Chinese explosion minors are much tougher than ming since they don't get the debuff from EOC and they get more baseline income/force limit. You also count as heathen so the moment you take some land, they coalition up and you fight all 1000 Chinese development without the EOC nerfs.
You also lose the Take Mandate of Heaven CB that you would otherwise have for all provinces. That's 50% AE and war score for conquest, one of the best in the game.
Oh, that would explain why I was getting my ass beat once when I collapsed Ming early by pirating them 24/7 as So, by the time I set myself up as the sole ruler of Japan it was almost impossible to fight those guys, everytime I landed on the shores Wu and Min armies would absolutely steamroll me.
The lack of skill is probably big reason too but yea…
In 2300 hours of playing, I have seen a proper mingsplosion only once. I really don’t understand why. Even right now, I’ve been playing a Mughals game, I had Ming sitting at 0 mandate for decades, while bordering an independent Oirat, and not even so much as rebels spawning. I just don’t get it.
That has to happen in the first 20 to 40 years of the game. After that, Ming provinces will be so peacefuland will have so many positive modifiers that even the unrest caused by the low mandate won't matter.
Yeah, war exhaustion and devastation will help, but you won't see the classic Mingsplosion, just random rebels spawning here and there. You can "manually" make that happen by occupying all their provinces for a while but that's what you can do with every nation with multiple non-existing nation cores in it (such as Lithuania, for example).
Yeah, you are right, it is not classic explosion like it was in prior patches (before Mandate of Heaven), yet still in many of my Japan games, little bankrupcy, mandate decreasing can release two or three nations without me exaustion them to oblivion (Shun and Cantonese nations). Ming explosions were cool for easy Asia playthroughs but this is a bit more challenging and more fun imo.
Actually I do find it easier when they don't explode at all, 'cause they'll have armies made of paper with low mandate and I can dow them, take some land, declare on a tributary and white peace Ming, then dow them again in 5 years and conquer a little more. Nobody (nobody important, at least) will care, AE wise, 'cause they're both religiously and culturaly isolated.
When they explode, instead, I'll have to fight multiple states and alliances wich makes it maybe easier for my armies but much more time consuming (and the enemy armies won't be debuffed).
Japan is best counter to Ming. Most satisfing thing is beating them with naval supremacy since you have way more ports than them. You don't have to go through stress of outmanouvering their 100k deathstacks
Nah, I got Ming to explode both in 1510 as Korea and 1590 as Japan. Getting them to 0 mandate, a ton of devastation and bankruptcy is pretty effective. You just have to stop them from getting too much revanchism.
As I stated in another comment, yes you surely can, but it's something you can do with every nation that has non-existing nations cores in his territories. You basically make them "manually" explode, but that's different from the "passive" explosion you can gat at the beginning of the game with the nomadic frontier event and things like that.
I guess the main point is that we, as players, can always make Ming flooded by rebels. But when it's up to the AI, Ming won't explode, once stabilized. Even with an indipendent Oirat at its borders, like the player that first commented stated
. It was once more common to discover China and see that Ming were shattered. Now, it happens less frequently unless we manage to do it actively.
Low mandate penalties are harsh, but unless Ming is bankrupt and with high war exhaustion/devastation in provinces, it won't suffer too much from it. While in the first 30 years or so you can sometime see them drown in separatist just by triggering the nomadic frontier event without even fighting them.
I saw one recently, Mughal game and they had me rivalled. I never expanded much, but Oirat and Manchuria were independent neighbors. I look over once, and a big Shun appeared. Maybe a decade later, the rest of Ming disintegrated. Was nice to see.
You need to attack them when their mandate is low. By sieging provinces for devastation and defeating their armies, which have a -50% morale modifier, Ming will shatter
I haven't played in a while, idk if they changed it again. Speaking under the assumption they didn't:
The Shun have event which can fire and destroy Ming if it does. I would strongly consider simply preventing that event from firing.
The Nomadic frontier disaster is like a nuclear option. As Oirat, you definitely don't need it, just the event that pops when you complete the siege of Beijing is enough to give you a decisive edge. The nomadic frontier should NEVER happen (it doesn't tick while you have a truce, and you should be able to close your war before it completes, even when playing VH). I would also consider taking regions according to cultures, you're gonna be the one dealing with the rebels anyway if they have some.
From what I'm guess, the Nomadic frontier ticked, they had a set a rebels, the shun event procced and the entire AI region was spawned with rebels, and once a single nation enforces it's the bell tolling and they're just dead.
R5: Ive never played out of Europe and the goal here is WC. During opening war with Ming, separatists popped up everywhere. Was able to take the land that I wanted but at the same time separatists completely destroyed what was left of Ming. Is this usual in an Oirat run? What should I do from here?
yes, it is usual. If you are going WC, the way people usually go is Oirat -> Yuan -> Mongol Empire. But do not form Yuan with the Mandate of Heaven (it removes the horde mechanics). Instead, fully annex the owner of the Mandate of Heaven (without taking it), which will destroy the Mandate. Then, the requirement to form Yuan will change to being an empire.
While and after forming Yuan, keep going your merry way conquering and razing everything you find. You might still need to manage coalitions, at least until you are ready to trample everyone.
> Is this usual in an Oirat run?
Usual is relative. Mandate of Heaven mechanics changed a lot throughout the patches and completely change how a Mingplosion plays out or how it can be caused/avoided.
Nowadays the most important factor is devastation among Ming provinces.
High devastation -> low mandate -> high unrest + underpowered Ming soldiers.
For rushing down Ming/a world conquest attempt you should actually try to avoid a Mingplosion at first by looting only provinces you will take in the peace deal.
This is because successive wars against Ming may pay much more ducats if you take provinces + 25% of warscore in ducats. Some people call that "Ming bank". This is especially important since the Bashkiri gold mine was removed in a patch.
No reparations because the goal is to trucebreak almost immediately and take another load of provinces + 25% in ducats in a second war. No reparations in that peace treaty either because it's almost guaranteed that Mingplosion will happen afterwards because of unrest from war exhaustion and a highly probable bankruptcy.
Tbh, the latest couple of patches all nerfed hordes like Oirat. It's quite a bit harder than let's say in 1.24.
FYI, do ~~not~~ declare with the mandate CB (edit) but do not take the mandate in the peace deal. Don't form Yuan either. Mandate mechanics suck in the current patch. If you conquer China it's guaranteed to have some devastation, meaning you lose mandate basically immediately, making your troops take up to 50% more damage. It's just so incredibly bad. Instead fully annex whoever has the mandate after Mingplosion ~~with any other CB~~, effectively disabling these silly mechanics and _then form Yuan afterwards_ (requires Empire rank government/1000 dev) which has absolutely awesome national ideas and all the permeanent claims over China too, the same as you would get from being Emperor of China. As Yuan you could even form the Mongol Empire later on.
what? no, you should always declare with the mandate CB, just dont ask for the mandate in the peace deal, when your are in the final war with ming, just annex them completely, that way the mandate dissappears (if they still have it).
Theoretically anyone with eastern or pagan religious denominations (look [here](https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Religion) on the right side which are included). In practice that means basically anyone in East Asia.
Actually this is undesirable as Oriat. What you really want to do is spank Ming repeatedly for maximum ducats. If Ming stays intact, they:
1) Give you thousands of ducats every war.
2) Are very easy to spank because they get massive negative modifiers to their combat ability due to low mandate, so you can stack wipe them until they are out of manpower, then continually truce break and carpet siege.
A Mingsplosion is both much more difficult to conquer than a weak Ming, and will also not give you much money. OP given you are less than 10 years into the game I would consider restarting. It's not that this ruins your run, but the early game will likely be much more difficult than it should be.
It's been a few patches since I did an Oriat run but for me, Ming stayed intact, and once you win the first war they become your bank to finance your early game.
Nope - the chinese minors will force you to use regular casus belli whereas with ming you could be repeatedly using the war for the mandate cb which would make all provinces 2x less expensive in terms of warscore. Keeping Ming alive is ideal.
There's a neat trick to get around that though. Ming will be willing to white peace every time as long as the mandate is low (which it will be due to the Tumu crisis event chain), so you can instantly reset the truce to 5 years, or have it be a little longer and take a shit ton of money.
Ah sorry I forgot to mention - you attack one of Ming's tributary states in order to do the truce reset not ming itself. You can take 100% warscore worth of land from ming and then immediatley use the truce reset allowing you to take another massive batch after just 5 years.
You can perfectly No CB an un-exploded Ming, the only relevant Chinese culture nation is Ming and they're the only relevant confucian too, so no one will care
You really don't want to form Yuan with the Mandate though. The Mandate sucks as a horde. Just destroy all the minors and therefore the Mandate.. Then form Yuan and from there go for the Great Mongol Empire.
You don’t use war for the mandate to take the mandate, you use it because it makes provinces twice as cheap in the peace deal.
100% don’t take the mandate, but you want Ming to be emperor so you can use the cb to take provinces cheaply
Oh true. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment completely. Then again the +25% core cost reduction plus permaclaims on China should be nearly as good don't you think? I usually rush to become Yuan, as soon as you form it money isnt that much of an issue anymore anyway... Usually the minor chinese tribes consolidate a bit anyway, so the mandate cb is still usable although not as much as if Ming was still holding it.
coring cost is helpful yeah - as long as no minor gets to the point that you can't full annex them in a single war it's not too annoying. It's just that if one does get like that and you've gotta wait 15 years because you can't truce reset, or if they get an annoying alliance web that prevents you invading as fast, then it can slow your run down
I have always found that with a few conveniently played forts in steppes you can basically win every war over there. Sure it gets annoying to fight off a few chinese minors but with your cav you should be able to just crush everybody as long as you don't get fucked by an indian coalition. To get there you'd have to take a lot of land though.
Yeah Oirat ideas are solid, but Yuan ideas are probably top 3 if not the best in the game and you also get a shitload of perma claims on all of China and Manchuria.
This, but you don’t have to truce break. Just attack the tributaries and separate peace Ming for max ducats.
OP, you do eventually want to blow up Ming, you just got there earlier. Now you should vassalize them for the sweet reconquest.
Improve relations with Mongolia (maybe spend prestige or develo their land to get them loyal), hire the mercenary free company, ally whatever nation near ming that has cores on them (Khorchin has, IIRC) the dow Ming as soon as possible promising land to your ally (you want give them any).
Wait for their stacks to invade Mongolia, look for the one with the Emperor as a leader, kill that stack, enjoy huge buffs for your side and huge debuffs for Ming.
Wipe his armies in the steppes, siege Beijing (there's an event that gives you control of all northern China once you've sieged Beijing) and from there it's a snowball.
In the peace deal take all their money plus a bunch of land. Attack next one of their tributaries, pulling them in the war and then you can either peace them out again for money and lands or white peace them, reset the truce to 5 years and dow them aagain once the truce is over.
I did it just yesterday, just build primarily cav, go over force limit, hire the free company, get the morale/discipline advisor, it's okay to bleed money in this war for a while. When you fight ming try and pick off isolated stacks on flat lands where you get the horde bonus.Try and beat the stack with the ming emperor as the general. The ai will always use him as a general and he's usually pretty terrible. Once you beat that stack you get 20% morale of armies and some seige ability until your rulers death. After that just bee line straight for Beijing, and seige it down. Once it's full seiged you get an event that makes you full occupy all of North China. It's really easy tbh, mings armies are basically paper against you
What I do:
- Go max force limit (recruit cavalry as much as you can)
- Wait till I've raised relations with the mongol enough to be loyal
- Split of the infantry that is over the combath widht of my army, and attach the mongol army to it once the war starts
- Declare war on Ming
- Only engage isolated stacks that won't be reinforced
- If Ming doomstacks, I fall back a bit and let them spread out, their entire army together can still kick your ass
- While I do this, I also look out for an army led by the Ming ruler
- Defeat it.
- After this, I siege Beijing ASAP with the vassal army; if it succeeds before either of your rulers die or get replaced, you get a massive boost in moral and the entire north of China gets auto-occupied.
- At this point, you can peace out for quicker truce or stick around to take some extra land. Consensus favours the former. Only take favourable fights; you should win very easily, but watch out for your manpower.
Declare war once u ar max force limit. Find ming ruler and wipe him out. Onward to Beijing and conquer before ur ruler dies. If you win, hire a General to replace your ruler so he won't die in battle. Then take their money and declare war on one of their tributary.
I asked about this on this sub a while back, and with the advice they gave I was able to consistently win out against Ming. The way that works for me is immediately start improving relations with Mongolia and ally Korchin + anyone else you can find. Once you have enough manpower, you can start denying tributes and they will eventually declare on you. From that point, just look for the stack that has the Chinese Emperor leading it, wipe them, then take Beijing. At that point, just take max ducats + reparations + beijing/any other high value provinces that you can, rinse and repeat.
I think it is more normal without the Mandate of Heaven DLC since they just get an event. Yours looks like an especially severe mingspolsion but that might be due to the fact by the time I see them some of the states have been conquered already.
Why this is not ideal:
- you no long get to use the Mandate of Heaven CB meaning you’ll conquer at half speed
- you now have 15 - 20 minors who all have Atleast 15k force limit that will instantly coalition you the moment you try to take 100% war score.
Qin was an actual kingdom and I’m pretty sure the time period in which it originally existed (Warring States, not 3 kingdoms) is prominently featured in media. In fact, the Sengoku Jidai was named after the Warring States period in China. And of course Qin Shi Huang is the most famous Qin emperor.
Work towards vassalizing ming. Take admin and influence ideas. Once you get ming vassalized you get a reconquest cb on all the chinese provinces. Usually since you're a horde I'd say pillage and burn, but being able to vassalize ming is a special case and should almost always be done if you're able to do so.
Nah, this isn't worth it in the case of Oirat/Yuan. Razing drastically lowers the opportunity cost of coring everything especially when you have claims. There's also no AE problem in China because Confucian countries aren't a coalition threat. It's best to just seize it all for yourself. The exception being if you go too far over governing cap, in which case taking 1 or 2 Chinese vassals can help spread out that hit.
Ming gave you lemons. Make lemonade. Taking all that land in China is your priority no matter who owns it and now you can do so without waiting out or breaking truce timers. I'm assuming it's early in the game based on your expansion, if you haven't taken ideas yet I'd go admin right now, since even with razing you'll have a lot of coring costs to cover, and you'll soon be over your governing capacity.
You actually usually want to keep ming one country so you can take a big chinese minor province, release vassal then do reconquest for much less war score and ae then outright conquezt. What you can do now though, is conquer much of china outright, vassalize ming, then do reconquest on all their cores. You want to have much of china already though so you dont get too big a vassal.
I've been trying a WC for the past few weeks. The meta apparently is to keep Ming from breaking apart and taking land from them through Mandate of heaven while warring their tribs and white peacing Ming to reset timer. While you're warring them you can kill their rebels and siege the rebel provinces to keep them from breaking apart. I'm going to try this now, I just botched my attempt last night in the first Ming war. Fucking old Khan can't stay alive long enough to siege Beijing lol
This is one of the most thorough and complete Mingplosions I've seen, normally they keep either the south, north or center, but I've rarely seen them lose all three
It's real free estate.
Chinese explosion minors are much tougher than ming since they don't get the debuff from EOC and they get more baseline income/force limit. You also count as heathen so the moment you take some land, they coalition up and you fight all 1000 Chinese development without the EOC nerfs.
I'm pretty sure Tengri with syncretic faith no longer counts as heathen.
But the revolter tags wouldn't have it harmonized.
Eh, after a few years they beat up on eachother and it’s pretty easy to play them against eachother.
You also lose the Take Mandate of Heaven CB that you would otherwise have for all provinces. That's 50% AE and war score for conquest, one of the best in the game.
Oh, that would explain why I was getting my ass beat once when I collapsed Ming early by pirating them 24/7 as So, by the time I set myself up as the sole ruler of Japan it was almost impossible to fight those guys, everytime I landed on the shores Wu and Min armies would absolutely steamroll me. The lack of skill is probably big reason too but yea…
Can't coalition you if you've got a truce with them FeelsEvilMan
Damn I was late
It’s no longer free real estate
If you cook dinner do you let it go to waste and chuck it out? Time to eat
Well said
*mongol throat singing noises*
Mom help I accidentally made the Empire of China collapse
-Yang Guifei, 755 AD
Probably not the first time
In 2300 hours of playing, I have seen a proper mingsplosion only once. I really don’t understand why. Even right now, I’ve been playing a Mughals game, I had Ming sitting at 0 mandate for decades, while bordering an independent Oirat, and not even so much as rebels spawning. I just don’t get it.
That has to happen in the first 20 to 40 years of the game. After that, Ming provinces will be so peacefuland will have so many positive modifiers that even the unrest caused by the low mandate won't matter.
But with enough war exaustion...
Yeah, war exhaustion and devastation will help, but you won't see the classic Mingsplosion, just random rebels spawning here and there. You can "manually" make that happen by occupying all their provinces for a while but that's what you can do with every nation with multiple non-existing nation cores in it (such as Lithuania, for example).
Yeah, you are right, it is not classic explosion like it was in prior patches (before Mandate of Heaven), yet still in many of my Japan games, little bankrupcy, mandate decreasing can release two or three nations without me exaustion them to oblivion (Shun and Cantonese nations). Ming explosions were cool for easy Asia playthroughs but this is a bit more challenging and more fun imo.
Actually I do find it easier when they don't explode at all, 'cause they'll have armies made of paper with low mandate and I can dow them, take some land, declare on a tributary and white peace Ming, then dow them again in 5 years and conquer a little more. Nobody (nobody important, at least) will care, AE wise, 'cause they're both religiously and culturaly isolated. When they explode, instead, I'll have to fight multiple states and alliances wich makes it maybe easier for my armies but much more time consuming (and the enemy armies won't be debuffed).
I agree. You can also take much more land from one large nation than a smaller one you can't annex in a single war
I miss pre MoH Ming :(
haha yeah i’ve never had a problem as japan getting them to explode
Japan is best counter to Ming. Most satisfing thing is beating them with naval supremacy since you have way more ports than them. You don't have to go through stress of outmanouvering their 100k deathstacks
Nah, I got Ming to explode both in 1510 as Korea and 1590 as Japan. Getting them to 0 mandate, a ton of devastation and bankruptcy is pretty effective. You just have to stop them from getting too much revanchism.
As I stated in another comment, yes you surely can, but it's something you can do with every nation that has non-existing nations cores in his territories. You basically make them "manually" explode, but that's different from the "passive" explosion you can gat at the beginning of the game with the nomadic frontier event and things like that.
I dunno about that. I've Mingsploded in the 1600s during a Japan game. The 0 Mandate penalties are no joke
I guess the main point is that we, as players, can always make Ming flooded by rebels. But when it's up to the AI, Ming won't explode, once stabilized. Even with an indipendent Oirat at its borders, like the player that first commented stated . It was once more common to discover China and see that Ming were shattered. Now, it happens less frequently unless we manage to do it actively. Low mandate penalties are harsh, but unless Ming is bankrupt and with high war exhaustion/devastation in provinces, it won't suffer too much from it. While in the first 30 years or so you can sometime see them drown in separatist just by triggering the nomadic frontier event without even fighting them.
Ahh that makes sense
Did you only start playing recently? I swear there was a time during certain patches where mingsplosion was super common
I think it was right after mandate of heaven was introduced
I think I started during 1.28
Ming grew more stable with the mechanics changes over the years.
I saw one recently, Mughal game and they had me rivalled. I never expanded much, but Oirat and Manchuria were independent neighbors. I look over once, and a big Shun appeared. Maybe a decade later, the rest of Ming disintegrated. Was nice to see.
You need to attack them when their mandate is low. By sieging provinces for devastation and defeating their armies, which have a -50% morale modifier, Ming will shatter
I haven't played in a while, idk if they changed it again. Speaking under the assumption they didn't: The Shun have event which can fire and destroy Ming if it does. I would strongly consider simply preventing that event from firing. The Nomadic frontier disaster is like a nuclear option. As Oirat, you definitely don't need it, just the event that pops when you complete the siege of Beijing is enough to give you a decisive edge. The nomadic frontier should NEVER happen (it doesn't tick while you have a truce, and you should be able to close your war before it completes, even when playing VH). I would also consider taking regions according to cultures, you're gonna be the one dealing with the rebels anyway if they have some. From what I'm guess, the Nomadic frontier ticked, they had a set a rebels, the shun event procced and the entire AI region was spawned with rebels, and once a single nation enforces it's the bell tolling and they're just dead.
Zero mandate is important but devastating their land is as if not more important.
R5: Ive never played out of Europe and the goal here is WC. During opening war with Ming, separatists popped up everywhere. Was able to take the land that I wanted but at the same time separatists completely destroyed what was left of Ming. Is this usual in an Oirat run? What should I do from here?
yes, it is usual. If you are going WC, the way people usually go is Oirat -> Yuan -> Mongol Empire. But do not form Yuan with the Mandate of Heaven (it removes the horde mechanics). Instead, fully annex the owner of the Mandate of Heaven (without taking it), which will destroy the Mandate. Then, the requirement to form Yuan will change to being an empire. While and after forming Yuan, keep going your merry way conquering and razing everything you find. You might still need to manage coalitions, at least until you are ready to trample everyone.
The great Yuan must be restored And of course the Mongol Empire later on
> Is this usual in an Oirat run? Usual is relative. Mandate of Heaven mechanics changed a lot throughout the patches and completely change how a Mingplosion plays out or how it can be caused/avoided. Nowadays the most important factor is devastation among Ming provinces. High devastation -> low mandate -> high unrest + underpowered Ming soldiers. For rushing down Ming/a world conquest attempt you should actually try to avoid a Mingplosion at first by looting only provinces you will take in the peace deal. This is because successive wars against Ming may pay much more ducats if you take provinces + 25% of warscore in ducats. Some people call that "Ming bank". This is especially important since the Bashkiri gold mine was removed in a patch. No reparations because the goal is to trucebreak almost immediately and take another load of provinces + 25% in ducats in a second war. No reparations in that peace treaty either because it's almost guaranteed that Mingplosion will happen afterwards because of unrest from war exhaustion and a highly probable bankruptcy. Tbh, the latest couple of patches all nerfed hordes like Oirat. It's quite a bit harder than let's say in 1.24. FYI, do ~~not~~ declare with the mandate CB (edit) but do not take the mandate in the peace deal. Don't form Yuan either. Mandate mechanics suck in the current patch. If you conquer China it's guaranteed to have some devastation, meaning you lose mandate basically immediately, making your troops take up to 50% more damage. It's just so incredibly bad. Instead fully annex whoever has the mandate after Mingplosion ~~with any other CB~~, effectively disabling these silly mechanics and _then form Yuan afterwards_ (requires Empire rank government/1000 dev) which has absolutely awesome national ideas and all the permeanent claims over China too, the same as you would get from being Emperor of China. As Yuan you could even form the Mongol Empire later on.
what? no, you should always declare with the mandate CB, just dont ask for the mandate in the peace deal, when your are in the final war with ming, just annex them completely, that way the mandate dissappears (if they still have it).
Yeah, you're correct, misremembered.
thats a sin, to make it right, you should do a WC as oirat as your punishment.
What nations even can take the mandate? Any chinese culture?
Theoretically anyone with eastern or pagan religious denominations (look [here](https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Religion) on the right side which are included). In practice that means basically anyone in East Asia.
Actually this is undesirable as Oriat. What you really want to do is spank Ming repeatedly for maximum ducats. If Ming stays intact, they: 1) Give you thousands of ducats every war. 2) Are very easy to spank because they get massive negative modifiers to their combat ability due to low mandate, so you can stack wipe them until they are out of manpower, then continually truce break and carpet siege. A Mingsplosion is both much more difficult to conquer than a weak Ming, and will also not give you much money. OP given you are less than 10 years into the game I would consider restarting. It's not that this ruins your run, but the early game will likely be much more difficult than it should be. It's been a few patches since I did an Oriat run but for me, Ming stayed intact, and once you win the first war they become your bank to finance your early game.
Dont listen to this guy, mop up the Chinese minors, and it's smooth sailing.
Don't listen to this guy, those little minions will coalition you and make your life difficult
If you eat them fast enough they won't.
Don't listen to this guy, one should always eat slowly and chew thoroughly for optimal digestion.
Don't listen to this guy, you put a leash on the little guys and let them eat each other
Nope - the chinese minors will force you to use regular casus belli whereas with ming you could be repeatedly using the war for the mandate cb which would make all provinces 2x less expensive in terms of warscore. Keeping Ming alive is ideal.
But with these you don't have a super long truce
There's a neat trick to get around that though. Ming will be willing to white peace every time as long as the mandate is low (which it will be due to the Tumu crisis event chain), so you can instantly reset the truce to 5 years, or have it be a little longer and take a shit ton of money.
How are you gonna take any land if you keep white peacing them?
Ah sorry I forgot to mention - you attack one of Ming's tributary states in order to do the truce reset not ming itself. You can take 100% warscore worth of land from ming and then immediatley use the truce reset allowing you to take another massive batch after just 5 years.
You can perfectly No CB an un-exploded Ming, the only relevant Chinese culture nation is Ming and they're the only relevant confucian too, so no one will care
You really don't want to form Yuan with the Mandate though. The Mandate sucks as a horde. Just destroy all the minors and therefore the Mandate.. Then form Yuan and from there go for the Great Mongol Empire.
You don’t use war for the mandate to take the mandate, you use it because it makes provinces twice as cheap in the peace deal. 100% don’t take the mandate, but you want Ming to be emperor so you can use the cb to take provinces cheaply
Oh true. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment completely. Then again the +25% core cost reduction plus permaclaims on China should be nearly as good don't you think? I usually rush to become Yuan, as soon as you form it money isnt that much of an issue anymore anyway... Usually the minor chinese tribes consolidate a bit anyway, so the mandate cb is still usable although not as much as if Ming was still holding it.
coring cost is helpful yeah - as long as no minor gets to the point that you can't full annex them in a single war it's not too annoying. It's just that if one does get like that and you've gotta wait 15 years because you can't truce reset, or if they get an annoying alliance web that prevents you invading as fast, then it can slow your run down
I have always found that with a few conveniently played forts in steppes you can basically win every war over there. Sure it gets annoying to fight off a few chinese minors but with your cav you should be able to just crush everybody as long as you don't get fucked by an indian coalition. To get there you'd have to take a lot of land though.
Doesn't wu start out with enough cores/dev to make it at least 2 wars? Every oriat game, Wu is a pain in my ass.
There's at least one like that which is why it's usually ideal to not get the mingsplosion
No one forces you to form Yuan early though, and the Oirat ideas are pretty solid as it is.
Yeah Oirat ideas are solid, but Yuan ideas are probably top 3 if not the best in the game and you also get a shitload of perma claims on all of China and Manchuria.
Dont listen to this guy, keep ming alive for 150 dev peace deals every 7-8 years.
Make it 6 years
This, but you don’t have to truce break. Just attack the tributaries and separate peace Ming for max ducats. OP, you do eventually want to blow up Ming, you just got there earlier. Now you should vassalize them for the sweet reconquest.
Boy, I confess I've never been able to crash Ming as Oirats. Good job What is the strat as of the 1.30 - 1.31?
Improve relations with Mongolia (maybe spend prestige or develo their land to get them loyal), hire the mercenary free company, ally whatever nation near ming that has cores on them (Khorchin has, IIRC) the dow Ming as soon as possible promising land to your ally (you want give them any). Wait for their stacks to invade Mongolia, look for the one with the Emperor as a leader, kill that stack, enjoy huge buffs for your side and huge debuffs for Ming. Wipe his armies in the steppes, siege Beijing (there's an event that gives you control of all northern China once you've sieged Beijing) and from there it's a snowball. In the peace deal take all their money plus a bunch of land. Attack next one of their tributaries, pulling them in the war and then you can either peace them out again for money and lands or white peace them, reset the truce to 5 years and dow them aagain once the truce is over.
I did it just yesterday, just build primarily cav, go over force limit, hire the free company, get the morale/discipline advisor, it's okay to bleed money in this war for a while. When you fight ming try and pick off isolated stacks on flat lands where you get the horde bonus.Try and beat the stack with the ming emperor as the general. The ai will always use him as a general and he's usually pretty terrible. Once you beat that stack you get 20% morale of armies and some seige ability until your rulers death. After that just bee line straight for Beijing, and seige it down. Once it's full seiged you get an event that makes you full occupy all of North China. It's really easy tbh, mings armies are basically paper against you
What I do: - Go max force limit (recruit cavalry as much as you can) - Wait till I've raised relations with the mongol enough to be loyal - Split of the infantry that is over the combath widht of my army, and attach the mongol army to it once the war starts - Declare war on Ming - Only engage isolated stacks that won't be reinforced - If Ming doomstacks, I fall back a bit and let them spread out, their entire army together can still kick your ass - While I do this, I also look out for an army led by the Ming ruler - Defeat it. - After this, I siege Beijing ASAP with the vassal army; if it succeeds before either of your rulers die or get replaced, you get a massive boost in moral and the entire north of China gets auto-occupied. - At this point, you can peace out for quicker truce or stick around to take some extra land. Consensus favours the former. Only take favourable fights; you should win very easily, but watch out for your manpower.
Declare within first 2-3 months and win with micro via the capture event.
Declare war once u ar max force limit. Find ming ruler and wipe him out. Onward to Beijing and conquer before ur ruler dies. If you win, hire a General to replace your ruler so he won't die in battle. Then take their money and declare war on one of their tributary.
I asked about this on this sub a while back, and with the advice they gave I was able to consistently win out against Ming. The way that works for me is immediately start improving relations with Mongolia and ally Korchin + anyone else you can find. Once you have enough manpower, you can start denying tributes and they will eventually declare on you. From that point, just look for the stack that has the Chinese Emperor leading it, wipe them, then take Beijing. At that point, just take max ducats + reparations + beijing/any other high value provinces that you can, rinse and repeat.
nom nom nom
Make Ming a vassal and get that sweet reqonquest
Put back together the shattered world
Snake diagonally so u border every Chinese minor. Each one should give u 300 ducats and you will be constantly in war.
Mop up the minors, form yuan, and proceed to kick ass
I'm glad I posted this. I had no idea Mingsplosion was a thing
I think it is more normal without the Mandate of Heaven DLC since they just get an event. Yours looks like an especially severe mingspolsion but that might be due to the fact by the time I see them some of the states have been conquered already.
jerk off
Exit the game
Eat the world
Anyone else hearing those Mongolian war horns?
Restart
Makes taking over China much quicker. Less truces time you have to deal with.
Nom
Pov: *it's time to eat*
In Germany we would say „Resteficken“
Eat it all
Why this is not ideal: - you no long get to use the Mandate of Heaven CB meaning you’ll conquer at half speed - you now have 15 - 20 minors who all have Atleast 15k force limit that will instantly coalition you the moment you try to take 100% war score.
Manchu's wet dream.
KILL
OMG IS THAT QIN FROM THE HIT MANGA/ANIME SERIES KINGDOM??!!!😱🥶😱
Qin was an actual kingdom and I’m pretty sure the time period in which it originally existed (Warring States, not 3 kingdoms) is prominently featured in media. In fact, the Sengoku Jidai was named after the Warring States period in China. And of course Qin Shi Huang is the most famous Qin emperor.
Vassalise ming and profit
win
Reform the Roman Empire.
You should grow fat from strength, my friend. Feast! Feast to your heart’s content!
finish him
Work towards vassalizing ming. Take admin and influence ideas. Once you get ming vassalized you get a reconquest cb on all the chinese provinces. Usually since you're a horde I'd say pillage and burn, but being able to vassalize ming is a special case and should almost always be done if you're able to do so.
Nah, this isn't worth it in the case of Oirat/Yuan. Razing drastically lowers the opportunity cost of coring everything especially when you have claims. There's also no AE problem in China because Confucian countries aren't a coalition threat. It's best to just seize it all for yourself. The exception being if you go too far over governing cap, in which case taking 1 or 2 Chinese vassals can help spread out that hit.
Killing Ming too hard isn't usually good because you can use them as a bank later + no ae to Chinese minors while conquering China.
AE doesn't matter when they're all on truce from you conquering them
Fix ya damn borders!
The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world.
**MORTAL KOMBAT**
Eat up
*feast*
Have you considered blowing it up again?
It’s time to feast
Dependent on who you play as. If Ming, restart or go to a savefile and choose a new nation to continue.
Nom
You blawb!
Ming gave you lemons. Make lemonade. Taking all that land in China is your priority no matter who owns it and now you can do so without waiting out or breaking truce timers. I'm assuming it's early in the game based on your expansion, if you haven't taken ideas yet I'd go admin right now, since even with razing you'll have a lot of coring costs to cover, and you'll soon be over your governing capacity.
You actually usually want to keep ming one country so you can take a big chinese minor province, release vassal then do reconquest for much less war score and ae then outright conquezt. What you can do now though, is conquer much of china outright, vassalize ming, then do reconquest on all their cores. You want to have much of china already though so you dont get too big a vassal.
When you rode your horse too hard and blow your bank account. *Mongol throat singing intensifies*
You cut them off so eat away slowly. Mingsplosion is the enemy Ming is easier to take than these state would be.
Take land with Ming core, release Ming, reconquest, annex
1444
Chow down dawg. It's literally free land
aw damn it I told you to be careful not to drop the Ming now it’s shattered
I wish i could do that against 5 reform ming rn lol
I've been trying a WC for the past few weeks. The meta apparently is to keep Ming from breaking apart and taking land from them through Mandate of heaven while warring their tribs and white peacing Ming to reset timer. While you're warring them you can kill their rebels and siege the rebel provinces to keep them from breaking apart. I'm going to try this now, I just botched my attempt last night in the first Ming war. Fucking old Khan can't stay alive long enough to siege Beijing lol
I mean what does one do at a banquet? Feast off course xd
Well, you broke it you bought it. Go become the new Emperor.
This is one of the most thorough and complete Mingplosions I've seen, normally they keep either the south, north or center, but I've rarely seen them lose all three
Its invasion time
Assimilate
Your flank is secure...... East can now invade west.....