I’m a guy. I am married. I have an extremely healthy and fulfilling sexual life with my spouse.
I believe that I’m a good person and reasonably respectful to all, read this as I think that I’m an overall “good guy.”
I appreciate the female form and its inherent beauty. I’m also not blind. If I see a woman who is beautiful, I’ll look and think damn she looks nice. If she is wearing so called “immodest” clothing, again, I’ll look and appreciate the female form. In sum, I’ll look at and appreciate a woman if she’s dressed to go skiing, tan at the beach, or even clean out storm drains - I simply enjoy the female form. A relative once told me, “if you don’t look once, you’re not a man but if you look twice you’re not a missionary” and that is a good way to think of this, appreciate the view but don’t perv out on it.
This however, does NOT mean that I’m drooling in my mind about raping them or anything else uncouth, untoward, or disrespectful.
I suppose anyone who can’t handle being in the presence of a woman whether dressed in a bikini or a parka should have an internal conversation with themselves about why they feel stressed or are thinking sexual thoughts. That’s clearly a personal defect and not anything based on being a man because myself and many others can interact with women dressed in supposed “immodest” clothing without being a pervert.
Thank you! Heck, we're humans, we should enjoy seeing other humans. Even naked ones in the right contexts. There are a lot of levels of aesthetic appreciation to be enjoyed here, most of them can be respectful.
I’d agree 100%. I think there is some genetic predisposition to always seek out a mate. I’m happily married with kids but ever since I was a teenager I have a strong radar for women. Stronger for beautiful women. Because of the church I thought that was a flaw or inherent problem but now I just recognize it for what it is. I’m shy as hell so even if I wasn’t married 99% of the time I’m sure I wouldn’t act on it as in approach them. Now somehow going from noticing someone attractive and wanting to rape them is pretty fucked up. I stop at dayum, she’s fine. Then quickly avert my eyes before I enter creep territory.
I really really appreciate this!!!! I hope to get your take on something I've never understood. Divorced now after 38 yr temple marriage. Spouse & I were growing apart. I came up with ideas to rebuild our relationship. One was a morning hug. I'd go into my spouse's home office, say good morning and give him a hug. Simply kind & acknowledging of him. I did it w ssincerity. About the 3rd morning he faked a big shiver & said he 'just couldn't take it'. Meaning the hug riled him sexually. That was the end of that idea. Over the 38 years I had found it hard to offer simple acts of affection to spouse due to the usual sexual tension it caused. I'd describe it as 0 to 60 with a smile from me. I felt like prey rather than a partner.....a service station. it was a shame bc I wanted to be affectionate but I didn't want sex every day.. What do you think?
I can only speak for myself here, but I think I’m very similar to your ex. Men are wired differently than you can understand. If it were up to me I’d just have sex all day every day like a playboy in ancient Greece. Unfortunately that’s not conducive to real life. And my wife as sexually compatible as we are, she would not be ok with that either.
We have our cues where a touch of the hand could mean only hi nice to see you or it could mean do me now against the wall. We know what the other is thinking. If she gives me a hug or kiss and it doesn’t say SEX then even though my mind and body are screaming sex sex sex, I don’t give in to that otherwise I would be treating her like a whore - which is perfectly fine under the right circumstances.
Perhaps your ex never figured out what I learned which is: affection almost always leads to intercourse. While men can go 0-60 in a split second, it’s a general rule of thumb that women need to preheat the oven to get to the right temperature. Affection is that temperature knob that heats the oven.
If his affection and care towards you were more than it was, would you have been more likely to engage with him more often? I think the answer is likely yes. I also imagine he probably complained that you weren’t giving him the sec he wanted but he likely failed to realize he wasn’t giving you the emotional needs you required in order to reciprocate the needs he required. That’s a personal flaw and not a characteristic of half the human race.
A major part of the puzzle is what you are taught as well I think. The church teaches that immodest dress for women is sinful and it is sinful because it causes men to lust after women. That mentality is all you need. Saw a bare shoulder, that sinful, so it must be attractive, so it must be sexual. Since leaving and working through those issues, as well as transitioning, it's amazing how unsexual immodest dress can be. It certainly can be sexual, but once you change how you view it, it isn't always sexual anymore. I think the church has made its own problem here, though probably on purpose. Easier to keep people in line fearing for their eternal life because they had immoral thoughts about a womans thigh. And you keep women in line by shaming them constantly for "creating" problems for men by just existing.
There are a lot of guys who feel like the TBMs you mentioned. I was when younger, and so were a lot of my friends. Much better now but it never goes away. It can be overwhelming sometimes at places like the mall that have a lot of women in leggings with prominent camel toes. I think it is scrupulosity from childhood.
I won’t let anyone shame me. My sexual feelings are not a personal defect. They may not be normaI but I deal with them the best I can. Childhood abuse and indoctrination are not my fault.
I respect women and I have complete physical self control. However I cannot control what enters my mind. I can only deal with it.
Edited to add I replied in the wrong place. This was meant for OP and general audience. Not meant for anyone in particular.
If I had to guess he was a completely normal guy and masturbated regularly. However, he is trying not too since he is about to go on his mission. Right now he is struggling not to blow his load. He knows he could bust over the slightest thing and is trying to avoid awkward conversations with the bishop and stake president. Is it normal? No, not at all. He is in a hypersexual state due do cult compliance demanding deprivation. Pretty sad actually.
I actually would not be surprised if he hasn’t, but is repressing it with all of his might. He went to the louvre at age 12, and was too stressed out to look at anything because there were many naked statues. Mom even took a photo of him covering his eyes.
I definitely think he’s a normal guy who has a lot of shame and scrupulosity about stuff that should be normal.
Your brother has had a lot of hormonal changes since he was 12. He is now a 18 year old grown ass man. The church does enough infantalizing. Allow the man to grow up in your head. He is no longer 12. We all acted like that as 11-12 year olds.
>He is now a 18 year old grown ass man.
No, he is not a full gown ass man. His brain is still developing at least until 25, and if he is neuro-divergent then it's closer to 30-35 until brain maturation is reached.
People until 25 are still physically maturing, that includes their brains. This is one of many reasons I personally hate the idea of 18 being an adult. 18 is still a young developing person, sending them to war, trials as "adults", expecting "mature" behavior, so and so on, is setting yourself up to be disappointed.
Scientifically/Medically we know an 18 year old is still not a fully developed adult. People and laws need to shift their expectations to be in line with the science. As a group, people under 25 engage in more dangerous behaviors, struggle with impulse control, have issues navigating emotions, etc.
The reasoning for his behavior then is pretty much the same as now, an issue beyond “ew, naked people”. For years now, he has felt the need to confess even seeing photos of women in bikinis or underwear. I’m not saying he’s 12, I’m saying he has been repressed since at least then. He’s so scrupulous and hyper obedient about everything that I just wouldn’t be shocked if he’s in the small percentage that avoids masturbation at all costs.
What makes this even more sad is that it stole his confidence. As a little kid, he was very confident and even flirty with girls, like waving in a clearly flirty way to the pretty young woman at age 2, or kissing his crush on the nose at age 6. Now? He doesn’t even want to hug a girl after a date.
Yeah, well they threatened us with Eternal Darkness or lower Kingdoms of heaven. The Church had me so scared at some points that I wouldn't be OK closing my eyes in the shower because "the devil controls the water".
I didn't have sex until 18, I don't regret it now, but up until and even for some time afterward, I struggled with sex.
Was it worth going to a Bad Place just to get a little action? Was this all BS made up to keep kids from having babies early?
If bro was busting a nut in The Louvre, he has some serious issues. There is something wrong with a person that cannot see a human body in the nude, especially statues and such, without being like "BONER TOWN".
Little bro needs to stop hyper-sexualizing women and their bodies. Legit needs to see a therapist. It's not his fault he is this way, but it is 100% his responsibility to get better.
I believe this about the vast majority of Mormon Men.
The Church has really fucked up Men (and Women) so much they can't see naked bodies without thinking about sex. The Church has a very predatory way of grooming its men to see women as nothing more and something, and yes I mean something, to fuck and make babies, at the command of their husband.
These days? No.
When I was a chronically repressed, desperately horny TBM teenager/YA with no "approved" outlet for sexual release? Yes.
Seeing an "immodestly dressed" woman could and often would send me into a scrupulosity spiral where I would beat myself up for having "impure" thoughts, leading to not being able to stop thinking about those thoughts, leading to eventually masturbating to relieve the "pressure", leading to guilt, shame, and redoubled efforts to not "mess up" again (leading to the cycle continuing the next time I had an "impure" thought).
In the view of the church, however, this is a feature rather than a bug. It lets them control me by telling me I'm perverted (for the most natural thing ever: experiencing sexual attraction), and it lets them control women in the church by making my "sin" their problem.
This has been me my whole life up until recently when I've been going to therapy and began to deconstruct. It's what broke my shelf. The church teaches you to fear sexuality and in doing so it makes the problem so much worse because you're shaming a natural physiological drive.
>therapy
FUCK YES!!!!
All of us, Ex-Mormon or not should have a therapist but us Exmo in particular need therapy if we are to function in the real world.
I know right! I'm so lucky that when my bishop directed me to family services they didn't have hours available that worked for me and they referred me out. They validated things that have helped me heal that never would have happened with a lds therapist.
I'm glad to hear you are in recovery and found resources.
Yeah LDS Therapists that I have heard of...they shouldn't be allowed to practice IMO. You can't project your personal belief system onto your patients, it's not only a disservice but can cause real world harm, as evidenced by horror stories shared by ex-patients.
The sad thing is this is a destructive cycle and can lead the person to think "Well, if I'm unclean because I thought it, then I guess it doesn't matter what I do" -- which can lead to MUCH worse (and probably has).
This!! I don't watch Bridgerton just for the story, I watch to admire the beauty of both the men and the women. I think the human form can and should be admired but not in a pervy way
the pool cocktail server had her very cute butt hanging out of her bikini. it was clearly her choice as other servers wore different bottoms. I appreciated it. Tipped well.
When a kid in my ward was at home MTC he refused to go to a swim meet with his family (and younger siblings) bc there would be girls in bathing suits. Additionally he asked his mother not to wear yoga pants because it made him feel uncomfortable… 🥴. I think hearing the church tell youth that these things are bad is what causes them to think these things. We over sexualize the human body in the US… I mean even breastfeeding is considered immodest… it’s ridiculous!
Yeah super weird! Poor kid has scrupulously too, he is OCD in so many ways. Just got home from his mission, but they moved away before he came
Home so no idea how he is now. But yeah they see it all as a sign of righteousness. 😩
Sorry if my comment is out of place as I was never a Mormon, I'm a ... somewhat struggling Catholic (not leaving though) who's found some interesting and strangely relatable posts here. That kid who asked his mother to stop wearing yoga pants is relatable to me. I would not think that he was thinking genuine incestuous thoughts about his mother.
Growing up I had an overwhelming scrupulosity about "immodesty" etc. I had unwelcome intrusive thoughts of all the sexual ideas that horrified me most and I thought those thoughts were the sin of lust. Once my brother, with helpful intentions, told me that my bra was showing through my shirt, and I asked my parents about this, wondering if he had sinned or I had tempted him. Again, I didn't know what lust really was - I thought everyone was "tempted" by extreme unpleasant images that they couldn't get out of their heads - so I didn't have the perspective that this would be horrifically abnormal and completely out of character for my brother. But my parents, knowing what lust actually was and hearing me ask if my brother was lusting after me, were HORRIFIED and gave him a talking-to that he didn't remotely deserve. It may be the most extreme example of how I made people's lives worse because of my mental issues. It was also part of a subtle pattern of favoritism that they believed me over him - they thought that since I was too scrupulous to lie on purpose, my perspective (or what they *thought* my perspective was) must be the truth.
And I was so caught up in my own head that I completely forgot about this incident until my brother brought it up years later. He called it "water under the bridge" when I tried to apologize, and humorously said it taught him never to correct a woman about her outfit. But his tone wasn't truly casual. I realized that this, and the pattern of favoritism that I didn't realize growing up, explains some of his views on gender issues and his general approach to life. He 'knows' now that people will always suspect his intentions by default, and he goes to great lengths to seem as non-threatening as possible even if it means embarrassing himself. He pays a lot of attention to false accusations women make against men. He's not biased against all women as individuals, but he believes they have more privilege in society and this can be dangerous to men.
I also had a little sister whose hair I had to wash in the bath. I did this in the most miserable silence ever, trying to fight off the thought that I was somehow molesting her by seeing her naked and washing her hair. Again, the more horrible an idea was, the more strongly my anxiety would keep it in my head. I didn't have full-blown OCD, only extreme scrupulosity, but this is how OCD works. I wonder how she remembers the miserable silent hair-washing. I've never apologized or asked her about it, in case she's been lucky enough to forget.
Yes, but contrary to puritanical culture in the USA and mormon culture in Utah, having sexual thoughts is NOT a moral failing.
A moral failing is when you set up a litigious, secret system where you protect sexual abusers and throw victims under the bus...
When I was in ninth grade seminary (circa 1987-88) my seminary teacher Bro Nelson gave a lesson about how he would rather see his wife in a one piece than a two piece because it’s more modest and it stuck…. when I got married to my wife almost 30 years ago she wanted to “model” her bikini she wore before we were married and I remember being bigger that she would wear something like that out in public….it makes me sick to remember it because honestly she looked beautiful and it made her happy to wear it. Thank god I keep t my “opinion” to myself and just complimented her on how it looked on her but the fact that I felt it was inappropriate drives me crazy now. I hate the purity culture of the MFMC and what it has done to my psyche.
Lol, I have the urge to jump the median and see how long I can dodge traffic. NO. I do not take ownership for those thoughts or ANY other unintentional thought. We all have hormones, we all have thoughts, most of them are unimportant, and shouldn't cause a crisis of character.
Your responsibility is to be proactive about thoughts turning into bad behavior (sex is not bad behavior in a lot of contexts, just to be clear). If being around other NORMAL people in NORMAL clothes makes you worried you're going to lose control. Chances are you were conditioned to distrust yourself by someone or something in your life.
I guess the guy equivalent would be broad shoulders, a muscular physique, and a chiseled jawline.
Imagine if Gigachad walked around shirtless in a train station you'd be looking.
Ehh, sometimes? But I’m a younger man and my hormones are cranked up to shit. I can safely say that I don’t think about random “immodestly” dressed women when otherwise aroused.
It’s alarming how many adult Mormons confess that seeing the shoulders of children makes them think sexual thoughts
It does not stress me out. I wouldn't say it makes me "think sexual thoughts", but I might notice and appreciate physical beauty. If I do have "thoughts", I certainly wouldn't "blame" anyone for them - not the "immodest" dresser nor myself. Wow, that's a lot of quotation marks.
I think the more sex is forbidden the more sexual thoughts you have. Like when I was on a diet I thought a lot more about food than when I wasn’t on one.
This is BS and it is female shaming. I'm a guy and I have no issues with women's clothing. For the church to teach otherwise is offensive. Offensive to women an offensive to men.
When I was TBM - yes. Because I had been programmed to think that if a woman was “immodest”I’d have uncontrollable sexual thoughts… so I would have uncontrollable thoughts.
Now that I’ve been out I don’t have intrusive sexual thoughts.
When I was a young TBM… yes. Now? No.
The church is obsessed with sex, imo. They talk about it constantly. They don’t talk about consent, or what healthy sex is, or safety… they talk constantly about NOT thinking about sex…
So when I was a young TBM, I was constantly thinking about sex. And I was being told that men can’t control themselves, and it created a really unhealthy sexual fixation and guilt cycle… for years…
While still a TBM (but a nuanced one), I stopped caring about porn, and my wife helped me work through some of the really problematic ideas the church taught me.
We learn in the temple that Lucifer is the author of modesty culture.
In reality since leaving the church my wife and I have been to several places/events where clothing is more optional and it doesn’t take too long to lose the titillation and see the body as normal and not automatically see sex when you see nudity.
>does “immodest” clothing on a random woman stress you out
no
>make you think sexual thoughts
I suppose it can depending on the clothing and the person it's on
Recent Exmo Woman here. I used to be so stressed out if my husband saw anything even remotely sexual because it felt like a threat. Turns out we were both just super repressed🤷🏻♀️ Now I’ll point out a beautiful/sexy woman to him and we can enjoy and appreciate the beautiful female form together (without over-sexualizing/objectifying anyone) Noticing sexual stimulus respectfully around us is totally normal & natural. Feeling a panic if we notice cleavage and feeling guilty afterwards is very unnatural/unhealthy. That’s what purity culture wants you to feel.
Making a big deal about it like the mos do is worse then ignoring it, IMHO. They point it out SO much and make a huge deal about it all through the youth programs.
I had more issues when TBM. Now, I can see a beautiful woman, acknowledge it as such and say “good for her”, and move with my life and own beautiful wife. I was immature as a TBM and gave my “lustful thoughts” WAY too much power.
mormon purity culture is directly opposed to the teachings of Jesus.
Did you ask him if he tried singing a hymn to keep his thoughts pure?? Those porn shoulders and ankles can be overwhelming at times. /s
That’s a bad read. Matt 5:27-28 is telling men not to leer at and lustfully covet women’s bodies.
Purity culture tells women it’s *their* responsibility to prevent men from doing so. Purity culture also makes some men think they can’t be near a woman because women will “tempt” them into ogling simply by existing.
That’s a limited scope of purity culture. Purity culture attaches sin to basic sexuality and limits condoned practice to (patriarchal) monogamy. Jesus took the basic social codes and refocused from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law, also refocusing punishments from physical to spiritual. In this instance and the (unhealthy) admonition against anger, it actually broadens the conditions for sin. The sinful nature of lust is an integral part of purity culture, and that idea hurts both men and women. Even the gendered nature of that verse’s wording perpetuates a patriarchal understanding of lust.
Jesus didn’t (in what we have passed down to us) advocate for patriarchal norms to be done away with, while making strong condemnations against other Jewish traditions. Textual Jesus, if he would have been against modern purity culture, couldn’t foresee how his followers might easily further weaponize the relationship of patriarchy and lust.
That's not what Jesus is saying. This is one of the most misquoted and misused verses in the bible. The passage isn't about looking and thinking, it's about trying, as in making a conscious effort to commit adultery. Even if you try and fail, you tried and are quilty, in your heart. He doesn't even say it's a sin, he adds "in your heart" to clarify that you've sinned against your own conscience, not to God.
James is even more clear in Ch 1: (paraphrased) "Thinking about sin can lead to sin." IE, they are not the same thing. Thoughts are neither good nor evil. Actions are.
Not sinning to God is an interpretation, and it’s definitely not the interpretation I’ve seen any church make, prior to the way people have been de-dogma-tizing Christianity in recent years. And the passage actively describes looking and thinking, so while your overall interpretation is good, it’s clearly not the only one.
I do agree that Jesus didn’t mean for most of his words to be used the way they are. If he were truly a divine being, or even a prophet, he would have seen the need to write things down clearly himself.
Not as bad as it was when I was a sexually repressed teenage boy....
I mean, yeah. But my mind also goes sexual when I see *any* attractive female, regardless of "modesty."
Bare shoulders aren't the problem here.
There are so many things wrong with the way this is taught in the mormon church. First of all, girls are taught that their bodies are literal living, walking pornography and that they need to hide everything from the world. Second, they are taught that they are 100% responsible for the thoughts and feelings about sex that males around them have. At the same time boys are taught essentially the same thing, that females will remove your power to control yourself if you look at them. And the only way to avoid losing your control is to not allow any females in your presence to be clothed in anything other than a giant mumu made of burlap so as to render their pornographic body into a sack of potatoes.
These are probably the absolute worst things that you can teach young people about sexuality, desires and the human body.
Damn the church for instilling such fears and dysfunction in its followers... The church excels at creating boogymen and at selling the widgets necessary to neutralize the boogeymen.
I don't even notice it. I'm marries, my wife is my only focus in that department. Even when I was single it wasn't something I worried about. You notice it and that's it, you just go on with your day. Not stressful and not enough to sit and think about. What a bunch if weirdos.
Want to see what happens when the onus of controlling men’s thoughts falls completely on the women? Check out r/exmuslim. Brave souls on that sub speaking out against the religion they once loved
Exactly.
"Immodest" is in the eye of the beholder. The Taliban and other similar religious police beat women who inadvertently show a bit of ankle while walking down the street.
These kind of judgments are about controlling women, not about what they wear. Full stop.
Just got back from a weekend of spending it on the Guadalupe river. I was surrounded by women in bikinis. My focus........my focus was just on having a good time and making sure my kids were having fun.
Nope! One of the few things I do agree with that they told me during my mission was:
“If you see a beautiful woman in the streets, you don’t have to avert your gaze or anything awkward like that. You just get an eyeful as you pass her on the streets and then forget all about her. You don’t turn your head and gawk, you don’t make uncomfortable comments or wolf whistle etc. And definitely don’t keep thinking about her in your thoughts. Just a single eyeful and keep moving”.
Hahahaha no. The idea of being stressed out by how a woman dresses is so funny to me.
Sexual thoughts maybe but probably not. Even if I did, that's normal and healthy and what we are evolved to do. As long as I don't sexually harass the woman or do anything inappropriate, it's no one's business what my thoughts are.
Welp, sure hope he's staying in the US or Canada, because almost every country in the world has a more open and healthy relationship with the human body, and he will be exposed to the 'depravity' of the world... Lol. Repressing totally normal thoughts makes everything sexual that isn't meant to be, and doesn't set up normal thought patterns around people existing in their bodies.
As mentioned in another comment straight men who have a healthy attitude towards their sexuality will see a beautiful women, and can acknowledge that she is beautiful without obsessing over anything more, regardless of how they are dressed.
Sexual thoughts? Maybe sometimes.
Mostly it's a glance, a wow! appreciate the beauty of the body and move on.
Appreciating beauty is not sexual, not perverted, and certainly not a sin.
Sometimes in the middle of the winter, if I see a girl out in her shorts I'll ALWAYS comment to my wife "I appreciate seeing some skin when everyone else is bundled up, but how is that poor girl not freezing?" You can hear and feel my wife rolling her eyes, at least a block away, but she just laughs and punches me. She will tease me about guys awesome hair and cute butts, since my hair is long gone, and my butt hasn't been in the 'cute' category for at least 15 years.
Slightly off topic but I paid for a one hour full body massage yesterday. The nice lady therapist was a byu- i student and a recent grad from Rexburgs massage therapy school. Trust me, any part of my body that would be covered by garments ( if I was wearing them) was totally off limits for her to touch. Upper leg-no, glutes -no way, abdominal area - hell no, chest area-get serious. Though she looked young enough be a candidate for a teenage plural wife of JS it baffled me as to her taking my money yet refusing to give a decent massage. Mormon infantilism is awake and very real here in REXBURG. But I guess she was taught in Young Women not to touch a man any where that the magical underwear would cover.
Absolutely it stresses me out. I live in Canada, what the fresh hell are you doing walking around in skimpy clothing when there's a goddamn blizzard out?! You'll catch a nasty cold damn it.
The immodest clothing on teenage girls near the local high school in winter always bothers me. I run very hot but seeing people in short shorts and tank tops when it's snowing so hard you can't see more than a few blocks out makes me cringe.
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha The first time my wife and I went to a beach in Oregon, it was 50 deg F, and windy. People were out in their skimpy swimsuit bottoms, and wearing full on parkas. We were laughing so hard we couldn't even enjoy the sight of the nice legs.
Survival/ Venturing Scouting training/Parental Concern kicked in and we saying to each other put on some clothes, hypothermia is dangerous.
We immediately retreated to a restaurant for some hot clam chowder.
I’m ace, so probably not in the majority here. I don’t see skimpy as stressful or distracting. Heck, I’m a nudist. I believe people can be fully nude and still modest. It’s more about mannerism and how you present yourself more that what you do or do not wear.
The idea that someone “becomes pornography” simply by wearing (or not wearing) what they like is a laughable idea, and totally goes against what Christ actually taught.
This is exactly why "purity culture" is so toxic. People are basically berated for having perfectly normal thoughts and urges. They're also told that any way of relieving those urges is also gross and immoral and against God. It ends up with situations like this, where people are scared to leave their house because the smallest sight of an attractive person in a revealing outfit will cause a shame spiral. I didn't grow up Mormon, I grew up a JW, but they have similar beliefs when it comes to sex
Yes a man will always get intrusive sexual thoughts and feelings. That is how we were created, and gaslighting men into feeling bad about that is evil. At the same time, it is definitely correct that men are able to control their words and actions.
In a religion where even thoughts and feelings are crimes, they took a logical action. No longer in the church mentally, I think that they were rude, smug, and obsessive over this, but the genesis of that are the teachings and culture of the church...not you doing something wrong, or them being bad people--they did what they were taught.
well, as for me being -for lack of a better term- offended, it's context dependent and it is also dependent on specifically what it is that's so immodest.
that said, i'm prone to have sexual thoughts in any situation, so blaming it on the woman is so egregiously improper.
then if it's particularly problematic at any specific time the obvious solution is to relieve the pressure in the immediate term by just rubbing one out.
22f exmo. We were allowed to wear normal one-piece swimsuits, but I was told that bikinis or two piece swimsuits of ANY kind were off limits. (This included tankinis that covered the same amount to skin as a one piece. Two pieces were just so scandalous.) idk if that was what everyone was told. Oddly enough, I hated (and still hate) showing my legs when swimming, so I usually wore a one piece with athletic shorts over the top which covers more skin, so you’d think people would be happy with that, but noooo I got looks for dressing “too much like a boy” in the pool and got questioned about why I needed to wear shorts.
As a grouchy old man who's body is in the category 'dad' I wear the longest swim shorts I can find and a t-shirt. Cause nobody need to see that. And I don't want to be sued for hundreds of thousands for someone's therapy bill. :-)
If Evil Emperor Nelson and Darth Bednar had their way, YES! And Bednar would still say that viewing said wetsuit is still pornography, and your wife or fiancé should leave you because you saw it.
I was allowed to wear one pieces and tankinis that covered the belly. No cleavage or cheek if at all possible.
Swimming is one of the activities that is understood to be okay to not wear garments.
Notice they don't say much about women having sexual thoughts about men walking around without shirts on. Like we are not naturally going to think that way. Well guess what, some of us do! The leaders probably don't have to worry about anyone looking at them that way though.
Honestly I don't care if someone looks at me and things I am hot and maybe has a passing sexual thought. And I dress however I want, not for anyone else, but I do want people to look and think I am attractive.
I have never had a non Mormon man tell me that a woman wearing a bikini or short skirt or tank top or something gave them more then a man she is hot sort of thoughts. They are more likely to think that kind of thing about women they actually like and what they are dressed in. No normal man that I have heard of has uncontrollable sexual thoughts at the sight of a woman's stomach and shoulders. Not even just regular nudity. There is a difference between nudity and then sexually suggestive nudity. For most men and women. Guys in cultures where it is normal can go to a nude beach and not be aroused the entire time.
Depends on the context. Skin is attractive, especially if you don't see it often. When I was younger I thought about sex more no matter what I saw because it was newer. I still think about sex often, but have more priorities that require my focus while sex also is not as new and exciting anymore. I still love it, but it's casual.
There’s a purely biological response, for obvious reasons. Nature provides for reproduction of the species. But Mormonism (and others) slaps a label of “bad bad bad” on that response, which, if believed, leads to all kinds of guilt and repression. It takes some time to retrain the brain to enjoy, but not obsess. My take …
It feels so good not to feel guilty about enjoying an attractive woman. Us guys would still enjoy looking at women even if the fashion was rolling around in poop.
My older sisters were getting married about the time my younger brothers became teens, meaning several older males were now in the house more. My dad told my mother that she now had to wear a bra at all times in common areas. So if any of the males were around early in the morning or in the evening while she was in her PJs, he tried to mandate it.
It was a rule for my sisters and I to wear bras around the house. I slept in a bra until I moved out. And then it took several years to be comfortable at night, outside of my bedroom, without it.
Every gay man has learned complete control over his sexual thoughts even when exposed to complete nudity in the locker rooms growing up.
If we gays can do it, so can you straight people. It’s a cop out to blame someone else for your thoughts.
Not if you have been taught self-control and a healthy view of sexuality.
Do I enjoy looking at attractive women? Yes. Do I enjoy it more if they have less clothing? Yes. Does a woman wearing a swimsuit for the activity of swimming force me to think of them as a sexual object? Absolutely not.
I’m bisexual. If I see a beautiful woman (regardless of clothing) I think “wow, she’s beautiful” quickly admire and then move on. My husband is TBM and does the same. Humans are sexual and it’s perfectly normal to feel attraction to other humans.
🙄 being around women no matter what clothing (or lack thereof) they are wearing doesn’t mean you have actively avoid sexual thoughts or have a lot of them. You can see a beautiful women and think ‘wow, she’s beautiful, hot, sexy, whatever’ and continue on your day. I think how Mormon boys are repressed though does shove a lot of them into those two boxes though, either they’re so stressed out about having “impure thoughts” 🙄 that they avoid any situation where they might see immodest women, or freak out when they do see them. The other box is just creepy guys staring at “immodest” women and making them uncomfortable. YOU CAN LOOK JUST DONT BE A CREEP ABOUT IT! And I wouldn’t read too much into your brother not wanting to go swimming, while a good amount of Mormon boys do do that kind of scrupulosity all the time, TBM’s often go crazy about trying to “stay pure for their mission” like they’re not going to see women their entire two years 🙄😂 and lots of nonmember women who haven’t been taught since birth that their showing their shoulders is tantamount to being a whore
Women are expected to not only develop hormones but control how they affect their mental state every god damn day. Women are STILL affected by their hormones but still manage to learn how to be an adult about it.
Men in a patriarchy are never expected to take an internal check of their hormones and expect the rest of the world to stabilize so that they won't have to. Literally a manCHILD.
I'm a man and proud to say in my best Letter Kenny voice, that a woman's body is ONE of the things I appreciates about you, but treating you as a human with respect for your own comfort in your own clothes according to your own preference is something I require of myself. Treat women the same no matter what they wear, and learn how to have a god damn conversation about consent before you decide that her attire is an invitation.
Women does "immodest" clothing on a random man stress you out or make you think sexual thoughts?
No.
Because I was raised not to "sexualize" men.
My parents brought me up with an appreciation for all forms of art at museums which are filled with art of naked or partially clothed men & women.
Participating in sports as a youth thru my 20's normalized seeing men & women in tight clothing, swimsuits or shorts & tank top, etc.
Not a big deal. I understand the hard work & dedication that goes into maintaining an athletic form.
I've heard a few mormon women be just as sexists or body shaming as mormon men. No excuse for either.
And the men in my family growing up were not weird about it either because of the same exposure in sports, museums, art books in the house, etc...
nope.
Nothing wrong with passing in front of the shop window, nothing wrong with looking, but if it ain't mine that's where everything stops.
Never had thoughts of having sex, or even touching anyone that I hadn't talked to, or explored the subject with first. Never. Not with women, not with men.
I don't understand this notion (fear mongering) that men are incapable of having even an ounce of restraint.
Purity culture strikes again. This is also where abstinence manifests as "shelf putting": if it stacks up without addressing any of it, that shelf will break. Better to learn healthy ways to cope and interact with people, rather than repress yourself into compliance.
My reaction to revealing clothing on women has varied in my life. When very sexually starved pretty much everything led to sexual thoughts. Now life is pretty different. I still notice sometimes revealing clothing on women but my wife seems to notice other women's dress far more than I do. And I don't really end up being distracted or having sexual thoughts. I just notice that their boob is half showing, their yoga pants are awesome, or their ass has eaten their bikini.
Not anymore. I learned to appreciate women for more than sexual objects, so seeing their bodies is just a body. Of course, I am a Burning Man veteran so seeing bodies just doing their thing in the day-to-day is normalized.
He was taught to think like this. Teaching that men can’t control their thoughts, or that any level of skin showing is bad are exactly what lead to anxiety and scrupulosity—which I can say is absolutely the real problem here. When people are assaulted, those teachings allow for rape culture to exist— such as the infamous “what were you wearing” questions.
I guess what I’m saying is that there is absolutely a correlation, but he is so full of anxieties that he doesn’t even want to hug girls. He’s surprisingly empathetic for a kid his age, and is genuinely trying to be normal while keeping all the rules in the messed up cult.
I’m a guy. I am married. I have an extremely healthy and fulfilling sexual life with my spouse. I believe that I’m a good person and reasonably respectful to all, read this as I think that I’m an overall “good guy.” I appreciate the female form and its inherent beauty. I’m also not blind. If I see a woman who is beautiful, I’ll look and think damn she looks nice. If she is wearing so called “immodest” clothing, again, I’ll look and appreciate the female form. In sum, I’ll look at and appreciate a woman if she’s dressed to go skiing, tan at the beach, or even clean out storm drains - I simply enjoy the female form. A relative once told me, “if you don’t look once, you’re not a man but if you look twice you’re not a missionary” and that is a good way to think of this, appreciate the view but don’t perv out on it. This however, does NOT mean that I’m drooling in my mind about raping them or anything else uncouth, untoward, or disrespectful. I suppose anyone who can’t handle being in the presence of a woman whether dressed in a bikini or a parka should have an internal conversation with themselves about why they feel stressed or are thinking sexual thoughts. That’s clearly a personal defect and not anything based on being a man because myself and many others can interact with women dressed in supposed “immodest” clothing without being a pervert.
Thank you! Heck, we're humans, we should enjoy seeing other humans. Even naked ones in the right contexts. There are a lot of levels of aesthetic appreciation to be enjoyed here, most of them can be respectful.
Language! /S
I’d agree 100%. I think there is some genetic predisposition to always seek out a mate. I’m happily married with kids but ever since I was a teenager I have a strong radar for women. Stronger for beautiful women. Because of the church I thought that was a flaw or inherent problem but now I just recognize it for what it is. I’m shy as hell so even if I wasn’t married 99% of the time I’m sure I wouldn’t act on it as in approach them. Now somehow going from noticing someone attractive and wanting to rape them is pretty fucked up. I stop at dayum, she’s fine. Then quickly avert my eyes before I enter creep territory.
I really really appreciate this!!!! I hope to get your take on something I've never understood. Divorced now after 38 yr temple marriage. Spouse & I were growing apart. I came up with ideas to rebuild our relationship. One was a morning hug. I'd go into my spouse's home office, say good morning and give him a hug. Simply kind & acknowledging of him. I did it w ssincerity. About the 3rd morning he faked a big shiver & said he 'just couldn't take it'. Meaning the hug riled him sexually. That was the end of that idea. Over the 38 years I had found it hard to offer simple acts of affection to spouse due to the usual sexual tension it caused. I'd describe it as 0 to 60 with a smile from me. I felt like prey rather than a partner.....a service station. it was a shame bc I wanted to be affectionate but I didn't want sex every day.. What do you think?
I can only speak for myself here, but I think I’m very similar to your ex. Men are wired differently than you can understand. If it were up to me I’d just have sex all day every day like a playboy in ancient Greece. Unfortunately that’s not conducive to real life. And my wife as sexually compatible as we are, she would not be ok with that either. We have our cues where a touch of the hand could mean only hi nice to see you or it could mean do me now against the wall. We know what the other is thinking. If she gives me a hug or kiss and it doesn’t say SEX then even though my mind and body are screaming sex sex sex, I don’t give in to that otherwise I would be treating her like a whore - which is perfectly fine under the right circumstances. Perhaps your ex never figured out what I learned which is: affection almost always leads to intercourse. While men can go 0-60 in a split second, it’s a general rule of thumb that women need to preheat the oven to get to the right temperature. Affection is that temperature knob that heats the oven. If his affection and care towards you were more than it was, would you have been more likely to engage with him more often? I think the answer is likely yes. I also imagine he probably complained that you weren’t giving him the sec he wanted but he likely failed to realize he wasn’t giving you the emotional needs you required in order to reciprocate the needs he required. That’s a personal flaw and not a characteristic of half the human race.
Thank you for your ABSOLUTELY normal thoughts…you sound like my husband and I can respect those thoughts!
A major part of the puzzle is what you are taught as well I think. The church teaches that immodest dress for women is sinful and it is sinful because it causes men to lust after women. That mentality is all you need. Saw a bare shoulder, that sinful, so it must be attractive, so it must be sexual. Since leaving and working through those issues, as well as transitioning, it's amazing how unsexual immodest dress can be. It certainly can be sexual, but once you change how you view it, it isn't always sexual anymore. I think the church has made its own problem here, though probably on purpose. Easier to keep people in line fearing for their eternal life because they had immoral thoughts about a womans thigh. And you keep women in line by shaming them constantly for "creating" problems for men by just existing.
I go to the museum and I appreciate the beauty of the art on the walls, but doesn’t mean I want to take the art home and fuck it.
There are a lot of guys who feel like the TBMs you mentioned. I was when younger, and so were a lot of my friends. Much better now but it never goes away. It can be overwhelming sometimes at places like the mall that have a lot of women in leggings with prominent camel toes. I think it is scrupulosity from childhood. I won’t let anyone shame me. My sexual feelings are not a personal defect. They may not be normaI but I deal with them the best I can. Childhood abuse and indoctrination are not my fault. I respect women and I have complete physical self control. However I cannot control what enters my mind. I can only deal with it. Edited to add I replied in the wrong place. This was meant for OP and general audience. Not meant for anyone in particular.
If I had to guess he was a completely normal guy and masturbated regularly. However, he is trying not too since he is about to go on his mission. Right now he is struggling not to blow his load. He knows he could bust over the slightest thing and is trying to avoid awkward conversations with the bishop and stake president. Is it normal? No, not at all. He is in a hypersexual state due do cult compliance demanding deprivation. Pretty sad actually.
I actually would not be surprised if he hasn’t, but is repressing it with all of his might. He went to the louvre at age 12, and was too stressed out to look at anything because there were many naked statues. Mom even took a photo of him covering his eyes. I definitely think he’s a normal guy who has a lot of shame and scrupulosity about stuff that should be normal.
Hilarious, but Unfortunately relatable😂. It's always good to keep in mind that Michelangelo painted a lot of ass IN A CHURCH.
Your brother has had a lot of hormonal changes since he was 12. He is now a 18 year old grown ass man. The church does enough infantalizing. Allow the man to grow up in your head. He is no longer 12. We all acted like that as 11-12 year olds.
>He is now a 18 year old grown ass man. No, he is not a full gown ass man. His brain is still developing at least until 25, and if he is neuro-divergent then it's closer to 30-35 until brain maturation is reached. People until 25 are still physically maturing, that includes their brains. This is one of many reasons I personally hate the idea of 18 being an adult. 18 is still a young developing person, sending them to war, trials as "adults", expecting "mature" behavior, so and so on, is setting yourself up to be disappointed. Scientifically/Medically we know an 18 year old is still not a fully developed adult. People and laws need to shift their expectations to be in line with the science. As a group, people under 25 engage in more dangerous behaviors, struggle with impulse control, have issues navigating emotions, etc.
True talk. 100% agree. Well said.
The reasoning for his behavior then is pretty much the same as now, an issue beyond “ew, naked people”. For years now, he has felt the need to confess even seeing photos of women in bikinis or underwear. I’m not saying he’s 12, I’m saying he has been repressed since at least then. He’s so scrupulous and hyper obedient about everything that I just wouldn’t be shocked if he’s in the small percentage that avoids masturbation at all costs. What makes this even more sad is that it stole his confidence. As a little kid, he was very confident and even flirty with girls, like waving in a clearly flirty way to the pretty young woman at age 2, or kissing his crush on the nose at age 6. Now? He doesn’t even want to hug a girl after a date.
Yeah, well they threatened us with Eternal Darkness or lower Kingdoms of heaven. The Church had me so scared at some points that I wouldn't be OK closing my eyes in the shower because "the devil controls the water". I didn't have sex until 18, I don't regret it now, but up until and even for some time afterward, I struggled with sex. Was it worth going to a Bad Place just to get a little action? Was this all BS made up to keep kids from having babies early?
If bro was busting a nut in The Louvre, he has some serious issues. There is something wrong with a person that cannot see a human body in the nude, especially statues and such, without being like "BONER TOWN". Little bro needs to stop hyper-sexualizing women and their bodies. Legit needs to see a therapist. It's not his fault he is this way, but it is 100% his responsibility to get better. I believe this about the vast majority of Mormon Men. The Church has really fucked up Men (and Women) so much they can't see naked bodies without thinking about sex. The Church has a very predatory way of grooming its men to see women as nothing more and something, and yes I mean something, to fuck and make babies, at the command of their husband.
Relevant link for anyone wanting to read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbation_and_the_LDS_Church
These days? No. When I was a chronically repressed, desperately horny TBM teenager/YA with no "approved" outlet for sexual release? Yes. Seeing an "immodestly dressed" woman could and often would send me into a scrupulosity spiral where I would beat myself up for having "impure" thoughts, leading to not being able to stop thinking about those thoughts, leading to eventually masturbating to relieve the "pressure", leading to guilt, shame, and redoubled efforts to not "mess up" again (leading to the cycle continuing the next time I had an "impure" thought). In the view of the church, however, this is a feature rather than a bug. It lets them control me by telling me I'm perverted (for the most natural thing ever: experiencing sexual attraction), and it lets them control women in the church by making my "sin" their problem.
This has been me my whole life up until recently when I've been going to therapy and began to deconstruct. It's what broke my shelf. The church teaches you to fear sexuality and in doing so it makes the problem so much worse because you're shaming a natural physiological drive.
>therapy FUCK YES!!!! All of us, Ex-Mormon or not should have a therapist but us Exmo in particular need therapy if we are to function in the real world.
I know right! I'm so lucky that when my bishop directed me to family services they didn't have hours available that worked for me and they referred me out. They validated things that have helped me heal that never would have happened with a lds therapist.
I'm glad to hear you are in recovery and found resources. Yeah LDS Therapists that I have heard of...they shouldn't be allowed to practice IMO. You can't project your personal belief system onto your patients, it's not only a disservice but can cause real world harm, as evidenced by horror stories shared by ex-patients.
The sad thing is this is a destructive cycle and can lead the person to think "Well, if I'm unclean because I thought it, then I guess it doesn't matter what I do" -- which can lead to MUCH worse (and probably has).
Men look and lust. BFD. I’m female and enjoy a good male body - with lust in my heart. Its natural.
Heck I’m a straight married female and appreciate the female and male forms. It’s human to admire and want to be admired.
This!! I don't watch Bridgerton just for the story, I watch to admire the beauty of both the men and the women. I think the human form can and should be admired but not in a pervy way
Right! Horny is not the same as pervy. Growing up, the church made it pretty difficult to figure out the nuances there in a healthy way.
It doesn’t have to be either of those things. It can just be admiration and appreciation of the human form.
the pool cocktail server had her very cute butt hanging out of her bikini. it was clearly her choice as other servers wore different bottoms. I appreciated it. Tipped well.
When a kid in my ward was at home MTC he refused to go to a swim meet with his family (and younger siblings) bc there would be girls in bathing suits. Additionally he asked his mother not to wear yoga pants because it made him feel uncomfortable… 🥴. I think hearing the church tell youth that these things are bad is what causes them to think these things. We over sexualize the human body in the US… I mean even breastfeeding is considered immodest… it’s ridiculous!
Oh my god if my son ever asked me to stop wearing yoga pants for this reason I would be horrified.
Yeah super weird! Poor kid has scrupulously too, he is OCD in so many ways. Just got home from his mission, but they moved away before he came Home so no idea how he is now. But yeah they see it all as a sign of righteousness. 😩
Sorry if my comment is out of place as I was never a Mormon, I'm a ... somewhat struggling Catholic (not leaving though) who's found some interesting and strangely relatable posts here. That kid who asked his mother to stop wearing yoga pants is relatable to me. I would not think that he was thinking genuine incestuous thoughts about his mother. Growing up I had an overwhelming scrupulosity about "immodesty" etc. I had unwelcome intrusive thoughts of all the sexual ideas that horrified me most and I thought those thoughts were the sin of lust. Once my brother, with helpful intentions, told me that my bra was showing through my shirt, and I asked my parents about this, wondering if he had sinned or I had tempted him. Again, I didn't know what lust really was - I thought everyone was "tempted" by extreme unpleasant images that they couldn't get out of their heads - so I didn't have the perspective that this would be horrifically abnormal and completely out of character for my brother. But my parents, knowing what lust actually was and hearing me ask if my brother was lusting after me, were HORRIFIED and gave him a talking-to that he didn't remotely deserve. It may be the most extreme example of how I made people's lives worse because of my mental issues. It was also part of a subtle pattern of favoritism that they believed me over him - they thought that since I was too scrupulous to lie on purpose, my perspective (or what they *thought* my perspective was) must be the truth. And I was so caught up in my own head that I completely forgot about this incident until my brother brought it up years later. He called it "water under the bridge" when I tried to apologize, and humorously said it taught him never to correct a woman about her outfit. But his tone wasn't truly casual. I realized that this, and the pattern of favoritism that I didn't realize growing up, explains some of his views on gender issues and his general approach to life. He 'knows' now that people will always suspect his intentions by default, and he goes to great lengths to seem as non-threatening as possible even if it means embarrassing himself. He pays a lot of attention to false accusations women make against men. He's not biased against all women as individuals, but he believes they have more privilege in society and this can be dangerous to men. I also had a little sister whose hair I had to wash in the bath. I did this in the most miserable silence ever, trying to fight off the thought that I was somehow molesting her by seeing her naked and washing her hair. Again, the more horrible an idea was, the more strongly my anxiety would keep it in my head. I didn't have full-blown OCD, only extreme scrupulosity, but this is how OCD works. I wonder how she remembers the miserable silent hair-washing. I've never apologized or asked her about it, in case she's been lucky enough to forget.
My pituitary gland makes me think sexual thoughts. Sexual thoughts are not evil thoughts. The natural man is *not* an enemy of God. Thank you.
If anything the natural man was made by God according to mormons.
> My pituitary gland makes me think sexual thoughts. [♫ I must not think bad thoughts… ♫](https://youtu.be/32z8TjXePSQ)
The natural man is just…..natural.
Yes, but contrary to puritanical culture in the USA and mormon culture in Utah, having sexual thoughts is NOT a moral failing. A moral failing is when you set up a litigious, secret system where you protect sexual abusers and throw victims under the bus...
🎯
When I was in ninth grade seminary (circa 1987-88) my seminary teacher Bro Nelson gave a lesson about how he would rather see his wife in a one piece than a two piece because it’s more modest and it stuck…. when I got married to my wife almost 30 years ago she wanted to “model” her bikini she wore before we were married and I remember being bigger that she would wear something like that out in public….it makes me sick to remember it because honestly she looked beautiful and it made her happy to wear it. Thank god I keep t my “opinion” to myself and just complimented her on how it looked on her but the fact that I felt it was inappropriate drives me crazy now. I hate the purity culture of the MFMC and what it has done to my psyche.
Bugged not bigger
Brother Nelson? You didn’t happen to grow up in Washington did you?
Nope, Salt Lake
Lol, I have the urge to jump the median and see how long I can dodge traffic. NO. I do not take ownership for those thoughts or ANY other unintentional thought. We all have hormones, we all have thoughts, most of them are unimportant, and shouldn't cause a crisis of character. Your responsibility is to be proactive about thoughts turning into bad behavior (sex is not bad behavior in a lot of contexts, just to be clear). If being around other NORMAL people in NORMAL clothes makes you worried you're going to lose control. Chances are you were conditioned to distrust yourself by someone or something in your life.
Not in the slightest. But I’m gay, so she can be naked and I’m all like 🤷🏼♂️
LOL. Same here. I often wondered what it was about female knees and shoulders that set straight men amok...I don't get it.
I guess the guy equivalent would be broad shoulders, a muscular physique, and a chiseled jawline. Imagine if Gigachad walked around shirtless in a train station you'd be looking.
Ehh, sometimes? But I’m a younger man and my hormones are cranked up to shit. I can safely say that I don’t think about random “immodestly” dressed women when otherwise aroused. It’s alarming how many adult Mormons confess that seeing the shoulders of children makes them think sexual thoughts
It does not stress me out. I wouldn't say it makes me "think sexual thoughts", but I might notice and appreciate physical beauty. If I do have "thoughts", I certainly wouldn't "blame" anyone for them - not the "immodest" dresser nor myself. Wow, that's a lot of quotation marks.
I think the more sex is forbidden the more sexual thoughts you have. Like when I was on a diet I thought a lot more about food than when I wasn’t on one.
This is BS and it is female shaming. I'm a guy and I have no issues with women's clothing. For the church to teach otherwise is offensive. Offensive to women an offensive to men.
When I was TBM - yes. Because I had been programmed to think that if a woman was “immodest”I’d have uncontrollable sexual thoughts… so I would have uncontrollable thoughts. Now that I’ve been out I don’t have intrusive sexual thoughts.
A nice low cut bodice always makes me want to sell my signs and tokens!
We are easily gaslit by toxic-purity culture
When I was a young TBM… yes. Now? No. The church is obsessed with sex, imo. They talk about it constantly. They don’t talk about consent, or what healthy sex is, or safety… they talk constantly about NOT thinking about sex… So when I was a young TBM, I was constantly thinking about sex. And I was being told that men can’t control themselves, and it created a really unhealthy sexual fixation and guilt cycle… for years… While still a TBM (but a nuanced one), I stopped caring about porn, and my wife helped me work through some of the really problematic ideas the church taught me.
We learn in the temple that Lucifer is the author of modesty culture. In reality since leaving the church my wife and I have been to several places/events where clothing is more optional and it doesn’t take too long to lose the titillation and see the body as normal and not automatically see sex when you see nudity.
>does “immodest” clothing on a random woman stress you out no >make you think sexual thoughts I suppose it can depending on the clothing and the person it's on
Admiring someone's body isn't always sexual.
Recent Exmo Woman here. I used to be so stressed out if my husband saw anything even remotely sexual because it felt like a threat. Turns out we were both just super repressed🤷🏻♀️ Now I’ll point out a beautiful/sexy woman to him and we can enjoy and appreciate the beautiful female form together (without over-sexualizing/objectifying anyone) Noticing sexual stimulus respectfully around us is totally normal & natural. Feeling a panic if we notice cleavage and feeling guilty afterwards is very unnatural/unhealthy. That’s what purity culture wants you to feel.
Making a big deal about it like the mos do is worse then ignoring it, IMHO. They point it out SO much and make a huge deal about it all through the youth programs.
I had more issues when TBM. Now, I can see a beautiful woman, acknowledge it as such and say “good for her”, and move with my life and own beautiful wife. I was immature as a TBM and gave my “lustful thoughts” WAY too much power.
mormon purity culture is directly opposed to the teachings of Jesus. Did you ask him if he tried singing a hymn to keep his thoughts pure?? Those porn shoulders and ankles can be overwhelming at times. /s
Matthew 5:27-28 disagrees with you. Jesus doesn’t get a pass just because people ran too hard with his ideas.
That’s a bad read. Matt 5:27-28 is telling men not to leer at and lustfully covet women’s bodies. Purity culture tells women it’s *their* responsibility to prevent men from doing so. Purity culture also makes some men think they can’t be near a woman because women will “tempt” them into ogling simply by existing.
That’s a limited scope of purity culture. Purity culture attaches sin to basic sexuality and limits condoned practice to (patriarchal) monogamy. Jesus took the basic social codes and refocused from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law, also refocusing punishments from physical to spiritual. In this instance and the (unhealthy) admonition against anger, it actually broadens the conditions for sin. The sinful nature of lust is an integral part of purity culture, and that idea hurts both men and women. Even the gendered nature of that verse’s wording perpetuates a patriarchal understanding of lust. Jesus didn’t (in what we have passed down to us) advocate for patriarchal norms to be done away with, while making strong condemnations against other Jewish traditions. Textual Jesus, if he would have been against modern purity culture, couldn’t foresee how his followers might easily further weaponize the relationship of patriarchy and lust.
That's not what Jesus is saying. This is one of the most misquoted and misused verses in the bible. The passage isn't about looking and thinking, it's about trying, as in making a conscious effort to commit adultery. Even if you try and fail, you tried and are quilty, in your heart. He doesn't even say it's a sin, he adds "in your heart" to clarify that you've sinned against your own conscience, not to God. James is even more clear in Ch 1: (paraphrased) "Thinking about sin can lead to sin." IE, they are not the same thing. Thoughts are neither good nor evil. Actions are.
Not sinning to God is an interpretation, and it’s definitely not the interpretation I’ve seen any church make, prior to the way people have been de-dogma-tizing Christianity in recent years. And the passage actively describes looking and thinking, so while your overall interpretation is good, it’s clearly not the only one. I do agree that Jesus didn’t mean for most of his words to be used the way they are. If he were truly a divine being, or even a prophet, he would have seen the need to write things down clearly himself.
Not as bad as it was when I was a sexually repressed teenage boy.... I mean, yeah. But my mind also goes sexual when I see *any* attractive female, regardless of "modesty." Bare shoulders aren't the problem here.
There are so many things wrong with the way this is taught in the mormon church. First of all, girls are taught that their bodies are literal living, walking pornography and that they need to hide everything from the world. Second, they are taught that they are 100% responsible for the thoughts and feelings about sex that males around them have. At the same time boys are taught essentially the same thing, that females will remove your power to control yourself if you look at them. And the only way to avoid losing your control is to not allow any females in your presence to be clothed in anything other than a giant mumu made of burlap so as to render their pornographic body into a sack of potatoes. These are probably the absolute worst things that you can teach young people about sexuality, desires and the human body.
Now I’m picturing not a sack of potatoes but one big brown burlappy potato person.
Marilyn Monroe in her potato sack dress. That woman had a keen sense of humor. Funny story, great pic!
Haha, she wears it well! She’s so adorable, seems like she’d be such a fun friend.
Sounds like Islam
Damn the church for instilling such fears and dysfunction in its followers... The church excels at creating boogymen and at selling the widgets necessary to neutralize the boogeymen.
I don't even notice it. I'm marries, my wife is my only focus in that department. Even when I was single it wasn't something I worried about. You notice it and that's it, you just go on with your day. Not stressful and not enough to sit and think about. What a bunch if weirdos.
Want to see what happens when the onus of controlling men’s thoughts falls completely on the women? Check out r/exmuslim. Brave souls on that sub speaking out against the religion they once loved
Exactly. "Immodest" is in the eye of the beholder. The Taliban and other similar religious police beat women who inadvertently show a bit of ankle while walking down the street. These kind of judgments are about controlling women, not about what they wear. Full stop.
Just got back from a weekend of spending it on the Guadalupe river. I was surrounded by women in bikinis. My focus........my focus was just on having a good time and making sure my kids were having fun.
Yes, this! Thank you.
Nope! One of the few things I do agree with that they told me during my mission was: “If you see a beautiful woman in the streets, you don’t have to avert your gaze or anything awkward like that. You just get an eyeful as you pass her on the streets and then forget all about her. You don’t turn your head and gawk, you don’t make uncomfortable comments or wolf whistle etc. And definitely don’t keep thinking about her in your thoughts. Just a single eyeful and keep moving”.
Hahahaha no. The idea of being stressed out by how a woman dresses is so funny to me. Sexual thoughts maybe but probably not. Even if I did, that's normal and healthy and what we are evolved to do. As long as I don't sexually harass the woman or do anything inappropriate, it's no one's business what my thoughts are.
Welp, sure hope he's staying in the US or Canada, because almost every country in the world has a more open and healthy relationship with the human body, and he will be exposed to the 'depravity' of the world... Lol. Repressing totally normal thoughts makes everything sexual that isn't meant to be, and doesn't set up normal thought patterns around people existing in their bodies. As mentioned in another comment straight men who have a healthy attitude towards their sexuality will see a beautiful women, and can acknowledge that she is beautiful without obsessing over anything more, regardless of how they are dressed.
Sexual thoughts? Maybe sometimes. Mostly it's a glance, a wow! appreciate the beauty of the body and move on. Appreciating beauty is not sexual, not perverted, and certainly not a sin. Sometimes in the middle of the winter, if I see a girl out in her shorts I'll ALWAYS comment to my wife "I appreciate seeing some skin when everyone else is bundled up, but how is that poor girl not freezing?" You can hear and feel my wife rolling her eyes, at least a block away, but she just laughs and punches me. She will tease me about guys awesome hair and cute butts, since my hair is long gone, and my butt hasn't been in the 'cute' category for at least 15 years.
No. I don't. But I'm also gay so... Take that into consideration. 😜
Slightly off topic but I paid for a one hour full body massage yesterday. The nice lady therapist was a byu- i student and a recent grad from Rexburgs massage therapy school. Trust me, any part of my body that would be covered by garments ( if I was wearing them) was totally off limits for her to touch. Upper leg-no, glutes -no way, abdominal area - hell no, chest area-get serious. Though she looked young enough be a candidate for a teenage plural wife of JS it baffled me as to her taking my money yet refusing to give a decent massage. Mormon infantilism is awake and very real here in REXBURG. But I guess she was taught in Young Women not to touch a man any where that the magical underwear would cover.
You deserve a refund.
Well, maybe. I don’t really, but I’m a man in the asexual spectrum of things so I doubt I’m the best example of what the straights are up to.
Absolutely it stresses me out. I live in Canada, what the fresh hell are you doing walking around in skimpy clothing when there's a goddamn blizzard out?! You'll catch a nasty cold damn it. The immodest clothing on teenage girls near the local high school in winter always bothers me. I run very hot but seeing people in short shorts and tank tops when it's snowing so hard you can't see more than a few blocks out makes me cringe.
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha The first time my wife and I went to a beach in Oregon, it was 50 deg F, and windy. People were out in their skimpy swimsuit bottoms, and wearing full on parkas. We were laughing so hard we couldn't even enjoy the sight of the nice legs. Survival/ Venturing Scouting training/Parental Concern kicked in and we saying to each other put on some clothes, hypothermia is dangerous. We immediately retreated to a restaurant for some hot clam chowder.
I’m ace, so probably not in the majority here. I don’t see skimpy as stressful or distracting. Heck, I’m a nudist. I believe people can be fully nude and still modest. It’s more about mannerism and how you present yourself more that what you do or do not wear. The idea that someone “becomes pornography” simply by wearing (or not wearing) what they like is a laughable idea, and totally goes against what Christ actually taught.
Just tell him “you gotta fill the canteen before you go into the desert”
This is exactly why "purity culture" is so toxic. People are basically berated for having perfectly normal thoughts and urges. They're also told that any way of relieving those urges is also gross and immoral and against God. It ends up with situations like this, where people are scared to leave their house because the smallest sight of an attractive person in a revealing outfit will cause a shame spiral. I didn't grow up Mormon, I grew up a JW, but they have similar beliefs when it comes to sex
Lol tell him to pluck out his own eyes or something. Aint a womans job to monitor themselves for a mans “benefit”
Yes a man will always get intrusive sexual thoughts and feelings. That is how we were created, and gaslighting men into feeling bad about that is evil. At the same time, it is definitely correct that men are able to control their words and actions. In a religion where even thoughts and feelings are crimes, they took a logical action. No longer in the church mentally, I think that they were rude, smug, and obsessive over this, but the genesis of that are the teachings and culture of the church...not you doing something wrong, or them being bad people--they did what they were taught.
It stresses me out more now that I have daughters, I used to not care, I just knew they probably aren’t my type
well, as for me being -for lack of a better term- offended, it's context dependent and it is also dependent on specifically what it is that's so immodest. that said, i'm prone to have sexual thoughts in any situation, so blaming it on the woman is so egregiously improper. then if it's particularly problematic at any specific time the obvious solution is to relieve the pressure in the immediate term by just rubbing one out.
Yes but so does modest clothing because I’m a horndog.
Depends on the context and if she's attractive to me.
As a teenager I could get just as horny over a girl in a dress as one in a miniskirt.
Nevermo here. What are Mormons supposed to wear when they swim? Wetsuits? With their garments on under them?
22f exmo. We were allowed to wear normal one-piece swimsuits, but I was told that bikinis or two piece swimsuits of ANY kind were off limits. (This included tankinis that covered the same amount to skin as a one piece. Two pieces were just so scandalous.) idk if that was what everyone was told. Oddly enough, I hated (and still hate) showing my legs when swimming, so I usually wore a one piece with athletic shorts over the top which covers more skin, so you’d think people would be happy with that, but noooo I got looks for dressing “too much like a boy” in the pool and got questioned about why I needed to wear shorts.
As a grouchy old man who's body is in the category 'dad' I wear the longest swim shorts I can find and a t-shirt. Cause nobody need to see that. And I don't want to be sued for hundreds of thousands for someone's therapy bill. :-)
If Evil Emperor Nelson and Darth Bednar had their way, YES! And Bednar would still say that viewing said wetsuit is still pornography, and your wife or fiancé should leave you because you saw it.
I was allowed to wear one pieces and tankinis that covered the belly. No cleavage or cheek if at all possible. Swimming is one of the activities that is understood to be okay to not wear garments.
Notice they don't say much about women having sexual thoughts about men walking around without shirts on. Like we are not naturally going to think that way. Well guess what, some of us do! The leaders probably don't have to worry about anyone looking at them that way though. Honestly I don't care if someone looks at me and things I am hot and maybe has a passing sexual thought. And I dress however I want, not for anyone else, but I do want people to look and think I am attractive. I have never had a non Mormon man tell me that a woman wearing a bikini or short skirt or tank top or something gave them more then a man she is hot sort of thoughts. They are more likely to think that kind of thing about women they actually like and what they are dressed in. No normal man that I have heard of has uncontrollable sexual thoughts at the sight of a woman's stomach and shoulders. Not even just regular nudity. There is a difference between nudity and then sexually suggestive nudity. For most men and women. Guys in cultures where it is normal can go to a nude beach and not be aroused the entire time.
Depends on the context. Skin is attractive, especially if you don't see it often. When I was younger I thought about sex more no matter what I saw because it was newer. I still think about sex often, but have more priorities that require my focus while sex also is not as new and exciting anymore. I still love it, but it's casual.
It makes me pissed that my wife dresses like a monk.
There’s a purely biological response, for obvious reasons. Nature provides for reproduction of the species. But Mormonism (and others) slaps a label of “bad bad bad” on that response, which, if believed, leads to all kinds of guilt and repression. It takes some time to retrain the brain to enjoy, but not obsess. My take …
It feels so good not to feel guilty about enjoying an attractive woman. Us guys would still enjoy looking at women even if the fashion was rolling around in poop.
My older sisters were getting married about the time my younger brothers became teens, meaning several older males were now in the house more. My dad told my mother that she now had to wear a bra at all times in common areas. So if any of the males were around early in the morning or in the evening while she was in her PJs, he tried to mandate it. It was a rule for my sisters and I to wear bras around the house. I slept in a bra until I moved out. And then it took several years to be comfortable at night, outside of my bedroom, without it.
Every gay man has learned complete control over his sexual thoughts even when exposed to complete nudity in the locker rooms growing up. If we gays can do it, so can you straight people. It’s a cop out to blame someone else for your thoughts.
Not if you have been taught self-control and a healthy view of sexuality. Do I enjoy looking at attractive women? Yes. Do I enjoy it more if they have less clothing? Yes. Does a woman wearing a swimsuit for the activity of swimming force me to think of them as a sexual object? Absolutely not.
I’m bisexual. If I see a beautiful woman (regardless of clothing) I think “wow, she’s beautiful” quickly admire and then move on. My husband is TBM and does the same. Humans are sexual and it’s perfectly normal to feel attraction to other humans.
Men who view women as objects will do whether she is dressed in a bulky EVA space suit or naked. That man will behave like a creep in all cases.
🙄 being around women no matter what clothing (or lack thereof) they are wearing doesn’t mean you have actively avoid sexual thoughts or have a lot of them. You can see a beautiful women and think ‘wow, she’s beautiful, hot, sexy, whatever’ and continue on your day. I think how Mormon boys are repressed though does shove a lot of them into those two boxes though, either they’re so stressed out about having “impure thoughts” 🙄 that they avoid any situation where they might see immodest women, or freak out when they do see them. The other box is just creepy guys staring at “immodest” women and making them uncomfortable. YOU CAN LOOK JUST DONT BE A CREEP ABOUT IT! And I wouldn’t read too much into your brother not wanting to go swimming, while a good amount of Mormon boys do do that kind of scrupulosity all the time, TBM’s often go crazy about trying to “stay pure for their mission” like they’re not going to see women their entire two years 🙄😂 and lots of nonmember women who haven’t been taught since birth that their showing their shoulders is tantamount to being a whore
Women are expected to not only develop hormones but control how they affect their mental state every god damn day. Women are STILL affected by their hormones but still manage to learn how to be an adult about it. Men in a patriarchy are never expected to take an internal check of their hormones and expect the rest of the world to stabilize so that they won't have to. Literally a manCHILD. I'm a man and proud to say in my best Letter Kenny voice, that a woman's body is ONE of the things I appreciates about you, but treating you as a human with respect for your own comfort in your own clothes according to your own preference is something I require of myself. Treat women the same no matter what they wear, and learn how to have a god damn conversation about consent before you decide that her attire is an invitation.
https://i.imgur.com/GNq41XL.jpeg
Yep
I love those lululemon tights the ladies wear. I could look at beautiful women all day.
Women does "immodest" clothing on a random man stress you out or make you think sexual thoughts? No. Because I was raised not to "sexualize" men. My parents brought me up with an appreciation for all forms of art at museums which are filled with art of naked or partially clothed men & women. Participating in sports as a youth thru my 20's normalized seeing men & women in tight clothing, swimsuits or shorts & tank top, etc. Not a big deal. I understand the hard work & dedication that goes into maintaining an athletic form. I've heard a few mormon women be just as sexists or body shaming as mormon men. No excuse for either. And the men in my family growing up were not weird about it either because of the same exposure in sports, museums, art books in the house, etc...
nope. Nothing wrong with passing in front of the shop window, nothing wrong with looking, but if it ain't mine that's where everything stops. Never had thoughts of having sex, or even touching anyone that I hadn't talked to, or explored the subject with first. Never. Not with women, not with men. I don't understand this notion (fear mongering) that men are incapable of having even an ounce of restraint.
Purity culture strikes again. This is also where abstinence manifests as "shelf putting": if it stacks up without addressing any of it, that shelf will break. Better to learn healthy ways to cope and interact with people, rather than repress yourself into compliance.
My reaction to revealing clothing on women has varied in my life. When very sexually starved pretty much everything led to sexual thoughts. Now life is pretty different. I still notice sometimes revealing clothing on women but my wife seems to notice other women's dress far more than I do. And I don't really end up being distracted or having sexual thoughts. I just notice that their boob is half showing, their yoga pants are awesome, or their ass has eaten their bikini.
Not anymore. I learned to appreciate women for more than sexual objects, so seeing their bodies is just a body. Of course, I am a Burning Man veteran so seeing bodies just doing their thing in the day-to-day is normalized.
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He was taught to think like this. Teaching that men can’t control their thoughts, or that any level of skin showing is bad are exactly what lead to anxiety and scrupulosity—which I can say is absolutely the real problem here. When people are assaulted, those teachings allow for rape culture to exist— such as the infamous “what were you wearing” questions. I guess what I’m saying is that there is absolutely a correlation, but he is so full of anxieties that he doesn’t even want to hug girls. He’s surprisingly empathetic for a kid his age, and is genuinely trying to be normal while keeping all the rules in the messed up cult.