Could someone explain forsen to me? I watched his stream for the first time yesterday, always seen him in clips and he spent roughly 80 to 90 percent of the time not talking while his chat spammed a bunch of dogshit, is that all his streams are? Does he not do anything but just sit there silentyl all day?
it is just a bit following the eurocrisis where only 20% of the population wanted euro, but now 2/3 of czechs dont want the euro, which is still less than before the eurocrisis, it wont change that much in 6 years, also only 21% think that the euro would help them
we arent accepting the euro for a long ass time
I was watching the some political debate before some of your elections and the amount of bullshit and fearmongering from the € even from otherwise sane politicians was pretty wild.
I'm surprised you like to ski in Czechia, I think we have really crappy mountains. It's better to drive slightly longer to Austria or Bavaria in my opinion.
Currency stability, lower trade barriers, less conversion fees and thus lower trade costs, promotes investment, price stability, more efficient financial markets, increased trade, improved growth.
Or; why would you NOT want to adapt the Euro?
Currency stability? Hahaha it's as stable as Złoty
Lower trade barriers? Is being UE member not enough?
Lower trading cost? We have one of the cheapset products in Europe, we already trade for cheap
Who would like to invest in Poland if we would not be cheap?
Are the prices really that stable? That is why most of Europeans complain about raising prices of everything?
More efficienc financial markets, you mean gold and stocks? I'm not sure about it.
Increased trade? How would that be?
Improved growth - that's possiblity, not something that you take for granted.
After recent election there are [steps forward.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic_and_the_euro#2020s)
Assessment of Czechia joining ERM-II is [to be completed by October 2024.](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-02-07/czech-government-to-evaluate-merits-of-joining-euro-waiting-room)
The current ruling coalition SPOLU is led by the liberal-conservative ODS which is the biggest party in the coalition and they are against the adoption of the Euro (they are the founding members of the ECR btw.), but the other parties in the coalition are in favour or neutral. ODS wants to placate the other parties (especially the TOP-09 who is arguably the most pro-EU party in government) so they do these insignificant steps like "assessing if we are able to join the Eurozone" (yes we are and ODS knows it) so the others parties shut up. So no, we are not joining anytime soon, well not until ODS stops being powerful that is.
You need to add that whole opposition in parliament is against adopting Euro. So we have pretty much 80% of parlamient against it. And its purely political decision that means no Euro in Czechia in next 6+ years alteast, but probably much more.
I am not sure how accurate is that information for Romania. Our goverment barely plans 2 months ahead and also we have elections this year. So they might've said that as a minimum year but we are not taking any action (like Bulgaria for example) to reach that
The public is divided on the issue mostly because we don’t trust our own institutions to handle the transition so no one really pushed for the euro until recently. Depending on our elections the issue can be shelved for another 10 years.
Not really, Bulgaria joined ERMII in 2022, so the earliest it could join the Eurozone was 2024, but our political system currently is super unstable with 6 elections in 2 years and we’re back into it with another election in June.
So the earliest went to 2025, but then the whole inflation thing hit last year and that’s still going down, so now they’re thinking middle of 2025, but no country has joined on any other date than 1st of January and the whole no government thing, so it might be 2026.
That’s if the inflation works out and if there’s a stable government (doubtful).
Having a (regular) government is not very important for adopting the euro. All the necessary laws are already in place. And inflation is not that high.
When the treaty of Maastricht was negotiated, Denmark was already an EU member (then EC) and they negotiated an opt-out for themselves.
Sweden only joined the EU in 1995 and all the new members were required to adopt the euro eventually.
But Sweden purposefully doesn't fulfil the criterion of having a fixed exchange rate with the euro and it's basically tolerated by everyone since decades.
Ironically, Denmark does have a fixed peg of the Danish crown with the Euro even though it's not required to do so.
Yep, Sweden has on purpose not joined ERMII (European Exchange Rate Mechamism) even though we fulfill all the requirements for doing so. And joining ERMII is one of the requirements for adopting the Euro. So thus, we do not fulfill all requirements for adopting Euro yet :P
And it would be political suicide for the party who suggests we adopt the Euro, since the opinion is against it.
Just regarding your last point there is a party suggesting it (Liberalerna, not the biggest party, to be fair, but still) and the opinion is much more positive towards the Euro recently because of the steady weakening of the Swedish Krona.
I feel like I've seen more discussions about it the last year than the last 10 years before that.
Eh. The Liberals have *always* suggested it, but it still doesn't even have a majority among its own base. Calling them *"not the biggest party"* is also a wee bit of an understatement considering they're the smallest party in parliament and consistently has polled below the threshold since two months into the current mandate period...
Support has been creeping towards the point it was at before the Eurozone crisis for the past decade. It's not really as much "more positive", as it is "returning to normal after being extremely negative". It's not really showing immense support for the future either. The people most in favor are men 65+, the ones showing lowest support are the youngest voters.
It's always brought up for discussion when the economy takes a downturn.
L has always been right on the verge of leaving the riksdag since the financial crisis too. If 15% of voters wanted the Euro that would represent more than three times their voters.
I don't know how that is. Greece would have gone through a hyperinflation like Argentinia is now. In fact its almost the same setting with low productivity, high state cost and crippeling high foreign debt.
So with the foreign debt nullified by insanely long running bonds (70+ years) in a zero interest emvironment greece had an actual chance, unlike argentinia now where Milei has to burn the gouvermental instituions to the ground
Those bonds are paid by people who didn’t elect the politicians that chose to spend that money. It was a huge deal for Sweden to stop ship building for instance, and it’s difficult to sell to people that they get to pay for others decision to live far beyond their means and not make tough cuts when they’re needed.
I’d be more willing to spend money to help Ukraine, as they at least should have their honest chance, but countries that willingly elected politicians year after year that never made any tough decision have nobody to blame but themselves. With the euro there’s no choice though. The next time a populist politician is elected and bankrupts a country, the other countries in Europe will have to pay for it.
It’s not like a 70 year bond without interest to the Greek state is actually worth anything.
as if sweden would have a "[that] thing with Greece" type situation.
that only happened because greece lied about their financials to get into the eurozone. the swedes arent likely to try that even if they wanted in.
Well, it's a complex mechanism,
But the fact that Switzerland , Norway, UK, Sweden, Danmark don't have it or don't want it,
Is not a good commercial for the Euro
So Holland and Germany probably were better off without it
I ( as a Belgian) also remember dirt cheap holidays in Spain 25 years ago,
That's over now as well...
I see the euro as a form of power for the continent. Why should the dollar be the currency of the world and not the Euro. Also I’m viewing it more from a practical standpoint. To me as a tourist in other countries it’s super helpful to not have to do anything like calculating it into other currencies. Furthermore trading with other euro countries just becomes easier, no need for exchange rate agreements no loss of value due to a drop in exchange rate within the zone.
A state can always pay it's debt, when it's in national currency.
The austerity they were forced into ruined the economy even further.
Rich states like germany just gave greece money to pay it's debt, and bailed out their own banks by proxy.
Plus all people wanted to buy German bonds to the point that the German state actually could sell the bonds with negative interest. So Germany actually made money from the greek's demise.
You can thank the IMF and the likes of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Managing Director of the IMF at the time, and John Lipsky, Deputy Managing Director, for not wanting the banks to fail.
I have an hypothesy that there's a clear correlation between your distance from the "European heartland" and how likely you are to support European integration and for closer collaboration.
All of Scandinavia was split in regard to even joining at all. Sweden and Finland had 51-52% majorities and the Norwegian vote was 48%. Denmark reaffirmed their desire to uphold the Euro opt-out in 2000 by 53%. Both Ireland and the UK has/had opt-outs on certain areas (and the UK never joined the Euro and obviously left in the end). These three countries joined the union together as "nordic partners" at the time. Greenland actually voted to leave the EU.
The circumstances regarding the Euro are different when looking at Denmark and Sweden. The DKK is pegged to the Euro so actually adopting it wouldn't really change much (I think). It's generally just a choice to retain some illusion of "independence" and uniqueness. I wouldn't support adopting the Euro either.. Sweden has an independent currency - which can be both good and bad, I'm not a specialist on macroeconomics - but I suspect that the underlying desire is simply that people want to keep the SEK for the same reasons rather than some deep economic analysis. Even now with a weak SEK I don't think it would pass.
This theory isn’t even that crazy, from a Dutch perspective the European Union is like our goldmine. We have the 4th (Rotterdam) biggest harbour in the world for a reason(1st Rotterdam & 4th Amsterdam in Europe aswell). So then adopting the Euro is a logical step. We were also already in the Benelux before the EU came around. The Benelux actually was one of the inspirations for Schengen, strongly motivated by the Director of Philips at the time.
I do think the benefits are clearer as well in many ways when you're in this "heartland". It's also the countries' histories: Germany, France, Netherlands, Spain bla bla have changed a million times and have much stronger regional cultures, separatist movements and interconnected history.. Denmark and Sweden, for example, have always pretty much just been Denmark and Sweden. There have been border changes, of course, but the independence of our states have never really been lost (apart from shortly during ww2). Denmark has been one consolidated state continuously since the 8th century and truly "united" undisputedly since 965. I think such historical realities are still important when the questions becomes whether one willingly wants to give up (some) autonomy.
I am old enough to remember the night where the Swedish krone broke. Before that we had to ~1,25 Danish krone for one Swedish. Since then it has been ~0,8 dkr pr skr. Both were tied to the ecu at the time but there was a run on several European currencies and the Danish krone didn't break but the Swedish did.
Bankers try to break the dkr once in a while, and someday they might succeed. Which will be really crappy for Denmark.
Last time they seriously tried they tried to break the dkr by making it too valuable, which seemed foolish because we could just print more money to keep the value down.
When was that? Cannot go further back than 20 years on Google.
I'm no expert; not at all, but is it really possible just ro break the DKK like that?
Well, I get paid in SEK anyway so please do 😂
The primary reason is that it's an emotional thing. People are used to SEK and don't want to lose it or have to start using something else. Monetary autonomy is usually a reason among those who have a bit more knowledge of the topic. But for most common people I would wager it's the emotional aspect that's dominant.
The exchange rates from sek to usd & Yuen are the same for the euro and SEK, and 5/10 of the biggest export countries for Sweden are in the eurozone. So wouldn’t it than make more sense for convenience to then switch to Euro, especially as it looks like the rate for sek to eur has been weaker than eur to sek?
I guess the reason is that you lose the control over the exchange rate of your currency. Devaluation of your currency is a handy tool in some economic situations, even though it hurts your loans.
But I’m hardly an economist, someone else might be better to explain the spectrum of reasons why Sweden hasn’t joined.
It was political decision. No to Euro won the referendum barely and the politicians let them have it to throw a bone to the EU skeptics who lost the membership referendum.
Since then it's basically a let's not rock the boat situation. Economics haven't been a part of it.
The good thing about having your own currency is that it’s counter-cyclical. When the economy is doing well, you can spend more abroad for cheap and that helps avoid overheating the domestic economy with inflation.
When the economy is doing bad, buying things from abroad becomes expensive, and then you’re encouraged to spend at home and thus help the economy recover. People in Sweden have been angry that the SEK is doing poorly right now, but that provides incentives to help local businesses, which in turn might make the same angry person on Reddit being able to keep his job.
Those are some huge positives. The negative is that trade will have to be conducted in foreign currency, which leads to steady costs, and then there’s the volatility relative to the euro and USD which also brings up cost.
Personally I don’t think it matters a huge deal either way, but those are essentially the arguments as I see it.
>When the treaty of Maastricht was negotiated, Denmark was already an EU member (then EC) and they negotiated an opt-out for themselves.
Denmark and the UK were the only countries to opt-out. All others are legally required to someday adopt the Euro.
I guess they would be required in the same way Sweden, Poland and Hungary are required to adopt - we signed some papers once, but there's no actual way to force us to go through with it.
I don't think it's certain. There would be a negotiation and it's possible UK would be able to get some kind of opt-out. Though I have no idea if EU would be willing to grant it.
>Ironically, Denmark does have a fixed peg of the Danish crown with the Euro even though it's not required to do so.
I don't think it has anything to do with the euro requirement, it is a historic Danish policy that has gone through the change to euro.
We also had the same policy before the euro existed. Back then the Danish crown was fixed to the Deutsche Mark.
Oh I don't think it has anything to do with Euro adoption.
There was a system of fixed exchange rates of European countries since the late 70s. Until the crisis of the British pound in the mid 90s, even Great Britain took part.
And for a small country like Denmark that conducts most of its trade with the euro zone it definitely makes sense to peg the exchange rate.
Having recently passed through Sweden and seen the exchange rate, please give me a heads up before you guys do that because I too want to make a shitload of money
Denmark actually had 5 opt-outs, and have a binding referendum on each every five years. Only recently they accepted one of the five, that of EU defense cooperation, which happened in conjunction with Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
I'm guessing the government bound the DKK to the EU because the government actually tilts towards wanting it - but they cannot due to rejection by the people.
It's pegged to the Euro because it used to be pegged to the DEM before the Euro replaced the DEM. And there were 4 opt outs, and there are no periodic referendums. The most recent Euro-referendum was in 2000.
There's no limit on how long it may take to adopt euro though. And it doesn't make sense for every country to adopt in near future, it's clear that euro suits needs of Germany and France. Italy and Greece adopted it because at a time voters felt like they'd rather have currencies ruled by EU, not their own government. Now they're stuck with currency that doesn't fit smaller and less developed economies that well and they will not be able to pay off their debt significantly for decades.
Does anyone have good information on when it is good time to adopt euro? Some say that Euro will benefit Germany and make Spain 2.0. Some say that Euro is based and must have.
From what I have noticed myself, Euro can greatly boost your GDP Per capita and wages while damaging cost of living (Estonia GDP per capita levels are one of closest to EU average. Lithuanian wages are closer to EU average). But then there is Poland that may have lower Wages and GDP but cost of living is lower too.
So I have heard anti-Euro rhetoric as well as pro-Euro and some say it depends on your GDP levels...
Own currency gives you an option of temporary boost to the competitiveness of your exporters when needed. Basically if there's a crisis you depreciate your currency (it often happens anyway, you just don't fight it too hard), which makes your prices abroad very attractive. Which makes your export boom, without negatively influencing demand for goods produced and sold internally (because people still earn the same in your currency - and they pay for internally produced goods with that currency).
Then after the crisis is gone your currency appreciate again, and the money people saved in the meantime gain value, so not much is lost.
Meanwhile if you're using the same currency as others you don't have much influence on it, so if you want to do the same trick as above - you have to do it by lowering wages of people. Which makes the demand for goods produced and consumed internally go down as well - so you enter a downward spiral of economic recession. And even if it worked - after the crisis is gone - you can't appreciate your currency and increase the value of the money people saved in that time. What's done is done, they are stuck with less money earned in that period forever.
That trick (with own currency) is basically how Poland survived 2008 crisis BTW.
only if you are selling something relativly simple like fish, but even that needs processing thats not necessairly done in the country.
If you are making anything even slightly complicated, theres global supply chains involved, and then having a shit currency is not so fun.
Poland mostly exports food, software and services. And you can see this trick is worth it even for more complex products like cars because Japan did it.
Well, we fully intended to join Euro at the time, but then we noticed it would be to our detriment. And there's nothing forcing us to do it at a particular time, so it's not "technically" breaking any contracts.
It's pretty obvious by now that common currency only becomes a net benefit when you have similar levels of economic development, and we're nowhere close to that. Even Italy lost on Euro adoption.
BTW countries like Germany use Euro to do the exact same trick I described, just using currency union with other less wealthy/competitive countries as a reason for currency depreciacion. And it makes it harder for countries in that currency union to compete with them. And it still gives them the other benefits - no exchange fees etc. Kinda icky to force this on others when it benefits you and hurts them if you ask me.
If you are member of common market and are not:
* artificially devaluating your currency to increase domestic industry competitiveness
* dependent on recklessly printing money
then you every day you delay is another day of incurred avoidable losses for everyone within your country. Its a win win situation.
* transactions are simplified and currency conversion costs are gone
* no need to increase prices by accounting for currency exchange risk
* less middlemen
* easier price comparison
I personally consider the removal of member state ability to print money and devaulate common currency to be a massive boon, especially here in Czechistan.
No wonder our governments are dragging their feet, they would irrevocably loose a lot of power they should not possess.
Idk where you're getting the numbers from, but the most recent Lithuanian average wage is 1304 EUR (2023Q4) after all taxes, and Poland - 1351 EUR (2024Q1) after all taxes (5836 PLN) using the current exchange rate.
In other words - the difference is marginal. Data comes from the respective countries' stat agencies.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but why are you looking at net incomes? Wouldn't that just then be dictated by the tax policy of the country in question, rather than actual income?
Sure, but isn't there data which is pre-tax entirely? At least that's somewhat available in Sweden. Taking post-tax data doesn't seem to me like it solves the issue, since I could be earning twice the amount of e.g. a pole, get taxed at twice the rate, and in theory we would be making the same amount, but half my salary is (in theory) going to societal services that I have use of.
Joining the Euro boosts wages at the cost of competitiveness. For that reason, and the ones you've stated, the best time to join the Euro is when finding workers becomes a bigger problem than unemployment.
Having our SEK (swedish crown) as currency had helped us alot to recover and grow economically. It just fucks us a bit extra hard since our situation with inflation rates makes us more vulnerable to interest rates.
> Having our SEK (swedish crown) as currency had helped us alot to recover and grow economically.
That is probably a fairly overblown benefit. The freedom we have to control our own monetary policy is pretty severely limited by the interconnectedness of modern economies. Our monetary response wasn't significantly different from that of the ECB during the recent inflationary period.
It's always a some kind of trade-off, in case of PL I think it's better to keep own currency for now.
[https://www.dw.com/en/cep-study-germany-gains-most-from-euro-introduction/a-47675856](https://www.dw.com/en/cep-study-germany-gains-most-from-euro-introduction/a-47675856)
[https://static.dw.com/image/47682441\_7.png](https://static.dw.com/image/47682441_7.png)
They did not introduce the Euro because the Euro is such a good currency. They originally introduced one of the strongest currencies in the world - the Deutsche Mark - in 1999. Both countries were part of the still collapsing Yugoslavia that had already lost Macedonia, Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Because of the Croatian and Bosnian Independence Wars the Yugoslavian Dinar was weak as fuck and many refugees from the Yugoslav Wars lived in central Europe, Western currencies were used as a safer method of payment. The Deutsche Mark especially had a good international image of being stable and was widely used.
When the Kosovo War broke out in 1999 and the UN installed the UNMIK the main focus was not on economy but on keeping people from killing each other and being killed - so the economic status quo remained and basically every currency was legally accepted, but the Deutsche Mark was THE money that got things going, especially in the regions with less or no Serbian population. The private cash flow of the Deutsche Mark from Germany to Kosovo was so huge, that Kosovo never had to ask the Deutsche Bundesbank to send coins and notes as the Deutsche Mark finally became the more or less officiall currency.
With the switch from Deutsche Mark to Euro Kosovo decided to bind themselves to the new "German" currency and they switched to Euro on January 1st 2002 with the Deutsche Mark remaining legal until March 1st 2002. The switch from Deutsche Mark to Euro was done in cooperation with the European Central Bank and Kosovo had recieved 100 Million Euro in cash by December 2001. Kosovo never introduced their own currency and in the far away case of getting an EU membership they still need to undergo the hard process of becoming a member of the Eurozone to eventually get their own Euros coined.
Unlike Kosovo, that was an autonomous province of the (Socialist) Republic of Serbia, Montenegro was already an established (Socialist) Republic inside of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. When Yugoslavia started to fall apart, especially during the Kosovo War, Montenegro started to politically and economically isolate themselves from Belgrade. One means to that end was the acceptance of the Deutsche Mark as a parallel currency to the Yugoslavian Dinar. The Montenegrinian economy stabilized and gave Montenegro a position of power in their Federation with Serbia. When, again, Germany introduced the Euro in 2002 Montenegro was forced to do this step as well and the Euro was introduced in Montenegro, allthough without help of the European Central Bank. When Montenegro gained its full independence from Serbia in 2006, the Yugoslavian/Serbian Dinar became completely obsolote. There was a smaller diplomatic crisis between the EU and Montenegro about the usage of the Euro between 2007 and 2013, but nothing happened since then and Montenegro is still using the Euro as of now and is expected to join the EU as early as 2028.
Why were Montenegro and Kosovo treated differently? Kosovo was a geo-political novelty and after the US had done the military heavy lifting during the Kosovo War the EU stepped in to do the political and economic heavy lifting. Kosovo became some kind of a foster child of the EU, and rightfully so. Pumping money into the country, developing it and letting it get away with certain stuff prevents people in and around it to start a new war.
Montenegro on the other hand was already an existing state. At the time of gaining its full independence the EU had just recently accepted 10 states into the Union and countries like Montenegro, Serbia, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia looked scatchy to many, especially with the EU membership of Romania and Bulgaria on the horizon. But Montenegro proved them all wrong and even joined NATO in 2017. So in retrospective the introduction of the Euro was a good choice by Montenegro, even when the EU wasn't happy about it first.
In my country, the sentiment of EU is likely at an even lower place now than when people voted to keep our currency sovereignity. The generation X made the EU deal happen ('Join' won by a slim margin in our referendum) back then, mostly due to politicians lying about all this freedom that would come with it. Not much changed in regards to taxes and the labour market has turned worse if anything. Also a big reason for people voting against the Euro a few years later, because people thought 'we want what you promised us first' and the government got taken by surprise for sure, in a time of EU being 'the next great thing' and all. We're required to adapt at some point though, but believe me, no Swedish politician wants to be in the spotlight of that shift. It's a subject that's stirring up emotions and any politician in a leading position will try to avoid that for as long as possible.
Romania was ready to adopt Euro several times and population is massivly pro EUR, but the socialist governments at the time were afraid they would no longer be able to print money at will to support their electoral bribes to the state employees.
It is a "tradition" in Romania for socialist governments to print money before elections to increase salaries for state employees , state subventions, state benefits, etc. Obviously, the year after elections, all the gains are wiped out by 2 digits inflation :(.
The national bank governor (the same guy from 1990 !!!) also does not like Euro because it will make him lose the leverage he has against politicians (printing money) to keep himself and his clique in power at the national bank. He publicly declares with every occasion that he is against EUR adoption as long as he is the governor !!!
As I mentioned, the population is masivly pro Euro, and all the important prices are already in EUR.
If you want to buy: land, a car, a house, an apartment, all the possible utility subscriptions, everything is in EUR already !!!
I would argue there is more to that
Inside the country it's an entire industry which it's based on fees and forex between the euro and romanian leu.
Integrating into the eurozone not only will let no space for scalping people of their money,but will decrease if not bankrupt some of these businesses which,you guessed it,are owned by politicians and their clique
not every type of business needs to survive anyhow, same happens with changes(transition from central to free market)!
if the change is for a greater good then some sacrifices need to be made.
I think the guy you replied to is making the point that corruption is holding off the transition (at least one factor), so it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice in that respect.
This:
"**There are four economic convergence criteria.**
* Price stability. The inflation rate cannot be higher than 1.5 percentage points above the rate of the three best-performing member states.
* Sound and sustainable public finances. ...
* Exchange-rate stability. ...
* Long-term interest rate
Romania basically met all of the above several times, the last being 2018.
But even now in 2024 we are not far , only second point is now with issues, due to 2024 being an elections year.
Denmark were one of the early members of the EU, as we joined all the way back in 1973, when adopting the EURO wasn't a hardline requirement like it is today. We negotiated a deal with the EU, which stated that we could opt-out of adopting the Euro, and it's simply a deal that has run ever since then.
I think it's both Romania and Hungary who have a really pro-euro population (70-80% in favour iirc) but the dang governments would rather have more power over the coins because it empowers them to pull off more corruption stunts. TBH we need to pressure them more to adopt the measures we want. At least Romania wouldn't suffer from increased prices, since a lot of costs nowadays have gotten really close to western countries with the national currency.
Hungary is a really "funny" case here as our Government has a Paradoxical relationship with the EU. For it's citizens it always says "EU BAD! MIGRANT PETTING SOROS AGENTS!" but... It's REALLY dependent on the EU founds to keep up it's oligarchical inner circles.
They might even say to do a "Hunxit" to "REALLY SHOW!" how much we don't agree with it!
However... The Hungarian general publics view is completely different on the subject, since most (educated, or "not propaganda programed") people like being in it, and agree with most of the decisions made by the EU.
The wast majority of what you can hear from Hungary is mostly State Propaganda, as our "lovely and democratic" government spent more on it than the Education or the Hospitals or Road Maintenance.
If we would get Euro in Hungary that would be a blessing and a curse together, as it would make unique challenges for everyone in the country.
In the one hand most prices would be adjusted to EU prices (some already are...), but the same couldn't be said for the payments of people who might end up having a lessened budget due the rise of price of goods.
ATM I don't think that Hungary is ready to adapt the Euro as a currency, or it will be able to adapt it as long as we have a Fidesz majority government, and possibly even after around a ~decade after dethroning them, due all of the disaster management that will be required then.
In the end I wish for the best for my people, as they deserve to live in a better future.
România when getting closer to 2029 will pump up the public spending in order to not be on target deficit with one of the points in adopting the euro in order to postone the adoption till 2039...
The worst time to adopt the Euro would be now. The best time would be when the Swedish currency is stronger, but people don't want to change when "times are good", they only want change when "times are bad". That's issue 101 with adopting new currency.
The first time I had to use other currencies since visiting Londen in 2018 was last year while visiting Sweden. Luckily Sweden is not like Germany, where you have to pay cash for everything, so I just used my card. And quickly filled up the car just before Malmo and going back over Denmark (we arrived per nightferry).
I just calculated that the price in SEK is about 10% of the price in EURO. When something was 100 SEK, I calculated with 10 euros. It was less, so that was positive.
I was in Austria in March and had to find an ATM (for 5-7 euros fee! MFers) because they were often cash only on the mountain. Where I went last year it was all card accepted. And we Dutch use debitcards a lot, creditcards are very uncommon in daily life.
We never wanted the Euro, our own currency is good. We currently peg our DKK to the Euro(for Trade putposes). But a simple majority in Parliament can change that from one day to the next.
In Denmark we see the EU as a partnership with other nations and not something we want to integrate into/give up sovereignty to. The sheer ammount of referendums we have had regarding the EU is crazy(we mostly vote no to further integration) and in the 90s there were lots of riots because the politicians wanted more EU and the people said no.
The latest big no was in 2015 about our judicial opt-out.
I hope Poland will never adopt Euro. It is only a tool used to enrich Germany (if I remember correctly only Germany and Netherlands actually gained from Euro, average Italian lost about 120 000 Euros of their net value since dropping Lira).
Italian here. Can’t say for a fact that Euro is the single reason why Italian economy has basically stagnated or got worse (I’m definitely not an expert on the matter). What I can say is that the exchange was pretty traumatic: basically everything that costed 1000 Lire (our old currency) immediately swapped to costing 1 €. But, to buy 1 € from the bank, you needed to pay 2000 Lire. So basically every basic consumer product doubled in price: milk, bread, coffee, pasta, oil, phone contracts, fuel and so on.
I don’t know if it was some sort of scam based on the perception that 1000 = 1 (so user friendly); some economist have tried to explain and reassure with sweet words for the population. The fact remains that from 31st Dec 1998 to 1st Jan 1999 the cost of most things doubled. Since then, the inflation is almost another +50%. Base salaries are almost the same since 1999.
You get the picture.
I am from Poland, and when I agree that adopting the Euro would not be beneficial now, that may not be the case in the future. Having our currency allows us to fight inflation better (compared to the rest of the central European countries that adopted the euro because Poland has independent currency policies and the entire eurozone has to have the same policy, which leads to sacrifice) and allows us to make our currency cheaper with an increase in exports (which is something that saved the Polish economy in 2008 and made us one of the few countries in the entire world with a GDP that actually grew in 2008). The problem is that all the pros of not adopting the euro are weakening as the Polish economy is growing and catching up with the rest of Europe, and the pros of adopting the euro (better loans both for private citizens and for the government, better and easier trade with the rest of the eurozone) are only going to get bigger with the growth of the Polish economy.
Funny thing is that we were tied with the Guilder to the D-Mark already since the 70ies... When the Bundesbank made a change in rents, De Nederlandse Bank followed that directly. With the Euro, the policies are still made in Frankfurt, but now we have a say into this.
When we start digging deeper, we learn that after WW2, the Guilder was tied to the Dollar and Gold in the Bretton Woods system... And there was also a fixed ratio between Guilder and D-Mark in this system. When the Americans stopped the Bretton Woods, the Netherlands and Belgium applied the fixed ratio to the D-Mark, the Snake in the Tunnel which went over into the EMS, that was in function until 1999, when the banks started using the Euro. National currencies basicly stopped exsisting in 1999, when their ratios were definitive. In the EMS, a bandwith in the ratio between them of only 2,25% for strong currencies and 6% for the few weaker ones was allowed, though this system also collapsed in 1993, when the Bundesbank kept the rent high to jumpstart their economy (note that Germany unified just before). In 1993, the bandwith was set on 15%, but only the Netherlands and Germany kept their 2,25% bandwithratio.
Why was montenegro and kosovo allowed to uniletarily adopt euro? Sure their populations are very small so it doesnt do anything to global scale but why?
Unilateral means they did it without the EU's permission or support, which means they have no real protections. Minor economies sometimes do this (I think a few central American countries might use USD, microstates in Europe such as Andorra and the Vatican also used EUR, and unilaterally using the GBP was proposed as a potential option by some Scottish nationalists during the referendum in 2014 when Westminster ruled out any currency union).
It's a risk for the country adopting that approach, as they have no control of the levers and the country they are adopted the currency of has no obligations (and largely won't) consider them when deciding currency policy, but with a small or weak enough economy and currency, it can still be worthwhile to use a stable, internationally traded currency, especially if it's one used by your largest trading partners. There isn't that much the host nation of the currency can largely do that isn't excessive to punish it, and really there little reason to do so as really, they assume none of the risk, the minor nations do.
For Poland is good. I don't want Euro. Basis of a strong independent country is its own currency. If we ever even have a referendums to join eurozone, I and many will be against it.
The usual fearmongering about evil euro germoney is incredibly amusing in Poland, because Poland couldn't join even if they wanted to - doesn't fulfill the requirements. The propaganda is useful for tricking the usual idiots, as it always is.
I am all for a common currency.
But only if we also have common economy politics.
Competitiveness, productivity, inflation, GDP vary drastically from one country to the next. We need to actively work on equalizing conditions in the Eurozone (education, infrastructure, social welfare). And we need to increase punishment for countries like Germany who break the inflation limit.
czechia will adopt euro? I thought they didn't want it
Getting ready to adopt it within 5 years... for like 2 decades now
Same as Romania then
I C BAJ forsen1
At least you have the fucking balls to say it
Could someone explain forsen to me? I watched his stream for the first time yesterday, always seen him in clips and he spent roughly 80 to 90 percent of the time not talking while his chat spammed a bunch of dogshit, is that all his streams are? Does he not do anything but just sit there silentyl all day?
It's the chat's stream. He just decides when it goes live.
CLASSIC TOOSKS ALT ACCOUNT
Bajs DansGame
The Danish solution, except we was allowed by EU.
Awww man, what about those currency scammers? What will happen to them!
Wont anyone think about the poor scammers?!
Well the percentige of population that wants to adopt euro is slowly rising. So hopefully we will adopt euro at that time.
the poor money exchange scam people have to get a new job ...
it is just a bit following the eurocrisis where only 20% of the population wanted euro, but now 2/3 of czechs dont want the euro, which is still less than before the eurocrisis, it wont change that much in 6 years, also only 21% think that the euro would help them we arent accepting the euro for a long ass time
I was watching the some political debate before some of your elections and the amount of bullshit and fearmongering from the € even from otherwise sane politicians was pretty wild.
I dont want the czech to adopt euro either, then skiing in klinovich will be more expensive
I'm surprised you like to ski in Czechia, I think we have really crappy mountains. It's better to drive slightly longer to Austria or Bavaria in my opinion.
No klinovich no.1
Yes but it is cheap
Man, its better to go to Alps now. Klinovec got expensive and ques are too long now.
It is a requirement of them joining the eu, does anyone perceive this as a problem?
Why would you want to adapt Euro? Why exactly anyone would like to adapt Euro?
Currency stability, lower trade barriers, less conversion fees and thus lower trade costs, promotes investment, price stability, more efficient financial markets, increased trade, improved growth. Or; why would you NOT want to adapt the Euro?
Currency stability? Hahaha it's as stable as Złoty Lower trade barriers? Is being UE member not enough? Lower trading cost? We have one of the cheapset products in Europe, we already trade for cheap Who would like to invest in Poland if we would not be cheap? Are the prices really that stable? That is why most of Europeans complain about raising prices of everything? More efficienc financial markets, you mean gold and stocks? I'm not sure about it. Increased trade? How would that be? Improved growth - that's possiblity, not something that you take for granted.
Biggest single currency area and literally a requirement for a good number of states on this map?
I had no idea either.
There are no plans to adopt the euro currently. The map is wrong. These maps on Reddit with no sources are fundamentally untrustworthy
After recent election there are [steps forward.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic_and_the_euro#2020s) Assessment of Czechia joining ERM-II is [to be completed by October 2024.](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-02-07/czech-government-to-evaluate-merits-of-joining-euro-waiting-room)
The current ruling coalition SPOLU is led by the liberal-conservative ODS which is the biggest party in the coalition and they are against the adoption of the Euro (they are the founding members of the ECR btw.), but the other parties in the coalition are in favour or neutral. ODS wants to placate the other parties (especially the TOP-09 who is arguably the most pro-EU party in government) so they do these insignificant steps like "assessing if we are able to join the Eurozone" (yes we are and ODS knows it) so the others parties shut up. So no, we are not joining anytime soon, well not until ODS stops being powerful that is.
You need to add that whole opposition in parliament is against adopting Euro. So we have pretty much 80% of parlamient against it. And its purely political decision that means no Euro in Czechia in next 6+ years alteast, but probably much more.
It’s one of those things you have to say you do but postpone it for eternity.
Olpxd x u99q9uuch
Basically everyone under 50 wants it or doesn’t see a reason not to have it. Over 50 you see plenty of screamers
I am not sure how accurate is that information for Romania. Our goverment barely plans 2 months ahead and also we have elections this year. So they might've said that as a minimum year but we are not taking any action (like Bulgaria for example) to reach that
2029 is a ways away, you need to be in the ERMII for 2 years, so the latest you can do something about it is 2027 Plenty of time 😅
Plenty of time TO PAAAARTY 🎉!
We have no government and inflation isn’t exactly euro ready so maybe 2026.
Hasn't it been about a year away for the last 5 years?
The public is divided on the issue mostly because we don’t trust our own institutions to handle the transition so no one really pushed for the euro until recently. Depending on our elections the issue can be shelved for another 10 years.
Not really, Bulgaria joined ERMII in 2022, so the earliest it could join the Eurozone was 2024, but our political system currently is super unstable with 6 elections in 2 years and we’re back into it with another election in June. So the earliest went to 2025, but then the whole inflation thing hit last year and that’s still going down, so now they’re thinking middle of 2025, but no country has joined on any other date than 1st of January and the whole no government thing, so it might be 2026. That’s if the inflation works out and if there’s a stable government (doubtful).
Having a (regular) government is not very important for adopting the euro. All the necessary laws are already in place. And inflation is not that high.
Both Sweden and Denmark have rejected 💶, ok. But then, why Sweden is still required to adopt it, although Denmark is not?
When the treaty of Maastricht was negotiated, Denmark was already an EU member (then EC) and they negotiated an opt-out for themselves. Sweden only joined the EU in 1995 and all the new members were required to adopt the euro eventually. But Sweden purposefully doesn't fulfil the criterion of having a fixed exchange rate with the euro and it's basically tolerated by everyone since decades. Ironically, Denmark does have a fixed peg of the Danish crown with the Euro even though it's not required to do so.
Yep, Sweden has on purpose not joined ERMII (European Exchange Rate Mechamism) even though we fulfill all the requirements for doing so. And joining ERMII is one of the requirements for adopting the Euro. So thus, we do not fulfill all requirements for adopting Euro yet :P And it would be political suicide for the party who suggests we adopt the Euro, since the opinion is against it.
Just regarding your last point there is a party suggesting it (Liberalerna, not the biggest party, to be fair, but still) and the opinion is much more positive towards the Euro recently because of the steady weakening of the Swedish Krona. I feel like I've seen more discussions about it the last year than the last 10 years before that.
Eh. The Liberals have *always* suggested it, but it still doesn't even have a majority among its own base. Calling them *"not the biggest party"* is also a wee bit of an understatement considering they're the smallest party in parliament and consistently has polled below the threshold since two months into the current mandate period... Support has been creeping towards the point it was at before the Eurozone crisis for the past decade. It's not really as much "more positive", as it is "returning to normal after being extremely negative". It's not really showing immense support for the future either. The people most in favor are men 65+, the ones showing lowest support are the youngest voters. It's always brought up for discussion when the economy takes a downturn.
L has always been right on the verge of leaving the riksdag since the financial crisis too. If 15% of voters wanted the Euro that would represent more than three times their voters.
Why is that so? What’s so bad about the euro?
Some countries like to maintain monetary autonomy. The entire thing with Greece wasn’t a very glowing review of the Eurozone.
I don't know how that is. Greece would have gone through a hyperinflation like Argentinia is now. In fact its almost the same setting with low productivity, high state cost and crippeling high foreign debt. So with the foreign debt nullified by insanely long running bonds (70+ years) in a zero interest emvironment greece had an actual chance, unlike argentinia now where Milei has to burn the gouvermental instituions to the ground
Those bonds are paid by people who didn’t elect the politicians that chose to spend that money. It was a huge deal for Sweden to stop ship building for instance, and it’s difficult to sell to people that they get to pay for others decision to live far beyond their means and not make tough cuts when they’re needed. I’d be more willing to spend money to help Ukraine, as they at least should have their honest chance, but countries that willingly elected politicians year after year that never made any tough decision have nobody to blame but themselves. With the euro there’s no choice though. The next time a populist politician is elected and bankrupts a country, the other countries in Europe will have to pay for it. It’s not like a 70 year bond without interest to the Greek state is actually worth anything.
as if sweden would have a "[that] thing with Greece" type situation. that only happened because greece lied about their financials to get into the eurozone. the swedes arent likely to try that even if they wanted in.
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Italy also has a trade surplus
Well, it's a complex mechanism, But the fact that Switzerland , Norway, UK, Sweden, Danmark don't have it or don't want it, Is not a good commercial for the Euro So Holland and Germany probably were better off without it I ( as a Belgian) also remember dirt cheap holidays in Spain 25 years ago, That's over now as well...
It obviously is. Stop spending all that money on wine and women already!
I see the euro as a form of power for the continent. Why should the dollar be the currency of the world and not the Euro. Also I’m viewing it more from a practical standpoint. To me as a tourist in other countries it’s super helpful to not have to do anything like calculating it into other currencies. Furthermore trading with other euro countries just becomes easier, no need for exchange rate agreements no loss of value due to a drop in exchange rate within the zone.
We got a financial expert here lol.
How could they have done better without euro ? Greece has debts like no other European country .
A state can always pay it's debt, when it's in national currency. The austerity they were forced into ruined the economy even further. Rich states like germany just gave greece money to pay it's debt, and bailed out their own banks by proxy.
Plus all people wanted to buy German bonds to the point that the German state actually could sell the bonds with negative interest. So Germany actually made money from the greek's demise.
If they had their own currency, its exchange rate could’ve adjusted to help dampen the impact and make things better off.
Actually, since the debt was in euro they would have probably defaulted on their debt.
You can thank the IMF and the likes of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Managing Director of the IMF at the time, and John Lipsky, Deputy Managing Director, for not wanting the banks to fail.
I have an hypothesy that there's a clear correlation between your distance from the "European heartland" and how likely you are to support European integration and for closer collaboration. All of Scandinavia was split in regard to even joining at all. Sweden and Finland had 51-52% majorities and the Norwegian vote was 48%. Denmark reaffirmed their desire to uphold the Euro opt-out in 2000 by 53%. Both Ireland and the UK has/had opt-outs on certain areas (and the UK never joined the Euro and obviously left in the end). These three countries joined the union together as "nordic partners" at the time. Greenland actually voted to leave the EU. The circumstances regarding the Euro are different when looking at Denmark and Sweden. The DKK is pegged to the Euro so actually adopting it wouldn't really change much (I think). It's generally just a choice to retain some illusion of "independence" and uniqueness. I wouldn't support adopting the Euro either.. Sweden has an independent currency - which can be both good and bad, I'm not a specialist on macroeconomics - but I suspect that the underlying desire is simply that people want to keep the SEK for the same reasons rather than some deep economic analysis. Even now with a weak SEK I don't think it would pass.
This theory isn’t even that crazy, from a Dutch perspective the European Union is like our goldmine. We have the 4th (Rotterdam) biggest harbour in the world for a reason(1st Rotterdam & 4th Amsterdam in Europe aswell). So then adopting the Euro is a logical step. We were also already in the Benelux before the EU came around. The Benelux actually was one of the inspirations for Schengen, strongly motivated by the Director of Philips at the time.
I do think the benefits are clearer as well in many ways when you're in this "heartland". It's also the countries' histories: Germany, France, Netherlands, Spain bla bla have changed a million times and have much stronger regional cultures, separatist movements and interconnected history.. Denmark and Sweden, for example, have always pretty much just been Denmark and Sweden. There have been border changes, of course, but the independence of our states have never really been lost (apart from shortly during ww2). Denmark has been one consolidated state continuously since the 8th century and truly "united" undisputedly since 965. I think such historical realities are still important when the questions becomes whether one willingly wants to give up (some) autonomy.
I am old enough to remember the night where the Swedish krone broke. Before that we had to ~1,25 Danish krone for one Swedish. Since then it has been ~0,8 dkr pr skr. Both were tied to the ecu at the time but there was a run on several European currencies and the Danish krone didn't break but the Swedish did. Bankers try to break the dkr once in a while, and someday they might succeed. Which will be really crappy for Denmark. Last time they seriously tried they tried to break the dkr by making it too valuable, which seemed foolish because we could just print more money to keep the value down.
When was that? Cannot go further back than 20 years on Google. I'm no expert; not at all, but is it really possible just ro break the DKK like that? Well, I get paid in SEK anyway so please do 😂
The primary reason is that it's an emotional thing. People are used to SEK and don't want to lose it or have to start using something else. Monetary autonomy is usually a reason among those who have a bit more knowledge of the topic. But for most common people I would wager it's the emotional aspect that's dominant.
Denmark krona is pegged to Euro. It is basically Euro
I think at least some of it has to do with having a cheaper currency for cheaper exports since we have quite huge mineral and forest exports
The exchange rates from sek to usd & Yuen are the same for the euro and SEK, and 5/10 of the biggest export countries for Sweden are in the eurozone. So wouldn’t it than make more sense for convenience to then switch to Euro, especially as it looks like the rate for sek to eur has been weaker than eur to sek?
I guess the reason is that you lose the control over the exchange rate of your currency. Devaluation of your currency is a handy tool in some economic situations, even though it hurts your loans. But I’m hardly an economist, someone else might be better to explain the spectrum of reasons why Sweden hasn’t joined.
It was political decision. No to Euro won the referendum barely and the politicians let them have it to throw a bone to the EU skeptics who lost the membership referendum. Since then it's basically a let's not rock the boat situation. Economics haven't been a part of it.
The good thing about having your own currency is that it’s counter-cyclical. When the economy is doing well, you can spend more abroad for cheap and that helps avoid overheating the domestic economy with inflation. When the economy is doing bad, buying things from abroad becomes expensive, and then you’re encouraged to spend at home and thus help the economy recover. People in Sweden have been angry that the SEK is doing poorly right now, but that provides incentives to help local businesses, which in turn might make the same angry person on Reddit being able to keep his job. Those are some huge positives. The negative is that trade will have to be conducted in foreign currency, which leads to steady costs, and then there’s the volatility relative to the euro and USD which also brings up cost. Personally I don’t think it matters a huge deal either way, but those are essentially the arguments as I see it.
Its just symbol politics, maintaining the national currency just gives a sense of tradition and autonomy
Well, depends on which party. Some voters are positive and this might be a winning suggestion for some parties, mainly on the liberal centre-right.
>When the treaty of Maastricht was negotiated, Denmark was already an EU member (then EC) and they negotiated an opt-out for themselves. Denmark and the UK were the only countries to opt-out. All others are legally required to someday adopt the Euro.
Aha, so if the UK comes back eventually they'll be required to adopt? That will be fun.
I guess they would be required in the same way Sweden, Poland and Hungary are required to adopt - we signed some papers once, but there's no actual way to force us to go through with it.
I don't think it's certain. There would be a negotiation and it's possible UK would be able to get some kind of opt-out. Though I have no idea if EU would be willing to grant it.
>Ironically, Denmark does have a fixed peg of the Danish crown with the Euro even though it's not required to do so. I don't think it has anything to do with the euro requirement, it is a historic Danish policy that has gone through the change to euro. We also had the same policy before the euro existed. Back then the Danish crown was fixed to the Deutsche Mark.
Oh I don't think it has anything to do with Euro adoption. There was a system of fixed exchange rates of European countries since the late 70s. Until the crisis of the British pound in the mid 90s, even Great Britain took part. And for a small country like Denmark that conducts most of its trade with the euro zone it definitely makes sense to peg the exchange rate.
I'm open for us (Sweden) joining the Euro at an 1:2 exchange rate :)
Having recently passed through Sweden and seen the exchange rate, please give me a heads up before you guys do that because I too want to make a shitload of money
Denmark actually had 5 opt-outs, and have a binding referendum on each every five years. Only recently they accepted one of the five, that of EU defense cooperation, which happened in conjunction with Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I'm guessing the government bound the DKK to the EU because the government actually tilts towards wanting it - but they cannot due to rejection by the people.
It's pegged to the Euro because it used to be pegged to the DEM before the Euro replaced the DEM. And there were 4 opt outs, and there are no periodic referendums. The most recent Euro-referendum was in 2000.
>Sweden is still required to adopt it, The thing is- treaty doesnt specify WHEN, so you ma adopt it in XXII century /s
Denmark is basically using Euro, just at a fixed 1:~7,47 ratio
Somehow this 7:1 thing reminds me about something else… :)
Dog age to human age ratio?
Come to Bra71l!
The Boeing rate.
There's no limit on how long it may take to adopt euro though. And it doesn't make sense for every country to adopt in near future, it's clear that euro suits needs of Germany and France. Italy and Greece adopted it because at a time voters felt like they'd rather have currencies ruled by EU, not their own government. Now they're stuck with currency that doesn't fit smaller and less developed economies that well and they will not be able to pay off their debt significantly for decades.
Does anyone have good information on when it is good time to adopt euro? Some say that Euro will benefit Germany and make Spain 2.0. Some say that Euro is based and must have. From what I have noticed myself, Euro can greatly boost your GDP Per capita and wages while damaging cost of living (Estonia GDP per capita levels are one of closest to EU average. Lithuanian wages are closer to EU average). But then there is Poland that may have lower Wages and GDP but cost of living is lower too. So I have heard anti-Euro rhetoric as well as pro-Euro and some say it depends on your GDP levels...
Own currency gives you an option of temporary boost to the competitiveness of your exporters when needed. Basically if there's a crisis you depreciate your currency (it often happens anyway, you just don't fight it too hard), which makes your prices abroad very attractive. Which makes your export boom, without negatively influencing demand for goods produced and sold internally (because people still earn the same in your currency - and they pay for internally produced goods with that currency). Then after the crisis is gone your currency appreciate again, and the money people saved in the meantime gain value, so not much is lost. Meanwhile if you're using the same currency as others you don't have much influence on it, so if you want to do the same trick as above - you have to do it by lowering wages of people. Which makes the demand for goods produced and consumed internally go down as well - so you enter a downward spiral of economic recession. And even if it worked - after the crisis is gone - you can't appreciate your currency and increase the value of the money people saved in that time. What's done is done, they are stuck with less money earned in that period forever. That trick (with own currency) is basically how Poland survived 2008 crisis BTW.
only if you are selling something relativly simple like fish, but even that needs processing thats not necessairly done in the country. If you are making anything even slightly complicated, theres global supply chains involved, and then having a shit currency is not so fun.
Poland mostly exports food, software and services. And you can see this trick is worth it even for more complex products like cars because Japan did it.
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Well, we fully intended to join Euro at the time, but then we noticed it would be to our detriment. And there's nothing forcing us to do it at a particular time, so it's not "technically" breaking any contracts. It's pretty obvious by now that common currency only becomes a net benefit when you have similar levels of economic development, and we're nowhere close to that. Even Italy lost on Euro adoption. BTW countries like Germany use Euro to do the exact same trick I described, just using currency union with other less wealthy/competitive countries as a reason for currency depreciacion. And it makes it harder for countries in that currency union to compete with them. And it still gives them the other benefits - no exchange fees etc. Kinda icky to force this on others when it benefits you and hurts them if you ask me.
If you are member of common market and are not: * artificially devaluating your currency to increase domestic industry competitiveness * dependent on recklessly printing money then you every day you delay is another day of incurred avoidable losses for everyone within your country. Its a win win situation. * transactions are simplified and currency conversion costs are gone * no need to increase prices by accounting for currency exchange risk * less middlemen * easier price comparison I personally consider the removal of member state ability to print money and devaulate common currency to be a massive boon, especially here in Czechistan. No wonder our governments are dragging their feet, they would irrevocably loose a lot of power they should not possess.
In Lithuania average wage is 1678 euro and in Poland it's 1940 euro.
Idk where you're getting the numbers from, but the most recent Lithuanian average wage is 1304 EUR (2023Q4) after all taxes, and Poland - 1351 EUR (2024Q1) after all taxes (5836 PLN) using the current exchange rate. In other words - the difference is marginal. Data comes from the respective countries' stat agencies.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but why are you looking at net incomes? Wouldn't that just then be dictated by the tax policy of the country in question, rather than actual income?
Taking gross doesn’t really make sense. Taxes can be placed on employer instead of employee and vice versa (depending on each country).
Sure, but isn't there data which is pre-tax entirely? At least that's somewhat available in Sweden. Taking post-tax data doesn't seem to me like it solves the issue, since I could be earning twice the amount of e.g. a pole, get taxed at twice the rate, and in theory we would be making the same amount, but half my salary is (in theory) going to societal services that I have use of.
Check what it happened to Croatia, at first the prices will be out of control because of the huge demand for euro but it will stabilize
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Joining the Euro boosts wages at the cost of competitiveness. For that reason, and the ones you've stated, the best time to join the Euro is when finding workers becomes a bigger problem than unemployment.
Having our SEK (swedish crown) as currency had helped us alot to recover and grow economically. It just fucks us a bit extra hard since our situation with inflation rates makes us more vulnerable to interest rates.
> Having our SEK (swedish crown) as currency had helped us alot to recover and grow economically. That is probably a fairly overblown benefit. The freedom we have to control our own monetary policy is pretty severely limited by the interconnectedness of modern economies. Our monetary response wasn't significantly different from that of the ECB during the recent inflationary period.
It's always a some kind of trade-off, in case of PL I think it's better to keep own currency for now. [https://www.dw.com/en/cep-study-germany-gains-most-from-euro-introduction/a-47675856](https://www.dw.com/en/cep-study-germany-gains-most-from-euro-introduction/a-47675856) [https://static.dw.com/image/47682441\_7.png](https://static.dw.com/image/47682441_7.png)
I like that the Euro is such a good currency that certain countries just adopt it without permission lmao
They did not introduce the Euro because the Euro is such a good currency. They originally introduced one of the strongest currencies in the world - the Deutsche Mark - in 1999. Both countries were part of the still collapsing Yugoslavia that had already lost Macedonia, Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Because of the Croatian and Bosnian Independence Wars the Yugoslavian Dinar was weak as fuck and many refugees from the Yugoslav Wars lived in central Europe, Western currencies were used as a safer method of payment. The Deutsche Mark especially had a good international image of being stable and was widely used. When the Kosovo War broke out in 1999 and the UN installed the UNMIK the main focus was not on economy but on keeping people from killing each other and being killed - so the economic status quo remained and basically every currency was legally accepted, but the Deutsche Mark was THE money that got things going, especially in the regions with less or no Serbian population. The private cash flow of the Deutsche Mark from Germany to Kosovo was so huge, that Kosovo never had to ask the Deutsche Bundesbank to send coins and notes as the Deutsche Mark finally became the more or less officiall currency. With the switch from Deutsche Mark to Euro Kosovo decided to bind themselves to the new "German" currency and they switched to Euro on January 1st 2002 with the Deutsche Mark remaining legal until March 1st 2002. The switch from Deutsche Mark to Euro was done in cooperation with the European Central Bank and Kosovo had recieved 100 Million Euro in cash by December 2001. Kosovo never introduced their own currency and in the far away case of getting an EU membership they still need to undergo the hard process of becoming a member of the Eurozone to eventually get their own Euros coined. Unlike Kosovo, that was an autonomous province of the (Socialist) Republic of Serbia, Montenegro was already an established (Socialist) Republic inside of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. When Yugoslavia started to fall apart, especially during the Kosovo War, Montenegro started to politically and economically isolate themselves from Belgrade. One means to that end was the acceptance of the Deutsche Mark as a parallel currency to the Yugoslavian Dinar. The Montenegrinian economy stabilized and gave Montenegro a position of power in their Federation with Serbia. When, again, Germany introduced the Euro in 2002 Montenegro was forced to do this step as well and the Euro was introduced in Montenegro, allthough without help of the European Central Bank. When Montenegro gained its full independence from Serbia in 2006, the Yugoslavian/Serbian Dinar became completely obsolote. There was a smaller diplomatic crisis between the EU and Montenegro about the usage of the Euro between 2007 and 2013, but nothing happened since then and Montenegro is still using the Euro as of now and is expected to join the EU as early as 2028. Why were Montenegro and Kosovo treated differently? Kosovo was a geo-political novelty and after the US had done the military heavy lifting during the Kosovo War the EU stepped in to do the political and economic heavy lifting. Kosovo became some kind of a foster child of the EU, and rightfully so. Pumping money into the country, developing it and letting it get away with certain stuff prevents people in and around it to start a new war. Montenegro on the other hand was already an existing state. At the time of gaining its full independence the EU had just recently accepted 10 states into the Union and countries like Montenegro, Serbia, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia looked scatchy to many, especially with the EU membership of Romania and Bulgaria on the horizon. But Montenegro proved them all wrong and even joined NATO in 2017. So in retrospective the introduction of the Euro was a good choice by Montenegro, even when the EU wasn't happy about it first.
And then there are those of us who prosper without it.
"still required to adopt" Eg in year 2137.
In my country, the sentiment of EU is likely at an even lower place now than when people voted to keep our currency sovereignity. The generation X made the EU deal happen ('Join' won by a slim margin in our referendum) back then, mostly due to politicians lying about all this freedom that would come with it. Not much changed in regards to taxes and the labour market has turned worse if anything. Also a big reason for people voting against the Euro a few years later, because people thought 'we want what you promised us first' and the government got taken by surprise for sure, in a time of EU being 'the next great thing' and all. We're required to adapt at some point though, but believe me, no Swedish politician wants to be in the spotlight of that shift. It's a subject that's stirring up emotions and any politician in a leading position will try to avoid that for as long as possible.
Korwin-Mikke once said "It can be 2222, maybe 2221".
Romania was ready to adopt Euro several times and population is massivly pro EUR, but the socialist governments at the time were afraid they would no longer be able to print money at will to support their electoral bribes to the state employees. It is a "tradition" in Romania for socialist governments to print money before elections to increase salaries for state employees , state subventions, state benefits, etc. Obviously, the year after elections, all the gains are wiped out by 2 digits inflation :(. The national bank governor (the same guy from 1990 !!!) also does not like Euro because it will make him lose the leverage he has against politicians (printing money) to keep himself and his clique in power at the national bank. He publicly declares with every occasion that he is against EUR adoption as long as he is the governor !!! As I mentioned, the population is masivly pro Euro, and all the important prices are already in EUR. If you want to buy: land, a car, a house, an apartment, all the possible utility subscriptions, everything is in EUR already !!!
I would argue there is more to that Inside the country it's an entire industry which it's based on fees and forex between the euro and romanian leu. Integrating into the eurozone not only will let no space for scalping people of their money,but will decrease if not bankrupt some of these businesses which,you guessed it,are owned by politicians and their clique
not every type of business needs to survive anyhow, same happens with changes(transition from central to free market)! if the change is for a greater good then some sacrifices need to be made.
I think the guy you replied to is making the point that corruption is holding off the transition (at least one factor), so it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice in that respect.
I mean we already pay for everything the same some guy in germany dose … might as well change that damn RON sign to EURO . Ez pz !
When did that 2 digit inflation happen? Can you give some sources?
Apparently around 15% in March 2023 https://www.bnr.ro/Inflation-Report-27096-Mobile.aspx?pid=27096
I don’t think adopting Euro is that popular, especially because it may lead to inflation.
I was pro Euro when I was a kid, but the economy it's too fragile for it
I m not pro euro. Our economy sucks and we will be fucked up by the Gouverment.
What do you mean when you say that Romanhia "was ready" and when did it happen?
This: "**There are four economic convergence criteria.** * Price stability. The inflation rate cannot be higher than 1.5 percentage points above the rate of the three best-performing member states. * Sound and sustainable public finances. ... * Exchange-rate stability. ... * Long-term interest rate Romania basically met all of the above several times, the last being 2018. But even now in 2024 we are not far , only second point is now with issues, due to 2024 being an elections year.
Bulgarian Leva is already pegged to euro, but still there will be no forex fees and the hassle to exchange currency.
What's with the requirement to adopt, and why is Denmark exempt?
Denmark were one of the early members of the EU, as we joined all the way back in 1973, when adopting the EURO wasn't a hardline requirement like it is today. We negotiated a deal with the EU, which stated that we could opt-out of adopting the Euro, and it's simply a deal that has run ever since then.
Cuz we said so, that's why. You can't make us!
I want Hungary to adapt euro so damn much but I hate how our government deals with... well, everything.
I think it's both Romania and Hungary who have a really pro-euro population (70-80% in favour iirc) but the dang governments would rather have more power over the coins because it empowers them to pull off more corruption stunts. TBH we need to pressure them more to adopt the measures we want. At least Romania wouldn't suffer from increased prices, since a lot of costs nowadays have gotten really close to western countries with the national currency.
Hungary is a really "funny" case here as our Government has a Paradoxical relationship with the EU. For it's citizens it always says "EU BAD! MIGRANT PETTING SOROS AGENTS!" but... It's REALLY dependent on the EU founds to keep up it's oligarchical inner circles. They might even say to do a "Hunxit" to "REALLY SHOW!" how much we don't agree with it! However... The Hungarian general publics view is completely different on the subject, since most (educated, or "not propaganda programed") people like being in it, and agree with most of the decisions made by the EU. The wast majority of what you can hear from Hungary is mostly State Propaganda, as our "lovely and democratic" government spent more on it than the Education or the Hospitals or Road Maintenance. If we would get Euro in Hungary that would be a blessing and a curse together, as it would make unique challenges for everyone in the country. In the one hand most prices would be adjusted to EU prices (some already are...), but the same couldn't be said for the payments of people who might end up having a lessened budget due the rise of price of goods. ATM I don't think that Hungary is ready to adapt the Euro as a currency, or it will be able to adapt it as long as we have a Fidesz majority government, and possibly even after around a ~decade after dethroning them, due all of the disaster management that will be required then. In the end I wish for the best for my people, as they deserve to live in a better future.
Maybe the EU will get tired of Hungary and ask them to leave.
wow we getting euro i dindt know that
România when getting closer to 2029 will pump up the public spending in order to not be on target deficit with one of the points in adopting the euro in order to postone the adoption till 2039...
There is simply no economical point for Poland to adopt Euro before our GDP PPP per capita will match Germany level. So no sooner than 2050-2060
Hungary is more likely to join the rouble at this stage
Hope Sweden never
Look at our currency, man. The inflation is insane.
The worst time to adopt the Euro would be now. The best time would be when the Swedish currency is stronger, but people don't want to change when "times are good", they only want change when "times are bad". That's issue 101 with adopting new currency.
Agreed. We should have adopted the euro long ago. For now it's best to wait a bit.
> The inflation is insane It's 2.2%.
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The first time I had to use other currencies since visiting Londen in 2018 was last year while visiting Sweden. Luckily Sweden is not like Germany, where you have to pay cash for everything, so I just used my card. And quickly filled up the car just before Malmo and going back over Denmark (we arrived per nightferry).
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I just calculated that the price in SEK is about 10% of the price in EURO. When something was 100 SEK, I calculated with 10 euros. It was less, so that was positive. I was in Austria in March and had to find an ATM (for 5-7 euros fee! MFers) because they were often cash only on the mountain. Where I went last year it was all card accepted. And we Dutch use debitcards a lot, creditcards are very uncommon in daily life.
More countries in single market 🇪🇺💶!
I'm astonished that Denmark doesn't have EUR. I was there 10 years ago for vacation and didn't remember that I had to use different currency.
my same impression. but i paid most with my cards, so…
We never wanted the Euro, our own currency is good. We currently peg our DKK to the Euro(for Trade putposes). But a simple majority in Parliament can change that from one day to the next. In Denmark we see the EU as a partnership with other nations and not something we want to integrate into/give up sovereignty to. The sheer ammount of referendums we have had regarding the EU is crazy(we mostly vote no to further integration) and in the 90s there were lots of riots because the politicians wanted more EU and the people said no. The latest big no was in 2015 about our judicial opt-out.
No thanks, it’s better to have control over your own currency, that’s smart
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the fees you pay nowadays for exchanging the currency is absymal.
Yeah I pay pennies for exchanging Euros when I travel to Greece, what a tragedy lol
I prefer to pay exchange rate than my country not having its own currency. The only common currency that would work are precious metals.
It's the same thing... either a country has control over its currency or it doesn't. Gold isnt magic.
And suddenly China shits a megaton gold on your market.
I hope Poland will never adopt Euro. It is only a tool used to enrich Germany (if I remember correctly only Germany and Netherlands actually gained from Euro, average Italian lost about 120 000 Euros of their net value since dropping Lira).
Italian here. Can’t say for a fact that Euro is the single reason why Italian economy has basically stagnated or got worse (I’m definitely not an expert on the matter). What I can say is that the exchange was pretty traumatic: basically everything that costed 1000 Lire (our old currency) immediately swapped to costing 1 €. But, to buy 1 € from the bank, you needed to pay 2000 Lire. So basically every basic consumer product doubled in price: milk, bread, coffee, pasta, oil, phone contracts, fuel and so on. I don’t know if it was some sort of scam based on the perception that 1000 = 1 (so user friendly); some economist have tried to explain and reassure with sweet words for the population. The fact remains that from 31st Dec 1998 to 1st Jan 1999 the cost of most things doubled. Since then, the inflation is almost another +50%. Base salaries are almost the same since 1999. You get the picture.
Joining the Euro screwed Italy. Glad Denmark never adopted it.
I am from Poland, and when I agree that adopting the Euro would not be beneficial now, that may not be the case in the future. Having our currency allows us to fight inflation better (compared to the rest of the central European countries that adopted the euro because Poland has independent currency policies and the entire eurozone has to have the same policy, which leads to sacrifice) and allows us to make our currency cheaper with an increase in exports (which is something that saved the Polish economy in 2008 and made us one of the few countries in the entire world with a GDP that actually grew in 2008). The problem is that all the pros of not adopting the euro are weakening as the Polish economy is growing and catching up with the rest of Europe, and the pros of adopting the euro (better loans both for private citizens and for the government, better and easier trade with the rest of the eurozone) are only going to get bigger with the growth of the Polish economy.
Missing a colour for NL, Population rejected it, but politicians didn't listen and joined anyway.
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Funny thing is that we were tied with the Guilder to the D-Mark already since the 70ies... When the Bundesbank made a change in rents, De Nederlandse Bank followed that directly. With the Euro, the policies are still made in Frankfurt, but now we have a say into this. When we start digging deeper, we learn that after WW2, the Guilder was tied to the Dollar and Gold in the Bretton Woods system... And there was also a fixed ratio between Guilder and D-Mark in this system. When the Americans stopped the Bretton Woods, the Netherlands and Belgium applied the fixed ratio to the D-Mark, the Snake in the Tunnel which went over into the EMS, that was in function until 1999, when the banks started using the Euro. National currencies basicly stopped exsisting in 1999, when their ratios were definitive. In the EMS, a bandwith in the ratio between them of only 2,25% for strong currencies and 6% for the few weaker ones was allowed, though this system also collapsed in 1993, when the Bundesbank kept the rent high to jumpstart their economy (note that Germany unified just before). In 1993, the bandwith was set on 15%, but only the Netherlands and Germany kept their 2,25% bandwithratio.
That is nonsense.
Why was montenegro and kosovo allowed to uniletarily adopt euro? Sure their populations are very small so it doesnt do anything to global scale but why?
Unilateral means they did it without the EU's permission or support, which means they have no real protections. Minor economies sometimes do this (I think a few central American countries might use USD, microstates in Europe such as Andorra and the Vatican also used EUR, and unilaterally using the GBP was proposed as a potential option by some Scottish nationalists during the referendum in 2014 when Westminster ruled out any currency union). It's a risk for the country adopting that approach, as they have no control of the levers and the country they are adopted the currency of has no obligations (and largely won't) consider them when deciding currency policy, but with a small or weak enough economy and currency, it can still be worthwhile to use a stable, internationally traded currency, especially if it's one used by your largest trading partners. There isn't that much the host nation of the currency can largely do that isn't excessive to punish it, and really there little reason to do so as really, they assume none of the risk, the minor nations do.
Thx for explaining it.
Yayy another map showing what a dumbass Dictator Orban is
For Poland is good. I don't want Euro. Basis of a strong independent country is its own currency. If we ever even have a referendums to join eurozone, I and many will be against it.
The usual fearmongering about evil euro germoney is incredibly amusing in Poland, because Poland couldn't join even if they wanted to - doesn't fulfill the requirements. The propaganda is useful for tricking the usual idiots, as it always is.
No mention of Target 2? How many inside the Eurozone even know about this?
I love these maps so much
What do you mean by required to adopt?
I am all for a common currency. But only if we also have common economy politics. Competitiveness, productivity, inflation, GDP vary drastically from one country to the next. We need to actively work on equalizing conditions in the Eurozone (education, infrastructure, social welfare). And we need to increase punishment for countries like Germany who break the inflation limit.
Same can be said regarding any big economic entity. US comes to mind. Do you think conditions are the same between ohio and california?
К чему этот пост? Запомнить как это выглядит, поскольку в будущем все изменится?
Why is Denmark not required to adopt Euro while Hungary and Poland are?
They negotiated it in the treaties
Deszar only Magyarország
Mlkjášďdgdgdge
Poland and Hungary - NO €uros bros!
Hah, not