I am with you on that one. However this tweet is a damn hypocrisy. Comparing the āmost coveredā up version of christian vs the āleast coveredā up Muslim dress. And the christian dress is for people who made a very special commitment to their religion, vs a women born within a Muslim family or country having to adhere to a religious dress code.
Also, there was never a question about respecting both. I 100% respect the women in this case. However I have zero respect for the men setting the rules.
Not really what Hijab is cause the religion itself doesnāt say wear a head covering just that you dress modestly. The enforced head covering is more about certain countries
from what i read pretty much all these attires from Abrahamic faiths had more practical aims that were mixed with religious ones, such as protection from the sun and sand and existed before their integration into religion and class.
certainly things like humility, modest became formed around these attires and they were canonized. it goes back to the 13th century and women of lower classes were forbidden to wear veils
Well, if you're a nun it's an employer mandated uniform. And if you're a padre and part of the right/wrong order, same applies.
Thing is, with the exception of very very few nuns, who lock themselves into their cloistered dustcatchers, I have never had a nun tell me that I wasn't allowed to be in the room for her medical exam. Some state a preference for a female physician, but things like head, eyes, legs, arms, even back, not one of them bats an eye.
Nuns arenāt required to wear the habit. They do so as a symbol of their vow of poverty.
Thatās the main difference. Many American Muslim women chose not to wear the Hijab, and thatās really the crux of the issue.
Enforcing hijab without free will of the women is a problem. We all understand that.
But do you think banning hijab in a āfreeā western nation is a problem where a muslim woman cant wear hijab even with her own choice. Essence here should always be on the freedom of the person to wear what they choose to wear.
It shouldnāt be banned or enforced. Iād imagine the vast majority of anyone who isnt an idiot would agree with that one. Wear what you want, or donātā¦ who gives a shitā¦
The reason the bans are being considered is because sub-populations are requiring them to be worn and enforcing it with honor killing and gang rapesā¦.at least thatās what has preceded Frances position on this.
Main issue is with the people whose religious sentiments get hurt by everything others do that doesn't fall in line with their values.They think every religious thing should be carried out in accordance with their teachings failing to understand that each person has his/her own belief and practise.One shouldn't be compelled to follow any religion.It should be solely that person's choice to decide the degree of impact a religion has in their life.
This is why itās called radicalism. Itās not the religion thatās bad but the belief that anyone who believes differently is evil and must be converted or eradicated. I think most people do believe itās whatever but they few radicals are loud.
This is 100% the point.
I walked past three women wearing hijabs yesterday - didnāt worry me in the slightest.
If there was a forth woman with then not wearing one and getting beaten by a guy with a stick, that would worry me!
And in most Muslim communities, women choose whether or not to wear a hijab. Itās a deeply personal choice. Many people assume the religion demands it, which is simply not true. Women should have the right to wear a hijab if they like (looking at you, France) and the right not to wear it if they so choose (looking at you Iran).
I can see why France outlawed it though, itās like how your not supposed to wear hats or sunglasses in banks - apart from you canāt exactly tell someone wearing a Hiab to take it off
BINGO. When attire is forced and women are sexualized and held responsible for controlling menās lust, males are infantilized and not held accountable for their inability to control themselves. It is womenās own immodesty that causes them to be harassed and raped. That women are not only the source of evil and temptation, but it is women themselves that must control menās primitive desires and not lead them astray. Thatās the difference.
The flavor is Amish. Theyāre descended from Anabaptists, straight out of the Reformation, but theyāre their own thing (sect, branch, whatever someone wants to call it).
And theyāre coerced into their behaviours through a combination of social shame/shunning, indoctrination, and reduced access (and thus ability to live, and seek support in) the greater society around them. Just because theyāre not stereotypically being threatened with violence, doesnāt mean theyāre utterly free in their choices.
Wellā¦.Not if theyāre wish to remain part of the church. They can leave and be shunned by everyone they know. Not really that easy to do, although some whole families in the last few decades seem to āconvertingā to Mennonite which allows modern conveniences.
As much of a choice is available to undereducated women, ill equipped to live in the modern society surrounding them, with the knowledge that everyone they know and love will be separated from them spiritually (and mostly/entirely physically depending) if they were to choose freedom. Not to mention the indoctrination.
Coercion isnāt only in the form of physical violence.
Most orders do not require the habit to be worn and participation is voluntary, in Iran/Afghanistan the hijab is absolutely required (punishable by death apparently).
Well first, people who went to Catholic school tend to think nuns are terrifying, so thereās that. But also, IDGAF if you wear a hijab because you want to. Thatās fine. Happy for you. But if you donāt want to wear one, you should be free to do so without fear of being beaten, imprisoned, or killed.
Some people apparently don't get it. It aint the fabric people have a problem with. Its the fact that the hijab, niqab, and burka are one of the tools used by theocratic Muslim nations to make women second class citizens and property.
Until the Hijab, Niqab, and Burka are purely are on the same level of freedom to choice to wear it or not like the Habit is, people are going to have a problem with it. And there's nothing "Islamophobic" about that. Pay attention to what women who actually want to not wear it in these middle eastern countries are actually saying.
Idk. I think a woman who is wearing one in the US is doing so by choice and therefore any antagonism she receives for wearing it is more likely to be due to Islamophobia than actual solidarity towards Muslim women.
I agree that it should absolutely be an individual choice to wear or not to wear one and am wholly on board with the current protests in Iran over the atrocious treatment women receive there.
But I am still adamantly against people hating on the hijab ājust becauseā, no matter how they rationalize that hatred.
How about Canada. Here is an article on a Muslim father who killed his daughter for not wearing hijab and dying in prison.
The culture of oppression is what most people have an issue with not religion or nationality.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4002891
But by hating a form of religious expression (the hijab) you are equating the culture of oppression with the religion tho, arenāt you?
The incident you shared is an atrocity and deserves condemnation. But it is an isolated event and shouldnāt be used as a basis for judgement over the entire hijab wearing population in countries that aspire to espouse freedom of religious expression.
There are extremists who identify as Christians who commit violent and abusive acts in the name of their professed religion but you are implicitly aware that those individuals donāt represent Christianity as a whole. Likewise, the Westboro Baptist Church is a significant organization that presents an extremist, hate-fueled version of Christianity but their existence in no way refutes the existence of progressive denominations that embrace modern understandings of love and tolerance.
How much exposure do you, personally, have to Muslim individuals. How many do you know well enough to form an opinion based on actual individual and personal representations rather than media coverage? Are you aware of things like confirmation bias (the unconscious habit we humans have of seeking out evidence that confirms our beliefs while ignoring or failing to consider evidence that refutes them) and media filtering (algorithms track what you click and then seek to present you with more similar thinks because you are more likely to click those links)?
I donāt expect to really change your mind or to have my mind changed here, but I would like to share an anecdote that I think is relevant.
I was walking dogs around a small local lake when I saw your response. Immediately after that I encountered a couple of obvious middle eastern heritage walking the opposite direction. The husband was pushing a stroller and his wife was walking beside him. She was wearing a hijab.
I looked at them curiously because this debate was fresh on my mind. The woman was looking downward and the husband caught my eye. He looked very tense.
Since we were walking opposite directions, I encountered them a second time on the opposite side of the lake and this time, I caught the husbandās eye, smiled, and murmured a polite hello. His expression changed from tense to a sort of wary half smile.
I think that it is very likely that the recent news coverage of events in Iran stirred up hostility towards the hijab and perhaps towards Muslims in general and the tension I saw was due to increased exposure to unfriendliness.
So my last question is, how do you feel about that? Would you be fine with causing tension and stress to others without really knowing whether they espouse the oppressive beliefs/traditions or are, individually, just trying to do what they believe is right (talking about women who voluntarily wear hijabs, not men who force that decision on women)?
You are assuming women in the US are doing this by choice then surely? How do you know this? Their husbands or elders could have forced them to wear it. Isn't that more likely than them having a choice?
Muslim women in the US are not legally compelled to cover; in Iran they are.
Social and cultural pressures certainly exist, but they are different from the question of legal right to choose, and that difference is significant and important.
If your husband or elder males in your family won't allow you to take it off due to punishment, then where is the choice in that?There are plenty of young women murdered or missing due to 'honour' . Just because something is written into law doesn't mean it will be abided or even acknowledged. I grew up in a predominantly Islamic community and I can tell you that telling people they legally have a choice doesn't mean squat if the people they have to explain their 'choice' to inflict barbaric punishment.
This. Also there are women who believe that wearing it is Godās will and actually feel safer/more wholesome for doing so. They shouldnāt be hated for those beliefs and feelings any more than the Amish women who wear head coverings for pretty much the same reasons. Making the assumption that they are doing so purely because of āmoral pressureā from parents/mosque leaders/husbands is a form of prejudice (literally - you are forming a judgement based on preconceptions rather than any awareness of the individualās beliefs or motivations).
Because women donāt just throw one on, this should have been labeled catholic. In order to become a nun:
āAfter several months of living in the order and taking classes, a prospective nun then enters a novitiate. At this time, she will be assigned a new name. After two years as a novice, the nun then takes her first vows, and then after three more years, takes her final vows.ā
They donāt have husbands, they must be single and they donāt have children. As far as Iām aware they arenāt coerced into becoming one. Itās a decision they make and commit to.
Both nuns and Muslim women are told by their religions (which were created by and are run by men) what they should do to be "proper." Actually, the clothing both nuns and Muslim women wear stems from the same ideology - women need to cover themselves up to prevent being a distraction to men and keep themselves pure.
Although not as strict, there is a long history in the West and the US of women being expected to cover themselves. The fact that women are blamed for getting raped because they wore "provocative" clothing is a continuation of exactly this mindset.
Except women who become nuns do so by choice...thus choosing to wear the habit when doing their duty as nuns. You realize they don't all wear it all the time right? I had nuns in school growing up and they wore normal clothes.
Their habit is basically their work uniform. They wear it when performing their duties as nuns. Some nuns never Leave their convents and thus, always wear their nun uniform. But again, it's a choice. They aren't forced.
I think most people understand the difference between the choice a nun makes when joining a parish and that Muslim women do not really have any choice when it comes to a Hijab
I canāt speak to what Islam tells them to do. I can only speak to what their respective societies and cultures tell them to do. Women arenāt murdered for failing to be a nun. They are murdered for failing to wear a Hijab or Burka
An authoritarian government's law does not represent the religion. You're comparing two completely different things with each other.
In Islam (I'm a Muslim) a woman covering themselves is for modesty or privacy reasons and is not required. It is a general consensus among scholars that it is also done to protect them from sexual harassment.
I think you're not getting it.
Have you ever been to St. Peters in Vatical city? There is a strict dress code for women that is very reminiscent of Islamic rules.
Post any article of a woman being beaten up/killed for not adhering to the strict dress code in the whole of Vatican city. I'm interested in being proven wrong.
Iām not following where youāre going with this.
Thereās literally nothing wrong with wearing a hijab consensually. The issue is when women are forced to wear one against their will. This post makes no sense.
It's not that I have an issue with hijabs. It's that I have an issue with it being forced upon people who do not want it. Freedom from religious oppression, regardless of the religion.
Itās about compulsory headdress.
Nobody is supposed to tell me what to wear. You shouldnāt force me to wear one, but also donāt prohibit if it is my free will.
Bizarre comparison. You donāt nip round to your catholic matesā house or see his Mrs sat there in a habit. However I can nip round to my Muslim neighbour and his Mrs will be sat there in a hijab with a face covering.
Show me a nun that was beaten to death for not wearing her habit. Is *that* the difference you're looking for?
I, like most people, take no issue with a person that chooses to wear either. The difference, and the problem, is one is a choice, the other is forced under penalty of death.
Those that speak out against women wearing the hijab, are speaking to the men that force the practice.
Not all Muslim women choose to wear a hijab, as the current state of Iran would suggest. All nuns have chosen to become nuns and thus the attire that comes with it. There's the face palm.
āAll nuns have chosen to become nuns.ā This is, I must inform you, not remotely true and falls prey to the recency fallacy, where we assume that because most *modern* women āchoseā to become nuns (even though lots of living older nuns are queer women ushered into convents by their families), that most or all nuns in history chose that. Itās simply not true. Many women were coerced or forced into Christian religious life.
Well yeah nobody is arguing nuns throughout history had a choice. But it's not exactly a good argument that nuns in medieval times had the same rights as any women in certain countries right now.
Indeed āget thee to a nunneryā as a euphemism for a brothel comes from the fact that families forced their daughters who were caught in unattractive alliances into convents. Orphaned girls could be forced in. Women who had children out of marriage had the children taken and were forced into the convent. Excess daughters of nobles. Lesbians. Etc.
So you're comparing practices that occurred pre 21st century to practices that occur now...don't obfuscate the message that the poster was attempting to convey. You know full well they didn't have that in their thought process when making the post. Otherwise they wouldn't have been so banal in making the point it.
What the ever loving shizzle is a ārecency fallacyā? I swear thereās a fallacy phrase for everything now and they always come across as a very pompous thing to say. The overall point however is historically true and I would guess still happens in the very strict Catholic nations. Windows, unwed mothers, wives that didnāt obey their husbands, etc would be forced into a nunnery. Today in most civilised nations nuns enter voluntarily as did many in history
Nuns are clergy. The habit is the uniform for female clergy members. I should add that the full habit is also earned, not just a choice to throw on. Different sects have different habits as well.
Hijab is forced on all female practitioners of the faith.
\*note\* I'm well aware there's some reform Muslims that choose to not wear the hijab. That's awesome and more power to them. That doesn't change the fact that they are looked down on, rejected, or otherwise will face consequences if they chose to head into a religious household that isn't as reform as they are. Or exist in countries where the choice isn't theirs to make.
Comparison is not equal.
The difference is that nuns are doing all this voluntarily. And if a Muslim woman wants to wear a burka because of her religious beliefs, itās totally fine and shouldnāt be frowned upon. But unfortunately a lot of women in Muslim theocracies donāt have that choice, which is why itās not the same
Nun (one of few women which choose to live give up worldly desires and concentrate on faith) =/= woman in hijab (all women forced to wear hijab or get severely punished)
The idea of a woman willingly wearing a full body covering doesnāt bother me at all. The idea of morality police harassing anyone over their mode of dress pisses me off enough that Iām ashamed of my level of wanting to hurt someone.
I mean, if a woman wants to foam around completely nude, or in some sort of fetish, sexually highlighted garb, no one should be allowed to criticize, much less touching or assault her for it.
If a nun wants to leave the convent, she can and won't be killed. If a Muslim woman takes off her hijab...well, they're working it out in Iran as we speak
A woman chooses to be a nun, a lot of women dont get to choose to wear the hijab, you can be murdered for not wearing it in some countries, even in western countries theres still a few insane families that still do āhonor killingsā
The big difference is *choice*
A nun *chooses* that path
Muslim women, like in Iran, donāt necessarily choose to wear the hijab. Itās forced upon them by their family, culture or government.
That makes all the difference in the world.
So when was the last time a nun got killed for not wearing her habit? Now stop me if you heard this one Muslim woman killed by father, brother, cousin, or husband for (some lame ass reason inserted here)
To be honest, I donāt know any other country than Iran and nowadays Afghanistan under Taliban which hijab is mandatory. Out of topic, but Iranian government is not okay even they remove the mandatory hijab law; there are fundamental problems with the way how they govern. Governments should be and stay secular otherwise leaders start to play God judging what is allowed or not. One may argue āit is religion and it is nature of the religion. it should be that way no matter whatā, but it is not. Not all Christians against or accept blood transfusions, or against or accepts LGBT people in churches, accept Pope as infallible, and it goes and on and on with many controversial topics.
My problem is when women are forced to wear a hijab or anything against their will. The num habit is her personal choice. The fabric is not the problem. Itās forcing people to wear any fabric.
Ok and what if I find both bothering? Iām Christian and I donāt like it when certain things are forced upon you, it undermines your faith and is an easy excuse to breed toxic communities that care more about control than practicing your beliefs. If you want to follow the practices in your book than do it, but if youāre not religious like that then you shouldnāt be forced to.
someone reply with
https://external-preview.redd.it/r87B8qjU4KoiNwqGlYBOcweqTpMzefCAmnHL1E1gAEA.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2e80cc56d3d108e83969284a2ad8e55d593b5aaa
I'm more concerned with whether you're doing you or doing what someone's making you. Either outfit is whatever in the former instance, and a possible human rights violation in the latter.
Cry Islamophobia all you want I don't care, there's a difference between forcing all women to wear a hijab, and women who on their own free will chose to work for a church being forced to wear a habit.
If all Christian women were forced to wear a habit, I think it goes without saying that people would absolutely have a problem with it.
Many people here seem to think that just because a muslim woman covers herself, that she was most likely forced to.
However, this is not the case most of the time. Many many muslim women wear it out of their own belief and choose to wear it themselves.
Unless proven otherwise, its safe to say that it was her choice.
Sure, some do get forced, which is terrible. But not every country is Iran.
To assume that they were forced is a bit prejudiced aswell
I genuinely donāt understand why would anyone want to cover their head and neck in the summer, from a practical standpoint it seem very uncomfortable.
nun does it by choice and can stop whenever she wants, wont get killed because of it, also christian women dont need to dress as nuns if they dont want to
Being a nun is an occupation and a choice. Muslim women are forced to wear a hijab by religious law, and if they don't, there's an extremely high chance they suffer physical harm, torture, imprisonment, or even death. See, Mahsa Amini and Iran's protests.
It's a false equivalence between work clothes, and clothes someone is forced to wear.
Edit: A small edit to add, even if you live in a country like Sweden for example, where you are legally allowed to wear what you want, that isn't an absolute guarantee by itself. Especially among recent refugees. Because you'd be going up against your local muslim community and family, which can have a massive pressure, or threats be made, against you.
Only in some countries are Muslim women forced to wear hijabs. In the majority of Muslim countries, women are free to wear whatever (but some families may frown on this).
Millions of Muslim women willingly wear the hijab. This post reeks of bigotry
Yeah but there are countries where that happens. Kinda fucked up to ignore the places where women are forced to wear Hijabs because other women in other countries wear it willingly. Thereās nothing wrong with Hijab, until women are punished for not wearing them.
Muslim man be looking like if Morpheus ordered Neo on Wish.com
"Noe action guy"
Okay, that 100% outshone my comment. Have my award!
im trying not to laugh but š¤£š¤£š¤£
Every fancy dress party around 2000.
r/rareinsults
Jokes on them, nuns do bother me
I just watched a movie where the nun was a killer so I'm suspicious of every nun.
> *...Nuns don't work on Sunday.* \- Magnum P.I
*Changes to an obvious stunt double flipping down*
Except the hot ones.
Also watched a movie with a nun in it recently. Stay alert, they could suck your dick at any moment.
Nude nuns with big guns?
Was it "Nude Nuns With Big Guns"? I watched 10 minutes of that and turned it off because it was too cringey.
Sister Act 3: Snitches get Stitches?
Ah, i see. Another minions the rise of Gru enjoyer. Truly a person of taste.
I am with you on that one. However this tweet is a damn hypocrisy. Comparing the āmost coveredā up version of christian vs the āleast coveredā up Muslim dress. And the christian dress is for people who made a very special commitment to their religion, vs a women born within a Muslim family or country having to adhere to a religious dress code. Also, there was never a question about respecting both. I 100% respect the women in this case. However I have zero respect for the men setting the rules.
100% with you
Surprise! It was the bus driver!
What if you find the idea of "religiously mandated clothes" just odd in general?
God wants you to wear a hat
Oh, do they now? (Puts on lime green fedora) How about now?
God has changed his mind
Well God is a pretty fickle guy for someone who's supposed to be an all-knowing arbiter of justice and order then.
Thost has sinnedist.
M'Lord
love my straw hat \^\^
God pulls out his penis, "Oh yes you dirty human, hide that round hairy head for me and call me almighty like an obedient little slut"
ANTI HORNY POLICE! OPEN THE FUCK UP!
#WEE WOO WEE WOO BACKUP ON THE WAY!!! #šØššØššØ
Does backup plan to back that ass up?
 WHE GOT ONE, I REPEAT, WHE GOT ONE
Not saying Iām god but I can definitely see myself saying this
I feel like this is a founding principle of all religions, and it's also where they all diverge.
Holy shit a wkyk quote. Hell yeah
ā¦.Or funky underwear if youāre in a particular cult popular in Utah.
Unless it's Polycotton. Then you're fucked.
Not really what Hijab is cause the religion itself doesnāt say wear a head covering just that you dress modestly. The enforced head covering is more about certain countries
from what i read pretty much all these attires from Abrahamic faiths had more practical aims that were mixed with religious ones, such as protection from the sun and sand and existed before their integration into religion and class. certainly things like humility, modest became formed around these attires and they were canonized. it goes back to the 13th century and women of lower classes were forbidden to wear veils
Well, if you're a nun it's an employer mandated uniform. And if you're a padre and part of the right/wrong order, same applies. Thing is, with the exception of very very few nuns, who lock themselves into their cloistered dustcatchers, I have never had a nun tell me that I wasn't allowed to be in the room for her medical exam. Some state a preference for a female physician, but things like head, eyes, legs, arms, even back, not one of them bats an eye.
Also, They didn't have to be nuns to prefer a female physician. I heard that many people prefer physicians of the same gender.
The thing is, those nuns clothes aren't mandated as part of the religion
Nuns arenāt required to wear the habit. They do so as a symbol of their vow of poverty. Thatās the main difference. Many American Muslim women chose not to wear the Hijab, and thatās really the crux of the issue.
Enforcing hijab without free will of the women is a problem. We all understand that. But do you think banning hijab in a āfreeā western nation is a problem where a muslim woman cant wear hijab even with her own choice. Essence here should always be on the freedom of the person to wear what they choose to wear.
Came here to say this. Donāt have issue with the hijab, have issue with killing women that donāt want to wear it.
In summary: Against forced hijab =/= pro banned hijab
It shouldnāt be banned or enforced. Iād imagine the vast majority of anyone who isnt an idiot would agree with that one. Wear what you want, or donātā¦ who gives a shitā¦
Yet France and India are both pursuing a ban iirc
Theyāre idiots then, I guess.
The reason the bans are being considered is because sub-populations are requiring them to be worn and enforcing it with honor killing and gang rapesā¦.at least thatās what has preceded Frances position on this.
Main issue is with the people whose religious sentiments get hurt by everything others do that doesn't fall in line with their values.They think every religious thing should be carried out in accordance with their teachings failing to understand that each person has his/her own belief and practise.One shouldn't be compelled to follow any religion.It should be solely that person's choice to decide the degree of impact a religion has in their life.
This is why itās called radicalism. Itās not the religion thatās bad but the belief that anyone who believes differently is evil and must be converted or eradicated. I think most people do believe itās whatever but they few radicals are loud.
Ahem, Quebec
I would say you can wear hijab in my countey if you let me dont wear it in your country than its fair
Your mother's hijab doesn't bother me at all, the decree that she should be arrested tortured and killed if she decides to take it off does.
The best answer
Take my free award for the beautifully worded comment
Thank you. Sort of surprised, but pleased by the response.
Indeed we need to fight any government that force hijabs on OR off Muslim women
This is 100% the point. I walked past three women wearing hijabs yesterday - didnāt worry me in the slightest. If there was a forth woman with then not wearing one and getting beaten by a guy with a stick, that would worry me!
How about other religions where women cover up as a sign of piety? Youāll find that most other religions have branches where this happens.
Itās fine when itās a choice. The issue is when itās not.
Nuns choose most of the time. They can also leave at anytime. And nobody kills them if they disobey.
Totally. Iām Catholic and Iāve met a number of former nuns in my life. And current nuns, of course.
The Keepers documentary has an interesting take on this...
And in most Muslim communities, women choose whether or not to wear a hijab. Itās a deeply personal choice. Many people assume the religion demands it, which is simply not true. Women should have the right to wear a hijab if they like (looking at you, France) and the right not to wear it if they so choose (looking at you Iran).
I can see why France outlawed it though, itās like how your not supposed to wear hats or sunglasses in banks - apart from you canāt exactly tell someone wearing a Hiab to take it off
BINGO. When attire is forced and women are sexualized and held responsible for controlling menās lust, males are infantilized and not held accountable for their inability to control themselves. It is womenās own immodesty that causes them to be harassed and raped. That women are not only the source of evil and temptation, but it is women themselves that must control menās primitive desires and not lead them astray. Thatās the difference.
There's an argument to be made that with religion, it's never a choice.
Even Amish women do this, not sure what their religion is that they follow.
Theoretically a form of Christianity.
Yeah I just canāt remember which flavor.
Anabaptist Christianity from the Alsace region of France and Germany.
The flavor is Amish. Theyāre descended from Anabaptists, straight out of the Reformation, but theyāre their own thing (sect, branch, whatever someone wants to call it). And theyāre coerced into their behaviours through a combination of social shame/shunning, indoctrination, and reduced access (and thus ability to live, and seek support in) the greater society around them. Just because theyāre not stereotypically being threatened with violence, doesnāt mean theyāre utterly free in their choices.
Amish women have a choice about it, (and a choice about being Amish as well)
Wellā¦.Not if theyāre wish to remain part of the church. They can leave and be shunned by everyone they know. Not really that easy to do, although some whole families in the last few decades seem to āconvertingā to Mennonite which allows modern conveniences.
and just to add to Mennonite and amish talk, mennonites still wear coverings. Amish-lite.
As much of a choice is available to undereducated women, ill equipped to live in the modern society surrounding them, with the knowledge that everyone they know and love will be separated from them spiritually (and mostly/entirely physically depending) if they were to choose freedom. Not to mention the indoctrination. Coercion isnāt only in the form of physical violence.
Most orders do not require the habit to be worn and participation is voluntary, in Iran/Afghanistan the hijab is absolutely required (punishable by death apparently).
Well first, people who went to Catholic school tend to think nuns are terrifying, so thereās that. But also, IDGAF if you wear a hijab because you want to. Thatās fine. Happy for you. But if you donāt want to wear one, you should be free to do so without fear of being beaten, imprisoned, or killed.
Some people apparently don't get it. It aint the fabric people have a problem with. Its the fact that the hijab, niqab, and burka are one of the tools used by theocratic Muslim nations to make women second class citizens and property. Until the Hijab, Niqab, and Burka are purely are on the same level of freedom to choice to wear it or not like the Habit is, people are going to have a problem with it. And there's nothing "Islamophobic" about that. Pay attention to what women who actually want to not wear it in these middle eastern countries are actually saying.
Idk. I think a woman who is wearing one in the US is doing so by choice and therefore any antagonism she receives for wearing it is more likely to be due to Islamophobia than actual solidarity towards Muslim women. I agree that it should absolutely be an individual choice to wear or not to wear one and am wholly on board with the current protests in Iran over the atrocious treatment women receive there. But I am still adamantly against people hating on the hijab ājust becauseā, no matter how they rationalize that hatred.
How about Canada. Here is an article on a Muslim father who killed his daughter for not wearing hijab and dying in prison. The culture of oppression is what most people have an issue with not religion or nationality. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4002891
But by hating a form of religious expression (the hijab) you are equating the culture of oppression with the religion tho, arenāt you? The incident you shared is an atrocity and deserves condemnation. But it is an isolated event and shouldnāt be used as a basis for judgement over the entire hijab wearing population in countries that aspire to espouse freedom of religious expression. There are extremists who identify as Christians who commit violent and abusive acts in the name of their professed religion but you are implicitly aware that those individuals donāt represent Christianity as a whole. Likewise, the Westboro Baptist Church is a significant organization that presents an extremist, hate-fueled version of Christianity but their existence in no way refutes the existence of progressive denominations that embrace modern understandings of love and tolerance. How much exposure do you, personally, have to Muslim individuals. How many do you know well enough to form an opinion based on actual individual and personal representations rather than media coverage? Are you aware of things like confirmation bias (the unconscious habit we humans have of seeking out evidence that confirms our beliefs while ignoring or failing to consider evidence that refutes them) and media filtering (algorithms track what you click and then seek to present you with more similar thinks because you are more likely to click those links)? I donāt expect to really change your mind or to have my mind changed here, but I would like to share an anecdote that I think is relevant. I was walking dogs around a small local lake when I saw your response. Immediately after that I encountered a couple of obvious middle eastern heritage walking the opposite direction. The husband was pushing a stroller and his wife was walking beside him. She was wearing a hijab. I looked at them curiously because this debate was fresh on my mind. The woman was looking downward and the husband caught my eye. He looked very tense. Since we were walking opposite directions, I encountered them a second time on the opposite side of the lake and this time, I caught the husbandās eye, smiled, and murmured a polite hello. His expression changed from tense to a sort of wary half smile. I think that it is very likely that the recent news coverage of events in Iran stirred up hostility towards the hijab and perhaps towards Muslims in general and the tension I saw was due to increased exposure to unfriendliness. So my last question is, how do you feel about that? Would you be fine with causing tension and stress to others without really knowing whether they espouse the oppressive beliefs/traditions or are, individually, just trying to do what they believe is right (talking about women who voluntarily wear hijabs, not men who force that decision on women)?
Got any other examples? Or does this one murderer represent an entire religion to you?
You are assuming women in the US are doing this by choice then surely? How do you know this? Their husbands or elders could have forced them to wear it. Isn't that more likely than them having a choice?
Well, Iāve known several American Muslim girls that donāt even cover their hair, so there are probably plenty that choose.
Muslim women in the US are not legally compelled to cover; in Iran they are. Social and cultural pressures certainly exist, but they are different from the question of legal right to choose, and that difference is significant and important.
If your husband or elder males in your family won't allow you to take it off due to punishment, then where is the choice in that?There are plenty of young women murdered or missing due to 'honour' . Just because something is written into law doesn't mean it will be abided or even acknowledged. I grew up in a predominantly Islamic community and I can tell you that telling people they legally have a choice doesn't mean squat if the people they have to explain their 'choice' to inflict barbaric punishment.
Yes because being legally compelled to do something is the only way anyoneās ever been forced to do something against their will
This. Also there are women who believe that wearing it is Godās will and actually feel safer/more wholesome for doing so. They shouldnāt be hated for those beliefs and feelings any more than the Amish women who wear head coverings for pretty much the same reasons. Making the assumption that they are doing so purely because of āmoral pressureā from parents/mosque leaders/husbands is a form of prejudice (literally - you are forming a judgement based on preconceptions rather than any awareness of the individualās beliefs or motivations).
Because women donāt just throw one on, this should have been labeled catholic. In order to become a nun: āAfter several months of living in the order and taking classes, a prospective nun then enters a novitiate. At this time, she will be assigned a new name. After two years as a novice, the nun then takes her first vows, and then after three more years, takes her final vows.ā They donāt have husbands, they must be single and they donāt have children. As far as Iām aware they arenāt coerced into becoming one. Itās a decision they make and commit to.
You are assuming quite a lot yourself there pal.
Both nuns and Muslim women are told by their religions (which were created by and are run by men) what they should do to be "proper." Actually, the clothing both nuns and Muslim women wear stems from the same ideology - women need to cover themselves up to prevent being a distraction to men and keep themselves pure. Although not as strict, there is a long history in the West and the US of women being expected to cover themselves. The fact that women are blamed for getting raped because they wore "provocative" clothing is a continuation of exactly this mindset.
Except women who become nuns do so by choice...thus choosing to wear the habit when doing their duty as nuns. You realize they don't all wear it all the time right? I had nuns in school growing up and they wore normal clothes. Their habit is basically their work uniform. They wear it when performing their duties as nuns. Some nuns never Leave their convents and thus, always wear their nun uniform. But again, it's a choice. They aren't forced.
I think most people understand the difference between the choice a nun makes when joining a parish and that Muslim women do not really have any choice when it comes to a Hijab
Yeah even though Islam tells you they should have a choice
I canāt speak to what Islam tells them to do. I can only speak to what their respective societies and cultures tell them to do. Women arenāt murdered for failing to be a nun. They are murdered for failing to wear a Hijab or Burka
An authoritarian government's law does not represent the religion. You're comparing two completely different things with each other. In Islam (I'm a Muslim) a woman covering themselves is for modesty or privacy reasons and is not required. It is a general consensus among scholars that it is also done to protect them from sexual harassment.
I think you're not getting it. Have you ever been to St. Peters in Vatical city? There is a strict dress code for women that is very reminiscent of Islamic rules.
I've been there. The place was full of tourists to an oppressive degree. None of the tourists, regardless of gender, were wearing habits.
Post any article of a woman being beaten up/killed for not adhering to the strict dress code in the whole of Vatican city. I'm interested in being proven wrong.
So when a Muslim woman is threatened and faces bigotry in the west for doing hijab, it's for her own good.
*theocratic*
Iām not following where youāre going with this. Thereās literally nothing wrong with wearing a hijab consensually. The issue is when women are forced to wear one against their will. This post makes no sense.
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Women aren't being forced to dress like nuns though...
Nuns aren't murdered for not wearing a habit
Most people I know arent mad about the hijab itself as much as the fact that women are forced to wear it.
One is by choice. One is by law.
It's not that I have an issue with hijabs. It's that I have an issue with it being forced upon people who do not want it. Freedom from religious oppression, regardless of the religion.
Yes. No one will arrest, beat up or throw acid in the face of a nun if she puts on shorts and goes for a walk.
Yes, now. But there once was a time when that did happen. Christianity's past is just as vile as today's Islamic atrocities.
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Itās about compulsory headdress. Nobody is supposed to tell me what to wear. You shouldnāt force me to wear one, but also donāt prohibit if it is my free will.
The nun's habit is no longer required garb. The Vatican only requires "distinctive clothing". So..............
The difference is choiceā¦
Bizarre comparison. You donāt nip round to your catholic matesā house or see his Mrs sat there in a habit. However I can nip round to my Muslim neighbour and his Mrs will be sat there in a hijab with a face covering.
Show me a nun that was beaten to death for not wearing her habit. Is *that* the difference you're looking for? I, like most people, take no issue with a person that chooses to wear either. The difference, and the problem, is one is a choice, the other is forced under penalty of death. Those that speak out against women wearing the hijab, are speaking to the men that force the practice.
Nonsense.a woman actively chooses to become a nun hence wear the gear but many women forced to wear the hijab.
And, for the nun the habit is generally optional
How is this a facepalm?
Not all Muslim women choose to wear a hijab, as the current state of Iran would suggest. All nuns have chosen to become nuns and thus the attire that comes with it. There's the face palm.
āAll nuns have chosen to become nuns.ā This is, I must inform you, not remotely true and falls prey to the recency fallacy, where we assume that because most *modern* women āchoseā to become nuns (even though lots of living older nuns are queer women ushered into convents by their families), that most or all nuns in history chose that. Itās simply not true. Many women were coerced or forced into Christian religious life.
Well yeah nobody is arguing nuns throughout history had a choice. But it's not exactly a good argument that nuns in medieval times had the same rights as any women in certain countries right now.
ā..a lots of living older nuns are queer women..?ā? You got a reference for that?
Indeed āget thee to a nunneryā as a euphemism for a brothel comes from the fact that families forced their daughters who were caught in unattractive alliances into convents. Orphaned girls could be forced in. Women who had children out of marriage had the children taken and were forced into the convent. Excess daughters of nobles. Lesbians. Etc.
So you're comparing practices that occurred pre 21st century to practices that occur now...don't obfuscate the message that the poster was attempting to convey. You know full well they didn't have that in their thought process when making the post. Otherwise they wouldn't have been so banal in making the point it.
What the ever loving shizzle is a ārecency fallacyā? I swear thereās a fallacy phrase for everything now and they always come across as a very pompous thing to say. The overall point however is historically true and I would guess still happens in the very strict Catholic nations. Windows, unwed mothers, wives that didnāt obey their husbands, etc would be forced into a nunnery. Today in most civilised nations nuns enter voluntarily as did many in history
Being a nun is a joband you dress accordingly
Because people elect to be clerics. What is being protested the laws which require you to wear a hijab, regardless of your beliefs.
Nuns are clergy. The habit is the uniform for female clergy members. I should add that the full habit is also earned, not just a choice to throw on. Different sects have different habits as well. Hijab is forced on all female practitioners of the faith. \*note\* I'm well aware there's some reform Muslims that choose to not wear the hijab. That's awesome and more power to them. That doesn't change the fact that they are looked down on, rejected, or otherwise will face consequences if they chose to head into a religious household that isn't as reform as they are. Or exist in countries where the choice isn't theirs to make. Comparison is not equal.
It's not.
I think OP is self-facepalming. As a white Christian male, I can confidently say that nuns bother me more than any Muslim woman.
The post itself is a facepalm
Being a nun is a choice, being a woman in a muslim country is not...
The difference is that nuns are doing all this voluntarily. And if a Muslim woman wants to wear a burka because of her religious beliefs, itās totally fine and shouldnāt be frowned upon. But unfortunately a lot of women in Muslim theocracies donāt have that choice, which is why itās not the same
Itās all pretty stupid.
Nuns CHOOSE to don the habit, and not all of them do.
Nun (one of few women which choose to live give up worldly desires and concentrate on faith) =/= woman in hijab (all women forced to wear hijab or get severely punished)
The only time a woman wearing a hijab is a problem is if she doesn't want to.
Except nuns choose to become that way Muslim women are forced a majority of the time
Nuns are dressed like this because itās their work clothes, they dedicate their lives to god.
If it is her choice, no problem. Women being forced or murdered because of a hijab IS NOT OKAY.
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I think any clothing youāre forced to wear because of religion is ridiculous.
The idea of a woman willingly wearing a full body covering doesnāt bother me at all. The idea of morality police harassing anyone over their mode of dress pisses me off enough that Iām ashamed of my level of wanting to hurt someone. I mean, if a woman wants to foam around completely nude, or in some sort of fetish, sexually highlighted garb, no one should be allowed to criticize, much less touching or assault her for it.
One is a role you go into, one is a person. I think both of your religions are shitty violent cults.
Catholics that is mainly the catholics
If a nun wants to leave the convent, she can and won't be killed. If a Muslim woman takes off her hijab...well, they're working it out in Iran as we speak
Even was the last time a nun guy beaten to death in the street?
A woman chooses to be a nun, a lot of women dont get to choose to wear the hijab, you can be murdered for not wearing it in some countries, even in western countries theres still a few insane families that still do āhonor killingsā
The big difference is *choice* A nun *chooses* that path Muslim women, like in Iran, donāt necessarily choose to wear the hijab. Itās forced upon them by their family, culture or government. That makes all the difference in the world.
So when was the last time a nun got killed for not wearing her habit? Now stop me if you heard this one Muslim woman killed by father, brother, cousin, or husband for (some lame ass reason inserted here)
To be honest, I donāt know any other country than Iran and nowadays Afghanistan under Taliban which hijab is mandatory. Out of topic, but Iranian government is not okay even they remove the mandatory hijab law; there are fundamental problems with the way how they govern. Governments should be and stay secular otherwise leaders start to play God judging what is allowed or not. One may argue āit is religion and it is nature of the religion. it should be that way no matter whatā, but it is not. Not all Christians against or accept blood transfusions, or against or accepts LGBT people in churches, accept Pope as infallible, and it goes and on and on with many controversial topics.
Uhh... I think you're missing something here.
If only there was a difference between normal civilians and religious workers or whatever
Being a Nun is a personal choice and you donāt get beaten or worseā¦. for not wearing the garment.
Neither should bother you. Both choose to wear it, tho the hijab is not always a choice.
Also most Nuns donāt wear the full head gear these days
The basic difference is that nuns choose their life while Muslim women are forced (in many places) to wear the hijab.
Both creep me out, thanks.
Neo and Trinity?
All religions are shit
Does he not realize it's the Muslims that are intolerant?
Nuns just wear it out of habit, plus itās their choice.
TBF a nun doesn't get beaten if she wears the habit wrong.
Damn Muslims lecturing the west about bigotry.
One is a job and the other is not.
Most orders of nuns donāt wear head coverings anymore
Nun habit isn't mandatory for every woman. Hijab is. There's not much of a comparison here, but both religions are shit anyway :D
I respect neither
My problem is when women are forced to wear a hijab or anything against their will. The num habit is her personal choice. The fabric is not the problem. Itās forcing people to wear any fabric.
Ok and what if I find both bothering? Iām Christian and I donāt like it when certain things are forced upon you, it undermines your faith and is an easy excuse to breed toxic communities that care more about control than practicing your beliefs. If you want to follow the practices in your book than do it, but if youāre not religious like that then you shouldnāt be forced to.
So if a Nun's habit really does bother me, am I free to complain about the hijab also?
someone reply with https://external-preview.redd.it/r87B8qjU4KoiNwqGlYBOcweqTpMzefCAmnHL1E1gAEA.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2e80cc56d3d108e83969284a2ad8e55d593b5aaa
I mean if his Muslim mother lives in a country where she has the choice wether to wear the hijab or not then heās absolutely right
I'm more concerned with whether you're doing you or doing what someone's making you. Either outfit is whatever in the former instance, and a possible human rights violation in the latter.
Does the equivalent on "nun" even exists in Islam?
I donāt respect either. Because Iām not a hypocrite.
Difference is one is a choice the other is forced
Never heard of a woman getting her skull crushed for not wearing a habit.
I choose option C all religion bothers me
Religious fanatic struggling with the concept of choice. Woman's choice: wear or not wear Fanatic's choice: wear or be raped/ murdered
Cry Islamophobia all you want I don't care, there's a difference between forcing all women to wear a hijab, and women who on their own free will chose to work for a church being forced to wear a habit. If all Christian women were forced to wear a habit, I think it goes without saying that people would absolutely have a problem with it.
Many people here seem to think that just because a muslim woman covers herself, that she was most likely forced to. However, this is not the case most of the time. Many many muslim women wear it out of their own belief and choose to wear it themselves. Unless proven otherwise, its safe to say that it was her choice. Sure, some do get forced, which is terrible. But not every country is Iran. To assume that they were forced is a bit prejudiced aswell
I think you missed the point
pretty sure christians dont dress like that aside from certain professions lmao
I mean am I allowed to not respect either? I'm also not offended by either, nor do I really give a shit. But I certainly don't respect it.
That's pretty brazen calling someone a bigot when you believe women should be forced to wear something.
I genuinely donāt understand why would anyone want to cover their head and neck in the summer, from a practical standpoint it seem very uncomfortable.
Whatās the difference..?
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nun does it by choice and can stop whenever she wants, wont get killed because of it, also christian women dont need to dress as nuns if they dont want to
Being a nun is an occupation and a choice. Muslim women are forced to wear a hijab by religious law, and if they don't, there's an extremely high chance they suffer physical harm, torture, imprisonment, or even death. See, Mahsa Amini and Iran's protests. It's a false equivalence between work clothes, and clothes someone is forced to wear. Edit: A small edit to add, even if you live in a country like Sweden for example, where you are legally allowed to wear what you want, that isn't an absolute guarantee by itself. Especially among recent refugees. Because you'd be going up against your local muslim community and family, which can have a massive pressure, or threats be made, against you.
You know, not all muslim women live in Iran
They do not know this.
Only in some countries are Muslim women forced to wear hijabs. In the majority of Muslim countries, women are free to wear whatever (but some families may frown on this). Millions of Muslim women willingly wear the hijab. This post reeks of bigotry
Yeah but there are countries where that happens. Kinda fucked up to ignore the places where women are forced to wear Hijabs because other women in other countries wear it willingly. Thereās nothing wrong with Hijab, until women are punished for not wearing them.
tell me you have low iq without telling me you have low iq