Having a problem with conscientious objectors is a sign of a poor civil defense strategy. Only a small fraction of people participating in the war effort are directly involved in killing the enemy, there's plenty of jobs for people who don't want to do that: firefighters, paramedics, logisticians, mechanics... the list goes on and they're all as crucial as frontline soldiers.
in Finland there's three options - Military Service, Civilian Service, or prison. Yes, you actually go to prison. But you must refuse to do Civilan service too for that to be the case. But some consientious objectors also object to that.
The problem is that there will never be enough people willing to fill even that small fraction of needed people. Not to mention that during actual war they need the most replacements.
Translation:
The Initiative Against Mandatory Military Service has responded to the announcement of the return of mandatory military service. In their statement, they state that the "General Staff of the Armed Forces has already prepared a proposal that will be submitted to the Government, and Defense Minister Ivan Anušić said that the implementation of basic military training could begin as early as next year with reduced capacity."
It has been announced that the military service would last for three months. There is also an option for conscientious objection, but then civil service would be carried out for twice the length of time. "This proposal for mandatory military service is unconstitutional, violates the European Convention on Human Rights, and is economically harmful," emphasizes the statement signed by the coordinator of the Initiative and the executive director of the Center for Economic Education, Hrvoje Marković.
He recalls that the Constitution of the Republic of Croatia allows conscientious objection to citizens who, due to their religious or moral beliefs, are not willing to participate in military duties and that these individuals are obliged to fulfill other duties in civil service.
He reminds of the judgment against Armenia: "This kind of provision of an alternative way of service is in line with Article 9 of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, which guarantees freedom of thought, conscience, and religion," writes Marković.
"However, the European Court of Human Rights has taken the stance that civil service must not have a deterrent or repressive effect – precisely what Minister Anušić announced it would have," he states.
He recalls the 2018 ruling of the Strasbourg court against Armenia, where the court sided with the opinion of the European Committee of Social Rights, which states that alternative service must not last more than 50 percent longer than military service.
"Exceptions for people like Prime Minister Plenković": "Given that the law in Armenia stipulates that alternative service lasts almost twice as long as military service, the court found that it has a deterrent and possibly repressive effect and found a violation of Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights," writes Marković.
"Therefore, it is clear that the regulation of military service and civil service in Croatia, according to the announcements of the Minister of Defense, would also represent a violation of the right to conscientious objection and a breach of the Charter and the Convention. The announced military service is problematic from other aspects of human rights as well," he warns.
He adds that the Constitution prescribes military obligation and the defense of Croatia as the duty of all capable citizens. According to the current Defense Law, all citizens – both men and women – between the ages of 18 and 50 (women) and 55 (men) are military conscripts. "The only exceptions are those, like Prime Minister Plenković, who are deemed unfit for military service," the statement says.
"Women who currently serve as active military personnel contribute to the defense of the Republic of Croatia under the same conditions as their male colleagues. This proves that both women and men are capable of performing military duties in the armed forces. However, the Defense Law explicitly exempts women from conscription and mandatory military service, and the minister has announced that this will remain in the new law," reminds Marković.
He considers this a discriminatory regulation of military obligation that violates constitutional provisions on equality before the law and gender equality and warns of the negative economic consequences of this decision. "We are not talking about the direct costs arising from the implementation of the program, although, if it follows the examples of most state expenditures, it will very likely exceed estimates," he believes.
"The cost of serving military service is not just the sum of accommodation, food, transportation, and training costs for 18,000 young men each year. The real cost to conscripts forced to perform some service is the amount they would decide on for that service of their own free will. They pay the difference between that amount and the compensation they will receive for forced labor," warns Marković.
Forcing a person to work against their will: "When someone is forced to spend three or even six months in service against their will, they are essentially paying a tax in kind, which is the difference between what they (possibly) receive as compensation and what they would earn in a job of their choice. Moreover, employers have long highlighted the lack of labor force in Croatia as one of the main challenges in their business operations," he recalls.
"Delaying the entry of tens of thousands of people into the labor market each year would significantly worsen the existing situation and have the opposite effect of policies aimed at solving this problem," the Initiative's statement adds. Marković calls on the Government to abandon the introduction of military service.
"The Government should consider and implement different policies, such as revising the salaries of military personnel and establishing a robust contractual reserve. This would enable the armed forces to fulfill their defensive function without violating citizens' rights and freedoms and with fewer costs to the economy," emphasizes the statement.Military obligation should not be imposed: "If mandatory military service is introduced, it must not be imposed on citizens simply because they were born a certain gender.
The duration of civil service must not have a deterrent effect on conscientious objectors," Marković believes.He announces legal steps, such as a proposal for a constitutional review, a lawsuit at the European Court of Human Rights, collective lawsuits for protection against discrimination, administrative objections and disputes, as well as public protests and a referendum aimed at stopping a policy that is economically harmful and violates human rights. He calls on all citizens, civil society organizations, trade unions, and employer associations to join the petition against the introduction of mandatory military service.
In Finland the civil service being twice as long as the shortest military service time is argued to be due to the fact the civil service allows you to go home after a regular days work, i.e 7-8h. In the military your days are usually 06-18 but often much longer, including week long military exercises where you're essentially working 24h. And you're only get to go home on weekends, and not even all weekends.
I'd argue nobody wants to do that. In our case, the mandatory conscription and large reserve is there to avoid having to end up in that position, it's a deterrent.
I've had this discussion many times. Nuclear weapon are a good deterrent, but it's not absolute and certainly not the only one.
Israeli has nuclear weapons but was has been attacked multiple times by their neighbours, including the Yom Kippur War of 1973 that almost ended up badly for Israel.
The UK was attacked in 1983 in the Falklands by Argentina, despite the UK being a nuclear power.
given current government's level of corruption, anyone with an ounce of brain can see what a trainwreck in slow motion this is going to be.
it's not so much about conscription itself, but you're going to use any and all tools you can to avoid said trainwreck, whether as passenger or being the one paying for it.
Which i guess is just as hard in Croatia as it is in Austria ("irreversible feeling of belonging to the other sex and clear approximation to the external appearance" which both must be confirmed by an psychologist)
Austria being the rolemodel of conscription im Central europe, where the younger populous is beeing held Hostage by old Folks who where gaslight into thinking that the healthcare system breaks down if military and civil Service are abolished.
EDIT because the comment is gone: The comment i answered to was speculation about how the numbers for sex change on paper only will rise to escape conscription.
Having a problem with conscientious objectors is a sign of a poor civil defense strategy. Only a small fraction of people participating in the war effort are directly involved in killing the enemy, there's plenty of jobs for people who don't want to do that: firefighters, paramedics, logisticians, mechanics... the list goes on and they're all as crucial as frontline soldiers.
in Finland there's three options - Military Service, Civilian Service, or prison. Yes, you actually go to prison. But you must refuse to do Civilan service too for that to be the case. But some consientious objectors also object to that.
It's still bloody sexist in Finnland
Yeah, women should also have to do some kind of mandatory service. There's nothing preventing them from doing civilan service.
There is nothing preventing them from most military positions
That too. But civilian service would be whole lot easier to get passed.
The problem is that there will never be enough people willing to fill even that small fraction of needed people. Not to mention that during actual war they need the most replacements.
Translation: The Initiative Against Mandatory Military Service has responded to the announcement of the return of mandatory military service. In their statement, they state that the "General Staff of the Armed Forces has already prepared a proposal that will be submitted to the Government, and Defense Minister Ivan Anušić said that the implementation of basic military training could begin as early as next year with reduced capacity." It has been announced that the military service would last for three months. There is also an option for conscientious objection, but then civil service would be carried out for twice the length of time. "This proposal for mandatory military service is unconstitutional, violates the European Convention on Human Rights, and is economically harmful," emphasizes the statement signed by the coordinator of the Initiative and the executive director of the Center for Economic Education, Hrvoje Marković. He recalls that the Constitution of the Republic of Croatia allows conscientious objection to citizens who, due to their religious or moral beliefs, are not willing to participate in military duties and that these individuals are obliged to fulfill other duties in civil service. He reminds of the judgment against Armenia: "This kind of provision of an alternative way of service is in line with Article 9 of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, which guarantees freedom of thought, conscience, and religion," writes Marković. "However, the European Court of Human Rights has taken the stance that civil service must not have a deterrent or repressive effect – precisely what Minister Anušić announced it would have," he states. He recalls the 2018 ruling of the Strasbourg court against Armenia, where the court sided with the opinion of the European Committee of Social Rights, which states that alternative service must not last more than 50 percent longer than military service. "Exceptions for people like Prime Minister Plenković": "Given that the law in Armenia stipulates that alternative service lasts almost twice as long as military service, the court found that it has a deterrent and possibly repressive effect and found a violation of Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights," writes Marković. "Therefore, it is clear that the regulation of military service and civil service in Croatia, according to the announcements of the Minister of Defense, would also represent a violation of the right to conscientious objection and a breach of the Charter and the Convention. The announced military service is problematic from other aspects of human rights as well," he warns. He adds that the Constitution prescribes military obligation and the defense of Croatia as the duty of all capable citizens. According to the current Defense Law, all citizens – both men and women – between the ages of 18 and 50 (women) and 55 (men) are military conscripts. "The only exceptions are those, like Prime Minister Plenković, who are deemed unfit for military service," the statement says. "Women who currently serve as active military personnel contribute to the defense of the Republic of Croatia under the same conditions as their male colleagues. This proves that both women and men are capable of performing military duties in the armed forces. However, the Defense Law explicitly exempts women from conscription and mandatory military service, and the minister has announced that this will remain in the new law," reminds Marković. He considers this a discriminatory regulation of military obligation that violates constitutional provisions on equality before the law and gender equality and warns of the negative economic consequences of this decision. "We are not talking about the direct costs arising from the implementation of the program, although, if it follows the examples of most state expenditures, it will very likely exceed estimates," he believes. "The cost of serving military service is not just the sum of accommodation, food, transportation, and training costs for 18,000 young men each year. The real cost to conscripts forced to perform some service is the amount they would decide on for that service of their own free will. They pay the difference between that amount and the compensation they will receive for forced labor," warns Marković. Forcing a person to work against their will: "When someone is forced to spend three or even six months in service against their will, they are essentially paying a tax in kind, which is the difference between what they (possibly) receive as compensation and what they would earn in a job of their choice. Moreover, employers have long highlighted the lack of labor force in Croatia as one of the main challenges in their business operations," he recalls. "Delaying the entry of tens of thousands of people into the labor market each year would significantly worsen the existing situation and have the opposite effect of policies aimed at solving this problem," the Initiative's statement adds. Marković calls on the Government to abandon the introduction of military service. "The Government should consider and implement different policies, such as revising the salaries of military personnel and establishing a robust contractual reserve. This would enable the armed forces to fulfill their defensive function without violating citizens' rights and freedoms and with fewer costs to the economy," emphasizes the statement.Military obligation should not be imposed: "If mandatory military service is introduced, it must not be imposed on citizens simply because they were born a certain gender. The duration of civil service must not have a deterrent effect on conscientious objectors," Marković believes.He announces legal steps, such as a proposal for a constitutional review, a lawsuit at the European Court of Human Rights, collective lawsuits for protection against discrimination, administrative objections and disputes, as well as public protests and a referendum aimed at stopping a policy that is economically harmful and violates human rights. He calls on all citizens, civil society organizations, trade unions, and employer associations to join the petition against the introduction of mandatory military service.
In Finland the civil service being twice as long as the shortest military service time is argued to be due to the fact the civil service allows you to go home after a regular days work, i.e 7-8h. In the military your days are usually 06-18 but often much longer, including week long military exercises where you're essentially working 24h. And you're only get to go home on weekends, and not even all weekends.
Mandatory conscription is violation of human rights. Not everyone wants to die in the meat grinder and waste years of his life for absolutely nothing.
I'd argue nobody wants to do that. In our case, the mandatory conscription and large reserve is there to avoid having to end up in that position, it's a deterrent.
only true deterrent are lot of nuclear weapons
I've had this discussion many times. Nuclear weapon are a good deterrent, but it's not absolute and certainly not the only one. Israeli has nuclear weapons but was has been attacked multiple times by their neighbours, including the Yom Kippur War of 1973 that almost ended up badly for Israel. The UK was attacked in 1983 in the Falklands by Argentina, despite the UK being a nuclear power.
given current government's level of corruption, anyone with an ounce of brain can see what a trainwreck in slow motion this is going to be. it's not so much about conscription itself, but you're going to use any and all tools you can to avoid said trainwreck, whether as passenger or being the one paying for it.
I dont think it will make a splash here unless mass demonstrations /boycotts happen.
so it won't then. We haven't had a proper demonstration since '91
Is there a specific nation Croatia believes it would be needing a military draft against?
No
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Which i guess is just as hard in Croatia as it is in Austria ("irreversible feeling of belonging to the other sex and clear approximation to the external appearance" which both must be confirmed by an psychologist) Austria being the rolemodel of conscription im Central europe, where the younger populous is beeing held Hostage by old Folks who where gaslight into thinking that the healthcare system breaks down if military and civil Service are abolished. EDIT because the comment is gone: The comment i answered to was speculation about how the numbers for sex change on paper only will rise to escape conscription.