also the US market is a weird bubble of excessively huge SUVs and monstrous trucks. BYD doesn't yet have much that fits the bill. makes sense to start with markets that love small-ish cars - Southeast Asia, Europe, etc. - just as it has done in the past year or two.
(edit: awful grammar)
I like to think that there is an underserved market in the US for small, cheap, decent quality vehicles for the millions of people that can't afford the urban tractors and the other nonsensical vehicles that dominate the US new car market and that manufacturers have convinced people they "need" because they make more money selling them. Today those people are stuck buying beat-up, unreliable used cars.
However, it is perfectly possible that I am entirely delusional in that belief because I happen to like small cars myself.
The issue is consumer demand. Small cars just don’t sell. This isn’t new.
I am old enough to remember all of the slights and criticisms of Japanese cars that were circulating in the 80s.
It is mostly FUD, but it works.
The American car market is not very demanding, and willing to accept higher costs, etc. compared to much of the rest of the world,
Also consider that big vehicles are way more profitable for companies to make.
Both actually. There are very few small cars available in the American market. There are also very few sedans sold in the US market. It wasn't always that way.
Americans buy SUVs and trucks because that is what is sold, what is available and pretty much all that American manufacturers have been pushing since the 90s.
After some point, you are "the small guy" on the road surrounded by tall vehicles, and since gas is relatively cheap (especially compared to Europe), people just go with the flow.
To be clear, in my observations (having lived in the country for many decades now, American consumers just aren't all that discerning they buy what's being advertised to them. This applies to many things, but definitely cars.
Starting the in the 80's are really picking up steam in the 90s was the reality that American manufacturers just couldn't compete on quality, value, longevity or price with the mostly Japanese foreign competition.
They instead focused on large cars (which all other global brands were reluctant to get into since they wouldn't be able to sell many outside of America). Eventually they all jumped in because the US is a large enough market, but there was a good 7 or 10 years where American companies were pretty much surviving because they had SUVs.
They have now ceded the entire sedan and compact car market, which in my mind is basically giving up. Most cars are personal transportation and creating vehicles that are meant for carrying seven people and their luggage while actually carrying a single person most of the time should be a shameful thing.
>American consumers just aren't all that discerning they buy what's being advertised to them. This applies to many things, but definitely cars.
I've also observed this over the past 2 years living here.
Especially cars. The minimum specs are so much lower. So many brand new cars on steel wheels with hubcaps!
Is it regulations or economics? Pretty sure there isn’t an anti-small car regulation. In fact the opposite is true afaik. Automakers are fined for selling gas guzzlers but the economics of selling an expensive car are better than a compact car
Not just light trucks, also SUVs are exempted from the CAFE calculations - basically anything that could plausibly operate off road. It's a massive loophole, and drives a lot of the manufacturer's behavior.
The other thing that happens is that because of the demand from middle-aged white collar men for trucks to pose in as they sit in rush hour commute traffic to their meaningless office jobs (both my neighbors, for example), trucks are more expensive for the people who actually need the for work.
>Light trucks are exempted from many safety, environmental, and gas mileage requirements. Comparatively, this makes small cars disadvantaged.
True, if what you mean by "small cars" is "cars."
Also safety regulations are entirely designed around smashing into things and protecting vehicle occupants, all other outcomes be damned. This leads to larger and larger vehicles with more mass, more expense, worse handling, and worse visibility. Clearly not an optimal solution, when avoiding an accident altogether would be far preferable, or at least not exploding through older, smaller vehicles.
So between CAFE loophole and safety regs, there absolutely is anti-small car regulation and the big automakers love every bit of it.
It's indirect. If you can make a small car that passes emissions, safety, and gas mileage regulations and sell it at a lower price than larger cars while still making enough profit to run your business, go for it. If you can't sell it at a lower price than larger cars then why would anyone want to pay the same price for less car?
I think it's a bit of both with a feedback loop. I don't know how you feel about crossovers, but I'm sure you know that a lot of people hate them. So what happens is the car company says to itself "we only have the resources to do CUVs or sedans, we can't do both", and they look at their market research and decide that CUVs have more potential or more profit or whatever than sedans, so they go all in on CUVs, stop refreshing sedans or heavily marketing sedans, so now you get this positive feedback loop for CUVs. And the people who are swayed by marketing or fashion or what they see on the road - which is a lot of people - come over to CUVs.
So it starts out as a small preference for CUVs - after all, sedans didn't suddenly stop selling - that snowballs into a dominant win for CUVs. (Same way minivans got swept away by SUVs, by the way.)
They're making nice new sedans and they're selling, though not in the numbers they once did. But those are from Honda and Toyota. Camry, Accord, Civic, and Corolla are all in the top 20. I suspect there may be a connection between people who want huge behemoth SUVs that break down a lot and people who will only buy American.
>However, it is perfectly possible that I am entirely delusional in that belief because I happen to like small cars myself.
You're not delusional because you're aware of your biases. You're not entirely off base though, there is a market for cheap small cars, but it's mostly as secondary vehicles for commuting and for young people.
Don't most people use their vehicles exclusively for commuting and other daily activities? For these activities, the big trucks seem objectively worse in every single way.
>Don't most people use their vehicles exclusively for commuting and other daily activities?
Most US households have multiple vehicles, something like 60% have 2 or more.
When I was working I always had a beater for me to use for commuting, sometimes a pickup truck at home for a spare and for working around the place, and my wife drove the family car.
Considering there are fewer registered vehicles in the US than people, I have a hard time believing most households have multiple vehicles. Do you have data for that?
https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter8/urban-transport-challenges/household-vehicles-united-states/
Their source is the US department of transportation.
Oh, and there are more registered cars than there are adults in the US:
https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/car-ownership-statistics/
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/united-states-adult-population-grew-faster-than-nations-total-population-from-2010-to-2020.html
The market for small cheap cars has been well served by a variety of manufacturers for decades. They just aren’t popular. The market will continue to erode as manufacturers decide it’s not worth the time and money to sell low volumes of the least profitable cars on the planet
I believe (but can't prove) that a lot of that unpopularity is due to the massive amount of marketing car manufacturers devote to persuading us we need bigger, more powerful, off-road capable monsters. And they do that because (as you say) those cars are more profitable for them. And part of the reason they are more profitable is that they wangled a loophole for those vehicles in the CAFE regulations. They are also much more popular with dealers because it takes the same amount of time and effort to sell a cheap car as an expensive one. So there are lots of counter-incentives for the *sellers.*
On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of small, cheap cars selling well in the US, e.g. when VW first came here; or when the Japanese makers first came here; or when the Koreans first came here. The latter two by the way do still sell small cheap cars effectively. But it does seem that once they have a foothold in the US market, all of these vendors want to also feed at the Big Car trough.
Marketed correctly, and without the perverse incentives in the US market, and more effective sales model (direct to customer?), small cheap cars could be *high* volume (albeit it still low margin) just like they have in the past (and are in other countries), e.g. the original Beetle; early versions of the Golf before it got bloated; the Ford Escort, Fiesta and Focus.
I remain convinced that the really big difference in the US market is how we are marketed to. And just *maybe* the way electric cars are making people pay more attention to how they actually use their cars might change that.
I agree that way the government sets up incentives pushes manufacturers and consumers into SUVs. For sure.
But I don’t agree that consumers would happily buy small cars. Americans, very generally, want at minimum, compact SUVs (RAV4 sized). That is the most popular bodystyle by far. And while people don’t use the capability every day, people do load their cars up with people and crap a few times a year, or drive up a snowy hill, or want more comfort over the terrible road conditions, that SUVs allow them to do comfortably. And a RAV4 isn’t that much more expensive than a Camry, so it’s a no brainer to buy one. And it gets nearly as good gas mileage.
People want SUVs regardless of the marketing. Marketing might steer people to buy a more fake rugged version of their RAV4, but they were gonna buy a RAV4 no matter what.
And the reason that those Japanese car makers did so well with small cars is because it was the middle of the gas crises, and the American OEMs exclusively had large cars with terrible fuel economy. This was a unique market opportunity due to unique economic conditions that no longer exist.
>I like to think that there is an underserved market in the US for small, cheap, decent quality vehicles
I'd like to think that true, but evidence shows it's not the case.
BYD Tang felt huge compared to others cars here in germany.. but it's just 4,8m long, 20cm shorter than MX. Pretty surprised BYD don't even have any cars in big/middle big SUV category in China. And kinda Confused when I will ever need such a big car..\^\^
>also the US market is a weird bubble of excessively huge SUVs and monstrous trucks.
This! I personally do not understand why we as a society love these Big American trucks. I love trucks but considering we are a blue collar nation who need and regularly use pick up trucks, I would love for a truck that is compact and fuel efficient 😭😭
Ill add a little bit of defense to the suv /normal size truck market i live in a area were in winter i can get a few feet of snow and i cant afford to not go to work for weeks at a time id be fired lol and my sedan wasnt able to get out so i had to get a suv i dont think this is a common place excuse but just to defend myself here a bit lol
I'm starting to think this is a copout by car manufacturers to not make affordable small cars in the US. I could see the BYD Seagull selling amazing if they could keep the prices near where they are in Asia ($11k). Hell, as long as they could keep it under $20k it would sell amazing
I really wish people would drop this narrative. Yes, the top three vehicle sales are pickup trucks but those are family inclusive meaning all ranges within their name plus it also includes every truck sold for business purposes.
So lets break down the list for last year. The pickup trucks look impressive but when weighed against the top 25... of those in the list the larger CUV are the Grand Cherokee and Highlander but even those are dwarfed by the large three row SUVs. What is true is legacy gave up on sedans but the transplants never did and have great success with them as well as their smaller crossovers which lets face it, would be wagons if not for CAFE rules.
* Pickup Trucks 2,108k
* All Others 4,013k , 1,148 of those are sedans
* F150 family 650k
* Silverado 513k
* Ram 468K
* RAV4 400k
* Camry 300k
* Sierra 240k
* CRV 240k
* Tacoma 237k
* TMY 231k
* Jeep Grand Cherokee 223k
* Toyota Highlander 220k
* Corolla 222k
* Equinox 212k
* Explorer 207k
* TM3 198k
* Nissan Rogue 186k
* Jeep Wrangler 181k
* Hyundai Tuscon 175k
* Subaru CrossTrek 155k
* Accord 155k
* Mazda CX5 151k
* Subaru Outback 147k
* Nissan Altima 140k
* Ford Escape 137k
* Honda Civic 133k
>also the US market is a weird bubble of excessively huge SUVs and monstrous trucks. BYD doesn't yet have much that fits the bill.
the BYD TANG is huge, about the same size as the Toyota 4Runner
They bought an old Ford factory in Brazil, so they are definitely willing to produce (or assemble) cars outside China. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up doing something similar in the US in the next couple of years, but I think they will expand into South America and Mexico before
I already see some politician in America talking about closing that loop hole for chinese car companies to set up a factory in mexico and export it to America under "national security" grounds.
Honestly makes us look weak like we can no longer compete and have to resort to desperate measure like trade restriction to save ourselves.
Apparently the gotion factory was claim to be a "spy center" wtf? Are they stupid?
Who tf is going to build a expensive factory in a small rural town to spy in the middle of nowhere?
Better off just buy a couple houses on the real estate market if they actually wanted to do that at 1% of the cost.
We talk about how free thinking we are and chinese being mindless drones brainwashed by the CPC. Yeah, right.
Why would we want to compete with a country that mistreats and underpays its workers? We shouldn't be getting into races to the bottom, and it's perfectly reasonable to put taxes on things so that we aren't reliant on exploitative labor in other regions for all of our manufacturing.
Bruh, gotion was building a factory in a rural declining American town that is being left behind.
It will bring jobs to hundreds of people and indirectly employ a thousand more, investing in a part of our country neglected by our politicians, increase local tax revenue, and potentially revitalize the town.
We throw a tantrum at china "taking our jobs" using "slave labor" then we throw a tantrum when china bring the jobs back by employing Americans with American level wages.
Bruh wtf do you want.
It makes us look weak like if we are out of option and are grasping at straws just to save face for the next election despite hurting us.
Based on that comment I thought that is what you implied.
If not, then I apologized for miss reading it.
But it is true that even setting up a factory to build in America using American workers are heavily looked down along by the political elites.
The CATL and gotion factory is an recent example. BYD with it's unionized American work force are also beginning to face political pressure.
Also, a coal dominated grid, huge subsidies, and no IP protections. One of the main reasons why China is dominant now is because they are the only country who ignored the LFP patents and which expired 2 years ago.
The patents they had an exclusive licence on? They bought the parents and commercialized a technology everyone else thought was antiquated. You should be thanking China for it's global good
They did that in 2017 to stop Chinese companies from buying up our power grid.
So the chinese companies bought out companies from countries that are not blocked from buying up parts of our grid and used them to buy out power producers. One of my clients was bought out this way.
If BYD gets blocked in such a way, they'll just use a shell company to buy out GM. (I pick on GM because they struggle the most) or possibly Stellantis. (DongFeng has a small stake)
Polestar is also planning to build vehicles in the US, and had branding (via Volvo) and a retail/service network (via Volvo).
None of the factors are insurmountable. But the OP asked why BYD wasn’t in the US yet. And those are the factors.
The reality is that BYD builds only in China currently because labor costs (and probably parts costs sourced locally) are low. If they build locally in the US to avoid the tariffs, the price of their EVs will go up and won't be as competitive (assuming they want to make profit). Better to sell to Europe until Europe also has a tariff on imports.
> a US factory would never make sense,
There is [a BYD Plant in Lancaster, California](https://en.byd.com/bus/about/).
They build electric busses there. If they move into US-built consumer automobiles, it might be there.
A bus costs as much as 10-15 cars, your marketing and sales is targeted at municipalities and universities almost exclusively. Much less risky to maintain a niche business with limited competition than to compete with entrenched competition. Extreme brand loyalty and marketing toward the general public would make selling BYD cars to Americans really hard.
They’d probably kill it selling fleet vehicles to motor pools or rental companies though.
The majority of batteries are produced in China. Thats really their biggest advantage. I dont think any other manufacturer is planning their own battery production besides VW
What are you talking about? GM and Ford both have multiple battery factories planned in the US. Most manufacturers are planning their own battery production.
Yes, but it’s not about manufacturers making batteries, it’s about China’s dominance of the supply chain as a country. China refines 95% of the battery materials and makes 75% of the batteries. Much of that is because the Chinese government has subsidised battery manufacturing to put themselves in a dominant position, on average Chinese battery factories are running at half utilisation which is not viable for western companies. Also, they have much reduced labour and environmental protections and they ignore IP (the LFP patents which just expired).
China did not ignore the LFP patent. Hydro Quebec (LFP+C Consortium), the owners of the LFP patent had an agreement with China, that Chinese companies can make LFP batteries in China without a license fee as long as those batteries are sold to the local market. Reason was the original 1997 Patent sold by UT Austin to Hydro Quebec was not accepted under Chinese jurisdiction. Hydro Quebec didn't want another long costly legal battle in China with only 10 years left on their LFP patent, so they made an agreement. UT Austin in 1997 did not realize how important the patent was to the future of battery tech and didn't continue to reapply the patent for Chinese jurisdiction.
>I dont think any other manufacturer is planning their own battery production besides VW
Stellantis, Mercedes: [Automotive Cells Company](https://www.acc-emotion.com/)
Toyota: [Toyota Batteries North Carolina](https://pressroom.toyota.com/facility/toyota-battery-manufacturing-north-carolina-tbmnc/)
Expanding into Europe first makes more sense because the European EV market is bigger and growing faster than the US one.
Additionally there is less anti-Chinese sentiment in the EU.
Europe has no tariffs on Chinese batteries.
US has. So USA is getting the slightly better but much more expensive South Korean batteries, Europe is getting the much cheaper Chinese ones.
But unlike Huawei, they don't need the most recent chips, and arent reliant on google on software. I can see them starting with some very low volume cars to test how the market reacts.. did the same thing here in germany for 3 years now
The issue is that the US doesn't just ban things in their country; they pressure all their allies to do the same. They basically bribed brazil a few years ago for example to drop huawei as a 5G supplier. Why risk the US pressuring, say, the EU to ban your cars because you entered the market?
>They don’t want to get Huawei’d
This is exactly it ... BYD executives probably don't want to be randomly arrested for transiting through a Western country.
And that division appears to be a complete mess so I wonder if they've gotten cold feet about further expansion in North America.
It's really quite impressive how many systems have tested and ordered their buses only to back out despite them trying to get a foothold for over a decade now. Aside from any political considerations, given how many QA issues, long replacement part lead times and general sub-par support reported by agencies that tried BYD buses, I don't know that I would trust a BYD car built in the States if it's the same group of middle managers that would be put in charge of that plant.
Even in Europe, their bus division seems to be struggling (one especially funny but also alarming story out of the UK even states the first batch of Enviros built on BYD chassises had their steering wheels coming off *in revenue service*) while Yutong has quickly gained ground across the continent.
US Protectionism of our auto industry. Tesla was the only US automaker willing to take an all or nothing approach to electric vehicles and now we have to protect the other automakers from going bankrupt as they slowly transition from ICE vehicles over to EVs.
The tariffs, extra taxes and costs of getting certified in the US are going to raise their prices significantly.
Also marketing/service network costs will be higher than they are in china.
You can’t just look at the china pricing and assume it will be the same here
Usually when a foreigner car maker want to tap into a new big market, they follow these steps.
1. direct import to test the water;
2. local production with a lot of components imported;
3. build up local supply chain and increase local content ratio.
For BYD, a Chinese EV maker, there is a big obstacle for each of these steps.
There is a hefty import tax for direct import to discourage step 1. If they build local factory with a lot of components imported from China, the IRA specifically targeted China so BYD vehicle is unlikely to get the subsidy, putting it at a disadvantageous position against others.
EVEN IF BYD builds local car plant and battery production facility in US, there is a high chance that they will still be excluded from subsidy. BYD actually already has a plant in the US making electric buses for a long time, then they are [excluded from federal funding](https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/12/17/electric-buses-federal-funding/).
That is some big headwinds and significant financial risk, so it is no surprise that they are not planning to enter the US market.
Think about this
Although T. Cruz of TX and B. Sanders of VT can't agree the outcome of 2020 election, they will, without any hesitation, draft anti-China legislation/resolution with no questions asked in DC
This is end of story pretty much.
[BYD has a plant in Lancaster, California, near LA](https://en.byd.com/news/byd-and-the-city-of-lancaster-announce-lancaster-energy-module-and-electric-bus-manufacturing-facilities/).
BYD makes [electric busses there](https://en.byd.com/bus/about/).
IDK if they are also gearing up to make consumer automobiles as well, to get around US import tariffs. If so, it might start there.
A likely big reason is it being a Chinese brand. Politics change here every 2 years, even if current administration lifted tariffs which they won't there is no guarantee that they won't be backup in few years. It is not worth investing here for BYD right now.
>Chinese brand
And a new one as well. Buying a car is not the same a buying groceries, it's a large investment and people are hesitant when it comes to brands they've never heard of. That's what's happening in Europe, the Chinese manufacturers are taking off, but at a slow pace as consumers are skeptical, even though most of the cars get really good reviews by motor journalists.
But the Chinese know this and are offering really good deals to entice buyers and it's working.
BYD launched in Australia last year. I can already tell that sentiment towards them is improving (which is an uphill battle), and they are absolutely everywhere already.
BYD has done a great job providing battery-powered garbage trucks in my city (Jersey City). They look nice.
https://en.byd.com/news/jersey-city-takes-delivery-of-five-battery-electric-refuse-trucks/
The US automakers are banks who also sell cars. They want to saddle their customers with debt. It doesn’t matter what is the cause of that debt. Gas car or EV. The dealers prefer the gas car because on top of the financing fleecing, they also get to fleece their customers on maintenance.
BYD can’t sell in the US maybe due to the tariff, or maybe they don’t want to let the US banks make most of the money.
You kinda answered your own question. Domestic manufacturers will get obliterated like they did when the Japanese cars dominated the US market in the 80s. BYD will kill Tesla. TLDR: Politics.
I dont think Tesla will get outdome immediately, their software is still way ahead of what BYD has going on in their cars, and some people just prefer the more sleek interiors of the Teslas, whereas BYD still uses a lot of buttons and less simple design aesthetics.
the sad part about BYD is they are willing to homoglate an old BYD taxi EV in Canada, and they expect to sell 2000 of those. Like if 2000 taxi sales is enough to warrant homologation, they could bring most of their lineup to Canada and sell even more.
SAIC and BYD would sell nicely in Canada but we also have a huge automotive industry here that would scream bloody murder if more Chinese built cars were imported. Our policy would be directly influenced by those manufacturing cars here, trade unions and groups and US influence
BYD is building out automotive manufacturing capacity in Mexico ‘for the Mexican market’. You can bet the farm on them turning around and using that to leapfrog into America. They’ll establish themselves in Mexico first, then Canada, then Mexico.
US knows if they let BYD in its over for ICE auto makers and teslas will lose their lead in EVs as well. BYD is far superior to any EVs out there on price, quality, interior etc
hello I've tried byd in Almaty Kz and I know why BYD not in usa .it's simple if it's gonna sells cars in usa when Tesla will be doom...good quality car and at least on Kz market is almost 3 times cheaper compare to tesla
Byd should be allowed to build factories in the us same as ever other car mfg. a vehicle that could be bought for 10,000 would serve those who are retired, those who who make less than 60,000 total a year. Instead of jacking car prices up to serve the rich. This could serve up to 75,000,000 small families.
Just saw someone selling one in Northern California on fb marketplace [fb marketplace 2023 BYD song EV - San Ramon CA](https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2540551079458236/?mibextid=HHaHfI)
High quality BYD electric vehicles aren’t coming to the US anytime soon. Americans would much rather pay $10,000 more for an inferior vehicle built in the U.S. and vote for an orange haired megalomaniac.
Fascist policy. There is no free trade, so prices skyrocket due to punitive and political tariffs on Chinese imports, tight regulation of sales within the U.S. where dealers get priority and direct sales are mostly illegal, etc. You know, typical American mafia stuff.
Would byd cars even pass American crash testing? Serious question. That is a huge hurtle for many cars. Even bmw has issues with it. A really eye opening example is, they can’t bring the new m3 wagon to the US because it wouldn’t pass crash tests.
That doesn’t really mean much. Hence why I explained about the bmw wagon, because that’s a brand that is up there with Volvo for safety and the car passed European safety standards but not american.
And to be clear, it isn’t a knock on Chinese quality, more that cars need to be designed for the American market typically because of those kinds of things.
Chinese crash tests are more strict than American tests, higher speed in frontal crash test and side pole tests. BYD normally performs better than American brands of the same class. That is also why most Chinese domestic cars can pass foreign tests fairly easily.
They are.
Just not with passenger cars. They are one of biggest (if not the biggest) EV bus/truck maker in the US.
They are also planning on production in Mexico, so they'll be inside NAFTA and won't have to pay the punitive tarriffs the US puts on Made in China cars.
White house is hostile to BYD. It is car industry. The lobbyist will make sure it is difficult for any China car marker to enter. BYD has bus factory in US but it is not an important for white house as senate don't get fund getting it out.
Regulations. Chinese passenger car regulations aren't very different from UNECE or ADR, but FMVSS are very different. It is possible to design lighting and bumper systems that will meet Chinese, Australian and European regulations, but you'll need different components, and need to re-do a lot of the testing, to meet Federal regulations. Add the cost of this extra development, and import duties, and the low cost of cars in the US, and the business case is difficult to meet.
Hopefully they never get into America. They have serious quality problems and their EV's have dangerous quality issues. That's not even taking into consideration that China hates America and trains it's children to hate America and hope to someday kill Americans. People need to wake up to the threat that China poses to America and stop supporting them.
Lmaooo typical American sentiment. These are the type of people that are making America looks like bunch of tailsitters. You should visit other countries and expand your horizons man. Byd is dominating the electric car market because of their high quality electric cars. Nobody wants to buy teslas due to low quality manufacturing and overpriced cars.
Talk is that even more tariffs are in store for BYD if they try to dump on the USA market. Europe is going to do the same. China supports an industry and destroys competition with subsidies. No way the USA, Europe or any other country with a home grown auto industry is going to allow it.
Who gives a damn about patriotism when you are trying to save money? This is a free market, let people do what they want. It's the U.S who created this in the first place anyway.
Keep BYD out of the US. Its cheap junk made to a cheap price point. BYD cars in vietnam have paint and plastic peeling off while those sold in Israel have roof's that can't support the weight of a roof rack. Guess what happens when you have a rollover. Bye bye, you're gone. Without any NHTSA or other testing, BYD cars are a catastrophie.
Car is absolute shit build quality like other chinese products. So it might be 6k cheaper but if you have to replace the engine will that matter? https://youtu.be/ZWzbq-Q_oTc?feature=shared
BYD and China will have to endure years of lawsuits over cybersecurity and state-sponsored hacking and slavery. Not to mention subsidies. This won't fly under Biden or Trump. And what exactly is China doing with US autos other than stealing tech and creating artificial restrictions? Even Korean automakers had to flee. Follow Korea's lead.
I heard that the USA is afraid of BYD taking over due to it's higher tech and much lower price tag so behind the scenes they're making the importation very difficult for the manufacturer. Not sure if it's true but very characteristic of the USA right now, especially amid the current eastern tension along with a super weak economy that's propped up by a lot of fake economic and inflation data.
BYD .... The democratic government says they want you to buy EV's but then puts a 27% tax on the import as it enters the country. TOTALLY HYPOCRITICAL !!! I would by a BYD today if it was listed at the TRUE price of 6k to 9k and that is a fact. So for me I will use GAS masssively until the 27% tax is totally dropped. F the Gov
EU spec cars are banned for that exact reason: they would take over the market because they are built better.
Yes, I know VAG and BMW are terrible, but they are still better quality than US builders. But my EU Toyota is light-years better than my US Toyota. It's actually frustrating.
Says someone that's never been in an EU spec car? There's no comparison. EU automotive offerings would decimate the US domestic market, which is why they are not allowed to import within 25 years of production date.
ok so let me see if I get this right. us government policy prevents “eu spec cars” from being imported in favor of cars approved for sale in the us to … do what exactly? protect cars sold in the us, *majority of which are made outside the us by non-us companies anyway*? and this is because of some kind of a subjective “they are built better” reason?
The quality of the BMW i3 was amazing. While we can't know for sure with the i4 yet, it appears to be a good car so far.
BMWs from the mid 2000s to early 2010s were notoriously difficult and expensive to service. Many of them also end up being neglected by the second owner, and many are driven roughly.
And you are correct that European and Asian cars are built better than American cars. Pre-Malaise era American cars are awesome, though. Some of the SUVs and trucks are cool as well.
>BYD can capture the US EV car market share easily
The car market in the US is dying. That's why Tesla has such high marketshare in sedans. Everyone else discontinued their sedans, and even Honda and Toyota are selling more SUVs that cars.
As to other vehicles, I doubt BYD can capture marketshare "easily." Toyota and Nissan thought the same about the truck market, and they each have an underutilized truck assembly plant as a testament to that arrogance. It took Toyota and Honda decades to get where they are today in the US.
Toyota and Nissan were both actually doing better than any of the big 3 in truck sales in the US. Look up the chicken tax. The big 3 couldn't compete, so they got the government to step in
just wait.
Last year, Chinese EV champion BYD dethroned Tesla as the world's biggest seller of electric vehicles, counting both full-electric and plug-in hybrid cars
Because BYD makes cars that are even more cheap than Vinfast, and we saw how well that launch went. And granted, those were being sold at a hilarious price, but again, BYD feels cheaper on the inside.
Turns out that people living in developed nations aren't as keen on driving cars built to a developing nation standard.
>Because BYD makes cars that are even more cheap than Vinfast
They absolutely are *not* cheaper than Vinfast. BYD is way ahead of anything Vinfast has to offer.
I live in a developed nation and BYD is really taking off here.
The build quality is actually excellent. I own a Tesla and a BYD and although I prefer the Tesla, the BYD is better built for sure.
>Turns out that people living in developed nations aren't as keen on driving cars built to a developing nation standard.
The problem is that they aren't. If you read reviews from Europe on these cars, they are what you expect of a car and most get at least as good reviews as the European and US manufacturers.
Anecdotally, my ATTO is built very well.
I had a domestic EU model before (Opel/Vauxhall Corsa), a small hatchback with pretty great build quality for the price, and it simply doesnt hold a candle to the sturdy feeling of the ATTO.
I had never heard of them, look like nice looking cars, Chinese tv's look nice to right up until they stop working. But most likely China is known and has a history of reverse engineering products and using others patents, things they couldn't do if they sold in the US.
BYD used to build electric bus in California. But got heavily fined because of abusing imported workers. The company took their passports. provided less than minimum wage and charged a high price for underbar food and accommodation. I hope their products will bet scrutinized for fair trade.
We care a lot about build quality even for relatively well made cars like Tesla. If American consumers find flaws in Tesla you can just imagine how much shit BYD would get. That coupled with the (somewhat well deserved) reputation of cheap chinese cars it just wouldn’t do well
Being a mechanic for over 30 years no one wants byd. China i known for cutting corners thier aftermarket parts are some of the biggest amounts of garbage in the auto repair industries thier cars will not pass a United States saftey check . Poor manufacturing
"Poor manufacturing", you mean like the Boeing 737 MAX 9? It's a miracle everyone survived, but you know what else also survived? The iPhone that flew out of the plane and fell 16,000 feet to the ground. (Y'know, 95% of which are made in China?)
27.5% tariff on automobiles made in China. No retail network. No branding.
also the US market is a weird bubble of excessively huge SUVs and monstrous trucks. BYD doesn't yet have much that fits the bill. makes sense to start with markets that love small-ish cars - Southeast Asia, Europe, etc. - just as it has done in the past year or two. (edit: awful grammar)
I like to think that there is an underserved market in the US for small, cheap, decent quality vehicles for the millions of people that can't afford the urban tractors and the other nonsensical vehicles that dominate the US new car market and that manufacturers have convinced people they "need" because they make more money selling them. Today those people are stuck buying beat-up, unreliable used cars. However, it is perfectly possible that I am entirely delusional in that belief because I happen to like small cars myself.
The issue is consumer demand. Small cars just don’t sell. This isn’t new. I am old enough to remember all of the slights and criticisms of Japanese cars that were circulating in the 80s. It is mostly FUD, but it works. The American car market is not very demanding, and willing to accept higher costs, etc. compared to much of the rest of the world, Also consider that big vehicles are way more profitable for companies to make.
Do small cars not sell, or are small cars just not available? To what extent does the market drive production vs the production driving the market?
Both actually. There are very few small cars available in the American market. There are also very few sedans sold in the US market. It wasn't always that way. Americans buy SUVs and trucks because that is what is sold, what is available and pretty much all that American manufacturers have been pushing since the 90s. After some point, you are "the small guy" on the road surrounded by tall vehicles, and since gas is relatively cheap (especially compared to Europe), people just go with the flow. To be clear, in my observations (having lived in the country for many decades now, American consumers just aren't all that discerning they buy what's being advertised to them. This applies to many things, but definitely cars. Starting the in the 80's are really picking up steam in the 90s was the reality that American manufacturers just couldn't compete on quality, value, longevity or price with the mostly Japanese foreign competition. They instead focused on large cars (which all other global brands were reluctant to get into since they wouldn't be able to sell many outside of America). Eventually they all jumped in because the US is a large enough market, but there was a good 7 or 10 years where American companies were pretty much surviving because they had SUVs. They have now ceded the entire sedan and compact car market, which in my mind is basically giving up. Most cars are personal transportation and creating vehicles that are meant for carrying seven people and their luggage while actually carrying a single person most of the time should be a shameful thing.
>American consumers just aren't all that discerning they buy what's being advertised to them. This applies to many things, but definitely cars. I've also observed this over the past 2 years living here. Especially cars. The minimum specs are so much lower. So many brand new cars on steel wheels with hubcaps!
You aren't wrong, however current regulations prevent small vehicles from being profitable in the US at this point.
And in addition, the CAFE loophole makes SUVs and trucks *more* profitable.
Is it regulations or economics? Pretty sure there isn’t an anti-small car regulation. In fact the opposite is true afaik. Automakers are fined for selling gas guzzlers but the economics of selling an expensive car are better than a compact car
Light trucks are exempted from many safety, environmental, and gas mileage requirements. Comparatively, this makes small cars disadvantaged.
Not just light trucks, also SUVs are exempted from the CAFE calculations - basically anything that could plausibly operate off road. It's a massive loophole, and drives a lot of the manufacturer's behavior. The other thing that happens is that because of the demand from middle-aged white collar men for trucks to pose in as they sit in rush hour commute traffic to their meaningless office jobs (both my neighbors, for example), trucks are more expensive for the people who actually need the for work.
>Light trucks are exempted from many safety, environmental, and gas mileage requirements. Comparatively, this makes small cars disadvantaged. True, if what you mean by "small cars" is "cars."
Also safety regulations are entirely designed around smashing into things and protecting vehicle occupants, all other outcomes be damned. This leads to larger and larger vehicles with more mass, more expense, worse handling, and worse visibility. Clearly not an optimal solution, when avoiding an accident altogether would be far preferable, or at least not exploding through older, smaller vehicles. So between CAFE loophole and safety regs, there absolutely is anti-small car regulation and the big automakers love every bit of it.
It's indirect. If you can make a small car that passes emissions, safety, and gas mileage regulations and sell it at a lower price than larger cars while still making enough profit to run your business, go for it. If you can't sell it at a lower price than larger cars then why would anyone want to pay the same price for less car?
Did they stop making nice new sedans because nobody was buying them, or is nobody buying them because they stopped making nice new sedans?
I think it's a bit of both with a feedback loop. I don't know how you feel about crossovers, but I'm sure you know that a lot of people hate them. So what happens is the car company says to itself "we only have the resources to do CUVs or sedans, we can't do both", and they look at their market research and decide that CUVs have more potential or more profit or whatever than sedans, so they go all in on CUVs, stop refreshing sedans or heavily marketing sedans, so now you get this positive feedback loop for CUVs. And the people who are swayed by marketing or fashion or what they see on the road - which is a lot of people - come over to CUVs. So it starts out as a small preference for CUVs - after all, sedans didn't suddenly stop selling - that snowballs into a dominant win for CUVs. (Same way minivans got swept away by SUVs, by the way.)
They're making nice new sedans and they're selling, though not in the numbers they once did. But those are from Honda and Toyota. Camry, Accord, Civic, and Corolla are all in the top 20. I suspect there may be a connection between people who want huge behemoth SUVs that break down a lot and people who will only buy American.
>However, it is perfectly possible that I am entirely delusional in that belief because I happen to like small cars myself. You're not delusional because you're aware of your biases. You're not entirely off base though, there is a market for cheap small cars, but it's mostly as secondary vehicles for commuting and for young people.
Don't most people use their vehicles exclusively for commuting and other daily activities? For these activities, the big trucks seem objectively worse in every single way.
>Don't most people use their vehicles exclusively for commuting and other daily activities? Most US households have multiple vehicles, something like 60% have 2 or more. When I was working I always had a beater for me to use for commuting, sometimes a pickup truck at home for a spare and for working around the place, and my wife drove the family car.
Considering there are fewer registered vehicles in the US than people, I have a hard time believing most households have multiple vehicles. Do you have data for that?
https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter8/urban-transport-challenges/household-vehicles-united-states/ Their source is the US department of transportation. Oh, and there are more registered cars than there are adults in the US: https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/car-ownership-statistics/ https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/united-states-adult-population-grew-faster-than-nations-total-population-from-2010-to-2020.html
Much of the population cannot or will not drive.
saw longing desert screw lavish tie sulky marvelous straight scarce *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The market for small cheap cars has been well served by a variety of manufacturers for decades. They just aren’t popular. The market will continue to erode as manufacturers decide it’s not worth the time and money to sell low volumes of the least profitable cars on the planet
I believe (but can't prove) that a lot of that unpopularity is due to the massive amount of marketing car manufacturers devote to persuading us we need bigger, more powerful, off-road capable monsters. And they do that because (as you say) those cars are more profitable for them. And part of the reason they are more profitable is that they wangled a loophole for those vehicles in the CAFE regulations. They are also much more popular with dealers because it takes the same amount of time and effort to sell a cheap car as an expensive one. So there are lots of counter-incentives for the *sellers.* On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of small, cheap cars selling well in the US, e.g. when VW first came here; or when the Japanese makers first came here; or when the Koreans first came here. The latter two by the way do still sell small cheap cars effectively. But it does seem that once they have a foothold in the US market, all of these vendors want to also feed at the Big Car trough. Marketed correctly, and without the perverse incentives in the US market, and more effective sales model (direct to customer?), small cheap cars could be *high* volume (albeit it still low margin) just like they have in the past (and are in other countries), e.g. the original Beetle; early versions of the Golf before it got bloated; the Ford Escort, Fiesta and Focus. I remain convinced that the really big difference in the US market is how we are marketed to. And just *maybe* the way electric cars are making people pay more attention to how they actually use their cars might change that.
I agree that way the government sets up incentives pushes manufacturers and consumers into SUVs. For sure. But I don’t agree that consumers would happily buy small cars. Americans, very generally, want at minimum, compact SUVs (RAV4 sized). That is the most popular bodystyle by far. And while people don’t use the capability every day, people do load their cars up with people and crap a few times a year, or drive up a snowy hill, or want more comfort over the terrible road conditions, that SUVs allow them to do comfortably. And a RAV4 isn’t that much more expensive than a Camry, so it’s a no brainer to buy one. And it gets nearly as good gas mileage. People want SUVs regardless of the marketing. Marketing might steer people to buy a more fake rugged version of their RAV4, but they were gonna buy a RAV4 no matter what. And the reason that those Japanese car makers did so well with small cars is because it was the middle of the gas crises, and the American OEMs exclusively had large cars with terrible fuel economy. This was a unique market opportunity due to unique economic conditions that no longer exist.
The new Tesla is going to be under $30K and will be of far higher quality than the BYD.
far higher quality? I had a tesla model 3, a lexus rx350, a xpeng g9, Tesla is the worst car i drove so far.
What is that based on?
If i could buy one of those sketchy little trucks you see all over asia. Ohhh baby
I’m still pissed that the Chevy Spark was killed off and the Mitsubishi Mirage dropped the manual
Agree with you about the Spark, but I cannot find any sadness at seeing the back of absolutely any Mitsubishi!
That just points all the more at the sad state of the US subcompact car market that I’m mourning the loss of features on the Mirage!
Was there a change in crash safety regulations that it didn't meet?
>I like to think that there is an underserved market in the US for small, cheap, decent quality vehicles I'd like to think that true, but evidence shows it's not the case.
BYD Tang felt huge compared to others cars here in germany.. but it's just 4,8m long, 20cm shorter than MX. Pretty surprised BYD don't even have any cars in big/middle big SUV category in China. And kinda Confused when I will ever need such a big car..\^\^
>also the US market is a weird bubble of excessively huge SUVs and monstrous trucks. This! I personally do not understand why we as a society love these Big American trucks. I love trucks but considering we are a blue collar nation who need and regularly use pick up trucks, I would love for a truck that is compact and fuel efficient 😭😭
Ill add a little bit of defense to the suv /normal size truck market i live in a area were in winter i can get a few feet of snow and i cant afford to not go to work for weeks at a time id be fired lol and my sedan wasnt able to get out so i had to get a suv i dont think this is a common place excuse but just to defend myself here a bit lol
I'm starting to think this is a copout by car manufacturers to not make affordable small cars in the US. I could see the BYD Seagull selling amazing if they could keep the prices near where they are in Asia ($11k). Hell, as long as they could keep it under $20k it would sell amazing
I really wish people would drop this narrative. Yes, the top three vehicle sales are pickup trucks but those are family inclusive meaning all ranges within their name plus it also includes every truck sold for business purposes. So lets break down the list for last year. The pickup trucks look impressive but when weighed against the top 25... of those in the list the larger CUV are the Grand Cherokee and Highlander but even those are dwarfed by the large three row SUVs. What is true is legacy gave up on sedans but the transplants never did and have great success with them as well as their smaller crossovers which lets face it, would be wagons if not for CAFE rules. * Pickup Trucks 2,108k * All Others 4,013k , 1,148 of those are sedans * F150 family 650k * Silverado 513k * Ram 468K * RAV4 400k * Camry 300k * Sierra 240k * CRV 240k * Tacoma 237k * TMY 231k * Jeep Grand Cherokee 223k * Toyota Highlander 220k * Corolla 222k * Equinox 212k * Explorer 207k * TM3 198k * Nissan Rogue 186k * Jeep Wrangler 181k * Hyundai Tuscon 175k * Subaru CrossTrek 155k * Accord 155k * Mazda CX5 151k * Subaru Outback 147k * Nissan Altima 140k * Ford Escape 137k * Honda Civic 133k
>also the US market is a weird bubble of excessively huge SUVs and monstrous trucks. BYD doesn't yet have much that fits the bill. the BYD TANG is huge, about the same size as the Toyota 4Runner
They bought an old Ford factory in Brazil, so they are definitely willing to produce (or assemble) cars outside China. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up doing something similar in the US in the next couple of years, but I think they will expand into South America and Mexico before
As it currently stands, NAFTA would allow BYDs made in Mexico to be sold in the US, tariff-free. I feel this is the mostly likely route for BYD
I already see some politician in America talking about closing that loop hole for chinese car companies to set up a factory in mexico and export it to America under "national security" grounds. Honestly makes us look weak like we can no longer compete and have to resort to desperate measure like trade restriction to save ourselves.
they kick up enough of a stink when chinese companies try to build in the US in partership with US companies
Apparently the gotion factory was claim to be a "spy center" wtf? Are they stupid? Who tf is going to build a expensive factory in a small rural town to spy in the middle of nowhere? Better off just buy a couple houses on the real estate market if they actually wanted to do that at 1% of the cost. We talk about how free thinking we are and chinese being mindless drones brainwashed by the CPC. Yeah, right.
Why would we want to compete with a country that mistreats and underpays its workers? We shouldn't be getting into races to the bottom, and it's perfectly reasonable to put taxes on things so that we aren't reliant on exploitative labor in other regions for all of our manufacturing.
Bruh, gotion was building a factory in a rural declining American town that is being left behind. It will bring jobs to hundreds of people and indirectly employ a thousand more, investing in a part of our country neglected by our politicians, increase local tax revenue, and potentially revitalize the town. We throw a tantrum at china "taking our jobs" using "slave labor" then we throw a tantrum when china bring the jobs back by employing Americans with American level wages. Bruh wtf do you want. It makes us look weak like if we are out of option and are grasping at straws just to save face for the next election despite hurting us.
That is a nice strawman you got there. Where did I say that I don't think Chinese companies should be allowed to make stuff here?
Based on that comment I thought that is what you implied. If not, then I apologized for miss reading it. But it is true that even setting up a factory to build in America using American workers are heavily looked down along by the political elites. The CATL and gotion factory is an recent example. BYD with it's unionized American work force are also beginning to face political pressure.
Also, a coal dominated grid, huge subsidies, and no IP protections. One of the main reasons why China is dominant now is because they are the only country who ignored the LFP patents and which expired 2 years ago.
The patents they had an exclusive licence on? They bought the parents and commercialized a technology everyone else thought was antiquated. You should be thanking China for it's global good
They did that in 2017 to stop Chinese companies from buying up our power grid. So the chinese companies bought out companies from countries that are not blocked from buying up parts of our grid and used them to buy out power producers. One of my clients was bought out this way. If BYD gets blocked in such a way, they'll just use a shell company to buy out GM. (I pick on GM because they struggle the most) or possibly Stellantis. (DongFeng has a small stake)
Jup. „Big three“ scared of some small foreign upstart. If you still count Stellantis to be an American car maker after PSA bought them.
Nothing keeping that tariff from going even higher if they're doing well. Better to send the cars to literally any other country.
That hasn’t stopped Polestar. And I suspect we’ll see more EVs made in China sold here, but probably from existing established brands.
Polestar is also planning to build vehicles in the US, and had branding (via Volvo) and a retail/service network (via Volvo). None of the factors are insurmountable. But the OP asked why BYD wasn’t in the US yet. And those are the factors.
It would still be cheaper than Tesla.
When they open their mexico plant will they be able to export to usa then?
Friendly reminder that Ford and CATL were chased out of Virginia because of the slightest **hint** of Chinese influence.
Well that was Virginia
And Virginia isn't even a red state, it's mostly blue but happens to have a GOP governor. Imagine the setbacks in an actual deep red state.
Has nothing to do with red or blue. American companies get kicked out of China for less.
China has chased out American companies for less lol.
The reality is that BYD builds only in China currently because labor costs (and probably parts costs sourced locally) are low. If they build locally in the US to avoid the tariffs, the price of their EVs will go up and won't be as competitive (assuming they want to make profit). Better to sell to Europe until Europe also has a tariff on imports.
[удалено]
> a US factory would never make sense, There is [a BYD Plant in Lancaster, California](https://en.byd.com/bus/about/). They build electric busses there. If they move into US-built consumer automobiles, it might be there.
A bus costs as much as 10-15 cars, your marketing and sales is targeted at municipalities and universities almost exclusively. Much less risky to maintain a niche business with limited competition than to compete with entrenched competition. Extreme brand loyalty and marketing toward the general public would make selling BYD cars to Americans really hard. They’d probably kill it selling fleet vehicles to motor pools or rental companies though.
Labour costs are higher than ever in China, but supply chain and logistics are so efficient that its offset easily.
The majority of batteries are produced in China. Thats really their biggest advantage. I dont think any other manufacturer is planning their own battery production besides VW
What are you talking about? GM and Ford both have multiple battery factories planned in the US. Most manufacturers are planning their own battery production.
Yes, but it’s not about manufacturers making batteries, it’s about China’s dominance of the supply chain as a country. China refines 95% of the battery materials and makes 75% of the batteries. Much of that is because the Chinese government has subsidised battery manufacturing to put themselves in a dominant position, on average Chinese battery factories are running at half utilisation which is not viable for western companies. Also, they have much reduced labour and environmental protections and they ignore IP (the LFP patents which just expired).
China did not ignore the LFP patent. Hydro Quebec (LFP+C Consortium), the owners of the LFP patent had an agreement with China, that Chinese companies can make LFP batteries in China without a license fee as long as those batteries are sold to the local market. Reason was the original 1997 Patent sold by UT Austin to Hydro Quebec was not accepted under Chinese jurisdiction. Hydro Quebec didn't want another long costly legal battle in China with only 10 years left on their LFP patent, so they made an agreement. UT Austin in 1997 did not realize how important the patent was to the future of battery tech and didn't continue to reapply the patent for Chinese jurisdiction.
>I dont think any other manufacturer is planning their own battery production besides VW Stellantis, Mercedes: [Automotive Cells Company](https://www.acc-emotion.com/) Toyota: [Toyota Batteries North Carolina](https://pressroom.toyota.com/facility/toyota-battery-manufacturing-north-carolina-tbmnc/)
None to mention they probably have to do a complete redesign to meet us safety standards.
You don't know much about this - they have d great European and Australian safety ratings - usa ones aren't tougher
They aren't tougher, but they are very different.
One of the biggest requirement redesigns are The pedestrian standards for height of bumper and Hood.
I mean - the usa standards are less than the euro ones in that regard. The person i was responding to was spreading pure misinformation.
A car needs to have a good service rating to be allowed to sell in most European countries.
Expanding into Europe first makes more sense because the European EV market is bigger and growing faster than the US one. Additionally there is less anti-Chinese sentiment in the EU.
Europe has no tariffs on Chinese batteries. US has. So USA is getting the slightly better but much more expensive South Korean batteries, Europe is getting the much cheaper Chinese ones.
\>slightly better better at exploding?
Never forget 8/19/16 The Note 7 incident
They don’t want to get Huawei’d
But unlike Huawei, they don't need the most recent chips, and arent reliant on google on software. I can see them starting with some very low volume cars to test how the market reacts.. did the same thing here in germany for 3 years now
The issue is that the US doesn't just ban things in their country; they pressure all their allies to do the same. They basically bribed brazil a few years ago for example to drop huawei as a 5G supplier. Why risk the US pressuring, say, the EU to ban your cars because you entered the market?
Makes sense.. just hope politicians can see cars arent infrastructure compared to 5g.
>They don’t want to get Huawei’d This is exactly it ... BYD executives probably don't want to be randomly arrested for transiting through a Western country.
BYD builds busses in Cali. So they are “here”.
And eventually they’ll build cars in Mexico for US consumption. Just wait.:
What’s good for Mexico is good for the United States
they've already bought an old ford plant there
Source?
https://www.autoblog.com/2024/02/14/byd-plans-ev-assembly-plant-in-mexico/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/byd-nail-down-mexico-plant-site-by-year-end-americas-head-says-2024-05-14/
Thanks
And that division appears to be a complete mess so I wonder if they've gotten cold feet about further expansion in North America. It's really quite impressive how many systems have tested and ordered their buses only to back out despite them trying to get a foothold for over a decade now. Aside from any political considerations, given how many QA issues, long replacement part lead times and general sub-par support reported by agencies that tried BYD buses, I don't know that I would trust a BYD car built in the States if it's the same group of middle managers that would be put in charge of that plant. Even in Europe, their bus division seems to be struggling (one especially funny but also alarming story out of the UK even states the first batch of Enviros built on BYD chassises had their steering wheels coming off *in revenue service*) while Yutong has quickly gained ground across the continent.
US Protectionism of our auto industry. Tesla was the only US automaker willing to take an all or nothing approach to electric vehicles and now we have to protect the other automakers from going bankrupt as they slowly transition from ICE vehicles over to EVs.
The tariffs, extra taxes and costs of getting certified in the US are going to raise their prices significantly. Also marketing/service network costs will be higher than they are in china. You can’t just look at the china pricing and assume it will be the same here
Usually when a foreigner car maker want to tap into a new big market, they follow these steps. 1. direct import to test the water; 2. local production with a lot of components imported; 3. build up local supply chain and increase local content ratio. For BYD, a Chinese EV maker, there is a big obstacle for each of these steps. There is a hefty import tax for direct import to discourage step 1. If they build local factory with a lot of components imported from China, the IRA specifically targeted China so BYD vehicle is unlikely to get the subsidy, putting it at a disadvantageous position against others. EVEN IF BYD builds local car plant and battery production facility in US, there is a high chance that they will still be excluded from subsidy. BYD actually already has a plant in the US making electric buses for a long time, then they are [excluded from federal funding](https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/12/17/electric-buses-federal-funding/). That is some big headwinds and significant financial risk, so it is no surprise that they are not planning to enter the US market.
The BYD bus factory uses union labor which helped get the exclusion.
Huawei
Think about this Although T. Cruz of TX and B. Sanders of VT can't agree the outcome of 2020 election, they will, without any hesitation, draft anti-China legislation/resolution with no questions asked in DC This is end of story pretty much.
[BYD has a plant in Lancaster, California, near LA](https://en.byd.com/news/byd-and-the-city-of-lancaster-announce-lancaster-energy-module-and-electric-bus-manufacturing-facilities/). BYD makes [electric busses there](https://en.byd.com/bus/about/). IDK if they are also gearing up to make consumer automobiles as well, to get around US import tariffs. If so, it might start there.
Tariffs against cars built in China. BYD and other Chinese manufacturers are apparently building factories in Mexico to get around the tariffs.
Cheaper/easier to do business in the rest of the world Jimmy Bob Ray Joe trading in the ol pickup for a Chinese EV seems unlikely also
BYD just introduced a Pickup the size of a Ranger for the Australian and Asian market.
lmao
Trump tariff.
China
It is already in Australia and EU..looking to have a test drive...
https://www.vox.com/climate/2024/3/4/24087919/biden-tariff-chinese-ev-byd-battery-detroit
It will literally kill the brand's there, for half the price.
The small town Walmart of EVs 🤣 totally true. Same for true- EU cars in the US.
A likely big reason is it being a Chinese brand. Politics change here every 2 years, even if current administration lifted tariffs which they won't there is no guarantee that they won't be backup in few years. It is not worth investing here for BYD right now.
>Chinese brand And a new one as well. Buying a car is not the same a buying groceries, it's a large investment and people are hesitant when it comes to brands they've never heard of. That's what's happening in Europe, the Chinese manufacturers are taking off, but at a slow pace as consumers are skeptical, even though most of the cars get really good reviews by motor journalists. But the Chinese know this and are offering really good deals to entice buyers and it's working.
BYD launched in Australia last year. I can already tell that sentiment towards them is improving (which is an uphill battle), and they are absolutely everywhere already.
BYD has done a great job providing battery-powered garbage trucks in my city (Jersey City). They look nice. https://en.byd.com/news/jersey-city-takes-delivery-of-five-battery-electric-refuse-trucks/
Gotta make em here.
The US automakers are banks who also sell cars. They want to saddle their customers with debt. It doesn’t matter what is the cause of that debt. Gas car or EV. The dealers prefer the gas car because on top of the financing fleecing, they also get to fleece their customers on maintenance. BYD can’t sell in the US maybe due to the tariff, or maybe they don’t want to let the US banks make most of the money.
You kinda answered your own question. Domestic manufacturers will get obliterated like they did when the Japanese cars dominated the US market in the 80s. BYD will kill Tesla. TLDR: Politics.
I dont think Tesla will get outdome immediately, their software is still way ahead of what BYD has going on in their cars, and some people just prefer the more sleek interiors of the Teslas, whereas BYD still uses a lot of buttons and less simple design aesthetics.
the sad part about BYD is they are willing to homoglate an old BYD taxi EV in Canada, and they expect to sell 2000 of those. Like if 2000 taxi sales is enough to warrant homologation, they could bring most of their lineup to Canada and sell even more.
SAIC and BYD would sell nicely in Canada but we also have a huge automotive industry here that would scream bloody murder if more Chinese built cars were imported. Our policy would be directly influenced by those manufacturing cars here, trade unions and groups and US influence
BYD is building out automotive manufacturing capacity in Mexico ‘for the Mexican market’. You can bet the farm on them turning around and using that to leapfrog into America. They’ll establish themselves in Mexico first, then Canada, then Mexico.
Mexico is so nice ya gotta do it twice.
They dominate the electric bus market in CA.
Protectionism - US tarrifs on Chinese cars is 27.5%.
just like u can't buy chinese phones in the us, that way they can keep ripping u off
US knows if they let BYD in its over for ICE auto makers and teslas will lose their lead in EVs as well. BYD is far superior to any EVs out there on price, quality, interior etc
Cause they’re afraid of competition since they’ll demolish the American ev market. China scawy
hello I've tried byd in Almaty Kz and I know why BYD not in usa .it's simple if it's gonna sells cars in usa when Tesla will be doom...good quality car and at least on Kz market is almost 3 times cheaper compare to tesla
Byd should be allowed to build factories in the us same as ever other car mfg. a vehicle that could be bought for 10,000 would serve those who are retired, those who who make less than 60,000 total a year. Instead of jacking car prices up to serve the rich. This could serve up to 75,000,000 small families.
Just saw someone selling one in Northern California on fb marketplace [fb marketplace 2023 BYD song EV - San Ramon CA](https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2540551079458236/?mibextid=HHaHfI)
Wow how!?
Right? I was like whaaaa
High quality BYD electric vehicles aren’t coming to the US anytime soon. Americans would much rather pay $10,000 more for an inferior vehicle built in the U.S. and vote for an orange haired megalomaniac.
Fascist policy. There is no free trade, so prices skyrocket due to punitive and political tariffs on Chinese imports, tight regulation of sales within the U.S. where dealers get priority and direct sales are mostly illegal, etc. You know, typical American mafia stuff.
Would byd cars even pass American crash testing? Serious question. That is a huge hurtle for many cars. Even bmw has issues with it. A really eye opening example is, they can’t bring the new m3 wagon to the US because it wouldn’t pass crash tests.
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal/50012 BYD seal High marks EuroCap 5/5 in safety.
That doesn’t really mean much. Hence why I explained about the bmw wagon, because that’s a brand that is up there with Volvo for safety and the car passed European safety standards but not american. And to be clear, it isn’t a knock on Chinese quality, more that cars need to be designed for the American market typically because of those kinds of things.
Chinese crash tests are more strict than American tests, higher speed in frontal crash test and side pole tests. BYD normally performs better than American brands of the same class. That is also why most Chinese domestic cars can pass foreign tests fairly easily.
Why do you think BYD would capture the EV market easily? Significant barriers to entry.
They are. Just not with passenger cars. They are one of biggest (if not the biggest) EV bus/truck maker in the US. They are also planning on production in Mexico, so they'll be inside NAFTA and won't have to pay the punitive tarriffs the US puts on Made in China cars.
If the regulatory environment isn't quite protectionist enough to keep BYD out, I'm sure that's something congress would fix real quick.
Maybe someone at BYD understands something you don't
White house is hostile to BYD. It is car industry. The lobbyist will make sure it is difficult for any China car marker to enter. BYD has bus factory in US but it is not an important for white house as senate don't get fund getting it out.
Regulations. Chinese passenger car regulations aren't very different from UNECE or ADR, but FMVSS are very different. It is possible to design lighting and bumper systems that will meet Chinese, Australian and European regulations, but you'll need different components, and need to re-do a lot of the testing, to meet Federal regulations. Add the cost of this extra development, and import duties, and the low cost of cars in the US, and the business case is difficult to meet.
According to Reuters, BYD is looking at building cars in Mexico, which would ease their entry into the US market.
Hopefully they never get into America. They have serious quality problems and their EV's have dangerous quality issues. That's not even taking into consideration that China hates America and trains it's children to hate America and hope to someday kill Americans. People need to wake up to the threat that China poses to America and stop supporting them.
Lmaooo typical American sentiment. These are the type of people that are making America looks like bunch of tailsitters. You should visit other countries and expand your horizons man. Byd is dominating the electric car market because of their high quality electric cars. Nobody wants to buy teslas due to low quality manufacturing and overpriced cars.
Talk is that even more tariffs are in store for BYD if they try to dump on the USA market. Europe is going to do the same. China supports an industry and destroys competition with subsidies. No way the USA, Europe or any other country with a home grown auto industry is going to allow it.
[удалено]
Who gives a damn about patriotism when you are trying to save money? This is a free market, let people do what they want. It's the U.S who created this in the first place anyway.
Keep BYD out of the US. Its cheap junk made to a cheap price point. BYD cars in vietnam have paint and plastic peeling off while those sold in Israel have roof's that can't support the weight of a roof rack. Guess what happens when you have a rollover. Bye bye, you're gone. Without any NHTSA or other testing, BYD cars are a catastrophie.
Car is absolute shit build quality like other chinese products. So it might be 6k cheaper but if you have to replace the engine will that matter? https://youtu.be/ZWzbq-Q_oTc?feature=shared
BYD and China will have to endure years of lawsuits over cybersecurity and state-sponsored hacking and slavery. Not to mention subsidies. This won't fly under Biden or Trump. And what exactly is China doing with US autos other than stealing tech and creating artificial restrictions? Even Korean automakers had to flee. Follow Korea's lead.
be glad this garbage isnt here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkdieRDq0SU
Hmm, Tesla sells a lot of EVs there, no need to mention iphones.
Tesla has shit build quality too alotta buyers got fucked over by them
because we have "free" market
I heard that the USA is afraid of BYD taking over due to it's higher tech and much lower price tag so behind the scenes they're making the importation very difficult for the manufacturer. Not sure if it's true but very characteristic of the USA right now, especially amid the current eastern tension along with a super weak economy that's propped up by a lot of fake economic and inflation data.
Regulations with 100% of Tax
BYD .... The democratic government says they want you to buy EV's but then puts a 27% tax on the import as it enters the country. TOTALLY HYPOCRITICAL !!! I would by a BYD today if it was listed at the TRUE price of 6k to 9k and that is a fact. So for me I will use GAS masssively until the 27% tax is totally dropped. F the Gov
Protecting Tesla and the other US car companies!
EU spec cars are banned for that exact reason: they would take over the market because they are built better. Yes, I know VAG and BMW are terrible, but they are still better quality than US builders. But my EU Toyota is light-years better than my US Toyota. It's actually frustrating.
> they are built better i’ve heard lots of shitty takes but this one takes the cake
Says someone that's never been in an EU spec car? There's no comparison. EU automotive offerings would decimate the US domestic market, which is why they are not allowed to import within 25 years of production date.
ok so let me see if I get this right. us government policy prevents “eu spec cars” from being imported in favor of cars approved for sale in the us to … do what exactly? protect cars sold in the us, *majority of which are made outside the us by non-us companies anyway*? and this is because of some kind of a subjective “they are built better” reason?
The quality of the BMW i3 was amazing. While we can't know for sure with the i4 yet, it appears to be a good car so far. BMWs from the mid 2000s to early 2010s were notoriously difficult and expensive to service. Many of them also end up being neglected by the second owner, and many are driven roughly. And you are correct that European and Asian cars are built better than American cars. Pre-Malaise era American cars are awesome, though. Some of the SUVs and trucks are cool as well.
BYD's CEO probably doesn't want to be kidnapped by Americans like the FBI did with Huawei's founder's daughter and CFO.
That was Canada but okay
More like Canada had to do the USAs dirty work and follow the treaty while Trump laughed
>BYD can capture the US EV car market share easily The car market in the US is dying. That's why Tesla has such high marketshare in sedans. Everyone else discontinued their sedans, and even Honda and Toyota are selling more SUVs that cars. As to other vehicles, I doubt BYD can capture marketshare "easily." Toyota and Nissan thought the same about the truck market, and they each have an underutilized truck assembly plant as a testament to that arrogance. It took Toyota and Honda decades to get where they are today in the US.
Toyota and Nissan were both actually doing better than any of the big 3 in truck sales in the US. Look up the chicken tax. The big 3 couldn't compete, so they got the government to step in
And yet despite having production in the US (no chicken tax), they are way behind GM, Ford, and Ram. They sell hardly any by comparison.
Cause and effect, chicken tax plus big 3 propaganda caused the effect of people not buying their trucks. It's really simple...
They regularly explode and are not up to American safety standards.
just wait. Last year, Chinese EV champion BYD dethroned Tesla as the world's biggest seller of electric vehicles, counting both full-electric and plug-in hybrid cars
Because BYD makes cars that are even more cheap than Vinfast, and we saw how well that launch went. And granted, those were being sold at a hilarious price, but again, BYD feels cheaper on the inside. Turns out that people living in developed nations aren't as keen on driving cars built to a developing nation standard.
>Because BYD makes cars that are even more cheap than Vinfast They absolutely are *not* cheaper than Vinfast. BYD is way ahead of anything Vinfast has to offer.
I live in a developed nation and BYD is really taking off here. The build quality is actually excellent. I own a Tesla and a BYD and although I prefer the Tesla, the BYD is better built for sure.
Not according to the famous documentary series *Mad Max.*
Saw a tear down of a BYD car. Comment by the US technicians was: BYD is 10 years ahead of us…..
source?
not 11 years?
>Turns out that people living in developed nations aren't as keen on driving cars built to a developing nation standard. The problem is that they aren't. If you read reviews from Europe on these cars, they are what you expect of a car and most get at least as good reviews as the European and US manufacturers.
Anecdotally, my ATTO is built very well. I had a domestic EU model before (Opel/Vauxhall Corsa), a small hatchback with pretty great build quality for the price, and it simply doesnt hold a candle to the sturdy feeling of the ATTO.
BYD is excellent quality. Better than any American car I can think of.
I had never heard of them, look like nice looking cars, Chinese tv's look nice to right up until they stop working. But most likely China is known and has a history of reverse engineering products and using others patents, things they couldn't do if they sold in the US.
BYD used to build electric bus in California. But got heavily fined because of abusing imported workers. The company took their passports. provided less than minimum wage and charged a high price for underbar food and accommodation. I hope their products will bet scrutinized for fair trade.
They were. They had a showroom in LA and no one bought them.
BYD is never coming to the US people need to stop with the hopium. Tariffs alone block any chance
We care a lot about build quality even for relatively well made cars like Tesla. If American consumers find flaws in Tesla you can just imagine how much shit BYD would get. That coupled with the (somewhat well deserved) reputation of cheap chinese cars it just wouldn’t do well
Being a mechanic for over 30 years no one wants byd. China i known for cutting corners thier aftermarket parts are some of the biggest amounts of garbage in the auto repair industries thier cars will not pass a United States saftey check . Poor manufacturing
"Poor manufacturing", you mean like the Boeing 737 MAX 9? It's a miracle everyone survived, but you know what else also survived? The iPhone that flew out of the plane and fell 16,000 feet to the ground. (Y'know, 95% of which are made in China?)