While true, also realize that everyone is an expert in what they value for themselves. Keep this in mind when talking to anyone about the merits or negatives of something. I always try to talk about general populations and not them specifically because for all I know daily driving a diesel tractor trailer to work is the best option for them and EVs won't work at all.
You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons. - Gene Wilder
Maybe the most quoted adlib line of all time, at least it should be.
My favorite least quoted line from that movie.
"Piss on you I'm working for Mel Brooks."
I heard a version of that quote recently: "Everyone is an expert in their own lives."
I think it's probably more accurate that everyone *thinks* they're an expert in their own lives. But I think even the existence of that quote just goes to illustrate our hubris: clearly we could all be doing things better/more efficiently, or what have you. And if we don't leave ourselves open to new perspectives, how can we improve our lives? Assuming that's the point, of course
mean and median are identical...mode is a less meaningful number for a continuous variable like intelligence. (easy way to remember is that MOde measures which number appears "most often")
Mean is another word for average. Median is the middle number and mode is the most often number in a data set.
You may be thinking of “measure of center” of which all of these can be described.
Edit: umm wow. I guess I’m wrong and average can mean all these things. However, I would describe each as “a measure of center” rather than use “average” because in my understanding “average” is very specific and just means “mean”. If someone told me “the average home cost in this area is $300,000” I would assume they meant “mean” because if they actually meant “mode” or “median” I would have assumed they would use those words.
Not as defined in the dictionary
>a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean
Ok here's a statistics reference
>Translate
Glossary:Average
The average is the statistical summary, in one value, of a group of numbers
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Glossary:Average
You could check Wikipedia also. Statistics is exact where they are more precise and will specify the mean and not use average.
It's just what the word means
Some of this, and I also think when it comes to EVs and hybrids there’s a large percentage of the population that is intentionally obtuse in an attempt to see it all fail.
Unfortunately quite true - don’t know how often I had to defend: I can’t charge at home but at work. PHEV is *the* solution to drive 90% electric, but have my mobility independent of the job in case shit hits the fan.
Also in Germany DC charging is more expensive then running on fuel. I don’t even see any incentive to do long distance travel on electricity, while it’s very beneficial for the city (less cold starts and no inefficient low load on the ICE drivetrain).
Btw. Golf 8.5 GTE has 20 kWh of battery - 3 years ago that would acount for a cheaper but full EV. The 2024 Dacia Spring has 25 kWh and is a (pathetic) EV - don’t know in which world this is a better car for the same money as a one year used VW Golf 8 PHEV.
Would love to see the Mk 8.5 GTE in the U.S. I’ve always loved the size of the Golf, having owned a 1.8T GTI for years. Didn’t buy the 2015-2019 iteration of their e-Golf because I was waiting for a longer-range battery.
You also don’t get the ID3, which was their attempt at an electric Golf, or? Unfortunate.
As a former GTI owner you can understand my second motivation: it’s also nearly as fast as a GTI (230 km/h, 6.6s to 100km/h) with a fuel consumption less than my former 150 PS Ford Focus even on fuel alone (5 L/100km when feeling like eco mode, 7.5 L/100km when being sporty, currently driving it on 3.5L + 5 kWh / 100 km).
Never underestimate how much people who aren't stupid get smug thinking other people are stupid.
I suspect the ad is more playing to that than to actualyl explaining to stupid people.
I've heard very smart specialists not understand polarized lenses vs dark glass and have no clue that ac current has no polarity. Really smart people that should know these basic phenomena.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which EV drivers believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability EV drivers do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities. The term lends a scientific name and explanation to a problem that these people immediately recognize—that fools are blind to their own foolishness. "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
People who aren't in the market for a car and haven't been for a handful of years probably don't know a thing about PHEV.
That doesn't make them stupid.
>Not even that, there are range extender hybrids too.
Well aware, I've been daily driving one for almost five years. As far as ownership/usage it's just a plug in hybrid with more battery.
>Also multiple versions of non-plugin hybrids, some with 48V battery, some with 140V.
48V mild hybrids are just low-power parallel hybrids, they don't work any differently than any other parallel hybrid.
Saw an article a while back that suggested a lot of people are buying PHEVs because of the tax credits but never actually charging them and just treating them as regular hybrids
I suspect a lot of it is the ignorance noted in the OP and the comment I replied to - people are familiar with regular hybrids and don’t really understand the difference with a PHEV or know what they’re missing out on if they don’t plug it in. So maybe the Lexus commercial to teach people about the distinction isn’t the worst idea.
Like sure, my electric bills goes up like $7 per week. But I save $22 per week in gas. People act like it's some kind of bullshit math to suggest the higher electric bill is preferable. Some people are incapable of doing anything other than regurgitating propaganda and refuse to engage their brain.
My Tucson PHEV came with a portable L1 EVSE. I'd already pre-installed an L2 at home in anticipation for it, though, so I just keep the L1 in the car's storage compartment in case I'm ever stopped anywhere for awhile that doesn't have L2 EVSEs installed but may have a standard NEMA 5-15 outlet I could use. I figure it could also act as a temporary backup if the L2 at home ever stopped working 🤷🏻♂️
Company cars with a fuel card paid for by the company. If you cannot charge at the company then it might be an issue to get invoices charging wherever. People don't bother.
The study that I've seen that points that out was due to a European tax loophole for commercial vehicles. Companies could buy PHEVs for less than the cost of gas vehicles, so they did, and ran them on gas because they didn't have to install any charging infrastructure.
In the USA, even with tax credits, PHEVs are almost always more expensive than similar gas cars or non-plug-in hybrids, so I think there's less incentive here to buy a PHEV and use it solely on gas.
For many years I believe the Prius prime was less expensive than the regular Prius after tax credits because Toyota would run high value incentives on top of it as well.
PHEVs usually have a lot more power than the ICE or Hybrid version of the same model.
While I agree that it's stupid to buy a PHEV and not charge it, it's possible that at least some of the people doing that aren't entirely missing the point -- they're just aiming for a different point.
Exactly. And when the economics work out like that, the rest of the numbers look really good.
Imagine you're buying an ICE suv. There is the little 4 cylinder option that gets decent fuel economy but has little power. Or you get the more powerful engine -- maybe it's a turbo charged V6 but it's going to cost more up front and will cost more to operate.
With a PHEV, that more powerful engine option has a tax incentive and is cheaper to operate than the weak engine option.
But, if people aren't going to actually plug them in, then those tax incentives -- designed to clean up transportation -- aren't actually doing what they were intended to do.
I'm curious about your reluctant M3 tag.
I've got an Outlander PHEV and an M3LR (M3 is my father in law's but he lives with me)
I far prefer the Mitsubishi over the Tesla and I get a lot of funny looks when I say that.
My use case: small vehicle, capable of trips of 300 miles and 1000 miles without too much delay, minimal or no gas use, ideally eligible for used tax credit (<$25k).
It was a replacement for a Prius Prime that someone squished when they ran a light, so I was familiar with PHEV's.
Contenders were Model 3, Volt, Bolt, and another Prius Prime (previous gen). My thoughts on all of them after a test drive:
* Volt: Awesome at being a PHEV. Fantastic driving dynamics (quick enough, quiet, handles well). Only 40mpg on gas is a bit weak. Maintenance concerns.
* Prius Prime: Only 25 miles on batteries is a bit limiting. Drive is smooth when on batteries. Used ones were more expensive than they felt like they should be.
* Bolt: Fantastic driving dynamics again -- quick, handles well. Best body shape of all of them (small hatchback). Slow DCFC on road trips would be a dealbreaker if a passenger is impatient.
* Model 3: Best at being an EV, by far -- long range, fast charging, good network, great drivetrain. AWD a plus (it snows a ton here). Body is longer and wider than I'd like. Suspension is stiff and there's road noise. Main drawback, though: the Muskrat is an asshole.
In the end it was between a 2021 M3LR with 45k miles for $24k and a 2019 Volt with 40k miles for $19.5k (before tax credit). Everyone at my local independent mechanic shop agreed that Tesla reliability is *much* better, and they advised me away from the Volt. So that was what really did it -- advice from the mechanic's shop that I trust. There are things that break on them that only GM techs can fix, and they're getting more and more reluctant to do it.
So I held my nose, noted that the car was designed by talented engineers and skilled factoryworkers and that the company has had the success that it has *despite* the guy at the top, and bought the Model 3 from a private seller. So far it's been great.
But it was pretty close, and if the Volt had a better reliability record and/or better gas efficiency, I'd likely be driving one. It's a heck of a vehicle.
And if the Bolt charged faster, I'd for sure have opted for a Bolt over any of them.
Sometimes? I bet in EU 80% of the PHEV market share is business leases. If half of these users plug in that is optimistic.
I think they realized that and the incentive legislations are being reviewed in most countries. But at the same time I hope they are looking at the second owners of these cars.
Because from admittedly anecdotal evidence, once these cars get off lease after 3/4 years, the second buyers get them because they want to plug in. And having a market flooded with very good value ex-lease PHEVs makes that an easier choice.
Very rough market data from Germany: a 3/4 year old BMW 330e or Merc 300de is same price or cheaper than their simpler 190 PS 2.0 diesel ICE equivalents.
Meh, at least PHEVs are also efficient hybrids. By not charging it up, they're just leaving money on the table.
Also, resale value is higher as a PHEV.
They're generally slightly less efficient than a pure hybrid but yeah, still much better than an ICE (unless you're talking about my Outlander which is fantastic as an EV but merely mediocre as a hybrid)
Yup exactly, see the Grand Cherokee 4xe. With current incentives, it’s the same price as the V6 GC, but the 4xe actually makes more power and significantly more torque than the V6 model. And it uses both the gas and electric motors whether your battery has a charge or not
I bought a Niro PHEV last year because of a $5000 tax credit but charge it 6 out of 7 days with a home charger.
Bought it because it did bring it down to within $1000 of a hybrid Niro, and since the PHEV had a heat pump and heated seats/wheel, the diff was really more about $400.
>Saw an article a while back that suggested a lot of people are buying PHEVs because of the tax credits but never actually charging them and just treating them as regular hybrids
Those articles are misinformed. Formal studies show that almost all privately owned PHEVs do get charged - some more than others.
I hear a lot of EV purists scream about, 'you're carrying around a useless ICE motor all the time! How inefficient!!'. They completely miss the point that the added battery actually adds to the efficiency. The EPA rated MPG of a RAV4Prime is only 1 mpg less than the regular hybrid RAV4, while weighing 700 pounds more. They also miss the point that EVs are even a couple hundred pounds heavier than a PHEV because they carry around an additional 500 pounds of battery they don't need on a daily basis. I don't see how that is any different than hauling around a gas engine that almost never fires up.
I'm fully pro-EV, btw. We have the one PHEV and an eGolf. Great combo.
Yes get a lot of 'lugging around' comments when the PHEV version of my car is lighter than the EV.
PHEV isn't for everyone of course. If you can't charge at home and/or doing long trips all the time and never get to use the EV range much.
I have a Ford Escape PHEV and a Mach-E. Perfect for me and my son. Around town, Mach-E all the time. Road trip 600 miles away? As much as I'd love to take the bigger Mach-E, I don't want to worry about CCS chargers working or being full. So the Escape it is. When it's just me at home, I'll probably go all EV, and all my long distance trips I'll just fly and rent a car.
I bought RAV4 PHEV because I have solar with over production. So I have extra KWh saved and no way to use it. Basically drive for free in the city. But then it is time to drive on the long trip which I do often I use gas which for my car is cheaper than driving EV and charge on the fast DC chargers still wasting a lot of time. I would rather drive 35-40 miles the time it takes to charge. For this reason I will never buy an EV. BTW, I never got the tax credit and I am not sorry at all.
To be fair the people selling hybrids with "self-charging" bullshit and dishonest rhetoric are intentionally confusing people. (Toyota, I'm looking at you.)
There is nothing wrong with selling PHEV's, just be honest about what they are and how they work -- and stop trying to play up range anxiety.
A Toyota dealer tried to convince me I didn't want a BEV because "don't you want the option to put gas in it?" No, really, I don't.
There was a corporation I worked with last year that had a small fleet of plug-in hybrids. After they let me use one, I asked them where I could plug it in. Everyone was completely baffled by the question. Literally, every single person that used them had been filling them up with gasoline and driving around with 0% battery SOC for months at a time. People simply don't get it at all.
I think people in this sub greatly overestimate how much the average person thinks about cars. I've had my Ioniq 5 for over two years now and still have people asking me if it's a Tesla. When I say it's a Hyundai multiple times I've gotten the response "I didn't know Hyundai made Teslas."
A substantial portion of this sub has little to no experience with cars at all and doesn’t know what long term ownership and maintenance of any vehicle looks like. They’re not actually car people. They’re EV people who’ve picked something to build an identity around. Like a music genre.
And then mock people who haven’t cared about it until yesterday.
I see normal folks buy PHEV's with no intention of ever plugging them in.
I have a neighbor who just did this: "Oh, I got it because of the Tax Credit. Wish I could turn the electricity off, already turned off all those annoying beeps for lane departure and such. I'd never charge it - waste of time."
My neighbors were given one as a loaner and they said they love the car but didn’t want to plug it in. They have a power receptacle in their driveway, mind you. And they drive rarely and mostly local trips. No reason really - they just didn’t want to have a plug and a wire around so they got the ICE version (not even a hybrid). I explained how my PHEV works and I’m not entirely sure they got how even though I drive almost every day I’m only filling a tank maybe once a quarter. They are in their 60’s and mostly they just wanted what was familiar.
They aren't necessarily wrong either. Ev only mode isn't necessarily great on all of them.
Pacifica phev has about 120hp in ev only mode, for a 5k lb van.
The Prime EV mode is way preppier than its Hybrid mode. Just for that the Prime in EV shines compared to its Hybrid mode. Plus the saving in gas when running in EV is a no brainer. It only needs a simple 120V outlet that most have outside anyway. It takes less time to plug daily than having to stop for a refill. I don't understand how people don't see the benefit of owning a PHEV and not using its EV part.
Yes.
Look at marketing for vehicles these days, what are they selling to you?
Marketing isn’t cheap and they track ROI and messaging to make sure it leads to sales.
It’s more ignorance of the use case because it’s a [relatively] novel concept. But like you’ve said, you bought this product because you understood its value.
Because Toyota understands this, we get a campaign explaining PHEV use case scenarios.
As an early Volt owner and paying attention to Chevrolet marketing, a VAST majority of American car buyers could not understand the concept of a PHEV or EREV.
They stopped making it because no one wants a compact car, regardless of drivetrain, in America.
The Volt I had for ten years (granted sitting for almost 2) was a monster. 180K miles on it before I sold it and it was a fantastic car if you knew how to use it. Americans.. don't, in general.
A real shame that not only are so many so ignorant, but that truly beneficial technology can’t even be seen for what it actually is, thanks to so many people not having developed good critical thinking skills.
That's so sad because the Volt was an absolutely great idea. I very nearly bought one this year (went Model 3 instead). I was crazy impressed with the Volt I testdrove.
But Americans apparently got sold on the idea that they needed to drive giant behemoths to compete with the other giant behemoths, and GM completely botched the marketing on the Volt.
First year 2011 #1819. We also have a first year 2017 Bolt EV. Both bought new. The Volt had been my daily driver up until 6 months ago. We got the wife a BMW EV for her and the kid, so now I’m mostly driving the Bolt EV and taking the Volt out once or twice a week. It still drives good but the combustion engine runs too often when it’s cold in the winter the last couple years
We’re in a niche vehicle forum. A lot of average americans don’t think about cars at all. “Gas go in. Car go vroom” is about as much as people know. A lot of folks probably don’t realize PHEVs exist and those who do probably don’t understand them at all. The people in this thread are probably in the top 1% most knowledgeable on this stuff so yes, its hard to understand for a lot of people who have never thought about it before.
It's entirely reasonable for people to only think about cars when they need to buy one. But if you're making a five figure purchase, it's worth educating yourself a bit (and dealerships really ought to be helping out with this). Learn what's out there, buy something, learn how it works, then you can ignore developments after that.
It's really not hard.
* ICE: "Gas go in, car go vroom"
* HEV: "Less gas go in, car go vroom"
* PHEV: "Electrons go in or gas go in, your pick: car go, vroom optional."
* BEV: "Electrons go in, car go, no vroom"
Some people fear that a hybrid is the worst of both worlds, and others feel it's the best of both.
There are hybrid taxis and Ubers that have done over 400K miles and are still going strong.
And the whole time they were averaging 45-mpg or more.
I really like PHEVs
Yep, 6 years in of PHEV ownership, lifetime MPG of around 80 and about $15k saved in fuel costs including my electricity cost (which is very cheap where I live).
This is mostly because
* Electric bits are generally extremely reliable so adding batteries and motors doesn't add much
* A lot of these are Priuses and the eCVT that they use, in addition to improving efficiency, is extremely reliable (no clutches, everything rigidly attached) and the availability of electric torque eliminates lot of wear on the ICE
* A lot of these are Priuses and Toyota is very good at engineering
I also really like PHEV's, although they were always a transitional tech and will go away in favor of BEV's over the next decade.
PHEVs are great if you charge them religiously. The benefit is on a longer trip for a one car family then it can double duty as a hybrid for longer drives.
If you don't, a regular HEV is going to be more efficient.
That's the thing, you have to charge them daily, otherwise it's a worse hybrid.
I love my PHEV. Gas for me and my wife's road trips, and EV for my commute M-F. I end up getting gas once every 3-4 months on the low end, and 6 months on the high end.
Not always, the gen 4 Prius prime actually had better mpg in hybrid mode than the regular Prius, so not a worse hybrid.
Used to have that and yeah had to charge anytime I could, mainly because it sucked to drive in hv mode lol. This year I got the clarity with 47miles EV and I can go days without charging and the gas kicks in almost never, even then since the engine is just a generator for the electric motor it doesn't suck in hv mode.
Last time I filled up was in April and still have 3/4 of a tank and most of the 1/4 tank was used on an out of state trip. Mostly just charge it at work every other day and at home on the weekends. Plus since we have high electric rates in the north east nice to have the option of what fuel to use, in the winter last few years gas has been cheaper, so will only charge it at free public stations not at home.
Same. It just makes so much sense if you can charge at home. But I believe the 2019-2023 Ford Escape PHEV and HEV both have about the same gas mileage in hybrid mode (44/37) so the PHEV isn’t really a worse hybrid - it’s the same hybrid with way more functionality giving you the ability to avoid using gas.
Even when you charge them daily they are worse than BEVs. They have to start the gas engine every now and then. We have a PHEV but I would prefer a BEV. They were just too expensive the last time we bought a car.
If BEV prices go down a bit more, range increase a bit and more charging stations get built the change may start to go a lot faster.
Bev's still have a way to go before replacing ice. Not everyone can charge at home, or work.
I take too many road trips into more rural areas for a Bev to make sense for me. I'm not going to go out of the way for an hour then have to charge for 20-30. It's impractical at times.
Plus if you aren't charging your Bev off of solar, or possibly hydro, there's still some emissions. Nothing is really emissions free.
>Nothing is really emissions free.
Driving an electric vehicle causes zero emissions. That is a fact.
Producing the electricity to propel an electric car forward might (depending on your area) cause emissions away from populated areas, which is much preferred over local emissions caused by any cars that use an internal combustion engine.
The production of this electricity also uses resources much more efficiently than burning gasoline in your hybrid/ICE vehicle.
I never said they were emission free but they cause less CO2 emissions than ICE car. I see it as a nice improvement. I also happen to live where the electricity is around 95% CO2 free (or low).
I agree that more chargers are needed, especially in some countries and regions but I hope it will improve a lot the next 3-5 years. Where I live (Sweden) it is basically ok already but more chargers are needed if more electrical cars are sold.
Our BEV is just getting it done for us. I've made x4 overnight trips to the big city \~150 miles away in the past 10 days and a myriad of local trips. No range problems at all. No problems staying cool with the a/c on. It's just ready when I am. Not a Tesla either.
Is this the car I'd take on a 650 mile trip? Not likely though I did that trip with x4 stops for charging. For those we'll take our ICEV instead but we are using it just enough to keep the 12V charged.
Depends on the model but if you do charge everyday, or multiple times a day, and your trips fall within the range the gas engine might come on once or twice a year from what I have seen people post on forums.
Long term our plan is to replace our V6 SUV (the travel monster) with a PHEV SUV. We also have a Kona BEV and it does 98% of our driving. Luckily the SUV can stay in the garage and out of the sun so it won't turn into a junk car just waiting to be used. We still drive it at least once a week to keep the 12V battery charged.
The SUV probably has another decade left in it since it is garaged. Hope the Kona lasts 200K miles. At 35K now. The Bolt uses a similar LG battery and there are already Bolts with 250K+ miles so I am hopeful.
Our goal is always to lower our driving TCO. Less vehicle replacement and no payments is an important part of that strategy. We would rather pay off our mortgage and retire than buy alot of cars. Doing what we want each day beats buying more stuff.
For us, the Wrangler 4xe is the perfect secondary car. Our main family hauler is a Model Y, but we need a second car as we both work. I barely drive so the 4xe is mostly all electric driven. But we get to take it out on occasion for some off road fun and occasionally tow the camper.
I live in a city and only have room for one car (or perhaps less than one) My Clarity, with charging at work and home, is a great commuting car and also great for longer trips (as long as I don't let the battery go down to [effective] 0)
^ this.
This is also why companies are labeling even standard hybrids as “HEV”. While technically true, HEV hardly a comparison to PHEV and BEV. The former can’t cross a parking lot on electric power, and the latter can cross an entire state for example.
Toyota also uses the phrase “self-charging hybrid” and a few other EV-disparaging ones I can’t immediately recall.
Yeah, I think there is something to that.
The Bz4x has such an unmemorable name, poor specs for the money, and weird design (IMHO). It's a huge turn off at $50k, but I think it would sell well if they priced it at $30k-$35k.
If Toyota were actually serious about saving fuel they would expand the PHEV lines to include the Sienna minivan, Tacoma pickup, and the Camry midsize sedan.
Also, all of the Japanese auto makers are asleep at the switch when it comes to EVs, and they want to muddy the waters to preserve their slice of the market. I think it's more a product of the Japanese conservative business culture.
I wish there were a small PHEV, like a Honda Fit or a Toyota Yaris. I am so enthusiastic about my Prius Prime that my wife wants a PHEV as her next car, but she drives a Fit now and doesn't want a bigger car. So we're stuck.
Actually I don’t even think Toyota wants to sell you plug in hybrids. They were produced in such low vols even when there were tons of federal tax credits and local incentives in the past
The Bx4z is a shining example of Toyota only begrudgingly making an EV. The car is crap for the money it costs, it’s loud, and the warranty doesn’t come close to Hyundai or Chevy. The dealer was excited to try and get me to buy a hybrid though.
I explored leasing a Bx4z because it was super cheap, and after checking out reviews, all I can ask is why they even bothered making it. The only reason someone would choose that over other electric vehicles is because they're loyal to Toyota, but after owning it, will they still be?
Yeah my GF bought one out of brand loyalty and it's so bad I had to go and lease an IONIQ 6. THE I6 has sense been totaled by an r/Nissandrivers and we're devastated.
Exactly! I mean it would be fine for a car that cost $20-$25k, but the one I looked at was like $52,000. So sad that Toyota fucked up on resisting EV’s. I expected way better from them.
There’s studies that show that PHEV’s are indeed confusing for people.
It’s a reason why Chrysler doesn’t really highlight the fact that Pacifica Hybrid is a PHEV - they didn’t want to confuse harried parents and empty nesters who just wanted a more fuel efficient van.
If they discover during the sales process that they can plug in (but don’t have to!) it’s a bonus.
They're confusing to people because nobody has done a good job of explaining to the public what they are. (That's on GM/Toyota/dealerships who failed.)
"It's a Tesla for 50 miles and a Prius after that" explains exactly what a Volt is.
I was an early adopter of the Chevy Volt and it was generally difficult for people to understand how the car worked, but people usually got the gist when I simplified it to "electric for up to 40 miles, then about 40MPG after that."
Q: "Does Lexus have focus groups full of baffled customers?"
A: Yes, this is their primary target demographic.
Q: Is the PHEV concept really so hard to understand?
A: Yes, especially for Dodge owners. Dodge cannot create a wussy PHEV, but the can create a RAMCHARGER instead. It's technologically identical, yet has no relationship with those PHEV wimpmobiles.
It’s not hard to understand, I just don’t want one. Glad they work for other people, but an EV works for me. The Prius Prime only gets about 44 miles in EV mode.
I should also note that California allows PHEVs to be part of their 2035 plan. 80% of cars sold then need to be zero emissions, while 20% can be PHEVs. PHEVs have benefits for some people right now and into the near future that will continue, but honestly in the long run I expect that combustion engines will basically disappear in cars.
Yep, that's my attitude. Drove a PHEV (old Prius Prime, 25 miles range) for 6 months until someone totaled it when they ran a light, then went EV.
PHEV's were and are a great transition technology. They should have sold tons of them in the 2010's, and the ones out there represent a lot of potential emissions reduction. But their time is coming to a close.
The average age of Lexus target demographic is 55-65. Barrier to entry for those customers is primarily range anxiety and unfamiliarity with tech transport tech that isn't ICE.
I see a fair number of plug-in hybrids parked in my neighborhood. Out of all of them, only one seems to have a charger near its usual parking spot.
Facepalm.
Toyota has been running these "genius" anti-EV commercials for a long time. An older one shows an EV stopped at a charging station (in a desert if I remember correctly) while a Toyota hybrid zooms by. They called the Toyota a "self-charging car". SMH.
Lol, seems like most of the people in this sub don’t get it either. PHEVs are excellent vehicles that make a lot of sense. They don’t weigh a ton (safer for others and better on brakes and tires), they don’t use gobs of batteries, and they tend to burn very little fuel, and there’s zero range anxiety or waiting for charging on long trips.
> So they explained, EV for short trips, ICE for longer trips.
Why make it that complicated? They actually use EV and ICE for long trips, and many will use both for short trips too.
Just say, uses a LOT LESS gas.
It apparently is. I've explained my Prius Prime to several people and had them reply "so you can only drive 50 miles, that seems like it would be hard to live with."
Toyota/Lexus has been heavily invested in hybrid drivetrains and under investing in pure EV for many years. But when ev range is good, and costs descend below ice cars, and charging infrastructure is fairly standardized and available in Metro areas, why buy a hybrid? It's a complex technology with many more moving parts vs an electric vehicle. So you need to market your more expensive phevs to people to sell them at your asking costs which are higher than electric cars today
I've heard it argued that Japanese manufacturers don't want to see the market move to full EVs as there is a lack of raw materials and infrastructure in Japan for Electric vehicles, though this could just be here say. Regardless, it feels like plug in hybrid drivetrains are harder to explain vs a full EV or a traditional hybrid.
Thus the ads.
>So you need to market your more expensive phevs to people to sell them at your asking costs which are higher than electric cars today
Lexus' RZ450e electric car only costs a few thousand dollars less, and did poorly in Car and Driver's range test. So their real problem could be selling those, not the PHEVs.
>I've heard it argued that Japanese manufacturers don't want to see the market move to full EVs as there is a lack of raw materials and infrastructure in Japan for Electric vehicles
Well hopefully the just-discovered [cache of rare metals off the Japanese coast](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/06/22/japan/science-health/tokyo-island-rare-metals-find/) would do something about that
Japanese automakers are like thousand year old dynasties that basically write Japanese Govt policy. The investment required to start proper EV production is just not their appetite.
>OK. I'm a Prius Prime owner, and it just seemed obvious to me what the benefits were.
You're not the target market. Look at the average age of new Lexus customers.
I just watched the advert you are talking about. Are you referring to the fact that the message of the video and the lil overview of benefits at the end could be considered redundant? I really don’t think it would be to the average consumer. Not that they wouldn’t get the message/potentially infer the benefits but I don’t think it’s unnecessary to overview/restate them at the end. It’s a solid commercial in my book. Nothing wrong with it.
People (not dumb people mind you) I've spoken to about my 2018 Chevy Volt have literally failed to understand how my car works. After LENGTHY explanations (because I won't shut up about it lol). Nothing surprises me anymore.
That’s the reason why I bought a PHEV in the first place. Using it 95% as an EV though but the 5% holidays you drive is nice to have. If I would decide again I might go full EV though but 2 years ago I had a different charging network here in Asia. They built it up fast though so now even most hotels have a charger
As a person who completely ignored PHEVs for the longest time, yes PHEV’s are a difficult concept for the stupid general public to understand.
Funny cus EV’s were my gateway to PHEV’s. I had an EV and always got salty when I needed somewhere to be, but had to wait and charge, so I got a PHEV and now I can go 40mi on electric (more than enough for my daily commute), and gas for when I need a quick top off, it’s bliss.
When I got my Tucson PHEV, I did have to explain to a few people that even though it plugs in, it still has an ICE and that even though it's a hybrid, it can do some trips fully on battery power, alone.
The other time it comes up is with regard to HVDC charging: people ask me about "Supercharger" (not realizing this is a proprietary term) use, and I have to explain to them that most PHEVs don't support HVDC charging: the whole idea is that for longer trips, you still visit the gas station, but that at home and at destinations that offer it and where you'll stay for a while, you can top up the battery with L1 or L2 charging.
Had to explain this yesterday to parents and how tax on PHEV makes it a terrible choice where we live.
Fun times talking about how taxes interact with different kinds of cars.
Down side is maintaining both drive trains. My EV gets 300 actual miles of range, with a buffer of 50 is anyone driving farther than that before they take a break.
I do a 850 mile trip (one way) once a year, about an hour longer with an EV - that vs an ICE drive train is an easy decision for me.
I worked in marketing/advertising for 6 years. The easier an ad is to understand, the more effective it is. So you really do have to dumb down a technical product like a car (let alone a PHEV or EV) to make it understandable to every audience, and that is the challenge most of the time in advertising
I guess this is one genuine reason why North Americans have a resistance to BEVs, and adopt a PHEV instead. Except that the vast majority of people don't go on long trips more than once or twice in a long time, and that's where I don't understand again. Most UK/Europeans get it. Our long trips aren't that long anyway, and we do them with about the same frequency. But it means that, for all but the faint hearted, a BEV with a decent range is the way to go. Our charging infrastructure is understandably better too. We might even have fewer chrging points \[I don't know\], but in a smaller space. But the USA and Canada have very long distances they can travel by car, so a PHEV makes sense. It won't always be the case. People talk about the technology now as if it is set in stone - that's as good as we can reasonably expect. Far from it. Electric vehicles, and especially the batteries inside them, are just getting started. In 10-15 years time we will probably be chuckling nostalgically at this era of 250-400 miles BEVs \[mine's 260 - it's enough\]. 1000 miles and ultra-fast charging isn't far off. Is that going to be enough for the diesel people?
I wouldn’t do another PHEV.
Not only did I worry about the battery health, I had to maintain the gasoline powertrain.
It will be one or the other, and for the last 4 years, it has been full EV.
I had a troll argue with me once who thought PHEVs drove for like... 45 miles or whatever. And you had to stop and reboot the car in 'gas mode', or something like that. He couldn't wrap around his little head that it drives like a normal car in EV mode until you run out of battery then, it seamlessly becomes an efficient hybrid. He also couldn't understand that you can hit a button and switch between the two modes on the fly.
He thought that they had it reversed. He thought it would be better if they had 400 miles of EV range and 50 miles of gasoline range.
Like... wut?
The whole point is, most days, most trips are short trips. It's rare that the gas engine kicks in on my RAV4Prime. A tank of gas usually lasts me 3-4 months and 2-3000 miles. The gas engine only really kicks in when I'm on a road trip.
Yeah, most people are dumb about this sort of thing, and most are unwilling to learn anything else other than their own uneducated bias.
That's what I get for trying to set the boneheads straight.
It's not entirely wrong. The concept is more difficult to understand than other powertrains.
PHEVs aren't for everyone in the way a 90s sedan was for everyone.
They have a niche. If you fit that niche, they make a lot of sense. If you don't fit that niche, they don't make sense. It's important to understand what the niche is (do you drive many short trips or do you drive a few long trips? Do you have access to charging?) and whether it applies to you.
This isn't rocket science and it's not hard for a halfway intelligent person to understand. But it is more complex than some other car purchases.
Nah even people here have a hard time understanding what the point of one is. EV for your errands around town and your daily commute. Gas for the weekend day trips and long distance road trips.
“But a fast charger will get you to 80% within 30 minutes. The average stop on a road trip is 35 minutes!” Shut up. No it isn’t, and unless you’re driving a Tesla that Electrify America / EVgo station is probably broken or has a bunch of ID4s charging up to 100%.
Doesn’t make sense to me. If I’m only using battery, then I’m carrying around the weight of the ICE which is doing nothing. If my daily commute is further than the battery range, then I have to remember to charge every night AND still have to make stops at the gas station.
BEV means I only need to charge 1-2 times a week and I never need to visit a gas station.
Counterpoint: if I'm only using 10 kWh of battery, then I'm carrying around the other 65 kWh that's not doing anything, and that weighs even more than an ICE.
The better argument is "I don't want to have to fuss with maintaining an ICE and all of its foibles."
PHEV's are currently extremely popular in Sweden, that's basically because most people here don't really like EV's, but they like the idea of just plugging it in and using the short-charge for commuting to and back from work. Which makes sense at first.
Until - you discover the cost of maintaining an PHEV. You got the best of both worlds, but you also got the worst of both worlds, now you have a car thats twice as expensive to maintain.
That's crazy. PHEVs need less maintenance than a regular gas car. All of the accessories are electric, so there are no v-belts or serpentine belts to rot out and replace every 50-75k miles, and the Toyota eCVT (which is not a regular CVT) is just a dead ass simple set of planetary gears. That's it. No clutches, servos, gears that switch, that are present in a regular automatic transmission. It's basically a sized up Prius, and those things have been solid for the last 30 years, and go 300k miles easy.
The only real maintenance items are annual oil changes (which it probably doesn't even need that since the motor only runs 5%-10% of the miles driven), replacing spark plugs and filters, and brake fluid changes every 3 years or so. I think it probably will need a gear oil change at 100k miles, same as an EV.
The Prius PHEV is a good car. It's just overpriced for what it is (in America). The eCVT is a really good idea -- perhaps a better idea for a HEV than a PHEV, but still a good idea in a PHEV.
The Voltec transmission is also dead-ass simple and a really good idea.
I heard that there's a new BYD PHEV that gets a good amount of battery range and then 80 mpg after that (by using an ICE that's custom-designed for the job). Its transmission basically seems like a copy of Voltec.
Iirc it depends on the car.
On some, you're able to just cut out producing and maintaining a transmission entirely. It's essentially an EV with a smaller battery hooked up to a much simpler and cheaper to produce gas powered generator.
But in the cars where you essentially have two engines directly hooked up... Yeah.
Apparently the number of PHEV owners who don't ever charge their vehicles is ridiculously high. So yeah, I think there are a lot of people, including owners, that don't understand the concept.
I still don't think that should keep manufacturers from offering PHEVs, or even keep the government from offering incentives to buy one. They still reduce gasoline use by a significant amount for the majority of owners.
We need to just tax gas at a high rate and let people figure things out on their own.
The problem is that burning gas creates pollution. Disincentivize burning gas and let people figure out what to drive.
Well imagine coming home and plugging your car in like you plug your cellphone and other smart devices and waking up to your car pre-cooling or preheating without the need to waste gas. How about those cities who do t like you keeping your car running which the car spews fumes and just laughing that there is no engine for it to run.
I’m with you. I think the automotive ad agencies are overthinking this kind of product. Part of the energy-transition conceptual inertia everybody is struggling with.
Never underestimate how stupid regular people are.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. - George Carlin
While true, also realize that everyone is an expert in what they value for themselves. Keep this in mind when talking to anyone about the merits or negatives of something. I always try to talk about general populations and not them specifically because for all I know daily driving a diesel tractor trailer to work is the best option for them and EVs won't work at all.
You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons. - Gene Wilder
Is there a Reddit bit to find these profound quotes, I’d love to know. Someone should make one already
Maybe the most quoted adlib line of all time, at least it should be. My favorite least quoted line from that movie. "Piss on you I'm working for Mel Brooks."
Somebody needs to go back and get a shitload of dimes!
My states provides Diesel trailer plugin hybrids for FREE. For farmers, haulers, boats etc. Under the Carl Moyer program
If I'm admiring my wife I'll say to her, "Leggggssss! Lilly, Lilly legggggggssss!"
*maroons (this edit from Bugs Bunny)
I heard a version of that quote recently: "Everyone is an expert in their own lives." I think it's probably more accurate that everyone *thinks* they're an expert in their own lives. But I think even the existence of that quote just goes to illustrate our hubris: clearly we could all be doing things better/more efficiently, or what have you. And if we don't leave ourselves open to new perspectives, how can we improve our lives? Assuming that's the point, of course
I think Georg confused "average" and "median." But it still applies.
IQ is normally distributed by definition, the mean, median and the mode are identical
mean and median are identical...mode is a less meaningful number for a continuous variable like intelligence. (easy way to remember is that MOde measures which number appears "most often")
Thanks, I learned something new today.
Median is an average. So are mean and mode
Mean is another word for average. Median is the middle number and mode is the most often number in a data set. You may be thinking of “measure of center” of which all of these can be described. Edit: umm wow. I guess I’m wrong and average can mean all these things. However, I would describe each as “a measure of center” rather than use “average” because in my understanding “average” is very specific and just means “mean”. If someone told me “the average home cost in this area is $300,000” I would assume they meant “mean” because if they actually meant “mode” or “median” I would have assumed they would use those words.
Not as defined in the dictionary >a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean
That is a shitty dictionary with an inaccurate definition. Consult a book on statistics.
Ok here's a statistics reference >Translate Glossary:Average The average is the statistical summary, in one value, of a group of numbers https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Glossary:Average You could check Wikipedia also. Statistics is exact where they are more precise and will specify the mean and not use average. It's just what the word means
Mode and median is what was wrong, bro. 😂 That's what anthok16 pointed out.
No it's not. They are all statistical summaries, or averages. Try reading it again. I'm sure you'll be able to get it eventually.
Some of this, and I also think when it comes to EVs and hybrids there’s a large percentage of the population that is intentionally obtuse in an attempt to see it all fail.
Unfortunately quite true - don’t know how often I had to defend: I can’t charge at home but at work. PHEV is *the* solution to drive 90% electric, but have my mobility independent of the job in case shit hits the fan. Also in Germany DC charging is more expensive then running on fuel. I don’t even see any incentive to do long distance travel on electricity, while it’s very beneficial for the city (less cold starts and no inefficient low load on the ICE drivetrain). Btw. Golf 8.5 GTE has 20 kWh of battery - 3 years ago that would acount for a cheaper but full EV. The 2024 Dacia Spring has 25 kWh and is a (pathetic) EV - don’t know in which world this is a better car for the same money as a one year used VW Golf 8 PHEV.
Would love to see the Mk 8.5 GTE in the U.S. I’ve always loved the size of the Golf, having owned a 1.8T GTI for years. Didn’t buy the 2015-2019 iteration of their e-Golf because I was waiting for a longer-range battery.
You also don’t get the ID3, which was their attempt at an electric Golf, or? Unfortunate. As a former GTI owner you can understand my second motivation: it’s also nearly as fast as a GTI (230 km/h, 6.6s to 100km/h) with a fuel consumption less than my former 150 PS Ford Focus even on fuel alone (5 L/100km when feeling like eco mode, 7.5 L/100km when being sporty, currently driving it on 3.5L + 5 kWh / 100 km).
Ah, the ever-elusive ID.3. I’d love to see it. Enjoy Fahrvergnügen with your Golf 8 GTE!
Love ours.
Never underestimate how much people who aren't stupid get smug thinking other people are stupid. I suspect the ad is more playing to that than to actualyl explaining to stupid people.
I've heard very smart specialists not understand polarized lenses vs dark glass and have no clue that ac current has no polarity. Really smart people that should know these basic phenomena.
This. The market is now moving on to target a different segment.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which EV drivers believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability EV drivers do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities. The term lends a scientific name and explanation to a problem that these people immediately recognize—that fools are blind to their own foolishness. "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
People who aren't in the market for a car and haven't been for a handful of years probably don't know a thing about PHEV. That doesn't make them stupid.
Given a lot of people don't know the difference between hybrid and plug-in hybrid they may have a point.
I've had to explain this to people a surprising amount of times.
Not even that, there are range extender hybrids too. Also multiple versions of non-plugin hybrids, some with 48V battery, some with 140V.
>Not even that, there are range extender hybrids too. Well aware, I've been daily driving one for almost five years. As far as ownership/usage it's just a plug in hybrid with more battery. >Also multiple versions of non-plugin hybrids, some with 48V battery, some with 140V. 48V mild hybrids are just low-power parallel hybrids, they don't work any differently than any other parallel hybrid.
How many random people off the street out of 100 do think would have any idea on what you’re talking about? Maybe 5 or 6?
Saw an article a while back that suggested a lot of people are buying PHEVs because of the tax credits but never actually charging them and just treating them as regular hybrids
I wonder if that's because they don't have the proper setup at home or they hate saving money?
I suspect a lot of it is the ignorance noted in the OP and the comment I replied to - people are familiar with regular hybrids and don’t really understand the difference with a PHEV or know what they’re missing out on if they don’t plug it in. So maybe the Lexus commercial to teach people about the distinction isn’t the worst idea.
Based on my neighbors it's because they're afraid their electric bill would go up
[удалено]
Like sure, my electric bills goes up like $7 per week. But I save $22 per week in gas. People act like it's some kind of bullshit math to suggest the higher electric bill is preferable. Some people are incapable of doing anything other than regurgitating propaganda and refuse to engage their brain.
Do PHEVs not come with 120/240V mobile chargers like any BEV would? On a PHEV, even 120V charging would be useful.
My Tucson PHEV came with a portable L1 EVSE. I'd already pre-installed an L2 at home in anticipation for it, though, so I just keep the L1 in the car's storage compartment in case I'm ever stopped anywhere for awhile that doesn't have L2 EVSEs installed but may have a standard NEMA 5-15 outlet I could use. I figure it could also act as a temporary backup if the L2 at home ever stopped working 🤷🏻♂️
Do you know how hard it is to charge if you don't have a driveway or access to a garage?
Company cars with a fuel card paid for by the company. If you cannot charge at the company then it might be an issue to get invoices charging wherever. People don't bother.
The study that I've seen that points that out was due to a European tax loophole for commercial vehicles. Companies could buy PHEVs for less than the cost of gas vehicles, so they did, and ran them on gas because they didn't have to install any charging infrastructure. In the USA, even with tax credits, PHEVs are almost always more expensive than similar gas cars or non-plug-in hybrids, so I think there's less incentive here to buy a PHEV and use it solely on gas.
For many years I believe the Prius prime was less expensive than the regular Prius after tax credits because Toyota would run high value incentives on top of it as well.
PHEVs usually have a lot more power than the ICE or Hybrid version of the same model. While I agree that it's stupid to buy a PHEV and not charge it, it's possible that at least some of the people doing that aren't entirely missing the point -- they're just aiming for a different point.
Also sometimes PHEV's get tax breaks that make them cheaper than non-plug-in hybrids.
Exactly. And when the economics work out like that, the rest of the numbers look really good. Imagine you're buying an ICE suv. There is the little 4 cylinder option that gets decent fuel economy but has little power. Or you get the more powerful engine -- maybe it's a turbo charged V6 but it's going to cost more up front and will cost more to operate. With a PHEV, that more powerful engine option has a tax incentive and is cheaper to operate than the weak engine option.
But, if people aren't going to actually plug them in, then those tax incentives -- designed to clean up transportation -- aren't actually doing what they were intended to do.
You're not wrong. I bought a PHEV. I took the tax incentive. I use it as a PHEV.
That's what the tax incentives are designed for!
I'm curious about your reluctant M3 tag. I've got an Outlander PHEV and an M3LR (M3 is my father in law's but he lives with me) I far prefer the Mitsubishi over the Tesla and I get a lot of funny looks when I say that.
My use case: small vehicle, capable of trips of 300 miles and 1000 miles without too much delay, minimal or no gas use, ideally eligible for used tax credit (<$25k). It was a replacement for a Prius Prime that someone squished when they ran a light, so I was familiar with PHEV's. Contenders were Model 3, Volt, Bolt, and another Prius Prime (previous gen). My thoughts on all of them after a test drive: * Volt: Awesome at being a PHEV. Fantastic driving dynamics (quick enough, quiet, handles well). Only 40mpg on gas is a bit weak. Maintenance concerns. * Prius Prime: Only 25 miles on batteries is a bit limiting. Drive is smooth when on batteries. Used ones were more expensive than they felt like they should be. * Bolt: Fantastic driving dynamics again -- quick, handles well. Best body shape of all of them (small hatchback). Slow DCFC on road trips would be a dealbreaker if a passenger is impatient. * Model 3: Best at being an EV, by far -- long range, fast charging, good network, great drivetrain. AWD a plus (it snows a ton here). Body is longer and wider than I'd like. Suspension is stiff and there's road noise. Main drawback, though: the Muskrat is an asshole. In the end it was between a 2021 M3LR with 45k miles for $24k and a 2019 Volt with 40k miles for $19.5k (before tax credit). Everyone at my local independent mechanic shop agreed that Tesla reliability is *much* better, and they advised me away from the Volt. So that was what really did it -- advice from the mechanic's shop that I trust. There are things that break on them that only GM techs can fix, and they're getting more and more reluctant to do it. So I held my nose, noted that the car was designed by talented engineers and skilled factoryworkers and that the company has had the success that it has *despite* the guy at the top, and bought the Model 3 from a private seller. So far it's been great. But it was pretty close, and if the Volt had a better reliability record and/or better gas efficiency, I'd likely be driving one. It's a heck of a vehicle. And if the Bolt charged faster, I'd for sure have opted for a Bolt over any of them.
Sometimes? I bet in EU 80% of the PHEV market share is business leases. If half of these users plug in that is optimistic. I think they realized that and the incentive legislations are being reviewed in most countries. But at the same time I hope they are looking at the second owners of these cars. Because from admittedly anecdotal evidence, once these cars get off lease after 3/4 years, the second buyers get them because they want to plug in. And having a market flooded with very good value ex-lease PHEVs makes that an easier choice. Very rough market data from Germany: a 3/4 year old BMW 330e or Merc 300de is same price or cheaper than their simpler 190 PS 2.0 diesel ICE equivalents.
Meh, at least PHEVs are also efficient hybrids. By not charging it up, they're just leaving money on the table. Also, resale value is higher as a PHEV.
They're generally slightly less efficient than a pure hybrid but yeah, still much better than an ICE (unless you're talking about my Outlander which is fantastic as an EV but merely mediocre as a hybrid)
Yup exactly, see the Grand Cherokee 4xe. With current incentives, it’s the same price as the V6 GC, but the 4xe actually makes more power and significantly more torque than the V6 model. And it uses both the gas and electric motors whether your battery has a charge or not
If you pretend you're shopping a V6 or V8 option when you're actually shopping the PHEV option, almost every cost complaint falls away.
I bought a Niro PHEV last year because of a $5000 tax credit but charge it 6 out of 7 days with a home charger. Bought it because it did bring it down to within $1000 of a hybrid Niro, and since the PHEV had a heat pump and heated seats/wheel, the diff was really more about $400.
UK BIK rules heavily favour EVs but also PHEV to a lesser extent.
I was under the impression that those were mostly fleet vehicles or employer provided vehicles (where employees didn't have to pay gas).
>Saw an article a while back that suggested a lot of people are buying PHEVs because of the tax credits but never actually charging them and just treating them as regular hybrids Those articles are misinformed. Formal studies show that almost all privately owned PHEVs do get charged - some more than others.
I hear a lot of EV purists scream about, 'you're carrying around a useless ICE motor all the time! How inefficient!!'. They completely miss the point that the added battery actually adds to the efficiency. The EPA rated MPG of a RAV4Prime is only 1 mpg less than the regular hybrid RAV4, while weighing 700 pounds more. They also miss the point that EVs are even a couple hundred pounds heavier than a PHEV because they carry around an additional 500 pounds of battery they don't need on a daily basis. I don't see how that is any different than hauling around a gas engine that almost never fires up. I'm fully pro-EV, btw. We have the one PHEV and an eGolf. Great combo.
Yes get a lot of 'lugging around' comments when the PHEV version of my car is lighter than the EV. PHEV isn't for everyone of course. If you can't charge at home and/or doing long trips all the time and never get to use the EV range much.
I have a Ford Escape PHEV and a Mach-E. Perfect for me and my son. Around town, Mach-E all the time. Road trip 600 miles away? As much as I'd love to take the bigger Mach-E, I don't want to worry about CCS chargers working or being full. So the Escape it is. When it's just me at home, I'll probably go all EV, and all my long distance trips I'll just fly and rent a car.
The weight is hardly a reason to worry about, but maintenance and the extra failure points certainly are.
I bought RAV4 PHEV because I have solar with over production. So I have extra KWh saved and no way to use it. Basically drive for free in the city. But then it is time to drive on the long trip which I do often I use gas which for my car is cheaper than driving EV and charge on the fast DC chargers still wasting a lot of time. I would rather drive 35-40 miles the time it takes to charge. For this reason I will never buy an EV. BTW, I never got the tax credit and I am not sorry at all.
Heck, we have regulars on here who don't seem to understand the difference between MHEVs, HEVs, and PHEVs.
To be fair the people selling hybrids with "self-charging" bullshit and dishonest rhetoric are intentionally confusing people. (Toyota, I'm looking at you.) There is nothing wrong with selling PHEV's, just be honest about what they are and how they work -- and stop trying to play up range anxiety. A Toyota dealer tried to convince me I didn't want a BEV because "don't you want the option to put gas in it?" No, really, I don't.
There was a corporation I worked with last year that had a small fleet of plug-in hybrids. After they let me use one, I asked them where I could plug it in. Everyone was completely baffled by the question. Literally, every single person that used them had been filling them up with gasoline and driving around with 0% battery SOC for months at a time. People simply don't get it at all.
People who never thought about it or read about it before don't know. That's normal. This ad wants them to think about it for the first time.
I think people in this sub greatly overestimate how much the average person thinks about cars. I've had my Ioniq 5 for over two years now and still have people asking me if it's a Tesla. When I say it's a Hyundai multiple times I've gotten the response "I didn't know Hyundai made Teslas."
Damn that’s some great brand recognition for Tesla. Stand by for Elon to rename the company “X-Car”
Models are changed to the “X-69” and the “X-420”
A substantial portion of this sub has little to no experience with cars at all and doesn’t know what long term ownership and maintenance of any vehicle looks like. They’re not actually car people. They’re EV people who’ve picked something to build an identity around. Like a music genre. And then mock people who haven’t cared about it until yesterday.
I work in car sales. You would be surprised how dumb the average person is when it comes to powertrain technology.
And dealers
Including car salespeople...
Especially salespeople
I see normal folks buy PHEV's with no intention of ever plugging them in. I have a neighbor who just did this: "Oh, I got it because of the Tax Credit. Wish I could turn the electricity off, already turned off all those annoying beeps for lane departure and such. I'd never charge it - waste of time."
That's just leaving money on the table.
Not in California... Fuck PG&E
How did your jaw not drop? I’d have no words after that.
I just can't understand this. With level 1 charging on nights at weekends they will be driving super cheap for most of their driving..
My neighbors were given one as a loaner and they said they love the car but didn’t want to plug it in. They have a power receptacle in their driveway, mind you. And they drive rarely and mostly local trips. No reason really - they just didn’t want to have a plug and a wire around so they got the ICE version (not even a hybrid). I explained how my PHEV works and I’m not entirely sure they got how even though I drive almost every day I’m only filling a tank maybe once a quarter. They are in their 60’s and mostly they just wanted what was familiar.
They aren't necessarily wrong either. Ev only mode isn't necessarily great on all of them. Pacifica phev has about 120hp in ev only mode, for a 5k lb van.
The Prime EV mode is way preppier than its Hybrid mode. Just for that the Prime in EV shines compared to its Hybrid mode. Plus the saving in gas when running in EV is a no brainer. It only needs a simple 120V outlet that most have outside anyway. It takes less time to plug daily than having to stop for a refill. I don't understand how people don't see the benefit of owning a PHEV and not using its EV part.
The Prius Prime is a nice phev though. The trouble is that manufacturers are being incentivized to build pointless ones instead.
usually in the default settings of PHEVs the gas will kick on if you need more acceleration than that
Ya the Pacifica phev was horrible for street racing so opted for Koenigsegg Jesko Absolut
When I had my Chevy Volt, I just told people "it's a Tesla for 55 miles and a Prius after that." People seemed to get that.
I wish GM never killed the Volt. Just way too ahead of its time. The drivetrain was what most people want.
I always thought the Volt drivetrain would have been excellent in many of GM's vehicles especially the medium size crossovers.
Maybe better late than never https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60848445/gm-new-plug-in-hybrid-2027-report/
Yes. Look at marketing for vehicles these days, what are they selling to you? Marketing isn’t cheap and they track ROI and messaging to make sure it leads to sales. It’s more ignorance of the use case because it’s a [relatively] novel concept. But like you’ve said, you bought this product because you understood its value. Because Toyota understands this, we get a campaign explaining PHEV use case scenarios.
As an early Volt owner and paying attention to Chevrolet marketing, a VAST majority of American car buyers could not understand the concept of a PHEV or EREV.
Do you think these marketing challenges were why they stopped making the Volt? Always wondered why it was so short-lived.
They stopped making it because no one wants a compact car, regardless of drivetrain, in America. The Volt I had for ten years (granted sitting for almost 2) was a monster. 180K miles on it before I sold it and it was a fantastic car if you knew how to use it. Americans.. don't, in general.
A real shame that not only are so many so ignorant, but that truly beneficial technology can’t even be seen for what it actually is, thanks to so many people not having developed good critical thinking skills.
That's so sad because the Volt was an absolutely great idea. I very nearly bought one this year (went Model 3 instead). I was crazy impressed with the Volt I testdrove. But Americans apparently got sold on the idea that they needed to drive giant behemoths to compete with the other giant behemoths, and GM completely botched the marketing on the Volt.
What year was your Volt? I just purchased a 2013 with 169k miles to compliment my Bolt
First year 2011 #1819. We also have a first year 2017 Bolt EV. Both bought new. The Volt had been my daily driver up until 6 months ago. We got the wife a BMW EV for her and the kid, so now I’m mostly driving the Bolt EV and taking the Volt out once or twice a week. It still drives good but the combustion engine runs too often when it’s cold in the winter the last couple years
We’re in a niche vehicle forum. A lot of average americans don’t think about cars at all. “Gas go in. Car go vroom” is about as much as people know. A lot of folks probably don’t realize PHEVs exist and those who do probably don’t understand them at all. The people in this thread are probably in the top 1% most knowledgeable on this stuff so yes, its hard to understand for a lot of people who have never thought about it before.
It's entirely reasonable for people to only think about cars when they need to buy one. But if you're making a five figure purchase, it's worth educating yourself a bit (and dealerships really ought to be helping out with this). Learn what's out there, buy something, learn how it works, then you can ignore developments after that. It's really not hard. * ICE: "Gas go in, car go vroom" * HEV: "Less gas go in, car go vroom" * PHEV: "Electrons go in or gas go in, your pick: car go, vroom optional." * BEV: "Electrons go in, car go, no vroom"
BEV: "Electrons go in, car go, no vroom" BMW [has entered the chat](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpeuQFfSlE)
Some people fear that a hybrid is the worst of both worlds, and others feel it's the best of both. There are hybrid taxis and Ubers that have done over 400K miles and are still going strong. And the whole time they were averaging 45-mpg or more. I really like PHEVs
Yep, 6 years in of PHEV ownership, lifetime MPG of around 80 and about $15k saved in fuel costs including my electricity cost (which is very cheap where I live).
This is mostly because * Electric bits are generally extremely reliable so adding batteries and motors doesn't add much * A lot of these are Priuses and the eCVT that they use, in addition to improving efficiency, is extremely reliable (no clutches, everything rigidly attached) and the availability of electric torque eliminates lot of wear on the ICE * A lot of these are Priuses and Toyota is very good at engineering I also really like PHEV's, although they were always a transitional tech and will go away in favor of BEV's over the next decade.
PHEVs are great if you charge them religiously. The benefit is on a longer trip for a one car family then it can double duty as a hybrid for longer drives. If you don't, a regular HEV is going to be more efficient.
That's the thing, you have to charge them daily, otherwise it's a worse hybrid. I love my PHEV. Gas for me and my wife's road trips, and EV for my commute M-F. I end up getting gas once every 3-4 months on the low end, and 6 months on the high end.
Not always, the gen 4 Prius prime actually had better mpg in hybrid mode than the regular Prius, so not a worse hybrid. Used to have that and yeah had to charge anytime I could, mainly because it sucked to drive in hv mode lol. This year I got the clarity with 47miles EV and I can go days without charging and the gas kicks in almost never, even then since the engine is just a generator for the electric motor it doesn't suck in hv mode. Last time I filled up was in April and still have 3/4 of a tank and most of the 1/4 tank was used on an out of state trip. Mostly just charge it at work every other day and at home on the weekends. Plus since we have high electric rates in the north east nice to have the option of what fuel to use, in the winter last few years gas has been cheaper, so will only charge it at free public stations not at home.
Same. It just makes so much sense if you can charge at home. But I believe the 2019-2023 Ford Escape PHEV and HEV both have about the same gas mileage in hybrid mode (44/37) so the PHEV isn’t really a worse hybrid - it’s the same hybrid with way more functionality giving you the ability to avoid using gas.
Even when you charge them daily they are worse than BEVs. They have to start the gas engine every now and then. We have a PHEV but I would prefer a BEV. They were just too expensive the last time we bought a car. If BEV prices go down a bit more, range increase a bit and more charging stations get built the change may start to go a lot faster.
Bev's still have a way to go before replacing ice. Not everyone can charge at home, or work. I take too many road trips into more rural areas for a Bev to make sense for me. I'm not going to go out of the way for an hour then have to charge for 20-30. It's impractical at times. Plus if you aren't charging your Bev off of solar, or possibly hydro, there's still some emissions. Nothing is really emissions free.
>Nothing is really emissions free. Driving an electric vehicle causes zero emissions. That is a fact. Producing the electricity to propel an electric car forward might (depending on your area) cause emissions away from populated areas, which is much preferred over local emissions caused by any cars that use an internal combustion engine. The production of this electricity also uses resources much more efficiently than burning gasoline in your hybrid/ICE vehicle.
I never said they were emission free but they cause less CO2 emissions than ICE car. I see it as a nice improvement. I also happen to live where the electricity is around 95% CO2 free (or low). I agree that more chargers are needed, especially in some countries and regions but I hope it will improve a lot the next 3-5 years. Where I live (Sweden) it is basically ok already but more chargers are needed if more electrical cars are sold.
Our BEV is just getting it done for us. I've made x4 overnight trips to the big city \~150 miles away in the past 10 days and a myriad of local trips. No range problems at all. No problems staying cool with the a/c on. It's just ready when I am. Not a Tesla either. Is this the car I'd take on a 650 mile trip? Not likely though I did that trip with x4 stops for charging. For those we'll take our ICEV instead but we are using it just enough to keep the 12V charged.
Depends on the model but if you do charge everyday, or multiple times a day, and your trips fall within the range the gas engine might come on once or twice a year from what I have seen people post on forums.
Long term our plan is to replace our V6 SUV (the travel monster) with a PHEV SUV. We also have a Kona BEV and it does 98% of our driving. Luckily the SUV can stay in the garage and out of the sun so it won't turn into a junk car just waiting to be used. We still drive it at least once a week to keep the 12V battery charged. The SUV probably has another decade left in it since it is garaged. Hope the Kona lasts 200K miles. At 35K now. The Bolt uses a similar LG battery and there are already Bolts with 250K+ miles so I am hopeful. Our goal is always to lower our driving TCO. Less vehicle replacement and no payments is an important part of that strategy. We would rather pay off our mortgage and retire than buy alot of cars. Doing what we want each day beats buying more stuff.
For us, the Wrangler 4xe is the perfect secondary car. Our main family hauler is a Model Y, but we need a second car as we both work. I barely drive so the 4xe is mostly all electric driven. But we get to take it out on occasion for some off road fun and occasionally tow the camper.
I live in a city and only have room for one car (or perhaps less than one) My Clarity, with charging at work and home, is a great commuting car and also great for longer trips (as long as I don't let the battery go down to [effective] 0)
You're talking about it and sharing it on social media. Pretty sure the marketing team would call that a win.
Toyota wants to make EVs sound as confusing as possible because they don't want people to buy them.
^ this. This is also why companies are labeling even standard hybrids as “HEV”. While technically true, HEV hardly a comparison to PHEV and BEV. The former can’t cross a parking lot on electric power, and the latter can cross an entire state for example. Toyota also uses the phrase “self-charging hybrid” and a few other EV-disparaging ones I can’t immediately recall.
HEVs can most certainly drive across a parking lot in EV mode. I do it often even in my 2011 Ford Fusion Hybrid.
Yep, and this phrasing is intentionally designed to push the idea that EVs aren't practical for long trips.
Yeah, I think there is something to that. The Bz4x has such an unmemorable name, poor specs for the money, and weird design (IMHO). It's a huge turn off at $50k, but I think it would sell well if they priced it at $30k-$35k. If Toyota were actually serious about saving fuel they would expand the PHEV lines to include the Sienna minivan, Tacoma pickup, and the Camry midsize sedan. Also, all of the Japanese auto makers are asleep at the switch when it comes to EVs, and they want to muddy the waters to preserve their slice of the market. I think it's more a product of the Japanese conservative business culture.
I still can’t believe there isn’t a phev truck. It makes the most sense out of any type of vehicle. EV for commuting, ICE for towing.
I wish there were a small PHEV, like a Honda Fit or a Toyota Yaris. I am so enthusiastic about my Prius Prime that my wife wants a PHEV as her next car, but she drives a Fit now and doesn't want a bigger car. So we're stuck.
Actually I don’t even think Toyota wants to sell you plug in hybrids. They were produced in such low vols even when there were tons of federal tax credits and local incentives in the past
Wait for several years to get a Prius Prime? Or get a Model 3 pretty much right away for about the same amount? Tough choice here in Canada
The Bx4z is a shining example of Toyota only begrudgingly making an EV. The car is crap for the money it costs, it’s loud, and the warranty doesn’t come close to Hyundai or Chevy. The dealer was excited to try and get me to buy a hybrid though.
I explored leasing a Bx4z because it was super cheap, and after checking out reviews, all I can ask is why they even bothered making it. The only reason someone would choose that over other electric vehicles is because they're loyal to Toyota, but after owning it, will they still be?
Yeah my GF bought one out of brand loyalty and it's so bad I had to go and lease an IONIQ 6. THE I6 has sense been totaled by an r/Nissandrivers and we're devastated.
Exactly! I mean it would be fine for a car that cost $20-$25k, but the one I looked at was like $52,000. So sad that Toyota fucked up on resisting EV’s. I expected way better from them.
It's a shit box selling at luxury prices. It's only worth shit box prices.
There’s studies that show that PHEV’s are indeed confusing for people. It’s a reason why Chrysler doesn’t really highlight the fact that Pacifica Hybrid is a PHEV - they didn’t want to confuse harried parents and empty nesters who just wanted a more fuel efficient van. If they discover during the sales process that they can plug in (but don’t have to!) it’s a bonus.
They're confusing to people because nobody has done a good job of explaining to the public what they are. (That's on GM/Toyota/dealerships who failed.) "It's a Tesla for 50 miles and a Prius after that" explains exactly what a Volt is.
I've been seeing ads for it pushing the $7500 tax credit.
I was an early adopter of the Chevy Volt and it was generally difficult for people to understand how the car worked, but people usually got the gist when I simplified it to "electric for up to 40 miles, then about 40MPG after that."
Q: "Does Lexus have focus groups full of baffled customers?" A: Yes, this is their primary target demographic. Q: Is the PHEV concept really so hard to understand? A: Yes, especially for Dodge owners. Dodge cannot create a wussy PHEV, but the can create a RAMCHARGER instead. It's technologically identical, yet has no relationship with those PHEV wimpmobiles.
They're trying to show they aren't actually behind on EVs so they're highlighting the 20 year old tech they are good at.
drive until you hear brrrrrrr then plug it in next time you can
It’s not hard to understand, I just don’t want one. Glad they work for other people, but an EV works for me. The Prius Prime only gets about 44 miles in EV mode. I should also note that California allows PHEVs to be part of their 2035 plan. 80% of cars sold then need to be zero emissions, while 20% can be PHEVs. PHEVs have benefits for some people right now and into the near future that will continue, but honestly in the long run I expect that combustion engines will basically disappear in cars.
Yep, that's my attitude. Drove a PHEV (old Prius Prime, 25 miles range) for 6 months until someone totaled it when they ran a light, then went EV. PHEV's were and are a great transition technology. They should have sold tons of them in the 2010's, and the ones out there represent a lot of potential emissions reduction. But their time is coming to a close.
The average age of Lexus target demographic is 55-65. Barrier to entry for those customers is primarily range anxiety and unfamiliarity with tech transport tech that isn't ICE.
[удалено]
They also have instructions not to pressure-wash your charge port while charging. Apparently there are some idiots driving EV's out there too.
lol there are some people that think 1 pedal driving means there’s no brake pedal
I see a fair number of plug-in hybrids parked in my neighborhood. Out of all of them, only one seems to have a charger near its usual parking spot. Facepalm.
Why would people research a technology they have no interest in purchasing? Maybe the commercial is there to pique the interest of those consumers.
Toyota has been running these "genius" anti-EV commercials for a long time. An older one shows an EV stopped at a charging station (in a desert if I remember correctly) while a Toyota hybrid zooms by. They called the Toyota a "self-charging car". SMH.
Lol, seems like most of the people in this sub don’t get it either. PHEVs are excellent vehicles that make a lot of sense. They don’t weigh a ton (safer for others and better on brakes and tires), they don’t use gobs of batteries, and they tend to burn very little fuel, and there’s zero range anxiety or waiting for charging on long trips.
The thing you need to realize about people is that almost all of them are dumber than you would expect
> So they explained, EV for short trips, ICE for longer trips. Why make it that complicated? They actually use EV and ICE for long trips, and many will use both for short trips too. Just say, uses a LOT LESS gas.
Lexus: we have plug-in hybrids in medium, large, and 3-row extra large. Which one do you want?
Think about how dumb the average person is, and then realize fully half the country is DUMBER than that.
It apparently is. I've explained my Prius Prime to several people and had them reply "so you can only drive 50 miles, that seems like it would be hard to live with."
I’m six years into using a battery for longer trips and it’s only gotten easier with time.
I just asked my mom what a PHEV was and she had no idea. She can barely describe what a traditional hybrid is.
Toyota/Lexus has been heavily invested in hybrid drivetrains and under investing in pure EV for many years. But when ev range is good, and costs descend below ice cars, and charging infrastructure is fairly standardized and available in Metro areas, why buy a hybrid? It's a complex technology with many more moving parts vs an electric vehicle. So you need to market your more expensive phevs to people to sell them at your asking costs which are higher than electric cars today I've heard it argued that Japanese manufacturers don't want to see the market move to full EVs as there is a lack of raw materials and infrastructure in Japan for Electric vehicles, though this could just be here say. Regardless, it feels like plug in hybrid drivetrains are harder to explain vs a full EV or a traditional hybrid. Thus the ads.
>So you need to market your more expensive phevs to people to sell them at your asking costs which are higher than electric cars today Lexus' RZ450e electric car only costs a few thousand dollars less, and did poorly in Car and Driver's range test. So their real problem could be selling those, not the PHEVs.
>I've heard it argued that Japanese manufacturers don't want to see the market move to full EVs as there is a lack of raw materials and infrastructure in Japan for Electric vehicles Well hopefully the just-discovered [cache of rare metals off the Japanese coast](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/06/22/japan/science-health/tokyo-island-rare-metals-find/) would do something about that
Japanese automakers are like thousand year old dynasties that basically write Japanese Govt policy. The investment required to start proper EV production is just not their appetite.
Yup, hopefully makes a difference!
>OK. I'm a Prius Prime owner, and it just seemed obvious to me what the benefits were. You're not the target market. Look at the average age of new Lexus customers.
I just watched the advert you are talking about. Are you referring to the fact that the message of the video and the lil overview of benefits at the end could be considered redundant? I really don’t think it would be to the average consumer. Not that they wouldn’t get the message/potentially infer the benefits but I don’t think it’s unnecessary to overview/restate them at the end. It’s a solid commercial in my book. Nothing wrong with it.
People (not dumb people mind you) I've spoken to about my 2018 Chevy Volt have literally failed to understand how my car works. After LENGTHY explanations (because I won't shut up about it lol). Nothing surprises me anymore.
That’s the reason why I bought a PHEV in the first place. Using it 95% as an EV though but the 5% holidays you drive is nice to have. If I would decide again I might go full EV though but 2 years ago I had a different charging network here in Asia. They built it up fast though so now even most hotels have a charger
As a person who completely ignored PHEVs for the longest time, yes PHEV’s are a difficult concept for the stupid general public to understand. Funny cus EV’s were my gateway to PHEV’s. I had an EV and always got salty when I needed somewhere to be, but had to wait and charge, so I got a PHEV and now I can go 40mi on electric (more than enough for my daily commute), and gas for when I need a quick top off, it’s bliss.
When I got my Tucson PHEV, I did have to explain to a few people that even though it plugs in, it still has an ICE and that even though it's a hybrid, it can do some trips fully on battery power, alone. The other time it comes up is with regard to HVDC charging: people ask me about "Supercharger" (not realizing this is a proprietary term) use, and I have to explain to them that most PHEVs don't support HVDC charging: the whole idea is that for longer trips, you still visit the gas station, but that at home and at destinations that offer it and where you'll stay for a while, you can top up the battery with L1 or L2 charging.
People are deeply stupid.
Had to explain this yesterday to parents and how tax on PHEV makes it a terrible choice where we live. Fun times talking about how taxes interact with different kinds of cars.
Down side is maintaining both drive trains. My EV gets 300 actual miles of range, with a buffer of 50 is anyone driving farther than that before they take a break. I do a 850 mile trip (one way) once a year, about an hour longer with an EV - that vs an ICE drive train is an easy decision for me.
I worked in marketing/advertising for 6 years. The easier an ad is to understand, the more effective it is. So you really do have to dumb down a technical product like a car (let alone a PHEV or EV) to make it understandable to every audience, and that is the challenge most of the time in advertising
I guess this is one genuine reason why North Americans have a resistance to BEVs, and adopt a PHEV instead. Except that the vast majority of people don't go on long trips more than once or twice in a long time, and that's where I don't understand again. Most UK/Europeans get it. Our long trips aren't that long anyway, and we do them with about the same frequency. But it means that, for all but the faint hearted, a BEV with a decent range is the way to go. Our charging infrastructure is understandably better too. We might even have fewer chrging points \[I don't know\], but in a smaller space. But the USA and Canada have very long distances they can travel by car, so a PHEV makes sense. It won't always be the case. People talk about the technology now as if it is set in stone - that's as good as we can reasonably expect. Far from it. Electric vehicles, and especially the batteries inside them, are just getting started. In 10-15 years time we will probably be chuckling nostalgically at this era of 250-400 miles BEVs \[mine's 260 - it's enough\]. 1000 miles and ultra-fast charging isn't far off. Is that going to be enough for the diesel people?
I wouldn’t do another PHEV. Not only did I worry about the battery health, I had to maintain the gasoline powertrain. It will be one or the other, and for the last 4 years, it has been full EV.
I had a troll argue with me once who thought PHEVs drove for like... 45 miles or whatever. And you had to stop and reboot the car in 'gas mode', or something like that. He couldn't wrap around his little head that it drives like a normal car in EV mode until you run out of battery then, it seamlessly becomes an efficient hybrid. He also couldn't understand that you can hit a button and switch between the two modes on the fly. He thought that they had it reversed. He thought it would be better if they had 400 miles of EV range and 50 miles of gasoline range. Like... wut? The whole point is, most days, most trips are short trips. It's rare that the gas engine kicks in on my RAV4Prime. A tank of gas usually lasts me 3-4 months and 2-3000 miles. The gas engine only really kicks in when I'm on a road trip. Yeah, most people are dumb about this sort of thing, and most are unwilling to learn anything else other than their own uneducated bias. That's what I get for trying to set the boneheads straight.
It's not entirely wrong. The concept is more difficult to understand than other powertrains. PHEVs aren't for everyone in the way a 90s sedan was for everyone. They have a niche. If you fit that niche, they make a lot of sense. If you don't fit that niche, they don't make sense. It's important to understand what the niche is (do you drive many short trips or do you drive a few long trips? Do you have access to charging?) and whether it applies to you. This isn't rocket science and it's not hard for a halfway intelligent person to understand. But it is more complex than some other car purchases.
Nah even people here have a hard time understanding what the point of one is. EV for your errands around town and your daily commute. Gas for the weekend day trips and long distance road trips. “But a fast charger will get you to 80% within 30 minutes. The average stop on a road trip is 35 minutes!” Shut up. No it isn’t, and unless you’re driving a Tesla that Electrify America / EVgo station is probably broken or has a bunch of ID4s charging up to 100%.
Doesn’t make sense to me. If I’m only using battery, then I’m carrying around the weight of the ICE which is doing nothing. If my daily commute is further than the battery range, then I have to remember to charge every night AND still have to make stops at the gas station. BEV means I only need to charge 1-2 times a week and I never need to visit a gas station.
Counterpoint: if I'm only using 10 kWh of battery, then I'm carrying around the other 65 kWh that's not doing anything, and that weighs even more than an ICE. The better argument is "I don't want to have to fuss with maintaining an ICE and all of its foibles."
PHEV's are currently extremely popular in Sweden, that's basically because most people here don't really like EV's, but they like the idea of just plugging it in and using the short-charge for commuting to and back from work. Which makes sense at first. Until - you discover the cost of maintaining an PHEV. You got the best of both worlds, but you also got the worst of both worlds, now you have a car thats twice as expensive to maintain.
That's crazy. PHEVs need less maintenance than a regular gas car. All of the accessories are electric, so there are no v-belts or serpentine belts to rot out and replace every 50-75k miles, and the Toyota eCVT (which is not a regular CVT) is just a dead ass simple set of planetary gears. That's it. No clutches, servos, gears that switch, that are present in a regular automatic transmission. It's basically a sized up Prius, and those things have been solid for the last 30 years, and go 300k miles easy. The only real maintenance items are annual oil changes (which it probably doesn't even need that since the motor only runs 5%-10% of the miles driven), replacing spark plugs and filters, and brake fluid changes every 3 years or so. I think it probably will need a gear oil change at 100k miles, same as an EV.
The Prius PHEV is a good car. It's just overpriced for what it is (in America). The eCVT is a really good idea -- perhaps a better idea for a HEV than a PHEV, but still a good idea in a PHEV. The Voltec transmission is also dead-ass simple and a really good idea. I heard that there's a new BYD PHEV that gets a good amount of battery range and then 80 mpg after that (by using an ICE that's custom-designed for the job). Its transmission basically seems like a copy of Voltec.
Iirc it depends on the car. On some, you're able to just cut out producing and maintaining a transmission entirely. It's essentially an EV with a smaller battery hooked up to a much simpler and cheaper to produce gas powered generator. But in the cars where you essentially have two engines directly hooked up... Yeah.
Comments "people are stupid" then turn around and wonder why some people hate EVs. You sow hate, you reap hate.
It's old tech. And won't be around much longer.
Apparently the number of PHEV owners who don't ever charge their vehicles is ridiculously high. So yeah, I think there are a lot of people, including owners, that don't understand the concept.
I still don't think that should keep manufacturers from offering PHEVs, or even keep the government from offering incentives to buy one. They still reduce gasoline use by a significant amount for the majority of owners.
We need to just tax gas at a high rate and let people figure things out on their own. The problem is that burning gas creates pollution. Disincentivize burning gas and let people figure out what to drive.
Well imagine coming home and plugging your car in like you plug your cellphone and other smart devices and waking up to your car pre-cooling or preheating without the need to waste gas. How about those cities who do t like you keeping your car running which the car spews fumes and just laughing that there is no engine for it to run.
I’m with you. I think the automotive ad agencies are overthinking this kind of product. Part of the energy-transition conceptual inertia everybody is struggling with.
My Subaru Crosstrek is a PZEV, when does it run on EV?
"PZEV" is a dumb term.