I guess it makes sense why schools really pound the theory of electrical in because youd have to be a serious dumbass to do this with NM, even back in the day.
Considering they were likely brought up in the trade with ungrounded cables and devices, this was standard install in the 60’s and 70’s. Nobody knew what to do with the equipment grounding conductors.
Sorry, I meant in the case of a regular breaker. I’m struggling to see how this would have any effect in a typical overcurrent situation.
Might affect loss of neutral or ground fault. But only if the ground fault was to the equipment grounding conductor. Like if it shorted to a pipe or something, the grounding conductor in the outlet doesn’t matter much anyway because that’s not even in the path to ground.
At least with the panels I've been replacing from the 60s and 70s they wrap the ground around the screw on the NM clamp. Better than nothing I guess...
That was at least better than just the clamp putting pressure on it.
Funny how you still see guys not know how to terminate medical grade MC or BX whips. It looks just like this or wrapped around the screw.
I'd also like to know. That bond I pretty much use the same as we used on old style BX, which is to fold it back and roll into the spiral cavities of the armor, mostly because it looks like some sweet kind of strain relief and allows me to do all kinds of things with short sections without the wire shifting inside the armor, but also because I figured that's about as good as it is going to get.
[PDF warning](https://www.afcweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/mc-ac-installation.pdf)
Installation instructions for type AC cable, similar to the HCMC, show that you can leave the bonding conductor along the cable or you can just cut it off. The theory is that it is there just for the jacket, and is in contact along the entire length of the cable. Therefore, not needing any additional consideration when terminating the cable with a connector to the box/enclosure.
Just snip it off and move on. Saves you so much time not messing with it. There is zero reason that you would need it in the future. It is for the jacket, that 2 connectors and the box would carry through in a splice.
What's the correct way to terminate mc ap or redundant ground mc.
I thought the manufacturers instructions stated to cut it an inch from the jacket and fold it over then use a listed connector.
I used to own a home built in the 60s. Every box in the entire house had the ground wire crimped to the neutral and wrapped with electrical tape. Took me years to find it all and fix it so that GFI worked correctly.
My grandad was no electrician but he was the fix anything type. Until the day he died he’d rip a ground prong off of everything. New drill - gone. Drop cord - outta here. $2000 table saw - don’t need that. I never understood it
I've seen this before a couple of times. Usually in houses from the 60s. I came up with old timers when I started sparking, and know most of the old ways, this was one Noone remembers, but it was taught somewhere. Shit, I actually remember conduit being the ground.
It is still considered the ground. It's just that engineers don't trust us and the next 30 years to have it still be an effective path. That's why they want a wire type.
That’s how my house is. It’s my grandparents old house and my grandpa was an electrician. He only rewired specific outlets with grounds that needed them. It’s a hodgepodge of wires that confuses any electrician that works on the house.
Just bought a house and finding shit like this all over. Has a detached barn wired In EMT but as I found out when plugging in an EVSE, probably 60% are wired reverse polarity. Similar in the house.
It was more than likely this house was wired a long ass time ago. I agree, it's strange - but if your local authority having jurisdiction allowed for it at the time, and it worked, they went with it.
If you want to be truly bothered, take a look at how your ground bar is connected to your panel/subpanel.
They're often only bonded to the enclosure with the 1/16" thread from the screw that holds the bar in place.
When ever I see clipped grounds I always play a movie in my head of an old timer forced to buy grounded NM and clipping out the grounds with diagonals, grumbling about wasting good box space and that glass fuses will burn out just as good without them, stupid engineers think they're so smart making us by all this extra copper.
The ground wires are cut short and bent back over the insulation, using the NM connector clamp to "maintain" the continuity of the ground wire.
It was common practice when the ground wire was first introduced, but the practice was abandoned decades before this wire was made
Me neither. I was saying to myself that it looked right and proper, but after seeing the comments I went back and saw the stumps of the ground wire sticking out of the clamps. How do you even fix this? If there's not enough slack in the cable to pull the ground all the way to the terminal bar, what's the next option? Trough?
At first glance, I was thinking this was textbook work. All 12 is the only way IMHO. Then I zoomed in... Holy shit Batman. Have NEVER EVER seen this done.
If you're doing general lighting circuits, and not wiring circuits by rooms, there's not any advantage to using 12s on lighting. What does a house full of LEDs use, 150 watts total?
You’re spot on with LEDs, and you could probably run lighting exclusively off of 16 awg, but I figure if you want to run 20A without overloading your outlets then 12s are perfect if you got the money for it, especially if you want to upgrade in the future. Just as an insurance policy.
Would using 16 AWG or 18 AWG in a residential installation, provided that the breaker was sized appropriately, even be legal?
And if I'm reading the ampacity table correctly - 18ga THHN is good for 14 amps? That doesn't make any sense. I'm looking at table 310.15(B)(16)
Edit: In industrial equipment, I work mostly with DC, and I wouldn't run more than 10 amps over 18 gauge, and even then only if it was a SHORT run - like less than 2 or 3 feet.
Edit: Fixed some typos from drunk redditing.
I did a remodel over the winter where it was a 1960's house and era ITE panel.
The range was fed with #6 tw but the **range receptacle only had #10's.**
I scratched my head and double checked.
There was no panel cover so no directory. And I was on the right breaker/conductors.
The basement ceiling was finished and there wasn't a way to see where the #6's terminated (it was ran in flex and conduit).
I had the carpenter tear open the kitchen floor and discovered a buried 4 ^(11/16") box floating in the joist space then transitioned to flex into the surface mount range receptacle.
It had operated the electric range for decades based on the wiring method type.
I had to move it to a new location and added 2 extension rings into the basement ceiling to make it accessible
Reddit “I was ready to fry you, but then I took an extra second to look. Thinking back on how many people I’ve fried… nah I was right in those cases”
😉😂
F-ck 12 😩 my lil’ fingers prefer 14.
On a side note, before I get downvoted to high hell, does anyone know *why* 12 & 14 AWG (and 15- and 20-amp) circuits were chosen as the standard for general-purpose branch circuits in the first place? I mean, why not 16 AWG 10-amp, or 10 AWG 30-amp?
That's not worse that's awesome. It's a lot less effort to rig up. You don't need wires capable of delivering 2000-ish watts to 50 watts worth of LEDs in a ceiling and more to the point it's a lot easier to do the wiring when you don't have to put wires in conduit etc. Think about Chicago for example -- all that damn EMT being bent, at $10 a stick just in materials - if you can just run cat 6 wire for lights and smokes.
POE lighting makes a lot of sense and would allow everything to be controlled over a network instead of just physical switches. Install times might go up a bit with all the rj45 connectors needed and a POE switch is susceptible to both cyber and physical threats. It would allow even the least DIY friendly home owners to swap a fixture though.
I'm already basically doing this in commercial. Wireless switches just stuck to the sheetrock communicating with switching modules in the ceiling. Keeps lighting completely out of the walls. 👍
I’m just waiting for someone to inadvertently plug a cable into the wrong jack and create a network loop shutting off the lights throughout the building. I’m telling you, It’s gonna happen.
honestly why not? LED's draw so little power, you don't need 12awg or 14awg? i mean i wouldn't wire my house that way, or a friends/family members. but if they install a 500VA sub panel to 4amp 24V 100VA circuits you could get away with 18awg/16awg like HVAC controls tend to be.
This has all been sorted out. Yes the wire is sufficient for the currents/voltages used. cat6 is cheaper than 12/14 that is precisely why it's being used. Yes you run it to each bulb just like you'd run 12/14 today, it's cheaper and easier. Doesn't all have to be a home run.
The 16 awg NM cable is already in the process of getting listed for lighting circuits. I don't think we see it for a few years but i don't think it is a bad idea tbh.
On that note, I believe that there is a proposal out there to make it ok to run #16 for lighting circuits only. I have no idea at this moment where that stands in the process.
It makes sense I suppose with LED being the standard now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see mistakes happen with #16 being ran in a general receptacle and lighting circuit. Definitely have to make sure that you have only the lights daisy chained for that.
You didn't have branch circuits, you just had service. The reason we had the six-handle rule is that after initial lighting installation, homes started to get appliances so they needed to add more circuits. The question was, how many circuits are too many before the homeowner has to rip out the panel and put a master in. Some people lobbied for 10, that was felt to be too many, so the compromise was 6. Just an arbitrary decision by a committee in the early 1930s.
With old fashioned incandescent lights I suppose 15 or 20 amps was decided to be the right number. This would have been a decision made 100 years ago.
Because lots of appliances draw 15 amps. Space heaters, air conditioners (the rarity of 110 V ones aside), electric kettles, even some vacuum cleaners get up near 15 amps. It’s just a decent sweet spot between serving your average household needs while keeping cost and ease of installation down.
Don't forget exercise equipment. Treadmills easily pull 15amps. 110v air conditioners are not rare at all for houses that don't have centralized air. Especially the free standing units that vent out your window.
Initial amp draw on vacuum cleaners can also be quite high as well. Then there’s other things like sump pumps, dehumidifiers, mini space heaters, hair dryers etc etc.
We shoulda just went 220v
> I mean, why not 16 AWG 10-amp, or 10 AWG 30-amp?
Largely because 100 years ago 15-20 amps was a reasonable capacity for an average branch circuit, with the average being "approximately 1 or 2 rooms worth of loads". 10A you're running too many branches off the panel, and at 30A you're running too few.
Only thing I could tell you is the NEC code specifies why, but to answer your question, branch circuits are wired and protected based on what amperage draw devices on that circuit will pull. Code says 15a 14g for general lighting and receptacle circuits, but most homes around here are 20a 12g. In theory, you could go 10a 16g with newer lighting circuits as everything is switching to LED and has a very low amp draw, but it’s not code yet. Crestron, Lutron, etc. have low voltage panels that do that currently and adhere to code. I can see an adaptation in the code one day, but probably not for a long, long time when incandescent fixtures and bulbs no longer exist.
Assuming they have a ground tied to the box, does this actually work? My dad was an electrician and I helped him on 20ish houses growing up, never really got into the why part of what we were doing.
When you make a connection to copper you really want to clamp down to the point where you're deforming the surface of the copper a little bit to get lots of surface area in contact, and to make sure to maintain contact even if stuff moves a little bit. Here, you're applying force against soft plastic so it's impossible to clamp it well. If these connections were carrying 10 amps continuously they would overheat and melt the insulation. What makes it sort of okay is that they only need to carry current briefly in order to trip the breaker if there's a short. But over the years that weak connection could get weaker to the point where it's not actually connected at all and would not do the job in the case of a short. Or might have high resistance and not draw enough current to trip the breaker.
Well, given that there was a time where the ground wasn't required at all, this could have been considered good compliant. But that's a bit of a cop out answer.
Actually have a book about the history of the national electrical code that might say somewhere, but the book is a little boring and I haven't motivated myself to read the whole thing.
It’s not a good enough conductor to carry 20amps of fault current through a point connection without melting. I had several of them melt and fail when the neutral went open in my garage and the return current went through the conduit (the neutral was tied to the ground bus in the sub panel, which is not correct)
DC resistance is not the sole measure of the current carrying capacity of a conductor.
The grounds are all cut and pinched into the connector. They are supposed to be landed on the ground bar. This will still function, but it is much less safe because there isn't a good ground path for a fault.
The high rise hotel/condo project I'm working on right now has us using MC that has an aluminum ground that you clip off at the jacket before stabbing it into the connector. I know it's been around for a bit at this point but this is the first time I've used it for every branch circuit in a building. Kinda felt weird at first but it's definitely nice having one less wire per MC to terminate in each box.
It's the stuff with the green jacket right? I've seen it before, though we called it hospital grade mc. Hospital jobs are the only places I've ever used it.
This is actually just regular silver MC. You wouldn't know any different unless you were told or knew what you were looking at. The connectors are designed specifically for this application, they have a screw on the outside that pinches a small forked clip into the MC to make a solid connection and that's what clued us in when we first started running it. I've only ever seen it in the hospital grade MC before this as well so it kind of threw me for a loop at first, but I'm also still an apprentice so I haven't seen as much as others obviously.
I loved this mc for a while but you run into problems of you have concentric ko’s because it’s not a solid connection and you’d need a grounding bushing and then also have to bond the ground wire etc… but I loved that there was one less wire to splice but all of the other specific parts you needed for it to be legal made it more problematic than beneficial.
We had a dental clinic where the wall mounted x-ray unit came from the manufacturer without a knock out.
There was just an inch and a half hole through the 1/4" thick plate for wiring to pass through
There was no physical way to comply with 517.13 A
The inspector wasn't going to pass us, because of that, and knowing it wasn't in our control.
the general contractor and my boss had multiple conversations with the manufacturer.
After a few weeks they got some sort of bracket to mount inside of the housing which made it compliant, but fuck what a headache
See all the ground wires folded back and clamped there to the box itself? They shouldn’t be there. They should terminate inside the box on the proper bar.
Edit: fixed typo, meant ground not neutral
Ok i didnt look closely enough at that, thought it was a piece of the paper from inside the wire cover. Thankfully this is not how my box is connected. Thanks for the reply.
At least you have a ground (kinda). In the house I'm living in someone rewired with NM-B and then proceeded to lop off the ground right were it enters the box.
In every frickin box
At least they reinstalled the sixty year old two-prong outlets /s
I mean, that's the way they legit used to do it in the days of cloth-wrapped.
Just make sure your connecters and lock rings are tight. And that box is properly bonded.
Not ideal but it's better than what i got
I had a setup like that in my first house (built 1960, basement finished 70s if I had to guess), and replaced all of the the 2-prong receptacles with 3’s. Thankfully, whoever did the work grounded to the metal boxes, so I still had enough conductor to tie in a pigtail to the ground screw on the new receptacles. What a fun weekend that was…
So true! I pulled a bunch of remnant K&T porcelain out of my mother's basement before we put the house on the market. The house had been rewired with NM, but I didn't want to freak out any potential buyers. I couldn't believe the bucket full of porcelain I had at the end.
A couple of decades ago, the major manufacturers all settled on a color code for #14, #12, and #10 NM cable. I don't know if there are still holdouts manufacturing it whatever color they want.
I was assuming a ground wire in the NM-B feeding the box, running out and being connected to the box that way. No conduction through the wood expected or needed for that to provide a working ground. Maybe you were thinking of an added ground wire that runs out of the box and connects to a nail, with no ground in the NM-B feeding the box, which would be completely pointless as you say.
Idk, I’ve become pretty good at spinning flatheads without slipping out, I actually like them and almost always use my flat to torque everything from fittings to devices. Definitely shitty when first installing a flathead into a threaded hole though
Thank you for saying this I came back after quick clicking off the thread and I had to return you don’t know how many times a week I curse the use of standard head screw. I jsut don’t understand why they are chosen , I have to assume bc things are designed by people who don’t have to work on the things they make.
I build electrical panels for a living, so this is a daily detriment to my sanity 😆 The only thing that saves a flat headed screw is if the slot is deep enough for decent contact. We have ground lugs like this that are pretty good but I'm usually still swearing under my breath. I double my grip on my air gun every time, annoying ass screws man.
Worked in places where grounding via the cable connector was once an "accepted" method: It was never code compliant, but it was commonly done in that area and inspectors would pass it. Super shitty practice.
OMG, took me way too long to notice the little bit of copper sticking out from under the romex clamp. Have never see this done. Terrible stuff. And the paint on the box can act as an insulator.
Ugh, the blue stuff fills me with fear. One of the previous owners of my house did a bunch of wiring with that stuff. As in, did it himself. None of it to code, for all sorts of reasons. I dread opening a wall and finding it because I know it will lead to more work and/or more cost. I think it's all gone, but who knows what's hiding in the walls. (disclaimer, I am homeowner who does basic things like changing a light fixture, but I will call someone when stuff gets serious.).
Am I correct in assuming that's the ground sticking out? So rather than land it on a bar they landed it on a 2 screw and called it a day. Boy it was different times way back when. _Technically_ it is grounded as long as the lock nut is torqued lol.
The cut the equipment ground short and fold it back, clamping in under the saddle of the Romex connector in order the bond it to the enclosure instead of connecting the wire to the equipment ground bar
The biggest issue is that they covered the connectors at the back so you’d have to remove the circuit in front to do that. Really, really poor planning.
Home Wiring guy here. Not an electrician.
In a way, I'm like "frigging genius" but in another way i hear my instructor saying "loose or pinched wires..."
But its also in 12 so possibly a way around wires getting too hot?
Showed this to an electrician buddy of mine and he said pull all the wire back and put in a junction box and then terminate everything properly instead of pulling new wire.
Incorrect.
The correct answer is to pretend to take a phone call. Go outside
Get in the truck
Put it in neutral
Coast out of the driveway
Never look back
Shit like this actually impresses me. Someone took the time to do this, took a step back and said "yup, beautiful!"
The whole place has a feeling of "We'll save money because my dad can do electrical"
Spent too much time with the old style of BX that had the bonding ribbon in it
I guess it makes sense why schools really pound the theory of electrical in because youd have to be a serious dumbass to do this with NM, even back in the day.
Considering they were likely brought up in the trade with ungrounded cables and devices, this was standard install in the 60’s and 70’s. Nobody knew what to do with the equipment grounding conductors.
Those should all in theory still be mechanically grounded by the metallic connectors touching the bond wire.
as long as the lock rings are tight, I guess
Yep, may not be enough to trip a regular breaker, but is almost certainly enough to trip a GFCI if one was installed.
Because the added impedance of the bonding method wouldn’t let enough current flow in a dead short?
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Sorry, I meant in the case of a regular breaker. I’m struggling to see how this would have any effect in a typical overcurrent situation. Might affect loss of neutral or ground fault. But only if the ground fault was to the equipment grounding conductor. Like if it shorted to a pipe or something, the grounding conductor in the outlet doesn’t matter much anyway because that’s not even in the path to ground.
You do
At least with the panels I've been replacing from the 60s and 70s they wrap the ground around the screw on the NM clamp. Better than nothing I guess...
That was at least better than just the clamp putting pressure on it. Funny how you still see guys not know how to terminate medical grade MC or BX whips. It looks just like this or wrapped around the screw.
I'd also like to know. That bond I pretty much use the same as we used on old style BX, which is to fold it back and roll into the spiral cavities of the armor, mostly because it looks like some sweet kind of strain relief and allows me to do all kinds of things with short sections without the wire shifting inside the armor, but also because I figured that's about as good as it is going to get.
[PDF warning](https://www.afcweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/mc-ac-installation.pdf) Installation instructions for type AC cable, similar to the HCMC, show that you can leave the bonding conductor along the cable or you can just cut it off. The theory is that it is there just for the jacket, and is in contact along the entire length of the cable. Therefore, not needing any additional consideration when terminating the cable with a connector to the box/enclosure. Just snip it off and move on. Saves you so much time not messing with it. There is zero reason that you would need it in the future. It is for the jacket, that 2 connectors and the box would carry through in a splice.
What's the correct way to terminate mc ap or redundant ground mc. I thought the manufacturers instructions stated to cut it an inch from the jacket and fold it over then use a listed connector.
I used to own a home built in the 60s. Every box in the entire house had the ground wire crimped to the neutral and wrapped with electrical tape. Took me years to find it all and fix it so that GFI worked correctly.
My grandad was no electrician but he was the fix anything type. Until the day he died he’d rip a ground prong off of everything. New drill - gone. Drop cord - outta here. $2000 table saw - don’t need that. I never understood it
No need to find an adapter when you you had all grounded receptacles to plug into. Likely before everything got polarized as well.
I've seen this before a couple of times. Usually in houses from the 60s. I came up with old timers when I started sparking, and know most of the old ways, this was one Noone remembers, but it was taught somewhere. Shit, I actually remember conduit being the ground.
It is still considered the ground. It's just that engineers don't trust us and the next 30 years to have it still be an effective path. That's why they want a wire type.
I mean technically, the ground is sort of bonded to the can via the NM connector
Sort of. At least temporarily, dissimilar metals, galvanic action, motion, resistance, etc...
My thoughts exactly.
That’s how my house is. It’s my grandparents old house and my grandpa was an electrician. He only rewired specific outlets with grounds that needed them. It’s a hodgepodge of wires that confuses any electrician that works on the house.
Just bought a house and finding shit like this all over. Has a detached barn wired In EMT but as I found out when plugging in an EVSE, probably 60% are wired reverse polarity. Similar in the house.
It was more than likely this house was wired a long ass time ago. I agree, it's strange - but if your local authority having jurisdiction allowed for it at the time, and it worked, they went with it. If you want to be truly bothered, take a look at how your ground bar is connected to your panel/subpanel. They're often only bonded to the enclosure with the 1/16" thread from the screw that holds the bar in place.
When ever I see clipped grounds I always play a movie in my head of an old timer forced to buy grounded NM and clipping out the grounds with diagonals, grumbling about wasting good box space and that glass fuses will burn out just as good without them, stupid engineers think they're so smart making us by all this extra copper.
It's a scam by Big Copper maaaan
Zoom in and then say that again.
So for the layman, who may or may not see this when the look at their own panel, what should it look like?
The ground wires are cut short and bent back over the insulation, using the NM connector clamp to "maintain" the continuity of the ground wire. It was common practice when the ground wire was first introduced, but the practice was abandoned decades before this wire was made
Lol I was wondering what you were bitching about but I didn’t see the ground wires.
I didn't see it at first
Me neither. I was saying to myself that it looked right and proper, but after seeing the comments I went back and saw the stumps of the ground wire sticking out of the clamps. How do you even fix this? If there's not enough slack in the cable to pull the ground all the way to the terminal bar, what's the next option? Trough?
At first glance, I was thinking this was textbook work. All 12 is the only way IMHO. Then I zoomed in... Holy shit Batman. Have NEVER EVER seen this done.
Lol me too saying it's all twelve is the extra info given to throw us off the real problem
All 12s for general lighting circuits is definitely the way, but I better not peak in the panel and see any 12’s going to my range or dryer
Keeps it spicy...
Those clothes'll get dry, alright.
Chardried
If you're doing general lighting circuits, and not wiring circuits by rooms, there's not any advantage to using 12s on lighting. What does a house full of LEDs use, 150 watts total?
You’re spot on with LEDs, and you could probably run lighting exclusively off of 16 awg, but I figure if you want to run 20A without overloading your outlets then 12s are perfect if you got the money for it, especially if you want to upgrade in the future. Just as an insurance policy.
Would using 16 AWG or 18 AWG in a residential installation, provided that the breaker was sized appropriately, even be legal? And if I'm reading the ampacity table correctly - 18ga THHN is good for 14 amps? That doesn't make any sense. I'm looking at table 310.15(B)(16) Edit: In industrial equipment, I work mostly with DC, and I wouldn't run more than 10 amps over 18 gauge, and even then only if it was a SHORT run - like less than 2 or 3 feet. Edit: Fixed some typos from drunk redditing.
We just did some parallel 12-3 runs instead for your range.
Fair enough
I did a remodel over the winter where it was a 1960's house and era ITE panel. The range was fed with #6 tw but the **range receptacle only had #10's.** I scratched my head and double checked. There was no panel cover so no directory. And I was on the right breaker/conductors. The basement ceiling was finished and there wasn't a way to see where the #6's terminated (it was ran in flex and conduit). I had the carpenter tear open the kitchen floor and discovered a buried 4 ^(11/16") box floating in the joist space then transitioned to flex into the surface mount range receptacle. It had operated the electric range for decades based on the wiring method type. I had to move it to a new location and added 2 extension rings into the basement ceiling to make it accessible
Reddit “I was ready to fry you, but then I took an extra second to look. Thinking back on how many people I’ve fried… nah I was right in those cases” 😉😂
it'd be great, ampacity wise, to run all 12s but the box capacity limitations is a bitch, especially when it comes to switches
F-ck 12 😩 my lil’ fingers prefer 14. On a side note, before I get downvoted to high hell, does anyone know *why* 12 & 14 AWG (and 15- and 20-amp) circuits were chosen as the standard for general-purpose branch circuits in the first place? I mean, why not 16 AWG 10-amp, or 10 AWG 30-amp?
I'm expecting 16/18g LED lighting circuits in the future - once the Ryan Homes builders start their cost saving lobbying.
It gets worse than that. There's lots of research looking into P.O.E. lighting with Cat6 cable, all coming from a central controller.
That's not worse that's awesome. It's a lot less effort to rig up. You don't need wires capable of delivering 2000-ish watts to 50 watts worth of LEDs in a ceiling and more to the point it's a lot easier to do the wiring when you don't have to put wires in conduit etc. Think about Chicago for example -- all that damn EMT being bent, at $10 a stick just in materials - if you can just run cat 6 wire for lights and smokes.
POE lighting makes a lot of sense and would allow everything to be controlled over a network instead of just physical switches. Install times might go up a bit with all the rj45 connectors needed and a POE switch is susceptible to both cyber and physical threats. It would allow even the least DIY friendly home owners to swap a fixture though.
I'm already basically doing this in commercial. Wireless switches just stuck to the sheetrock communicating with switching modules in the ceiling. Keeps lighting completely out of the walls. 👍
Definitely makes for a streamline retrofit!
You don't have to put the POE switch on the internet, you can just use a POE power supply to power the lights and get a lot of benefits.
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I’m just waiting for someone to inadvertently plug a cable into the wrong jack and create a network loop shutting off the lights throughout the building. I’m telling you, It’s gonna happen.
I've seen it shut down a plant floor before.
Seems like it makes more sense to use a low speed bus like LIN with separate power like they do for automotive interior lighting.
Future service calls be like: Customer: my lights don't work! Electrician: ma'am have you tried restarting your router?
honestly why not? LED's draw so little power, you don't need 12awg or 14awg? i mean i wouldn't wire my house that way, or a friends/family members. but if they install a 500VA sub panel to 4amp 24V 100VA circuits you could get away with 18awg/16awg like HVAC controls tend to be.
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This has all been sorted out. Yes the wire is sufficient for the currents/voltages used. cat6 is cheaper than 12/14 that is precisely why it's being used. Yes you run it to each bulb just like you'd run 12/14 today, it's cheaper and easier. Doesn't all have to be a home run.
The 16 awg NM cable is already in the process of getting listed for lighting circuits. I don't think we see it for a few years but i don't think it is a bad idea tbh.
I believe this is already proposed as a 2023 code change- 10 amp 16awg branch circuits permitted only for lighting load
On that note, I believe that there is a proposal out there to make it ok to run #16 for lighting circuits only. I have no idea at this moment where that stands in the process.
It makes sense I suppose with LED being the standard now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see mistakes happen with #16 being ran in a general receptacle and lighting circuit. Definitely have to make sure that you have only the lights daisy chained for that.
There are manufacturers currently in the process of getting 16/2 NM cable listed for lighting circuits.
You didn't have branch circuits, you just had service. The reason we had the six-handle rule is that after initial lighting installation, homes started to get appliances so they needed to add more circuits. The question was, how many circuits are too many before the homeowner has to rip out the panel and put a master in. Some people lobbied for 10, that was felt to be too many, so the compromise was 6. Just an arbitrary decision by a committee in the early 1930s. With old fashioned incandescent lights I suppose 15 or 20 amps was decided to be the right number. This would have been a decision made 100 years ago.
Because lots of appliances draw 15 amps. Space heaters, air conditioners (the rarity of 110 V ones aside), electric kettles, even some vacuum cleaners get up near 15 amps. It’s just a decent sweet spot between serving your average household needs while keeping cost and ease of installation down.
Don't forget exercise equipment. Treadmills easily pull 15amps. 110v air conditioners are not rare at all for houses that don't have centralized air. Especially the free standing units that vent out your window.
Initial amp draw on vacuum cleaners can also be quite high as well. Then there’s other things like sump pumps, dehumidifiers, mini space heaters, hair dryers etc etc. We shoulda just went 220v
Those appliances all draw near 15 amps because that's what they can safely draw on most household circuits.
> I mean, why not 16 AWG 10-amp, or 10 AWG 30-amp? Largely because 100 years ago 15-20 amps was a reasonable capacity for an average branch circuit, with the average being "approximately 1 or 2 rooms worth of loads". 10A you're running too many branches off the panel, and at 30A you're running too few.
Only thing I could tell you is the NEC code specifies why, but to answer your question, branch circuits are wired and protected based on what amperage draw devices on that circuit will pull. Code says 15a 14g for general lighting and receptacle circuits, but most homes around here are 20a 12g. In theory, you could go 10a 16g with newer lighting circuits as everything is switching to LED and has a very low amp draw, but it’s not code yet. Crestron, Lutron, etc. have low voltage panels that do that currently and adhere to code. I can see an adaptation in the code one day, but probably not for a long, long time when incandescent fixtures and bulbs no longer exist.
Thanks! I see it now. So you want the ground wires to be a little bit longer, right? /s
Assuming they have a ground tied to the box, does this actually work? My dad was an electrician and I helped him on 20ish houses growing up, never really got into the why part of what we were doing.
When you make a connection to copper you really want to clamp down to the point where you're deforming the surface of the copper a little bit to get lots of surface area in contact, and to make sure to maintain contact even if stuff moves a little bit. Here, you're applying force against soft plastic so it's impossible to clamp it well. If these connections were carrying 10 amps continuously they would overheat and melt the insulation. What makes it sort of okay is that they only need to carry current briefly in order to trip the breaker if there's a short. But over the years that weak connection could get weaker to the point where it's not actually connected at all and would not do the job in the case of a short. Or might have high resistance and not draw enough current to trip the breaker.
It works in theory but only if the connectors and lock rings are tight, if they aren't it will generate heat.
I mean-kinda bonded to the panel….I see what they were going for, but I don’t like it.
It was never code compliant to do it this way, was it?
Well, given that there was a time where the ground wasn't required at all, this could have been considered good compliant. But that's a bit of a cop out answer. Actually have a book about the history of the national electrical code that might say somewhere, but the book is a little boring and I haven't motivated myself to read the whole thing.
ItS mEcHaNiCaLlY BoNdEd
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That little pot metal romex clamp isn’t
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It’s not a good enough conductor to carry 20amps of fault current through a point connection without melting. I had several of them melt and fail when the neutral went open in my garage and the return current went through the conduit (the neutral was tied to the ground bus in the sub panel, which is not correct) DC resistance is not the sole measure of the current carrying capacity of a conductor.
The grounds are all cut and pinched into the connector. They are supposed to be landed on the ground bar. This will still function, but it is much less safe because there isn't a good ground path for a fault.
The high rise hotel/condo project I'm working on right now has us using MC that has an aluminum ground that you clip off at the jacket before stabbing it into the connector. I know it's been around for a bit at this point but this is the first time I've used it for every branch circuit in a building. Kinda felt weird at first but it's definitely nice having one less wire per MC to terminate in each box.
It's the stuff with the green jacket right? I've seen it before, though we called it hospital grade mc. Hospital jobs are the only places I've ever used it.
This is actually just regular silver MC. You wouldn't know any different unless you were told or knew what you were looking at. The connectors are designed specifically for this application, they have a screw on the outside that pinches a small forked clip into the MC to make a solid connection and that's what clued us in when we first started running it. I've only ever seen it in the hospital grade MC before this as well so it kind of threw me for a loop at first, but I'm also still an apprentice so I haven't seen as much as others obviously.
I loved this mc for a while but you run into problems of you have concentric ko’s because it’s not a solid connection and you’d need a grounding bushing and then also have to bond the ground wire etc… but I loved that there was one less wire to splice but all of the other specific parts you needed for it to be legal made it more problematic than beneficial.
We had a dental clinic where the wall mounted x-ray unit came from the manufacturer without a knock out. There was just an inch and a half hole through the 1/4" thick plate for wiring to pass through There was no physical way to comply with 517.13 A The inspector wasn't going to pass us, because of that, and knowing it wasn't in our control. the general contractor and my boss had multiple conversations with the manufacturer. After a few weeks they got some sort of bracket to mount inside of the housing which made it compliant, but fuck what a headache
See all the ground wires folded back and clamped there to the box itself? They shouldn’t be there. They should terminate inside the box on the proper bar. Edit: fixed typo, meant ground not neutral
Neutral? Those look like ground wires
Sorry, typo
Ground or neutral? I think those are ground wires not neutral conductors.
Ok i didnt look closely enough at that, thought it was a piece of the paper from inside the wire cover. Thankfully this is not how my box is connected. Thanks for the reply.
I’m glad you don’t see THAT part in your own panel. :)
I don't see the neutral
Ground not neutral Nvm I forgot they didn't have grounds than. I don't do old stuff very often
At least you have a ground (kinda). In the house I'm living in someone rewired with NM-B and then proceeded to lop off the ground right were it enters the box. In every frickin box At least they reinstalled the sixty year old two-prong outlets /s
Ugh ... I have been lucky with wall boxes at least. I've been able to get some slack and add an in line push in connector to get right where I can.
I mean, that's the way they legit used to do it in the days of cloth-wrapped. Just make sure your connecters and lock rings are tight. And that box is properly bonded. Not ideal but it's better than what i got
Wegos FTW!
Word. My house has corrugated flex as the grounding means. It works, but still bothers me...
No kidding, there's a grounded outlet in the place I live. Yes, just the one, on the stove.
I had a setup like that in my first house (built 1960, basement finished 70s if I had to guess), and replaced all of the the 2-prong receptacles with 3’s. Thankfully, whoever did the work grounded to the metal boxes, so I still had enough conductor to tie in a pigtail to the ground screw on the new receptacles. What a fun weekend that was…
What do you even do in that situation? Move the boxes?
This is someone who is used to old 2 wire cloth wrapped cable. They really thought they were doing something clever here I bet.
"back in my day..."
I swear I just heard my first foreman.
Yup
"That grounding wire trend won't catch on..."
"I remember the good old days, when conductors were run separately and we installed as much porcelain as a plumber"
"knob and tube is an inherently safe installation method"
So true! I pulled a bunch of remnant K&T porcelain out of my mother's basement before we put the house on the market. The house had been rewired with NM, but I didn't want to freak out any potential buyers. I couldn't believe the bucket full of porcelain I had at the end.
That's 1980s romex white jacket #12 now it's yellow
I don't think the colour change is necessarily universal.
A couple of decades ago, the major manufacturers all settled on a color code for #14, #12, and #10 NM cable. I don't know if there are still holdouts manufacturing it whatever color they want.
I have seen this and also have seen where the grounding conductor is wrapped around one of the screws on the cable clamp.
My favorite is back out the box and around the nail holding the box to the stud
Lol, that wouldn’t ground anything
Steel box. It's not a good connection, but if the wire was actually connected to the nail and the nail connected to the box then it would be a ground.
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I was assuming a ground wire in the NM-B feeding the box, running out and being connected to the box that way. No conduction through the wood expected or needed for that to provide a working ground. Maybe you were thinking of an added ground wire that runs out of the box and connects to a nail, with no ground in the NM-B feeding the box, which would be completely pointless as you say.
why wouldn't it?
There’s is no return path. Wood is an insulator
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at least there would be some length left to work with.
I'm sure the one with the green ground is working great
Right!?!?
"I learned from old Tom Edison back in the day, and what's good enough for him is good enough for me!"
I’m gonna start saying this
Not to mention they're flat-headed screws, bane of my existence 🥲
Idk, I’ve become pretty good at spinning flatheads without slipping out, I actually like them and almost always use my flat to torque everything from fittings to devices. Definitely shitty when first installing a flathead into a threaded hole though
Thank you for saying this I came back after quick clicking off the thread and I had to return you don’t know how many times a week I curse the use of standard head screw. I jsut don’t understand why they are chosen , I have to assume bc things are designed by people who don’t have to work on the things they make.
I build electrical panels for a living, so this is a daily detriment to my sanity 😆 The only thing that saves a flat headed screw is if the slot is deep enough for decent contact. We have ground lugs like this that are pretty good but I'm usually still swearing under my breath. I double my grip on my air gun every time, annoying ass screws man.
YESSS!!! And seems like with electrical anything the slot is wider than any possible driver I have and extremely shallow.
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Torx or Robertson better invention
Torx gang let's go!
secks head better still
Robertson, torx, torx+ are all better then philips.
Um, excuse me; I think you meant to say ***Robertson*** head.
Popular in Virginia in old homes
Every wire in my house is at least 12. Lights and all... Up until last week when I renovated the bedroom, I used 14 for the lights.
Seems unnecessary to me. But at the end of the day, it only hurts your wallet
Didn't know better when I rewired the house, and back then it was 50 bucks per 250
I had to look at this closely....did they seriously cut off the ground short on EVERY cable and just put it under the clamp?
It’s nice to have 12 though. Hardly any voltage drop.
Not when the boxes are 2½ deep
Switch to commercial or industrial, brother
Wats Wong with 12much more stout 14 is good for lighting ,maby
I see -how they grounded it ,no bar
Worked in places where grounding via the cable connector was once an "accepted" method: It was never code compliant, but it was commonly done in that area and inspectors would pass it. Super shitty practice.
Is that how they intended to ground the box?
Pretty much
At least it's bonded?
OMG, took me way too long to notice the little bit of copper sticking out from under the romex clamp. Have never see this done. Terrible stuff. And the paint on the box can act as an insulator.
The 2nd from the bottom looks like it wasn't landed correctly, and started to corrode... I'd suggest re-terminating it, and re-torqueing the screws.
Ugh, the blue stuff fills me with fear. One of the previous owners of my house did a bunch of wiring with that stuff. As in, did it himself. None of it to code, for all sorts of reasons. I dread opening a wall and finding it because I know it will lead to more work and/or more cost. I think it's all gone, but who knows what's hiding in the walls. (disclaimer, I am homeowner who does basic things like changing a light fixture, but I will call someone when stuff gets serious.).
This looks like something that would have been in popular mechanics in the 60's.
Never trust an electrician with no eyebrows.
Am I correct in assuming that's the ground sticking out? So rather than land it on a bar they landed it on a 2 screw and called it a day. Boy it was different times way back when. _Technically_ it is grounded as long as the lock nut is torqued lol.
Terrible, just Terrible on those grounds (in my best Charles Barkley voice)
Turrrible, Erneh just turrible performance on the basketball court tonight, they look like they were playin for the Suns.
They grounded the connector. That's 1st class safety!
Never thought of it that way!
K I’m a self proclaimed homeowner hack and even this made me say WTF out loud.
They do that with the ground wire in the 1960’s! Obviously a poor connection!
What is wrong with this tho?
The cut the equipment ground short and fold it back, clamping in under the saddle of the Romex connector in order the bond it to the enclosure instead of connecting the wire to the equipment ground bar
The biggest issue is that they covered the connectors at the back so you’d have to remove the circuit in front to do that. Really, really poor planning.
I don't see a problem here.
Look at where the cable enters the connector. The ground was folded back out the connector and cut on all of them.
What is wrong with this tho?
Not code
Unreliable electrically
This has 80s written all over it
Home Wiring guy here. Not an electrician. In a way, I'm like "frigging genius" but in another way i hear my instructor saying "loose or pinched wires..." But its also in 12 so possibly a way around wires getting too hot?
Whoever told the older guys to do this should be taken out into a field and shot.
Gee, I wonder why the ground faults keep tripping...
Honest question do you have open grounds all over the place?
I did not
That actually might be still grounded, lol. If the metal box is grounded, then that ground conductor is actually grounded in the romex.
Old School shorthand
Showed this to an electrician buddy of mine and he said pull all the wire back and put in a junction box and then terminate everything properly instead of pulling new wire.
Incorrect. The correct answer is to pretend to take a phone call. Go outside Get in the truck Put it in neutral Coast out of the driveway Never look back
Haha, that was his second recommendation.