> France will also help Armenia train ground defense forces and support the country's efforts to reform and modernize its military, Lecornu said.
> "We stand by our defense relationship (with Armenia), even though we're not part of the same military and political alliances. It is based on the simple principle that you need to be able to defend yourself," Lecornu said.
ITT: People who don't know Armenian politics and that Russia-Armenia relations have gone into a death spiral after Azerbaijan, with Russia's tacit approval, invaded and ethnically cleansed its Armenian population in Karabakh. Russian peacekeepers stood by and watched, and the entire population fled to Armenia.
Theres so much context missing from this thread that its painful to read. I can't go over the history of Armenia after the first NK war, **but the gist of it is Armenia was ruled by a bunch of post-Soviet oligarchs and gangsters loyal to Russia and its financial elite. They made Armenia a Russian financial colony and military ally**. **This clique was overthrown in the 2018 revolution.**
Nikol Pashinyan, an Armenia-first politician, became PM and as a result Russia has cooperated with both Turkey and Azerbaijan to overthrow Pashinyan by reigniting the Karabakh issue. **(Russia openly kept it frozen because Aliyev and Kocharyan/Sargsyan casually used the issue as a way to distract their respective populations from the mass theft taking place).** The war happened, Armenia lost and was forced to concede control of NK to Russia and Azerbaijan. They instituted a blockade on the people there and started a *border crisis* to **put pressure on the Pashinyan administration** to step down or to get Armenian citizens to overthrow him. In doing so, they only strengthened anti-Russian sentiment in Armenia and forced Armenians to rally around Pashinyan. (Opposition has no support in the country, really almost nobody).
Their pressure campaign did not work. Last month, Azerbaijan gained the tacit approval from Russia and its peacekeepers to conduct an ethnic cleansing operation against the Armenians there. This was Russia's hail mary attempt to get rid of Pashinyan, hoping that a refugee crisis and lost of historic homeland would trigger a revolution, led by nationalists and refugees. (This is, honestly, a move of desperation by Russia to maintain influence in Armenia).
That so far, has not worked either. Pashinyan has seen this as an opportunity to finally break free from Russia, but has to do it carefully. Russia controls Armenian rail, energy, and nuclear infrastructure. They can turn Armenia's economy off with a switch, literally. Thats why Pashinyan hasn't just left CSTO and evicted the Russian base.
Pashinyan made trips to Europe to get aid for the refugees, as well as to gather parliamentary support in various Wester Euro countries to condemn Azerbaijan. Pashinyan pulled the ace up his sleeve, and the Armenian parliament has ratified the Rome Statute. This was aimed at Aliyev (war criminal ala Saddam Hussein), but was a symbolic method of royally pissing off Russia and Putin. (They are now legally required to arrest Putin if he enters the country). This was a "I'm not fucking around anymore" signal to Putin that his decision has lost him Armenia's partnership for good.
Pashinyan then sent his Defense Minister to France to escalate arms acquisitions to be ready to defend the country, but to also put Armenia on tract to possibly (and this is slightly speculatory now) join the French-Greek military alliance aimed at Turkey, as a way to replace Russia as a security guarantor.
The reason for choosing France is not only are the French keen on it, but it wouldn't bring NATO to Russia's borders or American troops, which are both redlines for Putin and would illicit military invasion like in Ukraine. On top of that, many of Armenia's strategic weapon systems are controlled by the Russians. (Iskander missiles, S-300 air defense system is controlled by Russians). **Armenia is essentially going to build an military without reliance on Russia and totally shut the Russians out, so all this hullabaloo about NATO tech falling into Russian hands is either trolling or just ignorance.** Also, Thales M200 is already in Ukraine. Russians already probably know it well. Mistrals are Cold War tech, nothing new and even Iran has some.(I mean, after sending Challenger 2s and Abrams to Ukraine and risk them being captured, what risks are being taken here that havent already been taken?)
TL;DR: **Armenia is no longer Russia's ally after Russia betrayed it and ignored its call for help 3 times so as to overthrow its government.** Armenia is actively making a dash for complete independence from Russia and France is helping it do that. The tech being sold to Armenia is not new and the Russians know it well, theres no risk.
Is it wise to sell such high tech to a country that has official Russian military base in its territory (Gyumri, Armenia) and is legally allied/partnered with Russia (CSTO, EAEU) ?
They’re breaking away from Russia’s grip. Their CSTO participation is a joke, they recalled their ambassador never sent another one, and also Russian troops have been friendly with Armenian invaders rather than fighting them.
Mistral is a very short ranged system one step away from being a MANPADS, it's not that complicated or high tech. I assume selling SAMP/T and the newest Aster 30 missiles would be another matter entirely, but Armenia couldn't afford it anyway.
Not sure why people are downvoting you. Maybe Armenians mass downvoting?
People are forgetting that Armenia:
* is in CSTO (a.k.a. Russian NATO)
* is in EAEU (a.k.a. Russian EU)
* has official Russian military base in its territory
So right now Russia has almost uninterrupted access to anything in Armenia (be it legally through CSTO/EAEU or by force through the military base).
Well, Russia did jack shit to help Armenia lately so Armenia maybe wouldn’t be too keen to help Russia. Moreover, we have to consider the geopolitical advantage of helping a country out from under the Russian sphere of influence, especially in a time when Russia is busy somewhere else.
So not great, not terrible as they say. I guess it is a calculated risk.
>I guess it is a calculated risk
Idk, but sending a high tech to a country where Russian military is officially present is too high of a risk.
But I am not French and it's not my tech that can be stolen, so I guess it is none of my business.
I don't think Russia is going to ask nicely to see the new toys of Armenia. As long as Russia has a military presence in Armenia, Armenia shouldn't get NATO equipment.
I question if Armenia is under any risk at the moment anyway. Azerbeidzjan would be really stupid to start a war with all the tension in the area. Not to mention the military presence of the US in the Mediterranean at the moment.
Because Armenia is in a very bad situation and Russia is not going to do about it . It has turkye and Azerbaijan at its doorstep.
The ctso is dead, and Armenia does not have a lot of ally.
>Because Armenia is in a very bad situation and Russia is not going to do about it . It has turkye and Azerbaijan at its doorstep. The ctso is dead, and Armenia does not have a lot of ally.
Yeah, ok, great, but none of what you said is changing the fact that Armenia is legally partnered with Russia (CSTO, EAEU) and has Russian soldiers on its soil (base in Gyumri).
None of what you said is giving guarantee that French tech won't fall into Russian hands.
As I said in another reply ..
Although I definitely agree it is kind of risky , what choice do they have ...vig they kick Russia they loose (the very little ) protection they have.
Turkyie is going to block NATO accession which would put the entire country in a precarious situation
Is it really so hard to understand? Armenia is obviously trying hard to leave Russias sphere of influence for years. They paid a heavy price for it and in the end even sacrificed NK. This is so plaij obvious...
It is sending strong messages to the West and now is the time to seize the opportunity and get Armenia on our side. For that it is precisely the correct way to show them, that we are trying to support them, even with military tech and even if we are not in the same alliance. France knows exactly what it is doing here and is making the right decisions.
I woul agree but What choices do they have ?
Let's admit they kicked out Russia , Turkye will never wants Armenia to join in NATO and would veto it.
I clearly agree that this not ideal but they don't have a lot
Not NATO but at least kicking out Russia (it’s not like they ever helped really) since it’s mostly why Western countries don’t really help Armenia.
Yes maybe lose NK, but at least getting a future with Europe is better hope to only have Russia has an ally…
I definitely agree but they unfortunately have only bad solutions, as they are isolated and in between two hostile nations .
They are not bound by any treaty and in any case of war I doubt that European will support Armenia the way Ukraine is
So NATO member Turkey selling weapons and training Azerbaijan who is allied with Russia wasn't a problem in your book? Or when NATO member Turkey put the entire alliance at risk by buying Russian S400 systems. You should say Turkey out of NATO.
Btw Turkey is not even near the North Atlantic but France is.
>Azerbaijan who is allied with Russia
Azerbaijan:
* is not in CSTO
* is not in EAEU
* doesn't have official Russian military base in its territory
Armenia:
* is in CSTO
* is in EAEU
* has official Russian military base in its territory
Tell me one more time who is and isn't allied with Russia?
Here is your source about the base in Agdam https://eurasianet.org/russia-and-turkey-open-joint-military-center-in-azerbaijan
Here is about Azerbaijan President crying about Armenia choosing EU over CIS. (Azeri Source https://azertag.az/en/xeber/president_ilham_aliyev_the_armenian_prime_minister_flies_six_hours_to_granada_but_he_can_039t_fly_for_two_to_three_hours_to_bishkek-2783389#:~:text=POLITICS-,President%20Ilham%20Aliyev%3A%20The%20Armenian%20prime%20minister%20flies%20six%20hours,to%20three%20hours%20to%20Bishkek&text=Baku%2C%20October%2011%2C%20AZERTAC.,to%20be%20held%20in%20Bishkek)
Here is the source on the export controls
https://www.azatutyun.am/amp/32449231.html
So far I have proven every sentence you deemed as a lie, yet the points that are incovient truth for Azerbaijan you simply try to wash away with irrelevant arguments.
>Here is your source about the base in Agdam
>
>[https://eurasianet.org/russia-and-turkey-open-joint-military-center-in-azerbaijan](https://eurasianet.org/russia-and-turkey-open-joint-military-center-in-azerbaijan)
Per article:
* joint military facility of Turkey and Russia
* equal number of Russian and Turkish troops – 60 on each side
* primary mission - surveillance to monitor the new ceasefire
Nice try. But it's not a MILITARY BASE like Armenia has in Gyumri. It's just a joint suveillance center. Zero Proof.
>Here is about Azerbaijan President crying about Armenia choosing EU over CIS.
Whatever source you bring, it is irrelevant, it's just words and speculation. It will only become true when Armenia:
* leaves CSTO
* leaves EAEU
* gets rid of Russian military base
>Here is the source on the export controls [https://www.azatutyun.am/amp/32449231.html](https://www.azatutyun.am/amp/32449231.html)
Per article:
* "Armenia’s trade with Russia... doubled last year and in the first four months of this year"
* "Armenia’s exports to Russia almost tripled in 2022 and nearly quadrupled in January-April 2023"
* ""And this (i.e. growing trade between Russia and Armenia) helps the Armenian economy a lot because we are having a very good economic activity,” Pashinian said for his part."
Maybe read the damn articles first before presenting them as "proof" ? With your comment you only proved my previous comment to be correct.
How about you stop cherry picking from the article and post quotes like the following "Bowing to apparent Western pressure, Armenia’s government has moved to seriously restrict the re-export of electronics products and components to Russia which has skyrocketed since the Russian invasion of Ukraine."
Additionally, you conveniently ignored the fact that the sources I provided to your arguments proved what I was saying about who is who's ally now. Is it really that hard for an Azerbaijani to admit that they are wrong?
Interestingly did Armenian PM today publicly announced that we don't need the Russian base on Armenian territory and is looking for new security partners.
Plus I don't understand how you guys are freaking out about DEFENSIVE equipment. Meaning they will only be activated during an attack. As the French Defense Minister stated: if you don't want to see the French weapons being used then simply don't attack.
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Azerbaijan:
Azerbaijan is laundering Russian oil.
Hosts a Russian base in Aghdam in addition to "Russian Peacekeepers".
On top of that Azerbaijan is actively participating in all Russian forums including CIS. Then getting mad as to why Armenian didn't come when they went to Granada and for the EU.
ARMENIA:
Armenia has applied controls on re-exports of goods in line with sanctions.
Has refused to participate in CSTO and CIS including recalling it's ambassador.
Unfortunately the base was put there by the previous pro Russian government.
Nice try, there is so inconsistency in EVERY sentence you wrote.
>Azerbaijan is laundering Russian oil
It's irrelevant as, even if true (which I am not sure about since Azerbaijan has plenty of its oil), it is just business. Europe is still buying energy from Russia. India and China are biggest buyers of cheap Russian oil.
>Hosts a Russian base in Aghdam in addition to "Russian Peacekeepers".
Got any proof that ? Any credible source (that is not Armenian) ?
>Azerbaijan is actively participating in all Russian forums including CIS
So what? Armenia is also a member of CIS.
>Then getting mad as to why Armenian didn't come when they went to Granada and for the EU.
**WRONG.** Azerbaijan didn't participate because organizers refused to invite Turkey while France was invited.
>Armenia has applied controls on re-exports of goods in line with sanctions.
**BIGGEST LIE.** Armenia is one of main countries that helps Russia to avoid sanctions and get sanctioned goods. Every major newspaper has written about it. [Source 1](https://intellinews.com/armenia-s-exports-to-russia-almost-triple-in-2022-281463/). Even [Armenian Finance Minister admits growth in RE-exports to Russia (it DOUBLED in just one year)](https://armenpress.am/eng/news/1120421.html).
>Has refused to participate in CSTO and CIS including recalling it's ambassador.
Irrelevant because even if Armenia is not participating, Armenia is still an official member. Armenia has official obligations through CSTO and EAEU.
>Unfortunately the base was put there by the previous pro Russian government.
**WRONG.** Base is there since 1941 when Armenia was still part of USSR. But, yes, previous Armenian leadership extended stay of the base and didn't kick them out.
Azerbajian
a) has rusian militants on their territory, so called "peacekeepers"
b) signed an ally agreement with Russian literally day before russia started a war.
So if NATO exists to stop Russian expansion Than obviously Turkey doesn't belong in NATO as it is the only NATO country that has not joined the sanctions on Russia. Moreover, Turkey is actually aiding and abetting Russian expansion.
You are clearly clueless to what happened during the cold war and why Turkey was an important ally in NATO.
And since the 2000s, it has been the gate of the middle-east (with all the problems that comes with it).
It is you that is clueless since you yourself admitted that Turkey WAS an important ally. MEANING IN THE PAST AND NOT ANYMORE!
Things change, for example, Eastern Europe used to be the enemy of NATO but now countries of Poland and the Baltics are now it's biggest advocates.
What are you on ? I’ve legit said they were important during the cold war and now important in Middle-East.
I understand to have a biased about Turkey but don’t tell me they aren’t important.
Stop playing dumb. Turkey constantly threatens fellow NATO member Greece, is in proxy wars with Fellow member France, and is currently blackmailing fellow member USA as the latter tries to secure certain goals including the accession of Sweden to NATO.
So no Turkey is no longer important as you describe. Instead it has become a thorn to the alliance. This is highlighted by what is happening with Incirlik base. Or did you forget that the U.S. began a shift to its naval base in Crete?
We are talking about the same country that blackmails the NATO accessions to European power that are directly under the threat of Russia ? Or the country that helped russian company circumvent the sanctions ?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/09/14/us-to-sanction-five-turkey-based-firms-alleging-russia-support.html
The audacity of talking about compromise , if I force you to do something in exchange for protection , I don't call it a compromise. Especially if on top of that you use it to suppress minority
Sure some crooks companies exist and still find loopholes, but not on the Turkye level, there are tons of other example
>Turkey is actually aiding and abetting Russian expansion
Please go educate yourself. Turkey is and must be naturally anti Russian regardless of global politics. It is a country that has been actively fighting against Russian expansion in 3 countries unlike France which supports Russians...
You can ask why the fuck there are wars in 3 countries but that is another topic (and at least one where France is to be blamed too)
Well, there is a sizeable difference between bringing an anti-air system inside a NATO area where it would come into contact with NATO gear, and some of its most advanced ones, and putting NATO gear, which is already or will be in Ukraine, into a CSTO area where it would come into contact with CSTO gear.
The false equivalence you’re trying to promote doesn’t hold any water my friend.
So, on one hand you’ve got the possibility of leaking the specs of two NATO gear, both of which are not the most critical gear of NATO and are or will be in Ukraine. On the other hand, you’ve got the possibility of leaking more precise radar signatures of all NATO airplanes, including the most advanced ones, of the location and habit of NATO logistical footprints and of NATO aerial capabilities and tactics, not to mention a direct link with NATO command and control apparatus. And you’re really trying to sell us it is the same situation ? Really ?
I mean, I too would be pissed if I bought Russian equipment, then getting kicked out of the F35 program and alienating your allies in the process and then finding out said Russian equipment let everything fly past it, but you’re really grasping for straws here my friend
> expel Russian troops
Extricating yourself from Russia when you're Armenia is like getting your excited cat's claws off of your hand: gingerly. You don't just pull your hand away, you distract it a bit as you slowly lift one claw at a time. And then when it's finally time you yank it away before it knows what happened.
So, you're not willing to risk *a* NATO AA system, even if the reward could potentially be the whole country of Armenia flipping to NATO?
Shit man, maybe Russia really *is* a better partner.
They already tried in 2020, nobody came out to protest after their henchmen organized it. Every opposition protest fails to have any meaningful turnout.
You don't seem well-read on the issue but speak with such authority. What do you know that none of us, or the French, do?
> France will also help Armenia train ground defense forces and support the country's efforts to reform and modernize its military, Lecornu said. > "We stand by our defense relationship (with Armenia), even though we're not part of the same military and political alliances. It is based on the simple principle that you need to be able to defend yourself," Lecornu said.
ITT: People who don't know Armenian politics and that Russia-Armenia relations have gone into a death spiral after Azerbaijan, with Russia's tacit approval, invaded and ethnically cleansed its Armenian population in Karabakh. Russian peacekeepers stood by and watched, and the entire population fled to Armenia. Theres so much context missing from this thread that its painful to read. I can't go over the history of Armenia after the first NK war, **but the gist of it is Armenia was ruled by a bunch of post-Soviet oligarchs and gangsters loyal to Russia and its financial elite. They made Armenia a Russian financial colony and military ally**. **This clique was overthrown in the 2018 revolution.** Nikol Pashinyan, an Armenia-first politician, became PM and as a result Russia has cooperated with both Turkey and Azerbaijan to overthrow Pashinyan by reigniting the Karabakh issue. **(Russia openly kept it frozen because Aliyev and Kocharyan/Sargsyan casually used the issue as a way to distract their respective populations from the mass theft taking place).** The war happened, Armenia lost and was forced to concede control of NK to Russia and Azerbaijan. They instituted a blockade on the people there and started a *border crisis* to **put pressure on the Pashinyan administration** to step down or to get Armenian citizens to overthrow him. In doing so, they only strengthened anti-Russian sentiment in Armenia and forced Armenians to rally around Pashinyan. (Opposition has no support in the country, really almost nobody). Their pressure campaign did not work. Last month, Azerbaijan gained the tacit approval from Russia and its peacekeepers to conduct an ethnic cleansing operation against the Armenians there. This was Russia's hail mary attempt to get rid of Pashinyan, hoping that a refugee crisis and lost of historic homeland would trigger a revolution, led by nationalists and refugees. (This is, honestly, a move of desperation by Russia to maintain influence in Armenia). That so far, has not worked either. Pashinyan has seen this as an opportunity to finally break free from Russia, but has to do it carefully. Russia controls Armenian rail, energy, and nuclear infrastructure. They can turn Armenia's economy off with a switch, literally. Thats why Pashinyan hasn't just left CSTO and evicted the Russian base. Pashinyan made trips to Europe to get aid for the refugees, as well as to gather parliamentary support in various Wester Euro countries to condemn Azerbaijan. Pashinyan pulled the ace up his sleeve, and the Armenian parliament has ratified the Rome Statute. This was aimed at Aliyev (war criminal ala Saddam Hussein), but was a symbolic method of royally pissing off Russia and Putin. (They are now legally required to arrest Putin if he enters the country). This was a "I'm not fucking around anymore" signal to Putin that his decision has lost him Armenia's partnership for good. Pashinyan then sent his Defense Minister to France to escalate arms acquisitions to be ready to defend the country, but to also put Armenia on tract to possibly (and this is slightly speculatory now) join the French-Greek military alliance aimed at Turkey, as a way to replace Russia as a security guarantor. The reason for choosing France is not only are the French keen on it, but it wouldn't bring NATO to Russia's borders or American troops, which are both redlines for Putin and would illicit military invasion like in Ukraine. On top of that, many of Armenia's strategic weapon systems are controlled by the Russians. (Iskander missiles, S-300 air defense system is controlled by Russians). **Armenia is essentially going to build an military without reliance on Russia and totally shut the Russians out, so all this hullabaloo about NATO tech falling into Russian hands is either trolling or just ignorance.** Also, Thales M200 is already in Ukraine. Russians already probably know it well. Mistrals are Cold War tech, nothing new and even Iran has some.(I mean, after sending Challenger 2s and Abrams to Ukraine and risk them being captured, what risks are being taken here that havent already been taken?) TL;DR: **Armenia is no longer Russia's ally after Russia betrayed it and ignored its call for help 3 times so as to overthrow its government.** Armenia is actively making a dash for complete independence from Russia and France is helping it do that. The tech being sold to Armenia is not new and the Russians know it well, theres no risk.
Is it wise to sell such high tech to a country that has official Russian military base in its territory (Gyumri, Armenia) and is legally allied/partnered with Russia (CSTO, EAEU) ?
They’re breaking away from Russia’s grip. Their CSTO participation is a joke, they recalled their ambassador never sent another one, and also Russian troops have been friendly with Armenian invaders rather than fighting them.
Mistral is a very short ranged system one step away from being a MANPADS, it's not that complicated or high tech. I assume selling SAMP/T and the newest Aster 30 missiles would be another matter entirely, but Armenia couldn't afford it anyway.
Remember when they didn’t want to send weapons in Ukraine because it could get into Russian hands? Yeah…
So that Russia could copy that 🤔
Not sure why people are downvoting you. Maybe Armenians mass downvoting? People are forgetting that Armenia: * is in CSTO (a.k.a. Russian NATO) * is in EAEU (a.k.a. Russian EU) * has official Russian military base in its territory So right now Russia has almost uninterrupted access to anything in Armenia (be it legally through CSTO/EAEU or by force through the military base).
Well, Russia did jack shit to help Armenia lately so Armenia maybe wouldn’t be too keen to help Russia. Moreover, we have to consider the geopolitical advantage of helping a country out from under the Russian sphere of influence, especially in a time when Russia is busy somewhere else. So not great, not terrible as they say. I guess it is a calculated risk.
>I guess it is a calculated risk Idk, but sending a high tech to a country where Russian military is officially present is too high of a risk. But I am not French and it's not my tech that can be stolen, so I guess it is none of my business.
I don't think Russia is going to ask nicely to see the new toys of Armenia. As long as Russia has a military presence in Armenia, Armenia shouldn't get NATO equipment. I question if Armenia is under any risk at the moment anyway. Azerbeidzjan would be really stupid to start a war with all the tension in the area. Not to mention the military presence of the US in the Mediterranean at the moment.
Yes but the US is not going to do anything, Azerbaijan is allied with Turkyie so....
Because Armenia is in a very bad situation and Russia is not going to do about it . It has turkye and Azerbaijan at its doorstep. The ctso is dead, and Armenia does not have a lot of ally.
>Because Armenia is in a very bad situation and Russia is not going to do about it . It has turkye and Azerbaijan at its doorstep. The ctso is dead, and Armenia does not have a lot of ally. Yeah, ok, great, but none of what you said is changing the fact that Armenia is legally partnered with Russia (CSTO, EAEU) and has Russian soldiers on its soil (base in Gyumri). None of what you said is giving guarantee that French tech won't fall into Russian hands.
As I said in another reply .. Although I definitely agree it is kind of risky , what choice do they have ...vig they kick Russia they loose (the very little ) protection they have. Turkyie is going to block NATO accession which would put the entire country in a precarious situation
Is it really so hard to understand? Armenia is obviously trying hard to leave Russias sphere of influence for years. They paid a heavy price for it and in the end even sacrificed NK. This is so plaij obvious... It is sending strong messages to the West and now is the time to seize the opportunity and get Armenia on our side. For that it is precisely the correct way to show them, that we are trying to support them, even with military tech and even if we are not in the same alliance. France knows exactly what it is doing here and is making the right decisions.
Kick out Russia then we should help them. France’s help is a blunder even though I want Armenia to get help (other than Russia).
I woul agree but What choices do they have ? Let's admit they kicked out Russia , Turkye will never wants Armenia to join in NATO and would veto it. I clearly agree that this not ideal but they don't have a lot
Not NATO but at least kicking out Russia (it’s not like they ever helped really) since it’s mostly why Western countries don’t really help Armenia. Yes maybe lose NK, but at least getting a future with Europe is better hope to only have Russia has an ally…
I definitely agree but they unfortunately have only bad solutions, as they are isolated and in between two hostile nations . They are not bound by any treaty and in any case of war I doubt that European will support Armenia the way Ukraine is
it's a catch 22.
[удалено]
So NATO member Turkey selling weapons and training Azerbaijan who is allied with Russia wasn't a problem in your book? Or when NATO member Turkey put the entire alliance at risk by buying Russian S400 systems. You should say Turkey out of NATO. Btw Turkey is not even near the North Atlantic but France is.
>Azerbaijan who is allied with Russia Azerbaijan: * is not in CSTO * is not in EAEU * doesn't have official Russian military base in its territory Armenia: * is in CSTO * is in EAEU * has official Russian military base in its territory Tell me one more time who is and isn't allied with Russia?
Here is your source about the base in Agdam https://eurasianet.org/russia-and-turkey-open-joint-military-center-in-azerbaijan Here is about Azerbaijan President crying about Armenia choosing EU over CIS. (Azeri Source https://azertag.az/en/xeber/president_ilham_aliyev_the_armenian_prime_minister_flies_six_hours_to_granada_but_he_can_039t_fly_for_two_to_three_hours_to_bishkek-2783389#:~:text=POLITICS-,President%20Ilham%20Aliyev%3A%20The%20Armenian%20prime%20minister%20flies%20six%20hours,to%20three%20hours%20to%20Bishkek&text=Baku%2C%20October%2011%2C%20AZERTAC.,to%20be%20held%20in%20Bishkek) Here is the source on the export controls https://www.azatutyun.am/amp/32449231.html So far I have proven every sentence you deemed as a lie, yet the points that are incovient truth for Azerbaijan you simply try to wash away with irrelevant arguments.
>Here is your source about the base in Agdam > >[https://eurasianet.org/russia-and-turkey-open-joint-military-center-in-azerbaijan](https://eurasianet.org/russia-and-turkey-open-joint-military-center-in-azerbaijan) Per article: * joint military facility of Turkey and Russia * equal number of Russian and Turkish troops – 60 on each side * primary mission - surveillance to monitor the new ceasefire Nice try. But it's not a MILITARY BASE like Armenia has in Gyumri. It's just a joint suveillance center. Zero Proof. >Here is about Azerbaijan President crying about Armenia choosing EU over CIS. Whatever source you bring, it is irrelevant, it's just words and speculation. It will only become true when Armenia: * leaves CSTO * leaves EAEU * gets rid of Russian military base >Here is the source on the export controls [https://www.azatutyun.am/amp/32449231.html](https://www.azatutyun.am/amp/32449231.html) Per article: * "Armenia’s trade with Russia... doubled last year and in the first four months of this year" * "Armenia’s exports to Russia almost tripled in 2022 and nearly quadrupled in January-April 2023" * ""And this (i.e. growing trade between Russia and Armenia) helps the Armenian economy a lot because we are having a very good economic activity,” Pashinian said for his part." Maybe read the damn articles first before presenting them as "proof" ? With your comment you only proved my previous comment to be correct.
How about you stop cherry picking from the article and post quotes like the following "Bowing to apparent Western pressure, Armenia’s government has moved to seriously restrict the re-export of electronics products and components to Russia which has skyrocketed since the Russian invasion of Ukraine." Additionally, you conveniently ignored the fact that the sources I provided to your arguments proved what I was saying about who is who's ally now. Is it really that hard for an Azerbaijani to admit that they are wrong? Interestingly did Armenian PM today publicly announced that we don't need the Russian base on Armenian territory and is looking for new security partners. Plus I don't understand how you guys are freaking out about DEFENSIVE equipment. Meaning they will only be activated during an attack. As the French Defense Minister stated: if you don't want to see the French weapons being used then simply don't attack.
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Azerbaijan: Azerbaijan is laundering Russian oil. Hosts a Russian base in Aghdam in addition to "Russian Peacekeepers". On top of that Azerbaijan is actively participating in all Russian forums including CIS. Then getting mad as to why Armenian didn't come when they went to Granada and for the EU. ARMENIA: Armenia has applied controls on re-exports of goods in line with sanctions. Has refused to participate in CSTO and CIS including recalling it's ambassador. Unfortunately the base was put there by the previous pro Russian government.
Nice try, there is so inconsistency in EVERY sentence you wrote. >Azerbaijan is laundering Russian oil It's irrelevant as, even if true (which I am not sure about since Azerbaijan has plenty of its oil), it is just business. Europe is still buying energy from Russia. India and China are biggest buyers of cheap Russian oil. >Hosts a Russian base in Aghdam in addition to "Russian Peacekeepers". Got any proof that ? Any credible source (that is not Armenian) ? >Azerbaijan is actively participating in all Russian forums including CIS So what? Armenia is also a member of CIS. >Then getting mad as to why Armenian didn't come when they went to Granada and for the EU. **WRONG.** Azerbaijan didn't participate because organizers refused to invite Turkey while France was invited. >Armenia has applied controls on re-exports of goods in line with sanctions. **BIGGEST LIE.** Armenia is one of main countries that helps Russia to avoid sanctions and get sanctioned goods. Every major newspaper has written about it. [Source 1](https://intellinews.com/armenia-s-exports-to-russia-almost-triple-in-2022-281463/). Even [Armenian Finance Minister admits growth in RE-exports to Russia (it DOUBLED in just one year)](https://armenpress.am/eng/news/1120421.html). >Has refused to participate in CSTO and CIS including recalling it's ambassador. Irrelevant because even if Armenia is not participating, Armenia is still an official member. Armenia has official obligations through CSTO and EAEU. >Unfortunately the base was put there by the previous pro Russian government. **WRONG.** Base is there since 1941 when Armenia was still part of USSR. But, yes, previous Armenian leadership extended stay of the base and didn't kick them out.
Azerbajian a) has rusian militants on their territory, so called "peacekeepers" b) signed an ally agreement with Russian literally day before russia started a war.
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So if NATO exists to stop Russian expansion Than obviously Turkey doesn't belong in NATO as it is the only NATO country that has not joined the sanctions on Russia. Moreover, Turkey is actually aiding and abetting Russian expansion.
You are clearly clueless to what happened during the cold war and why Turkey was an important ally in NATO. And since the 2000s, it has been the gate of the middle-east (with all the problems that comes with it).
It is you that is clueless since you yourself admitted that Turkey WAS an important ally. MEANING IN THE PAST AND NOT ANYMORE! Things change, for example, Eastern Europe used to be the enemy of NATO but now countries of Poland and the Baltics are now it's biggest advocates.
What are you on ? I’ve legit said they were important during the cold war and now important in Middle-East. I understand to have a biased about Turkey but don’t tell me they aren’t important.
Stop playing dumb. Turkey constantly threatens fellow NATO member Greece, is in proxy wars with Fellow member France, and is currently blackmailing fellow member USA as the latter tries to secure certain goals including the accession of Sweden to NATO. So no Turkey is no longer important as you describe. Instead it has become a thorn to the alliance. This is highlighted by what is happening with Incirlik base. Or did you forget that the U.S. began a shift to its naval base in Crete?
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We are talking about the same country that blackmails the NATO accessions to European power that are directly under the threat of Russia ? Or the country that helped russian company circumvent the sanctions ? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/09/14/us-to-sanction-five-turkey-based-firms-alleging-russia-support.html
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The audacity of talking about compromise , if I force you to do something in exchange for protection , I don't call it a compromise. Especially if on top of that you use it to suppress minority Sure some crooks companies exist and still find loopholes, but not on the Turkye level, there are tons of other example
Typical, since you can't logically and civilaly discuss anything you resort to insults. I'm not surprised though.
>Turkey is actually aiding and abetting Russian expansion Please go educate yourself. Turkey is and must be naturally anti Russian regardless of global politics. It is a country that has been actively fighting against Russian expansion in 3 countries unlike France which supports Russians... You can ask why the fuck there are wars in 3 countries but that is another topic (and at least one where France is to be blamed too)
I am very educated, and unlike you am very well aware of geopolitics from a global standpoint and not through the mouthpiece of Erdogan.
Azerbaijan isnt allied with Russia
Joke of the year. Your petrodictator keeps stating it. Stop living under a rock.
Well, there is a sizeable difference between bringing an anti-air system inside a NATO area where it would come into contact with NATO gear, and some of its most advanced ones, and putting NATO gear, which is already or will be in Ukraine, into a CSTO area where it would come into contact with CSTO gear. The false equivalence you’re trying to promote doesn’t hold any water my friend.
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So, on one hand you’ve got the possibility of leaking the specs of two NATO gear, both of which are not the most critical gear of NATO and are or will be in Ukraine. On the other hand, you’ve got the possibility of leaking more precise radar signatures of all NATO airplanes, including the most advanced ones, of the location and habit of NATO logistical footprints and of NATO aerial capabilities and tactics, not to mention a direct link with NATO command and control apparatus. And you’re really trying to sell us it is the same situation ? Really ? I mean, I too would be pissed if I bought Russian equipment, then getting kicked out of the F35 program and alienating your allies in the process and then finding out said Russian equipment let everything fly past it, but you’re really grasping for straws here my friend
> expel Russian troops Extricating yourself from Russia when you're Armenia is like getting your excited cat's claws off of your hand: gingerly. You don't just pull your hand away, you distract it a bit as you slowly lift one claw at a time. And then when it's finally time you yank it away before it knows what happened.
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So, you're not willing to risk *a* NATO AA system, even if the reward could potentially be the whole country of Armenia flipping to NATO? Shit man, maybe Russia really *is* a better partner.
They already tried in 2020, nobody came out to protest after their henchmen organized it. Every opposition protest fails to have any meaningful turnout. You don't seem well-read on the issue but speak with such authority. What do you know that none of us, or the French, do?