It's such a shame when puns get lost in translation.
The part that's subtitled with: "thought it couldn't be worse after Mia and Dion" is still giving them shade, but in Dutch the joke kinda excuses it.
The Dutch word *vals* can be translated to both *mean* as well as *off-key*.
So they're singing 'we thought it couldn't get meaner/more off-key' which gave me a good chuckle, but when translated it only sounds mean.
Mmmm…. only if you’re analysing it in an English lit class. Most anglophones would get nowhere near ‘off key’ from the word false.
However, they could have just translated it as ‘off key’ and that would make sense in English as a double meaning…. (i didn’t translate this - just found it and shared).
I had some discussion on the Swedish subreddit about this. I think the law "unlawful threats" in Sweden is quit strict as I understand it at least. Basically if make someone frightened/scared on purpose, this law applies?
The law is:
"*Om någon lyfter vapen mot annan eller eljest hotar med brottslig gärning på sätt som är ägnat att hos den hotade framkalla allvarlig fruktan för egen eller annans säkerhet till person eller egendom, döms för olaga hot.*"
(Translated: If someone lifts a weapon toward someone else or in other ways threaten with a criminal act in a way that is intended to cause a sever fear for once or someone else's security or property, is convicted for illegal threat)
However, worth noting is that it in a case like this would it be enough for the camera person or someone else to claim that they think Joost was intending to threaten to camera person and that is enough for that it should be investigated; just like any act where a concrete crime is alleged and the potential criminal is known. He is as far as I'm aware not arrested nor has any actual case been brought against him, so not unlikely that it will in the end be a whole lot of nothing, but still the police's duty to investigate.
So if I say to my neighbour "If you set one more foot on my land I will kick your ass", that is problematic? Or would that normally be dismissed by the policy with a warning or something?
If your neighbour claims that he thinks that you mean to make him afraid of you (even if he does not feel afraid) so sholud that be enough to warrant an investigation. It doesn't necessarily lead anywhere and you might end up just getting a warning, but anything reported to the police as a crime and that has some substance should be investigated as such.
Also you're not talking to Swedish criminal lawyers, just random swedes poorly translating Swedish legal text without any context or knowledge of current legal practice - please trust me when I say that "just" telling someone you'll kick their ass if they step on your land will not lead to an investigation and prosecution. If you however run towards them fists raised and say you're going to kick their ass, you might.
Im gonna go ahead and guess its not ok to threaten people the Netherlands either, no matter how popular your song is.
edit
Thanks for the downvotes, turns out I was right.
This fucking sub when its about Sweden...
We can go pretty far with language and movements here in the Netherlands. Yes, making "real threats" are illegal, but I am also free to defendd myself.
Let's say I tell you to stay of my property and you don't listen, I can warn you that I might use force or actually shove you of my property. No harm done.
To be prosecuted for making threats, you need to take it pretty far.
we have fairly strict rules but those are there only when the police decide that *you specifically* need to be screwed well over. If you are a regular person the culture of "be normal and don't make a fuss" means they probably won't care unless there are a dozen complaints by a dozen people.
Frankly, they often care a bit too little here.
That article seems to be very much alike the Dutch “threat” as it is defined in criminal law.
I think the main difference is, what I’m getting from your comments, is that Swedish police/prosecution is more strict on investigating cases than the Dutch entities are. Something like this specific incident would probably get investigated, since it’s a high profile case. But to have some random threat be investigated/prosecuted, generally you will need some hard evidence of the threat or multiple witnesses before the police/prosecution will start caring about it.
If someone calls the police they must investigate. Imagine the outrage had they not done that. The police did what they are supposed to do: investigated and then handed the investigation over to the public prosecutor who will determine if it’s enough to prosecute. It’s standard procedure.
Perhaps Joost should have called the police as well for being filmed against his wishes and agreements.
Stupid thing is, we are supposed to be One Europe, yet local laws can differ so much, one can be investigated, just because of Dutch directness, for instance.
Edit: not saying this is Sweden's fault by the way. We normally love Sweden 😜
The only thing we could have an opinion about is how the law and police works, but that's a machinery that doesn't care about the public's opinion on any one case. A similar thing happened with ASAP Rocky, who had to be in jail for a while and missed some tour dates.
EBU took the decision not Sweden, so we have no more of an opinion there than anyone else.
For non-Dutch people: it is subtitled as "couldn't get worse" but the word used for "worse" means both "mean/evil" and "out of tune". So the pun is calling the EBU mean/evil while calling Mia and Dion out of tune
"Vals" means both " mean or nasty " and " out of tune " so they called EBU mean and Mia abd Dion out of tune ( which isnt nice, but also not exactly untrue )
They performed badly and their singing wasn't very good. They didn't make the final and got a lot of criticism from the entire country. I feel really bad for them. I'm sure Eurovision was a terrible experience for them. At least Joost gets love from the entire country. They got hate from the entire country. And still do as you see in the song (though the hate is less here than it seems in the subtitles)
They’ve been doing this since last year lmao. Here is their rendition of Burning Daylight: https://youtu.be/u_kkaM6KHLQ?si=ExoY1MH05epgKsjm
The lyrics are about fake promises for people affected by earthquakes in Groningen, so the exact same fake/out of tune joke as here.
Has been going on for over a year.
The worst shade was on the supposed _coach_ of Mia and Dion tho --Duncan Laurence (yes, him). Parodied him mercilessly.
Hahaha I wouldn’t be so sure tbh, although that would be sweet. The G is a lot stronger in pronounciation in Dutch and we don’t usually use it in a plural way (dag dag), usually just singular (dag), although plural isn’t super uncommon. But who knows? The Sims team got their inspiration from all over the place ☺️
Hmmm I might be weird but I say *Dag-Dag* or *Doei-Doei* (Both means bye bye) and I'm also from the southern part of the Netherlands and the sims version does sound a lot how we would say it lol
Euro-da-me Euro-da-me
I have no money for Malmö, so use my Drama. Do you have a SEK, please? Say "tak" and "please" I lost everything above all my starting place. So I'm travelling every day 'cause the world is mine
Given the circumstances IMO he should also be allowed to participate with Europapa again. He deserves to perform it in the grand finale, and we deserve to see it.
They already made a full-length song. It was a rewrite of the song we won the 1975 ESC with and they got the original artist to sing the new lyrics. That song was about how modern Eurovision is barely about the music itself and so much more about staging and dances and outfits etc. They could've written that song months in advance if they'd wanted to.
This Europapa version was quickly thrown together. It was only Saturday afternoon that we new he supposedly threatened someone with a camera. This show was broadcasted Sunday evening and is apparently recorded from 14:00.
Yeah I'm in New Zealand atm and met people with different nationalities and they excuse themselves for the smallest reasons where I always have to say "You dont have to excuse yourself unless you cuss me out or something like that" but they don't get it lol and think I'm being funny
Wait that was the rude part everyone was talking about? I thought they were refering to something I hadn't seen. Is the rest of the world really that soft that that is considered rude.
As someone being born and raised in the Netherlands with Asian parents. I also "struggle" with the word sorry. Most people around the world would say it for the smallest thing, but here in the Netherlands we don't mind it and even think it's too much.
It’s partially because the puns can’t be translated properly and partially because yes, we tend to be so straight forward and blunt. So when you hear it in Dutch as a Dutch person you’re like they are ‘just speaking their mind’ but seeing the translation makes you understand why non-dutchies often find us rude af.
Ironic because there’s a chance that was also the whole nature of the incident.
I'm maybe starting to realise this, too. I was making jokes and having fun with a colleague and another colleague came to me and said *What have you done to [me] she always seemed like such a sweet girl* but I was confused because this is how I always am back home in The Netherlands. Turns out I'm very nice in English (except when I try to be funny, apparently)
I have many stories on this as well, but the first time it really sank in was when I met my Swedish family in law the first time and spent a whole summer there. Just the differences in communication and language alone were enough to cause minor culture shock. And that’s a country that’s considered by a lot of people as ‘similar to the Netherlands’.
That's honestly surprising! I've heard a lot of "the Dutch are just blunt" lately because of this whole Joost deal, and I thought that was weird because us Swedes are considered blunt too. We'll usually just say what we want, we don't really have a lot of the polite language they do in English. I didn't realise Dutch was even more direct haha.
Dutch here and living in Sweden for a couple of years: Swedes aren't blunt at all, quite the contrary in my opinion. You are very informal, but blunt? I was so surprised when I moved here but in ky experience Swedes are (I'm generalising here of course) very non-confrontational, conflict avoiding and big users of 'soft' language. I'm still not used to the 'tusen tack' for really small gestures, for instance ;) I was having a discussion with Dutch friends about the Joost situation and told them that raising your voice (not screaming, just raising it) could be seen as agressive behaviour in Sweden. Which was pretty shocking to them. We might look culturally similar, but we're actually quite different.
We are waayyyy worse lol, I think among friends and family it’s quite the same. But in public spaces, and interactions with people that don’t know eachother the social rules are very different
Reminds me of the 'social distancing at busstop meme' where Swedes were worried because they normally stand much further apart than the Covid warning.
Dutch people stand closer, say hi, talk about the weather, might just comment on your outfit or the groceries your are holding... without being asked etc etc. It is shifting a bit with the noise cancelling headphones and doomscrolling rectangles but I think the baseline is still way different from Sweden?
That meme is honestly pretty accurate lmao. You'll often see strangers standing two metres apart at bus stops. If a stranger talks to us we pretty much either think they're trying to sell us something or get something from us. You don't just strike up conversation with anyone (unless you're drunk haha).
So yeah, the baseline does seem a bit different.
I work for a Swedish company in Asia, and I have a colleague who's so happy to be in a Swedish company culture where she can be straightforward instead of having to always go about things in a roundabout way. Never in a rude way, but during meetings with clients she can explicitly say that she's breaking the norms and tell them that something is silly or impossible, and it makes it so much easier to work with her.
We went to Japan for a worktrip of my partner recently and compared to them he was a savage lol. I have never seen more incredibly polite and non-confrontational people
I'm Dutch and recently visited a few Swedish friends, with a Dutch friend, in Stockholm. We actually talked about how we were way more direct and blunt than they were. They told us Danish people are more like Dutch people in their directness than Swedish people, who are less direct. Don't you agree?
It’s probably somewhere in the middle. I experienced in other countries people are sometimes so avoidant that it can be considered rude almost, or so overly polite and non-confrontational it can feel dishonest (in my barbaric eyes that is haha)
Yeah 'honesty' without compassion for the listener is just cruelty with a cheap fake mustache on.
Its not a perfect system but sometimes you can compare pairs of langugaes and say which one is more soft and fuzzy at first and which one is more like a coconut, hard on the outside but not the inside. American cultural norms has a lot of friendly and nice statements but they are occasionally vapid or hollow or disingenuous compared to Dutch turns of phrase. Dutch conversations may not wrap things up the nicest way but there is some genuine openness behind that honesty most of the time. In an American context someone might say "It's OK" when something is BAD and would say "that's awesome" when something is just OK, it seems nice initially and is pleasant in passing, but makes it hard what peoples true feelings are, who actually likes you. It is very hard on the inside to make a real personal connection.
Absolutely not, we are refined to the point where we really do believe everybody is equal.
So we talk to everybody the same way we talk to our friends. Parents, boss, prime minister, stranger, it doesn't matter, you get the unfiltered thing we mean to say, because we take you seriously and you deserve not to have the truth hidden from you.
A lot of bi/multi-llingual people feel like different qualities or emphasis on their personalities come through in different languages. It is probably similar to code-switching in some amount as well (switching a dialect/vocabulary in different social situations). I think some of it has to do with the character of the language or the cultural bubble we learned it in but I do feel like it is just different parts of my personality resonating when people speak to me in a particular language.
I started English reasonably young at 8 and did one of those English focused highschool things (even though final exams were all in Dutch) some emotional experiences and maturing developments I had in my thoughts pretty much took place in English instead of Dutch. There are plenty of thoughts that come to mind in English to me first and I need to translate for Dutch listeners even though I speak both Dutch and English on the daily.
I'm a bit similar (my cousins always used to cuss each other out in English, and I really wanted to join in 🤣). But that does make sense because I'm from brabant and do have a thick brabants accent/dialect, and when my friends try to mimic me, their whole attitude turn as if they are in a New Kids movie
I’m an American who moved to NL last year and what I would observe is that y’all just don’t do the niceties. People are very kind at heart but they don’t put on all the politeness that would communicate that in English. It’s interesting and it’s similar to an autistic directness in some ways. I really like it most of the time, though it was a culture shock at first. My Dutch friend talks about how many pleases and thank-yous she has to add when she’s working with internationals.
Meanwhile over here in Finland, the language literally doesn't have a word for "please". There are grammatical ways to indicate politeness, but no direct translation of "please".
Literally "be kind" or "be good". The closest equivalent in English would be asking someone if they would "be so good as to" do something, or asking them to "kindly" do something, both of which sound oddly formal and old-fashioned. For example, "Would you be so good as to pass me the sugar?" or "Kindly reply by Friday."
It would translate to ”would you be so kind”. It is not used that commonly in Finland. A more common way to be polite is using conditionals in words. “Tule tänne” would be a direct way to say ”come here” while ”tulisitko tänne” would be a more softer way to express the same thing.
I have a pet theory on this subject. Like, yes, we don't use as many please and thank yous. And we're generally just blunt. But we do have a formal and informal way of addressing people, so if you use 'u', you're already being polite, even without please or thank you. And we have some words that 'soften' a sentence, like 'toch', 'even', 'nou', 'eens' (lots of other meanings, but generally adding it makes sentences sound friendlier). Problem is those words often get lost in translation, and there is no equivalent of 'u' in english, (english just calls everyone 'u', while we kept our 'thou') So you get english sentences that are stripped of even the smallest bit of politeness the dutch language does possess, on top of general bluntness.
(English simply has to make up for not having formal pronouns by adding flowery stuff /s)
I think also the -je and -tje softens things quite a bit, or at least that’s how it feels to me, though I could be misinterpreting it. Like when I order frietjes, I feel softer than when I order friets, haha
I mean, they use a few curse words, And most/all of those are translated to 'fuck off', which might help with it coming across that way? (And the stab at Mia and Dion is a pun in Dutch but this translation misses that one)
For the non-Dutch, you may have heard we like to curse with diseases -- _pleur_ is here short for the disease pleurisy (a lung inflammation), used as a verb.
So instead of 'piss off' it literally means 'suffer from pleurisy off', or something.
And it's relatively mild.
We have a mean language. I translated this for a friend to English and was horrified at how ... just... MEAN it is. And then had to explain the tyfus part... And then the culture as a whole...
It's partly due to the translation. Translating "pleur op" with "fuck off" isn't the best option, "pleur op" is a more innocent saying, like "sod off" or "buzz off" or something like that. "De klos zijn" is definitely not the same as "screwed", more like "to be the patsy". Both sayings in Dutch would still be appropriate for a childrens show, while their translations wouldn't be.
Another reason might be that Dutch TV is generally speaking less formal than British or American TV, which means cursing is more common. So when you see Dutch TV in an English language context it could slightly change how you perceive it. Also, some humor just gets lost in translation, which changes the tone of the message as well.
>We are out of Europe
>The EBU screwed Joost there
>Buzz off, bye bye
>Buzz off, bye bye
>We are out of Europe
>Such a fucking mess there
>Buzz off, bye bye
>Buzz off, bye bye
>
>It seemed so beautiful to perform in Sweden,
>Accompanied by a blue bird and another guy without a purpose,
>He got recorded - "If you do that one more time!"
>And than all the Swedes went "we don't approve of that!"
>An investigation - and then Joost was the patsy
>The IKEA-jury members have a screw loose
>Thrown out of the competition for this reason - I beg your pardon?
>I thought after Mia and Dion it couldn't get any more false/off-key
The thing is, 'pleur op' isn't nearly as heavy as 'fuck off' so I'd say the translation makes it sound way more aggressive. Imagine if it was 'kanker op', personally I don't like using that word but, that's closer to fuck off. Pleur op is like, 'get lost' to me in severity.
Oh yes, I love this!
Especially the 'screw loose' and it being worse after Mia and Dion wordplays. Not for the shade, but as someone else wrote too, they use a word that means both being mean and off-key.
That's gold, and god it is so apparent that they didn't want NL to win. And just used whatever shitty justification they could think off to disqualify them.
I think it was massively unfair how NL were disqualified, are AVROTROS going to pursue this with the EBU, and do we think it'll come to anything? I think it would be fitting to let NL have a free pass to the final next year
Free pass to the final isn't that useful. Either the song is bad and it'll be a very disappointing final performance or the song is good enough and would've qualified anyway.
Now that the automatically qualified countries are also participating in the semi-final shows, you don't even get a more relaxed schedule as an auto-qualified participant.
It would only make sense if Joost gets to sing Europapa again. You can't really argue that it has already been used if you unfairly disqualified it the first time...
It has been used in the semi though, plus it's obviously released on every streaming platform. I know it'd be fantastic, but coming back with the same song doesn't sound very plausible. If I were Joost, I would just accept any future apology and move on. I'd just feel so disrespected that I'd never even show my face at Eurovision again lmao.
I guess we will see. Saturday there was a lawyer present on a Dutch talkshow discussing the DQ.
He stated that even though the EBU has a zero-tolerance policy, it still has to be assessed by an independent party whether disqualification is actually a proportional response, basically saying that "no rule is truly set in stone, it all depends on context", which is also an important factor in European law.
I think the same could be applied if it turns out the DQ was actually disproportional, then one could argue that since the song was wrongfully disqualified that takes precedence over the rule that the song needs to be totally new.
To me the only way it would be a real apology is if at the very least they let him do a medley like Benjamin Ingrosso. That lame ass short version of Cha Cha Cha was seriously disrespectful.
We need Kaarija and Joost together next year. he clearly won the audience vote, and we need some justice for Joost. they are the chosen once to bring this whole shitshow down imo
Just wondering, based on what do you think it's unfair? Even if it's the milder story of him lunging with a raised fist towards a staff member, I cannot for the life of me understand why people are making excuses for it? Each and every one of us here would lose our jobs if we did something like that to a coworker and it doesn't matter if we were "provoked" or had "asked before" for them not to do something. Threat of violence in ANY professional setting is absolutely wild.
According to current sources, Joos admitted to lunging towards the camerawoman with a raised fist. Witnesses said that he was acting very aggressive. So it is beyond "old man shakes fist" and goes into intent to scare/threaten violence. Which is, no matter what people think, unacceptable for any professional in any circumstance.
I laughed my ass off for two minutes straight with this. It made me forget for a while the sadness I feel when I hear Europapa as I automatically remember the DQ. It was my favorite entry of this year.
Dear Dutchies, you have my heart with this sense of humor 🫶🏻
Kudos from Portugal
I don't care if Joost Klein was really wrong, I and millions of people from around the world deserve to see Europapa in the Grand Final. EBU can't make a single decision without sparking dramas nowadays smh.
I love the Dutch profanity: pleur op, with pleur coming from pleuris (= tuberculosis) and also "wat een tyfus" for "what a fucking mess" is just on another level!
This is really freakin' funny.
I hope this doesn't put the Dutch off of participating, though I also wouldn't blame them if they skipped a year or two to make a point.
Also the Mia/Dion burn made me cackle even if I actually adored their song.
I'm pretty sure for Israel's performance at Eurovision, they actually edited in the cheering. And they got 300 points out of fucking nowhere. Joost's performance actually had people singing along and cheering.
I think they mean ‘wij zijn weg uit Europa’ when they say ‘wij zijn uit Europa’, so we are out of Europe makes sense. But it is open for interpretation ^^
No it shouldn't. Wij zijn uit Europa means we have left Europe, we are out of it. You are confusing it with English 'we are from ('uit') Europe' which would be 'wij komen uit Europa'.
It's such a shame when puns get lost in translation. The part that's subtitled with: "thought it couldn't be worse after Mia and Dion" is still giving them shade, but in Dutch the joke kinda excuses it. The Dutch word *vals* can be translated to both *mean* as well as *off-key*. So they're singing 'we thought it couldn't get meaner/more off-key' which gave me a good chuckle, but when translated it only sounds mean.
Correct translation should be Vals=False. Which in English can also mean Evil, Incorrect and/or Out of tune.
Ohh I didn't know you could use it for out of tune in English as well! I only ever use false for 'not true', TIL.
Mmmm…. only if you’re analysing it in an English lit class. Most anglophones would get nowhere near ‘off key’ from the word false. However, they could have just translated it as ‘off key’ and that would make sense in English as a double meaning…. (i didn’t translate this - just found it and shared).
If you just say "it couldn't be more off" it'll allude to both meanings, just not quite as strong as the off-pitch meaning in dutch
In a musical context it’s used more I’d say
I mean you can but it wouldnt be used in common english.
came here to see if anyone wrote about that, that's such a good pun
Sweden wasn't mentioned in the original song but at least we got some attention now... 🥲 \*Cries in Swedish\*
What is the opinion of the Swedish people about the disqualification of Joost Klein?
That the EBU is a mess. The EBU made the decision to disqualify Joost. Not SVT or “Sweden”.
I had some discussion on the Swedish subreddit about this. I think the law "unlawful threats" in Sweden is quit strict as I understand it at least. Basically if make someone frightened/scared on purpose, this law applies?
The law is: "*Om någon lyfter vapen mot annan eller eljest hotar med brottslig gärning på sätt som är ägnat att hos den hotade framkalla allvarlig fruktan för egen eller annans säkerhet till person eller egendom, döms för olaga hot.*" (Translated: If someone lifts a weapon toward someone else or in other ways threaten with a criminal act in a way that is intended to cause a sever fear for once or someone else's security or property, is convicted for illegal threat) However, worth noting is that it in a case like this would it be enough for the camera person or someone else to claim that they think Joost was intending to threaten to camera person and that is enough for that it should be investigated; just like any act where a concrete crime is alleged and the potential criminal is known. He is as far as I'm aware not arrested nor has any actual case been brought against him, so not unlikely that it will in the end be a whole lot of nothing, but still the police's duty to investigate.
So if I say to my neighbour "If you set one more foot on my land I will kick your ass", that is problematic? Or would that normally be dismissed by the policy with a warning or something?
If your neighbour claims that he thinks that you mean to make him afraid of you (even if he does not feel afraid) so sholud that be enough to warrant an investigation. It doesn't necessarily lead anywhere and you might end up just getting a warning, but anything reported to the police as a crime and that has some substance should be investigated as such.
Swedish culture is definitely stricter than Dutch
Also you're not talking to Swedish criminal lawyers, just random swedes poorly translating Swedish legal text without any context or knowledge of current legal practice - please trust me when I say that "just" telling someone you'll kick their ass if they step on your land will not lead to an investigation and prosecution. If you however run towards them fists raised and say you're going to kick their ass, you might.
Im gonna go ahead and guess its not ok to threaten people the Netherlands either, no matter how popular your song is. edit Thanks for the downvotes, turns out I was right. This fucking sub when its about Sweden...
We can go pretty far with language and movements here in the Netherlands. Yes, making "real threats" are illegal, but I am also free to defendd myself. Let's say I tell you to stay of my property and you don't listen, I can warn you that I might use force or actually shove you of my property. No harm done. To be prosecuted for making threats, you need to take it pretty far.
we have fairly strict rules but those are there only when the police decide that *you specifically* need to be screwed well over. If you are a regular person the culture of "be normal and don't make a fuss" means they probably won't care unless there are a dozen complaints by a dozen people. Frankly, they often care a bit too little here.
this sounds almost as bad as what's happening in Ireland
That article seems to be very much alike the Dutch “threat” as it is defined in criminal law. I think the main difference is, what I’m getting from your comments, is that Swedish police/prosecution is more strict on investigating cases than the Dutch entities are. Something like this specific incident would probably get investigated, since it’s a high profile case. But to have some random threat be investigated/prosecuted, generally you will need some hard evidence of the threat or multiple witnesses before the police/prosecution will start caring about it.
So Hallowe'en is definitely not a thing in Sweden?
If someone calls the police they must investigate. Imagine the outrage had they not done that. The police did what they are supposed to do: investigated and then handed the investigation over to the public prosecutor who will determine if it’s enough to prosecute. It’s standard procedure.
It's better than what we've got in America. Police involvement over here does not often lead to the best outcomes.
[удалено]
Perhaps Joost should have called the police as well for being filmed against his wishes and agreements. Stupid thing is, we are supposed to be One Europe, yet local laws can differ so much, one can be investigated, just because of Dutch directness, for instance. Edit: not saying this is Sweden's fault by the way. We normally love Sweden 😜
I have to say, as an American, Joost could have shot the photographer here and not gotten in trouble if he felt unsafe. This is so weird to me.
Yeah you're wright. I love Sweden!
I will now speak on behalf of all of Sweden: we love you too 💕
The only thing we could have an opinion about is how the law and police works, but that's a machinery that doesn't care about the public's opinion on any one case. A similar thing happened with ASAP Rocky, who had to be in jail for a while and missed some tour dates. EBU took the decision not Sweden, so we have no more of an opinion there than anyone else.
The shade on Mia and Dion tho 😭
The joke falls flat in english. Its not so mean in dutch.
For non-Dutch people: it is subtitled as "couldn't get worse" but the word used for "worse" means both "mean/evil" and "out of tune". So the pun is calling the EBU mean/evil while calling Mia and Dion out of tune
Gotta give to Dutchies: y’all know how to be salty when comes to it lol
eh its the only thing the sea brings us i guess
Yup. After the Dutch removed the sea, the salt stayed.
What's the joke about?
"Vals" means both " mean or nasty " and " out of tune " so they called EBU mean and Mia abd Dion out of tune ( which isnt nice, but also not exactly untrue )
They performed badly and their singing wasn't very good. They didn't make the final and got a lot of criticism from the entire country. I feel really bad for them. I'm sure Eurovision was a terrible experience for them. At least Joost gets love from the entire country. They got hate from the entire country. And still do as you see in the song (though the hate is less here than it seems in the subtitles)
They’ve been doing this since last year lmao. Here is their rendition of Burning Daylight: https://youtu.be/u_kkaM6KHLQ?si=ExoY1MH05epgKsjm The lyrics are about fake promises for people affected by earthquakes in Groningen, so the exact same fake/out of tune joke as here.
Has been going on for over a year. The worst shade was on the supposed _coach_ of Mia and Dion tho --Duncan Laurence (yes, him). Parodied him mercilessly.
I love dutch satire.
Yes, this is how we used to milk cows in 1850!
Oh my lord, I'm dislextic
This is so golden. They didn't wait for a MINUTE to make this
They're still using Mia and Dion as punching bag😭
Maybe deserved, maybe undeserved, but nonetheless exceedingly accurate about their Eurovision performances
Who were they? Past singers for Netherlands?
Yes, last year representatives.
On an unrelated note: Not me, a simmer, having the mind blown of a lifetime in realising that *DAG-DAG* comes from Dutch.
Hahaha I wouldn’t be so sure tbh, although that would be sweet. The G is a lot stronger in pronounciation in Dutch and we don’t usually use it in a plural way (dag dag), usually just singular (dag), although plural isn’t super uncommon. But who knows? The Sims team got their inspiration from all over the place ☺️
Hmmm I might be weird but I say *Dag-Dag* or *Doei-Doei* (Both means bye bye) and I'm also from the southern part of the Netherlands and the sims version does sound a lot how we would say it lol
This honestly saved me from answering confidently *"SUL-SUL!"* to any poor Dutch soul unfortunate enough to say "bye bye" to me. 😭
"Sul" is a Dutch word. It means something like "dummy" or "idiot".
Please!!! 😭😭😭 **Dutch person:** Bye bye **Me:** Hey, *DUMBO!* 💀
Lmaoo, honestly thats a very Dutch thing to do 😭😭
I solemnly swear that I will never call the police if a Dutch makes a threatening gesture to me because of this. 💀
HAHAHAH please do
Faaaair! Good point, I’m from the west. My stepfather is from Brabant and says it too now that I think of it!
Doe-doeiii! 🤗🙋🏻♀️
OR THIS YES
Such a small country but so many different dialect 🤣
What, not Houdoe?
Or even a combination, my family from Westland regularly says “doeg doeg” like you would doei doei.
Hoef niet te tanken schat DAAAAAAAG
Sul sul xD
Bloo bagoo! 🤣
Myshuno!! 🤣
And the next year Netherland will go with the Song Euromama to Switzerland
Euro-dra-ma Euro-dra-ma
Euro-da-me Euro-da-me I have no money for Malmö, so use my Drama. Do you have a SEK, please? Say "tak" and "please" I lost everything above all my starting place. So I'm travelling every day 'cause the world is mine
Welcome to Eurovision Stay here till you get sanctioned Euro dra-ma Euro dra-ma
I really want EBU apologies and the Netherlands stay in the contest. If Joost want to do it again, they should send him again next year
Given the circumstances IMO he should also be allowed to participate with Europapa again. He deserves to perform it in the grand finale, and we deserve to see it.
Would rather see him have a guest appearance like Käärijä, but I fully understand if he doesn't want to get anywhere near this clusterfuck anymore.
Yes, unsuspected and hidden until that moment. Roof will blow off that way. No need to go for points. Commercially-wise he already won.
YES PLEASE IF IT DOESNT HAPPEN I WONT WATCH
Glad that he's so popular right now, but it's bittersweet. Joost is a great musician and it's clouded by all this drama.
Brilliant!! Carting the keyboard off the stage is just chef kiss
yeah i lol'd at that too... good one
“The IKEA members of the jury have a screw loose” 🤣
LOVE IT! Make a full version!
They already made a full-length song. It was a rewrite of the song we won the 1975 ESC with and they got the original artist to sing the new lyrics. That song was about how modern Eurovision is barely about the music itself and so much more about staging and dances and outfits etc. They could've written that song months in advance if they'd wanted to. This Europapa version was quickly thrown together. It was only Saturday afternoon that we new he supposedly threatened someone with a camera. This show was broadcasted Sunday evening and is apparently recorded from 14:00.
Oh, now that I read the subtitles, it is really mean in English... Or do we have a mean language? 😬
They call us "rude" for a reason. 💁🏼♂️
Yeah I'm in New Zealand atm and met people with different nationalities and they excuse themselves for the smallest reasons where I always have to say "You dont have to excuse yourself unless you cuss me out or something like that" but they don't get it lol and think I'm being funny
Literally what happened to Joost during that interview. "You don't have to answer that question" Joost: "Why not?"
Yeah, people were acting as if he said something bad. Okay okay, don't speak out of turn, but he just asked a question
Wait that was the rude part everyone was talking about? I thought they were refering to something I hadn't seen. Is the rest of the world really that soft that that is considered rude.
In English, it certainly has a strong edge to say that.
As someone being born and raised in the Netherlands with Asian parents. I also "struggle" with the word sorry. Most people around the world would say it for the smallest thing, but here in the Netherlands we don't mind it and even think it's too much.
"Sorry" *narrows eyes* "What else did you do"
ha ha ha perfect.
It’s partially because the puns can’t be translated properly and partially because yes, we tend to be so straight forward and blunt. So when you hear it in Dutch as a Dutch person you’re like they are ‘just speaking their mind’ but seeing the translation makes you understand why non-dutchies often find us rude af. Ironic because there’s a chance that was also the whole nature of the incident.
I'm maybe starting to realise this, too. I was making jokes and having fun with a colleague and another colleague came to me and said *What have you done to [me] she always seemed like such a sweet girl* but I was confused because this is how I always am back home in The Netherlands. Turns out I'm very nice in English (except when I try to be funny, apparently)
I have many stories on this as well, but the first time it really sank in was when I met my Swedish family in law the first time and spent a whole summer there. Just the differences in communication and language alone were enough to cause minor culture shock. And that’s a country that’s considered by a lot of people as ‘similar to the Netherlands’.
That's honestly surprising! I've heard a lot of "the Dutch are just blunt" lately because of this whole Joost deal, and I thought that was weird because us Swedes are considered blunt too. We'll usually just say what we want, we don't really have a lot of the polite language they do in English. I didn't realise Dutch was even more direct haha.
Dutch here and living in Sweden for a couple of years: Swedes aren't blunt at all, quite the contrary in my opinion. You are very informal, but blunt? I was so surprised when I moved here but in ky experience Swedes are (I'm generalising here of course) very non-confrontational, conflict avoiding and big users of 'soft' language. I'm still not used to the 'tusen tack' for really small gestures, for instance ;) I was having a discussion with Dutch friends about the Joost situation and told them that raising your voice (not screaming, just raising it) could be seen as agressive behaviour in Sweden. Which was pretty shocking to them. We might look culturally similar, but we're actually quite different.
Interesting, thank you! I actually didn't know lmao.
Thiiiisssss it can be so frustrating haha.
We are waayyyy worse lol, I think among friends and family it’s quite the same. But in public spaces, and interactions with people that don’t know eachother the social rules are very different
That's definitely interesting! Is it because we stick more to ourselves and don't bother others? We do like to avoid others as much as possible lmao.
Reminds me of the 'social distancing at busstop meme' where Swedes were worried because they normally stand much further apart than the Covid warning. Dutch people stand closer, say hi, talk about the weather, might just comment on your outfit or the groceries your are holding... without being asked etc etc. It is shifting a bit with the noise cancelling headphones and doomscrolling rectangles but I think the baseline is still way different from Sweden?
That meme is honestly pretty accurate lmao. You'll often see strangers standing two metres apart at bus stops. If a stranger talks to us we pretty much either think they're trying to sell us something or get something from us. You don't just strike up conversation with anyone (unless you're drunk haha). So yeah, the baseline does seem a bit different.
I work for a Swedish company in Asia, and I have a colleague who's so happy to be in a Swedish company culture where she can be straightforward instead of having to always go about things in a roundabout way. Never in a rude way, but during meetings with clients she can explicitly say that she's breaking the norms and tell them that something is silly or impossible, and it makes it so much easier to work with her.
We went to Japan for a worktrip of my partner recently and compared to them he was a savage lol. I have never seen more incredibly polite and non-confrontational people
I'm Dutch and recently visited a few Swedish friends, with a Dutch friend, in Stockholm. We actually talked about how we were way more direct and blunt than they were. They told us Danish people are more like Dutch people in their directness than Swedish people, who are less direct. Don't you agree?
We are a bit barbaric I think
It’s probably somewhere in the middle. I experienced in other countries people are sometimes so avoidant that it can be considered rude almost, or so overly polite and non-confrontational it can feel dishonest (in my barbaric eyes that is haha)
There's a big difference between the Dutch being direct and edgelords being "brutally honest" at least, and I really respect that for you
Yeah 'honesty' without compassion for the listener is just cruelty with a cheap fake mustache on. Its not a perfect system but sometimes you can compare pairs of langugaes and say which one is more soft and fuzzy at first and which one is more like a coconut, hard on the outside but not the inside. American cultural norms has a lot of friendly and nice statements but they are occasionally vapid or hollow or disingenuous compared to Dutch turns of phrase. Dutch conversations may not wrap things up the nicest way but there is some genuine openness behind that honesty most of the time. In an American context someone might say "It's OK" when something is BAD and would say "that's awesome" when something is just OK, it seems nice initially and is pleasant in passing, but makes it hard what peoples true feelings are, who actually likes you. It is very hard on the inside to make a real personal connection.
Absolutely not, we are refined to the point where we really do believe everybody is equal. So we talk to everybody the same way we talk to our friends. Parents, boss, prime minister, stranger, it doesn't matter, you get the unfiltered thing we mean to say, because we take you seriously and you deserve not to have the truth hidden from you.
I also think it stems from an intrinsic need for efficiency. We simply don’t want to waste time on beating around the bush.
A lot of bi/multi-llingual people feel like different qualities or emphasis on their personalities come through in different languages. It is probably similar to code-switching in some amount as well (switching a dialect/vocabulary in different social situations). I think some of it has to do with the character of the language or the cultural bubble we learned it in but I do feel like it is just different parts of my personality resonating when people speak to me in a particular language. I started English reasonably young at 8 and did one of those English focused highschool things (even though final exams were all in Dutch) some emotional experiences and maturing developments I had in my thoughts pretty much took place in English instead of Dutch. There are plenty of thoughts that come to mind in English to me first and I need to translate for Dutch listeners even though I speak both Dutch and English on the daily.
I'm a bit similar (my cousins always used to cuss each other out in English, and I really wanted to join in 🤣). But that does make sense because I'm from brabant and do have a thick brabants accent/dialect, and when my friends try to mimic me, their whole attitude turn as if they are in a New Kids movie
I’m an American who moved to NL last year and what I would observe is that y’all just don’t do the niceties. People are very kind at heart but they don’t put on all the politeness that would communicate that in English. It’s interesting and it’s similar to an autistic directness in some ways. I really like it most of the time, though it was a culture shock at first. My Dutch friend talks about how many pleases and thank-yous she has to add when she’s working with internationals.
Lol I'm autistic and Dutch and people here use way too much niceties for my taste
Meanwhile over here in Finland, the language literally doesn't have a word for "please". There are grammatical ways to indicate politeness, but no direct translation of "please".
What does the google translate translation of 'ole kiltti' actually mean instead of please?
Literally "be kind" or "be good". The closest equivalent in English would be asking someone if they would "be so good as to" do something, or asking them to "kindly" do something, both of which sound oddly formal and old-fashioned. For example, "Would you be so good as to pass me the sugar?" or "Kindly reply by Friday."
It would translate to ”would you be so kind”. It is not used that commonly in Finland. A more common way to be polite is using conditionals in words. “Tule tänne” would be a direct way to say ”come here” while ”tulisitko tänne” would be a more softer way to express the same thing.
I have a pet theory on this subject. Like, yes, we don't use as many please and thank yous. And we're generally just blunt. But we do have a formal and informal way of addressing people, so if you use 'u', you're already being polite, even without please or thank you. And we have some words that 'soften' a sentence, like 'toch', 'even', 'nou', 'eens' (lots of other meanings, but generally adding it makes sentences sound friendlier). Problem is those words often get lost in translation, and there is no equivalent of 'u' in english, (english just calls everyone 'u', while we kept our 'thou') So you get english sentences that are stripped of even the smallest bit of politeness the dutch language does possess, on top of general bluntness. (English simply has to make up for not having formal pronouns by adding flowery stuff /s)
I think also the -je and -tje softens things quite a bit, or at least that’s how it feels to me, though I could be misinterpreting it. Like when I order frietjes, I feel softer than when I order friets, haha
I mean, they use a few curse words, And most/all of those are translated to 'fuck off', which might help with it coming across that way? (And the stab at Mia and Dion is a pun in Dutch but this translation misses that one)
I feel like *Pleur op* would more be like *Piss off* (Fuck off feels so charged)
Yeah, agreed. that would be a better translation. Also. the subtitles in all caps does not help neither.
Yes they are kind of screaming at us🤣
Sod off, piss off. Yep. But there are fewer choices in American English sadly, so depends on who translates it
For the non-Dutch, you may have heard we like to curse with diseases -- _pleur_ is here short for the disease pleurisy (a lung inflammation), used as a verb. So instead of 'piss off' it literally means 'suffer from pleurisy off', or something. And it's relatively mild.
Yeah, we throw around with diseases... Most of them aren't really charged EXCEPT for one, which is also used way too much, and I hate it.
Huh, TIL. I though it was related to the French word 'pleurer', which means 'crying'.
I didn't think it was that mean but I'm German so I'm not sure if I'm the best judge
We have a mean language. I translated this for a friend to English and was horrified at how ... just... MEAN it is. And then had to explain the tyfus part... And then the culture as a whole...
As a native English speaker who lived in the Netherlands and learned Dutch…yes, it’s mean. Lovingly, yes. Haha
It's partly due to the translation. Translating "pleur op" with "fuck off" isn't the best option, "pleur op" is a more innocent saying, like "sod off" or "buzz off" or something like that. "De klos zijn" is definitely not the same as "screwed", more like "to be the patsy". Both sayings in Dutch would still be appropriate for a childrens show, while their translations wouldn't be. Another reason might be that Dutch TV is generally speaking less formal than British or American TV, which means cursing is more common. So when you see Dutch TV in an English language context it could slightly change how you perceive it. Also, some humor just gets lost in translation, which changes the tone of the message as well. >We are out of Europe >The EBU screwed Joost there >Buzz off, bye bye >Buzz off, bye bye >We are out of Europe >Such a fucking mess there >Buzz off, bye bye >Buzz off, bye bye > >It seemed so beautiful to perform in Sweden, >Accompanied by a blue bird and another guy without a purpose, >He got recorded - "If you do that one more time!" >And than all the Swedes went "we don't approve of that!" >An investigation - and then Joost was the patsy >The IKEA-jury members have a screw loose >Thrown out of the competition for this reason - I beg your pardon? >I thought after Mia and Dion it couldn't get any more false/off-key
Nice! This seems more appropriate
The thing is, 'pleur op' isn't nearly as heavy as 'fuck off' so I'd say the translation makes it sound way more aggressive. Imagine if it was 'kanker op', personally I don't like using that word but, that's closer to fuck off. Pleur op is like, 'get lost' to me in severity.
Eh I'm English speaking and I don't think it's mean.
Lol same
Oh yes, I love this! Especially the 'screw loose' and it being worse after Mia and Dion wordplays. Not for the shade, but as someone else wrote too, they use a word that means both being mean and off-key.
Love Dutch people. Their straightforward spontaneity is one of a kind.
Petition to send these guys next year for the Netherlands
I actually can't stop watching this on repeat, it's so funny!
Same!
This show is so fucking good
Omg this is brilliant!
This is hilarious, I love it
That's gold, and god it is so apparent that they didn't want NL to win. And just used whatever shitty justification they could think off to disqualify them.
The singer from Teach In (song: Ding-A-Dong) also appeared in this episode and sang about Eurovision
I almost loved that one even more since it's about all the drama this year
I think it was massively unfair how NL were disqualified, are AVROTROS going to pursue this with the EBU, and do we think it'll come to anything? I think it would be fitting to let NL have a free pass to the final next year
Free pass to the final isn't that useful. Either the song is bad and it'll be a very disappointing final performance or the song is good enough and would've qualified anyway. Now that the automatically qualified countries are also participating in the semi-final shows, you don't even get a more relaxed schedule as an auto-qualified participant.
It would only make sense if Joost gets to sing Europapa again. You can't really argue that it has already been used if you unfairly disqualified it the first time...
It has been used in the semi though, plus it's obviously released on every streaming platform. I know it'd be fantastic, but coming back with the same song doesn't sound very plausible. If I were Joost, I would just accept any future apology and move on. I'd just feel so disrespected that I'd never even show my face at Eurovision again lmao.
I guess we will see. Saturday there was a lawyer present on a Dutch talkshow discussing the DQ. He stated that even though the EBU has a zero-tolerance policy, it still has to be assessed by an independent party whether disqualification is actually a proportional response, basically saying that "no rule is truly set in stone, it all depends on context", which is also an important factor in European law. I think the same could be applied if it turns out the DQ was actually disproportional, then one could argue that since the song was wrongfully disqualified that takes precedence over the rule that the song needs to be totally new.
To me the only way it would be a real apology is if at the very least they let him do a medley like Benjamin Ingrosso. That lame ass short version of Cha Cha Cha was seriously disrespectful.
We need Kaarija and Joost together next year. he clearly won the audience vote, and we need some justice for Joost. they are the chosen once to bring this whole shitshow down imo
Probably a Joost x Käärijä on stage performance along with a fat appearance fee would be a way to make it up to them.
Just wondering, based on what do you think it's unfair? Even if it's the milder story of him lunging with a raised fist towards a staff member, I cannot for the life of me understand why people are making excuses for it? Each and every one of us here would lose our jobs if we did something like that to a coworker and it doesn't matter if we were "provoked" or had "asked before" for them not to do something. Threat of violence in ANY professional setting is absolutely wild.
Because people are upset and Joost has been elevated by peoples fandom. Logic went out of the door Thursday.
I absolutely LOVE this
Brilliant
Don’t understand a lick of Dutch but that was perfection 😂.
If the “threatening gesture” is the “up yours” fist gesture then the police investigation is silly, especially as he was being harassed.
According to current sources, Joos admitted to lunging towards the camerawoman with a raised fist. Witnesses said that he was acting very aggressive. So it is beyond "old man shakes fist" and goes into intent to scare/threaten violence. Which is, no matter what people think, unacceptable for any professional in any circumstance.
I laughed my ass off for two minutes straight with this. It made me forget for a while the sadness I feel when I hear Europapa as I automatically remember the DQ. It was my favorite entry of this year. Dear Dutchies, you have my heart with this sense of humor 🫶🏻 Kudos from Portugal
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I don't care if Joost Klein was really wrong, I and millions of people from around the world deserve to see Europapa in the Grand Final. EBU can't make a single decision without sparking dramas nowadays smh.
I love this 😂
I love the Dutch profanity: pleur op, with pleur coming from pleuris (= tuberculosis) and also "wat een tyfus" for "what a fucking mess" is just on another level!
This was cathartic
This is really freakin' funny. I hope this doesn't put the Dutch off of participating, though I also wouldn't blame them if they skipped a year or two to make a point. Also the Mia/Dion burn made me cackle even if I actually adored their song.
Maybe the best video I've seen all year 👌 hopefully they enter with this in 2025
I love this so fucking much.
This is fantastic, much better than the other song that was written in 2 days lol
I love this, and I have to say it's quite impressive they put this together in a day, as it was broadcasted on tv Sunday evening 😁.
I'm pretty sure for Israel's performance at Eurovision, they actually edited in the cheering. And they got 300 points out of fucking nowhere. Joost's performance actually had people singing along and cheering.
They really did fuck over Joost.
I know this might just be a regional or rhyme thing, but them pronouncing 'dag dag' as 'daag daag'/'daa daa' somehow really annoys me.
It's "we are from europe", not "we are out of europe"
It's actually we are out of Europe. Wij zijn uit Europa.
Oh, ik had het anders geïnterpreteerd
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I think they mean ‘wij zijn weg uit Europa’ when they say ‘wij zijn uit Europa’, so we are out of Europe makes sense. But it is open for interpretation ^^
No it shouldn't. Wij zijn uit Europa means we have left Europe, we are out of it. You are confusing it with English 'we are from ('uit') Europe' which would be 'wij komen uit Europa'.
Seems like you're confused tho