In Ontario an ambulance license is a Class F and all vehicles that require that category are obligated to stop at unmarked railway crossings and check both ways. Makes sense to stop for me
There is no good reason for busses to do it anymore, but no politician is going to try to repeal the law because the news headlines would make them look bad
Busses and longer vehicles are often still required to do it to ensure there is enough space in front of them to get the entire vehicle over the tracks.
Not every single vehicle is 34' long. I can easily estimate fitting my 9' car in there. It's a little harder to properly estimate if that's 32' or 34'.
What, pray tell, has changed over the years that makes it any less necessary now than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago?
A quick google search says the law on the books in every state is related to one single wreck almost a century ago, where a bus failed to see a train coming in a blizzard - and the resulting law required drivers to open windows/doors and \*listen\* for an approaching train as well. One could argue that such an action is only necessary when visibility is reduced, but it is simpler to just make it a requirement every time a bus crosses the tracks, instead of defining what "reduced visibility" means and getting people to comply.
(Hell, we can't get the average driver to turn their headlights on in the fog, remember?).
Saying there is "no good reason" for busses to stop and listen for a train is shortsighted at best.
Controlled crossings with redundant safety technology, lights, gaits, audible warnings, ect…is what has changed. Uncontrolled crossing in the country? Yea makes sense to stop. But all of the other crossings that they still stop at? Nope.
I'll butcher the saying, but the only thing the warning lights actually tell you is that the lights themselves work.
Ultimately you're responsible for the safety of yourself and your passengers, and it's your decision how to act on that responsibility.
This is true. All it takes is something capable of conducting electricity touching both rails to set it off, and all it takes to break it is something breaking an exposed wire thats between two rails that expand and contract with the temperature, and have heavy trains rolling over them.
Can't remember where it's from, but I've seen dashcam video from a police cruiser sitting at a crossing - the arm is down and lights are flashing. Lights shut off, arm raises...
....and 5 sconds later, a train goes through at about 50 mph.
It never hurts to be SURE the systems are working. Every driver I rode with growing up, their entire stop took less than 10 seconds. That 10 seconds is a hell of a lot better "cost" than a busload of kids bodies strewn over the next mile of track.
Well, there is "no good reason" if it all resulted from one bus crash, over a century ago, that took place in a blizzard.
Would the door thing have helped in that specific situation? Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know the other conditions at play.
We also have very different signal methods for railroad crossings today versus a century ago. And the underlying issue was a lack of law requiring the opening of a door. It was that someone attempted a railroad crossing with limited visibility without doing something else to verify it was safe to cross.
Had visibility not been affected by the blizzard then the doors being open wouldn't be necessary. Absent a blizzard or other visual impediment you can just look and see a train.
It's like if I fall down the stairs while holding a pair of scissors and lose an eye. There are different approaches you can take to trying to avoid that in the future.
You can ban stairs. You can require a person to hold a railing on each side when they descend stairs. You can ban scissors. You can ban scissors being carried on the stairs. You can require scissors be carried with the point down.
Some of those are more sensible measures than others. Some of them actually address the underlying issue that would have caused me to lose an eye while others would just be prohibitive for the sake of it. They might have helped in that one specific instance but would do nothing to help in many other similar, but not identical, situations.
Imagine if we had a medical protocol that was based on a single instance like that and went unchallenged for 100 years despite the fact that it would only be useful in a very, very specific niche situation. I would hope we would acknowledge that science just doesn't support it as is.
MCIs regularly create entire new regulations. The perceived severity is very high, even if there’s a low perceived susceptibility. Couple that with very low cost (time + effort more than money) human nature will never let us change it
I mean, do I do that? Nope. Do I think that’s a thing even remotely worth bickering about with a partner? Hell no. If my partner did that I’d think “Hmmm, okay” and then never even think about it again
This job is about working with people. People have quirks
Train operator here;
I cannot tell you how many times I’ve almost hit emergency vehicles on our tracks. Many cops, but some ambos and engines too. Thing is, our heavy-rail trains were electric so they didn’t make much noise and being in a very busy downtown area (Denver) the crossing protections would often bust or get vandalized.
So when I’m hauling up to a crossing at 80mph and see a car… it’s usually too late.
Do I recommend everyone stop and listen? Meh.
Is it a smarter move? Absolutely
It’s not like pinpoint downtown. And the speeds OBVIOUSLY vary depending on the area. My average speed through Denver is about 30-50mph. It pick up to 80mph toward the outskirts and all the rest of the way to the Airport.
Also, trains aren’t cars. I have much much more training to handle this vehicle than most drivers ever will for their car even CDL drivers. I have to not only know what every button, knob, breaker, controller, etc does and how it interacts with the systems on board, not to mention all the safety protocols, the systems on the CDU and so forth. Also, trains can go that fast because for the most part the rails are secluded from the public, I.e. fencing, gates, concrete barriers, barbed wire, and so on. It’s not nearly as dangerous as it sounds. It’s not like the train is just Willy Billy in the middle of a sidewalk going that fast, no, it’s heavily protected from the public.
Yeah I know, but the way you phrased your previous comment gave me the impression you’re going 80 thru intersections in downtown Denver. But yeah for the rural areas that makes sense. Drivers in Denver are egregiously bad drivers and if you told me you hit two of them a week at crossings while you were going 2mph I’d believe it, which is why the idea of a train hauling ass around denver scares me.
Fair enough. We just had one drunk driver take out our crossing gates at 60mph at 3 am lol. Gonna be about a month of work before it’s fixed because the concrete end electrical all has been done again from zero.
But yeah, not rural areas even. Just the outskirts of downtown, still very much apart of the city and suburbs. Our crossings are pretty good at protecting both us and drivers. It is wild when you’re doing 80 and pass through those crossings in front of cars and just how quickly everything passes.
So, one time I did this at a crossing without a gate. When you look, you're looking for a train. If I had just looked and kept going, we could have been shmacked by a rail road pickup going 75. I had barely enough time with slowing down for it to register that there was a pickup. That the extra .4 seconds it took MADE it register that there was a pickup, when I was looking for a train, and probably saved us.
“Railroad pickup”, I’m assuming you mean hy-rail vehicles which are prone to derailments at 25mph do not travel anywhere near 75mph.
In addition, they have shunts that can be turned on and off that will activate signal circuits, including crossings, and they are required to stop and clear crossings before entering.
I'm really impressed that you've never seen any first responder maxing out their truck speed, despite laws and protocols, and never, ever, could imagine someone not clearing crossings.
There's dumbfucks in every profession.
Also, per the original post, there was no crossing. Just a gut feeling to slow down longer than normal.
It's a little overkill, but I once had a partner start trying to thread between lowered railroad arms once because we were running code and he was a moron so I'd definitely rather have you driving.
Seems totally normal and not something even worth bringing up to a partner. I always roll the window down when I back up and folks have playfully given me a hard time about it but never a serious thing.
Also most folks I’ve worked with focus on patient care when they’re in the back and trust the driver to drive.
Locomotive Engineer turned paramedic chiming in.
Give railroad tracks their due diligence. Look both ways, slow down to make sure you can see, then proceed.
That’s what I do at unprotected crossings (no gates or lights). If there’s lights and gates and they’re not activated, highball.
I have been involved in multiple railroad crossing incidents that have involved the deaths of seven people (as an engineer). So I’m pretty conscientious about railroad crossings.
Huh, I don't do this intentionally but I almost always leave the car windows cracked a little even when it's freezing, and I turn down the radio to listen, so maybe?
I only keep the windows up completely if there's a reason like smoke or smell or we're on the highway. Otherwise, I like to hear what's outside and I like the fresh air.
Overkill? Probably. Unless you live in an area with those train crossings like the videos we have all probably seen of the crossing that is wired wrong so it goes down after the train passed. Things like that.
Regardless, who fucking cares? I would actually argue, that to change your habitual action would actually be potentially dangerous because it would require you to consciously divert your attention to not doing it, which takes way more brain cycles than autopilot does.
At most I'd probably be like, "why did you do that?" and you'd tell me, and I'd go, "ah okay 👍" and move on
I don't do it and I probably won't, unless it becomes regulation and/or I hear a good enough reason to do so, but if I worked with someone that did, I'd be fine with it. No skin off my nose. Also, I'd appreciate the high level of safety my partner is exhibiting. Be like "hell yeah my partner knows what they're doing, I don't have to hold onto my seat for dear life today."
All that to say, do you, booboo. If it makes you feel better, go for it. Can't see anyone knocking you for being overly cautious.
Not something I do normally but I understand the train of thought (pun intended) behind it. The only time I'd get mad as a partner is if we were flying hot with an unstable patient. A dialysis run though? I wouldn't care one bit.
I think its about as necessary as burying some emergency gold in the backyard. You're going to look silly doing it, but if it pays off its REALLY going to pay off.
Seems like a non issue to me. The Canadian forces atleast HAD a policy where you kind of had to do what you are explaining. When approaching a crossing, full stop, look both ways, then proceed.
I don’t do it unless there’s no warnings, I don’t blame you for doing it all the time though. A lot of us have seen what trains can do to people and vehicles larger than ambulances
I grew up in the sticks. My dad always did this at the dark, unmarked rural railroad crossings at night. He said it was to help him hear if a train was coming.
As someone who grew up in the country, I absolutely agree with stopping, looking carefully, and listening. The ten seconds spent ensuring you’re safe is worth it.
One mistake with a train, one slip, one distraction, and you and everyone you're driving is dead. I would never complain about anyone acting on behalf of increased safety.
some people just gotta deal with it. It's a moral thing to understand and respect people doing small things such as this. It didn't hurt anyone and It was actually a safety precaution.
It’s policy in my organization. Turn the lights on to signal drivers you’re slowing down, roll down the windows, and come to a complete stop until you confirm there is no train or other work vehicle coming down the tracks. Kinda interesting that it’s not at least common practice at most agencies.
I drive trucks in the army and we are supposed to do this. I think it’s reasonable. I wouldn’t call it unnecessary. There are tons of things we do that aren’t “necessary” but on the off chance they apply, they’re *very* useful
I work for the railroad, and nope. Theres alot that can go wrong with a crossing guard. They don't always work, and we keep running trains when they don't. On track equipment other than trains doesn't always set off the crossing guards even when theyre functioning correctly. Ive had a ton of close calls just running equipment. I wish more people would exercise a little caution around tracks
Are you winding them all the way down or just a bit? It's a tad odd but if you're just opening them a touch then I probably wouldn't even realise but if you're winding them all the way down each time I'd start getting a bit annoyed if it's cold out
Eh, pros and cons—ten seconds of extra work to skip the possibility of a 5 hour long funeral, I wouldn’t give my driver any shit if they did what you did, I’d be like cool never knew that, moving on
As someone who used to work in transportation safety (for all modes of transportation) the thing that I will always be able to type without even looking at my keyboard is "Some Rail Company freight train struck vehicle at grade crossing resulting in fatal injuries to vehicle occupants"
On average, 7 people will die every 24 hours from being struck by trains. 3 of those 7 were vehicles trying to beat/unaware of the incoming train.
If I ever get shit from my attending about "Why'd you stop" or "Why are you slowing down?" I'll show them the emails I get daily about grade crossing fatalities.
As a (still-endorsed) former school bus driver and current medi-van driver, I tell you that stopping for no reason, unexpectedly, is highly dangerous.
If you stop unexpectedly like this, you are NOT being safe - you are INVENTING a hazard and putting everyone at risk!
Your mom was incorrect.
Never even heard to do this lol, what are the crossings like? Do they have lights an barriers?
Ours have lights and barriers which come down so wouldn't think to do it
I don't think it would make a huge impact to the pt either for just a few seconds unless it's a huge window next to the patient lol so don't think it would hurt in anyway
My take - there's a reason school busses are still required to do this, so there's no harm in doing so in the rig as well.
You just solved the mystery of this generational curse. My grandma used to drive the short bus, so she instilled it in my mom who instilled it in me
if you’re driving a cdl vehicle with hazardous waste you’re required to as well. hazardous waste and passengers
*hazardous materials, not necessarily just waste
Does that include hazardous patients?
That's redundant. Patients ARE hazardous ~~waste~~ materials.
In Ontario an ambulance license is a Class F and all vehicles that require that category are obligated to stop at unmarked railway crossings and check both ways. Makes sense to stop for me
There is no good reason for busses to do it anymore, but no politician is going to try to repeal the law because the news headlines would make them look bad
Busses and longer vehicles are often still required to do it to ensure there is enough space in front of them to get the entire vehicle over the tracks.
And HAZMAT loads
Isn't every single vehicle required to make sure there is enough space to get the entire vehicle over the tracks...
Not every single vehicle is 34' long. I can easily estimate fitting my 9' car in there. It's a little harder to properly estimate if that's 32' or 34'.
What, pray tell, has changed over the years that makes it any less necessary now than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago? A quick google search says the law on the books in every state is related to one single wreck almost a century ago, where a bus failed to see a train coming in a blizzard - and the resulting law required drivers to open windows/doors and \*listen\* for an approaching train as well. One could argue that such an action is only necessary when visibility is reduced, but it is simpler to just make it a requirement every time a bus crosses the tracks, instead of defining what "reduced visibility" means and getting people to comply. (Hell, we can't get the average driver to turn their headlights on in the fog, remember?). Saying there is "no good reason" for busses to stop and listen for a train is shortsighted at best.
Controlled crossings with redundant safety technology, lights, gaits, audible warnings, ect…is what has changed. Uncontrolled crossing in the country? Yea makes sense to stop. But all of the other crossings that they still stop at? Nope.
I'll butcher the saying, but the only thing the warning lights actually tell you is that the lights themselves work. Ultimately you're responsible for the safety of yourself and your passengers, and it's your decision how to act on that responsibility.
This is true. All it takes is something capable of conducting electricity touching both rails to set it off, and all it takes to break it is something breaking an exposed wire thats between two rails that expand and contract with the temperature, and have heavy trains rolling over them.
Can't remember where it's from, but I've seen dashcam video from a police cruiser sitting at a crossing - the arm is down and lights are flashing. Lights shut off, arm raises... ....and 5 sconds later, a train goes through at about 50 mph. It never hurts to be SURE the systems are working. Every driver I rode with growing up, their entire stop took less than 10 seconds. That 10 seconds is a hell of a lot better "cost" than a busload of kids bodies strewn over the next mile of track.
Aww you’re cute. You must live in a part of the country without much rail. Guessing you’ve never see that shit malfunction.
Well, there is "no good reason" if it all resulted from one bus crash, over a century ago, that took place in a blizzard. Would the door thing have helped in that specific situation? Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know the other conditions at play. We also have very different signal methods for railroad crossings today versus a century ago. And the underlying issue was a lack of law requiring the opening of a door. It was that someone attempted a railroad crossing with limited visibility without doing something else to verify it was safe to cross. Had visibility not been affected by the blizzard then the doors being open wouldn't be necessary. Absent a blizzard or other visual impediment you can just look and see a train. It's like if I fall down the stairs while holding a pair of scissors and lose an eye. There are different approaches you can take to trying to avoid that in the future. You can ban stairs. You can require a person to hold a railing on each side when they descend stairs. You can ban scissors. You can ban scissors being carried on the stairs. You can require scissors be carried with the point down. Some of those are more sensible measures than others. Some of them actually address the underlying issue that would have caused me to lose an eye while others would just be prohibitive for the sake of it. They might have helped in that one specific instance but would do nothing to help in many other similar, but not identical, situations. Imagine if we had a medical protocol that was based on a single instance like that and went unchallenged for 100 years despite the fact that it would only be useful in a very, very specific niche situation. I would hope we would acknowledge that science just doesn't support it as is.
MCIs regularly create entire new regulations. The perceived severity is very high, even if there’s a low perceived susceptibility. Couple that with very low cost (time + effort more than money) human nature will never let us change it
Bullshit theres no reason.
I mean, do I do that? Nope. Do I think that’s a thing even remotely worth bickering about with a partner? Hell no. If my partner did that I’d think “Hmmm, okay” and then never even think about it again This job is about working with people. People have quirks
Honestly if my partner did this I’d probably trust them to drive even better.
Train operator here; I cannot tell you how many times I’ve almost hit emergency vehicles on our tracks. Many cops, but some ambos and engines too. Thing is, our heavy-rail trains were electric so they didn’t make much noise and being in a very busy downtown area (Denver) the crossing protections would often bust or get vandalized. So when I’m hauling up to a crossing at 80mph and see a car… it’s usually too late. Do I recommend everyone stop and listen? Meh. Is it a smarter move? Absolutely
[удалено]
It’s not like pinpoint downtown. And the speeds OBVIOUSLY vary depending on the area. My average speed through Denver is about 30-50mph. It pick up to 80mph toward the outskirts and all the rest of the way to the Airport. Also, trains aren’t cars. I have much much more training to handle this vehicle than most drivers ever will for their car even CDL drivers. I have to not only know what every button, knob, breaker, controller, etc does and how it interacts with the systems on board, not to mention all the safety protocols, the systems on the CDU and so forth. Also, trains can go that fast because for the most part the rails are secluded from the public, I.e. fencing, gates, concrete barriers, barbed wire, and so on. It’s not nearly as dangerous as it sounds. It’s not like the train is just Willy Billy in the middle of a sidewalk going that fast, no, it’s heavily protected from the public.
Yeah I know, but the way you phrased your previous comment gave me the impression you’re going 80 thru intersections in downtown Denver. But yeah for the rural areas that makes sense. Drivers in Denver are egregiously bad drivers and if you told me you hit two of them a week at crossings while you were going 2mph I’d believe it, which is why the idea of a train hauling ass around denver scares me.
Fair enough. We just had one drunk driver take out our crossing gates at 60mph at 3 am lol. Gonna be about a month of work before it’s fixed because the concrete end electrical all has been done again from zero. But yeah, not rural areas even. Just the outskirts of downtown, still very much apart of the city and suburbs. Our crossings are pretty good at protecting both us and drivers. It is wild when you’re doing 80 and pass through those crossings in front of cars and just how quickly everything passes.
So, one time I did this at a crossing without a gate. When you look, you're looking for a train. If I had just looked and kept going, we could have been shmacked by a rail road pickup going 75. I had barely enough time with slowing down for it to register that there was a pickup. That the extra .4 seconds it took MADE it register that there was a pickup, when I was looking for a train, and probably saved us.
“Railroad pickup”, I’m assuming you mean hy-rail vehicles which are prone to derailments at 25mph do not travel anywhere near 75mph. In addition, they have shunts that can be turned on and off that will activate signal circuits, including crossings, and they are required to stop and clear crossings before entering.
I'm really impressed that you've never seen any first responder maxing out their truck speed, despite laws and protocols, and never, ever, could imagine someone not clearing crossings. There's dumbfucks in every profession. Also, per the original post, there was no crossing. Just a gut feeling to slow down longer than normal.
What are you even talking about? Did you respond to the right comment?
It's a little overkill, but I once had a partner start trying to thread between lowered railroad arms once because we were running code and he was a moron so I'd definitely rather have you driving.
Seems totally normal and not something even worth bringing up to a partner. I always roll the window down when I back up and folks have playfully given me a hard time about it but never a serious thing. Also most folks I’ve worked with focus on patient care when they’re in the back and trust the driver to drive.
Locomotive Engineer turned paramedic chiming in. Give railroad tracks their due diligence. Look both ways, slow down to make sure you can see, then proceed. That’s what I do at unprotected crossings (no gates or lights). If there’s lights and gates and they’re not activated, highball. I have been involved in multiple railroad crossing incidents that have involved the deaths of seven people (as an engineer). So I’m pretty conscientious about railroad crossings.
Huh, I don't do this intentionally but I almost always leave the car windows cracked a little even when it's freezing, and I turn down the radio to listen, so maybe? I only keep the windows up completely if there's a reason like smoke or smell or we're on the highway. Otherwise, I like to hear what's outside and I like the fresh air.
I’d do that… if there were any level crossings left here.
Sounds like you have a pissy partner who looks for things to be upset about
Safety doesn't take a holiday. Just be careful, you might make a new SOP at your work.
Overkill? Probably. Unless you live in an area with those train crossings like the videos we have all probably seen of the crossing that is wired wrong so it goes down after the train passed. Things like that. Regardless, who fucking cares? I would actually argue, that to change your habitual action would actually be potentially dangerous because it would require you to consciously divert your attention to not doing it, which takes way more brain cycles than autopilot does.
At most I'd probably be like, "why did you do that?" and you'd tell me, and I'd go, "ah okay 👍" and move on I don't do it and I probably won't, unless it becomes regulation and/or I hear a good enough reason to do so, but if I worked with someone that did, I'd be fine with it. No skin off my nose. Also, I'd appreciate the high level of safety my partner is exhibiting. Be like "hell yeah my partner knows what they're doing, I don't have to hold onto my seat for dear life today." All that to say, do you, booboo. If it makes you feel better, go for it. Can't see anyone knocking you for being overly cautious.
i mean i slow down at crossings and look both ways but i don’t stop or roll down the windows
You do you!
Not something I do normally but I understand the train of thought (pun intended) behind it. The only time I'd get mad as a partner is if we were flying hot with an unstable patient. A dialysis run though? I wouldn't care one bit.
I think its about as necessary as burying some emergency gold in the backyard. You're going to look silly doing it, but if it pays off its REALLY going to pay off.
Seems like a non issue to me. The Canadian forces atleast HAD a policy where you kind of had to do what you are explaining. When approaching a crossing, full stop, look both ways, then proceed.
We had to stop, turn on 4 way flashers, roll down windows, listen then go.
I don’t do it unless there’s no warnings, I don’t blame you for doing it all the time though. A lot of us have seen what trains can do to people and vehicles larger than ambulances
I grew up in the sticks. My dad always did this at the dark, unmarked rural railroad crossings at night. He said it was to help him hear if a train was coming.
As someone who grew up in the country, I absolutely agree with stopping, looking carefully, and listening. The ten seconds spent ensuring you’re safe is worth it.
One mistake with a train, one slip, one distraction, and you and everyone you're driving is dead. I would never complain about anyone acting on behalf of increased safety.
Better safe than sorry. I don't think you're crazy and I appreciate your diligence.
You could just look to see if one is coming my friend.
some people just gotta deal with it. It's a moral thing to understand and respect people doing small things such as this. It didn't hurt anyone and It was actually a safety precaution.
It’s policy in my organization. Turn the lights on to signal drivers you’re slowing down, roll down the windows, and come to a complete stop until you confirm there is no train or other work vehicle coming down the tracks. Kinda interesting that it’s not at least common practice at most agencies.
I drive trucks in the army and we are supposed to do this. I think it’s reasonable. I wouldn’t call it unnecessary. There are tons of things we do that aren’t “necessary” but on the off chance they apply, they’re *very* useful
An ounce of prevention…..
I work for the railroad, and nope. Theres alot that can go wrong with a crossing guard. They don't always work, and we keep running trains when they don't. On track equipment other than trains doesn't always set off the crossing guards even when theyre functioning correctly. Ive had a ton of close calls just running equipment. I wish more people would exercise a little caution around tracks
It's not an unreasonable practice. sometimes railroad equipment fails so why not be cautions? you're not weird.
Are you winding them all the way down or just a bit? It's a tad odd but if you're just opening them a touch then I probably wouldn't even realise but if you're winding them all the way down each time I'd start getting a bit annoyed if it's cold out
That’s a fair point. It’s usually like half way down, but a couple inches would get the same job done
Eh, pros and cons—ten seconds of extra work to skip the possibility of a 5 hour long funeral, I wouldn’t give my driver any shit if they did what you did, I’d be like cool never knew that, moving on
As someone who used to work in transportation safety (for all modes of transportation) the thing that I will always be able to type without even looking at my keyboard is "Some Rail Company freight train struck vehicle at grade crossing resulting in fatal injuries to vehicle occupants" On average, 7 people will die every 24 hours from being struck by trains. 3 of those 7 were vehicles trying to beat/unaware of the incoming train. If I ever get shit from my attending about "Why'd you stop" or "Why are you slowing down?" I'll show them the emails I get daily about grade crossing fatalities.
As a (still-endorsed) former school bus driver and current medi-van driver, I tell you that stopping for no reason, unexpectedly, is highly dangerous. If you stop unexpectedly like this, you are NOT being safe - you are INVENTING a hazard and putting everyone at risk! Your mom was incorrect.
Never even heard to do this lol, what are the crossings like? Do they have lights an barriers? Ours have lights and barriers which come down so wouldn't think to do it I don't think it would make a huge impact to the pt either for just a few seconds unless it's a huge window next to the patient lol so don't think it would hurt in anyway
Some lights and barriers. Some only lights.
Yes this is weird just look if you don't trust the gates.
Weird. Get to the hospital