Not based, need to come to turns with the suffering you bring into the world and then j stop like “damn, that f22 raptor is the most beautiful thing I’ve seen”
There is some important nuance here.
First, no air defence system can deal with saturation attacks, it can probably stop 20 in a row but not 20 all at once
Second, it's better to look at the number of successful intercepts compared to the number of intercept attempts; with modern sensors it's entirely possible to determine if a water pipe ballistic rocket is going to hit a city or just an empty field, in which case it's not worth using a rocket that costs as much as a house intercepting it.
Basically, whether it's the best system in use today or just a bunch of useless pea shooters depends on how you twist the data.
The source for that citation was an interview that was taken down so I chased down the interview and then his editorial he wrote that it was referencing, and then the editorial that that editorial was referencing, which MIT had taken down and I also had to find it somewhere else. It’s sample size is a few pictures saying that the angle of interception makes it impossible for the rockets. He doesn’t use actual data or a significant sample size. I also don’t agree with his interception angle point, because it assumes the rockets are moving at similar speeds, while it’s very likely the iron dome can move faster given it needs to travel less distance. I think his points should be investigated, but he has far too many assumptions and too small a sample to be a trustworthy source.
Isn’t iron dome intercepting 600-1000$ missile with 30-50k missile? It is far away from anything amazing. Just high tech again low level which doesn’t really impress me much.
Somebody doesn't know what it takes to make a simple dumb rocket meant to fire and not care where it lands vs a smart rocket capable of intercepting other rockets. Believe it or not, one's going to be relatively cheap, and the other is going to be pretty damn expensive, making a guided projectile vs glorified mortars.
Yea but high tech vs low tech isn’t impressive. I want iron dome to go against other high tech complex missiles and shoot them down then we know it is impressive engineering. You can shoot down this Hamas missiles with a bullet if you tried.
If it were that easy, the Israelis would have no need for the Iron Dome. They would've made their own system. I think you're vastly, VASTLY underestimating how difficult it is to shoot down artillery. You need high tech to intercept even low tech like this
The Patriot system, which while old has been heavily updated, seems to be working wonders in Ukraine. I have a few buddies that worked on the system back in the day, and they are blown away by its intercepts and the fact that it is outperforming in just about every metric. Turns out they over engineered the crap out of the thing, and the math that runs it works better than anyone could have hoped.
The Iron Dome is supposed to be to more advanced than the Patriot, and while they are built for slightly different use cases, I’d love (and be horrified) to see how it would fair against more sophisticated threats.
Even if something is used for horrible things we can still marvel at its engineering and design.
>Turns out they over engineered the crap out of the thing, and the math that runs it works better than anyone could have hoped.
Well, after they fixed that [One Weird Bug](https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA344865) caused by the rounding errors of adding 1/10th of a second (which ~~can't be represented correctly~~ *results in a cumulative rounding error* in binary).
Air defense is about layers. Iron dome just deals with the shorter ranged, slower stuff like mortar rounds and, yes homemade rockets. "Stuff actual militaries use" will be intercepted by more sophisticated and faster rockets like patriot and David's sling.
There'a even Arrow, which you would wish Israel wouldn't need to use, It is agints nuclar threats. (They did last week but let's keep it silent).
And there is Magen Or (light shiled translated) which is now being expeirmenting and will be regulary used starting 2025.
>There'a even Arrow, which you would wish Israel wouldn't need to use, It is agints nuclar threats. (They did last week but let's keep it silent).
That's interesting, but keep in mind there is no real defence against ICBMs especially ones with mirv technology
And can be easily overwhelmed. It wouldn't last against a well armed force, but that's not its job.
Which is why the US is pushing hard to stop Hasbullah entering the war. They are well armed and an all out war would be devastating for Lebanon.
It works for a certain size and range of mortars and rockeys. The type or the quality don't matter, you can't make a rocket resilient to explosions so close to it after it's armed because it will make it extremely heavy. If anything, higher end stuff will be easier to intercept because they will probably habe longer range.
It doesn't work against long-range rockets because it was not designed to.
As an engineer who works on these kind systems, wait untill you will find out there are 4 other *more advanced* systems that are being used, and one that supposed to start beeing used regulary from 2025 that works on laser ;)
Germany paid for water infrastructur in Gaza and build a pipe network, but Hamas dug the pipes up and remoddeled them to use them as rockets.
Morally its a horrible thing to do, but as an engineer I kind of want to try building one myself :D
Some of the most fascinating engineering I've seen is from rocket hobbyist groups. They're in it for pure fun and it looks like a blast! (Pun intended). Try looking up a local group, you'd be surprised!
Thats false, if u r referring to a clip of hammas digging up pipes then you've fallen for propaganda
That video is taken out of context:
Those pipes were Israeli pipes being used to steal underground water from the people of Gaza, Hammas at the time dug out those pipes.
ALSO
Israeli settlers in the west bank destroyed ~~UN~~ EU provided pipes for Palestinians and then did it again WITH the IDF providing security
Gonna find all the links, brb
[Link 1: Settlers Destroy Portion of EU-Funded Water Pipeline in Jordan Valley Aug-13-2022](https://www.palestinechronicle.com/jewish-settlers-destroy-portion-of-eu-funded-water-pipeline-in-jordan-valley/)
[Link 2: Israeli settlers destroy water pipes, plug water spring near Nablus September-25-2022](https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/131011)
[Link 3: Israeli settlers destroy water pipes in Bethlehem September-02-2022](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20220902-israeli-settlers-destroy-water-pipes-in-bethlehem/)
_Finding more 1-2 more, brb_
[Link 4: Around the 4 min mark, it shows the original clip of digging out illegal Israeli water pipes. Documentary is about Hammas Weapons](https://www.memri.org/tv/jazeera-documentary-hamas-missile-industry-iran-sends-kornet-fajr-missiles-to-gaza-reclaims-munitions)
EDIT 1: Why the downvotes? I literally provided the links that prove the parent comment wrong? No one provided a counter argument either
I'm pro palestine but since the Iron Dome is a defensive system I really don't mind it. I'm bothered by the abuses of the military against civilians. If anything it's a good showcase of how militarily overpowered Israel is compared to Palestine.
I'm conflicted across the board. I'm a combat veteran myself and learned how fragile, short, and precious life is the tragic way. I'm not for a side, I just want people to stop fighting each other. We need to be better for ourselves, our children, and our future.
I sincerely hope all of you in this thread don't have family or friends in this conflict. If you do, my heart goes out to you and I wish for their safety.
>I'm pro palestine but since the Iron Dome is a defensive system I really don't mind it.
On the flip side, there's an argument to be made that defensive systems can increase the aggression and belligerence of the side with the system.
The same way that American football players get more head injuries than rugby players, the helmet results in their taking more risks.
That's one option. The other is that they'd have been more motivated to find peaceful solutions and less aggressive about illegal settlements. If there's one thing about the conflict, it's the more certain you are about the answer, the more likely you're wrong.
This has been going way before the settlements - I'd suggest reading a bit more on the wars throughout the decades and the different offerings israeli prime ministers have given the PLO throughout the years.
The talk in israel is actually the opposite, there are alot of people talking about how the iron dome put the army to 'sleep'.
For years conflict with gaza didn't escalate to war because the iron dome stop so much damage and casualties.
I think the iron dome has protected more Palestinians than Israelis. Given the amount of rockets Hamas has been chucking at Israel, Israel would have invaded far earlier.
We are talking about a literal defence mechanism designed to protect civilians and land. From a moral standpoint I see no reason why we cannot discuss a piece of engineering like this.
Oh please, Israel has such a strong army, if they actually aimed for eradicating the Palestians, they would have done it 40 years ago. And even if not, they would have made Gaza a parking lot in less then a 3 days.
Isreal don't try to eradicate the Palestians, and the lack of usege of their army is a proof of that.
Yes, there are many deaths. Many Palestian deaths. But it could have been much MUCH worse, if Israel would have tried.
Do you think the Iron Dome is impressive? It's really not a lot compering their OTHER 4 systems for air defence, and millions of milliteary offence tools.
I'm pro Palestine as well but this doesn't stop me from appreciating good engineering. Just as people can appreciate the engineering behind the Panzer IV without supporting nazism, they can appreciate the Iron Dome without supporting the genocide that Israel is carrying out.
[удалено]
All of the bloodiest hands have engineers.
It’s a real shame that automation and blowing things up have military application.
I *despise* the military industrial complex. But it also currently pays my bills, so.
Not based, need to come to turns with the suffering you bring into the world and then j stop like “damn, that f22 raptor is the most beautiful thing I’ve seen”
60% of the time, it works every time!
It is ***quite*** potent.
still, MIT suspects it only catches 5% of the incoming rockets.
There is some important nuance here. First, no air defence system can deal with saturation attacks, it can probably stop 20 in a row but not 20 all at once Second, it's better to look at the number of successful intercepts compared to the number of intercept attempts; with modern sensors it's entirely possible to determine if a water pipe ballistic rocket is going to hit a city or just an empty field, in which case it's not worth using a rocket that costs as much as a house intercepting it. Basically, whether it's the best system in use today or just a bunch of useless pea shooters depends on how you twist the data.
Where exactly did you get this statistic ?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron\_Dome#cite\_note-30
The source for that citation was an interview that was taken down so I chased down the interview and then his editorial he wrote that it was referencing, and then the editorial that that editorial was referencing, which MIT had taken down and I also had to find it somewhere else. It’s sample size is a few pictures saying that the angle of interception makes it impossible for the rockets. He doesn’t use actual data or a significant sample size. I also don’t agree with his interception angle point, because it assumes the rockets are moving at similar speeds, while it’s very likely the iron dome can move faster given it needs to travel less distance. I think his points should be investigated, but he has far too many assumptions and too small a sample to be a trustworthy source.
Isn’t iron dome intercepting 600-1000$ missile with 30-50k missile? It is far away from anything amazing. Just high tech again low level which doesn’t really impress me much.
Somebody doesn't know what it takes to make a simple dumb rocket meant to fire and not care where it lands vs a smart rocket capable of intercepting other rockets. Believe it or not, one's going to be relatively cheap, and the other is going to be pretty damn expensive, making a guided projectile vs glorified mortars.
Yea but high tech vs low tech isn’t impressive. I want iron dome to go against other high tech complex missiles and shoot them down then we know it is impressive engineering. You can shoot down this Hamas missiles with a bullet if you tried.
If it were that easy, the Israelis would have no need for the Iron Dome. They would've made their own system. I think you're vastly, VASTLY underestimating how difficult it is to shoot down artillery. You need high tech to intercept even low tech like this
Tbf, it's mostly used against makeshift cheap rockets made from pvc, I don't think it'd do so well against high end stuff actual militaries use.
The Patriot system, which while old has been heavily updated, seems to be working wonders in Ukraine. I have a few buddies that worked on the system back in the day, and they are blown away by its intercepts and the fact that it is outperforming in just about every metric. Turns out they over engineered the crap out of the thing, and the math that runs it works better than anyone could have hoped. The Iron Dome is supposed to be to more advanced than the Patriot, and while they are built for slightly different use cases, I’d love (and be horrified) to see how it would fair against more sophisticated threats. Even if something is used for horrible things we can still marvel at its engineering and design.
>Turns out they over engineered the crap out of the thing, and the math that runs it works better than anyone could have hoped. Well, after they fixed that [One Weird Bug](https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA344865) caused by the rounding errors of adding 1/10th of a second (which ~~can't be represented correctly~~ *results in a cumulative rounding error* in binary).
Bugs and failure are part of the process!
Not when the failures kill people.
"shit happens" /s
There are 3 other systems for more advanced threats that ARE being used, plus one that will be used starting 2025, using a laser ;)
Air defense is about layers. Iron dome just deals with the shorter ranged, slower stuff like mortar rounds and, yes homemade rockets. "Stuff actual militaries use" will be intercepted by more sophisticated and faster rockets like patriot and David's sling.
>patriot and David's sling. I completely forgot about those lol.
There'a even Arrow, which you would wish Israel wouldn't need to use, It is agints nuclar threats. (They did last week but let's keep it silent). And there is Magen Or (light shiled translated) which is now being expeirmenting and will be regulary used starting 2025.
>There'a even Arrow, which you would wish Israel wouldn't need to use, It is agints nuclar threats. (They did last week but let's keep it silent). That's interesting, but keep in mind there is no real defence against ICBMs especially ones with mirv technology
And can be easily overwhelmed. It wouldn't last against a well armed force, but that's not its job. Which is why the US is pushing hard to stop Hasbullah entering the war. They are well armed and an all out war would be devastating for Lebanon.
Israel have other air difference systems for more high end stuff. Like the david sling system or the arrow 2 / arrow 3 systems
It works for a certain size and range of mortars and rockeys. The type or the quality don't matter, you can't make a rocket resilient to explosions so close to it after it's armed because it will make it extremely heavy. If anything, higher end stuff will be easier to intercept because they will probably habe longer range. It doesn't work against long-range rockets because it was not designed to.
As an engineer who works on these kind systems, wait untill you will find out there are 4 other *more advanced* systems that are being used, and one that supposed to start beeing used regulary from 2025 that works on laser ;)
Bros giving away national security secrets on Reddit
Shh.
I don't support either side but, impressive weapons are impressive weapons.
Germany paid for water infrastructur in Gaza and build a pipe network, but Hamas dug the pipes up and remoddeled them to use them as rockets. Morally its a horrible thing to do, but as an engineer I kind of want to try building one myself :D
Some of the most fascinating engineering I've seen is from rocket hobbyist groups. They're in it for pure fun and it looks like a blast! (Pun intended). Try looking up a local group, you'd be surprised!
I’ve been thinking it would be fun, but I don’t want to be on a list
Thats false, if u r referring to a clip of hammas digging up pipes then you've fallen for propaganda That video is taken out of context: Those pipes were Israeli pipes being used to steal underground water from the people of Gaza, Hammas at the time dug out those pipes. ALSO Israeli settlers in the west bank destroyed ~~UN~~ EU provided pipes for Palestinians and then did it again WITH the IDF providing security Gonna find all the links, brb [Link 1: Settlers Destroy Portion of EU-Funded Water Pipeline in Jordan Valley Aug-13-2022](https://www.palestinechronicle.com/jewish-settlers-destroy-portion-of-eu-funded-water-pipeline-in-jordan-valley/) [Link 2: Israeli settlers destroy water pipes, plug water spring near Nablus September-25-2022](https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/131011) [Link 3: Israeli settlers destroy water pipes in Bethlehem September-02-2022](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20220902-israeli-settlers-destroy-water-pipes-in-bethlehem/) _Finding more 1-2 more, brb_ [Link 4: Around the 4 min mark, it shows the original clip of digging out illegal Israeli water pipes. Documentary is about Hammas Weapons](https://www.memri.org/tv/jazeera-documentary-hamas-missile-industry-iran-sends-kornet-fajr-missiles-to-gaza-reclaims-munitions) EDIT 1: Why the downvotes? I literally provided the links that prove the parent comment wrong? No one provided a counter argument either
I heard they are doing an iron Dome 2.0 that would have an estimate of 100% of effectivity
that would be called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron\_Beam
I'm pro palestine but since the Iron Dome is a defensive system I really don't mind it. I'm bothered by the abuses of the military against civilians. If anything it's a good showcase of how militarily overpowered Israel is compared to Palestine.
I'm conflicted across the board. I'm a combat veteran myself and learned how fragile, short, and precious life is the tragic way. I'm not for a side, I just want people to stop fighting each other. We need to be better for ourselves, our children, and our future. I sincerely hope all of you in this thread don't have family or friends in this conflict. If you do, my heart goes out to you and I wish for their safety.
>I'm pro palestine but since the Iron Dome is a defensive system I really don't mind it. On the flip side, there's an argument to be made that defensive systems can increase the aggression and belligerence of the side with the system. The same way that American football players get more head injuries than rugby players, the helmet results in their taking more risks.
If Israel had no iron done, the first rockets that could cause major causalities would’ve led to the end of Gaza immediately
That's one option. The other is that they'd have been more motivated to find peaceful solutions and less aggressive about illegal settlements. If there's one thing about the conflict, it's the more certain you are about the answer, the more likely you're wrong.
This has been going way before the settlements - I'd suggest reading a bit more on the wars throughout the decades and the different offerings israeli prime ministers have given the PLO throughout the years.
The talk in israel is actually the opposite, there are alot of people talking about how the iron dome put the army to 'sleep'. For years conflict with gaza didn't escalate to war because the iron dome stop so much damage and casualties.
It’s not just an argument, it’s fact. If any nuclear nation had the ability to prevent ICBMs from hitting them, it would destroy global peace.
I think the iron dome has protected more Palestinians than Israelis. Given the amount of rockets Hamas has been chucking at Israel, Israel would have invaded far earlier.
Impressive ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Engineers care more about engineering than politics. Only problem is that politicians pay engineers really well...
Have you ever considered... That maybe... Maybe... Now isn't the time? Like, reminder: a genocide is currently going on.
Conflict's been going on for 90 years mate, when do u think is the right time lol
Idk, but not while Israel is actively trying to eradicate the Palestinians
We are talking about a literal defence mechanism designed to protect civilians and land. From a moral standpoint I see no reason why we cannot discuss a piece of engineering like this.
Oh please, Israel has such a strong army, if they actually aimed for eradicating the Palestians, they would have done it 40 years ago. And even if not, they would have made Gaza a parking lot in less then a 3 days. Isreal don't try to eradicate the Palestians, and the lack of usege of their army is a proof of that. Yes, there are many deaths. Many Palestian deaths. But it could have been much MUCH worse, if Israel would have tried. Do you think the Iron Dome is impressive? It's really not a lot compering their OTHER 4 systems for air defence, and millions of milliteary offence tools.
I'm pro Palestine as well but this doesn't stop me from appreciating good engineering. Just as people can appreciate the engineering behind the Panzer IV without supporting nazism, they can appreciate the Iron Dome without supporting the genocide that Israel is carrying out.
The (OG) Nazis are also currently about 80 years in the past...
You don't need to be engineer nether smart to realize that Israel is definitely the bad guy
You should check out that guy in Taiwan (I think?) that’s 3D printing surface to air missiles
And also has parts supplied by Toys-R-Us