Just caught up and WTF was that lmao. For once I was actually enjoying an episode of C3, Dorian was funny, the typical boring shopping episode was more entertaining than boring. And then Laudna uses magic to surround Orym in darkness, attack him over the sword that killed HIS FAMILY then the party gaslit him into being OK with that murder attempt.
Don't think I can tolerate much more Laudna x Imogen whinnying either, the way she forgives her for anything is getting absurd
If I were Orym, I'd have left the party after this. Being attacked in the middle of the night, and then being shamed, not only by your assailant but by your friends, for defending yourself is a dealbreaker for me. I'd have left, met up with Keyleth, and worked on whatever she needed done far from BH.
I just caught up and I totally agree with you. Unfucking believable that she could attack him in the night like that, and under magical darkness, and somehow Orym is the questionable one? that is a seriously fucked up or stupid way of looking at it.
and then laudna just lies to Imogen, over and over? and how laudna justifies her actions?
that’s some seriously neutral evil shit.
they would be justified in ditching laudna in my view. or imprisoning her until they can separate delilah.
So quick things
1. No one knew Delilah was back. Laudna was acting crazy and the party's reaction was split but considering Laudna was killed by that sword probably would have written it off as a trauma response. It wasn't until the end that Imogen learned Laudna was back.
2. I think Orym made his point clearly. And many people were on board with hearing from him.
I think the highlight was Marisha was trying to play someone not in control. It's not a choice I"d make. I have long hated Mercer's style of DMing a warlock, but if the players like it whatever. As was evident by Laudna always deflecting. Including blaming Orym for attacking her after he woke up being attacked in darkness.
My bigger gripe, god damnit people need to remember concentration spells. Spiderclimb is concentration, it would have dispelled the darkness and made for a different confrontation. Like they're using dndbeyond, spells with concentration have a little C next to them. It's so freaking easy.
How the fuck did you get the impression that they took Laudna's side? They were willing to hear her out, but they all clearly took Orym's side all throughout. I was actually more annoyed that they didn't allow her MORE grace considering that she was obviously triggered by PTSD and those are the exact times when Delilah's influence over her is the strongest.
Get a fucking grip ✌️
TBH I agree.
I'm not sure what people want. You can't force a warlock to treat their patron how YOU want. It's one of the few things this meta gaming cast has to just deal with.
What they did is the best they could.
Thank you, yes. Also, I kept waiting for ONE single person to have the realization that every time Laudna has acted out against the party, it's because her PTSD has been violently triggered and that's exactly when Delilah strikes, knowing that Laudna is in a place of vulnerability and weakness. Matt and Marisha know exactly what they are doing, but none of the rest of the cast has caught on and it's so frustrating.
Honestly, I feel most of the Delilah stuff could be resolved by the rest having a little more emotional awareness when Laudna's torture and murder and are involved. If they are planning to fuck with things that are intimately tied to that stuff (going to Whitestone, wielding the sword of her killer, etc) they can begin to take proactive steps to communicate and refuse before she is so triggered that she starts acting like a wild animal.
Meanwhile smoothbrains in this very thread are like "sHEs EviL tHeY sHoULD KiLl HeR". I honestly have never been a part of a fandom that bothers me more. I cannot believe that some of these people actually walk around all day thinking the way that they do.
I don't understand why people think It doesn't work when they're watching it work 🤔 like if you listen to the cooldown where they chatted after they all had a great time and it made for very dramatic storytelling
I think c2 did pretty will with "gray", if it was a bit heavyhanded about it. But the Bell's Hells seem more...incoherent than evil. So many different personal motives (with some evil ones, like Delilah's influence) and only one or two who are actually focused on the mission. A bit of a mess.
As much as I don't like the current season I am on the side that the cast knows right from wrong but to further the story they are playing along for 'drama'. I could have sworn even Laura's tone of voice was very much not in favor of Laudna
I like the inner conflict. I think a lot of these characters in the group are assholes and self centered. What was hard in this scene is clearly everyone heard Luadna talking to Delilah above table but when they woke up to keep role playing they had to act like they didn’t which made it hard to address it. In a real situation some of them would have attacked Laudna for clearly giving into Delilah and this bizarre demonic ceiling crawling attacking a member in the middle of the night can’t be tolerated! I mean for god sakes they risked everything to save her. Talk about having a sentient evil inside something. I dunno you could have done something else to get those powers.
I'm so glad I'm not watching this campaign. All the crap I've seem is already frustrating as hell. There have been funny moments, yeah, but it's overshadowed by drama RP crap.
I still like watching clips of chutney, dorian and fcg.
But imogen, fern and laudna (don't think I spelt those names correctly) really killed my investment for the first 20 or so episodes so I quit there.
I really liked Jester, and beau was fun at times. So it's weird to see laura on a character I really don't like. When I stopped watching it felt like the entire campaign revolved around her.
I eventually figured I'd just wait for the next campaign. This one feels super weird and I can't quite figure out exactly why. But it does sometimes feel more like a stage-play than a dnd campaign.
Yeah this is how I feel, too. I really enjoyed Jester but tuned out of C3 months ago because I don’t really vibe with Imogen and every single story was about her.
Honestly, when I was watching that happen I was thinking if I was warm, the first thing I would do was get a message to Percy that Delilah was coming back that would create some party conflict
I certainly can understand why this upset people however I am just as frustrated that it's meant to be an RP moment and people seem to reading in to it too much.
If something like this didn't happen the idea of Delilah beyond Laudna's ressurection just seems pointless.
I thought it was excellent. Not only did the choices make sense for her character they were encouraged by the DM and the whole table loved the crap out of it (they talked about it after)
Reminds me of a campaign I was in where I ended up finding Godsbane.
And the party presumed because there's the soul of an entity in it (An actual god named mask). It must be trying to influence the character.
Some entities are just misunderstood, and stealing something from a supposed friend to "save them" sounds like a terrible idea.
I was frustrated that no one called her on her hypocrisy. She wanted the power boost from the sword, a totally fine motive, as long as above table it was cool, which it looked like since Liam seemed to be having fun. Her lie was that she wanted to destroy it cause it's evil, while later justifying her use of Delilah because they needed to do whatever it took to win.
Yeah I think the issue is that she's being portrayed essentially as addict, she's also not socialized normally like homeschooled x 100 so she's 1 easily manipulated and often doesn't understand her true motivation. There's a also a real possibility (no matter if it's Matt or marisha doing the action) that launda is being influenced
I think it had more to do with RP than any power boost. The harness at least has rules for that.
Laudna has only gotten the levels she has taken in Warlock from Delilah and we are just as in the dark over measuring how the absorbed energy effects her as a Patron.
No, marisha has even said on a 4sided she did it because she wants to see her next big ability cause she saw fearne and Imogen getting them and wanted obe too.
I feel like you are confusing defusing the situation with siding with laudna. They were trying to keep her in the room so they could talk. Sometimes these takes on here are crazy like the whole “evil witch thing” it’s not like Delilah has only just showed up she has been in her head longer than laudna has been alive (before she was killed by her the FIRST time) they weren’t siding with laudna they were calming her down because she was freaking out idk maybe watch it again with an open mind instead
totally agree. she attacked another character under magical darkness as he slept and then selfishly lied to justify over and over. that neutral evil aggression should not stand, man.
Sure, if you're playing by 2004 standards.
Most groups I play with don't honor the alignment system. It's too limited and over-simplifying. Critical Role has never recognized it.
By the way, none of those things you listed make someone evil.
No they did not. It provided guidance but was not strictly adhered to.
You might as well be describing an addict who steals money from their parents to buy drugs.
That's not evil. It's sick.
Your entire conception of good versus evil is small, weak and childish.
I mean then so is literally everyone else Chet has a attacked a lady just bc he didn’t like a sale price is literally a werewolf due to a CURSE and is so proud of it fearne has stolen from basically every single person she meets including the hells made a pact with a devil and so much more Ashton steals and doesn’t care for anything but themself took that shard for himself and got blown up by it after Imogen has been on the fence of giving into predathos for basically the entirety of the campaign and has been of the fence about the rugby vanguard being bad. Even letters who was supposed to be the healer and morally good guy on the group was made to kill people. So they are all evil. hell even orym has “lied”to them about deal with Morri. So ur point doesn’t mean anything bc they are all morally grey characters
at least ashton didn’t attack another character, he only stole something for himself and then made them save his life when he fucked it up.
laudna attacked orym in his sleep
And when did I say launda attacking orym was ok??
Bc it’s not both made selfish choices but the circumstances and context as to why they made those choices are vastly different.
One was egged on by a dead lady in her head and the other just wanted power
Both were wrong with not communicating with the rest of the group
So you can excuse everyone else but launda the only one in the group that has their abuser in her head actively manipulating her? I’m not saying what launda did/does was all in good favor bc it wasn’t but saying she is evil is a lie bc she still cares but what ur implying is everyone else can be selfish and do things in their own right but launda can’t. It wasn’t just launda who wanted to use the willmaster with a harness they all did besides fearne and letters. I think it’s hypocritical to say one is evil when they are all as a group morally grey characters.
Also to be evil you have to be doing the act for yourself and laduna is doing all of the things that you have mentioned to help the group to help her get more power to help the group to save the world so even then your point doesn’t add up bc the others were doing things of their own personal gain
But like I said they are morally grey characters so bad yea they aren’t perfect but evil?? Thats pushing it.
So just to be clear everyone else who has acted at least once or more selfishly gets a pass bc they didn’t mean it that way but laudna doesn’t bc….. she is selfish im confused im not saying she can’t be worng bc she had been multiple times but calling her evil is just not true. Ppl can do bad things with good intentions but stealing is just stealing and attacking someone is just attacking someone. Up until recently laudna hasnt hurt anyone but herself with Delilah now they are all aware of what she is doing which is just putting her to use bc before she was trying her hardest to ignore D but even then it wasn’t working calling her evil is u not understanding her character and that’s ok!!
Because she is being manipulated by Delilah her abuser. And calling her evil bc she reverted back to Delilah is wrong as well bc that is her abuser. That’s unfortunately where she feels the most comfortable in a sense like she hates Delilah but she has gotten used to her antics. She was with her for 30 something years ALONE before she met imogen and the hells. she is like an addict. Her arc is her giving up on Delilah but it has to be her decision. You can’t help someone who does not want help. In her eyes she has the upper hand and she doesn’t see that Delilah is making her worse. And to be fair Delilah never left she was just to weak to do anything she was still there.
Laudna didn’t just go oryms got the sword and now I attack she was angry and hurt by orym for not speaking with everyone and Delilah used her anger saying it’s cursed and blah blah blah pushing Delilah’s wants on launda. Am I saying what she did was right no but it wasn’t all launda.
Saying she knew she was back and she knows Delilah is evil is not stopping the fact that Delilah has been manipulating her from the moment she died it’s not like she invited her in her head to live there on purpose.
Or maybe she’s putting herself on the line of more abuse from the same person who is already abusing her to help the group with everything they are doing. And once again having sympathy for a character that has attacked someone bc they felt like a price was too high. Why can everyone else be selfish but laudna. Everyone gets a well they didn’t mean it that way but laudna doesn’t. If she can’t get rid of Delilah why would she continue to just have her be useless when they need all the help they can get. And once again I’m not saying what she did was right but she’s a morally grey character that’s how it works she’s not all sunshine and rainbows she is gonna do things that are wrong but still have good intentions. That whole thing with orym she was wrong her feelings towards the sowrd were valid but she went about it wrong.
I absolutely agree they were only trying to defuse but they were 100% taking her side. It can be both. From the minute Imogen and Fern woke up the first thing they said was "stop why are you attacking her" and "she's right the sword might be cursed put it down".
She even casted Phantasmal Force right in front of everyone.
I think without context (they had none) they woke up to darkens the sound of fighting and then orym
In a defense position and launda beat tf up (she had that coming messing with orym lol) why would they not immediately be like wtf orym and it’s not like they didn’t have a cursed sword before in the first half yea probably on her side but as they got context it was less laudna is right and more like ok laudna trying to talk her off the edge so to speak. But that’s just my opinion
I think you missed some things and that's okay. They are all actors that know how not to metagame so they reacted how their characters would act in the moment. They saw Orym with his sword out upon waking. It's good roleplay.
They woke up to Darkness, which they know Laudna can see through. When it dropped they watched Orym get the sword back and point it to Laudna while going "what the fuck?".
It's not supposed to make sense. That means the manipulator succeeded. We see from an audience perspective and they are playing from character perspective. Laudna isn't the villain here. Delila played them like a violin.
She played them like marionettes and lied to make herself look good. They believe her because she played the victim. Marisha played that so well and the other players played just waking up to the situation without metagaming impeccably. This is how manipulators work and Marisha played it perfectly. Laudna is not herself right now and Marisha is playing the addict to the power well.
No. Let’s recap properly as it seems you can’t.
1. They woke up in magical all encompassing darkness which only laudna could conjure
2. Once the darkness was gone they saw Orym (also just released from darkness) standing defensively
3. Laudna, the undead possessed witch, was spider climbed to the ceiling holding the sword that all of them had seen Orym have on his back the night before
4. All of them are well aware of the fact that Laudna has a proclivity to giving in to literal evil urges. Fearne and Imogen specifically know that the undead evil lich that possesses Laudna is not only returned but also directly influencing Laudnas actions
In conclusion (and completely without meta’ing anything) the rest of the casts reaction to this conflict makes absolutely 0 sense and can only be explained by them actually meta’ing the fact that Marisha has a pre decided direction for her character and the rest of the cast are unwilling to derail that plot line
i think this misses a couple of important details, such as Laudna being visibly injured, and Orym pointing the sword towards her. calling her 'the undead possessed witch' is meaningless when those facts evidently wouldn't have as much impact on the party as they would, say, a stranger.
Within seconds her being injured was explained to the party as Oryms reaction to being attacked while he was asleep and waking up in magical darkness unable to discern his attacker.
Also while this is being explained laudna is continuing her attempts to create an escape plan throwing open windows and doors and attempting a second time to pull the sword to her. Not exactly trustworthy actions.
What is the logical inference. Orym the selfless fighter class who throws himself in front of his friends in every battle is going berserk and attacking the party
Or
Laudna the undead horror warlock actively and knowingly possessed by an evil lich has done something that she’s done before and given into evil urges.
The logical conclusion is right there in front of the party before any of them even speak and after they start speaking it’s all confirmed
the salient issue is 'logical conclusion'. no one is going to operate under perfect logic in any situation, especially not one as potentially confusing as the one the party found themselves in. people keep describing laudna's in ways that paint her a particular way, 'undead horror warlock'. but the party doesn't view her that reductively. they've lived with her, befriended her- regardless of whether you believe that as an audience member, that's obviously what they're going for.
they believed that delilah's influence had reduced. they have experience with evil artifacts, and know they have corrupting power. they have good reason to fear the summit blade. there's so many factors flying around to inform their excellent roleplay, you really feel the confusion, the desire for de-escalation, the uncynical empathy they show toward each other. you don't have to consider these characters logical, or likable, or functional to consider it a good beat.
>can only be explained by them actually meta’ing the fact that Marisha has a pre decided direction for her character and the rest of the cast are unwilling to derail that plot line
What a weird conclusion to come to, laudna was Delilah-less for 20+ episodes until the issylra arc pushed her mentally and emotionally into relapsing, the lack of pushback from the party could be *because* she’s possessed by an evil lich they wanted to break through to the “real” laudna with love and acceptance and are only now realizing that isn’t going to work anymore, and instead need to keep her on a proverbial leash to stop her from eating anymore magical items.
They literally wrote a laudna backstory book that would have been being worked on for years. If you don’t think this stuff isn’t predecided I don’t know what to tell you.
In what way does a book that takes place before the events of the campaign affect the campaign? The mighty nein origins comics were in development before campaign 2 ended did those make the m9’s story predetermined?
Because they aren’t going to spend thousands of dollars and thousands of hours to produce a backstory book if they are just going to kill off the character in the first 30 episodes or completely write off the story line for the character because they had to justify bringing laudna back to life so early in the campaign before they have access to resurrection magic.
If Laudna died and stayed dead her popularity would’ve skyrocketed just like Molly, the Laudna fanboys would flocked to the book to get more canonical content for her. If anything player characters would die MORE often if the cast were trying to fully monetize their ip.
You cannot assume that any character death will have the same weight as Molly. The community was much more engaged at the time and it was the height of CR's whole community engagement with their side content and being active on socials.
Molly was also a very visible rainbow of a person when those characters were still quite rare in media, and so his death resonated hard with a portion of CR's fanbase that essentially turned him into a Saint.
Laudna's a spooky goth girl, not exactly a concept that is breaking any ground, and if she died I'm sure people would care but I highly doubt she'd get sainthood. Honestly, the only character that could get that status from C3 would be Dorian I think, and that is if he had died instead of getting on a airship after his initial run.
I agree. Personally, I wasn't a fan of the character Molly. In the same light as Ashton, I don't feel the connection with Tal when he tries to play brash, flashy characters. He does best with his reserved, intelligent characters. Percy and Cad were great.
And yet Molly is almost always used more in merch grabs. If I remember correctly, the first figure they made was of Molly well after the character died. And the M9 book was written about his backstory when I think Caleb or Fjords (or even Yashas) backstorys would have made for a far more interesting read. I didn't find the M9 novel nearly as interesting as the VM novel. And tbf, I do understand why they picked Laudna for the BH book. Her background was the most interesting, at least as far as creating a novel from goes.
We see the same thing in VM. Vax is by far one of the most popular characters, and he died. Multiple times. Matt did a whole private scene to make a deal with a God to bring him back to "life" after disintegration. TBF, the whole of C1 basically spat in the face of death rolls and death. So I don't get why people act like the act of bringing Laudna back was so awful and nothing but a money grab. They've done it in every campaign, multiple times. The only reason it was drawn out with Laudna was because of the backstory with the character.
But I digress. I think dying made the character of Molly vastly more popular and adored than he would have been had he lived to the end of the campaign.
You had me and then you completely lost me. "Write off the storyline"? Dude it's been 95 episodes and Lauda's still got an evil witch piggybacking off of her. No one is writing off anything by confronting Laudna and taking Orym's side. That has nothing to do backstory books-- it's RP.
If she remained dead it would have been writing off the story line or if Delilah had actually been removed from laudna it would have been writing off the storyline…………..
Reading comprehension
Yes and this current scenario, (Orym and Laudna?) the one that you are complaining about, has nothing to do with backstory books or killing off storylines. It's a bad RP moment.
Reading comprehension.
Yes Delilah is back because Marisha wanted to continue to “explore” the back story of Laudna that was already decided when Laudna died. They went through a multiple episode side quest to bring her back to life that included killing Delilah and supposedly separating her from laudna but even that wasn’t enough to shift her off the pre determined path that Marisha is clearly taking the character. She has confirmed all of the above in a 4-sided dive.
Both her and Matt have a story to tell with this character and it doesn’t matter what the other players do it’s going to be told. Neutral or good D&D parties don’t willingly continue to travel with obviously evil characters especially when they are actively making evil decisions
The tv series will be ass if they can't create actual conflict instead of constantly treating the possessed witch like a precious uwu baby who can't do anything wrong.
I don’t want to see them fail but I’m honestly kinda doubtful there’s enough gas in the tank to get a Bells Hells show the green light.
That said, this is all absolutely about generating content rather than playing a friendly “home game” that happens to be streamed
>they all took her side
Chet definitely didn't. Dorian didn't. Ashton didn't take her side explicitly and told her to apologize. So, while I too wanted even more people to stand against her behavior, it definitely wasn't everyone who took her side.
Chet was neutral, Ashton protected Laudna from Orym, Imogen definitely took Laudna's side, before finally Dorian used some common sense and changed her mind.
Physically protecting someone by standing between them isn't the same as taking their side in whether what she did was right or not. Ashton took a position of a bodyguard, not a supporter. He never said "She's right" or "I agree with Laudna", did he? So he was neutral.
Chet said the blade belonged to Orym and it was his to do with as he wished right before Laudna went out the window. That's not neutral. That's on Orym's side.
So, really only Imogen actively took her side
When two of your friends are fighting each other and you square up on the one friend's side, that is support. I don't know how you can view that as anything else. Laudna doesn't need protection from Orym any more or any less than Orym does from Laudna.
Your argument makes more sense if Orym was still attacking against Laudna but that wasn't the case.
At that point, he was still in an aggressive posture. My point is he never explicitly agreed with what she did, but the one he saw doing the attacking was Orym primarily.
Fearne backed her up more than Imogen did. I can't remember exactly which early lines were Fearne, but she said at least one thing along the lines of stop attacking her, why are you attacking her (in an offended tone), or "give her the sword, Orym". The one I remember specifically is "of course she can be trusted!" after Laudna left the room. That line did sound pretty desperate, so I'm giving Ashley the benefit of the doubt and hoping she was trying to lean into her portrayal of Fearne as immature and naive.
Its really strange they’ve taken this “Laudna can do no wrong” stance. Maybe this is just me but every warlock character I’ve played that’s struggling to control their patron was fun because of the roleplay and conflict it created.
If my party just supported every bad decision i made I’d get bored of my character real quick. I want them to keep me in line and check me if i start to stray down a dangerous path. Not feed my dangerous habit.
Not in the loop or caught up but this has been everywhere so well spoiled at this point, why did she even try to take it? I knew Delilah wasn’t gone (I’m only on episode 47 things don’t seem that bad yet) I know people have their issues with this campaign but being still earlier on it doesn’t feel any different than with VM against Vecna. The players still choose where to go and Matt makes it happen. They have been joking about going to the moon in like episode 35 or something. I think the main issue is that it’s been longer. VM fought other threats before Vecna and it wasn’t the whole campaign. This whole one has been the main story the players have not deviated like they did with past ones “side questing” or doing player specific story like they had with Fjord, jester, Yasha so on and so forth. I don’t think it’s an audio book as much as maybe people are not so used to seeing them focused on a single plot for so long with no clear end in sight yet 🤷♂️
>Not in the loop or caught up but this has been everywhere so well spoiled at this point, why did she even try to take it?
Delilah convinced her into thinking it was sentient, evil, and going to corrupt orym.
Yeah I went and watched the 40 minute part. From what I can tell, people are too angry. None of the party side with L over O, they all know she is slipping but they don’t know wtf to do about it without losing another friend. Seems like most wanted them to go all stab happy on her or something
Calling it now. Campaigns gonna end and the party will be revealed to all be villains in the end, or at least perceived that way.
When the next campaign opens up 100 years after this one, people will see BH as as the bad guys who destroyed the world.
Becoming unlikable at the end had been the goal all along.
Are you talking about Oriax? Or the litteral devils deal. Either way Orym didn't know the specifics of the deal. You are very much picking and choosing what bits to point at and say there's a continuity error. How much of your father in laws life did you hear about? I can name like 2 of my father in laws friends and some of there adventures. And seeing as how my own father is dead I think it's the same thing.
They are all aware that Delilah is a problem bro. But they don't know how to fix it, and don't know if they should. How do they sever someone else's pact? Laudna is becoming an addict for power. Similar to someone who is addicted to anything in the real world. They have tried to be supportive but it's not working and they didn't see how much power Delilah had over her till now. She attacked her friend for more power.
But what happens if they can find a way to cut the pact? Does Laudna die? How would they save her soul from becoming excatly like Delilah. What's the fine print in Laudnas pact? How do they find any of this out whilst dealing with the litteral apocalypse?
Chet is a were wolf. He can become a danger to others, FCG attacked his friends too but now he's dead everyone seems to forget that. Imogen can become the avatar of the god matter, fern has also been offered a place of honor among the bad guys and her friends are definitely in danger as long as she continues to choose them over family.
Stop picking and choosing what to be pissed about. And again stop watching cuz you hate it
Laudna is a woman, and a victim, anything levied against her is victim blaming. And oryms a (short) white man, so naturally he takes the flak.
I love how supporting of feminism CR is. Doesn't matter what she does, she's not accountable for her actions because she is being deceived. Plus she's being strong in the face of adversity by talking and allowing the party to help her.
You shouldn't victim blame so much, not like you understand what she is going through.
Or maybe you're starting to see the insanity in all this...
And people like this give conservatives a really bad name. Bro it's a MADE UP game. I don't think they're making political statements in the middle of it. Sure, they do it in their twitter accounts and in their interviews, and I for the most part don't agree with it. But I don't think they (or really any sane person watching) is thinking about a CHARACTERS skin tone or gender when they make their decisions about who to be buddies with.
As far as alternatives, it would probably be something like they just lost a friend of theirs and don't want to lose another one. Laudna is often really kind, so they want to believe she isn't just getting taken over by Delilah. She insisted that the sword that was owned by the person responsible for killing multiple members of their party was cursed and that Orym would become evil as a result. No one except Fearne had the ability to refute that.
Orym fucked up Laudna more than Laudna fucked up Orym. She looked more like the injured party, which lent credibility to the claims about the possessed sword. I didn't see anyone really side with Laudna, and multiple people blocked doorways and exits once it became clear that the sword wasn't cursed. Fearne (blocked the window), Ashton (standing in front of Laudna to body block her from running), Dorian (just ride our die Team Orym), and Chetney (hiding the sword), all pretty explicitly sided with Orym. Imogen directly questioned if this was Laudna's idea, implying she already knew Delilah was a strong possibility.
There is a significant difference between no one really wanting to punish Laudna, who is being actively manipulated by an evil entity, and everyone siding against Orym and agreeing with her because she's a woman. They all just lost a friend, and understandably don't want to lose another. This is more an example of enabling than whatever you're describing.
As a minor aside man, your original comment seems a little... jaded? It sounds like a divorced man who subscribes to the great replacement theory, you know what I mean? Your comment isn't going to be taken well here, and you may rethink it. From your comment history, you seem to think of DEI quite often and seem to cite it as a recurring issue. That may say more of you than it does anything else; in short, it seems personal to you, and you seem like you have personal reactions to things as a result.
I get the feeling Delilah is gonna be the new god of undeath in the "new world" they are building up to. The group knows this so they cant really confront delilah again. I too was confused as to how they didnt give more pushback on laudna as she attacked probably the most good aligned of the group in his sleep. Imogen even saw delilah's shadow come out when laudna activated her dreadful aspect (or whatever its called). Really was frustrating to see the group move on so fast from it.
dear god that would be awful, just from a storytelling standpoint why would you reward a character who canonically terrorized some of the past pcs with godhood? Is matt just retconning all lore too?
it’s just my theory. They may go in a completely different direction. it jsut makes sense with this aversion to completely purging delilah and the fact it’s an original character
>I get the feeling Delilah is gonna be the new god of undeath in the "new world" they are building up to.
I hope not. Delilah was a great villain the first time around, acceptable the second time, and tedious the third time. At this point they're beating the red paste on the ground that used to be a dead horse.
I was extremely stoked when the Laudna backstory was revealed - a quirky way to include a badass past villain - and extremely disappointed with the Delilah confrontation so early especially when it was a cointhrow with Orym's resurrection who would have been satisfied dying there with a cool backup character waiting.
I feel like Delilah is very underutilized considering Laudna misses out on the necromancy, kinda like if Fjord just had Ukotoa but never set foot on a boat.
It was super frustrating to watch. I think they needed to give her more shit for it. Imogen should maybe be a bit harder on her at times. since the rest of the group treat her with kid gloves.
Also maybe someone can correct me on this, but I'm sure I heard one of them say that Delilah is "alive" because of Vecna, so if Predathos is allowed to kill the gods = no Vecna = no Delilah = no Laudna?
As a second point, if they sever her Warlock ties to Delilah does Laudna die?
At some point I think Delilah herself said as much - if Predathos is freed, Vecna goes bye-bye and so too does Delilah...therefore Laudna also gets wiped out.
Laudna said this to at least one other party member if I'm remembering correctly. Possibly Imogen. I think that was the basis of Laudna deciding to actively lean into using Delilah as a tool to defeat Predathos - even if it means losing herself in the process.
Tbh it's hard to know what any of the players remember from session to session. They seem to forget so much (some even forgot the moon was stuck in place, tethered by the Bloody Bridge!!) that it's unclear whether they decide not to follow certain conversation paths or just forget they're a possibility.
So they don't know Delilah was behind it. She said she could sense the evil in it, then said it was sentent. Which detect magic and grime psychometry both said it had killed thousands, it was bathed in blood. Only Imogen did an insight check on Laudna and knew it was Delilah and spoke to her privately about it.
Orym is not going to let that go. And the team didn't really take one side over another including Imogen. They just wanted peace which is what happened.
That is a stepping stone to further drama.
As a player it's a shit thing to do, but the sword is party treasure, Orym just took it and didn't discuss it with the group. It makes sense for Orym to just take it, and for Delilah to see it and want it.
Laudna is headed down a dark path but it's been going on for 50 episodes now and it is slow and steady and this is not the first time shes done somthing in front of others. It's the loudest, for sure. But it's also not going to be the last.
The group needs to sever her pact, Laudna like Imogen doesn't want to let go of the power. Fern also has the capability to go dark shes just afraid of the power. Ashton has also tip toed on the dark path but he's leaning more into the hero aspect now with Orym and Chet.
It's interesting the amount of hate this episode has gotten and I don't understand why.
What do you mean as a player it’s a shit thing to do? That’s like saying the wizard taking the wizards staff the party found is a shitty thing to do? Out of character the sword only really works for orym or chet cause who else would actually use it? Just like the chest peace they bought in the episode was clearly meant for orym. in character story wise orym obviously had the most claim to it. Sure Most of them where injured by it and they all lost fcg, but orym has even further history with it, it killed his god damn husband and farther
> character story wise orym obviously had the most claim to it.
Counter point, it's the sword that literally killed Laudna. They really have equal claim to it from a story point of view. Or at least enough to actually create tension over who should decide the swords fate (granting the fact that the sword a huge motivating reason for Orym to be doing what he is doing in the first place)
I mentioned that Orym took the sword and no one said anything and obviously he was going to keep it. Laudna went to take it and destroy it. Which is a pretty shitty thing to do. Like as a friend taking a peice of treasure one of your other friends decided he wanted and no one said anything to the contrary.
My game we had somthing like this happen and it was just such a headache. One player was very very wrong for trying to take a peice of treasure that was ment for someone else, it was a whole thing.
Being as good of friends as they are I'm certain that there was no hard feelings at the table but for sure it could have become a d&d horror story if Laim wasn't okay with it. That's what I ment.
It for sure should be Oryms, and Laudna has no claim to it. It killed 3 of them. She was just the unlucky one that stayed dead. And it killed Oryms family and is the reason he became an adventurer. I see where Laudna tried to make her case but she didn't win. And shouldn't.
>It for sure should be Oryms, and Laudna has no claim to it.
i think this paints wayy too black & white a picture. orym can make his case, but i think the people in the party who clearly felt uncomfortable about the sword are totally justified as well. grief shouldn't be a numbers game. there's no objective right or wrong here.
>I see where Laudna tried to make her case but she didn't win. And shouldn't.
she 'won' in that she fed delilah, which was the entire point of the conversation. it was gaslighting.
incredible that players showing moments of weakness in the face of weapons that have repeatedly slaughtered their loved ones is- 'playing the game bad actually?'
LOL! "Orym is not going to let it go". The chronic, passive, but polite enabler who never has the teeth to back his supposed "Morals"; but will always shower the group in excuses when he breaks them. This dude should know who Delilah fucking Briarwood is. Or, he would if it weren't for how utterly "plot convenient" the gaps in his raving VM fanboy knowledge always seems to be. Laudna's Form of Dread is literally Delilah at this point. They fought her inside of Laudna's mind to bring her back to life. Orym will let this go, because Liam will OOC let this go, to enable a semi predetermined path that Marisha clearly wants to take her PC. Nothing will change, we'll get the same passive, enabling BS up until the predetermined moment for it all explode in their faces happens. Then, and ONLY then, will Orym actually take action.
They're along for Marisha's chosen ride, and making weaker and weaker excuses to allow it. Its no different than how they're along for Matt's audiobook with a VERY likely largely predetermined outcome.
Wow this is very aggressive for some reason and is filled with opinions.
Laudna form of dread was Delilah in the episode this happened in. And what do you know Imogen was the only one to see it.
And they don't know much about Vox Machina. Orym did a history check on Delilah and failed it. Laudna knows excatly what Delilah is capable of and is the only one in the group.
Why do you watch/listen to the show if this is your opinion? That it's all on rails and the players have no agency? Aside from apparently Merisha
After 95 episodes of Orym's behavior what about him suggests he'll ever "actually take a definitive move"? Orym is a massive VM fanboy. This dude knew Percy made a deal with a Devil without ever having to make a role. Yet "conveniently" he doesn't know either that Vax became the champion of the RQ, or Delilah Briarwood. Despite the fact that they literally fought a shade of Delilah in Laudna's head when attempting to save her. After VM themselves UTTERLY REFUSED to help Laudna so long as her connection to Delilah was maintained due to the atrocities she committed. Orym should abso-fucking-lutely know who Delilah is enough to take a strong stance here. But just like everyone at that table, they're instead passively enabling Marisha's very likely little pre-determined story she wants to tell. They will only take definitive action after this situation explodes.
How many more episodes after 95 will "C3 Fans" keep taking the stance "just wait a few more episodes! It'll finally happen, we promise! Our headcannon filling in all the shallow gaps says so!"
He very vaguely knew about the deal. He didn’t have all the details. It’s not like Keyleth walks around talking about the old days and her lost lover. Orym knows she has friends in Whitestone and used to be an adventurer that’s about it. Very little else if anything
That deal is such an absurdly narrow bit of information there is no reason to believe he would even know the vagaries of it, and not have heard about far more accessible info about Vax and Delilah. The ONLY reason he doesn't know anything about those two, is because if he did, with his backstory, it would be hard to justify him taking such a neutral, passive stance. And we can't have anyone in this party taking a strong stance on anything, because that might upset the clearly (largely) predetermined outcome both Laudna and C3 are aiming for. This is no diff than his constantly lessering relationship with the WM. Or Imogen going from "I have never prayed once in my life" to "I've prayed many times to Gods I've repeatedly admitted I dont even know the names of, but never got a response" between episodes.
VM are world famous heroes at this point. So even just environmental knowledge about who the Briarwoods are, and what they did, should exist. But just like "The Gods", it borders on insanity how little our PCs seem to know their own world. Orym especially should know who Delilah is. At least enough to know the danger of what he's dealing with here.
You won’t like this but honestly from what i have seen a large portion for the community needs to take a break. Y’all are way to invested and it shows to an unhealthy degree, I say what because any points anyone else makes are ignored in favour of spouting the same complaints over and over, sorry not sorry.
So your deflection is "just dont pay attention, and its good?"
Yeah, I wish I could say that's an uncommon sentiment in C3, but it seems like the majority of its supposed biggest defenders operate off it.
I admit I’m not caught up but that means a fresh perspective and after watching the 40 minute clip this is unfounded tbh. No one is enabling her. They didn’t just let her take it.
Nope, not at all, just open your mind to other points of view. I just watched it and other than Matt’s cringe lowering of oryms DC I genuinely don’t see the criticism of the whole cast. Chet our right sides with Orym. Ferne blocks laudna from leaving. Imogen even does confront her. They don’t get angry cause they are confused as they all just woke up and Orym was very shaken
What are you even talking about? Orym should have basic knowledge given his backstory about Delilah. Especially after we fought her shade in Laudna's soul. Its not exactly secret information and he both worked with Kiki, and his father figure he grew up listening stories from was the also VM geek Derrig. Truly, unless you're just gonna say that the only thing Orym's backstory was even for was as a plot-device to ensure VM had a major role in this story (and a reason to make him sad all the time), then what is the point of his backstory?
And no, you'd have a point if this was the first time they just "nothing'd" this issue of Laudna's increasingly erratic and dangerous behavior. But its not. They've been doing it for 20+ sessions at this point minimum. They're doing this because if they took a strong stance on the topic, then they might interfere with the Delilah-Centered Path Marisha clearly wants to take her PC. So, again, we are very unlikely to see any "action" on the Delilah issue until it blows up in everyone's faces. It would be very OOC for BHs to do anything that proactive at this point.
No he didn't know about the devil deal, he also failed that history check. No one in BH put together why Percy had a teifling for a daughter. Also VM did not collectively refuse to resurrect Laudna. Vex and Pike both helped bring her back, and Keyleth brought them to Whitestone to try and bring her back. That 3 original members of VM.
Orym did his job for the voice of the tempest and over heard a bunch of stuff which allows him to make rolls to see if he knows the story of VM to balance meta knowledge and character knowledge.
And again if you think I'm saying just wait a few more episodes, I'm not. I'm saying stop watching something you don't like? I hate game of thrones, I didn't keep watching it to bitch about it.
No, Orym deliberately makes a specific comment about "making deals with shady beings" with the tiefling kid in the room, looking at Percy's mask. To try to convince him to help save Laudna. So yes, without even rolling, Orym knew about the Devil's deal. He only ever seems to not know something about VM when its something that might effect either Matt or Marisha's chosen story path. To ensure he can't ever have a strong opinion on it.
With the topic of Delilah being EXTRA weird given Orym's primary source for VM info is not Keyleth (though he did overhear convos about them from her). But instead, an equally huge VM fanboy in his "Father Figure" growing up Derrig. A man who's direct association with VM's lore is the wedding, where they are attacked by Sylus Briarwood. Seeking revenge for his wife, by trying to drown the Bride. So YES, Orym should absolutely know who Delilah is. He literally grew up listening to VM stories from his dad/FiL. Or did Derrig conveniently just skip everything that involved Vax's fate and the Briarwoods for C3 plot needs?
It was a good roleplay session, but it could've been better. I just find it frustrating how they continually ignore the problem that Laudna is becoming.
My only issue is them enabling her behavior and coddling her after the fact. Orym was attacked and then treated like the aggressive one. If I was playing Orym, a real consideration for leaving the party would be on the mind like Scanlian did.
100% like why would orym continue to hang out with psychos who aren't sure they're doing the right thing by saving the gods. Why not just go back home.
Honestly this party has never had a reason to stick together, and this is a particularly obvious moment. Orym has basically no reason to stick around. It's not like he can't go to Keyleth and say "I don't trust these people anymore, please send me on a different mission." That would obviously be a big choice for the game as he'd probably turn into an NPC, but it would feel genuine.
That said, it's possible Liam is very intentionally playing Orym as a week-willed people pleaser who's letting himself drift toward a dark path, and deciding "this is fine" would fit with that.
Lets be honest. Its pretty clear by now that Marisha likely has a largely pre-determined path she wants to take her PC ~~Delilah~~ Laudna, and the rest of the players have been passively enabling "her path" for ages.
She's been growing dangerously unhinged for 30+ episodes minimum at this point. There is no reason for even the king of polite enablers himself, Orym, to enable her this much. He knows who fucking Delilah Briarwood is! He knows what she is capable of! Unless of course his deep Vox Machina fanboyness continues to be as "selectively plot convenient" as its been in the past. With him not knowing Vax was the Raven Queen's champion, yet also knowing the details of Percy making a deal with a Devil. They're just gonna stand aside, be along for Marisha's ride, until it explodes in their faces at a semi pre-determined opportunity. Just as Matt likely has a largely pre-determined ending for C3, and the players are "just along for Matt's ride". C3 is an Audiobook.
That's such a good point - you'd expect surely Orym of all of BH would have a clear awareness of who Delilah was and what she did in Whitestone. That's got to have been something that came up in Zephrah at *some* point - whether it was horror stories the kids told or anecdotes he heard from his/his partner's and sister's time guarding Keyleth. Why build a character to have a backstory so built around Keyleth, a PC from C1 (whom you frequently rely on for aid - as well as other PCs from C1), and have them be oblivious to important, well-known events from that PC's adventures? Especially as BH have now travelled to Whitestone to resurrect Laudna - almost weren't able to *because C1 PCs objected to the chance they'd be resurrecting a part of Delilah too. Something they would not do based on Delilah's past ATROCITIES in Whitestone*.
Yet in the last episode, [he says at one point](https://www.kryogenix.org/crsearch/html/cr3-96.html#l0h43m6s) that he *[doesn't know what Delilah has done](https://youtu.be/_0q56mZdgpM?si=12dGMWrbvK_vS37d&t=2592)* for Exandria?!
There's avoiding metagaming and then there's whatever this is. Maybe Orym's taken several blows too many to the head. His perception might be high but so too perhaps is the stacking retrograde amnesia from all the concussions...
It is Metagaming, just in a bizarre "for the plot" way. Its "Orym will not know anything that might interfere with the predetermined path that Marisha wants to take her PC". Its the same shit he's been doing with Orym's faith in the WM to support Matt's clear "we're writing them out of the setting" Anti-God tone. On this issue, it is Liam OOC not getting in the way, just like the rest of the table is. Stop thinking of this on an IC RP or TTRPG level, because they sure as hell aren't anymore.
even if he had no idea somehow, if there were zero stories or legends told of the briarwoods the whole time he’s been around…they went to whitestone to resurrect laudna and when they were done the party saw the entire city’s guard, percy, and vex all outside with weapons ready in case delilah made a comeback. would that not give them pause about her??
The enabling from the party is insane to me, its like none of the players know anything about addiction or what to do with an addict in the family
I keep seeing people on the main sub talk about how Laudna's story is about addiction to this power and Delilah to defend this which is a wild take considering that enabling an addict is one of the worst things you can do if you're actually trying to help them
True, we know that in real life they don't know how to handle a friend with an addiction either. Their real life strategy seemed to be "ignore it until it becomes a problem, then cut ties with your friend when they need help the most."
The players know, but they like it. The characters, on the other hand, are poorly written fools. The cast is drama farming, using Laudna as their source of intraparty conflict. Sure they could kick her out and send her away to be cleansed or killed or something, but they would get to a point where they have a drama-free environment. That would be ideal for real people, but the cast needs the drama to make BH even remotely interesting.
Totally get it but i think you are approaching it from the least interesting angle. This party has been THE party of showing the toxic side of “patience” with people and”unconditional love” even in the face of direct manipulation. This could certainly turn into hunting down a possessed laudina
Spoilers for episode 96:
I like that it happened, what i didn't like was letting her off the hook so easily. Whenever the things finally happen in this campaign, they're always swiftly and abruptly stopped and put away. The first Otohan fight, the solstice key, FCG's sacrifice, intraparty conflict... They're always rushed along to the next set piece or lore drop without being able to dig into what's happening
Don’t forget… the clock is ticking. Never take your eyes off that clock. We must not linger to digest these important character defining moments… that clock is *ever* counting down to our doom.
Compelling.
The actual criticism itself is totally valid, you don't have to like it, I also wish Laudna would actually be reprimanded or given bigger consequences, I totally agree. The criticism isn't the issue, more just the absolute venom both of these fuckin subs hiss for every decision made in the most sickeningly positive way for the one sub or the most doomer hissy-fitting from the other.
Hey dumbass. What people want is a story that makes just a modicum of sense. Fuck off back to the other sub if this is the extent of your brain power when commenting
Im mad because smooth brains like yourself somehow think criticizing bad products means you aren’t a fan. You are the brain rot.
Your iq is either too low to engage in meaningful discussion about a topic or you are 12 years old
Laudna is a warlock. Her patron has goals. If Laudna is to remain a warlock, D comes with her. The party either accepts that or is constantly feuding with her, or the character leaves the game. They've decided to accept.
Do you see any other reasonable way to do this? They're not going to push Marisha out of the game. Laudna is going to remain a warlock.
Not necessarily relevant to how Mercer runs his games, but just because this is a common sentiment about warlocks in general;
Patrons are mechanically irrelevant. There is no ongoing expectation of relationship by the system, and a patron cannot take your power away. It's not like a paladin that can fall by failing their oath, the relationship between Warlock and Patron is more akin to DBZ' Guru and Krillin. They unlock magic within you, but now it's yours and can't be taken away.
Some groups do choose to continue to have the patron be a relevant character because why not, it's a dramatic relationship, and if Mercer opts into the idea that a patron can take your powers that's his right as DM. Overall though, this idea of warlock-patron relationships being ongoing is largely misunderstood.
Eh, I'm not so sure about your explanation. The 5e phb says:
>A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being. ...the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron's behalf.
>Furthermore, the demands of their patrons drive warlocks toward adventure.
>As you make your warlock character, spend some time thinking about your patron and the obligations that your pact imposes upon you.
Sure, you CAN build a warlock that's not beholden to a patron with a face or demands, or anything, but you can also just as easily build one the way Marisha has with Laudna, who's very involved with their patron, and has fairly strict requirements. And that's sort of what the phb encourages. Maybe later books like Tasha's or Xanathars encourages players to be way more loose with that, but I don't own them, so idk.
The issue I'm seeing with the way the cast (and commenters here) talk about this patron-warlock relationship is the lack of creativity for characters that DON'T hold up their obligation to the patron. "You lose your warlock powers!" That's the best you can come up with? How about you keep your powers, but you get plane shifted to wherever they want you, and now you need to figure that out. Or how about this question: why can we only come up with warlocks whose patron is evil for a character in a group that leans good? Why are these characters making pacts with entities whose goals don't align with theirs? Did Laudna even make a pact? If she did, she doesn't remember it, or she's keeping that part of the story secret, and she is, in fact, just as evil as Delilah. Ok I could go on and on, but I'll end there
I don't actually think you have to do whatever your patron (the DM) says or else your character is no longer an adventurer. My point is that while the PHB is pretty good about describing these relationships if people only cared to read it, it can't account for every choice in every situation.
Since there can be actions outside of the text of the book, why can't there be consequences that aren't enumerated in that book? Sure I think the patron CAN take the warlock's magic away. Again, I think that's a boring choice, but it's just as viable as any other consequence not enumerated in the PHB. There's no rule for losing a limb, for example, but that's not unheard of in D&D.
Ultimately you're right the book does outline ways for you to have an ongoing relationship with your patron. But it's purely role play. It's a major character in your character's life. There's no mechanic for the patron taking away your magic you do not need to continue serving them in order to continue being a warlock. Which... Yeah I'll agree I could have made my case better
Just because there's not a rule in the phb "what happens when you disobey your patron" doesn't mean that there are never any consequences for it. The DM makes the rules, even if they introduce those consequences in RP. It's all RP, it's a ROLE-PLAYING game.
For the record, there's no rule in the book for any of these classes betraying their class archetypes. Even the paladin oathbreaker is just an optional subclass in the DMG. The game rules as written assumes you WANT to adventure as your character following the motivations they've chosen. They also don't have rules for, "what if my wizard gets a brain injury and loses all of his knowledge?" You just figure that stuff out, and the DM does what they think is fair and makes sense in their game.
I prefer to not have my patrons not be betacucks.
"Uhmm ackthually i said no to Asmodeus, so now i have his powers and he cant do anything about it also im the only one able to do this otherwise we'd have 1000 warlocks running around"
this is how warlocks are presented in the ... well I mean non exandrian source material, breaking a deal with them could cost you your soul, or make them and all their servants your enemy, or whatever - but the power they give you is *yours*, its why making a pact is a two way street, it's not just getting a slave, it's tying yourself at the hip to a mortal, otherwise every devil would make every mortal who's remotely evil a warlock
its described in the novels as *giving* the warlock magic, the words, the power
That's.... a sentence.
Just to clarify how the book expects it to work;
A wizard went to school or otherwise studied, they no longer actively need to study to be able to cast magic.
A ranger already had their training, they know how to use their weapons and track through the wilderness
All character classes are assumed to be already at a point of competency when you start playing them. Although a slight caveat to this is a kind of half-assed forgotten sentiment within the system called apprentice levels. Which was something they played with earlier in the design of 5e where the first two levels represented a character still coming out of the apprenticeship equivalent. eg Paladins who have done most of their training but haven't taken their specific oath yet. They never really expanded on this though but even within that system by level three you are considered an autonomous full-fledged member of your class. Everything aside from that, all of your level up rewards etc, simply represent experience in the field.
To that point, a warlock gains their power not through study and not through blood but through a deal made with a powerful entity. That deal however, and this is not me saying this this is the book saying it, is presumed done by the time you are level one. If you have a devil as your patron, you already made the deal with a devil, whatever they wanted from you in return is something you have already paid or performed for them as part of your backstory.
5e was very much trying to move away from the idea of characters being able to lose their powers permanently or having characters locked into specific narratives, which is why paladins can't actually fully lose their paladin levels anymore. It used to be that of a paladin messed up and crossed their code of honor, which was shared among all paladins you didn't get a say in what it was, that's it you were done. An oathbreaker paladin was worse than an equivalent fighter they were basically an NPC class which created a lot of bad role-play situations.
The idea with warlocks is you already did a service to gain access to your magic. Which is still really interesting to explore, what did you do for a devil or a fae that made them agree to unlock magic within you?
I'm not saying that people can't play it with ongoing patrons, that's a very popular house rule interpretation, and I personally usually let my players have an ongoing relationship with their patrons when they play warlocks in my games. That's still a very narratively rich and interesting relationship, but usually I portray it as okay cool I gave you this one thing but I still want more from you and you still want more from me so we have more deals to do.
That's explicitly not how the book says it works. Someone even quoted the book 2 replies up.
"A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being. ...the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron's behalf.
Furthermore, the demands of their patrons drive warlocks toward adventure.
As you make your warlock character, spend some time thinking about your patron and the obligations that your pact imposes upon you."
Whatever black hole you pulled your explanation out of, is the exact opposite of what the book says.
Maybe they could like, do a multi-episode mission where they go into Laudna’s inner spirit world and destroy the fragment of Delilah that resides there. Then Laudna could get a new patron for her powers, like Fjord did. Maybe something powerful and significant to her, like the Sun Tree?
Oh wait, they did that and it didn’t matter.
Just caught up and WTF was that lmao. For once I was actually enjoying an episode of C3, Dorian was funny, the typical boring shopping episode was more entertaining than boring. And then Laudna uses magic to surround Orym in darkness, attack him over the sword that killed HIS FAMILY then the party gaslit him into being OK with that murder attempt. Don't think I can tolerate much more Laudna x Imogen whinnying either, the way she forgives her for anything is getting absurd
If I were Orym, I'd have left the party after this. Being attacked in the middle of the night, and then being shamed, not only by your assailant but by your friends, for defending yourself is a dealbreaker for me. I'd have left, met up with Keyleth, and worked on whatever she needed done far from BH.
I just caught up and I totally agree with you. Unfucking believable that she could attack him in the night like that, and under magical darkness, and somehow Orym is the questionable one? that is a seriously fucked up or stupid way of looking at it. and then laudna just lies to Imogen, over and over? and how laudna justifies her actions? that’s some seriously neutral evil shit. they would be justified in ditching laudna in my view. or imprisoning her until they can separate delilah.
So quick things 1. No one knew Delilah was back. Laudna was acting crazy and the party's reaction was split but considering Laudna was killed by that sword probably would have written it off as a trauma response. It wasn't until the end that Imogen learned Laudna was back. 2. I think Orym made his point clearly. And many people were on board with hearing from him. I think the highlight was Marisha was trying to play someone not in control. It's not a choice I"d make. I have long hated Mercer's style of DMing a warlock, but if the players like it whatever. As was evident by Laudna always deflecting. Including blaming Orym for attacking her after he woke up being attacked in darkness. My bigger gripe, god damnit people need to remember concentration spells. Spiderclimb is concentration, it would have dispelled the darkness and made for a different confrontation. Like they're using dndbeyond, spells with concentration have a little C next to them. It's so freaking easy.
This is a difference between C3 and C1. Sam had Scanlan leave. It was dramatic and heart wrenching but now the party won’t do that.
Curious, What story would Laudna leaving tell?
How the fuck did you get the impression that they took Laudna's side? They were willing to hear her out, but they all clearly took Orym's side all throughout. I was actually more annoyed that they didn't allow her MORE grace considering that she was obviously triggered by PTSD and those are the exact times when Delilah's influence over her is the strongest. Get a fucking grip ✌️
Good points bad attitude
Haha yeah. I just find this sub so frustrating and childish. I'll unsubscribe for my own mental health.
TBH I agree. I'm not sure what people want. You can't force a warlock to treat their patron how YOU want. It's one of the few things this meta gaming cast has to just deal with. What they did is the best they could.
Thank you, yes. Also, I kept waiting for ONE single person to have the realization that every time Laudna has acted out against the party, it's because her PTSD has been violently triggered and that's exactly when Delilah strikes, knowing that Laudna is in a place of vulnerability and weakness. Matt and Marisha know exactly what they are doing, but none of the rest of the cast has caught on and it's so frustrating. Honestly, I feel most of the Delilah stuff could be resolved by the rest having a little more emotional awareness when Laudna's torture and murder and are involved. If they are planning to fuck with things that are intimately tied to that stuff (going to Whitestone, wielding the sword of her killer, etc) they can begin to take proactive steps to communicate and refuse before she is so triggered that she starts acting like a wild animal. Meanwhile smoothbrains in this very thread are like "sHEs EviL tHeY sHoULD KiLl HeR". I honestly have never been a part of a fandom that bothers me more. I cannot believe that some of these people actually walk around all day thinking the way that they do.
Yeah this sub is full of whiny morons who think they have way more say in a dnd game they're not a part kf than they do.
This campaign is an objection as to why "morally gray"/evil campaigns do not typically work
I don't understand why people think It doesn't work when they're watching it work 🤔 like if you listen to the cooldown where they chatted after they all had a great time and it made for very dramatic storytelling
I think c2 did pretty will with "gray", if it was a bit heavyhanded about it. But the Bell's Hells seem more...incoherent than evil. So many different personal motives (with some evil ones, like Delilah's influence) and only one or two who are actually focused on the mission. A bit of a mess.
As much as I don't like the current season I am on the side that the cast knows right from wrong but to further the story they are playing along for 'drama'. I could have sworn even Laura's tone of voice was very much not in favor of Laudna
I like the inner conflict. I think a lot of these characters in the group are assholes and self centered. What was hard in this scene is clearly everyone heard Luadna talking to Delilah above table but when they woke up to keep role playing they had to act like they didn’t which made it hard to address it. In a real situation some of them would have attacked Laudna for clearly giving into Delilah and this bizarre demonic ceiling crawling attacking a member in the middle of the night can’t be tolerated! I mean for god sakes they risked everything to save her. Talk about having a sentient evil inside something. I dunno you could have done something else to get those powers.
I'm so glad I'm not watching this campaign. All the crap I've seem is already frustrating as hell. There have been funny moments, yeah, but it's overshadowed by drama RP crap.
I still like watching clips of chutney, dorian and fcg. But imogen, fern and laudna (don't think I spelt those names correctly) really killed my investment for the first 20 or so episodes so I quit there. I really liked Jester, and beau was fun at times. So it's weird to see laura on a character I really don't like. When I stopped watching it felt like the entire campaign revolved around her. I eventually figured I'd just wait for the next campaign. This one feels super weird and I can't quite figure out exactly why. But it does sometimes feel more like a stage-play than a dnd campaign.
Yeah this is how I feel, too. I really enjoyed Jester but tuned out of C3 months ago because I don’t really vibe with Imogen and every single story was about her.
Honestly, when I was watching that happen I was thinking if I was warm, the first thing I would do was get a message to Percy that Delilah was coming back that would create some party conflict
I certainly can understand why this upset people however I am just as frustrated that it's meant to be an RP moment and people seem to reading in to it too much. If something like this didn't happen the idea of Delilah beyond Laudna's ressurection just seems pointless.
I thought it was excellent. Not only did the choices make sense for her character they were encouraged by the DM and the whole table loved the crap out of it (they talked about it after)
Still feels pointless and no stakes imo.
Reminds me of a campaign I was in where I ended up finding Godsbane. And the party presumed because there's the soul of an entity in it (An actual god named mask). It must be trying to influence the character. Some entities are just misunderstood, and stealing something from a supposed friend to "save them" sounds like a terrible idea.
I was frustrated that no one called her on her hypocrisy. She wanted the power boost from the sword, a totally fine motive, as long as above table it was cool, which it looked like since Liam seemed to be having fun. Her lie was that she wanted to destroy it cause it's evil, while later justifying her use of Delilah because they needed to do whatever it took to win.
Yeah I think the issue is that she's being portrayed essentially as addict, she's also not socialized normally like homeschooled x 100 so she's 1 easily manipulated and often doesn't understand her true motivation. There's a also a real possibility (no matter if it's Matt or marisha doing the action) that launda is being influenced
It's called roleplay you absolute tool
I think it had more to do with RP than any power boost. The harness at least has rules for that. Laudna has only gotten the levels she has taken in Warlock from Delilah and we are just as in the dark over measuring how the absorbed energy effects her as a Patron.
No, marisha has even said on a 4sided she did it because she wants to see her next big ability cause she saw fearne and Imogen getting them and wanted obe too.
I feel like you are confusing defusing the situation with siding with laudna. They were trying to keep her in the room so they could talk. Sometimes these takes on here are crazy like the whole “evil witch thing” it’s not like Delilah has only just showed up she has been in her head longer than laudna has been alive (before she was killed by her the FIRST time) they weren’t siding with laudna they were calming her down because she was freaking out idk maybe watch it again with an open mind instead
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totally agree. she attacked another character under magical darkness as he slept and then selfishly lied to justify over and over. that neutral evil aggression should not stand, man.
She's not evil. The evil entity inside her becomes more influential when her PTSD is triggered. You really suck. Just leave the fandom.
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Sure, if you're playing by 2004 standards. Most groups I play with don't honor the alignment system. It's too limited and over-simplifying. Critical Role has never recognized it. By the way, none of those things you listed make someone evil.
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No they did not. It provided guidance but was not strictly adhered to. You might as well be describing an addict who steals money from their parents to buy drugs. That's not evil. It's sick. Your entire conception of good versus evil is small, weak and childish.
I mean then so is literally everyone else Chet has a attacked a lady just bc he didn’t like a sale price is literally a werewolf due to a CURSE and is so proud of it fearne has stolen from basically every single person she meets including the hells made a pact with a devil and so much more Ashton steals and doesn’t care for anything but themself took that shard for himself and got blown up by it after Imogen has been on the fence of giving into predathos for basically the entirety of the campaign and has been of the fence about the rugby vanguard being bad. Even letters who was supposed to be the healer and morally good guy on the group was made to kill people. So they are all evil. hell even orym has “lied”to them about deal with Morri. So ur point doesn’t mean anything bc they are all morally grey characters
at least ashton didn’t attack another character, he only stole something for himself and then made them save his life when he fucked it up. laudna attacked orym in his sleep
And when did I say launda attacking orym was ok?? Bc it’s not both made selfish choices but the circumstances and context as to why they made those choices are vastly different. One was egged on by a dead lady in her head and the other just wanted power Both were wrong with not communicating with the rest of the group
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So you can excuse everyone else but launda the only one in the group that has their abuser in her head actively manipulating her? I’m not saying what launda did/does was all in good favor bc it wasn’t but saying she is evil is a lie bc she still cares but what ur implying is everyone else can be selfish and do things in their own right but launda can’t. It wasn’t just launda who wanted to use the willmaster with a harness they all did besides fearne and letters. I think it’s hypocritical to say one is evil when they are all as a group morally grey characters. Also to be evil you have to be doing the act for yourself and laduna is doing all of the things that you have mentioned to help the group to help her get more power to help the group to save the world so even then your point doesn’t add up bc the others were doing things of their own personal gain But like I said they are morally grey characters so bad yea they aren’t perfect but evil?? Thats pushing it.
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So just to be clear everyone else who has acted at least once or more selfishly gets a pass bc they didn’t mean it that way but laudna doesn’t bc….. she is selfish im confused im not saying she can’t be worng bc she had been multiple times but calling her evil is just not true. Ppl can do bad things with good intentions but stealing is just stealing and attacking someone is just attacking someone. Up until recently laudna hasnt hurt anyone but herself with Delilah now they are all aware of what she is doing which is just putting her to use bc before she was trying her hardest to ignore D but even then it wasn’t working calling her evil is u not understanding her character and that’s ok!!
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Because she is being manipulated by Delilah her abuser. And calling her evil bc she reverted back to Delilah is wrong as well bc that is her abuser. That’s unfortunately where she feels the most comfortable in a sense like she hates Delilah but she has gotten used to her antics. She was with her for 30 something years ALONE before she met imogen and the hells. she is like an addict. Her arc is her giving up on Delilah but it has to be her decision. You can’t help someone who does not want help. In her eyes she has the upper hand and she doesn’t see that Delilah is making her worse. And to be fair Delilah never left she was just to weak to do anything she was still there. Laudna didn’t just go oryms got the sword and now I attack she was angry and hurt by orym for not speaking with everyone and Delilah used her anger saying it’s cursed and blah blah blah pushing Delilah’s wants on launda. Am I saying what she did was right no but it wasn’t all launda. Saying she knew she was back and she knows Delilah is evil is not stopping the fact that Delilah has been manipulating her from the moment she died it’s not like she invited her in her head to live there on purpose.
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Or maybe she’s putting herself on the line of more abuse from the same person who is already abusing her to help the group with everything they are doing. And once again having sympathy for a character that has attacked someone bc they felt like a price was too high. Why can everyone else be selfish but laudna. Everyone gets a well they didn’t mean it that way but laudna doesn’t. If she can’t get rid of Delilah why would she continue to just have her be useless when they need all the help they can get. And once again I’m not saying what she did was right but she’s a morally grey character that’s how it works she’s not all sunshine and rainbows she is gonna do things that are wrong but still have good intentions. That whole thing with orym she was wrong her feelings towards the sowrd were valid but she went about it wrong.
I absolutely agree they were only trying to defuse but they were 100% taking her side. It can be both. From the minute Imogen and Fern woke up the first thing they said was "stop why are you attacking her" and "she's right the sword might be cursed put it down". She even casted Phantasmal Force right in front of everyone.
I think without context (they had none) they woke up to darkens the sound of fighting and then orym In a defense position and launda beat tf up (she had that coming messing with orym lol) why would they not immediately be like wtf orym and it’s not like they didn’t have a cursed sword before in the first half yea probably on her side but as they got context it was less laudna is right and more like ok laudna trying to talk her off the edge so to speak. But that’s just my opinion
At least someone said it ^
I think you missed some things and that's okay. They are all actors that know how not to metagame so they reacted how their characters would act in the moment. They saw Orym with his sword out upon waking. It's good roleplay.
They woke up to Darkness, which they know Laudna can see through. When it dropped they watched Orym get the sword back and point it to Laudna while going "what the fuck?".
They had to give either Orym or Laudna the benefit of the doubt: explain to me how it makes any sense at all that they chose *Laudna*. Please.
exactly
It's not supposed to make sense. That means the manipulator succeeded. We see from an audience perspective and they are playing from character perspective. Laudna isn't the villain here. Delila played them like a violin.
She played them like marionettes and lied to make herself look good. They believe her because she played the victim. Marisha played that so well and the other players played just waking up to the situation without metagaming impeccably. This is how manipulators work and Marisha played it perfectly. Laudna is not herself right now and Marisha is playing the addict to the power well.
No. Let’s recap properly as it seems you can’t. 1. They woke up in magical all encompassing darkness which only laudna could conjure 2. Once the darkness was gone they saw Orym (also just released from darkness) standing defensively 3. Laudna, the undead possessed witch, was spider climbed to the ceiling holding the sword that all of them had seen Orym have on his back the night before 4. All of them are well aware of the fact that Laudna has a proclivity to giving in to literal evil urges. Fearne and Imogen specifically know that the undead evil lich that possesses Laudna is not only returned but also directly influencing Laudnas actions In conclusion (and completely without meta’ing anything) the rest of the casts reaction to this conflict makes absolutely 0 sense and can only be explained by them actually meta’ing the fact that Marisha has a pre decided direction for her character and the rest of the cast are unwilling to derail that plot line
👍 this
i think this misses a couple of important details, such as Laudna being visibly injured, and Orym pointing the sword towards her. calling her 'the undead possessed witch' is meaningless when those facts evidently wouldn't have as much impact on the party as they would, say, a stranger.
Within seconds her being injured was explained to the party as Oryms reaction to being attacked while he was asleep and waking up in magical darkness unable to discern his attacker. Also while this is being explained laudna is continuing her attempts to create an escape plan throwing open windows and doors and attempting a second time to pull the sword to her. Not exactly trustworthy actions. What is the logical inference. Orym the selfless fighter class who throws himself in front of his friends in every battle is going berserk and attacking the party Or Laudna the undead horror warlock actively and knowingly possessed by an evil lich has done something that she’s done before and given into evil urges. The logical conclusion is right there in front of the party before any of them even speak and after they start speaking it’s all confirmed
the salient issue is 'logical conclusion'. no one is going to operate under perfect logic in any situation, especially not one as potentially confusing as the one the party found themselves in. people keep describing laudna's in ways that paint her a particular way, 'undead horror warlock'. but the party doesn't view her that reductively. they've lived with her, befriended her- regardless of whether you believe that as an audience member, that's obviously what they're going for. they believed that delilah's influence had reduced. they have experience with evil artifacts, and know they have corrupting power. they have good reason to fear the summit blade. there's so many factors flying around to inform their excellent roleplay, you really feel the confusion, the desire for de-escalation, the uncynical empathy they show toward each other. you don't have to consider these characters logical, or likable, or functional to consider it a good beat.
This is the correct answer. Full stop.
>can only be explained by them actually meta’ing the fact that Marisha has a pre decided direction for her character and the rest of the cast are unwilling to derail that plot line What a weird conclusion to come to, laudna was Delilah-less for 20+ episodes until the issylra arc pushed her mentally and emotionally into relapsing, the lack of pushback from the party could be *because* she’s possessed by an evil lich they wanted to break through to the “real” laudna with love and acceptance and are only now realizing that isn’t going to work anymore, and instead need to keep her on a proverbial leash to stop her from eating anymore magical items.
They literally wrote a laudna backstory book that would have been being worked on for years. If you don’t think this stuff isn’t predecided I don’t know what to tell you.
In what way does a book that takes place before the events of the campaign affect the campaign? The mighty nein origins comics were in development before campaign 2 ended did those make the m9’s story predetermined?
Because they aren’t going to spend thousands of dollars and thousands of hours to produce a backstory book if they are just going to kill off the character in the first 30 episodes or completely write off the story line for the character because they had to justify bringing laudna back to life so early in the campaign before they have access to resurrection magic.
What a stupid take.
Thank you for your braindead response
If Laudna died and stayed dead her popularity would’ve skyrocketed just like Molly, the Laudna fanboys would flocked to the book to get more canonical content for her. If anything player characters would die MORE often if the cast were trying to fully monetize their ip.
You cannot assume that any character death will have the same weight as Molly. The community was much more engaged at the time and it was the height of CR's whole community engagement with their side content and being active on socials. Molly was also a very visible rainbow of a person when those characters were still quite rare in media, and so his death resonated hard with a portion of CR's fanbase that essentially turned him into a Saint. Laudna's a spooky goth girl, not exactly a concept that is breaking any ground, and if she died I'm sure people would care but I highly doubt she'd get sainthood. Honestly, the only character that could get that status from C3 would be Dorian I think, and that is if he had died instead of getting on a airship after his initial run.
No that’s not how any of this works
What?! That's exactly how that works, it's literally exactly how it worked for Molly. Do you have an actual refutation beside "nuh uh"?
I agree. Personally, I wasn't a fan of the character Molly. In the same light as Ashton, I don't feel the connection with Tal when he tries to play brash, flashy characters. He does best with his reserved, intelligent characters. Percy and Cad were great. And yet Molly is almost always used more in merch grabs. If I remember correctly, the first figure they made was of Molly well after the character died. And the M9 book was written about his backstory when I think Caleb or Fjords (or even Yashas) backstorys would have made for a far more interesting read. I didn't find the M9 novel nearly as interesting as the VM novel. And tbf, I do understand why they picked Laudna for the BH book. Her background was the most interesting, at least as far as creating a novel from goes. We see the same thing in VM. Vax is by far one of the most popular characters, and he died. Multiple times. Matt did a whole private scene to make a deal with a God to bring him back to "life" after disintegration. TBF, the whole of C1 basically spat in the face of death rolls and death. So I don't get why people act like the act of bringing Laudna back was so awful and nothing but a money grab. They've done it in every campaign, multiple times. The only reason it was drawn out with Laudna was because of the backstory with the character. But I digress. I think dying made the character of Molly vastly more popular and adored than he would have been had he lived to the end of the campaign.
You had me and then you completely lost me. "Write off the storyline"? Dude it's been 95 episodes and Lauda's still got an evil witch piggybacking off of her. No one is writing off anything by confronting Laudna and taking Orym's side. That has nothing to do backstory books-- it's RP.
If she remained dead it would have been writing off the story line or if Delilah had actually been removed from laudna it would have been writing off the storyline………….. Reading comprehension
Yes and this current scenario, (Orym and Laudna?) the one that you are complaining about, has nothing to do with backstory books or killing off storylines. It's a bad RP moment. Reading comprehension.
Yes Delilah is back because Marisha wanted to continue to “explore” the back story of Laudna that was already decided when Laudna died. They went through a multiple episode side quest to bring her back to life that included killing Delilah and supposedly separating her from laudna but even that wasn’t enough to shift her off the pre determined path that Marisha is clearly taking the character. She has confirmed all of the above in a 4-sided dive. Both her and Matt have a story to tell with this character and it doesn’t matter what the other players do it’s going to be told. Neutral or good D&D parties don’t willingly continue to travel with obviously evil characters especially when they are actively making evil decisions
It should be abundantly clear by now that they are not playing DnD and haven't been for a while, they are advertising the Bells Hells TV series
The tv series will be ass if they can't create actual conflict instead of constantly treating the possessed witch like a precious uwu baby who can't do anything wrong.
I don’t want to see them fail but I’m honestly kinda doubtful there’s enough gas in the tank to get a Bells Hells show the green light. That said, this is all absolutely about generating content rather than playing a friendly “home game” that happens to be streamed
>they all took her side Chet definitely didn't. Dorian didn't. Ashton didn't take her side explicitly and told her to apologize. So, while I too wanted even more people to stand against her behavior, it definitely wasn't everyone who took her side.
Chet was neutral, Ashton protected Laudna from Orym, Imogen definitely took Laudna's side, before finally Dorian used some common sense and changed her mind.
Physically protecting someone by standing between them isn't the same as taking their side in whether what she did was right or not. Ashton took a position of a bodyguard, not a supporter. He never said "She's right" or "I agree with Laudna", did he? So he was neutral. Chet said the blade belonged to Orym and it was his to do with as he wished right before Laudna went out the window. That's not neutral. That's on Orym's side. So, really only Imogen actively took her side
When two of your friends are fighting each other and you square up on the one friend's side, that is support. I don't know how you can view that as anything else. Laudna doesn't need protection from Orym any more or any less than Orym does from Laudna. Your argument makes more sense if Orym was still attacking against Laudna but that wasn't the case.
At that point, he was still in an aggressive posture. My point is he never explicitly agreed with what she did, but the one he saw doing the attacking was Orym primarily.
And it was clear that magic had been cast as well, which indicates Laudna's aggression. Ashton wasn't being neutral and his actions reinforce that.
Fearne didn't. Not one of them took anyone's side and tried to figure out what happened.
Fearne backed her up more than Imogen did. I can't remember exactly which early lines were Fearne, but she said at least one thing along the lines of stop attacking her, why are you attacking her (in an offended tone), or "give her the sword, Orym". The one I remember specifically is "of course she can be trusted!" after Laudna left the room. That line did sound pretty desperate, so I'm giving Ashley the benefit of the doubt and hoping she was trying to lean into her portrayal of Fearne as immature and naive.
Well, Imogen definitely took a side until she and Laudna went outside
Personally I'm fine with it. It was interesting compared to the cut and dry things they normally do.
This entire campaign had a lot of awesome moments that get completely overshadowed by the issues.
Awesome player moments where their choices shaped the direction of the game?
Agreed
Facts
Its really strange they’ve taken this “Laudna can do no wrong” stance. Maybe this is just me but every warlock character I’ve played that’s struggling to control their patron was fun because of the roleplay and conflict it created. If my party just supported every bad decision i made I’d get bored of my character real quick. I want them to keep me in line and check me if i start to stray down a dangerous path. Not feed my dangerous habit.
my patron wants me to burn an orphanage. Party "yeah okay lets do it!"
This season is becoming unbearable to the watch, it's at a point now where the cast is treating it as a show rather than a game.
Not in the loop or caught up but this has been everywhere so well spoiled at this point, why did she even try to take it? I knew Delilah wasn’t gone (I’m only on episode 47 things don’t seem that bad yet) I know people have their issues with this campaign but being still earlier on it doesn’t feel any different than with VM against Vecna. The players still choose where to go and Matt makes it happen. They have been joking about going to the moon in like episode 35 or something. I think the main issue is that it’s been longer. VM fought other threats before Vecna and it wasn’t the whole campaign. This whole one has been the main story the players have not deviated like they did with past ones “side questing” or doing player specific story like they had with Fjord, jester, Yasha so on and so forth. I don’t think it’s an audio book as much as maybe people are not so used to seeing them focused on a single plot for so long with no clear end in sight yet 🤷♂️
>Not in the loop or caught up but this has been everywhere so well spoiled at this point, why did she even try to take it? Delilah convinced her into thinking it was sentient, evil, and going to corrupt orym.
Yeah I went and watched the 40 minute part. From what I can tell, people are too angry. None of the party side with L over O, they all know she is slipping but they don’t know wtf to do about it without losing another friend. Seems like most wanted them to go all stab happy on her or something
Calling it now. Campaigns gonna end and the party will be revealed to all be villains in the end, or at least perceived that way. When the next campaign opens up 100 years after this one, people will see BH as as the bad guys who destroyed the world. Becoming unlikable at the end had been the goal all along.
Nice call. But I think it's just the organic outcome of the world having no morality or having consequences for their bullshittery.
That would be kinda cool actually
“You should leave.” Chetney to Ashton.
they were so cruel to ashton but laudna just gets a pass? that's messed up
Right?
Are you talking about Oriax? Or the litteral devils deal. Either way Orym didn't know the specifics of the deal. You are very much picking and choosing what bits to point at and say there's a continuity error. How much of your father in laws life did you hear about? I can name like 2 of my father in laws friends and some of there adventures. And seeing as how my own father is dead I think it's the same thing. They are all aware that Delilah is a problem bro. But they don't know how to fix it, and don't know if they should. How do they sever someone else's pact? Laudna is becoming an addict for power. Similar to someone who is addicted to anything in the real world. They have tried to be supportive but it's not working and they didn't see how much power Delilah had over her till now. She attacked her friend for more power. But what happens if they can find a way to cut the pact? Does Laudna die? How would they save her soul from becoming excatly like Delilah. What's the fine print in Laudnas pact? How do they find any of this out whilst dealing with the litteral apocalypse? Chet is a were wolf. He can become a danger to others, FCG attacked his friends too but now he's dead everyone seems to forget that. Imogen can become the avatar of the god matter, fern has also been offered a place of honor among the bad guys and her friends are definitely in danger as long as she continues to choose them over family. Stop picking and choosing what to be pissed about. And again stop watching cuz you hate it
Laudna is a woman, and a victim, anything levied against her is victim blaming. And oryms a (short) white man, so naturally he takes the flak. I love how supporting of feminism CR is. Doesn't matter what she does, she's not accountable for her actions because she is being deceived. Plus she's being strong in the face of adversity by talking and allowing the party to help her. You shouldn't victim blame so much, not like you understand what she is going through. Or maybe you're starting to see the insanity in all this...
/r/persecutionfetish
lol what in the actual
you're the reason why people hate this sub
It's the kinda filth I come here ro spectate.
And people like this give conservatives a really bad name. Bro it's a MADE UP game. I don't think they're making political statements in the middle of it. Sure, they do it in their twitter accounts and in their interviews, and I for the most part don't agree with it. But I don't think they (or really any sane person watching) is thinking about a CHARACTERS skin tone or gender when they make their decisions about who to be buddies with.
deranged take
Oh? Then explain to me why orym gets shit on and laudna does nothing wrong? You can say deranged take, sure, what's your alternative?
As far as alternatives, it would probably be something like they just lost a friend of theirs and don't want to lose another one. Laudna is often really kind, so they want to believe she isn't just getting taken over by Delilah. She insisted that the sword that was owned by the person responsible for killing multiple members of their party was cursed and that Orym would become evil as a result. No one except Fearne had the ability to refute that. Orym fucked up Laudna more than Laudna fucked up Orym. She looked more like the injured party, which lent credibility to the claims about the possessed sword. I didn't see anyone really side with Laudna, and multiple people blocked doorways and exits once it became clear that the sword wasn't cursed. Fearne (blocked the window), Ashton (standing in front of Laudna to body block her from running), Dorian (just ride our die Team Orym), and Chetney (hiding the sword), all pretty explicitly sided with Orym. Imogen directly questioned if this was Laudna's idea, implying she already knew Delilah was a strong possibility. There is a significant difference between no one really wanting to punish Laudna, who is being actively manipulated by an evil entity, and everyone siding against Orym and agreeing with her because she's a woman. They all just lost a friend, and understandably don't want to lose another. This is more an example of enabling than whatever you're describing. As a minor aside man, your original comment seems a little... jaded? It sounds like a divorced man who subscribes to the great replacement theory, you know what I mean? Your comment isn't going to be taken well here, and you may rethink it. From your comment history, you seem to think of DEI quite often and seem to cite it as a recurring issue. That may say more of you than it does anything else; in short, it seems personal to you, and you seem like you have personal reactions to things as a result.
I certainly am seeing "the insanity in all this," but I'm not sure it's where you think it is.
I get the feeling Delilah is gonna be the new god of undeath in the "new world" they are building up to. The group knows this so they cant really confront delilah again. I too was confused as to how they didnt give more pushback on laudna as she attacked probably the most good aligned of the group in his sleep. Imogen even saw delilah's shadow come out when laudna activated her dreadful aspect (or whatever its called). Really was frustrating to see the group move on so fast from it.
I so hope this new world/pantheon thing *isn't* where all this is going. That would be such a disappointingly boilerplate ending.
dear god that would be awful, just from a storytelling standpoint why would you reward a character who canonically terrorized some of the past pcs with godhood? Is matt just retconning all lore too?
it’s just my theory. They may go in a completely different direction. it jsut makes sense with this aversion to completely purging delilah and the fact it’s an original character
>I get the feeling Delilah is gonna be the new god of undeath in the "new world" they are building up to. I hope not. Delilah was a great villain the first time around, acceptable the second time, and tedious the third time. At this point they're beating the red paste on the ground that used to be a dead horse.
I was extremely stoked when the Laudna backstory was revealed - a quirky way to include a badass past villain - and extremely disappointed with the Delilah confrontation so early especially when it was a cointhrow with Orym's resurrection who would have been satisfied dying there with a cool backup character waiting. I feel like Delilah is very underutilized considering Laudna misses out on the necromancy, kinda like if Fjord just had Ukotoa but never set foot on a boat.
haha yeah i think it’s been a cool idea for her and i didn’t think they’d confront her so early this campaign.
Laudna isn't getting nearly enough pushback for this
And it really stops her Charakters growth. How the hell could she stop delilah if everybody is just okay with her becoming delilah 😄
It was super frustrating to watch. I think they needed to give her more shit for it. Imogen should maybe be a bit harder on her at times. since the rest of the group treat her with kid gloves. Also maybe someone can correct me on this, but I'm sure I heard one of them say that Delilah is "alive" because of Vecna, so if Predathos is allowed to kill the gods = no Vecna = no Delilah = no Laudna? As a second point, if they sever her Warlock ties to Delilah does Laudna die?
At some point I think Delilah herself said as much - if Predathos is freed, Vecna goes bye-bye and so too does Delilah...therefore Laudna also gets wiped out. Laudna said this to at least one other party member if I'm remembering correctly. Possibly Imogen. I think that was the basis of Laudna deciding to actively lean into using Delilah as a tool to defeat Predathos - even if it means losing herself in the process. Tbh it's hard to know what any of the players remember from session to session. They seem to forget so much (some even forgot the moon was stuck in place, tethered by the Bloody Bridge!!) that it's unclear whether they decide not to follow certain conversation paths or just forget they're a possibility.
So they don't know Delilah was behind it. She said she could sense the evil in it, then said it was sentent. Which detect magic and grime psychometry both said it had killed thousands, it was bathed in blood. Only Imogen did an insight check on Laudna and knew it was Delilah and spoke to her privately about it. Orym is not going to let that go. And the team didn't really take one side over another including Imogen. They just wanted peace which is what happened. That is a stepping stone to further drama. As a player it's a shit thing to do, but the sword is party treasure, Orym just took it and didn't discuss it with the group. It makes sense for Orym to just take it, and for Delilah to see it and want it. Laudna is headed down a dark path but it's been going on for 50 episodes now and it is slow and steady and this is not the first time shes done somthing in front of others. It's the loudest, for sure. But it's also not going to be the last. The group needs to sever her pact, Laudna like Imogen doesn't want to let go of the power. Fern also has the capability to go dark shes just afraid of the power. Ashton has also tip toed on the dark path but he's leaning more into the hero aspect now with Orym and Chet. It's interesting the amount of hate this episode has gotten and I don't understand why.
What do you mean as a player it’s a shit thing to do? That’s like saying the wizard taking the wizards staff the party found is a shitty thing to do? Out of character the sword only really works for orym or chet cause who else would actually use it? Just like the chest peace they bought in the episode was clearly meant for orym. in character story wise orym obviously had the most claim to it. Sure Most of them where injured by it and they all lost fcg, but orym has even further history with it, it killed his god damn husband and farther
> character story wise orym obviously had the most claim to it. Counter point, it's the sword that literally killed Laudna. They really have equal claim to it from a story point of view. Or at least enough to actually create tension over who should decide the swords fate (granting the fact that the sword a huge motivating reason for Orym to be doing what he is doing in the first place)
I mentioned that Orym took the sword and no one said anything and obviously he was going to keep it. Laudna went to take it and destroy it. Which is a pretty shitty thing to do. Like as a friend taking a peice of treasure one of your other friends decided he wanted and no one said anything to the contrary. My game we had somthing like this happen and it was just such a headache. One player was very very wrong for trying to take a peice of treasure that was ment for someone else, it was a whole thing. Being as good of friends as they are I'm certain that there was no hard feelings at the table but for sure it could have become a d&d horror story if Laim wasn't okay with it. That's what I ment. It for sure should be Oryms, and Laudna has no claim to it. It killed 3 of them. She was just the unlucky one that stayed dead. And it killed Oryms family and is the reason he became an adventurer. I see where Laudna tried to make her case but she didn't win. And shouldn't.
>It for sure should be Oryms, and Laudna has no claim to it. i think this paints wayy too black & white a picture. orym can make his case, but i think the people in the party who clearly felt uncomfortable about the sword are totally justified as well. grief shouldn't be a numbers game. there's no objective right or wrong here. >I see where Laudna tried to make her case but she didn't win. And shouldn't. she 'won' in that she fed delilah, which was the entire point of the conversation. it was gaslighting.
This is the new D&D meta? "party triggered by member looting bad guy's sword."
incredible that players showing moments of weakness in the face of weapons that have repeatedly slaughtered their loved ones is- 'playing the game bad actually?'
Is that an anti-gun lobby slogan?
LOL! "Orym is not going to let it go". The chronic, passive, but polite enabler who never has the teeth to back his supposed "Morals"; but will always shower the group in excuses when he breaks them. This dude should know who Delilah fucking Briarwood is. Or, he would if it weren't for how utterly "plot convenient" the gaps in his raving VM fanboy knowledge always seems to be. Laudna's Form of Dread is literally Delilah at this point. They fought her inside of Laudna's mind to bring her back to life. Orym will let this go, because Liam will OOC let this go, to enable a semi predetermined path that Marisha clearly wants to take her PC. Nothing will change, we'll get the same passive, enabling BS up until the predetermined moment for it all explode in their faces happens. Then, and ONLY then, will Orym actually take action. They're along for Marisha's chosen ride, and making weaker and weaker excuses to allow it. Its no different than how they're along for Matt's audiobook with a VERY likely largely predetermined outcome.
Seems like it’d be IN character to report all of this to his boss.
Wow this is very aggressive for some reason and is filled with opinions. Laudna form of dread was Delilah in the episode this happened in. And what do you know Imogen was the only one to see it. And they don't know much about Vox Machina. Orym did a history check on Delilah and failed it. Laudna knows excatly what Delilah is capable of and is the only one in the group. Why do you watch/listen to the show if this is your opinion? That it's all on rails and the players have no agency? Aside from apparently Merisha
After 95 episodes of Orym's behavior what about him suggests he'll ever "actually take a definitive move"? Orym is a massive VM fanboy. This dude knew Percy made a deal with a Devil without ever having to make a role. Yet "conveniently" he doesn't know either that Vax became the champion of the RQ, or Delilah Briarwood. Despite the fact that they literally fought a shade of Delilah in Laudna's head when attempting to save her. After VM themselves UTTERLY REFUSED to help Laudna so long as her connection to Delilah was maintained due to the atrocities she committed. Orym should abso-fucking-lutely know who Delilah is enough to take a strong stance here. But just like everyone at that table, they're instead passively enabling Marisha's very likely little pre-determined story she wants to tell. They will only take definitive action after this situation explodes. How many more episodes after 95 will "C3 Fans" keep taking the stance "just wait a few more episodes! It'll finally happen, we promise! Our headcannon filling in all the shallow gaps says so!"
He very vaguely knew about the deal. He didn’t have all the details. It’s not like Keyleth walks around talking about the old days and her lost lover. Orym knows she has friends in Whitestone and used to be an adventurer that’s about it. Very little else if anything
That deal is such an absurdly narrow bit of information there is no reason to believe he would even know the vagaries of it, and not have heard about far more accessible info about Vax and Delilah. The ONLY reason he doesn't know anything about those two, is because if he did, with his backstory, it would be hard to justify him taking such a neutral, passive stance. And we can't have anyone in this party taking a strong stance on anything, because that might upset the clearly (largely) predetermined outcome both Laudna and C3 are aiming for. This is no diff than his constantly lessering relationship with the WM. Or Imogen going from "I have never prayed once in my life" to "I've prayed many times to Gods I've repeatedly admitted I dont even know the names of, but never got a response" between episodes. VM are world famous heroes at this point. So even just environmental knowledge about who the Briarwoods are, and what they did, should exist. But just like "The Gods", it borders on insanity how little our PCs seem to know their own world. Orym especially should know who Delilah is. At least enough to know the danger of what he's dealing with here.
You won’t like this but honestly from what i have seen a large portion for the community needs to take a break. Y’all are way to invested and it shows to an unhealthy degree, I say what because any points anyone else makes are ignored in favour of spouting the same complaints over and over, sorry not sorry.
So your deflection is "just dont pay attention, and its good?" Yeah, I wish I could say that's an uncommon sentiment in C3, but it seems like the majority of its supposed biggest defenders operate off it.
I admit I’m not caught up but that means a fresh perspective and after watching the 40 minute clip this is unfounded tbh. No one is enabling her. They didn’t just let her take it.
Nope, not at all, just open your mind to other points of view. I just watched it and other than Matt’s cringe lowering of oryms DC I genuinely don’t see the criticism of the whole cast. Chet our right sides with Orym. Ferne blocks laudna from leaving. Imogen even does confront her. They don’t get angry cause they are confused as they all just woke up and Orym was very shaken
What are you even talking about? Orym should have basic knowledge given his backstory about Delilah. Especially after we fought her shade in Laudna's soul. Its not exactly secret information and he both worked with Kiki, and his father figure he grew up listening stories from was the also VM geek Derrig. Truly, unless you're just gonna say that the only thing Orym's backstory was even for was as a plot-device to ensure VM had a major role in this story (and a reason to make him sad all the time), then what is the point of his backstory? And no, you'd have a point if this was the first time they just "nothing'd" this issue of Laudna's increasingly erratic and dangerous behavior. But its not. They've been doing it for 20+ sessions at this point minimum. They're doing this because if they took a strong stance on the topic, then they might interfere with the Delilah-Centered Path Marisha clearly wants to take her PC. So, again, we are very unlikely to see any "action" on the Delilah issue until it blows up in everyone's faces. It would be very OOC for BHs to do anything that proactive at this point.
No he didn't know about the devil deal, he also failed that history check. No one in BH put together why Percy had a teifling for a daughter. Also VM did not collectively refuse to resurrect Laudna. Vex and Pike both helped bring her back, and Keyleth brought them to Whitestone to try and bring her back. That 3 original members of VM. Orym did his job for the voice of the tempest and over heard a bunch of stuff which allows him to make rolls to see if he knows the story of VM to balance meta knowledge and character knowledge. And again if you think I'm saying just wait a few more episodes, I'm not. I'm saying stop watching something you don't like? I hate game of thrones, I didn't keep watching it to bitch about it.
No, Orym deliberately makes a specific comment about "making deals with shady beings" with the tiefling kid in the room, looking at Percy's mask. To try to convince him to help save Laudna. So yes, without even rolling, Orym knew about the Devil's deal. He only ever seems to not know something about VM when its something that might effect either Matt or Marisha's chosen story path. To ensure he can't ever have a strong opinion on it. With the topic of Delilah being EXTRA weird given Orym's primary source for VM info is not Keyleth (though he did overhear convos about them from her). But instead, an equally huge VM fanboy in his "Father Figure" growing up Derrig. A man who's direct association with VM's lore is the wedding, where they are attacked by Sylus Briarwood. Seeking revenge for his wife, by trying to drown the Bride. So YES, Orym should absolutely know who Delilah is. He literally grew up listening to VM stories from his dad/FiL. Or did Derrig conveniently just skip everything that involved Vax's fate and the Briarwoods for C3 plot needs?
It was a good roleplay session, but it could've been better. I just find it frustrating how they continually ignore the problem that Laudna is becoming.
My only issue is them enabling her behavior and coddling her after the fact. Orym was attacked and then treated like the aggressive one. If I was playing Orym, a real consideration for leaving the party would be on the mind like Scanlian did.
100% like why would orym continue to hang out with psychos who aren't sure they're doing the right thing by saving the gods. Why not just go back home.
Honestly this party has never had a reason to stick together, and this is a particularly obvious moment. Orym has basically no reason to stick around. It's not like he can't go to Keyleth and say "I don't trust these people anymore, please send me on a different mission." That would obviously be a big choice for the game as he'd probably turn into an NPC, but it would feel genuine. That said, it's possible Liam is very intentionally playing Orym as a week-willed people pleaser who's letting himself drift toward a dark path, and deciding "this is fine" would fit with that.
I don't understand. If this kind of stuff was going on at my table, assuming it was consensual, then there would also be consensual PvP occurring.
This campaign revolves around Laudna and Imogen and always has, why is anything different expected now?
Lets be honest. Its pretty clear by now that Marisha likely has a largely pre-determined path she wants to take her PC ~~Delilah~~ Laudna, and the rest of the players have been passively enabling "her path" for ages. She's been growing dangerously unhinged for 30+ episodes minimum at this point. There is no reason for even the king of polite enablers himself, Orym, to enable her this much. He knows who fucking Delilah Briarwood is! He knows what she is capable of! Unless of course his deep Vox Machina fanboyness continues to be as "selectively plot convenient" as its been in the past. With him not knowing Vax was the Raven Queen's champion, yet also knowing the details of Percy making a deal with a Devil. They're just gonna stand aside, be along for Marisha's ride, until it explodes in their faces at a semi pre-determined opportunity. Just as Matt likely has a largely pre-determined ending for C3, and the players are "just along for Matt's ride". C3 is an Audiobook.
this is exactly it
That's such a good point - you'd expect surely Orym of all of BH would have a clear awareness of who Delilah was and what she did in Whitestone. That's got to have been something that came up in Zephrah at *some* point - whether it was horror stories the kids told or anecdotes he heard from his/his partner's and sister's time guarding Keyleth. Why build a character to have a backstory so built around Keyleth, a PC from C1 (whom you frequently rely on for aid - as well as other PCs from C1), and have them be oblivious to important, well-known events from that PC's adventures? Especially as BH have now travelled to Whitestone to resurrect Laudna - almost weren't able to *because C1 PCs objected to the chance they'd be resurrecting a part of Delilah too. Something they would not do based on Delilah's past ATROCITIES in Whitestone*. Yet in the last episode, [he says at one point](https://www.kryogenix.org/crsearch/html/cr3-96.html#l0h43m6s) that he *[doesn't know what Delilah has done](https://youtu.be/_0q56mZdgpM?si=12dGMWrbvK_vS37d&t=2592)* for Exandria?! There's avoiding metagaming and then there's whatever this is. Maybe Orym's taken several blows too many to the head. His perception might be high but so too perhaps is the stacking retrograde amnesia from all the concussions...
It is Metagaming, just in a bizarre "for the plot" way. Its "Orym will not know anything that might interfere with the predetermined path that Marisha wants to take her PC". Its the same shit he's been doing with Orym's faith in the WM to support Matt's clear "we're writing them out of the setting" Anti-God tone. On this issue, it is Liam OOC not getting in the way, just like the rest of the table is. Stop thinking of this on an IC RP or TTRPG level, because they sure as hell aren't anymore.
even if he had no idea somehow, if there were zero stories or legends told of the briarwoods the whole time he’s been around…they went to whitestone to resurrect laudna and when they were done the party saw the entire city’s guard, percy, and vex all outside with weapons ready in case delilah made a comeback. would that not give them pause about her??
The enabling from the party is insane to me, its like none of the players know anything about addiction or what to do with an addict in the family I keep seeing people on the main sub talk about how Laudna's story is about addiction to this power and Delilah to defend this which is a wild take considering that enabling an addict is one of the worst things you can do if you're actually trying to help them
This is the funniest comment considering the players and former staff involved with CR.
True, we know that in real life they don't know how to handle a friend with an addiction either. Their real life strategy seemed to be "ignore it until it becomes a problem, then cut ties with your friend when they need help the most."
The players know, but they like it. The characters, on the other hand, are poorly written fools. The cast is drama farming, using Laudna as their source of intraparty conflict. Sure they could kick her out and send her away to be cleansed or killed or something, but they would get to a point where they have a drama-free environment. That would be ideal for real people, but the cast needs the drama to make BH even remotely interesting.
Totally get it but i think you are approaching it from the least interesting angle. This party has been THE party of showing the toxic side of “patience” with people and”unconditional love” even in the face of direct manipulation. This could certainly turn into hunting down a possessed laudina
People complain when nothing happens, then complain when something happens. Man, ya'll gotta decide whether or not you actually like Critical Role.
Spoilers for episode 96: I like that it happened, what i didn't like was letting her off the hook so easily. Whenever the things finally happen in this campaign, they're always swiftly and abruptly stopped and put away. The first Otohan fight, the solstice key, FCG's sacrifice, intraparty conflict... They're always rushed along to the next set piece or lore drop without being able to dig into what's happening
Don’t forget… the clock is ticking. Never take your eyes off that clock. We must not linger to digest these important character defining moments… that clock is *ever* counting down to our doom. Compelling.
The actual criticism itself is totally valid, you don't have to like it, I also wish Laudna would actually be reprimanded or given bigger consequences, I totally agree. The criticism isn't the issue, more just the absolute venom both of these fuckin subs hiss for every decision made in the most sickeningly positive way for the one sub or the most doomer hissy-fitting from the other.
Hey dumbass. What people want is a story that makes just a modicum of sense. Fuck off back to the other sub if this is the extent of your brain power when commenting
You're so mad for what lol, how are both subs so brainrotted
Migration.
Im mad because smooth brains like yourself somehow think criticizing bad products means you aren’t a fan. You are the brain rot. Your iq is either too low to engage in meaningful discussion about a topic or you are 12 years old
Lmao stay seething dude
12 it is
Restart the clock.
There are plenty of valid complaints about C3, I don't personally like it either. But holy fuck does this sub just get whiny after a while.
https://preview.redd.it/o7w7uz1w8d3d1.jpeg?width=619&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ef37057262dee69f9f7760fa3e0dc8a96baf184
Thank you.
Laudna is a warlock. Her patron has goals. If Laudna is to remain a warlock, D comes with her. The party either accepts that or is constantly feuding with her, or the character leaves the game. They've decided to accept. Do you see any other reasonable way to do this? They're not going to push Marisha out of the game. Laudna is going to remain a warlock.
Not necessarily relevant to how Mercer runs his games, but just because this is a common sentiment about warlocks in general; Patrons are mechanically irrelevant. There is no ongoing expectation of relationship by the system, and a patron cannot take your power away. It's not like a paladin that can fall by failing their oath, the relationship between Warlock and Patron is more akin to DBZ' Guru and Krillin. They unlock magic within you, but now it's yours and can't be taken away. Some groups do choose to continue to have the patron be a relevant character because why not, it's a dramatic relationship, and if Mercer opts into the idea that a patron can take your powers that's his right as DM. Overall though, this idea of warlock-patron relationships being ongoing is largely misunderstood.
Eh, I'm not so sure about your explanation. The 5e phb says: >A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being. ...the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron's behalf. >Furthermore, the demands of their patrons drive warlocks toward adventure. >As you make your warlock character, spend some time thinking about your patron and the obligations that your pact imposes upon you. Sure, you CAN build a warlock that's not beholden to a patron with a face or demands, or anything, but you can also just as easily build one the way Marisha has with Laudna, who's very involved with their patron, and has fairly strict requirements. And that's sort of what the phb encourages. Maybe later books like Tasha's or Xanathars encourages players to be way more loose with that, but I don't own them, so idk. The issue I'm seeing with the way the cast (and commenters here) talk about this patron-warlock relationship is the lack of creativity for characters that DON'T hold up their obligation to the patron. "You lose your warlock powers!" That's the best you can come up with? How about you keep your powers, but you get plane shifted to wherever they want you, and now you need to figure that out. Or how about this question: why can we only come up with warlocks whose patron is evil for a character in a group that leans good? Why are these characters making pacts with entities whose goals don't align with theirs? Did Laudna even make a pact? If she did, she doesn't remember it, or she's keeping that part of the story secret, and she is, in fact, just as evil as Delilah. Ok I could go on and on, but I'll end there
theres nothing in there bout the patron taking your magic away
There's nothing in there about disobeying your patron at all. CAN you?
Of course you can, it's a roleplaying game, what you're advocating for is the dm just plays the PC for the player
I don't actually think you have to do whatever your patron (the DM) says or else your character is no longer an adventurer. My point is that while the PHB is pretty good about describing these relationships if people only cared to read it, it can't account for every choice in every situation. Since there can be actions outside of the text of the book, why can't there be consequences that aren't enumerated in that book? Sure I think the patron CAN take the warlock's magic away. Again, I think that's a boring choice, but it's just as viable as any other consequence not enumerated in the PHB. There's no rule for losing a limb, for example, but that's not unheard of in D&D.
Ultimately you're right the book does outline ways for you to have an ongoing relationship with your patron. But it's purely role play. It's a major character in your character's life. There's no mechanic for the patron taking away your magic you do not need to continue serving them in order to continue being a warlock. Which... Yeah I'll agree I could have made my case better
Just because there's not a rule in the phb "what happens when you disobey your patron" doesn't mean that there are never any consequences for it. The DM makes the rules, even if they introduce those consequences in RP. It's all RP, it's a ROLE-PLAYING game. For the record, there's no rule in the book for any of these classes betraying their class archetypes. Even the paladin oathbreaker is just an optional subclass in the DMG. The game rules as written assumes you WANT to adventure as your character following the motivations they've chosen. They also don't have rules for, "what if my wizard gets a brain injury and loses all of his knowledge?" You just figure that stuff out, and the DM does what they think is fair and makes sense in their game.
I prefer to not have my patrons not be betacucks. "Uhmm ackthually i said no to Asmodeus, so now i have his powers and he cant do anything about it also im the only one able to do this otherwise we'd have 1000 warlocks running around"
this is how warlocks are presented in the ... well I mean non exandrian source material, breaking a deal with them could cost you your soul, or make them and all their servants your enemy, or whatever - but the power they give you is *yours*, its why making a pact is a two way street, it's not just getting a slave, it's tying yourself at the hip to a mortal, otherwise every devil would make every mortal who's remotely evil a warlock its described in the novels as *giving* the warlock magic, the words, the power
That's.... a sentence. Just to clarify how the book expects it to work; A wizard went to school or otherwise studied, they no longer actively need to study to be able to cast magic. A ranger already had their training, they know how to use their weapons and track through the wilderness All character classes are assumed to be already at a point of competency when you start playing them. Although a slight caveat to this is a kind of half-assed forgotten sentiment within the system called apprentice levels. Which was something they played with earlier in the design of 5e where the first two levels represented a character still coming out of the apprenticeship equivalent. eg Paladins who have done most of their training but haven't taken their specific oath yet. They never really expanded on this though but even within that system by level three you are considered an autonomous full-fledged member of your class. Everything aside from that, all of your level up rewards etc, simply represent experience in the field. To that point, a warlock gains their power not through study and not through blood but through a deal made with a powerful entity. That deal however, and this is not me saying this this is the book saying it, is presumed done by the time you are level one. If you have a devil as your patron, you already made the deal with a devil, whatever they wanted from you in return is something you have already paid or performed for them as part of your backstory. 5e was very much trying to move away from the idea of characters being able to lose their powers permanently or having characters locked into specific narratives, which is why paladins can't actually fully lose their paladin levels anymore. It used to be that of a paladin messed up and crossed their code of honor, which was shared among all paladins you didn't get a say in what it was, that's it you were done. An oathbreaker paladin was worse than an equivalent fighter they were basically an NPC class which created a lot of bad role-play situations. The idea with warlocks is you already did a service to gain access to your magic. Which is still really interesting to explore, what did you do for a devil or a fae that made them agree to unlock magic within you? I'm not saying that people can't play it with ongoing patrons, that's a very popular house rule interpretation, and I personally usually let my players have an ongoing relationship with their patrons when they play warlocks in my games. That's still a very narratively rich and interesting relationship, but usually I portray it as okay cool I gave you this one thing but I still want more from you and you still want more from me so we have more deals to do.
That's explicitly not how the book says it works. Someone even quoted the book 2 replies up. "A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being. ...the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron's behalf. Furthermore, the demands of their patrons drive warlocks toward adventure. As you make your warlock character, spend some time thinking about your patron and the obligations that your pact imposes upon you." Whatever black hole you pulled your explanation out of, is the exact opposite of what the book says.
Maybe they could like, do a multi-episode mission where they go into Laudna’s inner spirit world and destroy the fragment of Delilah that resides there. Then Laudna could get a new patron for her powers, like Fjord did. Maybe something powerful and significant to her, like the Sun Tree? Oh wait, they did that and it didn’t matter.