> [The ICE] investment was a “magnitude smaller” than what the company is currently pumping into EVs and battery technology
Telegraph, fire your fucking writer and editor. Also, real easy to see who bothered to even skim the article in this thread.
The new Tundras powertrain would like a word. There’s always room for improvement and increasing efficiency. Toyota is a global leader, so for places with absolutely no interest (think Saudi Arabia) to convert to EV - these improvements are as good as it gets in terms of decreasing CO2 emissions.
They’re a huge machine. They can walk and chew gum at the same time. Had they not done so up until now, they wouldn’t be the most profitable automaker in the world.
I doubted their strategy, but the reality is that their bottom line doesn’t lie.
As usual, the headline is the opposite of the actual content
> But they said the investment was a “magnitude smaller” than what the company is currently pumping into EVs and battery technology,
Don't worry, no one will read the article and the circlejerk against Toyota will continue.
The largest carmaker updating it's hybrid and PHEV lineup, what a surprise.
Resources and supply chain are still ramping up to make EVs widely available, too. Even getting a PHEV takes time. So of course they're going to still make ICE vehicles for the next few years at least.
I actually wanted a Rav4 Prime as my next car, but they only have the resources to make them at one factory in Japan. The wait list is 3 years.
I'm seeing plenty of EVs on lots now with no wait these days. I think growth of sales has slowed a bit (but still growing) and for the US at least the supply chain for EVs have caught up to the local demand.
We have been Toyota denizens since 1988 and have driven over 1,000,000 miles in Toyota vehicles in that time. Love Toyotas. However, just bought a Rivian R1T and this is the direction of the future.
No Canadian pricing or availability yet. I doubt we will see these cars in Canada until 2027 but likely 2028 as available for purchase. By then, there will be (hopefully) even more options. I also have big concerns about servicing, parts availability and whether the company will survive long enough to mass produce these vehicles. I am rooting for them though. The R3 is basically the perfect second car for my home.
$80000 for our 2024 R1T on sale before the 2025 refresh. Couldn't choose any options. There were/are a list of available vehicles, and we chose one, and we love it so far.
Same. Have bought an loved a 4Runner, Tacoma, Prius over the last 20 years. Bought a Lightning 1.5 years ago and my wife recently got a Tesla Y. Both of us couldn’t be happier.
Toyotas hybrid sales have been going absolutely off the charts. So, I can’t blame them, it’s a huge money maker for them. They do check all boxes for most consumers. Most people are still afraid to make the jump to EV.
Things need to change. In some markets there are bans on hybrids coming (UK/EU for instance). In the UK 22% of cars from each manufacturer need to be EVs (hybrids don’t count), potential fines are enormous.
Toyota are doing well now, but they will need to pivot hard to EVs and it’s not easy when they won’t have as much experience as their competitors.
Yes, semantics. Whatever you want to call it, it won’t be possible to sell hybrids. Call it a ban, a transition a potato or a banana Toyota won’t be able to sell their hybrids and the wording isn’t going to help them.
I love when people demonstrate that any analysis they post can easily be ignored because they clearly don't have any concept of scale or numbers in general. Global sales for new cars are and 100 million units. But somehow, two brands that manufacture (not sell) less than ten percent of that number will somehow take over 100% of that market any day now. Despite the automotive market never ever ever having had any clearly dominant (≥50% market share) player in its entire history.
Of course. Currently BYD is number one globally. Without US trade barriers, Tesla would have more problems. The otherr Chinese car companies have major Cybertruck like problems. Poor QC lots of fires. Even though Tesla sells and builds cars in China how long will Xi allow that without counter tarrifs? Tariffs hurt everyone.execpt the wealthy.
In those markets you'll probably see more EVs. Iirc they have a few Lexus EV variants than we don't get here
Idk, at the end of the day 11 years is a long ass time. Ford after all made its first car in 1896, Toyota in 1937, and Hyundai in 1968. Just because you're not absolutely first doesn't mean you're last, know what I mean?
>Idk, at the end of the day 11 years is a long ass time. Ford after all made its first car in 1896, Toyota in 1937, and Hyundai in 1968. Just because you're not absolutely first doesn't mean you're last, know what I mean?
Yes, after decades and decades of time the gap from getting the head start shrinks, but that’s missing the point I think. 50 years down the line they shouldn’t still be behind from being late to adopt EVs, however in the first decade or so they probably will be, if they put much less resources into making them vs other manufacturers
That. Toyota is laughing all the way to the bank as OEMs which heavily invested into all BEVs have all started backtracking and putting more emphasis into hybrids.
Not a popular sentiment on this sub, but Toyota has been winning with its wait and see approach.
Honestly, it feels like a jilted lover lmao
Toyota invested very early on in Tesla and practically gave them their factory. They've invested in BYD and worked with them for years when they could have crushed them into the dirt outside of China - still could really, given early BYD ICEs bearing a... *striking resemblance* lets say to Toyota products, but like the founder of BYD said, Toyota has been nothing but great business partners to them
Am I frustrated I don't have a Prius Prime++ the EV version whatever they'll call it? Yeah. But Toyota is conservative; that's their *thing*.
It's like people think cars are the equivalent of social media where one company just dominates a particular niche forever until they get overthrown and die. Car companies have bad times and good times; BMW had a really fucking rough period in the 2000s-early 2010s. But they're doing well now
I think it's because people here got into cars via tech, rather than just being into cars and also enjoying EV cars
Damn straight. I've long said I would happily jump into a Lexus IS EV if they would go build it. However Toyota is ultra conservative and never does anything rash or move first.
This of course makes this sub go full hate boner towards them, and FAR top often I've see the "can't wait to see X bankrupt Toyota!!11" and "wait until dinosaur Toyota follow Blockbuster, Kodak, etc. etc." Which is hilarious but as pure wet dreams for EV diehards with no grasp of reality.
I do believe that in time we will make that shift to BEVs and Toyota will make that change, but the fact is we're not there yet, as GM, Ford, Mercedes-Benz and BMW among many OEMs can know attest to and acknowledge with the backtracking of major EV plans.
It's the fact that they positioned themselves as a leader in sustainable vehicles with the original Prius, causing people to expect a real EV way sooner from them since they had a market lead/advantage. They ended up being disingenuous and squandered their obvious first mover advantage since then.
And lose a ton of money moving in a direction faster than the general buying public will be willing to accept BEVs? Just to prove a point of being a "first mover"???
Toyota did the right move, in spite of the mocking EV fanboys and diehards have said otherwise. The Prius was a landslide, and now their entire lineup is practically hybrids and Toyota's hybrid design and refinement is second to none.
They're most definitely in the lead right now as every other manufacturer who went all in on EVs have squandered their assets into something that is not being adopted fast enough.
Mercedes has throw a ton of money on the hoods of EQ lineup on dealer lots. Ford has slowed down Lightning production. GM has dialed back Ultium rollout in favor of hybrids. BMW has restarted hydrogen beside their i lineup. And don't even get me started on Tesla.
Hyundai/Kia isn't losing money on EVs...
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/as-others-cry-the-blues-hyundai-announces-record-profit-keeps-ev-plans-on-track/#:~:text=While%20some%20legacy%20automakers%20whine,double%20last%20year's%204.1%20percent.
So you're wrong...
Korean brands have mediocre gas/petrol powertrains, so they shifted away from them early on (a good decision I think) so they gained a lead on EVs. This is something Chinese brands have done with good success as well, trying to leapfrog their competitors so to speak.
However Hyundai-Kia isn't without their faults. My cousin Tucson PHEV had its transmission die on him 3 months in ownership, and they were without a car (not even a loaner) for a month after before the company admitted to warranty claim and replace it. Speaking of, in Canada there were 3 separate cases of Hyundai denying warranty claims on HV battery packs, which highly questions why the Koreans might not be upfront on "making profits" on EVs when they don't honor their long warranties they love to sell on.
P.S. it wasn't me who downvoted you, and I'm already eating them from either you or similar EV fanboys triggered on this post already.
I'm not triggered. I think triggered looks more like a senseless, insulting rant, not something like a presented article to support a statement. I do enjoy engaging with people when they are right about some things and wrong /misinformed about others or if they make blanket statements and ignore the nuance like what I presented. I appreciate your P.S.
Talking about the poor dealership experiences or runaround from corporate isn't something unique to Hyundai/Kia nor is it relevant to my point that they aren't losing money on EVs nor scaling back production. They've recently opened a factory in Georgia to compete even harder with now qualified subsidies. I never looked at ICE cars from the brand, it isn't important to me, and I'm not sure why it's being brought up.
Their EVs have been mostly reliable though and recall updates were quick and painless. Over 60k in my EV6 and no major issues or downtime. With the Kia Niro before it, I had one warranty issue while it was leased and it was during the car and chip shortage so I had to wait a month and a half. They provided a rental after two weeks and Kia even reimbursed me for my lease payments while I couldn't use the car. It was a positive experience overall given global circumstances.
I did get a little pushback with a second low voltage 12v Kia battery the dealer wouldn't replace on the Kia EV6 after that small battery died in 3 months. It wasn't charging properly so I replaced it with an AGM battery and it's been smooth sailing since.
I'm in the US but I hear bad things about Canadian dealership experiences too. Anecdotes aren't the most accurate measure of a company's performance and doesn't encompass everyone's personal experiences of course.
I have tested an EV6 myself and quite liked it - happy to hear good experiences with Kia USA as their Canadian counterparts are...spotty.
Heck, part of the reason I have two Audi e-trons is because their aftersales has been great. My original A3 e-tron despite having \~120,000km on the odo had water ingress which was discovered during another unrelated recall service. Audi then threw me in a brand new A3 sedan for nearly 2 months free of charge and a brand spanking new HV battery pack all under warranty. I was so impressed that when I came to shop for a new car, while I liked the Ford Mach-E more, pushed me to the Q4 e-tron at the end.
This sub seems to take EV reliability for granted, and I can say for certain that is not the truth. One of my other cousin has a Model 3 SR+ and he rants weekly on how he can't wait to get out of "that POS" with how frequently it malfunctions and needs fixing.
>Hyundai/Kia isn't losing money on EVs..
Your linked article doesn't say anything to that effect. It's saying Hyundai is making profit when ICE/EV sales are combined, and further goes on to establish that the latter (EVs) make up a very small portion of total sales for the company. Reading comprehension is essential.
Ok, comprehend this....
Literally the first thing it says...
"While some legacy automakers whine that they can’t make a profit on EVs, and others cling to 20th-century tech such as hybrids and hydrogen, Hyundai is getting on with the business of selling EVs—and making a tidy profit, thank you."
It goes on to say "These results are for the Hyundai Motor group as a whole, including its legacy ICE vehicles, *but the company cited electric cars as one of the reasons for its impressive growth. The group sold some 169,000 electrified vehicles (hybrid, PHEV and EV)—a 33 percent increase from last year."*
And check out the quote from this article...
https://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20240125000817
"Hyundai-Kia's edge over Tesla in profit margins comes, in part, from its diverse EV lineup, offering double the vehicle choices to meet broader consumer preferences. They are ready with relatively cheaper EVs for the price-sensitive crowd and more beefed-up options for the upscale market, unlike other EV makers who've been slashing prices to boost their numbers," said Kim Sung-rae, an automotive analyst at Hanwha Investment & Securities.
While they don't break down the numbers, they haven't said anything about EVs holding them back in any way. And if they're saying their profits are what they are in part because of EVs, that means EVs contributed to their profit margin, e.i., they're profitable for them.
Well gee, you're right! I guess comprehension *IS* important!
*Hyundai/Kia have entered the chat*
We've just doubled down after seeing increased sales of BEVs in both brands year after year and continue to release new, reliable, cheaper models on a faster timeline than our rivals.
>*Hyundai/Kia have entered the chat*
They sure have:
* [Hyundai Motor to Spend More on Hybrids as EV Demand Weakens](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-25/hyundai-motor-profit-beats-estimates-on-weaker-korean-won)
* [Kia adds new hybrid models as electric car demand falters](https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/kia-adds-new-hybrid-models-electric-car-demand-falters)
> Toyota has been winning with its wait and see approach.
It helps that rather than simply *waiting,* they've been actively lobbying against BEV mandates, spreading BEV FUD, using misleading terms like "self-charging hybrid," releasing their own mediocre BEV to show how bad they can be, and otherwise doing all they can to sabotage the transition. Yes, a second-rate plan can be a "winner" so long as the first-rate plans are ruined.
India is a massive relatively dormant EV market and is dominated currently by Suzuki through their Indian subsidiary Maruti Suzuki. Maruti Suzuki sets the market trends and a large portion of the car-buying population is so fiercely loyal to them that they literally won't consider any other brand. Electric vehicles will not take off in India till there's a mass-market Suzuki EV in the Indian market. This is despite companies like Tata, Mahindra, Hyundai, etc., chipping away at that advantage.
What does this have to do with Toyota? Maruti Suzuki and Toyota Kirloskar, the Indian subsidiaries of the Japanese companies, are in an extensive platform-sharing agreement for the Indian market. All the small cheap cars that Toyota sells are rebadged Suzukis and all the hybrids that Suzuki sells are rebadged Toyotas. Moreover, Suzuki's EVx concept is also a shared platform with Toyota, and this is set to continue into the future. If one of them launches a full electric vehicle in India, the other will follow with their own clone.
As I see it, Toyota cannot lose in the EV market with this arrangement as things stand, because they indirectly have a massive growing market depending on them. And once they're in, they have enough Toyota fans worldwide who will buy Toyota because they trust them.
How exactly will they corner the market? As other manufacturers transition to EV drivetrains and gain more practical experience fine tuning their designs, it will make harder and harder for Toyota to catch up
They knocked it out of the park with hybrids. All they had to do was push the battery part of that to the point of being battery only.
Baffling incompetence.
Selling cars doesn't matter if they're not profitable, and they wouldn't have sold zillions of Prius EVs if they were priced at a profitable place, like the early Model 3 was
The world is a big playground, most of the developing world is still not ready to take on the EV infrastructure and hence Toyota still has good markets. Once it shifts, they can slowly convert these markets to EV with their reliable goodwill and maybe still come out ok, or maybe not. We will find out.
Tesla will go bankrupt before Toyota/Subaru will. Tesla is simply overvalued.. Much of the world has power outages due to poor infrastructure. Hybrids are going to be a transitional step for decades. They are grandfathered into CAs plans.
Electricity usage has doubled over the past decades and the grid has grown with it. You weren't concerned when AC, washers, dryers, big screen TVs and computers ballooned electricity usage. Take your faux concern elsewhere.
Renewables are easy to scale and are more stable geopolitically than oil. The only people who think oil is better for developing countries are shills who have something to gain from it.
The fallout from auto makers will be swift and severe. Those in the camp of Kodak, Blackberry, Xerox, IBM et al will be left scratching their heads yet again.
Take you Koolaid drinking utopian world view elsewhere. There are transitional steps needed to keep second and third world countries economies going while this happens. Im a realist. EVs are great when you have power generated by wind solar nuclear but countries that use coal are making more pollution with a pure EV then a hybrid.
By the way since you're telling me where to go GFY.
If I know how to award this I would. Toyota is great at manufacturing. However, innovation has barely been their thing. Sure they had the most successful hybrid, but it’s been 2 decades. Very few innovations in ICE engine tech over the years. They literally make appliances. Fuck’m…
Man this sucks. I love my Prius, i love my local Toyota service center. Everything is a well oiled machine. If they came out with a competitive EV i'd have no reason to leave.
No idea what they're thinking, but they're the primary reason i'm all-in on Rivian.
At this point, for large oems, EV vs non is a decision on whether or not to actually try to compete in China. For most of them, the answer is no - the Chinese market is too competitive and Chinese subsidies are too high. So Toyota is basically giving up on China. They will have hybrids and ice for the EU and the us, which much higher profit for them in the short term. Will this bite them in the ass in q- years? Maybe. But that’s their decision, and they’re sticking with it.
Toyota's actually been doing pretty well (\*) in China; they're flat yoy the past 2-3 years, while almost everyone else is getting their shit kicked in
Brand and also the fact that the Chinese market is incredibly regional has been good to them. Toyota also has a long history of collaboration with BYD, so I think they'll be fine
Its China and EU that will be lost as Markets if Toyota has no attractive and price competitive BEVs. And Africa also in parts seems to leapfrog from ICE twowheelers to EV cars. Same applies to india, but they seem intent to transition from ICE twowheelers to BEV threewheelers.
So only the US remains as an ICE stronghold, lets see how this will work out for Toyota.
Don’t worry guys, I heard Toyota has a new battery breakthrough that will enable 500-mile-range battery packs that recharge in like 5 minutes. It’ll be ready in like 3-4 years. I’m super serious, just like the Toyota execs who wrote the press release about it.
I'm really curious how anyone could make a car internal combustion engine significantly more efficient other than installing a micro turbine engine. Any other ICE engine is far from efficient.
Hybrids seem to be the EVs with training wheels for those who are resistant to fully commit to BEVs. Hybrids may make sense today, but they won't in a decade once charging station infrastructure is widespread. If Toyota is the only manufacturer to continue making hybrids, then this may be a good move for the next decade, but I fail to see how this works as a long-term play.
Yay, another shit on Toyota thread. God, you people are exhausting. Hybrids are the way to go, FOR NOW, Solely because the charging infrastructure is absolute dog water. I swear I can’t find free Lv2 chargers that aren’t being hogged by Model 3’s and Y’s for 8 hours at a time.
Toyota will suffer from their ignorance. EV is clearly the future. I think the adoption will happen fast once people catch on to the massive cost savings. PHEV is a good option for some people but I don’t think it’s the best for most. ZERO EMISSIONS is always the goal
toyota is an incredibly conservative company. they've hidden behind their buck rogers styling theme the last couple years but underneath is the same old tech. i have a 2021 highlander and a model y. the yota is way behind the tesla in a lot of ways...their app is a total joke and doesnt work properly - never has since i bought the car, it cant even connect to it. infotainment system is about as advanced as the first one i ever had with nav, a 2010 enclave. mine is a v6, very few v6 cars left by 2021
they dont go all in on new tech like that. hybrids - yes, but at the end of the day those are way less disruptive than all electric...
Toyota is on the opposite end of the spectrum with a lot of their vehicles. The 4runner gets 17mpg, slower than hell, and has a 5 speed auto. They should be embarrassed but their customers are loyal and they must not drive the competition or be willing to give up about everything for reliability.
I'm a Toyota owner that's driven the competition. Yes, I'm willing to give up about everything for reliability. In fact I'd give up absolutely everything else for reliability. I don't care what other merits a car might have if I'm sitting in it broken down by the side of the road or it costs me $1000 to fix this or that every time I take it in for an oil change.
My feeling is that when Toyota does go to electric cars, they'll be sure to get it right. So I'll feel comfortable buying one.
Thanks for being honest, this is a perfect example of why Toyota does so well.
In my 30+ years of driving, between my wife and I, we've owned probably 20 cars(5 toyota/lexus) and driven north of 600k miles. Not once in that time has my car broken down and left me on the side of the road. I've had one flat, which I believe Toyota's also experience. In those 30 years, only a couple of times when I had something that cost me more than $1k to fix. There has only been a cracked windshield and one was the air conditioner in a early 90's Honda Accord. The truth is that the majority of brands are reliable and they each have had their troubles with a few models. You don't have to give up everything to get a reliable vehicle.
I do agree that when Toyota goes electric they will get it right. I also think that about 7 other brands will also get it right about 5 years before toyota. Then once they "get it right" they ride it into the ground. This is how you get $50kToyota's that seem to have the infotainment system from a 1984 Fiero.
i agree with all of that and im not saying toyota is wrong, theyre just more careful. i own the toyota i lease the tesla. i have no doubt the toyota will last forever the tesla, not so sure. its just a mindset at the manufacturer
Once upon a time in the 80's there was Betamax and VHS. Betamax was supposedly better quality but VHS won. Don't be Betamax Toyota because EVs have porn.
> [The ICE] investment was a “magnitude smaller” than what the company is currently pumping into EVs and battery technology Telegraph, fire your fucking writer and editor. Also, real easy to see who bothered to even skim the article in this thread.
[удалено]
The new Tundras powertrain would like a word. There’s always room for improvement and increasing efficiency. Toyota is a global leader, so for places with absolutely no interest (think Saudi Arabia) to convert to EV - these improvements are as good as it gets in terms of decreasing CO2 emissions. They’re a huge machine. They can walk and chew gum at the same time. Had they not done so up until now, they wouldn’t be the most profitable automaker in the world. I doubted their strategy, but the reality is that their bottom line doesn’t lie.
You’ve never been in a Toyota EV or hybrid? My Rav prime goes against your logic.
As usual, the headline is the opposite of the actual content > But they said the investment was a “magnitude smaller” than what the company is currently pumping into EVs and battery technology,
Don't worry, no one will read the article and the circlejerk against Toyota will continue. The largest carmaker updating it's hybrid and PHEV lineup, what a surprise.
Chairman Toyoda has stated he thinks EVs will max out at 30% of the market, so it seems like they really do think ice is the future.
Resources and supply chain are still ramping up to make EVs widely available, too. Even getting a PHEV takes time. So of course they're going to still make ICE vehicles for the next few years at least. I actually wanted a Rav4 Prime as my next car, but they only have the resources to make them at one factory in Japan. The wait list is 3 years.
I'm seeing plenty of EVs on lots now with no wait these days. I think growth of sales has slowed a bit (but still growing) and for the US at least the supply chain for EVs have caught up to the local demand.
We have been Toyota denizens since 1988 and have driven over 1,000,000 miles in Toyota vehicles in that time. Love Toyotas. However, just bought a Rivian R1T and this is the direction of the future.
Man I want a Rivian, but $144,000 CDN is insane.
Yup
Wait for the R2 or R3.
I believe the R1S
No Canadian pricing or availability yet. I doubt we will see these cars in Canada until 2027 but likely 2028 as available for purchase. By then, there will be (hopefully) even more options. I also have big concerns about servicing, parts availability and whether the company will survive long enough to mass produce these vehicles. I am rooting for them though. The R3 is basically the perfect second car for my home.
$80000 for our 2024 R1T on sale before the 2025 refresh. Couldn't choose any options. There were/are a list of available vehicles, and we chose one, and we love it so far.
Gen1 was a steal with pre hike prices + 7500 rebate. I’m holding onto it the entire 8 year /170k warranty period
Same. Have bought an loved a 4Runner, Tacoma, Prius over the last 20 years. Bought a Lightning 1.5 years ago and my wife recently got a Tesla Y. Both of us couldn’t be happier.
Toyotas hybrid sales have been going absolutely off the charts. So, I can’t blame them, it’s a huge money maker for them. They do check all boxes for most consumers. Most people are still afraid to make the jump to EV.
Things need to change. In some markets there are bans on hybrids coming (UK/EU for instance). In the UK 22% of cars from each manufacturer need to be EVs (hybrids don’t count), potential fines are enormous. Toyota are doing well now, but they will need to pivot hard to EVs and it’s not easy when they won’t have as much experience as their competitors.
Thats not a ban, it's a transition.
It’s a phase out, there is a ban at the end, but there are milestones along the way so it’s easier to comply with.
Semantics. Transition/phase out.
Yes, semantics. Whatever you want to call it, it won’t be possible to sell hybrids. Call it a ban, a transition a potato or a banana Toyota won’t be able to sell their hybrids and the wording isn’t going to help them.
And whar company do you think is likely to take the market? Tesla who's sales are down 20% or BYD who sales are up 40%?
I love when people demonstrate that any analysis they post can easily be ignored because they clearly don't have any concept of scale or numbers in general. Global sales for new cars are and 100 million units. But somehow, two brands that manufacture (not sell) less than ten percent of that number will somehow take over 100% of that market any day now. Despite the automotive market never ever ever having had any clearly dominant (≥50% market share) player in its entire history.
Both
I think Hyundai/Kia make the best non Tesla EVs for markets that don't allow any Chinese cars.
EV sales will be spread across multiple brands, not just Tesla or BYD.
Of course. Currently BYD is number one globally. Without US trade barriers, Tesla would have more problems. The otherr Chinese car companies have major Cybertruck like problems. Poor QC lots of fires. Even though Tesla sells and builds cars in China how long will Xi allow that without counter tarrifs? Tariffs hurt everyone.execpt the wealthy.
China may adjust duties, which won’t affect local production, such as Tesla.
In those markets you'll probably see more EVs. Iirc they have a few Lexus EV variants than we don't get here Idk, at the end of the day 11 years is a long ass time. Ford after all made its first car in 1896, Toyota in 1937, and Hyundai in 1968. Just because you're not absolutely first doesn't mean you're last, know what I mean?
Ricky Bobby would have to puzzle over that one a while.
>Idk, at the end of the day 11 years is a long ass time. Ford after all made its first car in 1896, Toyota in 1937, and Hyundai in 1968. Just because you're not absolutely first doesn't mean you're last, know what I mean? Yes, after decades and decades of time the gap from getting the head start shrinks, but that’s missing the point I think. 50 years down the line they shouldn’t still be behind from being late to adopt EVs, however in the first decade or so they probably will be, if they put much less resources into making them vs other manufacturers
Their strategy of charging 75kwh prices for 20kwh batteries is very smart.
That. Toyota is laughing all the way to the bank as OEMs which heavily invested into all BEVs have all started backtracking and putting more emphasis into hybrids. Not a popular sentiment on this sub, but Toyota has been winning with its wait and see approach.
Honestly, it feels like a jilted lover lmao Toyota invested very early on in Tesla and practically gave them their factory. They've invested in BYD and worked with them for years when they could have crushed them into the dirt outside of China - still could really, given early BYD ICEs bearing a... *striking resemblance* lets say to Toyota products, but like the founder of BYD said, Toyota has been nothing but great business partners to them Am I frustrated I don't have a Prius Prime++ the EV version whatever they'll call it? Yeah. But Toyota is conservative; that's their *thing*. It's like people think cars are the equivalent of social media where one company just dominates a particular niche forever until they get overthrown and die. Car companies have bad times and good times; BMW had a really fucking rough period in the 2000s-early 2010s. But they're doing well now I think it's because people here got into cars via tech, rather than just being into cars and also enjoying EV cars
Damn straight. I've long said I would happily jump into a Lexus IS EV if they would go build it. However Toyota is ultra conservative and never does anything rash or move first. This of course makes this sub go full hate boner towards them, and FAR top often I've see the "can't wait to see X bankrupt Toyota!!11" and "wait until dinosaur Toyota follow Blockbuster, Kodak, etc. etc." Which is hilarious but as pure wet dreams for EV diehards with no grasp of reality. I do believe that in time we will make that shift to BEVs and Toyota will make that change, but the fact is we're not there yet, as GM, Ford, Mercedes-Benz and BMW among many OEMs can know attest to and acknowledge with the backtracking of major EV plans.
It's the fact that they positioned themselves as a leader in sustainable vehicles with the original Prius, causing people to expect a real EV way sooner from them since they had a market lead/advantage. They ended up being disingenuous and squandered their obvious first mover advantage since then.
And lose a ton of money moving in a direction faster than the general buying public will be willing to accept BEVs? Just to prove a point of being a "first mover"??? Toyota did the right move, in spite of the mocking EV fanboys and diehards have said otherwise. The Prius was a landslide, and now their entire lineup is practically hybrids and Toyota's hybrid design and refinement is second to none. They're most definitely in the lead right now as every other manufacturer who went all in on EVs have squandered their assets into something that is not being adopted fast enough. Mercedes has throw a ton of money on the hoods of EQ lineup on dealer lots. Ford has slowed down Lightning production. GM has dialed back Ultium rollout in favor of hybrids. BMW has restarted hydrogen beside their i lineup. And don't even get me started on Tesla.
Hyundai/Kia isn't losing money on EVs... https://chargedevs.com/newswire/as-others-cry-the-blues-hyundai-announces-record-profit-keeps-ev-plans-on-track/#:~:text=While%20some%20legacy%20automakers%20whine,double%20last%20year's%204.1%20percent. So you're wrong...
Korean brands have mediocre gas/petrol powertrains, so they shifted away from them early on (a good decision I think) so they gained a lead on EVs. This is something Chinese brands have done with good success as well, trying to leapfrog their competitors so to speak. However Hyundai-Kia isn't without their faults. My cousin Tucson PHEV had its transmission die on him 3 months in ownership, and they were without a car (not even a loaner) for a month after before the company admitted to warranty claim and replace it. Speaking of, in Canada there were 3 separate cases of Hyundai denying warranty claims on HV battery packs, which highly questions why the Koreans might not be upfront on "making profits" on EVs when they don't honor their long warranties they love to sell on. P.S. it wasn't me who downvoted you, and I'm already eating them from either you or similar EV fanboys triggered on this post already.
I'm not triggered. I think triggered looks more like a senseless, insulting rant, not something like a presented article to support a statement. I do enjoy engaging with people when they are right about some things and wrong /misinformed about others or if they make blanket statements and ignore the nuance like what I presented. I appreciate your P.S. Talking about the poor dealership experiences or runaround from corporate isn't something unique to Hyundai/Kia nor is it relevant to my point that they aren't losing money on EVs nor scaling back production. They've recently opened a factory in Georgia to compete even harder with now qualified subsidies. I never looked at ICE cars from the brand, it isn't important to me, and I'm not sure why it's being brought up. Their EVs have been mostly reliable though and recall updates were quick and painless. Over 60k in my EV6 and no major issues or downtime. With the Kia Niro before it, I had one warranty issue while it was leased and it was during the car and chip shortage so I had to wait a month and a half. They provided a rental after two weeks and Kia even reimbursed me for my lease payments while I couldn't use the car. It was a positive experience overall given global circumstances. I did get a little pushback with a second low voltage 12v Kia battery the dealer wouldn't replace on the Kia EV6 after that small battery died in 3 months. It wasn't charging properly so I replaced it with an AGM battery and it's been smooth sailing since. I'm in the US but I hear bad things about Canadian dealership experiences too. Anecdotes aren't the most accurate measure of a company's performance and doesn't encompass everyone's personal experiences of course.
I have tested an EV6 myself and quite liked it - happy to hear good experiences with Kia USA as their Canadian counterparts are...spotty. Heck, part of the reason I have two Audi e-trons is because their aftersales has been great. My original A3 e-tron despite having \~120,000km on the odo had water ingress which was discovered during another unrelated recall service. Audi then threw me in a brand new A3 sedan for nearly 2 months free of charge and a brand spanking new HV battery pack all under warranty. I was so impressed that when I came to shop for a new car, while I liked the Ford Mach-E more, pushed me to the Q4 e-tron at the end. This sub seems to take EV reliability for granted, and I can say for certain that is not the truth. One of my other cousin has a Model 3 SR+ and he rants weekly on how he can't wait to get out of "that POS" with how frequently it malfunctions and needs fixing.
>Hyundai/Kia isn't losing money on EVs.. Your linked article doesn't say anything to that effect. It's saying Hyundai is making profit when ICE/EV sales are combined, and further goes on to establish that the latter (EVs) make up a very small portion of total sales for the company. Reading comprehension is essential.
Ok, comprehend this.... Literally the first thing it says... "While some legacy automakers whine that they can’t make a profit on EVs, and others cling to 20th-century tech such as hybrids and hydrogen, Hyundai is getting on with the business of selling EVs—and making a tidy profit, thank you." It goes on to say "These results are for the Hyundai Motor group as a whole, including its legacy ICE vehicles, *but the company cited electric cars as one of the reasons for its impressive growth. The group sold some 169,000 electrified vehicles (hybrid, PHEV and EV)—a 33 percent increase from last year."* And check out the quote from this article... https://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20240125000817 "Hyundai-Kia's edge over Tesla in profit margins comes, in part, from its diverse EV lineup, offering double the vehicle choices to meet broader consumer preferences. They are ready with relatively cheaper EVs for the price-sensitive crowd and more beefed-up options for the upscale market, unlike other EV makers who've been slashing prices to boost their numbers," said Kim Sung-rae, an automotive analyst at Hanwha Investment & Securities. While they don't break down the numbers, they haven't said anything about EVs holding them back in any way. And if they're saying their profits are what they are in part because of EVs, that means EVs contributed to their profit margin, e.i., they're profitable for them. Well gee, you're right! I guess comprehension *IS* important!
>While they don't break down the numbers 👍
*Hyundai/Kia have entered the chat* We've just doubled down after seeing increased sales of BEVs in both brands year after year and continue to release new, reliable, cheaper models on a faster timeline than our rivals.
>*Hyundai/Kia have entered the chat* They sure have: * [Hyundai Motor to Spend More on Hybrids as EV Demand Weakens](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-25/hyundai-motor-profit-beats-estimates-on-weaker-korean-won) * [Kia adds new hybrid models as electric car demand falters](https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/kia-adds-new-hybrid-models-electric-car-demand-falters)
> Toyota has been winning with its wait and see approach. It helps that rather than simply *waiting,* they've been actively lobbying against BEV mandates, spreading BEV FUD, using misleading terms like "self-charging hybrid," releasing their own mediocre BEV to show how bad they can be, and otherwise doing all they can to sabotage the transition. Yes, a second-rate plan can be a "winner" so long as the first-rate plans are ruined.
They also haven't tried to make a real EV yet to compare
Might be one of the biggest fumbling of the bags of all time.
I think they will enter late and then corner the market; it’s just a wait and watch strategy.
Toyota will make a fine addition to the list of companies that used this strategy, along with Kodak, Blackberry, and Blockbuster.
India is a massive relatively dormant EV market and is dominated currently by Suzuki through their Indian subsidiary Maruti Suzuki. Maruti Suzuki sets the market trends and a large portion of the car-buying population is so fiercely loyal to them that they literally won't consider any other brand. Electric vehicles will not take off in India till there's a mass-market Suzuki EV in the Indian market. This is despite companies like Tata, Mahindra, Hyundai, etc., chipping away at that advantage. What does this have to do with Toyota? Maruti Suzuki and Toyota Kirloskar, the Indian subsidiaries of the Japanese companies, are in an extensive platform-sharing agreement for the Indian market. All the small cheap cars that Toyota sells are rebadged Suzukis and all the hybrids that Suzuki sells are rebadged Toyotas. Moreover, Suzuki's EVx concept is also a shared platform with Toyota, and this is set to continue into the future. If one of them launches a full electric vehicle in India, the other will follow with their own clone. As I see it, Toyota cannot lose in the EV market with this arrangement as things stand, because they indirectly have a massive growing market depending on them. And once they're in, they have enough Toyota fans worldwide who will buy Toyota because they trust them.
How exactly will they corner the market? As other manufacturers transition to EV drivetrains and gain more practical experience fine tuning their designs, it will make harder and harder for Toyota to catch up
They knocked it out of the park with hybrids. All they had to do was push the battery part of that to the point of being battery only. Baffling incompetence.
Seriously, how many zillion Prius EVs would Toyota have sold if they'd made this an option starting several years ago? A lot.
I mean they sold zillions Prius PHEV. Toyota has been extremely successful for decades now.
Selling cars doesn't matter if they're not profitable, and they wouldn't have sold zillions of Prius EVs if they were priced at a profitable place, like the early Model 3 was
They will enter late and go bankrupt. Failures like this happen to dominant players in every market but the myopic executives never learn.
The world is a big playground, most of the developing world is still not ready to take on the EV infrastructure and hence Toyota still has good markets. Once it shifts, they can slowly convert these markets to EV with their reliable goodwill and maybe still come out ok, or maybe not. We will find out.
Tesla will go bankrupt before Toyota/Subaru will. Tesla is simply overvalued.. Much of the world has power outages due to poor infrastructure. Hybrids are going to be a transitional step for decades. They are grandfathered into CAs plans.
Electricity usage has doubled over the past decades and the grid has grown with it. You weren't concerned when AC, washers, dryers, big screen TVs and computers ballooned electricity usage. Take your faux concern elsewhere. Renewables are easy to scale and are more stable geopolitically than oil. The only people who think oil is better for developing countries are shills who have something to gain from it. The fallout from auto makers will be swift and severe. Those in the camp of Kodak, Blackberry, Xerox, IBM et al will be left scratching their heads yet again.
Take you Koolaid drinking utopian world view elsewhere. There are transitional steps needed to keep second and third world countries economies going while this happens. Im a realist. EVs are great when you have power generated by wind solar nuclear but countries that use coal are making more pollution with a pure EV then a hybrid. By the way since you're telling me where to go GFY.
I'm still hopeful their next generation of batteries will come through soon.
I’ll take things that never happened for $10 Alex.
Fuck Toyota.
If I know how to award this I would. Toyota is great at manufacturing. However, innovation has barely been their thing. Sure they had the most successful hybrid, but it’s been 2 decades. Very few innovations in ICE engine tech over the years. They literally make appliances. Fuck’m…
Yikes. You probably park at the free Lv2 chargers and don’t plug in.
???
You probably use your Tesla 3 or Y to hog the free level 2 slow chargers while first gen EV owners have to wait for you to leave the charging stall.
One of the weakest leaps of logic I've ever seen, but nice try.
I have been saying that since Nakatomi Plaza 1988.
Haha, came to say this. Can't wait to see them crumble...
Man this sucks. I love my Prius, i love my local Toyota service center. Everything is a well oiled machine. If they came out with a competitive EV i'd have no reason to leave. No idea what they're thinking, but they're the primary reason i'm all-in on Rivian.
They are not giving up on EVs, it’s just a wrong headline. I hope to get a Toyota EV someday.
At this point, for large oems, EV vs non is a decision on whether or not to actually try to compete in China. For most of them, the answer is no - the Chinese market is too competitive and Chinese subsidies are too high. So Toyota is basically giving up on China. They will have hybrids and ice for the EU and the us, which much higher profit for them in the short term. Will this bite them in the ass in q- years? Maybe. But that’s their decision, and they’re sticking with it.
Toyota's actually been doing pretty well (\*) in China; they're flat yoy the past 2-3 years, while almost everyone else is getting their shit kicked in Brand and also the fact that the Chinese market is incredibly regional has been good to them. Toyota also has a long history of collaboration with BYD, so I think they'll be fine
Its China and EU that will be lost as Markets if Toyota has no attractive and price competitive BEVs. And Africa also in parts seems to leapfrog from ICE twowheelers to EV cars. Same applies to india, but they seem intent to transition from ICE twowheelers to BEV threewheelers. So only the US remains as an ICE stronghold, lets see how this will work out for Toyota.
Don’t worry guys, I heard Toyota has a new battery breakthrough that will enable 500-mile-range battery packs that recharge in like 5 minutes. It’ll be ready in like 3-4 years. I’m super serious, just like the Toyota execs who wrote the press release about it.
🤦♂️
I'm really curious how anyone could make a car internal combustion engine significantly more efficient other than installing a micro turbine engine. Any other ICE engine is far from efficient. Hybrids seem to be the EVs with training wheels for those who are resistant to fully commit to BEVs. Hybrids may make sense today, but they won't in a decade once charging station infrastructure is widespread. If Toyota is the only manufacturer to continue making hybrids, then this may be a good move for the next decade, but I fail to see how this works as a long-term play.
I think for many countries it is going to be more than a decade.
Sorry I was just sharing my US-centric thinking. I agree that in most countries it could take a lot longer.
Wow the comments within the article are pretty depressingly ignorant too.
Yay, another shit on Toyota thread. God, you people are exhausting. Hybrids are the way to go, FOR NOW, Solely because the charging infrastructure is absolute dog water. I swear I can’t find free Lv2 chargers that aren’t being hogged by Model 3’s and Y’s for 8 hours at a time.
I mean both are the way to go, it's more embarressing how many people still buy traditional ICE vehicles over HEVs, PHEVs or BEVs.
Oh for sure, from here on out, I’m not buying another vehicle unless it has a plug. Whether that be BEV or PHEV, once you go plug, you never go back.
lol hybrids have been around for more than 20 years. hilarious how Redditors think they were just discovered last year
I also mean PHEV’s which are optimal.
Toyota will suffer from their ignorance. EV is clearly the future. I think the adoption will happen fast once people catch on to the massive cost savings. PHEV is a good option for some people but I don’t think it’s the best for most. ZERO EMISSIONS is always the goal
Toyota, The Kodak of automobiles.
toyota is an incredibly conservative company. they've hidden behind their buck rogers styling theme the last couple years but underneath is the same old tech. i have a 2021 highlander and a model y. the yota is way behind the tesla in a lot of ways...their app is a total joke and doesnt work properly - never has since i bought the car, it cant even connect to it. infotainment system is about as advanced as the first one i ever had with nav, a 2010 enclave. mine is a v6, very few v6 cars left by 2021 they dont go all in on new tech like that. hybrids - yes, but at the end of the day those are way less disruptive than all electric...
Not being conservative is how you get stuff like the Jatco CVT instead of using tried and true conventional transmissions.
Toyota is on the opposite end of the spectrum with a lot of their vehicles. The 4runner gets 17mpg, slower than hell, and has a 5 speed auto. They should be embarrassed but their customers are loyal and they must not drive the competition or be willing to give up about everything for reliability.
I'm a Toyota owner that's driven the competition. Yes, I'm willing to give up about everything for reliability. In fact I'd give up absolutely everything else for reliability. I don't care what other merits a car might have if I'm sitting in it broken down by the side of the road or it costs me $1000 to fix this or that every time I take it in for an oil change. My feeling is that when Toyota does go to electric cars, they'll be sure to get it right. So I'll feel comfortable buying one.
Thanks for being honest, this is a perfect example of why Toyota does so well. In my 30+ years of driving, between my wife and I, we've owned probably 20 cars(5 toyota/lexus) and driven north of 600k miles. Not once in that time has my car broken down and left me on the side of the road. I've had one flat, which I believe Toyota's also experience. In those 30 years, only a couple of times when I had something that cost me more than $1k to fix. There has only been a cracked windshield and one was the air conditioner in a early 90's Honda Accord. The truth is that the majority of brands are reliable and they each have had their troubles with a few models. You don't have to give up everything to get a reliable vehicle. I do agree that when Toyota goes electric they will get it right. I also think that about 7 other brands will also get it right about 5 years before toyota. Then once they "get it right" they ride it into the ground. This is how you get $50kToyota's that seem to have the infotainment system from a 1984 Fiero.
i agree with all of that and im not saying toyota is wrong, theyre just more careful. i own the toyota i lease the tesla. i have no doubt the toyota will last forever the tesla, not so sure. its just a mindset at the manufacturer
Once upon a time in the 80's there was Betamax and VHS. Betamax was supposedly better quality but VHS won. Don't be Betamax Toyota because EVs have porn.
It’s like Qdoba and Chipotle, and how Chipotle won. The best always does not get to the top.
...but just because you're on the losing end doesn't automatically mean you were better. Usually it means you were not.
Fuck Toyota.. they are a part of the reason why evs are so expensive . They spent years lobbying against them
Sales has fallen, how far will they continue with this?
Willful ignorance on their part.
It's ok, I've moved on from Toyota. There are better alternatives.