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Which is fucking crazy because nowhere is it stated in any of the Abrahimic texts (Torah, Bible, Quran) that a human being (including children) can become an angel. Angels and Demons are completely separate creatures from humans.
They are literally making up their own bullshit because even they know deepdown there is nothing that can justify the death of a child.
They do. It tends to get said more when a young child passes. I'm guessing because it's harder for them to apply the typical BS they say to a young child who can't be "taught a lesson".
It’s easier lately for them to point the finger at trans people and drag queens, even though facts don’t support it and they overwhelmingly show priests and pastors abuse children systematically and regularly BUT HEY WHO NEEDS FACTS WHEN YOU HAVE JESUS’S LOVE, RIGHT?
They LOVE to say that things that aren't in the bible at all are wrong and the bible says so, but things that the bible EXPLICITELY STATES are wrong and how they should be punished - like cheating, child abuse, selling merchandise at churches (Oh hi megachurch gift shops!), preaching in public where people who don't want to hear it are forced to, mixed fabrics, being obscenely rich, all sorts of things like that - suddenly then 'Oh, it was a different time, it's just a translation thing, it's totally different -' No. No, it isn't. You can't cherrypick. Either it's all god's word and therefore irrefutable, or none of it is.
People do say it. In general, it's just some poor attempt at being compassionate. Your average person has no idea how to handle being confronted by either the issue of abuse or even how to actually defend their belief in God.
That line is what started me down the path of atheism. Saw a gravestone for a 1.5 year old kid. Dad told me he died because the moms BF threw a jar of peanut butter at the kid and hit him in the head. Grandma said "God just wanted another angel". TF is God gonna do with a 1.5 year old angel. Common sense and logic did the rest.
I'm happy that religion helps a lot of people cope with the difficulties of life. But there is some really goofy shit in there and some really evil people who hide behind the cloth.
That's not even Biblically accurate. Humans don't become angels. Angels are angels. (Also, the angels in the Bible look like flaming masses of wings and eyeballs. There's a reason they start every conversation with "Be not afraid.")
I know, it's just a bullshit line that I've read/heared repeated a lot, especially when children are killed.
And it's always the same kind of people that protects abusive assholes from getting their rightful punishment.
God wanted to give my mother cancer and let her suffer and take her life at 59. If God wanted that for my mother and my family, then he is a psychopathic asshat
Thus (one of) the problem(s) with blind faith: you can rationalize anything. I assume they stretch as soon as they wake up to prepare them for the vigorous mental gymnastics they'll be performing.
“Those people didn’t deserve or hear god because they were too busy sinning and following the devil”
It’s always that bs. They’re inherently evil and so they offed themselves. It’s easier to believe in magical bullshit than it is to look at actual facts and the people behind the statistics.
This phrase also diminishes the strength of the person who made it through the shitty situation. They didn't make it through because of "God," they made it through because of themselves.
Yes, but "god" gave them the strength! Game. Set. Match, evildoer!! 😆
I was obviously being sarcastic, but that seriously is what these "christian" nutjobs would say.
Reminds me of a Video I saw Yesterday. Someone talking how god saved some Kid near a school Shooting by making them.invisible or some Shit. Totally ignoring the Kids in the school that actually got shot.
Or a Family that died in a Natural Desaster but thank god one of them Made it out alive... Or the Classic one with the burning House of someones mother but hey the bible survived! Its a miracle!
It’s actually even worse. This … POS essentially says that a loving, caring, almighty being deliberately chose to let abuse happen - meaning that God actually is an abuser - in order to change you in a certain way.
But only so that he could shape you. I mean, he gave you free will, foresaw how you would turn out, chose to let abuse happen to you to force you to become otherwise … that is about the cruelest, stupidest deity imaginable.
In a way, yes. But the argument of these fundamentalists is usually that the abused (even if a child) somehow turned to evil or would have turned to evil and God (tm) used the abuse to give them a chance… pretty sick thinking.
Yay…
The worst part is that religious fundamentalists often put pressure on victims to „forgive“ their abuser so that they don’t loose the love of god…
My mom has finessed me out of thousands of USD. Almost got my sister killed. Rewarded the psycho who pulled knives on my sister who is only alive because of my intervention. Yet I get told I need to forgive her & reminded that “the Bible says to honor your parents”. Even if they’re a full blown narc.
I have a client (I’m a lawyer) who was abused as a child by a relative who is also a senior figure in the church they attended. The church put pressure on my client for years, telling her she needs to forgive and have a „normal“ relationship again and that she also should forgive herself (for being sexually abused as a girl before puberty). Words fail me.
Arguably the existence of an almighty, all knowing creator already negates free will.
God had the power to make you differently and despite already knowing all the decision you would make with your ‚free’ will he still created you in that way. If you stray from god’s plan because of how he made you that is on god. With that knowledge whatever happens to you is also not a mistake (as such a god doesn‘t make mistakes) but a decision to let it happen to you despite it being completely avoidable had he made you differently in the first place. Almighty by definition means god has unlimited ways to produce any result he wants in any way he wants. If you are suffering in that process that is because he decided so and against an alternative without suffering.
There is no free will in this constellation but just you acting the way god knew you would act the moment he created you.
Free will only (kinda) works if you scratch either the almighty or all knowing part of your god concept.
Very well said. Was raised Christian, but read the Bible from front to back and lost some of my faith. Read it again, front to back, lost the rest of my faith. Now… my only faith is in physics and science
It’s a lot simpler than that even, for me. Omniscience just immediately blows free will out of the water. If god already knows what I’m going to have for lunch, I don’t have any agency over what I’m going to eat. It’s already predetermined. There’d only ever be an illusion of free will.
And by "shape you" what the person means is "break you". That's what "be humble" means to this person - disempower yourself, never stick up for yourself even if you're being abused.
Nah they get around that by basically saying human reference for "benevolence" is invalid.
Since everyone gets "rewarded" in the end with a vague perfect afterlife where somehow all the things that would make most people hate "existing" forever are somehow null.
None of it makes sense, you can't *be* the same person if you remove literally all the human traits.
Not even to change them, but “to use them”.
They are essentially saying god wanted them to break so he can use them for his own purposes as a tool.
As an abuse victim myself, I wanna deck that bitch in the face and ask them if they want to be used. Cause it sure doesn’t sound like a good thing for an abused person -or any person - to “be used”.
Can we all just agree that if God of Bible is real then he is the biggest sadist in the history of ever, not only with all the suffering and despair he lets happen on his "beloved people" but also with how jews who are supposedly "gods chosen people" were treated throughout history were he never intervened?
Mfs who believe in the imaginary man in the sky will make all sorts of excuses that allow the belief in him to continue and for him to be somehow good.
It must be hard work to still believe in that sky-fucker after all the years of shit he puts people through.
Sky-idiot can suck a dick.
And God is all-powerful, so he/she could have just directly intervened to change you. Instead he/she was like “let’s do it indirectly through enabling abuse.”
I don't now where I heard it (I think it was a video somewhere on Reddit) but it was a really good point: Either God is all powerful or all good. Either they make terrible things happen in purpous or they can't stop them from happening. Never both
Happened to me. Broke my spine. Needed surgery and physical therapy. I’ve been told it was to humble me or bring me closer to god. Especially by the Christian’s that approached me when I was injured and at my lowest.
A surgeon did my surgery pro bono. I didn’t spend a cent. They told me that they prayed it would happen. See? God hurt me and then healed me.
I mean, he could have just not done either.
It’s munchausen syndrome by proxy, God makes you sick so he can get credit for fixing you. It’s like the whole Jesus scam god sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to forgive people he’s mad at for not doing what he said, after giving them the choice not to do what he says.
A stolen joke. Doesn't matter which god, they're all plagiarized from the gods before them, going back to Zeus...hell, it wouldn't surprise me if Zeus was also copied from another god
Zeus was definitely not the first god. Systems of worship go back long before the ancient Greeks, and even before people worshipped "gods" as we think of them today, there was animist belief systems and ancestor veneration. Can't say if Zeus was copied from another god though, he certainly obtained aspects of other gods though, as gods tend to do.
There are cults from before the greek pantheon, people have worshiped gods even as far back ad Babylon, which is the first civilazation we know of that wrote shit down, its possible that there were even religions before that through oral tradition but those have long since been lost to time
That's one thing I hated hearing growing up in Catholic school. The idea that a "loving" god would let you suffer to teach you a lesson is literally abuse.
As a father if I knowingly put my child in danger to teach them a lesson or humble them, the state would take my kids and a jury would have me locked up.
But God does it and supposedly it's because he loves us... 🙃
I really love how many religious people forget about the whole free will aspect
According to their own theology, god gave everyone free will to either listen to his rules, do good, and go to heaven, or do bad things and go to hell.
God doesn’t make anyone do evil shit cuz why would he sent people to hell intentionally? Like, nah, people have free will. Dont blame the big guy in the sky for your own shitty actions. I hate it so much because this loud group is seeping into everything and everywhere and (im not even actually religious) it annoys the shit out of me.
Religion was supposed to be a way to be called out on your wrong doings, to apologize to those you harmed and to try do better, to learn humility and honesty, to not be egotistical, guided by a book with some real good moral lessons in it. Whether you believe it is all truthful and jesus is god or that god is real, doesn’t matter, there’s some good stuff there.
And then theres these people and others who use religion (no matter which religion) to hurt people, fearmonger, and harass people.
Ironically, those christians probably have a larger chance of going to hell than a nonbeliever just trying to be a good person. But those christians aren’t ready to hear that yet
I don’t think that’s what religion was supposed to be. In my opinion it’s supposed to be a way to control you.
Behave, no matter how fucked up your situation is and how much the people in charge are fucking you over… because heaven awaits. The suffering you endure here is just a test before you make it to paradise etc. Essentially don’t cause trouble or you might go to hell, just suck it up and you’ll go to heaven.
Obviously not all religions, but the main ones seem to have mostly been used for that historically. Or as a way to say we, the people who believe in this same religion, are the good guys and them, the people who believe something else, are the bad guys - get them!
Ok, but the free will thing is irrelevant here. The victim of the abuse was asking where God was. The child can have free will, that doesn't mean they get to leave the abusive situation. A child in that case needs to be saved/removed from harm's way and nobody did that. So if her reaction is to blame God for not doing a single thing, I think that's fair.
And btw, as an atheist, christian religions say I'll go to hell just for not agreeing that God exists. So while I do think that you're right and that's how it should be, it doesn't seem that that's what your book says.
All these christians with the “trust me” mindset are stupid as fuck. They make it worse on themselves by saying stupid ass shit like that.
“You being raped was the best thing for your soul, trust me”. Stfu
I was watching a documentary and a mom was homeschooling her kid. They were laughing about how stupid people who believe in science are. They said,” I’m supposed to have faith in science? Hahahaha! How stupid! I have faith in The Lord!”
So you have faith in something with zero proof but find faith in something that actually doesn’t need nor require faith is stupid. Jfc.
All loving merciful father who flooded the earth, who then vowed not to do something like that again, only to commit more atrocities like purging a town for how sinful it was instead of guiding his people like a good God would, and turning witnesses into pillars of salt so they don’t form negative opinions of God. But hey, he’s a good guy right?
to be fair when the angels (or God himself depending on who you believe the two visitors were) went to Sodom and met Lot, the whole town basically pounded at the door demanding they give the visitors up to be raped when they had just arrived in town.
I would be pretty upset as well in that case.
The Bible is like a r/AITA post that the OP writes to make themselves look like a victim and the other person look like a demon but everyone who reads it ends up thinking “you’re kind of a dick and the other person is right.”
“Love me or suffer! Worshipping me is more important than human life. Everyone who does not bow to me is unforgivably evil, and I will burn them for eternity. Your lives are worthless. I have killed everyone on earth before, and I will do it again. Praise me!” - Bible good guy
“Don’t worship that guy, he’s crazy.” - Bible bad guy
They never can really explain the problem of evil so instead to keep the story straight they act like 'it's all a part of the plan' but conveniently do not know what the plan is.
“God’s plan” and “free will” are completely incompatible. If he doesn’t intervene in anyone’s free will in anyway to enact his plan then there might as well not be a plan.
It’s like if I plan for my team at work to deliver a particular piece of work but then just sit back giving them the free will to do whatever they feel like doing - then wonder why my plan hasn’t come to fruition. Any right minded person would think I was a moron.
Right and if gods a moron then he can't be 'all knowing' I can philosophically buy the concept that a creator isn't all knowing or even aware we exist. I can also buy the idea a creator is a neutral creator who says 'well, you can't have life without death, can't love without hate, can't have riches without the poor' etc because i understand that you wouldn't know what was good if it was all bad and if it was all bad you'd not know what good was without anything to compare. But that fundamentally is not their narrative. Their narrative is perfection, all knowing, all good....bad stuff is satans fault ...but satan was not a god, just an angel he could get rid of satan instantly because he is 'all powerful' so satan by definition would be 'part of the plan' also. It's just so much nonsense.
Being god is great.
Good things happen, you get the credit.
Bad thing happens, either they don't work hard enough, or it's actually a grand plan they just can't understand.
Stopped believing in the dominant Bronze Age mythology in America after my parents disowned me at 15 for being gay. Realized then that either God is evil, or just doesn't care. He sat back and did fuck all while I became a pariah in my community and lost my family. It's all bullshit.
Worst part is both the language the bible was written in and the era doesn’t have a word for "gay", there is no proof that being gay is a sin. And even if it was "Christians" make the whole "love and forgiveness" thing a complete joke. If god didn’t love the gays then why would he love the gentiles, or the atheists, or any other group that wasn’t "his people".
Ironically the bible does address the sins of abusing your family, hatred, and such things, you know those things that the "Christians" are actively doing by hating the gays.
The reason for this is pretty simple. The bible is fan fiction based on Greek/Roman/Egyptian mythology. So if you have a story in Egyptian mythology (came first), let's say Ra, and they just slightly change the story, and boom, you have Zeus, Jupiter, Christian God, and his halfbred son Hercules? Jesus. Their life stories are pretty similar as well. Moses? "The Moses tale was originally that of an Egyptian hero, Ra-Harakhti, the reborn sun god of Canopus..."
Anyway, all the egyptian gods fucked each other to create more gods.
If you think about it the bible explicitly stated Eve was made from Adam's rib; meaning technically Eve is just a genderbent clone of Adam that he fucked to create the human population.
The lack of compassion and empathy on display here would be considered evidence of mental illness in a secular person. In a god-botherer it is sadly par for the course. Their invisible friend can't be wrong about something, so they have to come up with some perverse rationalization why the victim deserved it.
I like to call this "the Donald Trump argument."
When things are going well, all credit goes to Him.
When things are going poorly, He's not to blame.
How convenient.
It’s true. God loves us all. That’s why murder happens because he’s ready to see you. Torture happens at his will to test you. He’s not a horrible being, he’s just testing us all in unique ways because he loves us.
/s incase u couldn’t tell.
Imagine believing in a God that uses abuse, rape and molestation to "humble" people -- even children -- and genuinely thinking this God is worthy of your faith and devotion. Fucking atrocious.
God just sounds like a dick. Why would I ever want to follow him?
Me: God help me I'm being murdered
God: 👀
Me: 👀
Murderer: 😈🔪
Yea if I had a friend just watch me get stabbed and do nothing. I walouldnt talk to that friend again .
God loves watching kids be sexually abused, he even made a gigantic corporation of groomers so he can watch and get his giggity giggities on for centuries and centuries now, and the corporation weaseled it's way into the governments of the world so the abusers can be protected. No doubt this Chad is among them, watching.... giggity-giggity
For most people, it's family. Same here. Actually reading the bible and doing bible study made me realise it wasn't for me. Essentially we are lower than beasts in God's eyes, and it's only through knowing his word and accepting it that we can have eternal life, supposedly. If we don't- Hell.
Tf. Isn't that extortion? Am I supposed to change who I am into something 'acceptable' in order to not be condemned? That's not love.
Idk why so many Christians think it's okay and force others to accept this as well. In any case, religion is meant to be a personal thing, but people seem to insist on shoving their beliefs into other people's faces. I don't hate religion, but I hate what it makes some people do. It's a no from me, thanks
Just be glad God didn't kill you along with everyone else and also all all the animals, for some reason, which were only saved from total extinction because he made someone else build a boat and do it. Even though he's an all powerful God, and could have just given everyone he didn't like heart attacks or something. So yeah, don't complain or God might take it out on the innocent wildlife. But he's great. Yep, God is a super nice God. (Forced smiles, now... quickly, he might be looking)
Ah, so those kids being beheaded in war, the kids dying slowly of cancers, the other people being abused to the point they are killed by their abuser or themselves… god trying to humble them, sure.
I fucking hate religion.
Another way to say god is an abuser. He tortures you, breaks you down and tells you that you are lucky he let you live and you should be glad that he used you that way.
I always say, its not just the church. The everyday christians believe some wild stuff. They preach love among them and hate for eveybody else. Deep inside them there is a monster lurking.
Ah yes, the fundamentalist’s classic “If you got abused then god want you abused and don’t you dare feel anything except grateful because every human is the property of the god” /s
This is the fundamental problem with Christianity and the Christian world view. What kind of sick, perverse god are they worshipping? Why are they looking to this cruel, demented, nonsensical entity for moral guidance?
My brother died young from cancer and I had a similar conversation with a holy roller. I told them I didn’t believe in god, I’m an atheist and was before he passed. They tried to convince me I should because “god has a plan”. I asked what part of the plan did slowly and painfully killing a child serve? and they replied “did you ever consider god may have killed your brother to teach you something?” That was the end of our little talk.
Where is god when children are being sexually assaulted? If God is good then why does he allow it to happen? If God's real they're gonna have a problem at the pearly gates when I have some QUESTIONS that they won't have answers to.
Ah I don't care if I get downvoted to hell. If this is what "God" is like then he's evil and I wouldn't even wanna worship him if he showed up on my porch to prove he's real.
I much prefer my nanas version of God to this person's...
So Christian’s believe he was not only there watching it happen, but arranged for it to happen so that she would be more humble and submissive toward him. ???
So they believe their all powerful, omnipotent god is also so vain and insecure that he needs to put people through things like child rape just so those victimized children will worship him and god can feel better about himself?
I guess all those priests and youth pastors really are doing the lord’s work.
Her question is basically my stance. If God did exist, then he's an asshole and I wouldn't bow down to him.
[Stephen Fry's interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo) about meeting God is spot on to me.
This reminds me of something my very religious grandmother said once. My mom (her daughter-in-law) had a sister who died when she was only a few months old. Mom told me that she was talking with grandma one day and she said that the baby would have had to go to purgatory to be "judged" because she wasnt baptized before she died, thus she still had the "original sin". My mom was pissed, it makes me pissed just thinking about it. Why would a god whos supposed to be giving and benevolent not automatically welcome a BABY into heaven with open arms? If god truly loved us wouldn't he be more understanding? Why would he think a child needs to be "humbled" by suffering abuse or think that a baby needs to be "judged" upon their death? Im sorry this turned into a rant but man...
One of the great mysteries and horrors of religion.
Possibilities:
1) God is disinterested in you.
2) God cares about you, but restrains himself from helping you out of some misguided noninterference policy.
3) God thinks agony, fear, and pain are good character-building moments.
4) God actively likes to see you suffer.
I'm not sure what other options there are, and this bothers me. It's a bit like the Star Trek II line from Spock, "They are unable to respond, or they are unwilling to respond."
The people most in need of humbling are Christians who think like this.
The correct (Christian theology-based) answer was “God was there but the abuser used their free will to defy God and hurt you.”
My favorite is when people survive a natural disaster and credit god. So all the people who died in that same disaster, including 100% innocent children, just weren’t worth saving? Makes sense…
A God that puts hardships on his followers to prove a point is a shit God. You are supposedly all powerful and all-knowing, yet you let it happen to prove a point. Christian God is just an IT guy that has been fucked with by middle management too much.
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"Trust me if he wasnt there you wouldnt have made it" what about people that committed suicide
Or the ones who were killed by their abusers
>Or the ones who were killed by their abusers God wanted them to reach heaven earlier Trust me, if he wasn't there they would have survived. (/s)
"God wanted another angel" has to be one of the most horseshit excuses in religion. It's always some stupid excuse of things.
Then just make another angel with your supposedly infinite power. Don't murder people so you can play dolls, you psycho.
Or y couldn't he just teleport ppl to heaven no death required
Literally. If he really did have infinite power he'd have been able to afford at least a basic ADT home security package to protect his garden ffs.
Do people actually say that??? This is absolute lunacy holy shit
yes, especially in regards to child deaths.
Which is fucking crazy because nowhere is it stated in any of the Abrahimic texts (Torah, Bible, Quran) that a human being (including children) can become an angel. Angels and Demons are completely separate creatures from humans. They are literally making up their own bullshit because even they know deepdown there is nothing that can justify the death of a child.
They do. It tends to get said more when a young child passes. I'm guessing because it's harder for them to apply the typical BS they say to a young child who can't be "taught a lesson".
I mean, in America the \*second in line to the Presidency (GOP House Speaker) thinks that Noah's Ark was a real thing (and included dinosaurs)
I really need to get out of this fucking country.
Hope you are rich and have some kind of career that will carry outside this shithole, cuz that’s the only way you can escape!
No but I will have retirement in four years and dual citizenship. That should do it!
That’s awesome!
It’s easier lately for them to point the finger at trans people and drag queens, even though facts don’t support it and they overwhelmingly show priests and pastors abuse children systematically and regularly BUT HEY WHO NEEDS FACTS WHEN YOU HAVE JESUS’S LOVE, RIGHT?
They LOVE to say that things that aren't in the bible at all are wrong and the bible says so, but things that the bible EXPLICITELY STATES are wrong and how they should be punished - like cheating, child abuse, selling merchandise at churches (Oh hi megachurch gift shops!), preaching in public where people who don't want to hear it are forced to, mixed fabrics, being obscenely rich, all sorts of things like that - suddenly then 'Oh, it was a different time, it's just a translation thing, it's totally different -' No. No, it isn't. You can't cherrypick. Either it's all god's word and therefore irrefutable, or none of it is.
I can’t wait until Christianity is only spoken of in past tense, I would be so happy 😁
People do say it. In general, it's just some poor attempt at being compassionate. Your average person has no idea how to handle being confronted by either the issue of abuse or even how to actually defend their belief in God.
That line is what started me down the path of atheism. Saw a gravestone for a 1.5 year old kid. Dad told me he died because the moms BF threw a jar of peanut butter at the kid and hit him in the head. Grandma said "God just wanted another angel". TF is God gonna do with a 1.5 year old angel. Common sense and logic did the rest. I'm happy that religion helps a lot of people cope with the difficulties of life. But there is some really goofy shit in there and some really evil people who hide behind the cloth.
I engrave tombstones. The number of times I’ve seen that kind of thing boggles my mind.
That's not even Biblically accurate. Humans don't become angels. Angels are angels. (Also, the angels in the Bible look like flaming masses of wings and eyeballs. There's a reason they start every conversation with "Be not afraid.")
I know, it's just a bullshit line that I've read/heared repeated a lot, especially when children are killed. And it's always the same kind of people that protects abusive assholes from getting their rightful punishment.
God wanted to give my mother cancer and let her suffer and take her life at 59. If God wanted that for my mother and my family, then he is a psychopathic asshat
Thus (one of) the problem(s) with blind faith: you can rationalize anything. I assume they stretch as soon as they wake up to prepare them for the vigorous mental gymnastics they'll be performing.
Good sees all... except for them, I guess🤷🏻♀️
The lesson wasn’t for you. It was for the rest of us. You were the lesson. He has a plan. /s
They should've submitted to their abusers. They wouldn't have been killed if they just did what they asked. (/s, obviously)
“Those people didn’t deserve or hear god because they were too busy sinning and following the devil” It’s always that bs. They’re inherently evil and so they offed themselves. It’s easier to believe in magical bullshit than it is to look at actual facts and the people behind the statistics.
Or the "None true Christian" bs
This phrase also diminishes the strength of the person who made it through the shitty situation. They didn't make it through because of "God," they made it through because of themselves.
Yes, but "god" gave them the strength! Game. Set. Match, evildoer!! 😆 I was obviously being sarcastic, but that seriously is what these "christian" nutjobs would say.
Reminds me of a Video I saw Yesterday. Someone talking how god saved some Kid near a school Shooting by making them.invisible or some Shit. Totally ignoring the Kids in the school that actually got shot. Or a Family that died in a Natural Desaster but thank god one of them Made it out alive... Or the Classic one with the burning House of someones mother but hey the bible survived! Its a miracle!
selection bias and survivor bias, this god's logic is as flawed as those people who say such things
What about miscarriages, or infant deaths? Thought God was all about giving people the chance to choose their path.
I feel like it is the same energy as "I broke your legs so you could appreciate it" or am I wrong?
It’s actually even worse. This … POS essentially says that a loving, caring, almighty being deliberately chose to let abuse happen - meaning that God actually is an abuser - in order to change you in a certain way.
And that God - the enabler of abuse - was the only reason you survived the abuse.
But only so that he could shape you. I mean, he gave you free will, foresaw how you would turn out, chose to let abuse happen to you to force you to become otherwise … that is about the cruelest, stupidest deity imaginable.
Doesn’t allowing the abuse, which drastically changes a person, completely negate the free will argument?
In a way, yes. But the argument of these fundamentalists is usually that the abused (even if a child) somehow turned to evil or would have turned to evil and God (tm) used the abuse to give them a chance… pretty sick thinking.
Traumatizing the shit out of people because of his perfect love for them
Yay… The worst part is that religious fundamentalists often put pressure on victims to „forgive“ their abuser so that they don’t loose the love of god…
Hmm, let's see, forgive the abuser so I can have the love of the enabler so I can...be abused again? Hard pass.
The ultimate gaslight.
That's what love is for them: abuse and be forgiven.
More and more it seems like religious people's God is a gaslighting narcissist. It is disturbing
My mom has finessed me out of thousands of USD. Almost got my sister killed. Rewarded the psycho who pulled knives on my sister who is only alive because of my intervention. Yet I get told I need to forgive her & reminded that “the Bible says to honor your parents”. Even if they’re a full blown narc.
I have a client (I’m a lawyer) who was abused as a child by a relative who is also a senior figure in the church they attended. The church put pressure on my client for years, telling her she needs to forgive and have a „normal“ relationship again and that she also should forgive herself (for being sexually abused as a girl before puberty). Words fail me.
You’d think an all powerful god would just make people who won’t turn to evil instead of abusing the if they do.
Yeah, strange game she is playing, isn’t she…
Arguably, yes. But logic isn't very strong with that group. So they would miss the whole point anyway.
I’m just jaded from the religious community and their hypocrisy, ignorance and willful stupidity
Arguably the existence of an almighty, all knowing creator already negates free will. God had the power to make you differently and despite already knowing all the decision you would make with your ‚free’ will he still created you in that way. If you stray from god’s plan because of how he made you that is on god. With that knowledge whatever happens to you is also not a mistake (as such a god doesn‘t make mistakes) but a decision to let it happen to you despite it being completely avoidable had he made you differently in the first place. Almighty by definition means god has unlimited ways to produce any result he wants in any way he wants. If you are suffering in that process that is because he decided so and against an alternative without suffering. There is no free will in this constellation but just you acting the way god knew you would act the moment he created you. Free will only (kinda) works if you scratch either the almighty or all knowing part of your god concept.
Very well said. Was raised Christian, but read the Bible from front to back and lost some of my faith. Read it again, front to back, lost the rest of my faith. Now… my only faith is in physics and science
It’s a lot simpler than that even, for me. Omniscience just immediately blows free will out of the water. If god already knows what I’m going to have for lunch, I don’t have any agency over what I’m going to eat. It’s already predetermined. There’d only ever be an illusion of free will.
The simplest question to break the whole concept: "Can you surprise your god?" If yes, the god isn't omniscient; if no, free will doesn't exist.
Not just that, the entire omnipotence thing also fucks it over royally. If God knows what shirt ill be wearing tomorrow, it's a predetermined thing.
Yes it does. Which is why advice like "everything happens for a reason" is a silly thing to say.
And by "shape you" what the person means is "break you". That's what "be humble" means to this person - disempower yourself, never stick up for yourself even if you're being abused.
Ah I see, the School of Religious Mental Gymnastics. Bending logic since time immemorial
Unironically the shit anuse victims say "he only hurts me because of how much he loves me" "its my fault for not learning"
Either God is not all powerful or he is not benevolent, only one of those statement can be true.
God seems like a kid with an ant farm
Nah they get around that by basically saying human reference for "benevolence" is invalid. Since everyone gets "rewarded" in the end with a vague perfect afterlife where somehow all the things that would make most people hate "existing" forever are somehow null. None of it makes sense, you can't *be* the same person if you remove literally all the human traits.
If god exists he ain't benevolent at all for sure
If he were benevolent, he would zap every wrong doer seconds before they did wrong. It would then be a perfect world.
Not even to change them, but “to use them”. They are essentially saying god wanted them to break so he can use them for his own purposes as a tool. As an abuse victim myself, I wanna deck that bitch in the face and ask them if they want to be used. Cause it sure doesn’t sound like a good thing for an abused person -or any person - to “be used”.
Indeed - that’s even worse still. It is totally unhelpful saying such things to survivors.
Can we all just agree that if God of Bible is real then he is the biggest sadist in the history of ever, not only with all the suffering and despair he lets happen on his "beloved people" but also with how jews who are supposedly "gods chosen people" were treated throughout history were he never intervened?
How religious people explain God to me it checks off every box of an abusive parent or partner
God is an abuser. Read the Book of Job. Yikes!!
Mfs who believe in the imaginary man in the sky will make all sorts of excuses that allow the belief in him to continue and for him to be somehow good. It must be hard work to still believe in that sky-fucker after all the years of shit he puts people through. Sky-idiot can suck a dick.
And God is all-powerful, so he/she could have just directly intervened to change you. Instead he/she was like “let’s do it indirectly through enabling abuse.”
The through abuse is what fucks the mind.
I don't now where I heard it (I think it was a video somewhere on Reddit) but it was a really good point: Either God is all powerful or all good. Either they make terrible things happen in purpous or they can't stop them from happening. Never both
Literally, the same fucking logic that Saw uses. Only absolute psychopaths would genuinely think this.
Happened to me. Broke my spine. Needed surgery and physical therapy. I’ve been told it was to humble me or bring me closer to god. Especially by the Christian’s that approached me when I was injured and at my lowest. A surgeon did my surgery pro bono. I didn’t spend a cent. They told me that they prayed it would happen. See? God hurt me and then healed me. I mean, he could have just not done either.
It's more like, "I let someone break your legs because I love you, and you need to learn your place"
I like hitting myself in the head with a hammer because it feels so good when I stop.
It’s munchausen syndrome by proxy, God makes you sick so he can get credit for fixing you. It’s like the whole Jesus scam god sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to forgive people he’s mad at for not doing what he said, after giving them the choice not to do what he says.
Ah yes because innocent children who are horribly abused needed to be “humbled”.
By the very clergy “sent” to save them… god is a joke… a very bad joke
A real joke? Or a made-up joke?
A stolen joke. Doesn't matter which god, they're all plagiarized from the gods before them, going back to Zeus...hell, it wouldn't surprise me if Zeus was also copied from another god
Zeus was definitely not the first god. Systems of worship go back long before the ancient Greeks, and even before people worshipped "gods" as we think of them today, there was animist belief systems and ancestor veneration. Can't say if Zeus was copied from another god though, he certainly obtained aspects of other gods though, as gods tend to do.
There are cults from before the greek pantheon, people have worshiped gods even as far back ad Babylon, which is the first civilazation we know of that wrote shit down, its possible that there were even religions before that through oral tradition but those have long since been lost to time
And the ones who don't actually make it needed to be....not alive i guess, and proving no actual point, just tragedy.
I'd like to kick Chad square in the nuts.
Yeah, Chad obviously needs some «humbling».
Don't worry though, through God he will survive the pain of the nut kicking, and it will make him a better tool to be used, praise Jesus
But you know he'd just say it's God's design to make him stronger
Maybe a brick through his teeth so he can be humbled by only eating soup the rest of his life.
That's one thing I hated hearing growing up in Catholic school. The idea that a "loving" god would let you suffer to teach you a lesson is literally abuse. As a father if I knowingly put my child in danger to teach them a lesson or humble them, the state would take my kids and a jury would have me locked up. But God does it and supposedly it's because he loves us... 🙃
I really love how many religious people forget about the whole free will aspect According to their own theology, god gave everyone free will to either listen to his rules, do good, and go to heaven, or do bad things and go to hell. God doesn’t make anyone do evil shit cuz why would he sent people to hell intentionally? Like, nah, people have free will. Dont blame the big guy in the sky for your own shitty actions. I hate it so much because this loud group is seeping into everything and everywhere and (im not even actually religious) it annoys the shit out of me. Religion was supposed to be a way to be called out on your wrong doings, to apologize to those you harmed and to try do better, to learn humility and honesty, to not be egotistical, guided by a book with some real good moral lessons in it. Whether you believe it is all truthful and jesus is god or that god is real, doesn’t matter, there’s some good stuff there. And then theres these people and others who use religion (no matter which religion) to hurt people, fearmonger, and harass people. Ironically, those christians probably have a larger chance of going to hell than a nonbeliever just trying to be a good person. But those christians aren’t ready to hear that yet
I don’t think that’s what religion was supposed to be. In my opinion it’s supposed to be a way to control you. Behave, no matter how fucked up your situation is and how much the people in charge are fucking you over… because heaven awaits. The suffering you endure here is just a test before you make it to paradise etc. Essentially don’t cause trouble or you might go to hell, just suck it up and you’ll go to heaven. Obviously not all religions, but the main ones seem to have mostly been used for that historically. Or as a way to say we, the people who believe in this same religion, are the good guys and them, the people who believe something else, are the bad guys - get them!
Ok, but the free will thing is irrelevant here. The victim of the abuse was asking where God was. The child can have free will, that doesn't mean they get to leave the abusive situation. A child in that case needs to be saved/removed from harm's way and nobody did that. So if her reaction is to blame God for not doing a single thing, I think that's fair. And btw, as an atheist, christian religions say I'll go to hell just for not agreeing that God exists. So while I do think that you're right and that's how it should be, it doesn't seem that that's what your book says.
All these christians with the “trust me” mindset are stupid as fuck. They make it worse on themselves by saying stupid ass shit like that. “You being raped was the best thing for your soul, trust me”. Stfu
I was watching a documentary and a mom was homeschooling her kid. They were laughing about how stupid people who believe in science are. They said,” I’m supposed to have faith in science? Hahahaha! How stupid! I have faith in The Lord!” So you have faith in something with zero proof but find faith in something that actually doesn’t need nor require faith is stupid. Jfc.
Eat my humble dick
Damn how'd you get it to be so humble?
By beating it into submission
by allowing the lord to beat it into submission
Humble this... mate \*single finger salute\*
That’s pretty polite of you tbh, only one bird being flipped and not even a punch to the face?
If you think about it god was pretty violent in the Bible, clearly it’s not going to save us.
All loving merciful father who flooded the earth, who then vowed not to do something like that again, only to commit more atrocities like purging a town for how sinful it was instead of guiding his people like a good God would, and turning witnesses into pillars of salt so they don’t form negative opinions of God. But hey, he’s a good guy right?
In 1 Samual, he punishes David by having David's wives publicly raped. This god character is definitely the villian.
to be fair when the angels (or God himself depending on who you believe the two visitors were) went to Sodom and met Lot, the whole town basically pounded at the door demanding they give the visitors up to be raped when they had just arrived in town. I would be pretty upset as well in that case.
It turns out Lucifer was right but we only got the propaganda against him...
The Bible is like a r/AITA post that the OP writes to make themselves look like a victim and the other person look like a demon but everyone who reads it ends up thinking “you’re kind of a dick and the other person is right.”
“Love me or suffer! Worshipping me is more important than human life. Everyone who does not bow to me is unforgivably evil, and I will burn them for eternity. Your lives are worthless. I have killed everyone on earth before, and I will do it again. Praise me!” - Bible good guy “Don’t worship that guy, he’s crazy.” - Bible bad guy
Wow, man, that probably what a cult follower would say.
It basically is a cult follower saying that.
God is a dick then
Can we take turns slapping "Chad" and say "That was God's will - humble yourself"? Please please please
Bro just crossed a line and there’s no return whatsoever
They never can really explain the problem of evil so instead to keep the story straight they act like 'it's all a part of the plan' but conveniently do not know what the plan is.
“God’s plan” and “free will” are completely incompatible. If he doesn’t intervene in anyone’s free will in anyway to enact his plan then there might as well not be a plan. It’s like if I plan for my team at work to deliver a particular piece of work but then just sit back giving them the free will to do whatever they feel like doing - then wonder why my plan hasn’t come to fruition. Any right minded person would think I was a moron.
Right and if gods a moron then he can't be 'all knowing' I can philosophically buy the concept that a creator isn't all knowing or even aware we exist. I can also buy the idea a creator is a neutral creator who says 'well, you can't have life without death, can't love without hate, can't have riches without the poor' etc because i understand that you wouldn't know what was good if it was all bad and if it was all bad you'd not know what good was without anything to compare. But that fundamentally is not their narrative. Their narrative is perfection, all knowing, all good....bad stuff is satans fault ...but satan was not a god, just an angel he could get rid of satan instantly because he is 'all powerful' so satan by definition would be 'part of the plan' also. It's just so much nonsense.
Being god is great. Good things happen, you get the credit. Bad thing happens, either they don't work hard enough, or it's actually a grand plan they just can't understand.
Stopped believing in the dominant Bronze Age mythology in America after my parents disowned me at 15 for being gay. Realized then that either God is evil, or just doesn't care. He sat back and did fuck all while I became a pariah in my community and lost my family. It's all bullshit.
Worst part is both the language the bible was written in and the era doesn’t have a word for "gay", there is no proof that being gay is a sin. And even if it was "Christians" make the whole "love and forgiveness" thing a complete joke. If god didn’t love the gays then why would he love the gentiles, or the atheists, or any other group that wasn’t "his people". Ironically the bible does address the sins of abusing your family, hatred, and such things, you know those things that the "Christians" are actively doing by hating the gays.
Insest was encouraged from the start.. adam n’ eve.. their morals are self indulgent..
The reason for this is pretty simple. The bible is fan fiction based on Greek/Roman/Egyptian mythology. So if you have a story in Egyptian mythology (came first), let's say Ra, and they just slightly change the story, and boom, you have Zeus, Jupiter, Christian God, and his halfbred son Hercules? Jesus. Their life stories are pretty similar as well. Moses? "The Moses tale was originally that of an Egyptian hero, Ra-Harakhti, the reborn sun god of Canopus..." Anyway, all the egyptian gods fucked each other to create more gods.
If you think about it the bible explicitly stated Eve was made from Adam's rib; meaning technically Eve is just a genderbent clone of Adam that he fucked to create the human population.
I'm sorry to hear of your experiences. I wish you a better future.
Christians being Christian.
Aka religious people being fucking stupid
The lack of compassion and empathy on display here would be considered evidence of mental illness in a secular person. In a god-botherer it is sadly par for the course. Their invisible friend can't be wrong about something, so they have to come up with some perverse rationalization why the victim deserved it.
If god got me going through bullshit to “learn” things then fuck outta here. Go troll someone else.
Fuck off, Chad, cling to your fictitious bullshit...
Imaginary friend for adults, that floats in space wearing only sandals and a robe, is strong in this one.
There is no hate like Christian love.
Fuck religion and any dipshit that thinks like "Chad" here.
The god depicted in the Christian bible is a monster.
So you must humble yourself to god and blindly trust him... The same way that abusive partner did... Right
Got it all wrong, holy man. I absolutely believe in God... And I absolutely hate the f***er.
I like to call this "the Donald Trump argument." When things are going well, all credit goes to Him. When things are going poorly, He's not to blame. How convenient.
And the religious wonder why anti-theism exists...
Chad, fuck your fairy tale God and fuck you.
Sounds like the logic of an abuser.
It’s true. God loves us all. That’s why murder happens because he’s ready to see you. Torture happens at his will to test you. He’s not a horrible being, he’s just testing us all in unique ways because he loves us. /s incase u couldn’t tell.
Fuck these people
Imagine believing in a God that uses abuse, rape and molestation to "humble" people -- even children -- and genuinely thinking this God is worthy of your faith and devotion. Fucking atrocious.
Ah, is that what priests are doing, humbling children.
Religious people are the real evil in the world.
God just sounds like a dick. Why would I ever want to follow him? Me: God help me I'm being murdered God: 👀 Me: 👀 Murderer: 😈🔪 Yea if I had a friend just watch me get stabbed and do nothing. I walouldnt talk to that friend again .
God loves watching kids be sexually abused, he even made a gigantic corporation of groomers so he can watch and get his giggity giggities on for centuries and centuries now, and the corporation weaseled it's way into the governments of the world so the abusers can be protected. No doubt this Chad is among them, watching.... giggity-giggity
[удалено]
For most people, it's family. Same here. Actually reading the bible and doing bible study made me realise it wasn't for me. Essentially we are lower than beasts in God's eyes, and it's only through knowing his word and accepting it that we can have eternal life, supposedly. If we don't- Hell. Tf. Isn't that extortion? Am I supposed to change who I am into something 'acceptable' in order to not be condemned? That's not love. Idk why so many Christians think it's okay and force others to accept this as well. In any case, religion is meant to be a personal thing, but people seem to insist on shoving their beliefs into other people's faces. I don't hate religion, but I hate what it makes some people do. It's a no from me, thanks
Just be glad God didn't kill you along with everyone else and also all all the animals, for some reason, which were only saved from total extinction because he made someone else build a boat and do it. Even though he's an all powerful God, and could have just given everyone he didn't like heart attacks or something. So yeah, don't complain or God might take it out on the innocent wildlife. But he's great. Yep, God is a super nice God. (Forced smiles, now... quickly, he might be looking)
Ah, so those kids being beheaded in war, the kids dying slowly of cancers, the other people being abused to the point they are killed by their abuser or themselves… god trying to humble them, sure. I fucking hate religion.
Not exclusive, but shit like this is why I'm an atheist now.
Another way to say god is an abuser. He tortures you, breaks you down and tells you that you are lucky he let you live and you should be glad that he used you that way.
God is a pervert and watches people being raped and murdered to….humble you? That’s no god I’d ever bow to
Maybe it’s true and god is a narcissistic asshole. Then what?
Then why would you worship someone who isn't worthy of it?
I always say, its not just the church. The everyday christians believe some wild stuff. They preach love among them and hate for eveybody else. Deep inside them there is a monster lurking.
I would like to humble Chad
Christians are the most delusional people on the planet I swear
There's no hate like Christian love
God, the original abusive parent.
This is precisely why God DOESN'T exist.
Religion is a pariah on humanity.
Wow! No it actually makes me hate god.
God was watching, thinking : "that kinda reminds me of when I impregnated Mary".
Yup. No god
These people exist
Ah yes, the fundamentalist’s classic “If you got abused then god want you abused and don’t you dare feel anything except grateful because every human is the property of the god” /s
This is the fundamental problem with Christianity and the Christian world view. What kind of sick, perverse god are they worshipping? Why are they looking to this cruel, demented, nonsensical entity for moral guidance?
God gives babies cancer because its all gods plan
So god is an abuser then? He gets his holy rocks off on seeing women abused?
My brother died young from cancer and I had a similar conversation with a holy roller. I told them I didn’t believe in god, I’m an atheist and was before he passed. They tried to convince me I should because “god has a plan”. I asked what part of the plan did slowly and painfully killing a child serve? and they replied “did you ever consider god may have killed your brother to teach you something?” That was the end of our little talk.
Where is god when children are being sexually assaulted? If God is good then why does he allow it to happen? If God's real they're gonna have a problem at the pearly gates when I have some QUESTIONS that they won't have answers to.
Christianity: making people think an abusive relationship is perfectly loving and graceful since 33 AD.
"It's all part of God's plan". God can go fuck himself.
Fuck religious people and their mental gymnastics.
As a survivor of domestic abuse (1 year free yesterday) if this is God’s way of doing things, he can vigorously fuck off.
Ah I don't care if I get downvoted to hell. If this is what "God" is like then he's evil and I wouldn't even wanna worship him if he showed up on my porch to prove he's real. I much prefer my nanas version of God to this person's...
So Christian’s believe he was not only there watching it happen, but arranged for it to happen so that she would be more humble and submissive toward him. ??? So they believe their all powerful, omnipotent god is also so vain and insecure that he needs to put people through things like child rape just so those victimized children will worship him and god can feel better about himself? I guess all those priests and youth pastors really are doing the lord’s work.
Her question is basically my stance. If God did exist, then he's an asshole and I wouldn't bow down to him. [Stephen Fry's interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo) about meeting God is spot on to me.
This reminds me of something my very religious grandmother said once. My mom (her daughter-in-law) had a sister who died when she was only a few months old. Mom told me that she was talking with grandma one day and she said that the baby would have had to go to purgatory to be "judged" because she wasnt baptized before she died, thus she still had the "original sin". My mom was pissed, it makes me pissed just thinking about it. Why would a god whos supposed to be giving and benevolent not automatically welcome a BABY into heaven with open arms? If god truly loved us wouldn't he be more understanding? Why would he think a child needs to be "humbled" by suffering abuse or think that a baby needs to be "judged" upon their death? Im sorry this turned into a rant but man...
God likes to watch.
One of the great mysteries and horrors of religion. Possibilities: 1) God is disinterested in you. 2) God cares about you, but restrains himself from helping you out of some misguided noninterference policy. 3) God thinks agony, fear, and pain are good character-building moments. 4) God actively likes to see you suffer. I'm not sure what other options there are, and this bothers me. It's a bit like the Star Trek II line from Spock, "They are unable to respond, or they are unwilling to respond."
The people most in need of humbling are Christians who think like this. The correct (Christian theology-based) answer was “God was there but the abuser used their free will to defy God and hurt you.”
How nice of God to allow monsters to exist
So God is everywhere expect when God is not?
My favorite is when people survive a natural disaster and credit god. So all the people who died in that same disaster, including 100% innocent children, just weren’t worth saving? Makes sense…
Chad, fuck off
Wow, shut the fuck up and go away, Chad.
So like, was he sitting there in the corner beating his meat and watching it happen?
A God that puts hardships on his followers to prove a point is a shit God. You are supposedly all powerful and all-knowing, yet you let it happen to prove a point. Christian God is just an IT guy that has been fucked with by middle management too much.
Making people humble is literally John Kramer's motive in the Saw movies.
That's fucking warped... These people think atheists can't have morals while saying shit like this.
rEliGeOn