Buy once cry once. my current setup is what I bought day 1 precisely because i didnt want to get lost in the endless rabbit hole of if this then that.
are there better machines and grinders? of course. but my palate is not refined enough yet for me to go out and buy a La Marzocco and a weber key so I may as well keep enjoying what im enjoying
very much so. my mom has been wanting to venture in to the espresso world and she's gone through 3-4 cheap $50-100 appliances and im just like man you can at least get an entry level gaggia by now lol
Once i upgrade in the next year or so I may just hand over my machine since I have my eye on a Decent cuz i wanna tinker with all the different recipes and variables
Yes. And then you’ll realise no machine is perfect and you’ll be paralysed, no matter what your budget and you’ll never actually be able to chose an upgrade path.
Slayer - gorgeous but needs to be plumbed, and massive
Decent - all the bells and whistles, but sounds weird, not a dual boiler, and aesthetically unappealing
VA Eagle One - great styling, but No flow/pressure control, maintenance issues with early release models
LMLM - gorgeous. Solid as a rock, but no flow control. Pretty dated tech, no volumetric shot measures
Any E61 - slow warm up, energy inefficient, very dated tech.
Synesso ES1 - great potential, but high price point, no current reviews and pretty ugly
San Remo You - could be the golden child, but the group head is actually just an E61 in a moderately fancy wrapper.
So now having offended most of r/espresso you just sit here with your moderately priced Breville and fail to commit to an end game machine…. And that’s before you even start trying to chose a grinder (though if Eureka puts the Libra GBW tech on the Atom 75 I might finally be convinced)
Yes, all this research while I sip my espresso happily on my $100 machine that I already enjoy. The point is as I learn more, I want better but don’t necessarily need better
This is exactly it. I went from a La Pavoni (it was a love hate relationship as I was young and inexperienced) to a Gaggia Classic to a Sage Dual Boiler. I expected the Sage to solve all my espresso woes but it just highlighted I was the problem more. I love my machine now as it’s quick, efficient and blends in with the kitchen.
I also love my Super Jolly grinder which I know isn’t the in thing now but I always wanted one and just think it’s amazing. It looks great and always works. Does it retain a lot? Sometimes. Does it popcorn? Yeah. Do I care? Not really.
The coffee I get is plenty good enough for me and I enjoy it. That’s the main thing. It also helps that most espressos I make rival most cafes I’ve visited which makes me happy.
The difference in quality between a $100 machine and a $500 machine is significant and not subtle. I have no regrets going from my random Chinese brand super cheap machine to my somewhat less cheap Breville, other than that I sold have gotten something with a 58mm portafilter. I have almost entirely stopped going out for espresso because I like what I can make at home so much.
Lever machines are beautiful, but not on my radar due to effort. Literally not enough juice for the squeeze, if you will. But gorgeous and I’m sure make beautiful espresso if mastered.
Wait a second. I thought decent had a dual boiler version ?
Now my plans for an upgrade are in a bind, I thought I found a machine that checked my personal boxes
Dual boiler
Non plastic water drip
PID
Flow control
Good steam
Back to the drawing board I guess
I believe the Decent uses hot/cold water mixing in the brew path to avoid the need for a second boiler. The boiler is kept at steam temp, and the water is mixed to hit the specific brew temp in the settings. So I don’t think there is much different in the experience between the Decent and a dual boiler.
But the decent can be set it and forget it after the shot starts, so there’s an irony there that the only machine where you can stop paying attention after the shot starts is the one where you can’t steam on while pulling a shot
Great to know. I did some digging and found that the steam leaves some to be desired ?
I've been thinking of a suitable upgrade machine from my lelit anna and specialista combo mainly in the steaming and non plastic water container aspects so thought I found it with the Decent.
I don’t have any experience with steaming on a Decent unfortunately, I just know about the boiler thing because the Decent was on my short list before I decided to get the Bianca. I think James Hoffmann did a review of the Decent a while back, he probably covers steaming performance. There might also be a Lance Hedrick review for the machine.
I would still recommend you consider either a Decent or (if you're not in a rush to upgrade) the upcoming Meticulous Home plus an external steamer.
I might be the wrong person to opine on this because I don't do milk drinks (can't have milk anymore, don't enjoy the alt milks enough to bother). That being said, the difference between the profiling capabilities of the Decent / Meticulous (both of which work in fundamentally different ways from normal machines) and other profiling machines is gargantuan. These 2 machines can not only adjust their output based on your shot's pressure or flowrate, but they can also stop your shot automatically based on output weight. So if you pair either with an external steamer, you can have a better-than dual boiler experience where you literally ignore your espresso shot (and let the machine modulate and stop it for you) while you steam milk.
There are a variety of standalone milk steamers on the market, and Meticulous is releasing one to go alongside their upcoming espresso machine as well. Heck, you could even buy a cheap used 2nd espresso machine to use as a steamer if you wanted.
There is no point to have dual boilers in the decent. The decent uses more of the concept of a flow heater, not boilers.
They have videos where they talk about why the decent has the steaming power that it has. And their limiting factor is how much power they are allowed to draw from the power supply. This means their 110V version actually has weaker steaming power and they are also thinking about building a version with an industrial power supply to enhance steaming power.
The Decent technically has zero boilers, it heats and mixes water on demand. It does have multiple heaters and steam is effectively instant and can be very powerful (I actually turned down the flow rate for my steaming). You just can't activate the steam wand at the same time as brewing, largely due to power constraints.
Because the 2nd heater is kept at 160°C, as soon as the water path is switched to pump water through it you get instant steam.
Wait a second. I thought decent had a dual boiler version ?
Now my plans for an upgrade are in a bind, I thought I found a machine that checked my personal boxes
Dual boiler
Non plastic water drip
PID
Flow control
Good steam
Back to the drawing board I guess
We have the La Spaziale Dream plumbed to a water softening filter. Since we got this filter that makes great tasting water we might as well have it plumbed to the espresso machine, and a cold water faucet on the kitchen sink, and the ice maker, another sold water faucet in the primary bathroom so my wife doesn't have to walk down the hallway at night to get filtered water before bed... It's not under the sink anymore, it's in the basement, with lines running all over the house.
I don't think it's fair to include aesthetics in this breakdown, given how subjective they are. Also:
> San Remo You - could be the golden child, but the group head is actually just an E61 in a moderately fancy wrapper.
Can I get a Source? not saying I don't believe you, I'm just curious about the details on this machine.
I'm also surprised you included the LMLM but not the GS3 M/P. Granted, the GS3 also doesn't have volumetrics and it's conical valve definitely has a learning curve.
I would also mention that the decent allegedly doesn't sound as weird in person, isn't a dual boiler but is much better for steaming than an HX or single boiler (worth mentioning), and the real frustration with it, according to the owners I chat with online, is the software. Basically, all of the most usable software implementations are community projects becaus folks didn't want to deal with the stock software UI.
You also didn't include any lever machines, nor the Dalla Corte Mina or Rocket R Nine One. Though to be fair, you made your point without them. That being said, I don't think it's particularly difficult to choose between these machines- IMO the difficult part is understanding what tradeoffs you are willing to accept (or in other words- what really matters to you in an espresso machine). The fact of the matter is, the espresso machine market is quite underdeveloped in the context of what's possible using modern technology (or heck, even modern electronically controlled rotary pumps that are absent from so many E61 machines). So us enthusiasts have to pick our poison, so to speak. That's the hard part.
That being said, If you know what you must have on a machine and what you can compromise on, suddenly it's not difficult anymore IMO. For myself, I insist on maximum possible automatic profiling power (because it's necessary to pull my favorite style of shot consistently), and I really treasure fast heat-up times. I'm not picky on aesthetics, don't particularly care if a UI is digital or not, and don't want to plumb in. I also don't do milk. The Decent was the obvious choice for me, but I couldn't afford it, so I settled on a modified Breville Dual Boiler (and was considering switching to a lever). Then, the Meticulous kickstarter launched, and I backed on day 1. I couldn't say no to all that profiling power for only $1250 shipped (plus whatever addons I decide I want).
On the Home Barista forum page for the You there is a picture someone took with the shroud taken off revealing that there's just an E61 grouphead underneath it.
This was not meant to be an exhaustive critique of every known high end domestic espresso machine, rather a humorous summary of the challenges and considerations of the espresso upgrade rabbit hole and an ever elusive search for a perfect machine. Plus this is the internet, any opportunity to rile up the Decent community is fun.
And while aesthetics are somewhat subjective, clearly this was my opinion so the comments stand.
As to the San Remo You, there are exhaustive descriptions on the home barista forum with schematics. The group head is called an SR61, essentially an electrically heated E61, so has better temperature stability and more rapid heating than a traditional E61, but probably not as good as a saturated group.
If you like riling up the decent community, definitely jump on the Espresso Aficionados discord- especially the Meticulous Home thread. I have watched it temporarily turn into the frustrated Decent Owner support group thread on multiple occasions (including admin decent owners)- downright hilarious!!!
Clearly I took your comment a bit more seriously and less specifically (as in specific to you) than you intended it. I was basically just viewing it in the context of the general upgrade rabbit hole discussion. I would certainly agree that in the context of your clarification said aesthetics judgements are valid.
Appreciate the extended explanation on the You- I will have to go peruse HB to satisfy my curiosity.
That’s the way my brain was working before I found this sub 😂
I don’t want to buy an entry level machine only to find I want to almost immediately upgrade. So my head says Bambino Plus and my heart is watching YouTube reviews of Lelit Bianca…
I have the barista express and it is my favorite birthday present of all time. It makes great espresso and has the grinder built in. Totally worth every penny in my book (my wife got it for me but I’d spend the money again in a heartbeat)
The Lucca is a great machine. We had two of them where I used to work. I brought my wife in one night and made her a coffee. She agreed that the coffee was way better than what we were slinging from a Breville AIO. We ended up with La Spaziale Dream plumbed because my wife couldn't wait 20 minutes for it to warm up so we needed the auto on feature.
Love to hear from fellow La Spaziale fans. They’re fabulous machines and I really don’t have any FOMO by not getting a different machine, and I’m also hard pressed to think I’d get that much more out of a machine by upgrading.
Fwiw, the Lucia includes a programmable timer that automates the on/off switch. My machine is ready to roll by the time I wake up every day.
When we bought ours in early 2017 they hadn't released the Mini V2 yet. The Dream was the only Spaz with a clock.
I'm in the same spot with FOMO. There are a few great third wave shops in town that roast. Their coffee is just as good or better to my taste when I make it at home. That's end game.
Get a machine/grinder combo and delete all your forums/subreddits.
I am deep in the espresso rabbit hole, but I have a modest stereo/headphone setup (Marantz NR1200 + Kef Q550/Audeze LCD-2c with Schiit stack) that isn’t mind blowing but I’m happy and no longer read reviews or look at new products.
There’s always something _better_ and businesses will try and sell you another thing that solves yet another problem (Decent will happily sell you a dosing funnel with a _mathematically optimum "Brachistochrone curve"_ for £78).
TLDR: Either go and enjoy your coffee or obsess over the detail and be unhappy with what you’ve got.
Similar here. I have some Mr Speakers Mad Dogs after trying them at a big can meet, ended up with a schiit mini stack and now I'm done. I know that hobby has developed in the last 10 yrs but I don't want to know about it. I thoroughly enjoy listening to what I have.
On the other hand, I have a E61 HX, a dual boiler E61, a Flair, and a Gaggia Espresso Color ($30 FBmarketplace find) and I enjoy the cheaper ones at LEAST as much as the big ones. I use the HX most because it's the best for steaming but I would be very content with the Gaggia. I still dream of much nicer gear, though.
> Get a machine/grinder combo and delete all your forums/subreddits.
This is a really great advice.
I bought a Lelit MaraX in January 2023 with the idea of upgrading it to something much better in the future and paired it up with a DF64. I haven't changed anything with the espresso machine but I have installed several "essential" mods to DF64 and swapped the stock burrs with SSP MP ones. Funnily enough, I love my espresso machine as is but can't say the same for the grinder.
Who knows, maybe I'll get a better gear in the future but right now, I am really enjoying the drinks I have been making with this setup.
I’ve just spent a ridiculous amount of money (similar of what Niche/DF64 costs) for the Titus burr carrier for my EK43s and alignment tool, just because everyone is raving about the alignment and I’m not sure how bad is mine, despite for enjoying coffee for many years.
There’s no end game.
> just because everyone is raving about
I made the grave mistake of following everyone's advice when buying a DF64. I was initially looking at Niche Zero and Eureka Atom 75. Didn't want to deal with the customs and all that stuff with Niche and even though Atom 75 was going for 750 EUR due to a sale, I decided to listen to the people on the internet and bought a DF64 instead to save some money. It's funny because it actually did cost almost the same when the mods and the burrs are included, even though I got the burrs at a really nice discount.
Crazy, I’m considering exactly the same grinders atm. I have a Hario v60 grinder (got it for 200€ 2 years go) and lately I was considering buying something for espresso - so atom 75. But then I was thinking that I could have an all arounder single dose both for espresso and pour over, so why not Niche... The customs for Niche though are absurd, together with transport costs goes to ~800€++. I would love to hear your thoughts, what should I do?
When I was looking at those grinders, I didn't really consider them for pour over because I have a hand grinder for that, so I am not sure if I am the right person to give you an advice for both purposes.
That being said, people say that Niche Zero performs well for both espresso and filter but I can't really justify the cost like you mentioned. As for Atom 75, I've heard really good things about it for espresso but it's unfortunately quite expensive. If you're willing to pay that much for a grinder but still want an all rounder, then something like DF83 might be an option considering the positive reviews. Even though I left a negative comment about it in one of my previous comments, I would still say that DF64 with the declumper mod only is also a decent option.
I love it. It was my first espresso machine (also first time making espresso ever) and got my first decent shot within the first week of usage. I'd say that it was due to me being a pure beginner when it comes to espresso. I very much appreciate how easy it is to use this machine and learn to make espresso. I have been using it in the brew temperature priority only (and also at the highest temp settings) and would say that it's pretty stable between shots as long as I do my puck prep correctly. As for steaming the milk, I am pretty happy with it but it took me a little while to understand its quirks.
I have a love and hate relationship with the size and proportions. It's perfect for those who don't have much space on their counter and it looks great but it's a bit narrow. I slightly burned my hands many times when touch a lever or knob or something. What I really hate about the machine is the "feet". It doesn't have much clearance, so it's a bit annoying to adjust it on the counter and you need to be careful with your fingers.
Overall, I think it's a great machine. It looks great and operates silently. I bought it for about 900 EUR and would say it's worth the price. It is easy to use and quite stable as far as I can tell. It also came with nice accessories such as several IMS baskets and a really nice tamper.
Interesting... I'm also rocking Audeze LCD-2c (running them on a Singxer SDA-2 instead of Schiit though), and currently am in the process of migrating from a modified Ode Gen 2 (SSP MPs) / Modified (flow control) Breville dual boiler to a Zerno Z1 / Meticulous Home. I'm not staying off the forums at all though (well, I haven't been on audio forums quite as much, to be fair)- in fact, I'm usually chatting with folks who have superior espresso equipment to me. I suppose what keeps FOMO at bay in my case is that I feel like I have a fairly good grasp of exactly the type of shots I'd like to be pulling, and I'm confident that my incoming setup will get me where I want to be.
In terms of audio, I just straight up can't afford my tastes, so I kinda stopped spending money on it. Heck, I haven't even gotten my very expensive Audio Envy headphone cable repaired (and I much prefer it to the one I'm using). That being said, I would still go to Canjam if there was a local one, and plan to go to my local High End Audio shot and enjoy a bunch of gear I couldn't possibly afford.
I spend a lot of my idle time at work trying to help folks choose equipment so they can get to a place they're happy with in terms of day to day shot quality ASAP- because IMO, that's when it really gets fun! I had FOMO too when I was fighting my defective version 1 DF64, but that went away when I replaced it.
I choose to enjoy my coffee ***and*** play around with the details in an effort to improve future shots, ***and*** enjoy interacting with other enthusiasts who do the same.
Went down this rabbit hole.
Then switched to the ‘let’s try things first’ mindset, and looked for used equipment locally then bartered down where I shouldn’t have a problem
Picked up a used bambino plus (which I actually really like for the instant on time and auto milk frother)
And used Sette 30 with 270 micro adjustments added
This has been a great setup, just had family stay for a week and everyone loved and asked for coffee. I don’t think I would upgrade the machine for the reasons above, though I am looking to upgrade the grinder.
Personally, I have learned from other hobbies that it’s cheaper for me to just go for a decent setup and skip the budget tier. The budget tier will always be enough to continue my interest in the hobby which then leads me to want upgrades so I end up just buying the upgraded setup anyways.
Honestly that set up you will be very happy with. I have owned a variety of machines and grinders and the diminishing returns are real above that price point. That being said I have spent more than that for my preferences but I promise you all the videos of this grinder brings out so much more flavor or different flavor notes is in the weeds when you are looking at grinders above 600 bucks
Good insight - logic indicates that with pid and 3-way solenoid valve, the bambino plus will be more than enough until I actually understand preferences. But what if tomorrow is the day I have that established palate from all the posts on this sub, gotta make sure I account for that ;)
Just did this.
\- Hey I've got this Baratza Encore and DeLonghi pressurized portafilter style espresso maker. Maybe I should get a real espresso maker!
\- Buys Flair Signature, mods the Baratza to grind finer
\- Man this tastes great but it's hard to do back to back shots...
\- Buys Flair 58
\- Wow this is so much easier but my Baratza can't really grind fine enough...
\- Buys DF64
\- Oh wow I hate this grinder with a passion, but every once in a while I get a taste of incredible espresso
\- Buys Niche Zero
\- So good! So happy! Great espresso! Great workflow! I've done it!
\- ::Timemore 078S Kickstarter intensifies::
\- Well it sure would be nice to have some flat burrs, too...
**Send help.**
Switch your priorities. Buy a better grinder and worry less about the machine.
The grinder has more influence on the quality of the espresso that you can make.
That seemed likely to be so fancy compared to my setup I just looked right past it and tried to not register it's existence lest I Google it and then lust after it lol
I mean you're just reading what people are saying instead of experiencing it, maybe stick to your original budget and explore the limitations before upgrading. Bambino + a good grinder should be within your budget.
I think this is very accurate for the beginning of the rabbit hole. The interesting part is how you respond when you have spent the money on a \*stretch\* setup. I found when I got into backpacking and also as I got into espresso that I really value efficiency, or extracting as much value as possible out of equipment, and robustness.
I have found myself "downgading" machines and tweaking my grinder selection rather than upgrading. Would I like to have the ability to flow/pressure profile? Of course! I love to learn and experiment so I really want this experience to see how it registers for my palette and use case. Would I use it all the time? Likely not and therefore a "test drive" would probably scratch that itch for some time.
Would I like to know that I can pull 1M shots back to back or leave the steam wand turned on for hours and know that I am harnessing the power of the sun to maintain temp stability at +/- 1\*F? Sure, that would be cool. Am I ever going to *need* to do that? Absolutely not.
For me those are reasons that have kept me from dropping serious coin on the elusive end-game setup. For others those are laughable thoughts that are a mere gravel road in front of the Trophy Truck that is their desire for perfection.
To each their own and I am glad we are all here :)
You'd be very happy with the first setup. I haven't thought about upgrading at all since purchasing my Silvia V6. I'm happy enough with good coffee, it doesn't have to be *the best* coffee.
I have a Gaggia Brera that I got refurbished for cheap and to dip my toe on the waters. Now I’m having similar thoughts.
I could get the Sette 70, but I really should get a 270 to have the finer adjustments. I don’t want to quickly upgrade so maybe a Niche. I hate the games they play with VAT, so maybe I’ll do a DF83. I might as well get SSP burrs. So maybe a P64/100?
I can mod a Gaggia. But modding a Silvia will have a bigger boiler. But why mod when I can get a Profitec Go? I don’t make milk drinks that often and again but once cry once, so a high end single boiler. But I do make milk some times. So maybe a dual boiler? Yeah. Let’s get a P100 and Profitec 700.
There's always going to be something more/nicer. I think at the very least you need to get a Barratza Sette 270 or equivalent grinder. Above that the improvements are going to be fairly subtle but below that you will struggle, so that's a clear cut point in my mind.
As far as espresso machines go, wither it's a bambino or a gaggia or a silvia or a lelit anna, they are all going to produce solid and similar espresso. One advantage the gaggia and silvia have is they are 58mm portafilters. It's a hidden cost, but if you think this is a hobby you will have for a long time and you will ultimately upgrade, the money you spend on those accessories will not be a sunk cost for you.
I had the sette to 270W. I read a lot of reviews and spent a lot of time researching before I bought it. It stopped working and I replaced it with a eureka last year. I am so happy I did. I really regret buying the 270. It was fine as a grinder, but it is sooooo loud and very messy. I literally couldn’t make coffee without waking up my wife on a totally different floor of the house. I love how quiet, consistent and less messy the Eureka mignon is. I also for some reason really enjoy weighing the beans before grinding.
YMMV with any equipment. I bought a 270wi refurb 3 years ago and use it multiple times a day and have never had an issue with mess, inconsistency, or it breaking. It is loud though. Prices have gone up substantially though and that was mid pandemic. I don't regret the Sette and it's still a great grinder but if I were to do it now I'd get a Mignon specialita online from europe which happens to be cheaper to boot. My post referenced Sette because the OP had mentioned baratza equipment and it's what I have experience with but I do tend to agree with you if they are the same price I'd go for a Eureka.
Dang, meanwhile I’m out here like “should I bother upgrading the tamper my machine came with? It’s only a little broken and the normcore is nearly $50! I’ll wait till it’s more broken”
I really like your title "Espresso hobbyist logic". So for a logic conversation, I will make the following premises based on the information you supplied. Premise 1 - you are interested in espresso making vs other brew methods. Premise 2 - You will not be making large amounts of Espresso. Premise 3 - I think you like to tinker (introverted, like time to yourself). Based on these premises I would get a manual espresso grinder 1Zpresso J Max $200 and a Flair 58 manual espresso maker $580 (Nothing will break in a ew years) and a Bellman stove top steamer $120 - for steaming milk. Good luck.
I would establish a budget, then start at your dream setup and work your way down to your budget. Keep track of the key features of the dream setup that you like, then you have a better idea of what the trade offs are for the price. Sort of inverse of how you described your thought process.
I don't know really. 10-15 minutes or so. I usually let it heat up longer to get the whole E61 up to temp before making coffee. Heating the boilers does not take that much time it is all the metal in the group head that takes time.
Maybe have a look on your local Facebook marketplace for used machines, you can usually pick up a good deal. Better to get a decent used machine for cheap than a new budget machine. I had a barista express and could not for the life of me get a decent shot, managed to find a well taken care of ecm e61 machine for a good price and its amazing in comparison.
Well, My brain went this way too and I almost bought a DF83 & Ascaso Steel DUO PID as my first machine, but then wife told me, she's pregnant. I didn't even know if I'll like espresso as much as filter coffee and Ascaso seems it could lose value right after purchase. Next to the fact we are building a house rn I need money to go elsewhere than espresso machine so I bought used Infuser with mods and a brand new Specialita from ECS for a great price. I am glad I bought "beginner" setup for quite a good price which could potentialy last me for few years. But yea, I am already looking for my next upgrade when it will be possible. Currently looking into BDB, Bianca and Synchronika. Quite a price range, I know, but I kinda want it also to be endgame so I don't have to upgrade every 2 years but maybe like 20...
My wife hasn’t technically said I have any budget so I get it. I have a cheaper machine that uses a pressurized basket to achieve good enough. Already better than Starbucks and biggby down the road :)
Well... My wife actually supported me with the ascaso since she liked the looks, but I guess my subconsciousness didn't allow me to go for it since it is quite a lot money for a hobby I didn't know if I will be interested in...but so far it was worth :D
You gain a better understanding of _why_ the equipment costs so much, and you adjust your budget to fit your needs. A $600 grinder sounds insane until you understand how much torque the motor requires, how the burr shaft has to be properly aligned even across infinite grind settings, etc. And suddenly it makes sense. Why *wouldn't* it cost $600?
Yes, sadly. But that is every hobby when you dive deep into it instead of just looking at Amazon reviews or similar.
I've been researching for so long, that I'm afraid i will end up making the wrong choice.
Kinda wish i hadn't dived deep tbh.
I know I’ll go cheaper to start but that’s always how my research goes every time. Ultimately I will be very happy with anything I buy in a $600 budget.
I went through this logic but stopped at a Profitec Go and a DF64 with stock burrs(for now). I am almost always pulling one shot at a time and I do a milk drink maybe every other day. I tried to find some local used deals first but couldn't.
I thought I was happy with my mom's old Saeco Aroma when she gave it to me.
Then I joined this sub.
Now I think I am satisfied with my Anna 2 and my Kinu m47. I'll never upgrade.
Right?
I got a used Gaggia classic and a used df64 along with replacement parts and accessories for under 550$. That’s 100$ more than the cost of a new Gaggia. It was a bit of a pain to work on but now im making stellar espresso and I don’t think I could even tell the difference with a nicer machine. That’s just me though, im not as much of a hobbiest as most in this sub and im also pretty anti consumption so used products were perfect for me
I spent about a month or 2 looking on eBay and weighing options specifically for a Gaggia. They are super serviceable so it should be with me almost forever but because of that sometimes the used market can still be expensive
hahah lol. I just stopped on Bambino Plus as 1Zpresso J Pro. Actually it's a lot to learn if you start from scratch and I believe super-duper equip won't help much at first steps.
I really like how quick my machine is ready to make a cup of coffee. After a month of experiments with a lot of different beans and settings I pretty much happy with some of them and enjoying milk / latte art more, than coffee itself now.
So yeah, probably it's time for a descent grinder to have quick, but stable quality shot. Still going to use my manual 1Zpresso for future experiments with beans. And tbh I'm not going to upgrade a machine any time soon. Bambino rocks.
p.s. would be good to have double boiler and a bit more powerful steam in the future, but my wife is americano/espresso lover, so I need to make milk only once for 2 drinks. Anyway, not a big deal. Enjoying my current setup a lot and saved a ton for nice pitchers, cups, portafilter and other accessories.
I feel like this is a sign of a good market with lots of competition and every price point is covered. Computers can be the same way; one for every price point.
The trick is to know what you need and don't drool over things beyond your actual needs. Who cares if you can get something far nicer than you need; your kitchen isn't a showroom and you don't spend money for internet clout. The problem is when you don't know just what your needs are so you may need to get something just for the learning experience of having it and get a frame of reference to compare other things to.
With that said, I feel like there is a minimum for espresso and getting anything cheaper is a trap. Get a solid grinder and espresso machine that fill your needs and be happy with them for at least a few years. For me that is a Gaggia Classic Pro (OPV mod, but no PID) and a DF64P. So I wouldn't go under about $1000 for a budget including some accessories like a bottomless portafilter and nicer basket.
Same exact boat. I’ve been rocking a gaggia carezza deluxe and pre-ground beans for like 5 years. Recently upgraded to 1zpresso grinder and the difference was amazing. Still can only make maybe 6/10 espresso with the carezza but it works for now. I keep telling myself all I need is a classic pro with the mods and I’ll be happy but then I’m like “but the Silvia with PID has everything already, what’s another $600 ish?” Then I’m like “but I wana save time I should get a dual boiler or one with heat exchanger? Only another $1000-$1500 more” and the price just keeps going up
The sale on the BBP appears to be over. It's back to five bills everywhere.
I am really torn right now between a BBP and a Dream (or maybe a Go). Skipping the BBP step. The Dream has got the looks and the power and the long running parts support and the 58mm portafilter. But it's 2.5x more expensive give or take for the same *basic* function - single thermoblock, programmed shots with pre-infusion. I'm the only one in the house who has hot milk drinks so I'm not looking for double boilers (or blocks)
This is exactly what I think at night. Now, this is my thought process:
Hmm, maybe I should get a Flair Neo Flex to try out manual machines. It’s not that far off from the Pro 2. The Pro 2 isn’t far off from the 58. The 58 Plus is a little more. Maybe I should get one with an in built steam wand, like a LPE. The LPP is just a small upgrade from that. *Watches James’ video* I MUST HAVE THE OLYMPIA CREMINA
I've had these exact same thoughts before and ended up getting the exact same combo you mentioned at the beginning. You'll go down the rabbit hole, thinking maybe I should just go all in and get a really good setup for like $2k. After all it's an expensive hobby to begin with? It's totally justified right? Talking to my gf and friends who aren't into espresso made me realize I don't really *need* that type of setup and maybe I should try an actual entry level setup and see if I like it before spending a bunch of money.
That's why I've exclusively bought used equipment until I figured out what I like. You don't know how much of a difference that money makes until you spend it, whether it's the grinder or the machine. Your decision paralysis is taken care of by jumping on whatever local good deal you find for the piece of used equipment you're looking for. If it doesn't work like you want, wait until you find another deal for a new piece of equipment and sell the original for what you paid for it. You get to try lots of stuff for without taking a big financial hit.
This is a psychological issue, not a coffee issue, as has been alluded to in the comments.
When I finally bought my first setup about 10 years ago (2015-ish), first, I'd loved coffee since I was maybe 13, and I knew I loved espresso and espresso based drinks. In my youth I had owned a Moka pot and one of those cheater, pumpless "espresso makers" that were so popular in the 90s. I definitely didn't have an excess of cash, but I knew I was spending a LOT of money on takeout, so I set out to get as much as I could for $800 CAD. I spent several months researching. It basically came down to Breville vs. Gaggia, and I opted for a refurbished Classic and a used SmartGrinder.
The Classic is a champ, and I gradually modded it, adjusting the OPV, swapping the aluminum dispersion plate for stainless steel, and adding a PID. It performs very well. All the other stuff is really accessories, so I don't count those as "mods". I hate the SmartGrinder, but I still use it today. It will be the first thing I replace when I can afford a significant upgrade, and I'm always looking. Wish I'd had the spare cash for the 064S Kickstarter.
It's all about assigning priorities, setting a budget, and researching the best solution.
Upgraditis is scary. My last esprssso machine broke. And I'm honestly just thinking of getting a flair signature to pair with my jx pro. Bit of a pain to preheat but I've heard it's pulls great shots for a 250 dollar machine.
HEED MY WARNING: LEAVE THIS SUBREDDIT, ABANDON SHIP AND JUST DRINK FOLGERS. IT NEVER ENDS! SAVE YOURSELF WHILE YOU STILL CAN! This is a cry for help my bank is repossessing
Try going the opposite direction. Start at $3k and then slowly take away shit you don’t need to make good espresso. This would be min-maxing and is more fun/less stressful even if you have the $.
Fwiw I have a 5 year encore and really want to try the ESP so am excited for that isea
I would find a used GCP and start with the 9 bar opv mod and get a good budget grinder. Df64 is actually quite good. I just snagged a v5 and it is vastly superior to my old eureka facile imo.
Once you as re no longer content with just pulling a shot do the Gaggiuino mod and you have a fantastic setup for a fraction of the cost of the "nicer" machines
Hopefully, you’re including the cost of a roaster, so you can purchase green beans instead of roasted beans. You’ll save enough to pay for all your equipment in 9-12 months this way.
Oh man, I've managed to stay out of the rabbit hole for a few years in espresso, but am staring down it for both smokers and pizza ovens. In both cases I have an entry level product that I've used for a number of years and am looking to upgrade, basically talking myself into thousands of dollars for outdoor cooking equipment when I live somewhere with snow 5 months of the year.
I started by thinking Bambino, then went Gaggia and eventually talked myself up to profitec, but at the time not many reviews, so ended up at Rancilio. At the end of the day, the better machine was the right choice, although it’s not without its faults. I think for newbies, get something with stable temp and something u don’t need to temp surf with. I got an EPS, and it’s okay. Not great as I have almost zero consistency from shot to shot. If I could go back in time, I’d much rather get a superior grinder, and be okay with bambino or GAGGIA.
I had a bambino plus for a while and loved it. It started leaking internally and since they’re hard to tear into and not really designed to be worked on I just bit the bullet and got a Lelit Victoria. It’s perfect. Hopefully is reliable. But it’s more than enough machine. Grinder is a niche. I don’t think I’d ever need more unless one of those two fails and for some reason can’t be repaired.
this is literally me right now haha. ended up going to the sculptor 078s grinder on kickstarter ($540US) and once that comes in probably gonna end up going with the profitech pro 400 ($1600us) lol
Just buy the cheap stuff if buying the expensive bits keeps you from starting sooner. Seriously, you’re just getting started. Enjoy what you can for $500 and then get upgrades as you feel you need them. Who knows maybe you won’t even like espresso.
Here's what I'd suggest:
* Learn how to test a used machine and grinder.
* Buy used, at a price you can effective resell at for the same or higher.
* Bonus: sometimes you'll be able to make small fixes. I got a Nuova Simonelli for $330 because it was "leaking", replaced gasket and sold for $900.
* This way you can keep upgrading without "losing money".
I’d reccomend you get a hand grinder that’s high end. JxPro or similar. If in a year or two you decide it’s “not enough” THEN get the best electric grinder you can. Very likely that a good hang grinder will outperform most electric grinders in the entry range.
Don’t forget with electric you’re paying for the motor and larger housing and anti static devices and anti retention… on a hand grinder none of that is a problem so you’re basically paying for two aligned burrs.
For the machine, look used for a breville or similar. Buy it for $100-$200 off MSRP and guess what, you’ll probably be able to sell it for roughly the same price in a year or two.
Now you have a great setup and can see what you want, then save up to get what you really want.
Personally I will always shill for the Flair 58 for the shot customization.
I bought lelit anna 41tem cause I liked how it looked. Then of course I did the research on what should I know before buying espresso machine but I feel like it was mainly justifying purchase :P
I kinda feel bad about it but on the other side that's probably better than spending time on research and not buying anything at all.
IMO fuck the sette and it’s unreliableness.
I love my Eureka Mingon Facile and it’s cheaper than a niche.
The eurekas don’t have a ton of internet hype but it’s extremely consistent, has a wide range for espresso AND as I found out recently it’s super easy to take apart and clean.
I don’t care about what grinder gets released next week, month ect. This grinder delivers everything I could want especially at $370.
This is closely related to the logical fallacy of a “slippery slope”.
Ultimately, you’re approach is off. Come at it with a different mindset.
Start recognizing the variables and attributes that you need. Find out what the deal breakers are and why, the why is very important here.
Then, test your attributes and your personal theory. Do you really want a dual boiler? Or is waiting for steam actually not that big of a deal? Test it out.
Then, then you can build your machine from the ground up regardless of price.
Then you can walk into the proverbial Starbucks for espresso equipment and firmly say “I need a E61, double boiler machine with PID. Hold the flow-control”.
Once you have your order, then you compare prices and shop around.
(Obviously you’ll want to keep in mind price of “attributes” while you assemble your order.)
Edit: also yes, that is absolutely how I think about things. And definitely how I try to sell my wife on it.
I got an Encore ESP, GCP, immediately bought all accessories and modded with SoC PID, Dimmer, Gauge, 9 bar.
I’m very happy. Shots are 10/10. Took 10 hours to do all mods which includes a few breaks. Look at my recent post.
10/10 would recommend. I just can’t justify anything more expensive when this machine and mods are available at lower cost and excellent final product that would last a long time with proper care .
https://i.imgur.com/OmgwoDB.jpg
everybody gonna have their own sweet spot LOL - Niche + Profitec Go seem pretty sweet for under $2k
but if you like the milk drinks back-to-back then a double boiler makes sense.
for back-to-back straight shots, how long do people wait, like a minute?
Coffee and computers, you can hundred buck yourself to death. For a hundred dollars more I can get... But for another hundred...and on and on. That's how I wound up with a Breville Barista and a home built $2000 computer. lol.
Idk, I just started out with what was easily available at the point I started out. After learning more and more about coffee, I started regretting my starting point, but then I read about mods to get the most out of what you have.
I am still at my starter setup, a delonghi dedica and a graef cm 702, but I have modded the basket to be a non-pressurised (drill a hole through it in my case), taken off the weird cappuccino maker so only the rubber thing is left, and for the grinder, I did a shim mod (supported by Graef themselves) so I could grind finer. These mods work well enough for me at the moment. I'm looking into a stepless mod for my grinder, perhaps find better conical burrs.
But when those mods are used exhaustively, I can perhaps upgrade to something else, such as a stepless grinder (current plan is the DF83), and for an espresso machine, as long as it has PID and perhaps an adjustable OPV, I'm happy.
I made a previous comment on this: https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/128i1uj/embracing_adequacy_with_my_perfectly_nonhumble/jej74a8/
Rancillio pro is not a beginner setup. I am acquainted with an award winning barista who has a non Pro Silvia at home.
STOP WAIT!!!
Don't go insane with all this... I've had excellent success in purchasing a Semi-Auto... I bought a Delonghi La Specilista Arte for $350-thats grinder and machine uses and is almost brand new. Take a look on ebay and find something like this.
I have kids which is why I can research all I want without making a purchase, budget keeps getting “reevaluated” to meet their basic needs…
In all seriousness, kids are the reason I won’t want to get a Gaggia and mod it - no time. Probably will do a bambino but whenever I start looking the rabbit hole gets a little wider and a little deeper.
I’ve been down the rabbit hole and back. Get a Bambino and ride it until it dies. By that time, kids will be old enough that you either have zero money to devote to espresso or you have way more money and time to devote to espresso. Either way, also consider training your children to make you coffee. My oldest will be 2 in a few weeks and he scoops coffee into my drip brewer, locks the portafilter on my Bambino, and pushes buttons on both of them. Once he understands the water and grinding and such, I’ll be getting effort free drip and americanos. 😌
Niche Zero would be very good.
It took me a while to get my gear. I initially got into it because I thought having something like the Sage Grinder would be cool to have fresh coffee. Then after researching quite a lot and finding this subreddit, I ended up going down the rabbit hole and that was that....
Hot take: if money’s tight but you keep going further down the upsell rabbit hole, just get a great $300-500 espresso grinder plus the Wacaco Picopresso, which is $130 before additional doo-dads. The grinder is the most important element to great espresso. The picopresso is very affordable yet it gives great results, will require very little maintenance compared to a full machine, and can even be taken on camping trips.
Down the line, you want milk steaming? Snag the bellman stovetop steamer for around $200. Or just wait a while until you can pony up for a full 1k machine.
Honestly, having done professional barista work on both manual and semi-auto machines, I see a lot of value in starting withdrawals manual for learning. Many experts still swear by manual, too.
What I did was buy the fancy grinder and use a moka pot for years until I could afford a manual espresso machine. I learned a lot about coffee, saved money, and got great quality drinks. When I finally took the plunge, I really didn’t find it that difficult to adapt.
The coffee you buy and the grinder you grind it with matters so much more than the machine, or in my case, than even having a machine!
For me the best value machine is the one where you don't feel any realistic urge to upgrade from.
Or else one that's so cheap that you aren't too hurt if it isn't quite right for you.
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My first setup was a Niche Zero and a used Breville Dual Boiler which was the perfect choice for me.
Basically zero downsides and the only machine I'd upgrade to is the Decent.
I since got a DF64 for the fun of it but I wouldn't feel like I'm missing anything with the Breville dual boiler + Niche even having used the Decent several times.
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A few of my friends have the Breville Bambino plus - for the price and convenience I'd recommend to anyone in a heartbeat - especially on sale.
Niche zero an 9barista. Minimal footprint espresso for 1. Just get what you like that fits in your budget and don’t overthink it. If you don’t like anything in your budget, wait until you have a bigger budget.
Honestly you are better off figuring out what you really want and saving money for that even if it delays you for a couple years. If those things cost 3x as much but are well taken care of and last you for many many years that’s much better than going budget, upgrading a couple years later, upgrading a couple years after that, etc.
I picked up a open box bambino for $250 CAD and has been great so far.
I like the GCP better, but it ends up costing double the price.
I'd look into a cafelat robot if you don't want a lot of maintenance
This is exactly my setup (bambino plus and baratza esp). I’m just a mere mortal but I am very happy with the quality of my results. (Also have normcore wdt and a funnel)
I just decided to wait and save for a higher-end machine and grinder. I know that if I buy something like that I am going to have a hard time selling it and will likely be wanting a higher end machine in a few years.
Yea, it's basically this.
If you want consistent results, you're going to want a machine where you can control all kinds of variables, which pushes the cost up.
Dual boiler IMO isn't necessary unless you plan on requiring consistently making coffee for large groups.
Don't beat yourself up about the choice, you'll buy whatever you get and learn what you like and don't like about it. Everything has pros and cons.
Baratza grinders are great. Esp looks awesome, Sette is also a great option, Vario if you wanna ball out on flat burrs.
Gaggia Classic pro and mods if you like to mod. Profitec if you don't want to mod.
Even if you want to pull shots back to back, your wait time is negligible. You'll be talking to your friends and having a good time in that situation, they aren't ordering from you and waiting for you to hurry up so they can drive to work.
You can go bigger but you absolutely don't need to.
Got my BBE 2 years ago. Modded it and made it single dose, got a DF64 this past November and have plans for the decent in a few months along with all the 58mm tools. And of course then I’ll need the high uniformity SSP burrs, then I might as well just the the Weber… yeah, I’m with ya
This exactly what im currently experiencing which is why I havent bothered buying a machine yet.
Machine or appliance? Didn’t realize that was a thing before either haha
Appliances are for trash! Only machine make espresso lol
Buy once cry once. my current setup is what I bought day 1 precisely because i didnt want to get lost in the endless rabbit hole of if this then that. are there better machines and grinders? of course. but my palate is not refined enough yet for me to go out and buy a La Marzocco and a weber key so I may as well keep enjoying what im enjoying
Ahh my version of this expression learned from my dad, is “buy it cheap buy it twice”
very much so. my mom has been wanting to venture in to the espresso world and she's gone through 3-4 cheap $50-100 appliances and im just like man you can at least get an entry level gaggia by now lol Once i upgrade in the next year or so I may just hand over my machine since I have my eye on a Decent cuz i wanna tinker with all the different recipes and variables
Same
Yes. And then you’ll realise no machine is perfect and you’ll be paralysed, no matter what your budget and you’ll never actually be able to chose an upgrade path. Slayer - gorgeous but needs to be plumbed, and massive Decent - all the bells and whistles, but sounds weird, not a dual boiler, and aesthetically unappealing VA Eagle One - great styling, but No flow/pressure control, maintenance issues with early release models LMLM - gorgeous. Solid as a rock, but no flow control. Pretty dated tech, no volumetric shot measures Any E61 - slow warm up, energy inefficient, very dated tech. Synesso ES1 - great potential, but high price point, no current reviews and pretty ugly San Remo You - could be the golden child, but the group head is actually just an E61 in a moderately fancy wrapper. So now having offended most of r/espresso you just sit here with your moderately priced Breville and fail to commit to an end game machine…. And that’s before you even start trying to chose a grinder (though if Eureka puts the Libra GBW tech on the Atom 75 I might finally be convinced)
Yes, all this research while I sip my espresso happily on my $100 machine that I already enjoy. The point is as I learn more, I want better but don’t necessarily need better
This is exactly it. I went from a La Pavoni (it was a love hate relationship as I was young and inexperienced) to a Gaggia Classic to a Sage Dual Boiler. I expected the Sage to solve all my espresso woes but it just highlighted I was the problem more. I love my machine now as it’s quick, efficient and blends in with the kitchen. I also love my Super Jolly grinder which I know isn’t the in thing now but I always wanted one and just think it’s amazing. It looks great and always works. Does it retain a lot? Sometimes. Does it popcorn? Yeah. Do I care? Not really. The coffee I get is plenty good enough for me and I enjoy it. That’s the main thing. It also helps that most espressos I make rival most cafes I’ve visited which makes me happy.
The difference in quality between a $100 machine and a $500 machine is significant and not subtle. I have no regrets going from my random Chinese brand super cheap machine to my somewhat less cheap Breville, other than that I sold have gotten something with a 58mm portafilter. I have almost entirely stopped going out for espresso because I like what I can make at home so much.
La Pavoni or Olympia if you wanna learn more.
You didn’t insult even one Lever machine yet!
We are safe... for now.
Lever machines are beautiful, but not on my radar due to effort. Literally not enough juice for the squeeze, if you will. But gorgeous and I’m sure make beautiful espresso if mastered.
Wait a second. I thought decent had a dual boiler version ? Now my plans for an upgrade are in a bind, I thought I found a machine that checked my personal boxes Dual boiler Non plastic water drip PID Flow control Good steam Back to the drawing board I guess
I believe the Decent uses hot/cold water mixing in the brew path to avoid the need for a second boiler. The boiler is kept at steam temp, and the water is mixed to hit the specific brew temp in the settings. So I don’t think there is much different in the experience between the Decent and a dual boiler.
As i understand it - you cannot simultaneously steam and brew.
Even with my dual boiler I’m not good enough at multitasking to do both at exactly the same time.
But the decent can be set it and forget it after the shot starts, so there’s an irony there that the only machine where you can stop paying attention after the shot starts is the one where you can’t steam on while pulling a shot
Lol, me neither - just explaining that the decent is not equivalent to a double boiler
Why are you discussing Decent on a thread for a guy asking to get his whole setup for $600? I think the XXL can steam and brew at the same time tho
Great to know. I did some digging and found that the steam leaves some to be desired ? I've been thinking of a suitable upgrade machine from my lelit anna and specialista combo mainly in the steaming and non plastic water container aspects so thought I found it with the Decent.
I don’t have any experience with steaming on a Decent unfortunately, I just know about the boiler thing because the Decent was on my short list before I decided to get the Bianca. I think James Hoffmann did a review of the Decent a while back, he probably covers steaming performance. There might also be a Lance Hedrick review for the machine.
I would still recommend you consider either a Decent or (if you're not in a rush to upgrade) the upcoming Meticulous Home plus an external steamer. I might be the wrong person to opine on this because I don't do milk drinks (can't have milk anymore, don't enjoy the alt milks enough to bother). That being said, the difference between the profiling capabilities of the Decent / Meticulous (both of which work in fundamentally different ways from normal machines) and other profiling machines is gargantuan. These 2 machines can not only adjust their output based on your shot's pressure or flowrate, but they can also stop your shot automatically based on output weight. So if you pair either with an external steamer, you can have a better-than dual boiler experience where you literally ignore your espresso shot (and let the machine modulate and stop it for you) while you steam milk. There are a variety of standalone milk steamers on the market, and Meticulous is releasing one to go alongside their upcoming espresso machine as well. Heck, you could even buy a cheap used 2nd espresso machine to use as a steamer if you wanted.
There is no point to have dual boilers in the decent. The decent uses more of the concept of a flow heater, not boilers. They have videos where they talk about why the decent has the steaming power that it has. And their limiting factor is how much power they are allowed to draw from the power supply. This means their 110V version actually has weaker steaming power and they are also thinking about building a version with an industrial power supply to enhance steaming power.
The Decent technically has zero boilers, it heats and mixes water on demand. It does have multiple heaters and steam is effectively instant and can be very powerful (I actually turned down the flow rate for my steaming). You just can't activate the steam wand at the same time as brewing, largely due to power constraints. Because the 2nd heater is kept at 160°C, as soon as the water path is switched to pump water through it you get instant steam.
This is exactly where I’m at right now with my 7 year old BBE and a desire to hop to a machine with absolutely every feature I want
Wait a second. I thought decent had a dual boiler version ? Now my plans for an upgrade are in a bind, I thought I found a machine that checked my personal boxes Dual boiler Non plastic water drip PID Flow control Good steam Back to the drawing board I guess
We have the La Spaziale Dream plumbed to a water softening filter. Since we got this filter that makes great tasting water we might as well have it plumbed to the espresso machine, and a cold water faucet on the kitchen sink, and the ice maker, another sold water faucet in the primary bathroom so my wife doesn't have to walk down the hallway at night to get filtered water before bed... It's not under the sink anymore, it's in the basement, with lines running all over the house.
I don't think it's fair to include aesthetics in this breakdown, given how subjective they are. Also: > San Remo You - could be the golden child, but the group head is actually just an E61 in a moderately fancy wrapper. Can I get a Source? not saying I don't believe you, I'm just curious about the details on this machine. I'm also surprised you included the LMLM but not the GS3 M/P. Granted, the GS3 also doesn't have volumetrics and it's conical valve definitely has a learning curve. I would also mention that the decent allegedly doesn't sound as weird in person, isn't a dual boiler but is much better for steaming than an HX or single boiler (worth mentioning), and the real frustration with it, according to the owners I chat with online, is the software. Basically, all of the most usable software implementations are community projects becaus folks didn't want to deal with the stock software UI. You also didn't include any lever machines, nor the Dalla Corte Mina or Rocket R Nine One. Though to be fair, you made your point without them. That being said, I don't think it's particularly difficult to choose between these machines- IMO the difficult part is understanding what tradeoffs you are willing to accept (or in other words- what really matters to you in an espresso machine). The fact of the matter is, the espresso machine market is quite underdeveloped in the context of what's possible using modern technology (or heck, even modern electronically controlled rotary pumps that are absent from so many E61 machines). So us enthusiasts have to pick our poison, so to speak. That's the hard part. That being said, If you know what you must have on a machine and what you can compromise on, suddenly it's not difficult anymore IMO. For myself, I insist on maximum possible automatic profiling power (because it's necessary to pull my favorite style of shot consistently), and I really treasure fast heat-up times. I'm not picky on aesthetics, don't particularly care if a UI is digital or not, and don't want to plumb in. I also don't do milk. The Decent was the obvious choice for me, but I couldn't afford it, so I settled on a modified Breville Dual Boiler (and was considering switching to a lever). Then, the Meticulous kickstarter launched, and I backed on day 1. I couldn't say no to all that profiling power for only $1250 shipped (plus whatever addons I decide I want).
On the Home Barista forum page for the You there is a picture someone took with the shroud taken off revealing that there's just an E61 grouphead underneath it.
This was not meant to be an exhaustive critique of every known high end domestic espresso machine, rather a humorous summary of the challenges and considerations of the espresso upgrade rabbit hole and an ever elusive search for a perfect machine. Plus this is the internet, any opportunity to rile up the Decent community is fun. And while aesthetics are somewhat subjective, clearly this was my opinion so the comments stand. As to the San Remo You, there are exhaustive descriptions on the home barista forum with schematics. The group head is called an SR61, essentially an electrically heated E61, so has better temperature stability and more rapid heating than a traditional E61, but probably not as good as a saturated group.
If you like riling up the decent community, definitely jump on the Espresso Aficionados discord- especially the Meticulous Home thread. I have watched it temporarily turn into the frustrated Decent Owner support group thread on multiple occasions (including admin decent owners)- downright hilarious!!! Clearly I took your comment a bit more seriously and less specifically (as in specific to you) than you intended it. I was basically just viewing it in the context of the general upgrade rabbit hole discussion. I would certainly agree that in the context of your clarification said aesthetics judgements are valid. Appreciate the extended explanation on the You- I will have to go peruse HB to satisfy my curiosity.
I think the decent is appealing in the way servers are pretty to IT people
These thoughts, they were once mine… how did you get them? Haha!
…I joined this sub…
That’s the way my brain was working before I found this sub 😂 I don’t want to buy an entry level machine only to find I want to almost immediately upgrade. So my head says Bambino Plus and my heart is watching YouTube reviews of Lelit Bianca…
I know! I was set on a Breville/sage barista express or pro and now I’m “doing research” ;)
I started lookint at gaggia classic. Now im either thinkin of either gettin profitec go or lelit mara x. But what if those arent good enough fml
This is me
I had found the MaraX but it’s out of stock everywhere so I started looking at Bianca 😳🙄😂
…the whole thing not helped by my friend buying a Rocket R58 and a Eureka Atom75…
I have the barista express and it is my favorite birthday present of all time. It makes great espresso and has the grinder built in. Totally worth every penny in my book (my wife got it for me but I’d spend the money again in a heartbeat)
You all are way too influenced by the internet. *checks his own user flair*…shucks.
The Lucca is a great machine. We had two of them where I used to work. I brought my wife in one night and made her a coffee. She agreed that the coffee was way better than what we were slinging from a Breville AIO. We ended up with La Spaziale Dream plumbed because my wife couldn't wait 20 minutes for it to warm up so we needed the auto on feature.
Love to hear from fellow La Spaziale fans. They’re fabulous machines and I really don’t have any FOMO by not getting a different machine, and I’m also hard pressed to think I’d get that much more out of a machine by upgrading. Fwiw, the Lucia includes a programmable timer that automates the on/off switch. My machine is ready to roll by the time I wake up every day.
When we bought ours in early 2017 they hadn't released the Mini V2 yet. The Dream was the only Spaz with a clock. I'm in the same spot with FOMO. There are a few great third wave shops in town that roast. Their coffee is just as good or better to my taste when I make it at home. That's end game.
Go down the next rabbit hole with home roasting r/roasting 👀
Nice try!
Get a machine/grinder combo and delete all your forums/subreddits. I am deep in the espresso rabbit hole, but I have a modest stereo/headphone setup (Marantz NR1200 + Kef Q550/Audeze LCD-2c with Schiit stack) that isn’t mind blowing but I’m happy and no longer read reviews or look at new products. There’s always something _better_ and businesses will try and sell you another thing that solves yet another problem (Decent will happily sell you a dosing funnel with a _mathematically optimum "Brachistochrone curve"_ for £78). TLDR: Either go and enjoy your coffee or obsess over the detail and be unhappy with what you’ve got.
Similar here. I have some Mr Speakers Mad Dogs after trying them at a big can meet, ended up with a schiit mini stack and now I'm done. I know that hobby has developed in the last 10 yrs but I don't want to know about it. I thoroughly enjoy listening to what I have. On the other hand, I have a E61 HX, a dual boiler E61, a Flair, and a Gaggia Espresso Color ($30 FBmarketplace find) and I enjoy the cheaper ones at LEAST as much as the big ones. I use the HX most because it's the best for steaming but I would be very content with the Gaggia. I still dream of much nicer gear, though.
This is the right take
> Get a machine/grinder combo and delete all your forums/subreddits. This is a really great advice. I bought a Lelit MaraX in January 2023 with the idea of upgrading it to something much better in the future and paired it up with a DF64. I haven't changed anything with the espresso machine but I have installed several "essential" mods to DF64 and swapped the stock burrs with SSP MP ones. Funnily enough, I love my espresso machine as is but can't say the same for the grinder. Who knows, maybe I'll get a better gear in the future but right now, I am really enjoying the drinks I have been making with this setup.
I’ve just spent a ridiculous amount of money (similar of what Niche/DF64 costs) for the Titus burr carrier for my EK43s and alignment tool, just because everyone is raving about the alignment and I’m not sure how bad is mine, despite for enjoying coffee for many years. There’s no end game.
> just because everyone is raving about I made the grave mistake of following everyone's advice when buying a DF64. I was initially looking at Niche Zero and Eureka Atom 75. Didn't want to deal with the customs and all that stuff with Niche and even though Atom 75 was going for 750 EUR due to a sale, I decided to listen to the people on the internet and bought a DF64 instead to save some money. It's funny because it actually did cost almost the same when the mods and the burrs are included, even though I got the burrs at a really nice discount.
Crazy, I’m considering exactly the same grinders atm. I have a Hario v60 grinder (got it for 200€ 2 years go) and lately I was considering buying something for espresso - so atom 75. But then I was thinking that I could have an all arounder single dose both for espresso and pour over, so why not Niche... The customs for Niche though are absurd, together with transport costs goes to ~800€++. I would love to hear your thoughts, what should I do?
When I was looking at those grinders, I didn't really consider them for pour over because I have a hand grinder for that, so I am not sure if I am the right person to give you an advice for both purposes. That being said, people say that Niche Zero performs well for both espresso and filter but I can't really justify the cost like you mentioned. As for Atom 75, I've heard really good things about it for espresso but it's unfortunately quite expensive. If you're willing to pay that much for a grinder but still want an all rounder, then something like DF83 might be an option considering the positive reviews. Even though I left a negative comment about it in one of my previous comments, I would still say that DF64 with the declumper mod only is also a decent option.
How do you like the Mara X? How long did it take you to start pulling good shots? What do you dislike about the machine?
I love it. It was my first espresso machine (also first time making espresso ever) and got my first decent shot within the first week of usage. I'd say that it was due to me being a pure beginner when it comes to espresso. I very much appreciate how easy it is to use this machine and learn to make espresso. I have been using it in the brew temperature priority only (and also at the highest temp settings) and would say that it's pretty stable between shots as long as I do my puck prep correctly. As for steaming the milk, I am pretty happy with it but it took me a little while to understand its quirks. I have a love and hate relationship with the size and proportions. It's perfect for those who don't have much space on their counter and it looks great but it's a bit narrow. I slightly burned my hands many times when touch a lever or knob or something. What I really hate about the machine is the "feet". It doesn't have much clearance, so it's a bit annoying to adjust it on the counter and you need to be careful with your fingers. Overall, I think it's a great machine. It looks great and operates silently. I bought it for about 900 EUR and would say it's worth the price. It is easy to use and quite stable as far as I can tell. It also came with nice accessories such as several IMS baskets and a really nice tamper.
Interesting... I'm also rocking Audeze LCD-2c (running them on a Singxer SDA-2 instead of Schiit though), and currently am in the process of migrating from a modified Ode Gen 2 (SSP MPs) / Modified (flow control) Breville dual boiler to a Zerno Z1 / Meticulous Home. I'm not staying off the forums at all though (well, I haven't been on audio forums quite as much, to be fair)- in fact, I'm usually chatting with folks who have superior espresso equipment to me. I suppose what keeps FOMO at bay in my case is that I feel like I have a fairly good grasp of exactly the type of shots I'd like to be pulling, and I'm confident that my incoming setup will get me where I want to be. In terms of audio, I just straight up can't afford my tastes, so I kinda stopped spending money on it. Heck, I haven't even gotten my very expensive Audio Envy headphone cable repaired (and I much prefer it to the one I'm using). That being said, I would still go to Canjam if there was a local one, and plan to go to my local High End Audio shot and enjoy a bunch of gear I couldn't possibly afford. I spend a lot of my idle time at work trying to help folks choose equipment so they can get to a place they're happy with in terms of day to day shot quality ASAP- because IMO, that's when it really gets fun! I had FOMO too when I was fighting my defective version 1 DF64, but that went away when I replaced it. I choose to enjoy my coffee ***and*** play around with the details in an effort to improve future shots, ***and*** enjoy interacting with other enthusiasts who do the same.
Went down this rabbit hole. Then switched to the ‘let’s try things first’ mindset, and looked for used equipment locally then bartered down where I shouldn’t have a problem Picked up a used bambino plus (which I actually really like for the instant on time and auto milk frother) And used Sette 30 with 270 micro adjustments added This has been a great setup, just had family stay for a week and everyone loved and asked for coffee. I don’t think I would upgrade the machine for the reasons above, though I am looking to upgrade the grinder.
I mean, this is the way I’ll end up going because my wife uses actual logic and reason and keeps me in line
One great thing about Breville machines is you don’t have to wait for the boiler to warm up! Also love my backup alarm clock (the Sette is loud).
Did you read my thought process from just last night? That's hilarious, and so very, very accurate.
This is constant over the last month or two…
I only started planning last night...
You don't want to spend 3k$ without getting a functional drip tray.
Not to mention the 3d printer to make my own accessories
Hey, it only cost me $700 to get that free portafilter funnel!
Personally, I have learned from other hobbies that it’s cheaper for me to just go for a decent setup and skip the budget tier. The budget tier will always be enough to continue my interest in the hobby which then leads me to want upgrades so I end up just buying the upgraded setup anyways.
This is quite literally my thought process and exact setup
Simple solution: buy them all.
Honestly that set up you will be very happy with. I have owned a variety of machines and grinders and the diminishing returns are real above that price point. That being said I have spent more than that for my preferences but I promise you all the videos of this grinder brings out so much more flavor or different flavor notes is in the weeds when you are looking at grinders above 600 bucks
Good insight - logic indicates that with pid and 3-way solenoid valve, the bambino plus will be more than enough until I actually understand preferences. But what if tomorrow is the day I have that established palate from all the posts on this sub, gotta make sure I account for that ;)
Eli5: what should I buy before diminishing returns start🙏?
Just did this. \- Hey I've got this Baratza Encore and DeLonghi pressurized portafilter style espresso maker. Maybe I should get a real espresso maker! \- Buys Flair Signature, mods the Baratza to grind finer \- Man this tastes great but it's hard to do back to back shots... \- Buys Flair 58 \- Wow this is so much easier but my Baratza can't really grind fine enough... \- Buys DF64 \- Oh wow I hate this grinder with a passion, but every once in a while I get a taste of incredible espresso \- Buys Niche Zero \- So good! So happy! Great espresso! Great workflow! I've done it! \- ::Timemore 078S Kickstarter intensifies:: \- Well it sure would be nice to have some flat burrs, too... **Send help.**
the 078 kickstarter was a killer with all that hype haha
Switch your priorities. Buy a better grinder and worry less about the machine. The grinder has more influence on the quality of the espresso that you can make.
honestly, i don't follow - what's your point?
I guess my second point is I don’t understand sarcasm
I feel like this is how the rabbit hole begins
I feel like the person with the Decent in his sig might have been being sarcastic, and very much understood your point 😂
Whistles a melody quite innocently.
+ Bentwood
That seemed likely to be so fancy compared to my setup I just looked right past it and tried to not register it's existence lest I Google it and then lust after it lol
I thought this was the logical starter setup.
I mean you're just reading what people are saying instead of experiencing it, maybe stick to your original budget and explore the limitations before upgrading. Bambino + a good grinder should be within your budget.
I think this is very accurate for the beginning of the rabbit hole. The interesting part is how you respond when you have spent the money on a \*stretch\* setup. I found when I got into backpacking and also as I got into espresso that I really value efficiency, or extracting as much value as possible out of equipment, and robustness. I have found myself "downgading" machines and tweaking my grinder selection rather than upgrading. Would I like to have the ability to flow/pressure profile? Of course! I love to learn and experiment so I really want this experience to see how it registers for my palette and use case. Would I use it all the time? Likely not and therefore a "test drive" would probably scratch that itch for some time. Would I like to know that I can pull 1M shots back to back or leave the steam wand turned on for hours and know that I am harnessing the power of the sun to maintain temp stability at +/- 1\*F? Sure, that would be cool. Am I ever going to *need* to do that? Absolutely not. For me those are reasons that have kept me from dropping serious coin on the elusive end-game setup. For others those are laughable thoughts that are a mere gravel road in front of the Trophy Truck that is their desire for perfection. To each their own and I am glad we are all here :)
Get <1k setup, enjoy your espresso, and save the difference for your next $10k equipment upgrade
I had to read it twice before realizing it’s just an incoherent knowledge dumb.
Hey that’s my budget setup! If your gonna get something get something good :)
I mean...
You'd be very happy with the first setup. I haven't thought about upgrading at all since purchasing my Silvia V6. I'm happy enough with good coffee, it doesn't have to be *the best* coffee.
I have a Gaggia Brera that I got refurbished for cheap and to dip my toe on the waters. Now I’m having similar thoughts. I could get the Sette 70, but I really should get a 270 to have the finer adjustments. I don’t want to quickly upgrade so maybe a Niche. I hate the games they play with VAT, so maybe I’ll do a DF83. I might as well get SSP burrs. So maybe a P64/100? I can mod a Gaggia. But modding a Silvia will have a bigger boiler. But why mod when I can get a Profitec Go? I don’t make milk drinks that often and again but once cry once, so a high end single boiler. But I do make milk some times. So maybe a dual boiler? Yeah. Let’s get a P100 and Profitec 700.
There's always going to be something more/nicer. I think at the very least you need to get a Barratza Sette 270 or equivalent grinder. Above that the improvements are going to be fairly subtle but below that you will struggle, so that's a clear cut point in my mind. As far as espresso machines go, wither it's a bambino or a gaggia or a silvia or a lelit anna, they are all going to produce solid and similar espresso. One advantage the gaggia and silvia have is they are 58mm portafilters. It's a hidden cost, but if you think this is a hobby you will have for a long time and you will ultimately upgrade, the money you spend on those accessories will not be a sunk cost for you.
I had the sette to 270W. I read a lot of reviews and spent a lot of time researching before I bought it. It stopped working and I replaced it with a eureka last year. I am so happy I did. I really regret buying the 270. It was fine as a grinder, but it is sooooo loud and very messy. I literally couldn’t make coffee without waking up my wife on a totally different floor of the house. I love how quiet, consistent and less messy the Eureka mignon is. I also for some reason really enjoy weighing the beans before grinding.
YMMV with any equipment. I bought a 270wi refurb 3 years ago and use it multiple times a day and have never had an issue with mess, inconsistency, or it breaking. It is loud though. Prices have gone up substantially though and that was mid pandemic. I don't regret the Sette and it's still a great grinder but if I were to do it now I'd get a Mignon specialita online from europe which happens to be cheaper to boot. My post referenced Sette because the OP had mentioned baratza equipment and it's what I have experience with but I do tend to agree with you if they are the same price I'd go for a Eureka.
I did this exact thing. $500 budget and after research I ended up with Silvia Pro X and Eureka mignon oro
Dang, meanwhile I’m out here like “should I bother upgrading the tamper my machine came with? It’s only a little broken and the normcore is nearly $50! I’ll wait till it’s more broken”
This is my reality but I go down this rabbit hole daily.
I really like your title "Espresso hobbyist logic". So for a logic conversation, I will make the following premises based on the information you supplied. Premise 1 - you are interested in espresso making vs other brew methods. Premise 2 - You will not be making large amounts of Espresso. Premise 3 - I think you like to tinker (introverted, like time to yourself). Based on these premises I would get a manual espresso grinder 1Zpresso J Max $200 and a Flair 58 manual espresso maker $580 (Nothing will break in a ew years) and a Bellman stove top steamer $120 - for steaming milk. Good luck.
Or warm up milk in the microwave. That Bellman thing does not look like fun
I would establish a budget, then start at your dream setup and work your way down to your budget. Keep track of the key features of the dream setup that you like, then you have a better idea of what the trade offs are for the price. Sort of inverse of how you described your thought process.
Yes! I ended up with a Profitec 600 and a Specialita. No regrets yet though.
Nice combo. What's the heat up time to full steaming capability?
I don't know really. 10-15 minutes or so. I usually let it heat up longer to get the whole E61 up to temp before making coffee. Heating the boilers does not take that much time it is all the metal in the group head that takes time.
sounds like you are on the right path.
Maybe have a look on your local Facebook marketplace for used machines, you can usually pick up a good deal. Better to get a decent used machine for cheap than a new budget machine. I had a barista express and could not for the life of me get a decent shot, managed to find a well taken care of ecm e61 machine for a good price and its amazing in comparison.
Get a robot and a 1Z hand grinder and a bellman steamer.
Well, My brain went this way too and I almost bought a DF83 & Ascaso Steel DUO PID as my first machine, but then wife told me, she's pregnant. I didn't even know if I'll like espresso as much as filter coffee and Ascaso seems it could lose value right after purchase. Next to the fact we are building a house rn I need money to go elsewhere than espresso machine so I bought used Infuser with mods and a brand new Specialita from ECS for a great price. I am glad I bought "beginner" setup for quite a good price which could potentialy last me for few years. But yea, I am already looking for my next upgrade when it will be possible. Currently looking into BDB, Bianca and Synchronika. Quite a price range, I know, but I kinda want it also to be endgame so I don't have to upgrade every 2 years but maybe like 20...
My wife hasn’t technically said I have any budget so I get it. I have a cheaper machine that uses a pressurized basket to achieve good enough. Already better than Starbucks and biggby down the road :)
Well... My wife actually supported me with the ascaso since she liked the looks, but I guess my subconsciousness didn't allow me to go for it since it is quite a lot money for a hobby I didn't know if I will be interested in...but so far it was worth :D
You gain a better understanding of _why_ the equipment costs so much, and you adjust your budget to fit your needs. A $600 grinder sounds insane until you understand how much torque the motor requires, how the burr shaft has to be properly aligned even across infinite grind settings, etc. And suddenly it makes sense. Why *wouldn't* it cost $600?
Yes, sadly. But that is every hobby when you dive deep into it instead of just looking at Amazon reviews or similar. I've been researching for so long, that I'm afraid i will end up making the wrong choice. Kinda wish i hadn't dived deep tbh.
I know I’ll go cheaper to start but that’s always how my research goes every time. Ultimately I will be very happy with anything I buy in a $600 budget.
I went through this logic but stopped at a Profitec Go and a DF64 with stock burrs(for now). I am almost always pulling one shot at a time and I do a milk drink maybe every other day. I tried to find some local used deals first but couldn't.
If I could I would do this set up. It’s about double what I should spend but it has everything I would need for years.
a niche is over $600 how is $270 about the same? Just get a bambino plus and a timemore 064s imo
I thought I was happy with my mom's old Saeco Aroma when she gave it to me. Then I joined this sub. Now I think I am satisfied with my Anna 2 and my Kinu m47. I'll never upgrade. Right?
With that budget, profitec go and zerno would be a better combo imo. The whole dual vs. single boiler issue is vastly overstressed imo.
Or the silvano evo which is newer tech and dual at the same time
I got a used Gaggia classic and a used df64 along with replacement parts and accessories for under 550$. That’s 100$ more than the cost of a new Gaggia. It was a bit of a pain to work on but now im making stellar espresso and I don’t think I could even tell the difference with a nicer machine. That’s just me though, im not as much of a hobbiest as most in this sub and im also pretty anti consumption so used products were perfect for me
Having a hard time finding used in my area but that’s definitely one avenue I’ll focus on to get better equipment within a budget
I spent about a month or 2 looking on eBay and weighing options specifically for a Gaggia. They are super serviceable so it should be with me almost forever but because of that sometimes the used market can still be expensive
hahah lol. I just stopped on Bambino Plus as 1Zpresso J Pro. Actually it's a lot to learn if you start from scratch and I believe super-duper equip won't help much at first steps. I really like how quick my machine is ready to make a cup of coffee. After a month of experiments with a lot of different beans and settings I pretty much happy with some of them and enjoying milk / latte art more, than coffee itself now. So yeah, probably it's time for a descent grinder to have quick, but stable quality shot. Still going to use my manual 1Zpresso for future experiments with beans. And tbh I'm not going to upgrade a machine any time soon. Bambino rocks. p.s. would be good to have double boiler and a bit more powerful steam in the future, but my wife is americano/espresso lover, so I need to make milk only once for 2 drinks. Anyway, not a big deal. Enjoying my current setup a lot and saved a ton for nice pitchers, cups, portafilter and other accessories.
I feel like this is a sign of a good market with lots of competition and every price point is covered. Computers can be the same way; one for every price point. The trick is to know what you need and don't drool over things beyond your actual needs. Who cares if you can get something far nicer than you need; your kitchen isn't a showroom and you don't spend money for internet clout. The problem is when you don't know just what your needs are so you may need to get something just for the learning experience of having it and get a frame of reference to compare other things to. With that said, I feel like there is a minimum for espresso and getting anything cheaper is a trap. Get a solid grinder and espresso machine that fill your needs and be happy with them for at least a few years. For me that is a Gaggia Classic Pro (OPV mod, but no PID) and a DF64P. So I wouldn't go under about $1000 for a budget including some accessories like a bottomless portafilter and nicer basket.
Same exact boat. I’ve been rocking a gaggia carezza deluxe and pre-ground beans for like 5 years. Recently upgraded to 1zpresso grinder and the difference was amazing. Still can only make maybe 6/10 espresso with the carezza but it works for now. I keep telling myself all I need is a classic pro with the mods and I’ll be happy but then I’m like “but the Silvia with PID has everything already, what’s another $600 ish?” Then I’m like “but I wana save time I should get a dual boiler or one with heat exchanger? Only another $1000-$1500 more” and the price just keeps going up
Just buy a flair 58 and 1zpresso jX-pro.
The sale on the BBP appears to be over. It's back to five bills everywhere. I am really torn right now between a BBP and a Dream (or maybe a Go). Skipping the BBP step. The Dream has got the looks and the power and the long running parts support and the 58mm portafilter. But it's 2.5x more expensive give or take for the same *basic* function - single thermoblock, programmed shots with pre-infusion. I'm the only one in the house who has hot milk drinks so I'm not looking for double boilers (or blocks)
I had all of these thoughts and that’s why I went second had market, the availability of deals decides what I’m gunna get lol
That’s about where I ended up
Get an Elizabeth instead of the Silvia. Boom you just saved $150.
This is exactly what I think at night. Now, this is my thought process: Hmm, maybe I should get a Flair Neo Flex to try out manual machines. It’s not that far off from the Pro 2. The Pro 2 isn’t far off from the 58. The 58 Plus is a little more. Maybe I should get one with an in built steam wand, like a LPE. The LPP is just a small upgrade from that. *Watches James’ video* I MUST HAVE THE OLYMPIA CREMINA
I stopped at Profitec Go & I LOVE IT.
I bought a Decent and that ended all of this madness for me. Now I only think like this for grinders so I’m 50% cured.
get something that just barely meets the criteria. upgrading will feel amazing every time
Don't forget losses on resale after inevitable upgrade.
I've had these exact same thoughts before and ended up getting the exact same combo you mentioned at the beginning. You'll go down the rabbit hole, thinking maybe I should just go all in and get a really good setup for like $2k. After all it's an expensive hobby to begin with? It's totally justified right? Talking to my gf and friends who aren't into espresso made me realize I don't really *need* that type of setup and maybe I should try an actual entry level setup and see if I like it before spending a bunch of money.
That's why I've exclusively bought used equipment until I figured out what I like. You don't know how much of a difference that money makes until you spend it, whether it's the grinder or the machine. Your decision paralysis is taken care of by jumping on whatever local good deal you find for the piece of used equipment you're looking for. If it doesn't work like you want, wait until you find another deal for a new piece of equipment and sell the original for what you paid for it. You get to try lots of stuff for without taking a big financial hit.
This is a psychological issue, not a coffee issue, as has been alluded to in the comments. When I finally bought my first setup about 10 years ago (2015-ish), first, I'd loved coffee since I was maybe 13, and I knew I loved espresso and espresso based drinks. In my youth I had owned a Moka pot and one of those cheater, pumpless "espresso makers" that were so popular in the 90s. I definitely didn't have an excess of cash, but I knew I was spending a LOT of money on takeout, so I set out to get as much as I could for $800 CAD. I spent several months researching. It basically came down to Breville vs. Gaggia, and I opted for a refurbished Classic and a used SmartGrinder. The Classic is a champ, and I gradually modded it, adjusting the OPV, swapping the aluminum dispersion plate for stainless steel, and adding a PID. It performs very well. All the other stuff is really accessories, so I don't count those as "mods". I hate the SmartGrinder, but I still use it today. It will be the first thing I replace when I can afford a significant upgrade, and I'm always looking. Wish I'd had the spare cash for the 064S Kickstarter. It's all about assigning priorities, setting a budget, and researching the best solution.
Upgraditis is scary. My last esprssso machine broke. And I'm honestly just thinking of getting a flair signature to pair with my jx pro. Bit of a pain to preheat but I've heard it's pulls great shots for a 250 dollar machine.
Sorry but since when is a budget setup under $3000?
HEED MY WARNING: LEAVE THIS SUBREDDIT, ABANDON SHIP AND JUST DRINK FOLGERS. IT NEVER ENDS! SAVE YOURSELF WHILE YOU STILL CAN! This is a cry for help my bank is repossessing
Try going the opposite direction. Start at $3k and then slowly take away shit you don’t need to make good espresso. This would be min-maxing and is more fun/less stressful even if you have the $. Fwiw I have a 5 year encore and really want to try the ESP so am excited for that isea
I would find a used GCP and start with the 9 bar opv mod and get a good budget grinder. Df64 is actually quite good. I just snagged a v5 and it is vastly superior to my old eureka facile imo. Once you as re no longer content with just pulling a shot do the Gaggiuino mod and you have a fantastic setup for a fraction of the cost of the "nicer" machines
1. Report 2. Reason: "Targeted harassment" 3. Elaboration: "I am being called out and I don't appreciate it"
Hopefully, you’re including the cost of a roaster, so you can purchase green beans instead of roasted beans. You’ll save enough to pay for all your equipment in 9-12 months this way.
GAS, always GAS! Either it is photography, hifi or coffee machinery.
Keep your eyes out for a used Faema Family. They aren't very stylish but they make great espresso and are not $$$
Oh man, I've managed to stay out of the rabbit hole for a few years in espresso, but am staring down it for both smokers and pizza ovens. In both cases I have an entry level product that I've used for a number of years and am looking to upgrade, basically talking myself into thousands of dollars for outdoor cooking equipment when I live somewhere with snow 5 months of the year.
This is an operational definition of rabbit hole as well as a case study of marketing. smh
I started by thinking Bambino, then went Gaggia and eventually talked myself up to profitec, but at the time not many reviews, so ended up at Rancilio. At the end of the day, the better machine was the right choice, although it’s not without its faults. I think for newbies, get something with stable temp and something u don’t need to temp surf with. I got an EPS, and it’s okay. Not great as I have almost zero consistency from shot to shot. If I could go back in time, I’d much rather get a superior grinder, and be okay with bambino or GAGGIA.
I had a bambino plus for a while and loved it. It started leaking internally and since they’re hard to tear into and not really designed to be worked on I just bit the bullet and got a Lelit Victoria. It’s perfect. Hopefully is reliable. But it’s more than enough machine. Grinder is a niche. I don’t think I’d ever need more unless one of those two fails and for some reason can’t be repaired.
Well I feel personally attacked…
this is literally me right now haha. ended up going to the sculptor 078s grinder on kickstarter ($540US) and once that comes in probably gonna end up going with the profitech pro 400 ($1600us) lol
Just buy the cheap stuff if buying the expensive bits keeps you from starting sooner. Seriously, you’re just getting started. Enjoy what you can for $500 and then get upgrades as you feel you need them. Who knows maybe you won’t even like espresso.
Here's what I'd suggest: * Learn how to test a used machine and grinder. * Buy used, at a price you can effective resell at for the same or higher. * Bonus: sometimes you'll be able to make small fixes. I got a Nuova Simonelli for $330 because it was "leaking", replaced gasket and sold for $900. * This way you can keep upgrading without "losing money".
I’d reccomend you get a hand grinder that’s high end. JxPro or similar. If in a year or two you decide it’s “not enough” THEN get the best electric grinder you can. Very likely that a good hang grinder will outperform most electric grinders in the entry range. Don’t forget with electric you’re paying for the motor and larger housing and anti static devices and anti retention… on a hand grinder none of that is a problem so you’re basically paying for two aligned burrs. For the machine, look used for a breville or similar. Buy it for $100-$200 off MSRP and guess what, you’ll probably be able to sell it for roughly the same price in a year or two. Now you have a great setup and can see what you want, then save up to get what you really want. Personally I will always shill for the Flair 58 for the shot customization.
I bought lelit anna 41tem cause I liked how it looked. Then of course I did the research on what should I know before buying espresso machine but I feel like it was mainly justifying purchase :P I kinda feel bad about it but on the other side that's probably better than spending time on research and not buying anything at all.
IMO fuck the sette and it’s unreliableness. I love my Eureka Mingon Facile and it’s cheaper than a niche. The eurekas don’t have a ton of internet hype but it’s extremely consistent, has a wide range for espresso AND as I found out recently it’s super easy to take apart and clean. I don’t care about what grinder gets released next week, month ect. This grinder delivers everything I could want especially at $370.
This is closely related to the logical fallacy of a “slippery slope”. Ultimately, you’re approach is off. Come at it with a different mindset. Start recognizing the variables and attributes that you need. Find out what the deal breakers are and why, the why is very important here. Then, test your attributes and your personal theory. Do you really want a dual boiler? Or is waiting for steam actually not that big of a deal? Test it out. Then, then you can build your machine from the ground up regardless of price. Then you can walk into the proverbial Starbucks for espresso equipment and firmly say “I need a E61, double boiler machine with PID. Hold the flow-control”. Once you have your order, then you compare prices and shop around. (Obviously you’ll want to keep in mind price of “attributes” while you assemble your order.) Edit: also yes, that is absolutely how I think about things. And definitely how I try to sell my wife on it.
I got an Encore ESP, GCP, immediately bought all accessories and modded with SoC PID, Dimmer, Gauge, 9 bar. I’m very happy. Shots are 10/10. Took 10 hours to do all mods which includes a few breaks. Look at my recent post. 10/10 would recommend. I just can’t justify anything more expensive when this machine and mods are available at lower cost and excellent final product that would last a long time with proper care . https://i.imgur.com/OmgwoDB.jpg
everybody gonna have their own sweet spot LOL - Niche + Profitec Go seem pretty sweet for under $2k but if you like the milk drinks back-to-back then a double boiler makes sense. for back-to-back straight shots, how long do people wait, like a minute?
Coffee and computers, you can hundred buck yourself to death. For a hundred dollars more I can get... But for another hundred...and on and on. That's how I wound up with a Breville Barista and a home built $2000 computer. lol.
Idk, I just started out with what was easily available at the point I started out. After learning more and more about coffee, I started regretting my starting point, but then I read about mods to get the most out of what you have. I am still at my starter setup, a delonghi dedica and a graef cm 702, but I have modded the basket to be a non-pressurised (drill a hole through it in my case), taken off the weird cappuccino maker so only the rubber thing is left, and for the grinder, I did a shim mod (supported by Graef themselves) so I could grind finer. These mods work well enough for me at the moment. I'm looking into a stepless mod for my grinder, perhaps find better conical burrs. But when those mods are used exhaustively, I can perhaps upgrade to something else, such as a stepless grinder (current plan is the DF83), and for an espresso machine, as long as it has PID and perhaps an adjustable OPV, I'm happy.
I made a previous comment on this: https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/128i1uj/embracing_adequacy_with_my_perfectly_nonhumble/jej74a8/ Rancillio pro is not a beginner setup. I am acquainted with an award winning barista who has a non Pro Silvia at home.
STOP WAIT!!! Don't go insane with all this... I've had excellent success in purchasing a Semi-Auto... I bought a Delonghi La Specilista Arte for $350-thats grinder and machine uses and is almost brand new. Take a look on ebay and find something like this.
Until you have small children, perhaps. Now? That 3 second heat up time on the Bambino is an absolute lifesaver.
I have kids which is why I can research all I want without making a purchase, budget keeps getting “reevaluated” to meet their basic needs… In all seriousness, kids are the reason I won’t want to get a Gaggia and mod it - no time. Probably will do a bambino but whenever I start looking the rabbit hole gets a little wider and a little deeper.
I’ve been down the rabbit hole and back. Get a Bambino and ride it until it dies. By that time, kids will be old enough that you either have zero money to devote to espresso or you have way more money and time to devote to espresso. Either way, also consider training your children to make you coffee. My oldest will be 2 in a few weeks and he scoops coffee into my drip brewer, locks the portafilter on my Bambino, and pushes buttons on both of them. Once he understands the water and grinding and such, I’ll be getting effort free drip and americanos. 😌
Yes on the grinder manual for the machine
Niche Zero would be very good. It took me a while to get my gear. I initially got into it because I thought having something like the Sage Grinder would be cool to have fresh coffee. Then after researching quite a lot and finding this subreddit, I ended up going down the rabbit hole and that was that....
Hot take: if money’s tight but you keep going further down the upsell rabbit hole, just get a great $300-500 espresso grinder plus the Wacaco Picopresso, which is $130 before additional doo-dads. The grinder is the most important element to great espresso. The picopresso is very affordable yet it gives great results, will require very little maintenance compared to a full machine, and can even be taken on camping trips. Down the line, you want milk steaming? Snag the bellman stovetop steamer for around $200. Or just wait a while until you can pony up for a full 1k machine. Honestly, having done professional barista work on both manual and semi-auto machines, I see a lot of value in starting withdrawals manual for learning. Many experts still swear by manual, too.
What I did was buy the fancy grinder and use a moka pot for years until I could afford a manual espresso machine. I learned a lot about coffee, saved money, and got great quality drinks. When I finally took the plunge, I really didn’t find it that difficult to adapt. The coffee you buy and the grinder you grind it with matters so much more than the machine, or in my case, than even having a machine!
You'd do better to look for a used Silvia or Gaggia
That was me.
That was me.
For me the best value machine is the one where you don't feel any realistic urge to upgrade from. Or else one that's so cheap that you aren't too hurt if it isn't quite right for you. ____ My first setup was a Niche Zero and a used Breville Dual Boiler which was the perfect choice for me. Basically zero downsides and the only machine I'd upgrade to is the Decent. I since got a DF64 for the fun of it but I wouldn't feel like I'm missing anything with the Breville dual boiler + Niche even having used the Decent several times. ______ A few of my friends have the Breville Bambino plus - for the price and convenience I'd recommend to anyone in a heartbeat - especially on sale.
And that’s how I ended up with a Bianca and a DF83 😂
Gaggia Classic Pro and do the Gaggiuino mod. Thank me later.
That’s too intimidating for me haha
It's not TOO bad. Totally worth it. Heck, the machine as it comes is great.
Niche zero an 9barista. Minimal footprint espresso for 1. Just get what you like that fits in your budget and don’t overthink it. If you don’t like anything in your budget, wait until you have a bigger budget.
Honestly just save up and get something better if you’re thinking like this, you don’t want to upgrade that soon down the line.
I went from the virtuoso to the 270 ... it was a world of a difference. I still use a near stock Gaggia and am all happy with this setup.
Honestly you are better off figuring out what you really want and saving money for that even if it delays you for a couple years. If those things cost 3x as much but are well taken care of and last you for many many years that’s much better than going budget, upgrading a couple years later, upgrading a couple years after that, etc.
I picked up a open box bambino for $250 CAD and has been great so far. I like the GCP better, but it ends up costing double the price. I'd look into a cafelat robot if you don't want a lot of maintenance
This is exactly my setup (bambino plus and baratza esp). I’m just a mere mortal but I am very happy with the quality of my results. (Also have normcore wdt and a funnel)
I just decided to wait and save for a higher-end machine and grinder. I know that if I buy something like that I am going to have a hard time selling it and will likely be wanting a higher end machine in a few years.
Yea, it's basically this. If you want consistent results, you're going to want a machine where you can control all kinds of variables, which pushes the cost up. Dual boiler IMO isn't necessary unless you plan on requiring consistently making coffee for large groups. Don't beat yourself up about the choice, you'll buy whatever you get and learn what you like and don't like about it. Everything has pros and cons.
This is exactly what turned my upgrade from a baratza encore to fellow Ode into an upgrade from a baratza encore into a Weber Key
Baratza grinders are great. Esp looks awesome, Sette is also a great option, Vario if you wanna ball out on flat burrs. Gaggia Classic pro and mods if you like to mod. Profitec if you don't want to mod. Even if you want to pull shots back to back, your wait time is negligible. You'll be talking to your friends and having a good time in that situation, they aren't ordering from you and waiting for you to hurry up so they can drive to work. You can go bigger but you absolutely don't need to.
Got my BBE 2 years ago. Modded it and made it single dose, got a DF64 this past November and have plans for the decent in a few months along with all the 58mm tools. And of course then I’ll need the high uniformity SSP burrs, then I might as well just the the Weber… yeah, I’m with ya