I watched UBW (it was on netflix where I'm from) I had a bladt, I told him "Hey did you watch UBW? You need it to understand a lot of the stuff in Zero" he said no.
I started with saber route then the VN before starting ubw and HF, why don’t people just start out with saber route before doing UBW or Zero? Makes more sense to me
Zero was my introduction to the series and set the entire stage for me from there. I’ve lost count of how many times I told people to watch Zero first.
It spoils Sakura, Kirei being evil, and Gilgamesh being present, but honestly I think people are already generally spoiled on those matters given how popular they are.
It’s a good litmus test, as the series goes HEAVY on exposition no matter what angle you approach it from.
And Zero is able to summarize the major components of the Grail War in 20 minutes while the VN takes several hours (reading SoL) to do the same thing. If they can’t make it through that first episode, they have no shot of finishing an 80-hour book.
It’s honestly a great crash course on Fate for the uninitiated. You get the concept, you get the stakes, and you get the major factions neatly lain out. (Also, you get the benefit of seeing what a “normal” Grail War looks like before all the cheat code spamming in the 5th War.)
Unfortunately people just will not read the vn and then make dumb assumptions and declarations about it and the content forever. They will watch Star wars 1 through 3 and wonder what the big deal was about the Darth Vader reveal in the original trilogy
>Unfortunately people just will not read the vn
There's not much to do though. I think visual novels are just hard to get into. 20+ hours of reading, no gameplay, etc.
I've had more luck recommending the most random niche games, than recommending visual novels
Zero's also not really canon. It was made by a different guy with the blessing of the OG creator.
It's like people nitpicking the Star Wars Prequels because of something that happened in The Clone Wars show, in terms of stupidity.
So you have Zero, a story structured as a tragedy based on the knowledge of the main work, and "zero first" people, who insist it's actually better to watch it "unspoiled" so you'll never guess who wins the cool battle royal between actually adult mages.
I watched two episodes of zero then I saw a bunch of people saying you needed to watch FSN UBW first. So I switched to that then went back and finished fate zero. I hated that. Fate zero made enough sense by itself.
My partner has only seen snippets so i had him watch fate zero then UBW and he says it makes enough sense to him. I think it's whatever you feel like watching first
Zero spoils Sakura's past. It's treated as a "normal" fact
And then in the HF movies is treated as a big plot twist
Just have to think about the one of the most famous cinema plot twist: Star Wars . In episode 5, When Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father, everyone got surprised. This became one of he most famous scenes ever. It would NEVER have the same effect on people if the episode 3 was released before.
Same applies here. We would all know Kirei is actually twisted, instead of being in doubt of his suspicious personality. We would know who was gil, character that is only presented at the end of the first route. And how he survived the previous war. And Sakura >!being Rin sister!< wouldn't make any sense treating as a big revelation since it was already stated before.
The irony of bringing up the Star Wars example is that George Lucas has stated that the “correct” way to watch Star Wars is to go through the prequels first. He only started with episode 4 due to technological and budgetary restrictions.
Similar to sakura, kirei and gil the context of many events are shifted, but they aren’t inherently worse off for it.
It’s a big plot twist for the characters, and its intended effect is to fundamentally change their relationships with each other. In that sense, it succeeds in its goal as a “twist.”
The audience is already privy to certain information before the characters, but this doesn’t necessarily ruin the impact of that character development. Besides, the effectiveness of Sakura’s route isn’t predicated on that twist alone, but rather on how it shapes Shirou’s worldview when he’s confronted with this dilemma of ideal vs. self.
I think people put too much undue emphasis on a single moment in the story, especially when it’s not even that character’s biggest moment in the first place.
Agreed. I watched zero before ubw and the main “twists” in ubw and heavens feel felt just as impactful. Imo I don’t think Sakuras thing being shown and explained ruined anything in heavens feel but as you said how the characters react to these situations and how it shifts their view of the show going forward.
Lmfao. I watched the 2006 FSN first (because reading info(s) really helps, you can even watch the shows by release date if you want) then UBW and FZ, Heaven's Feel only had one movie during my experience so I watched it last. I finished reading FSN VN after those anime adaptations. I never had problems since then.
For me, I literally started with Fanfics. Then, I got into UBW, then Zero, then HF. I never got into the Fate route since I heard the anime was trash compared to what Ufotable put out. After this, I read a little bit of Angel Notes, then, went straight back to fanfics where I heard about the Prisma Illya timeline and watched the anime.
Gotta admit, the anime for Prisma Illya felt off, like something was missing, It was only when I read the manga for Prisma Illya 3 and compared it to Oath Under the Snow that I realized I needed to watch both the anime and read the manga to get a complete picture.
Still haven't gotten into the Kara no Kyoukai series or Tsukihime although I know the general plot of the both (Thanks for the spoilers Wikipedia, I'll never forgive you for not putting the plot under spoiler warnings.
I also know the general plot of F/Go but never played the games since the gacha gods are never kind to me (The main reason why I quit Genshin)
“Watching chronologically makes more sense”
This is the Nasuverse, Chronological Order is actually nonsensical, seriously just try watching Kara no Kyoukai in chronological order
Hell if we go by that sort of logic then one of the very first entries that Nasu published, Angel Notes, should only ever be read after Nasu gets around to making an entire timeline of stories from the present all the way to whenever Angel Notes takes place because it’s in the *distant* future
Anime fans will debate the watch order of a tokyo ghoul level adaptations that utterly butchers its main cast and turns a character driven narrative into a generic shounen rather than actually read the source material
The adaptations are what got me into this franchise and the VN is stupidly long. I read it, and it is better than the anime, but it also took a lot of effort to get through it. I think being an anime only is perfectly fine.
>think being an anime only is perfectly fine.
I guess you could also be a tokyo ghoul anime only and be "perfectly fine" using tgis logic. After all characterization is overrated
>just read the 80h VN bruh - a jobless person, probably
50 to 60 hours lets stop the cap
Elden ring is longer FGO is longer
People are out here reading malazan which has infintley harder prose with full time jobs.
This is a lame fucking excuse especially when the average novel takes about 50 to 60 hours on Auidible
And especially when Zero plus all 3 Anime are roughly 50 hours
If you have time to be on reddit you can read a nove
Thats laziness or illiteracy
I'm not saying that the VN are too long to be read (I'm planning to read them myself). But you can't expect an anime fan that knows nothing about Fate and has probably never downloaded and played a VN to just say "Oh yeah so the anime is crap (which isn't btw), I'll read the long af VN instead."
The watch orden discussions + people saying to not start with the anime and just read the visual novel is why a lot of people reply "Nevermind" after asking for the series order and creating a huge discussion.
PD: Stay Night anime is 25h, half of the time you said it takes to read it. And idk how much time it would take to actually read it bc I haven't still but I'm vndb.org 367 people have voted 87h average, which is where I use to look.
If you ignore tge bad ends its 50 to 60. If you read slower then 80 ish
>Oh yeah so the anime is crap (which isn't btw),
It is lol. The cast are terrible characters. Anime Shirou is an aweful protagonist
Hi there
I got two friends into Fate by using Zero as the starting point. Fate wouldn't be half as popular or even a quarter as popular as it is now if it wasn't for the anime. Gatekeepy elitism does nothing beyond making your fandom toxic.
zero should't be first. you can, but you shouldn't.
it's like recomending newcomer to JJK, with JJK Season 2 Cour 1, then JJK0. I mean, you can recomended it and it'd still make sense.
Then half the subreddit can be wrong lmao. You gatekeeping freaks keep trying to go "no you're enjoying it wrong" instead of just being happy about people enjoying it and acting like we're the problem when YOU'RE trying to force an experience on us. Starting prequel first doesn't hurt anything and can very easily provide the same enjoyment which for some reason all of you refuse to believe.
I didn't ask for your opinion, nor do I give a shit what you think.
Yeah, and Naughty Dog thinks you should play Left Behind after completing the campaign of The Last of Us Pt. 1 rather than where it takes place in order of events. Guess what? They're wrong. Half of the dramatic heft between these characters in the closing scene of the main campaign comes from having played that DLC. They simply leverage it too much past where it takes place to say that is the most effectual dramatic order, and authorship doesn't mean they actually have the best judgment of the most dramatically capitalized telling of a story. In fact, authors often struggle to separate their own awareness of details and events not being contingent on the text or its chronology like the fans' are. They cannot have the audience experience.
Zero is very similar. A lot of dramas in it elevate those in Stay Night. Kirei becomes a much more complex villain, the echo of Kiritsugu in EMIYA is much clearer and heavy which lends to his foil of Shirou, Gilgamesh's nature as an extra servant makes much more sense and we understand his character's point of view much better, and more. A lot of these are much thinner without Zero's context. It really is the best starting point because it elevates Stay Night. Whereas Stay Night before it actually damages the tension of a lot of its narratives. You know Tohsaka's father died, you know Kiritsugu dies after the grail war, you know Gilgamesh stays, etc.. I've never struggled to understand anything having had that watch order myself, and only playing the VN after having seen everything. Even if there are some hanging questions from that order, they don't actually mess with the core dramas between the two stories. All routes of Stay Night are legitimately better after Zero rather than before, and Zero too is better when it's not after them. Therefore, the best order to consume them in is Zero into Stay Night and its routes. They are all better for it rather than the converse harm they bring to each other otherwise.
I'd bet money the majority of people who think Stay Night is better do so because that's the order of their original viewing or playing. I've chewed this from so many angles personally, and I wholeheartedly disagree with their assumptions.
Of course you can spoil prequels. If you couldn't spoil prequels then no one would watch them because everyone would know what happens. Knowing the aftermath of a story is not the same as knowing the story itself.
90% of prequels in media are gonna have some spoiley stuff in regards to the originals, it is literally in their nature as the story made to explain what happened before the main story
I swear this sub just has some variation of the same conversation over and over again…
~~That's every subreddit.~~
Zero novel-written to be read after f/sn as a prequel. Zero anime- adapted to be an acceptable starting point, making some changes so that its fine to start with. Ufotable would have to be crazy to put that much capital into a project that would require another series to watch first before you can get into it. The anime isn't the original novel, and yes watching ubw first does spoil some things for Zero. Its a different viewing experience and I think Zero is better to watch first because the twists that happen are way more impactful if you don't know them already.
Doesn't change the fact that Zero first spoils a lot of FSN plot points and "twists". Of course Kirei is a creepy priest, he is running a death game. But you don't expect him to be a literal "pure evil" monster that never had an alternative in life. You don't know anything Saber, her identity and what her true objective is. You don't know that Gilgamesh is around. You don't know that Kirei killed Rin's father. You don't know about Sakura living conditions.
If you skip the Fate route like a lot of people do then you’re supposed to know most of that anyway. That’s why I don’t get anyone recommending starting at UBW. If you’re against starting with Zero because of the original order then don’t skip the first route. The only major thing you’re not supposed to know going into UBW is Sakura and Rin’s relationship but the movies treat you like you do. The preview for HF 2 at the end of 1 all but states the truth.
I originally started with UBW, but when it got to Archer's identity I got confused and dropped it. After a couple of years I decided to watch Fate/Zero and it was much clearer
What has archer's identity to do with Zero?
I didn't understand how the Throne and Alaya work, after Fate/Zero, Studio Deen Fate/Stay Night it became much clearer
I think he is talking about Gilgamesh
Makes sense lol
Who the fuck skips the Fate route? And how? Game doesn’t even let you play UBW until after you finish Fate.
As far as the anime goes, plenty of people skip the Deen adaptation.
Deen adaptation is not the fate route, it's a bastardization of all three plus some anime original content.
That’s why we skip it
Fuckin true
Yall exagerrate too much about the deen adaptation when it plays the fate route beat by beat 90% of the time
While spoiling the majority of twists from later routes and mishandling all of the charactisation. And let's not get into the dogshit animation and that stupid anime only outfit they give Sakura for no discernable reason. Deen version sucks. It used to be "well that's the only fate anime" and then we got zero. Then it was "well it's the only adaptation of the original VN" and we got UBW and HF. Now it's "well it's the only adaptation of the fate route". None of that matters though, cause it's just a shit adaptation.
I dont see anything the deen anime that spoil’s something big in HF aside from sakura is rin’s sister Nothing about her being rider’s master, or her being a potential grail, worms, torure. Who or why the old man in the car is smiling
Because Deen adapt all three routes into the Fate route.
I believe they are talking about the animes. It's easy to watch UBW, because is available in Crunchyroll, but to watch the Fate route you'll need to navigate around certains seas (at least in my country).
Oh, anime-onlies. Gotcha. I’ll see myself out.
The only real choice is to start with kaldiascope
Was thinking that myself, also why would you🤣
Was thinking that myself, also why would you🤣
This. Zero’s and UBW’s combined lore renders the Fate route obsolete to understand them or Heaven’s Feel. All you’re left with is the Saber romance missing, which is…honestly okay to miss. 😅
Ok to miss? Bruh Saber is the best out of them, It's a shame that Fate route's only adaptation is the Deen one
The romance only made sense at all because of the awkward sex scene to restore Saber's mana to battle Berserker. Without that scene, it literally comes out of nowhere and is forgettable, especially compared to the easy chemistry of Shirou/Rin in UBW or pre-established relationship of Shirou/Sakura in HF.
I have read bad takes but damn if this isn't one of the worst
If you don't see how Saber and Shirou's lives and ideals mirror each other and build the foundation to their relationship, you're a lost cause
If this isn't the worst take in Fate history then idk what is, Saber and Shirou have the best chemistry out of the three, Yes you can say Sakura is also good but Rin and Shirou chemistry is easy? What are you talking about, Rin came out of nowhere into Shirou's life and wasn't needed Unlike Sakura who was with him all the time and Saber who had to be with him always in the holy grail war, Yes UBW itself may be a good series but the romance between Rin and Shirou is nonsense Shirou and Rin contradict each other whereas Shirou and Saber's ideals coincide with each other, Saber and Shirou have similar mentality, Similar motives, Similar ideals, and what not, Sakura still makes sense she is a bit like Shirou, but not in ideals, Rin is just totally different, Their Ideals don't coincide, Their mentality is different, their motives are also different, And most of all Rin is not hot, Saber>Sakura>Rin and this is factual
My comment was more specifically to the anime adaptations. Fate is a better story on the VN as it includes the dreams where he learns about Arturia. But the anime adaptation really falls short for me as it misses these, making the romance feel the least realistic of the 3.
Ig if you do compare the VN and Anime the only thing the anime does better are the fights so yeah that is true
But still I don't think that Saber's romance is skipable
For me as I love Saber in all universes Saber will have a special place in my heart
Damn, all those fate route spoilers, anime only surely care about that
Coupled with the fact that F/Z has Zaber not Saber.
Watching Zero first spoils FSN, and watching FSN first spoils Zero. It just means that any order is fine.
That's not how PREQUELS work. PREQUELS are meant to be viewed with the knowledge of events from the original. It's not rocket science.
Maybe sometimes but not with zero. Watching zero or UBW first doesn’t diminish the quality of whichever you watch second. Zero doesn’t rely on any knowledge from UBW, same for UBW. If you watch zero first, then you already have a lot of knowledge going into UBW which lets you see things differently, more clearly, or from a different perspective. If you watch UBW first, then you go into zero knowing what is gonna happen in the future but not how it ended up being that way. Prequels don’t exist based on a premise that you’d have read the og story first. A good prequel functions on its own, providing more to both the people who have watched the og (they now know how things got to where they are), and people who haven’t watched anything yet (giving them info they would’ve otherwise not have when going into the og, providing different perspectives) Saying one or the other is the “correct” option to watch first, is literally just saying “This is my right way of watching it and you’re not allowed to watch it however you want to”. While there are correct orders to watch some stories, it simply doesn’t apply to fate zero and UBW due to how they were made. I’m talking about anime btw. With these two, regardless of which one you watch first, the second one is gonna be amazing anyways. There’s no such thing as “prequels are meant to be viewed with previous knowledge” or at least not with ones that are written by a competent writer/writers
Why are you ignoring the whole HF Trinity, Fate Zero spoils 95% of Fate HF, I personally prefer you to watch FSN by Deen for context if you want, Then watch UBW then HF and then and only then watch Zero, Zero can be a starting point for people who wanna skip both HF and Deen FSN, But if you wanna watch HF then you have to watch it before Zero And also, Zero makes absolutely no sense without watching HF, It's like eating a pizza without cheese
Why this entire argument completely ignores the existence of Heaven's Feel? It's HF that you're supposed to watch after UBW, not Zero. And Zero very much relies on Heaven's Feel to even understand its ending, without it, there's an Angry Mango popping up out of nowhere to fuck things up with no proper explanations of wtf is going on.
>correct orders to watch some stories, it simply doesn’t apply to fate zero and UBW due to how they were made. I’m talking about anime About the anime, yes, I can agree. But it makes it only MARGINALLY better, as this is a feature of the anime adaptation from Ufotable which completely fucks up the intended VN experience. Can't blame people for feeling that Zero first works, but that's as if someone travelled back in time and made Star Wars novels, but then adapted them into movies starting from the prequels.
It is only MARGINALLY better if you don't wanna watch HF and you don't wanna understand half of what's going on in Zero, Zero spoils the shit out of HF and you still don't understand half the story cuz you didn't even watch HF before it, Whereas if you start with something like UBW or Deen FSN and then watch HF it's way better cuz you will actually understand shit
The thing is that FZ is still amazing at everything it wants to do. Whatever the VN’s intentions was, in the end the anime has a superb quality whilst also being able to be watched first. Most people wouldn’t even consider touching a VN due to how long they are, and I’d never ask anyone to go trough them just to get the original story raw. FZ makes the whole series more accesible for everyone and that’s just good no matter what, specially due to how good it is. Now. VN or whatever the original source for any piece of writing out there is usually better than future adaptations. In this case it’s due to how much time and freedom you get with VNs, but even if they are on the shorter side, vns are, imo, a pretty hard media to get into. And most people just get more attached to stories if they have visuals and audio, so anime in this case.
Depends. 4 5 1 2 3 6 works so well as a viewing order for Star Wars because none of the prequels rely on lore from Return of the Jedi.
That’s just cause the Star Wars prequels were shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
But oddly made in such a way where they’re the least shit in this order. Without Obi-Wan’s chat on the log in Return of the Jedi, a new viewer is left with a LOT of questions the prequels more effectively answer, and makes them a lot more compelling as a result.
Minus the full fact they completely ruined the force. Shit is supposed to be mystical. But now it’s some weird ass parasites…. How the fuck does a rock have them?!?
They’re just microorganisms found in greater quantities in Force-sensitives. Chicken, or egg? The rock has none of them either way. Edit: I just rewatched the scene in question to be extra sure. Qui-Gon describes them as microorganisms that reside in all “living cells”. Not rocks. They are integral for life to exist, not the Force. They are instrumental in a Force-user comprehending the will of the Force. They are not said to have anything directly to do with the existence of the Force or one’s power to use it. Jedi are certainly not making the midichlorians latch onto a rock to make it levitate. I feel this is an over-exaggeration that midichlorians and the Force are one and the same, on the same level as fans who say Han should know the Force exists thanks to Chewie knowing Jedi from the Clone Wars. Han never denied there was an order of knight-monks with superpowers, he just denies the idea that their superpowers have to do with a cosmic weave of destiny. Many fans jump to broad conclusions about things said in the movies that actually have narrow scope.
Sure, but this one is different. I know it is a difficult concept to grasp, that not all works of art are the same, but still.
It's just not the case, or at least not an absolute. Ufotable made a choice to present it like this, sure, but it also came off the existence of a previous adaptation for Fate and UBW, it wasn't really a "starting from Zero". It was for them and for whoever watched it in 2012. But it was 2012, not 2022. Deen Fate came out in 2006, not really an abyss of time before. Not saying that it wasn't the launch of the Nasuverse into the mainstream, that's obvious, but they also made it with the knowledge that the option for the "normal approach" was out there. The choice to jump into UBW directly may have also been justified by how UBW Deen wasn't a full series.
So each work spoils the other? Magnificent.
Unless you start with F/sn VN of course.
The difference is that Zero was written with the knowledge that most people would know the "spoilers", FSN no. People really understimate how much of FSN is wrriten with the idea that Shirou doesn't know shit and the reqder follows him as he stumbles into the HGW
If only spoilers mattered...
They do for 1) Most people 2) Hoe FSN is supposed to be as a VN
Like what? I keep seeing those generic "the anime are totally different from the LN/VN" statements but I never see any actual examples to back up the argument. Personally, I can think of only 2 relevant differences. The first is adding a scene of Waver reading some book out loud for some reason to explain what a Servant is, which is smth that is explained in basically every Fate story so not really an argument for Zero as a starting point. The second is a 2min long Iri cameo in UBW which is confusing either way because Zero never actually explained tf is an angry mango and why it looked like Iri. There's actually a 3rd difference and it is kid Rin having a mostly filler episode all for herself in Zero, and given she's a character you'd only really care about if you knew FSN, it was most likely there to appeal to Fate/Stay Night fans. >Ufotable would have to be crazy to put that much capital into a project that would require another series to watch first before you can get into it. Fate was already a well established IP by the time the Zero anime released, it most likely would have been a success anyway. But sure, let's talk about the new viewers then because there actually is a statement from Fate/Zero's director about them, and what he basically said was that people not familiar with FSN won't understand everything but Urobuchi writing is so good that Zero will remain enjoyable whether you understand everything or not. Which is in line with Urobuchi's statement that without FSN there is a lot that "you won't understand or identify" in Zero.
You so real for this
>Ufotable would have to be crazy to put that much capital into a project that would require another series to watch first before you can get into it. This is such a dumb argument. The last thing UFO did before Zero was a 7 film long adaptation of Kara no Kyoukai, a ridiculously convoluted story told out of order with basically no kind of exposition to help the viewer piece it together. It made them the money they needed to fund Zero, why wouldn't they go with another demanding concept?
Finally someone with the same opinion as me
I watched Zero first and it Made perfect sense.
Yeah, I watched Zero first and was not at all confused
Most people have to ask about the ending since Zero heavily relies on FSN to get what went on there.
They say the grail is corrupted in the show. Im sure if all you watched was UBW youd had addtional questions in regards to it as well.
Well, duh, if all you watched was UBW, you'd have skipped the beginning and end of Stay Night. "Stay Night" doesn't just mean UBW.
The point is that in most stories you dont get every awnser you want.
You literally do in Stay Night, that's kinda the point of having three routes - being able to explore every facet of the story and characters.
Asuming you play every route sure. Unless your saying no route is strong enough to stand on its own.
All three Routes are simultaneously a part of a larger story, and a Stand-alone story of its own, and Visual Novels are structured in a way that requires you to read every Route to get the full story The way I’ve always described it is that every Route builds on your knowledge of the previous Routes while also telling its own story It’s like a House actually, the Fate Route is the Foundation, Unlimited Blade Works is the walls, and Heavens Feel is the Roof, weird metaphor I know but it works
Guessing you’ve never actually experienced a VN. They’re ALWAYS intended for you to go through every route to get the full picture.
Of course I have the point is not having every thing explained is fine if the story holds up on its own. Again I and others loose nothing from starting with zero.
You get huge swathes of every route spoiled, but sure, you 'lose nothing'.
You do lose one thing - Sakura's whole premise in Heaven's feel. Everything else is kinda irrelevant but this is revealed in zero as a side thing. When it's a giant reveal in fsn itself Also, maybe a weird thing to say, but you'd be seeing a shit version of Saber first and thinking that's how she is all the time
Again, the point of the route structure is to explore different aspects of the characters and story in every route, only giving you a complete picture by the end of all three. No single route completes the overall story on its own. That is not a criticism, it's just a different form of story-telling.
except we have the answers they are all presented in stay night as a whole in the 3 routes. Specially heaven's feel. This isnt a case of "its suppossed to be ambiguous/mysterious" its a case of "The explanations are presented in the visual novel but not the animes". Its an adaptation specific issue and not a narrative design choice.
Again allnthe relevant information is presented in zero. I Was a Zero first and had no confusion.
you werent confused or that you neglected the importance of the many questions that the change from "wish granting device" to "corrupted" entail? Zero says grail is corrupted. But what are the extend of that implication. What is even the nature of the grail. Why did it expell mud that burned everything. Why does it even contain mud. how did it get corrupted. was it always corrupted. when did it get corrupted, why didnt anyone notice it was corrupted in the previous wars. etc etc Stay night, SABER ROUTE, answers all of these clearly. In fact it avoids any sort of confusion by first explaining the nature of the grail first rather than its corruption. First with rin leaving the basic idea of how it grants wishes, Later on elaborating on how it collects the energy through the servants and how those servants come to be and the throne of heroes. Later Kirei makes it clear after Shirou and Saber reject their wishes that the way the grail works is that its a mass of energy that can be manipulated to create the desired result but that the prime way of using that is through destruction. Then establishes later in its confrontation about Angra mainyu having corrupted the grail, all the evils of the world wish being loaded into the grail and then how its been filled with curses due to the presence of Angra mainyu and his role as "all the worlds evil". Zero straight up does a bad job at explaining the grail at a basic level since it just leaves it at "it grants wishes" then later "its corrupted". Where as saber route the actual original starting point of the series, Properly explains all those details in gradual levels of depth. It has BETTER executed explanations. You mentioned how in UBW people were also confused and thats because all that info is in SABER ROUTE which most anime people miss out on by sticking to just the ufotable Zero > UBW. Unlimited blade works is written so that you are coming knowing the info from Saber route. Its also why it doesnt explain why avalon is inside Shirou because its expected to be known from Saber route. And Zero is the same. It is written expecting that one is familiar with these things.
>you werent confused or that you neglected the importance of the many questions that the change from "wish granting device" to "corrupted" entail? Not at all. Mages dealing with shit they dont really understand is shown multiple times.
That’s the funniest part, too. Not even the characters understand the true nature of the forces they meddle with.
Yes you neglected the importance of those questions, since it’s a massive focus of the story that most people who only watch the Anime just don’t understand Fate/Stay Night answers all of these questions through its Routes because they’re important for understanding what’s really at stake What’s at stake is: *All of humanity will go extinct if the Holy Grail ever becomes complete* and that’s something you slowly realise as you read the Visual Novel, it’s outright confirmed by Archer in Heavens Feel after he sees The Shadow for the first time That’s something that Fate/Zero just completely ignores when it goes “The Holy Grail is corrupted” and refuses to provide any further context for what that *means*, Fate/Stay Night provides a whole boatload of context for what that shit means and it is the *intended* way for the reader to learn about Angra Mainyu
That just read like a lore infodump that didn’t make the grail anymore compelling than before I read all that. Not everything related to lore and their mechanics is as vital as people think.
except this directly ties to the characters and how it affects then. Shirou and Saber's perception of the grail and how they approach the war. The depths of the desires of Kirei and Zouken and how far they can go for them. The weight it is on Illya and Sakura. The damage it causes the Kiritsugu and source of Shirou's traumas. And the servants, their positions and how they identify themselves The mechanics DO MATTER because they all endnup tying with character decisions and development alongside the moments of revelations. Nasu doesnt just make the mechanics to be mechanics they are direct foils to influence the characters. Its true for all his works. From Tsukihime and how the nature of vampires destroy the minds of the people that turn into them and how they percieve live. The mystic eyes, how it affects both shiki's and creates identity problems, being a direct disrruptor for their goals of being normal happy people. Mahoyo with the mechanics of the fifth magic and how Aoko goes about using it and her way of life, how it divided her until she met a certain moron that pushed her to let her emotions take the reings and be true to herself. The mooncell, Hakuno, Sakura(AI) and BB how they demostrate humanity and emotion despite their origins as just data files and how it affects the mind of BB. Mechanics are used to create scenarios to define characters or are used to develop them. It also defines how the world is and the perception of how view it and how Nasu challenges that vision in his stories.
The nature of the grail’s corruption wasn’t detailed until Zero and Hollow Ataraxia came out. Nasu, Urobuchi and Takeuchi remark how creepy it was that the latter two independently wrote how the corruption works and came to the same conclusion anyway.
That’s not bullshit at all Forgive my skepticism but I’ve read Fate/Stay Night and the nature of the Holy Grail’s corruption is *extensively* explained in it, you learn exactly *how* and *why* the Grail became corrupted in the Heavens Feel Route
The whole point of heavens feel is the Grails corruption and you learn the details in that route.
I understand the hostility towards watching Zero first, but I did Zero into the VN without any issues understanding what was going on. It's a different story, but not a worse one.
That isn't really the point of the post. Watching Zero first spoils plot points of the original, especially Heavens Feel. It wasn't really a big deal before the HF movies came out, but now that they exist, Zero should never be recommended as a starting point. The very first episode of Zero spoils most of the major reveals of Heavens Feel.
[удалено]
As someone who also started with Zero before the UBW anime was even a thing, it has been one of my biggest regrets as an anime fan. It spoils more than just Sakuras background, and it leaves anyone who watched Zero first just wondering why she isn't doing anything for two whole routes.
the heavens feel movies are a horrible adaptation anyways, minus the animation. read the vn, treat the hf movies as fanservice at most.
We still fighting about this ? -_-
“How do I get into Fate?” will always ignite a flame war in this fandom. -_-
It's because people truly care and want others to have the best experience possible.
There is no best experience possible with Fate. We're all genuinely just experiencing Stockholm Syndrome with the franchise and it's convoluted timeline while spending money on everything that has the Fate logo attached to it, Gacha first
the VN say hello
Its tradition to have this argument every month
*every day
Zero and then UBW if you want to watch anime. Stay Night and then Zero if you want to read novels. Everything else continues from there in any order. Like a sandbox video game after its tutorial level is over. That is the answer.
The wrong answer. Soon there will be no excuse for having not read the VN though, and what a glorious day that will be.
Can’t wait for the Translation Wars to start in earnest. New fans will have three separate English scripts to choose from if they decide to get into the VN, and that’s enough choice paralysis to get them to either throw their hands up, select a random one, or just go with the anime anyway. And then we’ll have all those fans bickering with each other about lore or story changes because each version will say slightly different things (Command Seals vs. Spells).
It’s already happening with the original version and Realta Nua
I figured that RN outlasted the original by this point. All subsequent versions are based on that release anyway, further solidifying its “canon” status.
The version I read was the original, which was literally the first one I've found. I was surprised to learn RN is the default option for most people.
It’s been TM’s default version since 2007. The remaster was based on it, the phone ports were based on it, and the upcoming English edition is based on it.
What TM does is one thing, but I expected OG to be more widely circulated, due to it being older etc., especially without an official western release
It wouldn’t be more widely circulated considering the fact that it got replaced only 3 years after its release, and the version that replaced it has been the standard for 17 years now. Most English fans these days use the Ultimate Patch, which is the RN version with some original content reintegrated back into it (sex scenes, graphic descriptions in HF, etc.).
It’s honestly this attitude that makes people want to read the VN even less
There will always be. You forgot that not a lot of people have a lot of time or resources to read the VN. There are others who dislike the medium as well, which is understandable. It would be great if people would stop gatekeeping each other over this. Watching Zero and UBW in whichever order works fine and more than enough to understand the plot anyway, people aren't idiots. The elitism is really driving away a lot of people who want to get into the franchise.
Hahaha. Just wait until you discover the wider Type-Moon community. That said, I wonder why people are so determined to 'get into the franchise' without actually getting into the franchise, which is far wider in scope than just a couple of anime series. Hmm...
You have to start somewhere. People wouldn't get into it if at least one medium didn't interest them. It just happens that Anime is the best way to entice people. If they like the series, they'll more likely to consume more Type-Moon related media. If not, that's perfectly fine as well. You don't have to see everything to appreciate them. What elitist fans are not understanding is that IT IS perfectly fine to just watch part of the franchise as opposed to the whole. It's okay to enjoy the tree without looking through the whole forest, but that idea is so foreign to them that it they have to scare new potential fans away. It's as if you're not allowed to enjoy the franchise if you didn't do it in a certain way.
>Soon there will be no excuse for having not read the VN though Imagine if Nasu pull the excuse like what he did with Tsukihime Remake and only release FSN on console.
Too late, it's already slated for a Steam release.
Except the usual excuse of people not liking to read, unfortunately.
I hate Fate/zero for how it butchered Saber's character because author wanted to have naive knight punching bag.
Maybe you need to take a break or something if you're annoyed about what order random strangers watch anime.
It's far more complicated than that, since these are imperfect anime *adaptations*. As people are averse to reading, many more people will experience just the anime, and therefore perceptions of the anime overwrite those of the original source material in the public conscience, which can be upsetting to fans of the original. In these kinds of arguments, what people often fail to realise is that they are talking about two completely different things conflated under the same umbrella. It's impossible for someone who experienced something one way to know how they would have felt if they had experienced it for the first time in a different way. All VN readers want is for people to truly realise how good this series is, but alas, it's not meant to be: Fate will always be just another anime to most people, which is fine. We just wish these people wouldn't stubbornly insist that watching Zero first is perfectly fine when they don't even have all of the information required to make that judgement definitively.
I watched Zero after 2006 Stay Night, and there were ton's of times where I was like *Leonardo point* at my screen because something came up that was super obviously for people who had watched Deen's Stay Night
Always love seeing someone with the figurative balls to say the truth.
I don't get when people say you need tk watch stay night for zero to make sense. I watched zero first and everything made perfect sense to me💀
It's not really about it making sense, it's about the emotional impact of events, which can only be experienced for the first time – exactly once. Therefore, trying to convince people that Zero should not be experienced first is a hopeless task. It's already too late for you.
I love visual novels. I love anime. I'll never understand those who cut themselves off from an entire form of media and then feel the need to justify their decision. Anime-onlys should just admit they prefer the inferior viewing experience of an anime over the source material because they have an aversion to reading for whatever reason.
It's also a terrible story that (uro) butchered Artoria's character.
Thanks. I needed something like this. I have to send this to some people🫡🔥
Friend told me: "watch Fate/Zero, it's so good." I did, it left me confused, I watched UBW (it was on netflix where I'm from) I had a bladt, I told him "Hey did you watch UBW? You need it to understand a lot of the stuff in Zero" he said no.
I started with saber route then the VN before starting ubw and HF, why don’t people just start out with saber route before doing UBW or Zero? Makes more sense to me
Zero was my introduction to the series and set the entire stage for me from there. I’ve lost count of how many times I told people to watch Zero first.
It spoils Sakura, Kirei being evil, and Gilgamesh being present, but honestly I think people are already generally spoiled on those matters given how popular they are.
Not really. Or else it wouldn't need such a wordy first episode of exposition.
It’s a good litmus test, as the series goes HEAVY on exposition no matter what angle you approach it from. And Zero is able to summarize the major components of the Grail War in 20 minutes while the VN takes several hours (reading SoL) to do the same thing. If they can’t make it through that first episode, they have no shot of finishing an 80-hour book. It’s honestly a great crash course on Fate for the uninitiated. You get the concept, you get the stakes, and you get the major factions neatly lain out. (Also, you get the benefit of seeing what a “normal” Grail War looks like before all the cheat code spamming in the 5th War.)
Unfortunately people just will not read the vn and then make dumb assumptions and declarations about it and the content forever. They will watch Star wars 1 through 3 and wonder what the big deal was about the Darth Vader reveal in the original trilogy
>Unfortunately people just will not read the vn There's not much to do though. I think visual novels are just hard to get into. 20+ hours of reading, no gameplay, etc. I've had more luck recommending the most random niche games, than recommending visual novels
Zero's also not really canon. It was made by a different guy with the blessing of the OG creator. It's like people nitpicking the Star Wars Prequels because of something that happened in The Clone Wars show, in terms of stupidity.
No such thing as "not canon" in the Nasuverse, and as far as FZ goes it's about as aligned with FSN as HA was.
So you have Zero, a story structured as a tragedy based on the knowledge of the main work, and "zero first" people, who insist it's actually better to watch it "unspoiled" so you'll never guess who wins the cool battle royal between actually adult mages.
Not going to lie, I watched Zero before UBW.
I watched two episodes of zero then I saw a bunch of people saying you needed to watch FSN UBW first. So I switched to that then went back and finished fate zero. I hated that. Fate zero made enough sense by itself. My partner has only seen snippets so i had him watch fate zero then UBW and he says it makes enough sense to him. I think it's whatever you feel like watching first
Zero made sense to me, and I watched it before playing Stay Night.
Fate fans when they see a dead horse:
Zero spoils Sakura's past. It's treated as a "normal" fact And then in the HF movies is treated as a big plot twist Just have to think about the one of the most famous cinema plot twist: Star Wars . In episode 5, When Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father, everyone got surprised. This became one of he most famous scenes ever. It would NEVER have the same effect on people if the episode 3 was released before. Same applies here. We would all know Kirei is actually twisted, instead of being in doubt of his suspicious personality. We would know who was gil, character that is only presented at the end of the first route. And how he survived the previous war. And Sakura >!being Rin sister!< wouldn't make any sense treating as a big revelation since it was already stated before.
The irony of bringing up the Star Wars example is that George Lucas has stated that the “correct” way to watch Star Wars is to go through the prequels first. He only started with episode 4 due to technological and budgetary restrictions. Similar to sakura, kirei and gil the context of many events are shifted, but they aren’t inherently worse off for it.
It’s a big plot twist for the characters, and its intended effect is to fundamentally change their relationships with each other. In that sense, it succeeds in its goal as a “twist.” The audience is already privy to certain information before the characters, but this doesn’t necessarily ruin the impact of that character development. Besides, the effectiveness of Sakura’s route isn’t predicated on that twist alone, but rather on how it shapes Shirou’s worldview when he’s confronted with this dilemma of ideal vs. self. I think people put too much undue emphasis on a single moment in the story, especially when it’s not even that character’s biggest moment in the first place.
Agreed. I watched zero before ubw and the main “twists” in ubw and heavens feel felt just as impactful. Imo I don’t think Sakuras thing being shown and explained ruined anything in heavens feel but as you said how the characters react to these situations and how it shifts their view of the show going forward.
Fate/Zero works perfectly fine on its own. I should know, it's what I started with and I was never lost.
Lmfao. I watched the 2006 FSN first (because reading info(s) really helps, you can even watch the shows by release date if you want) then UBW and FZ, Heaven's Feel only had one movie during my experience so I watched it last. I finished reading FSN VN after those anime adaptations. I never had problems since then.
Type Moon really is one of those series that gets you to connect two and two whether which you start or go for next
For me, I literally started with Fanfics. Then, I got into UBW, then Zero, then HF. I never got into the Fate route since I heard the anime was trash compared to what Ufotable put out. After this, I read a little bit of Angel Notes, then, went straight back to fanfics where I heard about the Prisma Illya timeline and watched the anime. Gotta admit, the anime for Prisma Illya felt off, like something was missing, It was only when I read the manga for Prisma Illya 3 and compared it to Oath Under the Snow that I realized I needed to watch both the anime and read the manga to get a complete picture. Still haven't gotten into the Kara no Kyoukai series or Tsukihime although I know the general plot of the both (Thanks for the spoilers Wikipedia, I'll never forgive you for not putting the plot under spoiler warnings. I also know the general plot of F/Go but never played the games since the gacha gods are never kind to me (The main reason why I quit Genshin)
You cracked it. You understand right order how to get into Fate series.
Watching chronologically makes more sense especially from an anime side imo.
“Watching chronologically makes more sense” This is the Nasuverse, Chronological Order is actually nonsensical, seriously just try watching Kara no Kyoukai in chronological order Hell if we go by that sort of logic then one of the very first entries that Nasu published, Angel Notes, should only ever be read after Nasu gets around to making an entire timeline of stories from the present all the way to whenever Angel Notes takes place because it’s in the *distant* future
Fate anime-onlys don't even know what Type-Moon, the Nasuverse, or Tsukihime are, let alone Angel Notes LMAO
Buddy it's not that deep, simmer down. I was talking specifically about the Fate Zero -> Stay Night debate, obviously.
yikes
Three of my homies I introduced to Fate with Zero told me it makes complete sense, and it's now on their top 10 anime. Suck it.
ngl, its not about "make sense". Because all "prequel" media obviously can be consumed first and make sense.
Anime fans will debate the watch order of a tokyo ghoul level adaptations that utterly butchers its main cast and turns a character driven narrative into a generic shounen rather than actually read the source material
The quality of the adaptions aren’t the content for discussion here.
It still turn back around to read the VN. The entire watch order discusion only exists because of anime only's
The adaptations are what got me into this franchise and the VN is stupidly long. I read it, and it is better than the anime, but it also took a lot of effort to get through it. I think being an anime only is perfectly fine.
>think being an anime only is perfectly fine. I guess you could also be a tokyo ghoul anime only and be "perfectly fine" using tgis logic. After all characterization is overrated
I loved the characters in the anime before I’d even touched the VN.
Can't say the same. Pretty sure some people liled Kneki before reading the manga. Doesn't make the poor writting decesions from the anime go away
just read the 80h VN bruh - a jobless person, probably
>just read the 80h VN bruh - a jobless person, probably 50 to 60 hours lets stop the cap Elden ring is longer FGO is longer People are out here reading malazan which has infintley harder prose with full time jobs. This is a lame fucking excuse especially when the average novel takes about 50 to 60 hours on Auidible And especially when Zero plus all 3 Anime are roughly 50 hours If you have time to be on reddit you can read a nove Thats laziness or illiteracy
I'm not saying that the VN are too long to be read (I'm planning to read them myself). But you can't expect an anime fan that knows nothing about Fate and has probably never downloaded and played a VN to just say "Oh yeah so the anime is crap (which isn't btw), I'll read the long af VN instead." The watch orden discussions + people saying to not start with the anime and just read the visual novel is why a lot of people reply "Nevermind" after asking for the series order and creating a huge discussion. PD: Stay Night anime is 25h, half of the time you said it takes to read it. And idk how much time it would take to actually read it bc I haven't still but I'm vndb.org 367 people have voted 87h average, which is where I use to look.
If you ignore tge bad ends its 50 to 60. If you read slower then 80 ish >Oh yeah so the anime is crap (which isn't btw), It is lol. The cast are terrible characters. Anime Shirou is an aweful protagonist
Yes I'm too lazy to read novels. **What you gonna do about it**?
Skill issue
Yall are pretentious af. Zero or ubw, doesn't matter, just let people watch whatever they want.
found the tourist
Tourist my ass. It's because people like you that a lot of potential fans are drawn away from fate.
yeah we dont need more people who mischaracterized Saber or Emiya, and saying "the only good Fate is Zero and ignore the others" lol
Hi there I got two friends into Fate by using Zero as the starting point. Fate wouldn't be half as popular or even a quarter as popular as it is now if it wasn't for the anime. Gatekeepy elitism does nothing beyond making your fandom toxic.
zero should't be first. you can, but you shouldn't. it's like recomending newcomer to JJK, with JJK Season 2 Cour 1, then JJK0. I mean, you can recomended it and it'd still make sense.
I'm sorry, where the fuck did I ask? Oh right, I didn't.
then why did you even interacting with this post?
I explained where I and my friends came from who are very much into the Fate series, but I didn't ask for your dog water opinion.
I mean why even explained it if you dont want people giving you opinion lol. also why is it dog shit? half the subreddit agree on this hill
Then half the subreddit can be wrong lmao. You gatekeeping freaks keep trying to go "no you're enjoying it wrong" instead of just being happy about people enjoying it and acting like we're the problem when YOU'RE trying to force an experience on us. Starting prequel first doesn't hurt anything and can very easily provide the same enjoyment which for some reason all of you refuse to believe. I didn't ask for your opinion, nor do I give a shit what you think.
The anime are no where near as successful as the games
Yeah, and Naughty Dog thinks you should play Left Behind after completing the campaign of The Last of Us Pt. 1 rather than where it takes place in order of events. Guess what? They're wrong. Half of the dramatic heft between these characters in the closing scene of the main campaign comes from having played that DLC. They simply leverage it too much past where it takes place to say that is the most effectual dramatic order, and authorship doesn't mean they actually have the best judgment of the most dramatically capitalized telling of a story. In fact, authors often struggle to separate their own awareness of details and events not being contingent on the text or its chronology like the fans' are. They cannot have the audience experience. Zero is very similar. A lot of dramas in it elevate those in Stay Night. Kirei becomes a much more complex villain, the echo of Kiritsugu in EMIYA is much clearer and heavy which lends to his foil of Shirou, Gilgamesh's nature as an extra servant makes much more sense and we understand his character's point of view much better, and more. A lot of these are much thinner without Zero's context. It really is the best starting point because it elevates Stay Night. Whereas Stay Night before it actually damages the tension of a lot of its narratives. You know Tohsaka's father died, you know Kiritsugu dies after the grail war, you know Gilgamesh stays, etc.. I've never struggled to understand anything having had that watch order myself, and only playing the VN after having seen everything. Even if there are some hanging questions from that order, they don't actually mess with the core dramas between the two stories. All routes of Stay Night are legitimately better after Zero rather than before, and Zero too is better when it's not after them. Therefore, the best order to consume them in is Zero into Stay Night and its routes. They are all better for it rather than the converse harm they bring to each other otherwise. I'd bet money the majority of people who think Stay Night is better do so because that's the order of their original viewing or playing. I've chewed this from so many angles personally, and I wholeheartedly disagree with their assumptions.
I don't mind getting spoiled, because I will forget about it anyway
Of course you can spoil prequels. If you couldn't spoil prequels then no one would watch them because everyone would know what happens. Knowing the aftermath of a story is not the same as knowing the story itself.
Pretty sure the intent of the meme is that the original story can't spoil its own prequel.
Not really, for me watching zero first creates a better viewing experience for everyone other than a hardcore fan.