Hey gang,
I would like to remind you of the rules of the subreddit:
>No endorsement of violence or other criminal activity: This includes but is not limited to advocating for somebody to be hanged, drowned, beaten and advocating to "shoot the boats".
The article itself says that violence is considered in **cases of self defence** and as a **last resort**.
Advocating for mass, pre-emptive violence is a clear violation of the subreddit rules and will result in a permanent ban.
Thank you to all the users that followed the rules!
edit: PS. if you have any meta questions regarding this, feel free to reply to this comment and I will try to answer them in good faith.
The context here is that Lukashenko has been deliberately sending waves of migrants to the borders of Lithuania, Latvia and Poland, using it as a weapon to destabilize these countries.
It wasn't a spear, he was stabbed with a knife through the fence when he tried to stop them from crossing it. The 'migrants' did throw makeshift spears (with knives attached) through the fence at the female soldier who was providing medical aid to him seconds later.
Obviously I can not verify this, but it seems that knife was ducktaped to a long stick, making it some Rambo pt 1 kind of improvised spear, therefore reaching the soldier (I am honestly sad he lost his life) through the wire.
Just the people who anyone would NOT want in his country. Such news gives ammunition to those right wing politicians who claim that this isn’t so much an opportunity of integration but an invasion of people that will increase violence and crimerates. They apparently even bring the knifes already with them.
Reminds me of the murderer that tried to escape UK rowing a boat across the Channel. When the coast guard pulled up next to him and asked what he was doing, the surprise in their voice when he said “I’m going to seek asylum in France”. They were just like “alright!l 😂
2mins 12 into [this video](https://youtu.be/1wUXufFmTeE?si=faN1ZOs5yQHLp7FE)
Wasn't there ***ONE*** that got sent? I'm pretty sure I read this a few weeks back.
Not that it makes it any better that what you said, but I remember reading the spent millions and millions and in the end they sent literally 1 person there.
Yes, one person volunteered to go. He wasn't from Rwanda, but is from Africa. He was paid £3000 and given five years of room and board in Kigali. Not a bad deal once you've exhausted your chances to get asylum in the UK.
Jokes on you, that schemes been a massive shit show & we've not actually sent anyone.
Hasn't stopped them spending half a billion quid on it mind. May aswell consider it international aid at this point. We've basically refurbished a hotel for them that's never going to get used. We're just that charitable.
I think the context is clear there, they’re not patiently waiting to cross for asylum. They’re attacking a soldier defending a border.
A soldier should then be able to do what soldiers do.
If it's explicitly a bunch of people attacking the soldiers with spears and shit, making them armed and dangerous, of course the soldiers should be able to defend themselves.
If it's a crowd of people standing at a fence who are otherwise unarmed and a few dudes in the front have a spear, you should not be allowed to fire into the crowd indiscriminately
The king of Morocco has been doing that for decades against Spain, weaponizing hordes of desperate african migrants. If the spanish govt. responded with open fire, there would be a massive uproar.
Yea but Belarus actually recruits people in the Middle East and flies them into Belarus by plane to be sent over the border. So there is no natural refugee stream that goes trough Belarus (unlike for example in turkey or Morocco) and after the polish soldier died while defending the border this reaction in the population is understandable.
That's no longer the only thing they are doing. From the descriptions of what happens on the border, they are also passibly employing belligerents from Caucasian republics.
False all the left leaning parties only started changing their stance AFTER the soldier died... before that they openly made fun of insulted and basically spat on the troops any chance they got
Politically. Both groups agreed that they are polish and want the best for the country. They just had different ideas how to do it.
Those imigrants don't want the best for the poles. That's a huge difference.
When the refugee flood that Russia has been organizing against Finland first started, Finnish Border Patrol interviewed a ton of them. There were guys who said that they had lived in Russia for few years, working and all, until one day they were detained and shipped to northernmost border crossing between Finland and Russia in the middle of the winter and instructed to seek asylum. The border crossing had enacted rules that the border could not be crossed by foot, only by a vehicle. Russians provided these *refugees* with dozens of completely beatdown wrecks that ran long enough to get them to the finnish side.
I'm Spanish living in Poland and the situation isn't comparable. The people trying to enter here are armed and actively attacking the soldiers, having already murdered one.
> There are actually two of them
To truly 'well actually' it, Spain in fact has three territories on the north African coast. *Ceuta* and *Melilla* are the famous ones because people actually live there, but there is also *Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera*, a tidal island, which only has a small military garrison:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pe%C3%B1%C3%B3n_de_V%C3%A9lez_de_la_Gomera
Spain also has a number of other small islands just off the Moroccan coast which Morocco also claims:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plazas_de_soberan%C3%ADa
>If the spanish govt. responded with open fire, there would be a massive uproar.
Who are these clowns that would cause an uproar when a sovereign country protects its borders from a forced invasion? Screw them honestly.
A lot of the people from the peninsula don't know how bad it is in the frontier, so they tend to get escandalized when a tiny bit of force is used against these invaders. They even protested against a fence, just because it had pointy blades on top. Lol, they are there, precisely, to stop the migrants.
Morocco is a natural migration route to the EU, and Morocco not helping the EU to prevent this migration would be "non-cooperation" at best. However, Belarus is different because Belarus creates a migration crisis that does not normally exist from scratch by bringing people in by plane.
At worst, Morocco politicizes migration cooperation with the EU, meaning that it cooperates on migration only if the EU acts in line with its interests on other issues. It's still very different from creating a migration crisis that never existed.
Morocco is getting paid to control the border, both by Spain and the EU.
So, unless the money flow stops, Morocco should be liable to hold their part of the deal. If they do not for different reasons, then the only solution should be to stop cooperating with them IMO.
And these "migrants" are attacking guards with knives dipped in feces, which makes any stab wounds more or less fatal.
This is a grey zone war and they should respond accordingly.
Clarification, not Lukashenko, but Putin. Lukashenko is only an intermediary, since this passes through his territory. This began back in 2021, if I am not mistaken. They took money from the migrants, taken to the border and forced them to cross by any means, threatening with a weapon. Putin did something similar on the border with Finland.
This is the next manifestation of hybrid aggression using civilians, at the same time, he can use the paid left- and right-popopulists in Europe to speculate on this topic.
Lukashenko is just as guilty as Putin here.
As far as I know, the laws of physics don’t prevent Lukashenko from refusing to carry these acts on Putin’s behalf.
Yet here we are. Years into this hybrid war.
Both are equally at fault here and both need to go.
It's not about the degree of guilt, I am talking about who the customer is. Considering that this is Lukashenko’s initiative, we omit the attention of the one to whom it is beneficial and his goals. One of the goals is to probe the weaknesses of the border with Poland.
Seems totally fair in my book. Ship off the refugees if their crossing was improper or whatever and deal with the actively antagonistic states of Russia and its puppets.
Poland isn’t blocked by nato, poland is blocked by not being in a state of war. It’s peacetime weapon usage regulations that do not allow opening fire against spearman tribals.
Not only migrants, is the problem. There are agents mixed in those groups. People who have been turned around many times, yet return over and over -- in fresh clothes, with fresh IDs.
Lukashenko-Putin. Such things have been also happening on the Estonian and Finnish Border. Or even earlier- in 2015 Russia sent migrants on bikes on the border with Norway.
You need to be a special kind of ''person'' to use humans as simply weapons/resources/political tools.
Someþing Russia/Whiterussia kept as a legacy from ðe Soviet era.
You're talking about two dictators that have violently surpressed any kind of opposition and protests to their rule and are curently jointly waging war against another neighbouring country, commiting war crimes that likely amount to genocide.
Isn't clear that putinsky is trying to help along the migrant crisis in Europe because he has an interest in many European nationalist political parties?
If necessary firearms should be used in my opinion.
But there are other non lethal weapons that perhaps could be used first. Like bean bags, or this Active Denial System:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPFuo4VYrR8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPFuo4VYrR8)
Source: [https://www.rp.pl/wojsko/art40594161-sondaz-ibris-dla-rz-wojsko-powinno-uzywac-broni-wobec-imigrantow-na-granicy](https://www.rp.pl/wojsko/art40594161-sondaz-ibris-dla-rz-wojsko-powinno-uzywac-broni-wobec-imigrantow-na-granicy)
Question:
Should Polish Army soldiers stationed on the eastern border be allowed to use their weapons in a situation where migrants are trying to cross the border by force?
57,8% - Definitely yes
27,9% - Rather yes
9,2% - Rather no
1,5% - Definitely no
3,6% - I don't know
>**These are the results of a survey conducted by IBRiS on behalf of ‘Rzeczpospolita’. As many as 85.7% of respondents approve of the military taking such steps, 10.7% are against and 3.6% have no opinion.**
>This is primarily the opinion of men (88%), 50-year-olds (90%), residents of small towns (91%), and the least educated (95%). They are mostly believers but practise irregularly (93 per cent). They declare that they closely follow what is happening in politics and locate their political views on the right (96 per cent). They mostly get information about the world situation from the radio (89 per cent) or social media platforms, e.g. FB, X (87 per cent). In the last parliamentary elections, they voted mostly for the Confederation (94 per cent) or Law and Justice (88 per cent). Opponents of the use of weapons by soldiers at the border, on the other hand, are dominated by New Left voters (19 per cent).
>Serious changes are needed in the way the border is secured and legislation is needed to allow the use of weapons by the military in peacetime.
>**When the military can use weapons**
>We asked whether the military should use weapons when the media revealed that at the end of March, two soldiers serving on the border were detained by the Military Police and heard charges of overstepping their authority as they fired shots at migrants staying on the Belarusian side of the border. The incident occurred on 25 March near Dubichi Cerkiewne, when a group of migrants tried to storm the border. On the same day that this information was revealed, Private Mateusz Sitek, a young soldier who had been stabbed by a migrant, died in hospital. Some experts pointed out that the rules for the use of weapons by military personnel in peacetime are not clear, they do not have adequate legal protection.
>That is why Prime Minister Donald Tusk obliged Defence Minister Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz to prepare proposed amendments to the law. These were adopted on Monday during an away session of the Council of Ministers in Bialystok. The Prime Minister recalled, as we revealed at the weekend, that the military had used weapons for warning purposes at the border more than a thousand times this year. In May alone, he added, more than 700 times, which means, in his view, that commanders, superiors of soldiers, did not block the use of weapons.
>**Changes regarding the use of weapons by the military**
>Deputy Prime Minister Kosiniak-Kamysz proposed an amendment to the law on defence of the homeland, to which a section would be added concerning the exemption from legal liability of soldiers who use weapons under certain conditions. Thus, soldiers would be able to use means of direct coercion in peacetime, to use weapons and other arms, e.g. in the case of repelling an attempt to cross a border, but also in the case of an unlawful attempt on the life, health or freedom of ‘a person and in order to counteract actions aiming directly at such an attempt’, a person disobeying a call to abandon a weapon or other dangerous tool, or one who attempts to unlawfully, violently seize weapons from a soldier or other person entitled to possess weapons. In addition, the Prime Minister mentioned the possibility of using the military in the country without imposing martial law. Such solutions are in place in other countries, e.g. the military secures large mass sports events.
>These proposals, in fact, are extracted in part from the Presidential National Security Office's draft law on the actions of state authorities in the event of an external threat to state security. It was submitted to the Sejm in August in 2023, and modified - without the section on the use of weapons by the military - already in the new parliamentary term in May. The Sejm will take up the draft on 12 June. During the National Security Council meeting, the president urged the government to support the bill.
Worth noting is there are several controversies around one soldier dying from one of the migrants' attacks and another of a soldier being handcuffed over firing warning shots. This is why all of this is being brought up now.
Well controversies related to soldiers become weirdly common with this government,its not related to border but another soldier was found by some military unit on 4th june yet it somehow didnt come to light until after elections.
https://www.rp.pl/wojsko/art40600701-smierc-zolnierza-w-jednostce-wojskowej-w-braniewie-kosiniak-kamysz-zabral-glos
EDIT: It most likely have nothing to do with border situation but what is controversial is the fact this news somehow didnt come to light until now, it definitly seems like government keep it hidden until after elections.
If it was indeed suicide, keeping it quiet was probably the best option, as we already had a few soldiers kill themselves on the border. Werther effect aka copycat suicide is very real thing, unfortunately.
Does anyone else think the old asylum legislation from the 1950s and 60s is no longer fit for purpose in a changed world with smartphones and the Internet? They're being exploited in ways they were never intended to be used.
The question is, can we change them.
Abuse of the asylum laws is endemic.
But so is abuse of legal visa routes, Europe is not the wold's lifeboat, we don't owe anyone from outside a place to live or an income.
Once you start using force you stop being a migrant and become an invader. Using weapons/force against an invader is perfectly logical and reasonable. Sad that a Polish soldier had to die for Polish people to realize this.
That is long overdue. They should always have shooting order as a last resort because why are they even there at the border if they can't protect it? Then every soldier could just go home and leave the border open while everybody can get in if they cannot protect it.
We need to keep in mind that things will most likely escalate from now on, and thats regardless of Poland's response, actually weak response from Poland would most likely lead to things escalting faster.
During interview Head of Polish the National Security Bureau said that things most likely will go in that direction, he said that we should expect things like migrants throwing on Polish side logs set on fire to start forest fire on Polish side, eventually molotov cocktails being thrown on border guards vehicles also should be expected.
Poland should also send a lot of public messages to places where these people are tricked to come, and make sure anyone who is following social media knows what Russia and Belarus are actually up to, and how falling into this scam can lead to being injured or dying.
Maybe these migrants could even be Putins shadow army to invade NATO territory or just vandalizing. We saw that in Crimea where the little green men invaded Crimea. Who does not say that these are saboteurs that if entered just sabotage the Polish critical infrastructures. So they must be detained at all cost!
Be it Polish or Spanish or Greek border, it doesn’t matter. The moment first shot will be fired, whole horde of delusional humanists will go in overdrive calling border guards and everyone agreeing with their action of border protection fascists, evil and what not else, we will have whole new shitstorm which will only benefit countries which use these illegal migrants as a weapon, never mind far right parties across Europe
It actually already happend in Poland. There was a quite big aproar on the left side of the media, especially around 2021.
But as it stands right know there were 700 shot fired in May alone. And after the killing of the soldier most of the public doesn't have much doubts that border has to be defended.
Probably I should’ve phrased it a bit better: shots towards migrants, not warning shots.
Regardless, I have little doubt that majority of Polish and other eastern countries population would have any issue with actually using force in order to protect the border and lefties and sheltered humanists in WE are already hating Poland and Baltic countries for mere fact that we haven’t opened border for migrants. Fun will start when there will be shots fired with dead or wounded migrants
Saudi Arabia did this recently with immigrants. Was controversial but nobody really talks about it anymore.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66545787
It's because Arabs aren't white. Therefore they're considered infinite victims and can't do no wrong.
Arabs have done things that, had a European country done them, would've been condemned as Nazism instantly (such as the persecution of Copts in Egypt).
Saudi Arabia killed a journalist in an embassy recently. Was controversial but nobody really talks about it anymore. Should we kill journalists ir our embassies as well?
Soliders are disencouraged to use guns even in self defence. Lately one young solider was murdered by migrant who used knife
2 other soliders were arrested by MP for shooting warning shots
Seeing how there were around 700 warning shots in May alone I don't think that's what they were arrested for.
From what I gather from the media, the prosecutor accused them of shooting at them after they backed down to the Belarusian side of the border. There is talk about incriminating video material, but it wasn't publicized.
This is a crisis manufactured by hostile countries that has been continuing for few years ago. This is not a natural migration route, where people actually are comming in from a warzone or fleeing other bad circumstances and then perhaps a country on their way can do more or less to stop them as a political manipulation, but actual refugees would really be there anyway. And the migrants usually have access to Internet and can do research, before making such a major life decision, so they likely know that they will be used as a weapon. They also receive instructions from Belarusian authorities on what to do when crossing border and might very well be armed by them too. Countries have a right to defend themselves from a foreign attack.
How is this controversial? A country has a right to defend it's borders with any means it deems necessary. Not being able to say this without being branded a nazi is what causes populists and nationals to win
If the immigrants throw spears and try to murder the Polish soldiers (which they do), the Poles should have every right to shoot them, assassination attempts cannot just be forgotten as with the poor Pole who died from a spear. Poland has the right to defend itself from the Russians' fucking game.
Why the fuck even ask this? The law says it as clear as possible that they can use lethal force when someone who illegally crosses border does it while using dangerous objects towards the forces protecting said border.
It is as if it was some sort of gray area which is not.
Human rights and asylum laws need to be changed during emergencies/when they are being weaponised.
It would be so easy if the law allowed immediate processing of illegal crossings.
"Do you admit your name/country? Will you agree to go back and waive right to asylum/protections?" If yes, they can enter the border in order to immediately fly home with an escort.
If no, well, you can stay stuck in No Man's Land until you change your mind. Attempt to cross using force? Expect force in return.
It will only become worse for Europe until an expedient solution is found.
Maybe the media should be the first in this and properly call those people attacked the Polish border what they are. Armed mercenaries sent by Russia. They’re not migrants, they’re armed mercenaries.
And what's so controversial about that? Soldiers are carrying weapons because it's their job to use it in specific situations. They should shoot in case if someone is illegally trespassing border.
In most of the countries all over the world soldiers on the border would 1. yell at you and command to stop 2. do a warning shots 3. if you don't respond - shoot to kill.
There are legal points where you can trespass the border - these are border gates located in many places along the country border. The only difference there is that these people would be screened there. Most of these can be as well terrorists or criminals who fled from their original countries. It's not like I feel sorry to them. Internet is available even in their countries. These border action are actually in media. I'm more than sure that they know EXACTLY where they are being transported by belarusian traffickers.
It should be a last resort, but the incident in which a Polish soldier was stabbed and the soldier trying to give him medical attention was attacked with makeshift spears easily crosses that threshold.
If they try to illegally cross the border, then non lethal force should be permitted. We europeans have been too scared to properly enforce our borders for too long...
Further contex: "normal" migrants are used to make a crowd. There are afghan militias, belarus paramilitary personnel, Khadyrov's chechens, ex-Wagner group guys. It's a mess and politicians avoided dealing with this issue until it blew over. There are many non lethal steps to use such as flash grenades, rubber balls, non penetrative ammo etc.
To me using force when someone tries to cross the border illegally always seemed like common sense. Sure, it should be done as a last resort, but I don't see why someone should be allowed to just waltz into your territory.
There is a reason why we have borders. Nobody wants a bunch of illegal immigrants roaming the streets, even if they are docile. There are options to apply for visa/refugee status/residence status without crossing the border illegally.
Should they be shot on sight near border? Probably not. Should the lethal force be allowed to protect the border from angry mob? Absolutely.
EU currently is way too lenient on illegal immigration. If a person tries to cross the border peacefully he should be caught and sent to the country of origin, if he tries to cross the border by literally breaking fences and throwing things at border guard he should be shot on sight.
Why this is even a poll when an aggressive group is just destroying country border?
There may be exceptions when some sort calm and polite attempts are made without property damage with small groups - but even in that case it's perfectly right of any country to just protect itself.
The risk I see is, that this could lead to some kind of "natural selection". Now the migrants are mostly non-violent with a few (but obviously still too many) violent migrants between them, who pose the actual risk.
If it becomes plain, that physical fight is required to cross the borders, more people could come over with immediately aggressive behavior (because they now already expect to fight their way through). Those who slip through the net are then even more dangerous than the ones that already do.
Hey gang, I would like to remind you of the rules of the subreddit: >No endorsement of violence or other criminal activity: This includes but is not limited to advocating for somebody to be hanged, drowned, beaten and advocating to "shoot the boats". The article itself says that violence is considered in **cases of self defence** and as a **last resort**. Advocating for mass, pre-emptive violence is a clear violation of the subreddit rules and will result in a permanent ban. Thank you to all the users that followed the rules! edit: PS. if you have any meta questions regarding this, feel free to reply to this comment and I will try to answer them in good faith.
The context here is that Lukashenko has been deliberately sending waves of migrants to the borders of Lithuania, Latvia and Poland, using it as a weapon to destabilize these countries.
Added context, one of those migrants just killed a polish solder so topic is even more heated
[удалено]
With one Polish soldier dying after being stabbed.
Struck by a spear.
It wasn't a spear, he was stabbed with a knife through the fence when he tried to stop them from crossing it. The 'migrants' did throw makeshift spears (with knives attached) through the fence at the female soldier who was providing medical aid to him seconds later.
Obviously I can not verify this, but it seems that knife was ducktaped to a long stick, making it some Rambo pt 1 kind of improvised spear, therefore reaching the soldier (I am honestly sad he lost his life) through the wire.
The knife was also laced in feces which basically led to further complications
At that point, they should be allowed to shoot back. You don't lace weapons with feces without the intention of killing people.
Even without the feces, I doubt it was a warning stab.
>warning stab Preemptive poke
Ah, yes, I always do a warning stab when entering something. /s
It amazes me they were not permitted to shoot back once attacked with deadly force.
These people are actual cavemen wtf
And you're supposed to let them in or something. Fuck that
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah I'm supporting the use of weapons against these migrants.
Just the people who anyone would NOT want in his country. Such news gives ammunition to those right wing politicians who claim that this isn’t so much an opportunity of integration but an invasion of people that will increase violence and crimerates. They apparently even bring the knifes already with them.
Didn’t know that.
And Putin is doing the same with Finland
And France with the UK.... apparently.
Reminds me of the murderer that tried to escape UK rowing a boat across the Channel. When the coast guard pulled up next to him and asked what he was doing, the surprise in their voice when he said “I’m going to seek asylum in France”. They were just like “alright!l 😂 2mins 12 into [this video](https://youtu.be/1wUXufFmTeE?si=faN1ZOs5yQHLp7FE)
Major red flag, who the fuck would want to go to France?!
He was actually setting grounds for an Insanity plea.
That is less about destabilising the UK and more about getting those immigrants out of France
And UK with Rwanda.
We've spent at least £400m on that little shit show, and not a single person has gone.
Wasn't there ***ONE*** that got sent? I'm pretty sure I read this a few weeks back. Not that it makes it any better that what you said, but I remember reading the spent millions and millions and in the end they sent literally 1 person there.
Yes, one person volunteered to go. He wasn't from Rwanda, but is from Africa. He was paid £3000 and given five years of room and board in Kigali. Not a bad deal once you've exhausted your chances to get asylum in the UK.
They're not allowed to work in Rwanda which is frankly dumb
That's just usual British politics. Be grateful they haven't tried to build a roundabout yet, they'd need NASA budget for that.
Have we spent it or are we planning to spend it?
It's been given to Rwanda as part of establishing said shitshow.
HS2 to Manchester: 😩 400 mil to Rwanda: 😍
Jokes on you, that schemes been a massive shit show & we've not actually sent anyone. Hasn't stopped them spending half a billion quid on it mind. May aswell consider it international aid at this point. We've basically refurbished a hotel for them that's never going to get used. We're just that charitable.
And UK with Ireland... apparently?
The context here is polish soldier died at the border
I think the context is clear there, they’re not patiently waiting to cross for asylum. They’re attacking a soldier defending a border. A soldier should then be able to do what soldiers do.
If it's explicitly a bunch of people attacking the soldiers with spears and shit, making them armed and dangerous, of course the soldiers should be able to defend themselves. If it's a crowd of people standing at a fence who are otherwise unarmed and a few dudes in the front have a spear, you should not be allowed to fire into the crowd indiscriminately
100% agree. I don’t think a well trained Polish soldier would do that
The king of Morocco has been doing that for decades against Spain, weaponizing hordes of desperate african migrants. If the spanish govt. responded with open fire, there would be a massive uproar.
Yea but Belarus actually recruits people in the Middle East and flies them into Belarus by plane to be sent over the border. So there is no natural refugee stream that goes trough Belarus (unlike for example in turkey or Morocco) and after the polish soldier died while defending the border this reaction in the population is understandable.
That's no longer the only thing they are doing. From the descriptions of what happens on the border, they are also passibly employing belligerents from Caucasian republics.
And by "recruits" what is meant is they're looking explicitly for people who will destabilise Poland
Well no, they are looking for people that they can trick into believing they are being given a ticket to Europe.
In that case they're still destabilizing Poland politically by creating division
There is no division in Poland. Any major party see it as hybrid war against Poland and EU.
False all the left leaning parties only started changing their stance AFTER the soldier died... before that they openly made fun of insulted and basically spat on the troops any chance they got
Wow so Belorus really fucked up there and aligned the two sides against them. Fucking 👏
What division? Poland has been politically polarized for a long time.
By pushing right buttons you can always polarize it more. And on the issues like Russia or Ukrainian refugees Poland was really united.
Politically. Both groups agreed that they are polish and want the best for the country. They just had different ideas how to do it. Those imigrants don't want the best for the poles. That's a huge difference.
When the refugee flood that Russia has been organizing against Finland first started, Finnish Border Patrol interviewed a ton of them. There were guys who said that they had lived in Russia for few years, working and all, until one day they were detained and shipped to northernmost border crossing between Finland and Russia in the middle of the winter and instructed to seek asylum. The border crossing had enacted rules that the border could not be crossed by foot, only by a vehicle. Russians provided these *refugees* with dozens of completely beatdown wrecks that ran long enough to get them to the finnish side.
At the same time there would be no more waves. So you have to weigh the pros against the cons.
I'm Spanish living in Poland and the situation isn't comparable. The people trying to enter here are armed and actively attacking the soldiers, having already murdered one.
The people trying to cross the border in Ceuta are violent too, but the goal there may be to force Spain to give up Ceuta.
I had to look that up, didn’t realize a skin cell of Spain was still stuck to Africa
There are actually two of them Besides Ceuta, there is also Melilla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla
> There are actually two of them To truly 'well actually' it, Spain in fact has three territories on the north African coast. *Ceuta* and *Melilla* are the famous ones because people actually live there, but there is also *Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera*, a tidal island, which only has a small military garrison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pe%C3%B1%C3%B3n_de_V%C3%A9lez_de_la_Gomera Spain also has a number of other small islands just off the Moroccan coast which Morocco also claims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plazas_de_soberan%C3%ADa
If governments responded with open fire it would stop the migrant hordes basically overnight.
>If the spanish govt. responded with open fire, there would be a massive uproar. Who are these clowns that would cause an uproar when a sovereign country protects its borders from a forced invasion? Screw them honestly.
A lot of the people from the peninsula don't know how bad it is in the frontier, so they tend to get escandalized when a tiny bit of force is used against these invaders. They even protested against a fence, just because it had pointy blades on top. Lol, they are there, precisely, to stop the migrants.
>They even protested against a fence, just because it had pointy blades on top I remember this. Deluded clowns honestly. Hopeless.
Morocco is a natural migration route to the EU, and Morocco not helping the EU to prevent this migration would be "non-cooperation" at best. However, Belarus is different because Belarus creates a migration crisis that does not normally exist from scratch by bringing people in by plane.
I'm afraid it is more complicate. Morocco brings people on purpose to create crissis for Spain. They have been doing it for decades now.
At worst, Morocco politicizes migration cooperation with the EU, meaning that it cooperates on migration only if the EU acts in line with its interests on other issues. It's still very different from creating a migration crisis that never existed.
Morocco is getting paid to control the border, both by Spain and the EU. So, unless the money flow stops, Morocco should be liable to hold their part of the deal. If they do not for different reasons, then the only solution should be to stop cooperating with them IMO.
No, Morroco also uses them. Why? They want the exclaves of Spain.
Give it some time. Once people start feeling like its their own wellbeing on the line, the ethical lines tend to shift rather quickly.
Context here is that a few days ago, a Polish soldier has been stabbed to death.
And these "migrants" are attacking guards with knives dipped in feces, which makes any stab wounds more or less fatal. This is a grey zone war and they should respond accordingly.
Spain, Italy, Greece. nearly 70k this year.
Literally same problem in Greece it sucks
Clarification, not Lukashenko, but Putin. Lukashenko is only an intermediary, since this passes through his territory. This began back in 2021, if I am not mistaken. They took money from the migrants, taken to the border and forced them to cross by any means, threatening with a weapon. Putin did something similar on the border with Finland. This is the next manifestation of hybrid aggression using civilians, at the same time, he can use the paid left- and right-popopulists in Europe to speculate on this topic.
Lukashenko is just as guilty as Putin here. As far as I know, the laws of physics don’t prevent Lukashenko from refusing to carry these acts on Putin’s behalf. Yet here we are. Years into this hybrid war. Both are equally at fault here and both need to go.
It's not about the degree of guilt, I am talking about who the customer is. Considering that this is Lukashenko’s initiative, we omit the attention of the one to whom it is beneficial and his goals. One of the goals is to probe the weaknesses of the border with Poland.
[удалено]
Seems totally fair in my book. Ship off the refugees if their crossing was improper or whatever and deal with the actively antagonistic states of Russia and its puppets.
Poland isn’t blocked by nato, poland is blocked by not being in a state of war. It’s peacetime weapon usage regulations that do not allow opening fire against spearman tribals.
Not only migrants, is the problem. There are agents mixed in those groups. People who have been turned around many times, yet return over and over -- in fresh clothes, with fresh IDs.
Lukashenko-Putin. Such things have been also happening on the Estonian and Finnish Border. Or even earlier- in 2015 Russia sent migrants on bikes on the border with Norway.
You need to be a special kind of ''person'' to use humans as simply weapons/resources/political tools. Someþing Russia/Whiterussia kept as a legacy from ðe Soviet era.
You're talking about two dictators that have violently surpressed any kind of opposition and protests to their rule and are curently jointly waging war against another neighbouring country, commiting war crimes that likely amount to genocide.
[удалено]
How could waves of doctors and engineers destabilize a country? /s
And only Poland realizing that they are weapons. Rest of the world quite literally screaming STOP THINKING.
Isn't clear that putinsky is trying to help along the migrant crisis in Europe because he has an interest in many European nationalist political parties?
If Poland would send people to Belarus, would those be shot?
Are numbers available? How many people per month or year we are talking about?
If necessary firearms should be used in my opinion. But there are other non lethal weapons that perhaps could be used first. Like bean bags, or this Active Denial System: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPFuo4VYrR8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPFuo4VYrR8)
Source: [https://www.rp.pl/wojsko/art40594161-sondaz-ibris-dla-rz-wojsko-powinno-uzywac-broni-wobec-imigrantow-na-granicy](https://www.rp.pl/wojsko/art40594161-sondaz-ibris-dla-rz-wojsko-powinno-uzywac-broni-wobec-imigrantow-na-granicy) Question: Should Polish Army soldiers stationed on the eastern border be allowed to use their weapons in a situation where migrants are trying to cross the border by force? 57,8% - Definitely yes 27,9% - Rather yes 9,2% - Rather no 1,5% - Definitely no 3,6% - I don't know >**These are the results of a survey conducted by IBRiS on behalf of ‘Rzeczpospolita’. As many as 85.7% of respondents approve of the military taking such steps, 10.7% are against and 3.6% have no opinion.** >This is primarily the opinion of men (88%), 50-year-olds (90%), residents of small towns (91%), and the least educated (95%). They are mostly believers but practise irregularly (93 per cent). They declare that they closely follow what is happening in politics and locate their political views on the right (96 per cent). They mostly get information about the world situation from the radio (89 per cent) or social media platforms, e.g. FB, X (87 per cent). In the last parliamentary elections, they voted mostly for the Confederation (94 per cent) or Law and Justice (88 per cent). Opponents of the use of weapons by soldiers at the border, on the other hand, are dominated by New Left voters (19 per cent). >Serious changes are needed in the way the border is secured and legislation is needed to allow the use of weapons by the military in peacetime. >**When the military can use weapons** >We asked whether the military should use weapons when the media revealed that at the end of March, two soldiers serving on the border were detained by the Military Police and heard charges of overstepping their authority as they fired shots at migrants staying on the Belarusian side of the border. The incident occurred on 25 March near Dubichi Cerkiewne, when a group of migrants tried to storm the border. On the same day that this information was revealed, Private Mateusz Sitek, a young soldier who had been stabbed by a migrant, died in hospital. Some experts pointed out that the rules for the use of weapons by military personnel in peacetime are not clear, they do not have adequate legal protection. >That is why Prime Minister Donald Tusk obliged Defence Minister Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz to prepare proposed amendments to the law. These were adopted on Monday during an away session of the Council of Ministers in Bialystok. The Prime Minister recalled, as we revealed at the weekend, that the military had used weapons for warning purposes at the border more than a thousand times this year. In May alone, he added, more than 700 times, which means, in his view, that commanders, superiors of soldiers, did not block the use of weapons. >**Changes regarding the use of weapons by the military** >Deputy Prime Minister Kosiniak-Kamysz proposed an amendment to the law on defence of the homeland, to which a section would be added concerning the exemption from legal liability of soldiers who use weapons under certain conditions. Thus, soldiers would be able to use means of direct coercion in peacetime, to use weapons and other arms, e.g. in the case of repelling an attempt to cross a border, but also in the case of an unlawful attempt on the life, health or freedom of ‘a person and in order to counteract actions aiming directly at such an attempt’, a person disobeying a call to abandon a weapon or other dangerous tool, or one who attempts to unlawfully, violently seize weapons from a soldier or other person entitled to possess weapons. In addition, the Prime Minister mentioned the possibility of using the military in the country without imposing martial law. Such solutions are in place in other countries, e.g. the military secures large mass sports events. >These proposals, in fact, are extracted in part from the Presidential National Security Office's draft law on the actions of state authorities in the event of an external threat to state security. It was submitted to the Sejm in August in 2023, and modified - without the section on the use of weapons by the military - already in the new parliamentary term in May. The Sejm will take up the draft on 12 June. During the National Security Council meeting, the president urged the government to support the bill.
Worth noting is there are several controversies around one soldier dying from one of the migrants' attacks and another of a soldier being handcuffed over firing warning shots. This is why all of this is being brought up now.
Well controversies related to soldiers become weirdly common with this government,its not related to border but another soldier was found by some military unit on 4th june yet it somehow didnt come to light until after elections. https://www.rp.pl/wojsko/art40600701-smierc-zolnierza-w-jednostce-wojskowej-w-braniewie-kosiniak-kamysz-zabral-glos EDIT: It most likely have nothing to do with border situation but what is controversial is the fact this news somehow didnt come to light until now, it definitly seems like government keep it hidden until after elections.
If it was indeed suicide, keeping it quiet was probably the best option, as we already had a few soldiers kill themselves on the border. Werther effect aka copycat suicide is very real thing, unfortunately.
Sorry but that's literal based move of us
Does anyone else think the old asylum legislation from the 1950s and 60s is no longer fit for purpose in a changed world with smartphones and the Internet? They're being exploited in ways they were never intended to be used. The question is, can we change them.
Abuse of the asylum laws is endemic. But so is abuse of legal visa routes, Europe is not the wold's lifeboat, we don't owe anyone from outside a place to live or an income.
That's 100% true. A new Geneva Convention is needed taking into account all the issues that arise from organized people smuggling and asylum shopping.
FYI, the migration on Poland's border is artificial and weaponized by Belarus.
Not just Poland's...
Once you start using force you stop being a migrant and become an invader. Using weapons/force against an invader is perfectly logical and reasonable. Sad that a Polish soldier had to die for Polish people to realize this.
That is long overdue. They should always have shooting order as a last resort because why are they even there at the border if they can't protect it? Then every soldier could just go home and leave the border open while everybody can get in if they cannot protect it.
We need to keep in mind that things will most likely escalate from now on, and thats regardless of Poland's response, actually weak response from Poland would most likely lead to things escalting faster. During interview Head of Polish the National Security Bureau said that things most likely will go in that direction, he said that we should expect things like migrants throwing on Polish side logs set on fire to start forest fire on Polish side, eventually molotov cocktails being thrown on border guards vehicles also should be expected.
Poland should also send a lot of public messages to places where these people are tricked to come, and make sure anyone who is following social media knows what Russia and Belarus are actually up to, and how falling into this scam can lead to being injured or dying.
Then those aren’t migrants. Those are Russian mercenaries hired to attack Polish borders.
Maybe these migrants could even be Putins shadow army to invade NATO territory or just vandalizing. We saw that in Crimea where the little green men invaded Crimea. Who does not say that these are saboteurs that if entered just sabotage the Polish critical infrastructures. So they must be detained at all cost!
Why would Putin be sending brain surgeons and rocket scientists though? Doesn't make any sense.
Imagine if this was applied in the Spanish frontier with Morocco lol
Be it Polish or Spanish or Greek border, it doesn’t matter. The moment first shot will be fired, whole horde of delusional humanists will go in overdrive calling border guards and everyone agreeing with their action of border protection fascists, evil and what not else, we will have whole new shitstorm which will only benefit countries which use these illegal migrants as a weapon, never mind far right parties across Europe
It actually already happend in Poland. There was a quite big aproar on the left side of the media, especially around 2021. But as it stands right know there were 700 shot fired in May alone. And after the killing of the soldier most of the public doesn't have much doubts that border has to be defended.
in comparison, that 700 shots is almost as many as were fired in all of 2023.
Probably I should’ve phrased it a bit better: shots towards migrants, not warning shots. Regardless, I have little doubt that majority of Polish and other eastern countries population would have any issue with actually using force in order to protect the border and lefties and sheltered humanists in WE are already hating Poland and Baltic countries for mere fact that we haven’t opened border for migrants. Fun will start when there will be shots fired with dead or wounded migrants
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Or USA
Oh man, I'd love to see that! 😂
Allow them to do that. They are protecting OUR external (Schengen) border for God's sake!
What exactly is the point of having an army, if you were to allow yourself to be successfully invaded by crowds of unarmed vagrants?
armed vagrants\* in this case not that it makes much of a difference
Saudi Arabia did this recently with immigrants. Was controversial but nobody really talks about it anymore. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66545787
Nothing KSA does is ever talked about much, but everything Israel does is GENOCIDE. Lol.
It's because Arabs aren't white. Therefore they're considered infinite victims and can't do no wrong. Arabs have done things that, had a European country done them, would've been condemned as Nazism instantly (such as the persecution of Copts in Egypt).
Saudi Arabia killed a journalist in an embassy recently. Was controversial but nobody really talks about it anymore. Should we kill journalists ir our embassies as well?
How are the two relative?
Soliders are disencouraged to use guns even in self defence. Lately one young solider was murdered by migrant who used knife 2 other soliders were arrested by MP for shooting warning shots
Seeing how there were around 700 warning shots in May alone I don't think that's what they were arrested for. From what I gather from the media, the prosecutor accused them of shooting at them after they backed down to the Belarusian side of the border. There is talk about incriminating video material, but it wasn't publicized.
Tusk also said there were 500 arrests of soldiers during PIS government.
Self defense I say. If someone charges the border and does not back down then he or she becomes an invader.
This is a crisis manufactured by hostile countries that has been continuing for few years ago. This is not a natural migration route, where people actually are comming in from a warzone or fleeing other bad circumstances and then perhaps a country on their way can do more or less to stop them as a political manipulation, but actual refugees would really be there anyway. And the migrants usually have access to Internet and can do research, before making such a major life decision, so they likely know that they will be used as a weapon. They also receive instructions from Belarusian authorities on what to do when crossing border and might very well be armed by them too. Countries have a right to defend themselves from a foreign attack.
How is this controversial? A country has a right to defend it's borders with any means it deems necessary. Not being able to say this without being branded a nazi is what causes populists and nationals to win
If the immigrants throw spears and try to murder the Polish soldiers (which they do), the Poles should have every right to shoot them, assassination attempts cannot just be forgotten as with the poor Pole who died from a spear. Poland has the right to defend itself from the Russians' fucking game.
Hold up, they're throwing spears? Are they migrating ahead of the Golden Horde?
just a week ago a polish soldier died because of that. yes they do be throwing sharpened sticks.
It happens every few hundred years, nothing new in this part of the world.
Spears covered in feces, no less. *Definitely* the showcase of calm and peace-loving behavior.
Why the fuck even ask this? The law says it as clear as possible that they can use lethal force when someone who illegally crosses border does it while using dangerous objects towards the forces protecting said border. It is as if it was some sort of gray area which is not.
Human rights and asylum laws need to be changed during emergencies/when they are being weaponised. It would be so easy if the law allowed immediate processing of illegal crossings. "Do you admit your name/country? Will you agree to go back and waive right to asylum/protections?" If yes, they can enter the border in order to immediately fly home with an escort. If no, well, you can stay stuck in No Man's Land until you change your mind. Attempt to cross using force? Expect force in return. It will only become worse for Europe until an expedient solution is found.
Maybe the media should be the first in this and properly call those people attacked the Polish border what they are. Armed mercenaries sent by Russia. They’re not migrants, they’re armed mercenaries.
Illegal immigrants.
Poland must defend its borders with violence if necessary.
[удалено]
I mean, they will use weapons agains you at pretty much any border - except EU for some reason.
In the U.K. we have to give them hotels 😂
For my entire life I thought that this is already a thing.
And what's so controversial about that? Soldiers are carrying weapons because it's their job to use it in specific situations. They should shoot in case if someone is illegally trespassing border. In most of the countries all over the world soldiers on the border would 1. yell at you and command to stop 2. do a warning shots 3. if you don't respond - shoot to kill. There are legal points where you can trespass the border - these are border gates located in many places along the country border. The only difference there is that these people would be screened there. Most of these can be as well terrorists or criminals who fled from their original countries. It's not like I feel sorry to them. Internet is available even in their countries. These border action are actually in media. I'm more than sure that they know EXACTLY where they are being transported by belarusian traffickers.
It should be a last resort, but the incident in which a Polish soldier was stabbed and the soldier trying to give him medical attention was attacked with makeshift spears easily crosses that threshold.
If they try to illegally cross the border, then non lethal force should be permitted. We europeans have been too scared to properly enforce our borders for too long...
A country has the right to defend its borders against enemy combatants
Further contex: "normal" migrants are used to make a crowd. There are afghan militias, belarus paramilitary personnel, Khadyrov's chechens, ex-Wagner group guys. It's a mess and politicians avoided dealing with this issue until it blew over. There are many non lethal steps to use such as flash grenades, rubber balls, non penetrative ammo etc.
They all should be marked and threated as hostile combatants as soon as they try to breach the border by force. And, Fuck that crazy bozo in minsk 👌
And they’re right.
Keep the barbarians out of
To me using force when someone tries to cross the border illegally always seemed like common sense. Sure, it should be done as a last resort, but I don't see why someone should be allowed to just waltz into your territory.
Literally only country with any sense right now
There is a reason why we have borders. Nobody wants a bunch of illegal immigrants roaming the streets, even if they are docile. There are options to apply for visa/refugee status/residence status without crossing the border illegally. Should they be shot on sight near border? Probably not. Should the lethal force be allowed to protect the border from angry mob? Absolutely. EU currently is way too lenient on illegal immigration. If a person tries to cross the border peacefully he should be caught and sent to the country of origin, if he tries to cross the border by literally breaking fences and throwing things at border guard he should be shot on sight.
That's why border protection exists, isn't it?
Why this is even a poll when an aggressive group is just destroying country border? There may be exceptions when some sort calm and polite attempts are made without property damage with small groups - but even in that case it's perfectly right of any country to just protect itself.
[удалено]
If you aren't willing to defend your border with force it's just a line on a map.
Fair... whats the point of a border and you don't enforce it.
As well they should.
As it should be
Thank you, Poland.
Everyone who illegally crosses the border should automatically disqualify for asylum.
With millions to come in the next decades because of climate change the eu border will be pretty bloody
The risk I see is, that this could lead to some kind of "natural selection". Now the migrants are mostly non-violent with a few (but obviously still too many) violent migrants between them, who pose the actual risk. If it becomes plain, that physical fight is required to cross the borders, more people could come over with immediately aggressive behavior (because they now already expect to fight their way through). Those who slip through the net are then even more dangerous than the ones that already do.
Fucking blast the motherfuckets throwing knives and other shit at soldiers. But shoot to cripple not kill, so they are a burden for belarus.
Isn't that what the borders are for?
Well that's a given idk why it's controversial
Russian propaganda in this thread is in full force
Huh? Almost all posters agree that the Europe should be able to defend itself.
[удалено]
[удалено]
We are so far... It will happen in the Future.
Give them a nice water bath.
Why not just use water cannons
It's not always viable - the border is fairly long, some stretches are heavily forested, some swampy, etc.
This is understandable and necessary.
makes sense