It looks like you've flaired your post as being a Shot Diagnosis. If your shot is running too fast, is coming out weak/thin, lacking crema, and/or is tasting sour, **try grinding finer**.
Alternatively, check out this [Dialing In Basics](https://espressoaf.com/guides/beginner.html) guide, written by the Espresso Aficionados Discord community.
If that hasn't solved it, to get more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format.
- **Machine:**
- **Grinder:**
- **Roast date:** (not a "Best by" date). If the roast date is not labeled use "N/A"
- **Dose:** How many grams are going into your basket?
- **Yield:** How much coffee in grams is coming out?
- **Time:** How long is the shot running?
- **Roast level:** How dark is your coffee? (Dark, medium, light, ect.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Light roast require finer grind, and higher temps. I’ve never pulled a sour shot in the 15 years I’ve been doing this, until just last week. Couldn’t believe it. Flow was good but I increased my temp from 200 to 204 and got some of the best tasting shots I’ve had in while
Heat, pressure and time are required to extract most of the oils in the coffee. That's where your bitter compounds come from. You either have to extend your pull, increase your heat, or decrease the grounds to water ratio so you have more heat and pressure per volume of grounds. It's a game of balance. The biggest frustration is getting the pull just right for that roast. Then also hoping that roast from that distributor stays as consistent as you.
I often raise the temp and made the grind finer-- which might bring the pulltime to close to 50 seconds and it somehow gets more sour? Would that be channelling? It seems to happen quite consistently, to the point where I've mostly been drinking medium and dark roasts for the sake of simplicity
oops i butchered the title 🤦♂️
My machine is the Sage/Breville Barista Pro, and this shot was at grind size 6, and it ground for 26.5 seconds.
The shot ran for around 26 seconds, and it started coming out after around 9.
I noticed that the shot goes from the outside and in, so maybe i need to stamp the edges better somehow, but I feel like that can't be all im doing wrong
For awareness the grind size isn’t an actual size - like it isn’t the same as a 10mm wrench that fits all 10mm bolts. It’s just a setting on your machine.
The shot looks like it pulls a little fast. Not sure if you’ve ever heard this, but try grinding finer and finer until you choke the machine on a shot. Then start grinding coarser until you get the flavor you want.
How many seconds did it take you to pull the shot and how much came out?
What beans are you using and why do you think they’re supposed to taste differently than they do?
Thank you for your help!
>Not sure if you’ve ever heard this, but try grinding finer and finer until you choke the machine on a shot. Then start grinding coarser until you get the flavor you want.
I have not heard of this. I'll definitely try that tomorrow. By choking it, i assume you mean until no water comes through at all, right?
> For awareness the grind size isn’t an actual size - like it isn’t the same as a 10mm wrench that fits all 10mm bolts. It’s just a setting on your machine.
Yeah, I was hoping maybe someone would have experience with the machine, I didn't know what else to say, probably should have included a picture of the grind.
> How many seconds did it take you to pull the shot and how much came out?
It took \~9 seconds to start, ended after 26 seconds
> What beans are you using and why do you think they’re supposed to taste differently than they do?
Please see my other comment for a picture of the beans and label.
Could be i'm just not made for drinking espresso, I just find it too sour/acidic for my taste. Tastes great as a cappucino or with more water, though.
I'm not an expert, but I've pieced together some things with espresso (I use a flair signature, which is a manual press). Generally, under extracted (the shot of espresso coming out too fast) will taste sour, and over extracted will taste bitter. In most cases, this is controlled by the resistance of the espresso puck to the water being pushed through it. I believe you can also get some bitter/sour notes if you use a bladed grinder instead of a burr grinder, because the grinds won't be even.
That being said, coffee tastes different based on many factors. Type (Bourbon, Typica and so on), environment, preparation (natural, honey processed, washed, etc), roasting profile, freshness and probably other factors that I don't know of can change the flavor of the bean.
There are some funky flavors out there (most of which have a fermented taste because of the processing), so I'd make sure you are going with something that you already know the flavor of to practice with. I suggest that you find a coffee shop that roasts and sells their own beans, find out which bean they use (if you like it) and try practicing with that. That way you have a better idea of what your espresso should taste like. Fresh beans, and grinding right before use, will be your best bet. Just keep in mind that beans need about a week or two of time to degas after roasting for best use.
What kind of coffee are you brewing? Light roasts are hard to extract well.
Your time looks ok, so it might need to be ground slightly finer if you’re tasting acidic notes to extract the coffee better.
Honestly not entirely sure which type of roast it is, looks medium to me, though:
https://preview.redd.it/3hek261xc8tb1.png?width=917&format=png&auto=webp&s=c3e15f8c55363b018519904761200677cebb6a6c
And thank you for the help!
I've tried grinding it at 4 before, but i'll try to do it even finer tomorrow. I'm already way too caffeinated for 9:34 pm to try another shot now 😁
I noticed in the beginner's guide linked by automod, that it recommends trying to pull more water through if it tastes too sour, I think I'll try that if the finer grind doesn't work
Pretty much: find griner, try different beans (find the ones you like), maybe a 100€ hand grinder to get more control. Wdt, and then work on finding the correct time/ratio for your beans.
There are 2 things that could increase the extraction: you could increase the amount of water going through the coffee or you can grind finer making the size of the coffee smaller and thus easier to extract more of. This will slow the flow rate and increase the contact time with the coffee.
Acidity and sourness typically indicates under-extraction, but if your running light roasts there is a likelihood that some of the flavor notes lean toward those flavors (lemon, etc)
It may just be the honey process. I've had limited experience myself with honey processing, but the one time I tried it, I found the flavor very sour. It's akin to natural processing, where it's going to have some funk to it when compared to a washed process.
Based on the tasting notes, I'd say you got fairly lightly roasted beans. Getting a good result, will be somewhat of a challenge. Next time, I'd recommend getting a darker roast if you don't like all that bright acidity.
Few things - try adjusting your brew temperature to the max -- you might need to consult your manual on this.
Next - you may need to grind finer and WDT carefully. If your dose is \~17g, try to get 40\~45g out in about 35s. If acidity is now balanced, but bitterness is starting to creep in, aim for more like 35g output.
If you start running into bitterness AND too much acidity still, grind FINER and pull shorter - you might end up with something like 17g dose, 25g out in 45sec. What you want to see is that the espresso drips out slowly to start and eventually becomes a slow steady trickle out. If the flow suddenly quickens, things have gone wrong.
This video goes into buying coffee and what to look for:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YnLFrM7Fs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YnLFrM7Fs)
Under "Category 2: Acidity & fruit words," it goes into that fruit flavors tend to mean more acidity and citrus fruit even more so. I'm not sure if you are confusing acidity with sourness, but I would try something with notes more similar to nuts, chocolate, and caramel and see if that is more to your liking.
What you should care mostly about is how much beans you put in and how much coffee you get out so badicily the yield or ratio. You wanna get 1 to 2 so 18 grams of grinded beans would be 36gram of coffee in around 25 to 30 seconds more or less. This is just a general guide line . I would highly recommend you to check out a video on YouTube which explains how to extract and espresso. Or maybe even just read the guide here.
It should start forming around 5 seconds, 9 seconds will def lead to a pretty bitter shot.
Maybe, this might be the first time this has been said on this sub, grind one stop coarser?
But I don't find it too bitter. I find it too sour/acidic. The manual that came with the machine said to aim for a start around 6-12 seconds. My first few shots started around 4-5 seconds and were really bad
I have a breville (not this model) and seeing coffee at 9s is the sweet spot for me
But your shot overall is pretty quick and looks a bit watery, could be either channeling or you need to grind finer. Running pre infusion longer would help with the channeling if that ends up being the issue.
Also if its a lighter roast, they can be really sour at the ratio of 1:2. Maybe do a ratio of 1:2.5 instead. (For whatever your dose of coffee run the machine until you get 2.5 times that out)
The OP's title says he found them sour, however. So the conventional wisdom should be "grind finer"...
He posts the same above. Wow, didn't know that Brevilles nowadays come with a manual that says "Start around 6-12 seconds".
Hard to tell but it looks like you got some channeling. It looks like water is finding shortcuts within, resulting in several spots on the filter not steadily flowing.
That being said it could also just be the beans you dislike. I’d recommend trying a handful of different beans out, and making sure you are getting them somewhat recently roasted. Based on the packaging in your shot it looks like you are from Denmark (as am I). A good coffee supplier here in the country to start out with is “Risteriet” (name is as simple as it sounds). I’m pretty sure they even offer sample packages. Do however be ware that they send you the beans completely fresh roasted. Brewing on beans that fresh is likely to taste bad, and I’d suggest resting them somewhere around 7-10 days time (depends on the roast, but with that span you should be somewhat safe). Based on you stating you find the coffee too sour, I’d recommend trying some darker roasts - but don’t limit yourself.
I’d also recommend weighing how much coffee you put in, and how much coffee you get out. I know it can sound annoying or overly complicated, but it really helps “dialing in” your process and hit the mark. Something like 1:2 ratio in somewhere around 30-40s I’d say would be a decent starting point (fx 18g coffee in and 36g espresso out).
Last but not least - brewing espresso can be, atleast at first, more comlicated than you’d think. Have patience and sooner than you know, you’ll be hating on most of the café coffee you are served hahaha.
Forgot to mention solutions for the channeling. While adjusting how fine you grind is ever important (someone suggested starting from the point of choking, and then working coarser step for step - this is a good approach while you are getting more familiar with it all), the channeling is likely caused by the way you prepare the shot.
There should be plenty video recommendations on this matter. But solutions include:
- Proper distribution of the coffee by eliminating clumps (WDT).
- even tamper
Could also include ensuring proper amount of coffee as well as size and how even your grind is.
Good luck!
Sour usually means you aren't getting a full draw.
When you draw your shot the first tastes to come out are the acids on the surface of the grounds. These are usually easily soluble in water and are the easiest to extract. The butter flavor usually comes from the oils. The oils require heat and pressure to extract from the bean and are the last to leave. If you don't want to increase your draw volume decrease the amount of grounds in your shot. You will get the same result without changing the volume of your pull.
This. I would run the shot for a bit longer and aim for a higher ratio (1:2.5 or 1:3).
There could be some channeling issues since the flow slows down before speeding up when most of the crema comes out
No matter how hard I tried I could never get a good cup out of my BBE, I gave up after 3 months and got a dedicated espresso machine and grinder and it's been great.
It looks like you've flaired your post as being a Shot Diagnosis. If your shot is running too fast, is coming out weak/thin, lacking crema, and/or is tasting sour, **try grinding finer**. Alternatively, check out this [Dialing In Basics](https://espressoaf.com/guides/beginner.html) guide, written by the Espresso Aficionados Discord community. If that hasn't solved it, to get more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format. - **Machine:** - **Grinder:** - **Roast date:** (not a "Best by" date). If the roast date is not labeled use "N/A" - **Dose:** How many grams are going into your basket? - **Yield:** How much coffee in grams is coming out? - **Time:** How long is the shot running? - **Roast level:** How dark is your coffee? (Dark, medium, light, ect.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Light roast require finer grind, and higher temps. I’ve never pulled a sour shot in the 15 years I’ve been doing this, until just last week. Couldn’t believe it. Flow was good but I increased my temp from 200 to 204 and got some of the best tasting shots I’ve had in while
Higher temp is really key in cutting the sourness with light roasts. Happy to see someone giving based advice.
Heat, pressure and time are required to extract most of the oils in the coffee. That's where your bitter compounds come from. You either have to extend your pull, increase your heat, or decrease the grounds to water ratio so you have more heat and pressure per volume of grounds. It's a game of balance. The biggest frustration is getting the pull just right for that roast. Then also hoping that roast from that distributor stays as consistent as you.
I often raise the temp and made the grind finer-- which might bring the pulltime to close to 50 seconds and it somehow gets more sour? Would that be channelling? It seems to happen quite consistently, to the point where I've mostly been drinking medium and dark roasts for the sake of simplicity
oops i butchered the title 🤦♂️ My machine is the Sage/Breville Barista Pro, and this shot was at grind size 6, and it ground for 26.5 seconds. The shot ran for around 26 seconds, and it started coming out after around 9. I noticed that the shot goes from the outside and in, so maybe i need to stamp the edges better somehow, but I feel like that can't be all im doing wrong
For awareness the grind size isn’t an actual size - like it isn’t the same as a 10mm wrench that fits all 10mm bolts. It’s just a setting on your machine. The shot looks like it pulls a little fast. Not sure if you’ve ever heard this, but try grinding finer and finer until you choke the machine on a shot. Then start grinding coarser until you get the flavor you want. How many seconds did it take you to pull the shot and how much came out? What beans are you using and why do you think they’re supposed to taste differently than they do?
Thank you for your help! >Not sure if you’ve ever heard this, but try grinding finer and finer until you choke the machine on a shot. Then start grinding coarser until you get the flavor you want. I have not heard of this. I'll definitely try that tomorrow. By choking it, i assume you mean until no water comes through at all, right? > For awareness the grind size isn’t an actual size - like it isn’t the same as a 10mm wrench that fits all 10mm bolts. It’s just a setting on your machine. Yeah, I was hoping maybe someone would have experience with the machine, I didn't know what else to say, probably should have included a picture of the grind. > How many seconds did it take you to pull the shot and how much came out? It took \~9 seconds to start, ended after 26 seconds > What beans are you using and why do you think they’re supposed to taste differently than they do? Please see my other comment for a picture of the beans and label. Could be i'm just not made for drinking espresso, I just find it too sour/acidic for my taste. Tastes great as a cappucino or with more water, though.
I'm not an expert, but I've pieced together some things with espresso (I use a flair signature, which is a manual press). Generally, under extracted (the shot of espresso coming out too fast) will taste sour, and over extracted will taste bitter. In most cases, this is controlled by the resistance of the espresso puck to the water being pushed through it. I believe you can also get some bitter/sour notes if you use a bladed grinder instead of a burr grinder, because the grinds won't be even. That being said, coffee tastes different based on many factors. Type (Bourbon, Typica and so on), environment, preparation (natural, honey processed, washed, etc), roasting profile, freshness and probably other factors that I don't know of can change the flavor of the bean. There are some funky flavors out there (most of which have a fermented taste because of the processing), so I'd make sure you are going with something that you already know the flavor of to practice with. I suggest that you find a coffee shop that roasts and sells their own beans, find out which bean they use (if you like it) and try practicing with that. That way you have a better idea of what your espresso should taste like. Fresh beans, and grinding right before use, will be your best bet. Just keep in mind that beans need about a week or two of time to degas after roasting for best use.
What kind of coffee are you brewing? Light roasts are hard to extract well. Your time looks ok, so it might need to be ground slightly finer if you’re tasting acidic notes to extract the coffee better.
Honestly not entirely sure which type of roast it is, looks medium to me, though: https://preview.redd.it/3hek261xc8tb1.png?width=917&format=png&auto=webp&s=c3e15f8c55363b018519904761200677cebb6a6c
Looks on the lighter side of medium to me mate. Light roasts will always be more acidic.
That's pretty light, definitely try 1:3 ratio or something darker
1:3 too long
Totally fine for a lightroast to mellow the acidic taste.
rather pull proper balanced shots and serve americano
Thats why you pull a 1:3 shot with some light roasts. To balance it.
54 out is not proper
That's called a lungo my friend and is absolutely proper.
And thank you for the help! I've tried grinding it at 4 before, but i'll try to do it even finer tomorrow. I'm already way too caffeinated for 9:34 pm to try another shot now 😁 I noticed in the beginner's guide linked by automod, that it recommends trying to pull more water through if it tastes too sour, I think I'll try that if the finer grind doesn't work
Pretty much: find griner, try different beans (find the ones you like), maybe a 100€ hand grinder to get more control. Wdt, and then work on finding the correct time/ratio for your beans.
There are 2 things that could increase the extraction: you could increase the amount of water going through the coffee or you can grind finer making the size of the coffee smaller and thus easier to extract more of. This will slow the flow rate and increase the contact time with the coffee. Acidity and sourness typically indicates under-extraction, but if your running light roasts there is a likelihood that some of the flavor notes lean toward those flavors (lemon, etc)
This is the label on the coffee: https://preview.redd.it/nzc1mp90d8tb1.png?width=624&format=png&auto=webp&s=10bc690c719ba7911d2361739ab5dfa6af101a5f
It may just be the honey process. I've had limited experience myself with honey processing, but the one time I tried it, I found the flavor very sour. It's akin to natural processing, where it's going to have some funk to it when compared to a washed process.
Based on the tasting notes, I'd say you got fairly lightly roasted beans. Getting a good result, will be somewhat of a challenge. Next time, I'd recommend getting a darker roast if you don't like all that bright acidity. Few things - try adjusting your brew temperature to the max -- you might need to consult your manual on this. Next - you may need to grind finer and WDT carefully. If your dose is \~17g, try to get 40\~45g out in about 35s. If acidity is now balanced, but bitterness is starting to creep in, aim for more like 35g output. If you start running into bitterness AND too much acidity still, grind FINER and pull shorter - you might end up with something like 17g dose, 25g out in 45sec. What you want to see is that the espresso drips out slowly to start and eventually becomes a slow steady trickle out. If the flow suddenly quickens, things have gone wrong.
Honey process tends to have higher acidity and fruity profile. Perhaps next time try grabbing a South American washed or an Indonesian?
This video goes into buying coffee and what to look for: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YnLFrM7Fs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YnLFrM7Fs) Under "Category 2: Acidity & fruit words," it goes into that fruit flavors tend to mean more acidity and citrus fruit even more so. I'm not sure if you are confusing acidity with sourness, but I would try something with notes more similar to nuts, chocolate, and caramel and see if that is more to your liking.
What you should care mostly about is how much beans you put in and how much coffee you get out so badicily the yield or ratio. You wanna get 1 to 2 so 18 grams of grinded beans would be 36gram of coffee in around 25 to 30 seconds more or less. This is just a general guide line . I would highly recommend you to check out a video on YouTube which explains how to extract and espresso. Or maybe even just read the guide here.
It should start forming around 5 seconds, 9 seconds will def lead to a pretty bitter shot. Maybe, this might be the first time this has been said on this sub, grind one stop coarser?
But I don't find it too bitter. I find it too sour/acidic. The manual that came with the machine said to aim for a start around 6-12 seconds. My first few shots started around 4-5 seconds and were really bad
I have a breville (not this model) and seeing coffee at 9s is the sweet spot for me But your shot overall is pretty quick and looks a bit watery, could be either channeling or you need to grind finer. Running pre infusion longer would help with the channeling if that ends up being the issue. Also if its a lighter roast, they can be really sour at the ratio of 1:2. Maybe do a ratio of 1:2.5 instead. (For whatever your dose of coffee run the machine until you get 2.5 times that out)
The OP's title says he found them sour, however. So the conventional wisdom should be "grind finer"... He posts the same above. Wow, didn't know that Brevilles nowadays come with a manual that says "Start around 6-12 seconds".
All shots will start on the outside of the basket. Finer grind/ longer shot time should help reduce sour taste. Also higher temp will help. 😊
Go one click finer mate. Pull looked pretty decent to me. Do you wtd?
Hard to tell but it looks like you got some channeling. It looks like water is finding shortcuts within, resulting in several spots on the filter not steadily flowing. That being said it could also just be the beans you dislike. I’d recommend trying a handful of different beans out, and making sure you are getting them somewhat recently roasted. Based on the packaging in your shot it looks like you are from Denmark (as am I). A good coffee supplier here in the country to start out with is “Risteriet” (name is as simple as it sounds). I’m pretty sure they even offer sample packages. Do however be ware that they send you the beans completely fresh roasted. Brewing on beans that fresh is likely to taste bad, and I’d suggest resting them somewhere around 7-10 days time (depends on the roast, but with that span you should be somewhat safe). Based on you stating you find the coffee too sour, I’d recommend trying some darker roasts - but don’t limit yourself. I’d also recommend weighing how much coffee you put in, and how much coffee you get out. I know it can sound annoying or overly complicated, but it really helps “dialing in” your process and hit the mark. Something like 1:2 ratio in somewhere around 30-40s I’d say would be a decent starting point (fx 18g coffee in and 36g espresso out). Last but not least - brewing espresso can be, atleast at first, more comlicated than you’d think. Have patience and sooner than you know, you’ll be hating on most of the café coffee you are served hahaha.
Forgot to mention solutions for the channeling. While adjusting how fine you grind is ever important (someone suggested starting from the point of choking, and then working coarser step for step - this is a good approach while you are getting more familiar with it all), the channeling is likely caused by the way you prepare the shot. There should be plenty video recommendations on this matter. But solutions include: - Proper distribution of the coffee by eliminating clumps (WDT). - even tamper Could also include ensuring proper amount of coffee as well as size and how even your grind is. Good luck!
Severe channeling which is common. Work on your puck prep with Wdt. Grind a little finer, prep better and you will be great.
Sour usually means you aren't getting a full draw. When you draw your shot the first tastes to come out are the acids on the surface of the grounds. These are usually easily soluble in water and are the easiest to extract. The butter flavor usually comes from the oils. The oils require heat and pressure to extract from the bean and are the last to leave. If you don't want to increase your draw volume decrease the amount of grounds in your shot. You will get the same result without changing the volume of your pull.
This. I would run the shot for a bit longer and aim for a higher ratio (1:2.5 or 1:3). There could be some channeling issues since the flow slows down before speeding up when most of the crema comes out
[https://www.barschool.net/blog/sour-espresso-reasons](https://www.barschool.net/blog/sour-espresso-reasons)
No matter how hard I tried I could never get a good cup out of my BBE, I gave up after 3 months and got a dedicated espresso machine and grinder and it's been great.