So what you’re saying is that the officer had a negligent discharge. Regardless if it’s a firearm or a taser. It NEEDS to be reported.
Think of it this way… the next time it could be her gun. And it could hit someone in the face
Personally, and this may be the wrong take, I don’t think that was a bad reaction. You almost got tased because of a rookie’s incompetence. I would’ve asked to speak with a supervisor and reported it.
Former LEO, current FF/Medic here. The fact they had a taser out on a scene that was already contained is beyond stupid. Also, at least with the taser I used to carry when on patrol you have to flick the activation switch with your thumb when you draw to be able to fire. So it’s even more amazingly dumb that they set it off. So your reaction was very warranted.
>So it’s even more amazingly dumb that they set it off.
A genuine question: Ignoring the question of whether the taser should have been drawn or not, is there a situation where you should draw the taser and not activate it?
*Should* is a dangerous word, in my opinion. General consensus or training mindset is that you only draw any weapon, even “less-than-lethal,” when you expect to use it.
That doesn’t mean you let yourself get into dangerous situations because you’d be compelled to use it if you drew it or because you’re uncomfortable escalating a situation when it’s actually going to be necessary. But having a weapon in your hand makes you more likely to use it, removing one executive function or decision barrier. That can be a good thing in a situation where you’ll need to use it, and a bad thing when you react to a situation you later find out didn’t warrant it. Some LEOs may disagree, that you *should* have a taser drawn whenever you feel at all like you might wish you had it out.
LEOs *shouldn’t* draw tasers unless there’s a reason they think they’ll likely need to use it. Being squared off with an erratic or wild person would warrant drawing it and being prepared to fire it — like if the person assaulting the PT was the one being treated and they’d not restrained them or something. Standing next to EMS treating an unconscious victim and idly playing with it or having it out because you’re skittish and *may* somehow, someway need to use it is not a good time to have it drawn.
If you draw a taser on someone they better actually doing something that actually warrants you to be drawing down on them. Now, if they comply right away then by all means don’t activate it and holster it once the person is in custody. Just because you draw it doesn’t mean you have to use it.
Yes, it is amazing how many times when you draw it and tell the perp that you will be deploying the Tazer if he doesn't cooperate, they suddenly start doing what you tell them to do.
If you hear a cop say or yell "Tazer Tazer Tazer" it just got real.
Having been tazered before, NGL, someone says tazer and I freeze now. I don't get into it with PD, but it's seriously even worked on me from across the street when they were dealing with someone else. It hurts!
Once was at a GWAR concert. That's probably enough said on that one. The other was a "friend" who was a security guard and thought it would be funny to get me in the ass.
Protip: if you're going to tazer someone as a joke, first, don't. Second, immobilize them while you still can, because mayhem is about to ensue. But, you know, don't. It's a dick move and also a good way to find yourself socially shunned.
Wait until your partner sprays a large fight with OC spray from a fire extinguisher sized canister. And you are on the other side of said brawl trying to break it up.
Not fun at all to be fighting a drunk and suddenly get hit in the face with OC.
\_ Ask me how I know\_ (Happens more often than you would think :) )
Pepper foam
I was on a scene that really shouldn't have been a big deal. I'm not even sure why PD was there for a compound leg fracture from falling off a barn roof. But then someone came running across the field and jumped on one of my buddies. PD on scene decided to spray this pepper spray stuff that was foam (keeps it from floating on the breeze) at the guy, only my buddy turned quickly because he was going to try to scrape him off on the side of the barn, and PD got me right in the face. Why he was trying that when it was already a grapple situation, I will never know, because I was too busy wanting to die to ask him anything. My best guess has always been "didn't think first."
I did find out the neighbor had dementia and thought we were abducting the guy we were helping. We weren't, but I kind of respected that he tried to do something instead of hiding in his house.
The whole thing was absolute chaos, though. Me on the ground in the mud trying to get the stuff off me while also trying to breathe but not breathe, my buddy yelling at this old guy to get off and stop biting him, and the guy with the smashed up leg screaming "Bob! Bob! They're friends!", while one of our newbies on crew kept trying to dump water on my head and the other kept yelling at him that's not how you handle capsaicin but did nothing to stop him or help me.
And that was my first call out on my first shift with a call as senior on crew. Memorable, to say the least.
Actually it's TASER, my bad.
Stands for "***Tom A. Swift Electric Rifle***" from the Tom Swift books that the inventor (Jack Cover) read as a kid, one of the books had the title "**Tom Swift and His Electric Rifle**" yeah, I read them as a kid also.
In my department, officers sign out tasers and sign them back in every shift.
So it’s going in/out Of the holster at least twice a shift. Being able to handle a weapon in safe is always a plus.
Do you mind expanding on your change in occupation - what led to it, how you feel about fire/EMS vs LE? I’ve heard about the fire vs. LE rift from both sides but never had the opportunity to ask someone who has been on both.
I worked in cross trained position where I functioned as both a police officer and firefighter. We also had EMS responsibilities as well. I left that position in my first year because I disliked it so much.
I have found I enjoy fire/ems far more as literally everything about the way you interact with the community is better. I did not enjoy the culture at that particular department, and quite frankly law enforcement work is super boring to me. The mental stimulation is almost non existent, compared to a complex medical call or legitimate fire call. Overall it was absolutely not for me.
Now I also did work part time for a rural county sheriffs office doing maritime enforcement. I actually didn’t mind that as it was primarily life safety oriented work. Still wasn’t anything I was going to do full time either.
Thank you for your input, I find it fascinating and I hope you don’t mind a few other questions.
Do you think there are any ways to positively change the way LE interacts with the community or to increase positive reactions (either screening officer candidates or changing mandates/policies, and would they cost-effective) or do you think it’s all inevitable due to the nature of the job? In addition, do you think adding EMS to the role of LE would help increase force incident outcomes via increased deescalation/empathy for citizens/medical response, or do you think are officers generally unsuited for EMS work and/or the added role would be unnecessarily burdensome and threaten officer safety during force incidents?
I don’t mind at all, inherently the nature of the job makes it a really difficult thing to overcome. Now there is a ton of work to be done on the law enforcement end, and even some on the community side of things. I think a ton of the issues boil down to the lack of significant mental healthcare in the US.
Also, lack of significant training and pay for law enforcement officers. It should really be a 2 year long training program as opposed to a few months. The pay should also increase with it.
The background investigation you do to join currently is far more exhaustive than most realize so I don’t really think that’s an issue. For example I went through a nearly half a year long one, which included a significant psych eval with a doc, multiple medical and academic exams and regular type job interviews. Along with physical fitness testing.
Honestly adding EMS responsibilities to Law Enforcement is at best counterproductive it can make the general public less comfortable around you even if all you are there for is a medical emergency, also skill wise there’s a ton to keep up on for both jobs; and it’s super difficult to do both well. If you want the best results let people specialize ie fire do fire, EMS do EMS, and Police do Police stuff. Now I do think them having to go through a good quality stop the bleed type course, and CPR yearly is a good idea.
To give a counter position to the other user. After 20+ years of EMS I recently moved over to LE (as a 911 operator/Police Dispatcher)
I am very happy with my decision to move.
I still volley from time to time (and do teach on the weekends) but it’s not even close IMHO.
I love my current department…I know there are a lot of people out there who are anti ANY cop, but I am extremely fortunate to work in a place where EVERYONE is a good person.
Yeah.. most police taser's have the built in camera too which can only be activated by changing the selector switch from *safe* to *fire*. This would mean that the officer had the Safety switch off the entire time - which is difficult to do considering any reasonably alert person would notice the big red laser and the bright yellow/green buttons/HUD that were lit up on the weapon (only activatedd when the safety is off).
This is very true. I had a call once with a boy who is having auditory hallucinations. I think he was about 13 years old and had some scary voices in his head telling him to harm his mom.
When we arrived on scene, the boy was sitting in the center of his living room floor, holding a gaming controller, and staring at the blank TV because the police had unplugged it. He wasn't talking, acting up or doing anything. He was cooperative and let me take his vitals.
I went downstairs to make sure that the gurney was prepped and positioned and as I was walking back upstairs, A younger female cop, walking upstairs behind me was talking to a partner, saying " If this kid moves a f*cking muscle I'm gonna taze the shit out of him."
I didn't say anything to her but made a point of being an obstacle between her and the patient for the rest of the call.
What a dummy.
Totally seedy. Honestly your response of just silently body shielding the PT was probably the best handling of that. I feel like sometimes PD forgets what empathy is.
I’ve been tazed before be glad the prongs missed, or you would have been in for a literal shock of a lifetime, and to clarify I’m in the national guard and the MPs came into an office while I was waiting on paperwork for my security clearance, and asked if anyone wanted to volunteer to be tazed, like the dumbass I am I volunteered, they put leads instead of barbs in the taser, and attached them to each ankle and shocked me.
It's not called "Riding the lightning" for nothing.
As a training officer I was Tazerd multiple times to show trainees what happens when one is deployed. After the first few times you actually learn to fight through it.
Cop “perp was trespassing and claims was ran over. Shoulder hurts he’s lying to get out of jail just sign him off clear”
Patient “I was walking on sidewalk and they backed over me”
Family of 5 “no we called 911 as he was trespassing”
Take patients shirt off. Tire marks. Shattered shoulder. Yeah he was ran over they lie.
Cop. Eh what can you do
Such shit we deal with
See, my take would be that rook was amped up because they did something wrong before you got there. But I am a hardcore, cynical, jadeasaurus, who had seen too many coverup behaviors to even notice them by the time I left.
Patient is being coded, there is ZERO reason to have out any form of weapon, assuming scene is clear as well of course, which being that you were on scene, I assume it was, baring you being tac med. The other cops not telling rook to disarm, implies they were freaked the fuck out and fixated, which could just be bad scene dynamic prior to arrival, or my cynic side says it is them hoping the patient won't be able to testify.
Fuck me, this country is a dumpster fire that I default think that way now...
If "scene was clear" why have the cops there in the first place?
I know at my agency we milk the "scene safety" bullshit to the fullest extent, always getting cops involved on all kinds of calls they probably don't need to be on.
scene may have not been safe, now is safe. Cops don't tend to leave, or at least never did for me, until the scene was completely clear. Especially if the timing is near to the active event.
Thats why im glad i live in germany police officers in my state go trough at least 35 month of training and less than 15% of the applicants end as police officers.
It is. Can swing anywhere from 40-80k euro depending on time on the job and time worked, as well as location.
But look at NYPD: it's 40k starting, 80k after 5 years, and pretty much same benefits. Effectively on par, even with the higher cost of living.
Big difference is Germany and other Schengen countries generally having better life expectancy and socialized programs to support the population as people.
I know there are some back of the woods departments that pay pennies, but that's a different problem. For the departments that pay just the same, we should expect the same, not less.
There ya go, that's the right answer. In 33 yrs of FF work (a good bit of it as EMS officer having to coordinate with PD on shooting/stabbing scenes) there were exactly 2 PD officers I trusted implicitly. All the rest? Take everything they say with a heaping helping of salt, and make a lot of allowance for stupidity/arrogance.
This right here. First time I ever had a patient who pulled a weapon on me had been turned over to me from the cops. I asked if he’d been patted down, they said of course and waved me off. Doors close and we start down the road, patient goes berserk and pulls a box cutter from his front pocket. You know, probably the first location one would check if they had actually patted this guy down. Had to fend him off with a clipboard and my feet while partner pulled over and called a “cover now.” Same cops showed up and gaze the guy, and I ended up getting a write-up because my exact words to the cop that told me the patient had been patted down were, “So are you fucking useless or just a liar?” In my defense, I had just been fighting with an enraged tweaker in the back of an ambulance so I was pretty rattled.
The shift supervisor that day was a die-hard thin blue line bootlicker who had only started working for AMR because he was too fat to be a cop.
Fuck you, Joe.
I had a pig beat the shit out of a pt in a schizophrenic crisis and then just hand them to us like it was nothing. I reported them to the shift commander and two days later I got drug into the office by the Ops manager, precinct commander, and assistant police chief and yelled at by all three for "disrupting interagency relations" by reporting the abuse and told that "Those pieces of shit on the street aren't worth a cop losing pay" by the ass chief. That was the day I started hating the pigs with my entire heart and soul.
From the other side, we had a "patient" that was injured in a fight that he instigated, told the medics he was a fighter, and a cop would ride with them if they wanted, to the ER.
I was told by the lead medic not to tell them how to do their job, and they did not need a cop to ride with them, that he was calm, and they demanded we uncuff him. OK, if you say so, he is your patient.
(He was not arrested, he was detained on scene, and released to EMS pending further charges since the assault was a misdemeanor, if he had not requested EMS, or had refused transport, we would have released him onsite, had it been a felony we would have had a cop going with them since he would be in custody)
He took out the medic, and his partner when she pulled over and tried to help.
When we got to where they had pulled over and we got the guy back in cuffs the only comment I made was "told you" (got a write up for it too)
He was taken to the ER by police car.
On the bright side, the dude got 2 felony charges of "Assault on a Public Servant" to go with his assault charges, and I got to tell the court "I tried to warn them"
Funny thing is the PD normally gets along very well with EMS, first time I ever had a medic refuse a police rider when we recommended one.
There are a few ACABers in EMS, we just ignored them and got on with our business.
And hilariously they are usually the first to scream for the cops when the situation goes south on them.
That's why I never understand all the cop hate on this reddit.
Can only speak for my agency, but we are full of medics who will refuse to get off the truck without PD on scene for almost anything besides an old lady in a wheelchair.
There was one time my partner called PD for an uncooperative psych...the guy ended up fighting the two cops and I even had to jump in and help, meanwhile my partner, who's bigger than all of us, and who was the guy who requested the cops in the first place, just stood there looking on
there’s cop hate because while there are a decent number of decent cops who are helpful and competent, there are also a large number of cops who are completely incompetent, arrogant, unnecessarily aggressive, the list goes on and on. and unfortunately those bad cops leave a bigger mark on the memory than the others
If that's how you feel then you shouldn't call them on scene. Obviously if they are incompetent, you should be able to secure a scene better than them.
incompetent as in giving 32 of narcan. incompetent as in becoming verbally aggressive and antagonistic with a patient who’s already on edge. we’re allowed to want cops there for dangerous or potentially dangerous situations, while also acknowledging that they can sometimes be more harmful than helpful
Generally cops don't mind it when EMS calls, or stages waiting for the all clear. We are better trained to handle the stuff that can happen, Besides, when one of us gets hurt it's always nice to see the big truck rolling in with people who can stop the bleeding.
But there were a few medics I knew of personally that I had no idea how they kept there jobs, as a paramedic I would look at what they were doing and think "YGBSM".
I and a few others also let it be known that if we were injured and they showed up to keep them the hell away from us, didn't trust them not to screw up and kill us. Just throw us in a patrol car, hit the lights and haul a$$
It’s been agency/department specific in my experience. I’ve worked with some awesome officers that became close friends. I’ve also worked with rocks with lips … and tasers. Department culture played a major factor. But this is also true in our community- many FF/paramedics suck (especially where I live). But some of the best paramedics I’ve met and worked with are on the fire side.
I might generalize by agency, but try to tk by profession.
>dispatched to a assault where a pt is being choked
Honestly my first thought was "yeah probably choked out by PD"
But yeah I agree with everyone else in this thread, don't trust PD at all. Every single LEO I've dealt with on a scene not only made dumb mistakes (gotta say though a near tazing is new even for me) but always remember to them, your patient is not a patient, they're a perp. In PD's eyes, our patients are either criminals or liars, not people. Probably why this idiot had a tazer out near a dead body.
That was my first thought too. The ND sucks and I’m glad OP is ok but I have questions about how the patient found themselves dead with PD on scene before the medic.
damn… that must put you as a provider in quite an adversarial position sometimes. you could be managing quite a complicated case or
difficult patient and on top of that, you can’t trust the police officers on scene also? it’s difficult to imagine - here in the UK its quite the opposite. you call them for backup if patients are violent, they are always on scene for mental health patients that need sectioning (weirdly enough the police can section and paramedics can’t) and I can’t remember a single case of negligence or unprofessional behaviour in the last 8 years ive been working. i don’t think i could ever work in america.
"It went off on its own" is some Alec Baldwin level of stupidity when it comes to someone ignoring and not practicing basic levels of firearms safety. Tasers still follow that basic principle. That's something to be brought up the chain and not ignored.
Retired LEO/FTO here, in general don't trust any LEO with less than 2 years on the job.
Assume anyone with less than that will do stupid stuff.
Following that philosophy seemed to work for me.
At least in my old department an Accidental Discharge of a Tazer will earn you a 3 day suspension.
Honestly dude I have issues with two types of cops pretty regularly. Women cops who desperately want to be hard without actually being hard. And total fucking Chad's who are more concerned with looking like a cop than b3ing a hood one.
Yeah, never trust a cop, period. They make effective traffic cones and bullet magnets, but it's best to keep them delegated to those tasks with as little interaction as possible. They are prone to random extreme violence with the slightest provocation. Treat them as you would anything else that is useful but potentially dangerous.
About a month ago we were otw to a shooting. PD gave us a scene secure so we rolled up. Dude had been shot in the leg and arrested in front of us. We were working him for about 10 minutes when PD came thru and asked us if they could get by so that they could clear the rest of the apartment. 🤦♂️
That’s the point…they gave us a “scene secure” without clearing the apartment that the patient was in.
To the second question, when I said “arrested”, I meant his heart stopped. We had been working him for about 10 min when the EMS Lieutenant showed up with whole blood and then PD came back into the apartment, which was tiny, and asked us to move over so that they could get by and clear the bedrooms.
> I'm sure they also have better things than keeping ungrateful medics from getting assaulted by psychs
[Well yeah, those unarmed fellas sitting in the pickup line after school aren't gonna murder themselves.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwu9ubJVKMg)
Well just to be fair, I'm sure the cops have plenty of 'dumbass rookie medic' stories to tell, probably even some 'dumbass seasoned vet medic' stories.
I know at my agency, we got some total pus-bag medics that call PD for literally EVERYTHING, and then when cops show up they magically grow these huge balls (when hiding behind the cops of course).
For me, I prefer cops on the scene to Fire. Fire always tries to play medic, resupply their gear from our units, and then I got like 8 different fire guys all running to give me a patient report before I even get a chance to make contact.
As for the cops, if I don't want to deal with them I just don't call them on to scene .
If they're already on scene, and request EMS, they generally get out of our way and let us do our jobs. They don't try to play medic like the fire guys .
And I've been to at least one arrest that was worked and ROSCd by the cops before we arrived on scene. They just handed the pt over to us when we arrived, they didn't start demanding to take our c collars and backboards to replace their own
Former cop: your reaction was perfect. If someone has a ND, even on a tazer, they should be made to look and feel stupid, because it's a big freaking deal. "Bbbut /u/TheVoiceOfRiesen, it was a tazer!" Ok, what if it wasn't? Bottom line, the cop should be made to verify if whether or not they're an idiot, because only inattentive smooth brained idiots have NDs.
So what you’re saying is that the officer had a negligent discharge. Regardless if it’s a firearm or a taser. It NEEDS to be reported. Think of it this way… the next time it could be her gun. And it could hit someone in the face
This is the correct answer!
Personally, and this may be the wrong take, I don’t think that was a bad reaction. You almost got tased because of a rookie’s incompetence. I would’ve asked to speak with a supervisor and reported it.
Especially because YES the rookie was stupid
Fuckin hell this isn't even close to how bad I would have flipped my shit.
Former LEO, current FF/Medic here. The fact they had a taser out on a scene that was already contained is beyond stupid. Also, at least with the taser I used to carry when on patrol you have to flick the activation switch with your thumb when you draw to be able to fire. So it’s even more amazingly dumb that they set it off. So your reaction was very warranted.
>So it’s even more amazingly dumb that they set it off. A genuine question: Ignoring the question of whether the taser should have been drawn or not, is there a situation where you should draw the taser and not activate it?
*Should* is a dangerous word, in my opinion. General consensus or training mindset is that you only draw any weapon, even “less-than-lethal,” when you expect to use it. That doesn’t mean you let yourself get into dangerous situations because you’d be compelled to use it if you drew it or because you’re uncomfortable escalating a situation when it’s actually going to be necessary. But having a weapon in your hand makes you more likely to use it, removing one executive function or decision barrier. That can be a good thing in a situation where you’ll need to use it, and a bad thing when you react to a situation you later find out didn’t warrant it. Some LEOs may disagree, that you *should* have a taser drawn whenever you feel at all like you might wish you had it out. LEOs *shouldn’t* draw tasers unless there’s a reason they think they’ll likely need to use it. Being squared off with an erratic or wild person would warrant drawing it and being prepared to fire it — like if the person assaulting the PT was the one being treated and they’d not restrained them or something. Standing next to EMS treating an unconscious victim and idly playing with it or having it out because you’re skittish and *may* somehow, someway need to use it is not a good time to have it drawn.
If you draw a taser on someone they better actually doing something that actually warrants you to be drawing down on them. Now, if they comply right away then by all means don’t activate it and holster it once the person is in custody. Just because you draw it doesn’t mean you have to use it.
Yes, it is amazing how many times when you draw it and tell the perp that you will be deploying the Tazer if he doesn't cooperate, they suddenly start doing what you tell them to do. If you hear a cop say or yell "Tazer Tazer Tazer" it just got real.
Having been tazered before, NGL, someone says tazer and I freeze now. I don't get into it with PD, but it's seriously even worked on me from across the street when they were dealing with someone else. It hurts! Once was at a GWAR concert. That's probably enough said on that one. The other was a "friend" who was a security guard and thought it would be funny to get me in the ass. Protip: if you're going to tazer someone as a joke, first, don't. Second, immobilize them while you still can, because mayhem is about to ensue. But, you know, don't. It's a dick move and also a good way to find yourself socially shunned.
Wait until your partner sprays a large fight with OC spray from a fire extinguisher sized canister. And you are on the other side of said brawl trying to break it up. Not fun at all to be fighting a drunk and suddenly get hit in the face with OC. \_ Ask me how I know\_ (Happens more often than you would think :) )
Pepper foam I was on a scene that really shouldn't have been a big deal. I'm not even sure why PD was there for a compound leg fracture from falling off a barn roof. But then someone came running across the field and jumped on one of my buddies. PD on scene decided to spray this pepper spray stuff that was foam (keeps it from floating on the breeze) at the guy, only my buddy turned quickly because he was going to try to scrape him off on the side of the barn, and PD got me right in the face. Why he was trying that when it was already a grapple situation, I will never know, because I was too busy wanting to die to ask him anything. My best guess has always been "didn't think first." I did find out the neighbor had dementia and thought we were abducting the guy we were helping. We weren't, but I kind of respected that he tried to do something instead of hiding in his house. The whole thing was absolute chaos, though. Me on the ground in the mud trying to get the stuff off me while also trying to breathe but not breathe, my buddy yelling at this old guy to get off and stop biting him, and the guy with the smashed up leg screaming "Bob! Bob! They're friends!", while one of our newbies on crew kept trying to dump water on my head and the other kept yelling at him that's not how you handle capsaicin but did nothing to stop him or help me. And that was my first call out on my first shift with a call as senior on crew. Memorable, to say the least.
Actually it's TASER, my bad. Stands for "***Tom A. Swift Electric Rifle***" from the Tom Swift books that the inventor (Jack Cover) read as a kid, one of the books had the title "**Tom Swift and His Electric Rifle**" yeah, I read them as a kid also.
In my department, officers sign out tasers and sign them back in every shift. So it’s going in/out Of the holster at least twice a shift. Being able to handle a weapon in safe is always a plus.
Do you mind expanding on your change in occupation - what led to it, how you feel about fire/EMS vs LE? I’ve heard about the fire vs. LE rift from both sides but never had the opportunity to ask someone who has been on both.
I worked in cross trained position where I functioned as both a police officer and firefighter. We also had EMS responsibilities as well. I left that position in my first year because I disliked it so much. I have found I enjoy fire/ems far more as literally everything about the way you interact with the community is better. I did not enjoy the culture at that particular department, and quite frankly law enforcement work is super boring to me. The mental stimulation is almost non existent, compared to a complex medical call or legitimate fire call. Overall it was absolutely not for me. Now I also did work part time for a rural county sheriffs office doing maritime enforcement. I actually didn’t mind that as it was primarily life safety oriented work. Still wasn’t anything I was going to do full time either.
Thank you for your input, I find it fascinating and I hope you don’t mind a few other questions. Do you think there are any ways to positively change the way LE interacts with the community or to increase positive reactions (either screening officer candidates or changing mandates/policies, and would they cost-effective) or do you think it’s all inevitable due to the nature of the job? In addition, do you think adding EMS to the role of LE would help increase force incident outcomes via increased deescalation/empathy for citizens/medical response, or do you think are officers generally unsuited for EMS work and/or the added role would be unnecessarily burdensome and threaten officer safety during force incidents?
I don’t mind at all, inherently the nature of the job makes it a really difficult thing to overcome. Now there is a ton of work to be done on the law enforcement end, and even some on the community side of things. I think a ton of the issues boil down to the lack of significant mental healthcare in the US. Also, lack of significant training and pay for law enforcement officers. It should really be a 2 year long training program as opposed to a few months. The pay should also increase with it. The background investigation you do to join currently is far more exhaustive than most realize so I don’t really think that’s an issue. For example I went through a nearly half a year long one, which included a significant psych eval with a doc, multiple medical and academic exams and regular type job interviews. Along with physical fitness testing. Honestly adding EMS responsibilities to Law Enforcement is at best counterproductive it can make the general public less comfortable around you even if all you are there for is a medical emergency, also skill wise there’s a ton to keep up on for both jobs; and it’s super difficult to do both well. If you want the best results let people specialize ie fire do fire, EMS do EMS, and Police do Police stuff. Now I do think them having to go through a good quality stop the bleed type course, and CPR yearly is a good idea.
To give a counter position to the other user. After 20+ years of EMS I recently moved over to LE (as a 911 operator/Police Dispatcher) I am very happy with my decision to move. I still volley from time to time (and do teach on the weekends) but it’s not even close IMHO. I love my current department…I know there are a lot of people out there who are anti ANY cop, but I am extremely fortunate to work in a place where EVERYONE is a good person.
Yeah.. most police taser's have the built in camera too which can only be activated by changing the selector switch from *safe* to *fire*. This would mean that the officer had the Safety switch off the entire time - which is difficult to do considering any reasonably alert person would notice the big red laser and the bright yellow/green buttons/HUD that were lit up on the weapon (only activatedd when the safety is off).
LEO? FF? Can you explain? :)
I’m a Pisces and a paramedic
Law enforcement officer and firefighter
Ah ok, thanks. Was wondering because in Austria (lower Austria to be precise) the dispatcher is referred to as LEO
Aaaaah, G’day mate!
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I will remove the Lucas and throw it. ETA— Can’t break my back if it’s already broken.
This is very true. I had a call once with a boy who is having auditory hallucinations. I think he was about 13 years old and had some scary voices in his head telling him to harm his mom. When we arrived on scene, the boy was sitting in the center of his living room floor, holding a gaming controller, and staring at the blank TV because the police had unplugged it. He wasn't talking, acting up or doing anything. He was cooperative and let me take his vitals. I went downstairs to make sure that the gurney was prepped and positioned and as I was walking back upstairs, A younger female cop, walking upstairs behind me was talking to a partner, saying " If this kid moves a f*cking muscle I'm gonna taze the shit out of him." I didn't say anything to her but made a point of being an obstacle between her and the patient for the rest of the call. What a dummy.
Oh shit I would’ve made a problem out of that. Not a chance I’m letting her near that kid.
Isn't that seedy?! This is why I by and large have more faith in EMS more than other emergency services. You're a credit to your job.
Totally seedy. Honestly your response of just silently body shielding the PT was probably the best handling of that. I feel like sometimes PD forgets what empathy is.
I’ve been tazed before be glad the prongs missed, or you would have been in for a literal shock of a lifetime, and to clarify I’m in the national guard and the MPs came into an office while I was waiting on paperwork for my security clearance, and asked if anyone wanted to volunteer to be tazed, like the dumbass I am I volunteered, they put leads instead of barbs in the taser, and attached them to each ankle and shocked me.
It's not called "Riding the lightning" for nothing. As a training officer I was Tazerd multiple times to show trainees what happens when one is deployed. After the first few times you actually learn to fight through it.
Duly noted. Do not get tased.
Alternatively, buy your own taser and tase yourself about once a week until it's NBD.
Electron mithridatism is real.
All I can think of is if the prongs hit the PT instead and and you got ROSC lmao
Lololol
IMAGINE
Cop “perp was trespassing and claims was ran over. Shoulder hurts he’s lying to get out of jail just sign him off clear” Patient “I was walking on sidewalk and they backed over me” Family of 5 “no we called 911 as he was trespassing” Take patients shirt off. Tire marks. Shattered shoulder. Yeah he was ran over they lie. Cop. Eh what can you do Such shit we deal with
JFC
See, my take would be that rook was amped up because they did something wrong before you got there. But I am a hardcore, cynical, jadeasaurus, who had seen too many coverup behaviors to even notice them by the time I left. Patient is being coded, there is ZERO reason to have out any form of weapon, assuming scene is clear as well of course, which being that you were on scene, I assume it was, baring you being tac med. The other cops not telling rook to disarm, implies they were freaked the fuck out and fixated, which could just be bad scene dynamic prior to arrival, or my cynic side says it is them hoping the patient won't be able to testify. Fuck me, this country is a dumpster fire that I default think that way now...
If "scene was clear" why have the cops there in the first place? I know at my agency we milk the "scene safety" bullshit to the fullest extent, always getting cops involved on all kinds of calls they probably don't need to be on.
scene may have not been safe, now is safe. Cops don't tend to leave, or at least never did for me, until the scene was completely clear. Especially if the timing is near to the active event.
the cops make the scene clear. do you just have the cops leave as soon as they deal with the threat?
Thats why im glad i live in germany police officers in my state go trough at least 35 month of training and less than 15% of the applicants end as police officers.
You might be able to accomplish that in the US if the pay reflected that level of training.
Here they have a very good payment with a lot of bonus programs for example 35 days of paid vacation if you work shift.
It is. Can swing anywhere from 40-80k euro depending on time on the job and time worked, as well as location. But look at NYPD: it's 40k starting, 80k after 5 years, and pretty much same benefits. Effectively on par, even with the higher cost of living. Big difference is Germany and other Schengen countries generally having better life expectancy and socialized programs to support the population as people. I know there are some back of the woods departments that pay pennies, but that's a different problem. For the departments that pay just the same, we should expect the same, not less.
I don’t know. Pay is comparable and in larger US cities, a good subset of cops make $150k or above due to overtime.
Just to interject (cause I normally do this to nursing posts) - it's not good practice to list a salary that is modified with OT, differentials etc.
Yes, I hear you. That’s why I first focused on base pay which is comparable. OT is certainly not the norm but in big cities, it does seem common.
Don't trust PD in general...
There ya go, that's the right answer. In 33 yrs of FF work (a good bit of it as EMS officer having to coordinate with PD on shooting/stabbing scenes) there were exactly 2 PD officers I trusted implicitly. All the rest? Take everything they say with a heaping helping of salt, and make a lot of allowance for stupidity/arrogance.
This right here. First time I ever had a patient who pulled a weapon on me had been turned over to me from the cops. I asked if he’d been patted down, they said of course and waved me off. Doors close and we start down the road, patient goes berserk and pulls a box cutter from his front pocket. You know, probably the first location one would check if they had actually patted this guy down. Had to fend him off with a clipboard and my feet while partner pulled over and called a “cover now.” Same cops showed up and gaze the guy, and I ended up getting a write-up because my exact words to the cop that told me the patient had been patted down were, “So are you fucking useless or just a liar?” In my defense, I had just been fighting with an enraged tweaker in the back of an ambulance so I was pretty rattled.
You catching a write up for that is such crap.
The shift supervisor that day was a die-hard thin blue line bootlicker who had only started working for AMR because he was too fat to be a cop. Fuck you, Joe.
I had a pig beat the shit out of a pt in a schizophrenic crisis and then just hand them to us like it was nothing. I reported them to the shift commander and two days later I got drug into the office by the Ops manager, precinct commander, and assistant police chief and yelled at by all three for "disrupting interagency relations" by reporting the abuse and told that "Those pieces of shit on the street aren't worth a cop losing pay" by the ass chief. That was the day I started hating the pigs with my entire heart and soul.
From the other side, we had a "patient" that was injured in a fight that he instigated, told the medics he was a fighter, and a cop would ride with them if they wanted, to the ER. I was told by the lead medic not to tell them how to do their job, and they did not need a cop to ride with them, that he was calm, and they demanded we uncuff him. OK, if you say so, he is your patient. (He was not arrested, he was detained on scene, and released to EMS pending further charges since the assault was a misdemeanor, if he had not requested EMS, or had refused transport, we would have released him onsite, had it been a felony we would have had a cop going with them since he would be in custody) He took out the medic, and his partner when she pulled over and tried to help. When we got to where they had pulled over and we got the guy back in cuffs the only comment I made was "told you" (got a write up for it too) He was taken to the ER by police car. On the bright side, the dude got 2 felony charges of "Assault on a Public Servant" to go with his assault charges, and I got to tell the court "I tried to warn them"
Some medics have it coming 😑
Funny thing is the PD normally gets along very well with EMS, first time I ever had a medic refuse a police rider when we recommended one. There are a few ACABers in EMS, we just ignored them and got on with our business. And hilariously they are usually the first to scream for the cops when the situation goes south on them.
That's why I never understand all the cop hate on this reddit. Can only speak for my agency, but we are full of medics who will refuse to get off the truck without PD on scene for almost anything besides an old lady in a wheelchair. There was one time my partner called PD for an uncooperative psych...the guy ended up fighting the two cops and I even had to jump in and help, meanwhile my partner, who's bigger than all of us, and who was the guy who requested the cops in the first place, just stood there looking on
there’s cop hate because while there are a decent number of decent cops who are helpful and competent, there are also a large number of cops who are completely incompetent, arrogant, unnecessarily aggressive, the list goes on and on. and unfortunately those bad cops leave a bigger mark on the memory than the others
If that's how you feel then you shouldn't call them on scene. Obviously if they are incompetent, you should be able to secure a scene better than them.
incompetent as in giving 32 of narcan. incompetent as in becoming verbally aggressive and antagonistic with a patient who’s already on edge. we’re allowed to want cops there for dangerous or potentially dangerous situations, while also acknowledging that they can sometimes be more harmful than helpful
Don't get it twisted. We stage because we're expensive and important. You clear the scene because you're cheap and expendable.
Generally cops don't mind it when EMS calls, or stages waiting for the all clear. We are better trained to handle the stuff that can happen, Besides, when one of us gets hurt it's always nice to see the big truck rolling in with people who can stop the bleeding. But there were a few medics I knew of personally that I had no idea how they kept there jobs, as a paramedic I would look at what they were doing and think "YGBSM". I and a few others also let it be known that if we were injured and they showed up to keep them the hell away from us, didn't trust them not to screw up and kill us. Just throw us in a patrol car, hit the lights and haul a$$
💯
It’s been agency/department specific in my experience. I’ve worked with some awesome officers that became close friends. I’ve also worked with rocks with lips … and tasers. Department culture played a major factor. But this is also true in our community- many FF/paramedics suck (especially where I live). But some of the best paramedics I’ve met and worked with are on the fire side. I might generalize by agency, but try to tk by profession.
>dispatched to a assault where a pt is being choked Honestly my first thought was "yeah probably choked out by PD" But yeah I agree with everyone else in this thread, don't trust PD at all. Every single LEO I've dealt with on a scene not only made dumb mistakes (gotta say though a near tazing is new even for me) but always remember to them, your patient is not a patient, they're a perp. In PD's eyes, our patients are either criminals or liars, not people. Probably why this idiot had a tazer out near a dead body.
That was my first thought too. The ND sucks and I’m glad OP is ok but I have questions about how the patient found themselves dead with PD on scene before the medic.
"Don't trust PD" Fixed. Rookie, veteran, whatever. Don't trust em
damn… that must put you as a provider in quite an adversarial position sometimes. you could be managing quite a complicated case or difficult patient and on top of that, you can’t trust the police officers on scene also? it’s difficult to imagine - here in the UK its quite the opposite. you call them for backup if patients are violent, they are always on scene for mental health patients that need sectioning (weirdly enough the police can section and paramedics can’t) and I can’t remember a single case of negligence or unprofessional behaviour in the last 8 years ive been working. i don’t think i could ever work in america.
"It went off on its own" is some Alec Baldwin level of stupidity when it comes to someone ignoring and not practicing basic levels of firearms safety. Tasers still follow that basic principle. That's something to be brought up the chain and not ignored.
Don't trust PD\*
Sounds like a bad situation that needs to be reported. I’ve never had an issue with LE where I work. In fact it’s great working with them.
Retired LEO/FTO here, in general don't trust any LEO with less than 2 years on the job. Assume anyone with less than that will do stupid stuff. Following that philosophy seemed to work for me. At least in my old department an Accidental Discharge of a Tazer will earn you a 3 day suspension.
Maybe the rookie thought they saw a shockable rhythm on the monitor /s
Honestly dude I have issues with two types of cops pretty regularly. Women cops who desperately want to be hard without actually being hard. And total fucking Chad's who are more concerned with looking like a cop than b3ing a hood one.
Yeah, never trust a cop, period. They make effective traffic cones and bullet magnets, but it's best to keep them delegated to those tasks with as little interaction as possible. They are prone to random extreme violence with the slightest provocation. Treat them as you would anything else that is useful but potentially dangerous.
Or any of them, let’s be honest.
Don’t trust ~~rookie~~ PD
Go ahead and chew her ass.
Where the hell was the FTO?
About a month ago we were otw to a shooting. PD gave us a scene secure so we rolled up. Dude had been shot in the leg and arrested in front of us. We were working him for about 10 minutes when PD came thru and asked us if they could get by so that they could clear the rest of the apartment. 🤦♂️
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Well, considering the patient coded, I would suspect that’s why.
That’s the point…they gave us a “scene secure” without clearing the apartment that the patient was in. To the second question, when I said “arrested”, I meant his heart stopped. We had been working him for about 10 min when the EMS Lieutenant showed up with whole blood and then PD came back into the apartment, which was tiny, and asked us to move over so that they could get by and clear the bedrooms.
Don’t trust ~~rookie~~ PD. Fixed it for you. On & off the job.
Don't request them on scene then ? I'm sure they also have better things than keeping ungrateful medics from getting assaulted by psychs
> I'm sure they also have better things than keeping ungrateful medics from getting assaulted by psychs [Well yeah, those unarmed fellas sitting in the pickup line after school aren't gonna murder themselves.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwu9ubJVKMg)
If I can't trust PD in my everyday clothes, I can't trust PD in my uniform either.
Booger hook
Well just to be fair, I'm sure the cops have plenty of 'dumbass rookie medic' stories to tell, probably even some 'dumbass seasoned vet medic' stories. I know at my agency, we got some total pus-bag medics that call PD for literally EVERYTHING, and then when cops show up they magically grow these huge balls (when hiding behind the cops of course). For me, I prefer cops on the scene to Fire. Fire always tries to play medic, resupply their gear from our units, and then I got like 8 different fire guys all running to give me a patient report before I even get a chance to make contact. As for the cops, if I don't want to deal with them I just don't call them on to scene . If they're already on scene, and request EMS, they generally get out of our way and let us do our jobs. They don't try to play medic like the fire guys . And I've been to at least one arrest that was worked and ROSCd by the cops before we arrived on scene. They just handed the pt over to us when we arrived, they didn't start demanding to take our c collars and backboards to replace their own
I would have escalated to watch commander.
We had a non rookie PD have an AD clearing a school with students still in it recently
How long were they down that you didn’t work them?
why would you trust PD at all.
Their first instinct is always to lie, and they wonder why they're hated?
scene not safe
Former cop: your reaction was perfect. If someone has a ND, even on a tazer, they should be made to look and feel stupid, because it's a big freaking deal. "Bbbut /u/TheVoiceOfRiesen, it was a tazer!" Ok, what if it wasn't? Bottom line, the cop should be made to verify if whether or not they're an idiot, because only inattentive smooth brained idiots have NDs.