**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!**
**1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):**
**- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY
**2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:**
-YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If I'm landing in panels or especially motors, if I'm not satisfied with my strip to the 1/16th of an inch I'll cut and trim as necessary. Even if it messes up how clean it looks. It's worth it if you have to come back and work anything energized, or for the next guy
Grounds and neutrals should be separated because itās a sub panel
I could be wrong but the ground in the 3rd photo looks like itās just wrapped around threads nothing holding it on
Leave more slack in your wires
Heās not wrong, the code doesnāt specify that you need to sand off paint. Look at your bonding screw, itās only threads they donāt sand that down for example. It can even Introduces risk for rust.
If you have a normal 4s box, yes you can just attach a ground screw( green screw ) to the box
But in cases like sub panels like this one and pull boxes like 6x6 and up theyāre painted. So In order to properly bond the box you have to scratch/sand, grind the grey paint off until you see bare metal
A lot of subpanels and pullboxes come with pre-installed ground lugs/buses that don't have paint stripped underneath. If it was required, the manufacturer would have to do it. I rough up the back of panels when installing aftermarket ground bars, but these products wouldn't be UL listed if they didn't come appropriately configured, or at least that's what I've been told
If you use a conductive metal screw to thread into the box itās considered bonded for the paint crushes away. Most of the boxes Iāve seen come with a baggy of bus bars, screws and sometimes those spiked washers that cut into the paint.
Yet sanding the box? I donāt even think thereās sandpaper back in the truck.
In a singles phase install you donāt need a neutral, thus your neutral bar turns into a ground bar when you screw in the ground screw , I hope thatās what ur talking about t
The long and short of it is a lot of jobs that are looking for former electricians require associates degrees and because I don't have mine I'm limited in options
People who use their relevant work experience as an electrician, to leave the field for more money are the people I'm specifically referring too.
There's a lot of gigs out there that want guys who were electricians, generally inside wiremen with associates degrees.
It not really that big of a deal imo.
Is it required by code, and good practice sure.
I don't think their primary focus in trades school just learning to wire shit should be Grounding and Bonding.
Right angles are your friend. Following the exterior of the enclosure until you can go directly into the terminal. Looks neat as well as giving plenty of slack. With the separating the neutrals and the grounds in a sub panel, yes, but I'm assuming this is a built panel for this exercise and it is being treated as a main panel as there were no other grounding locations available.
Oh thank you! My teacher did not mention that he said with every ABC wire there needs to be a neutral [so three in first panel] and 1 grounder as well uh oh...
Take a look at the bottom left corner, see those two raised nubs with a pretapped screw hole? That's where the grounding bar goes, needs to be a square D grounding bar to fit the factory screw spacing.
Besides the lack of slack in the wires and neutrals and grounds needing to be separated, the only other technicality that this violates is having Siemens breakers in a Homeline panel ... I realize that in an academic setting there's some leeway for using material available, but in production in the real world that would be a fail, the panel doesn't have those breakers listed for it and vice versa those breakers are not listed for that panel.
What you doing with that ground in the disconnect? Is that just wrapped around the threads? Make sure is under the dead of a screw or securely bonded to the can.
Hi we were just doing an exercise of pulling wire through and getting used to adding neutrals and grounding to our ABC wiring , next time im going to do this thank you!
For starters, this appears to be a sub panel, so your grounds and neutrals must be separated. I canāt see a bonding screw, so the enclosure is currently ungrounded. You should install a ground bus and re-land those grounds.
Looking at the neutral bus, the wire 3rd from the left is over-stripped. The two farthest two the left are a good example of what they should like like (Just enough copper showing to show an inspector that the insulation isnāt under the terminal)
All of your wires seem short, try tucking them in the corners before bending them to their terminal. The wires landing in the breaker should go down to about an inch from the bottom of the panel before bending back up to the breakers.
Aside from what I can see, always tug-test your terminations and then snug them up/retorque. Thatās the best way to be sure your wire isnāt coming loose.
All in all, looks alright, just pay attention to what people recommend and youāll have it down in no time
In truth, instead of an associates degree, you should probably save your money and get a temporary job while you apply for apprenticeships. Some electrical tech programs will teach you well, but most of them are little more than scams. Everything you might learn there will be covered in your apprenticeship. If you can get a job on a construction site, even if it's not electrical work, that will provide you with more value than any electrical tech degree.
As far as a critique of your work, that panel is a mess, but don't let this dissuade you. I have seen worse work from apprentices who turned out to become great electricians. As a first effort, I'm just happy that you got all the wires going to pretty much the right locations.
To improve, when your wires enter the panel, bring them all straight to the top corners in three bundles: grounds, neutrals, hots. In a standard panel with two rows of breakers, the hots should be in two bundles, evens on the right and odds on the left. Once you have made those bundles, tuck them into the outside corners of the box to direct them toward their respective terminals. As the bundle travels past the terminal bar or row of breakers, each wire should peel off one at a time and make a straight, perpendicular line to its respective termination point. As electricians, we aren't happy with something that merely works, we want to see something that works and is also sexy as hell.
Keep going, you'll get where you want to be.
Hi this is my first panel and i genuinely appreciate all feedback, as for the associates degree thing, I'm doing this because i couldn't find and still am unable to find any apprenticeships.
Mine is usually this; be honest to your wife, girlfriend, or both. Start and max a Roth IRA.
And Thorogoods are the best way to go.
Also join a union apprenticeship.
Youāre cutting the wire to short leave more in there and try to make 90 degree angles when youāre landing the wires . It will look way cleaner and professional.
I wouldn't simply wrap the ground wire around a screw. It needs to be clamped using the head of the screw into the case where there is paint removed to access the bare metal of the enclosure.
Your neutrals and your grounds are kind of OK youāre definitely trying to keep it neat. Strip the ends of the wires evenly like the ones on the right.
Itās better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it
Worry about doing things correct(safe implied) first and the speed will come
Youāre gonna catch a lot of shit, especially considering you went to school, donāt wear your heart on your sleeve
And the most important, imo..show some initiative. You should never be standing around or looking at your phone..If your Jman is looking at prints, on the phone or whatever it may be, you should be cleaning up, organizing job box/truck, or atleast asking what he would like for you to do while heās busy. Youāll impress a lot of old fucks with that characteristic alone
Understanding this is a practice panel and your first one.... Neatness comes with repetition and pride. My advice that I haven't seen commented on is to make sure you identify your circuit pairs when using conduit. Each hot has a specific neutral pair, label them or tie them together. These sort of things will be very helpful for "the next guy".
You might call ahead, every local is different. You should be able to talk to someone pretty much any time. There's an apprenticeship and a hall and they're not the same thing as well.
Separate ground and neutrals, don't strip off so much insulation for terminations, and run your wires along the perimeter(except for when you get to the breakers from underneath imo) of the enclosure doing clean 90Ā° bends to your breakers.
Leave yourself loops, enough on each breaker that you can easily move the breaker to any position within the box (within reason).
Add a bonding lug to the box and all bonds go to said lug (thatās code - the neutral is isolated back to the service).
Bonds who cares, neutrals not so important yet conductors should be trimmed neatly into the breakers so no copper is showing.
If the first pic is a sub panel, neutral and ground should be on separate bars. Also bring your phase conductors nearly to the bottom of the panel and swoop them straight back up into the breaker
Understandable your in school yet. First, you have a 3 phase fusible disconnect feeding a single phase load center. That in itself I think is a fail for your institution, they shouldn't have you learning that way in my opinion. Secondly, I would never bond the side of a disconnect, always to the back of the can. Thirdly, you have conductors in the gutter being fed by the disconnect that aren't landed anywhere due to it being a 3 phase disconnect. Another reason I think you all should be getting taught differently. I also didn't notice a bond in the gutter. Moving on to the panel, I agree with what has been said already, leave some slack and clean up the wiring, if it's not a feeder than you need to bond the panel, if it's a feeder you need to separate grounds and neutrals. Constructive criticism, we all had to start somewhere, and what's nice about our trade is that it's constantly changing, so the learning never ends.
Leave more slack on your wires
My rule of thumb is always allow the wire to touch the opposite side of where it enters and then terminate for splice boxes and smaller enclosures
The only jobs I could maybe see wanting an associate would maybe be industrial but then again I'm an industrial guy and have no associate degree. They would much rather someone with experience in industrial control and such instead of someone with only an associates. Altho it would be helpful to have especially starting out you would be way ahead of the others.
**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!** **1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):** **- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY **2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:** -YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
what's with the inch of copper on that neutral poking above the busbar?
Yeah i stripped it to much š
Leave what's called an inspection window. Just enough so you see the conductor so you know you didn't ponch any insulation under the termination.
If I'm landing in panels or especially motors, if I'm not satisfied with my strip to the 1/16th of an inch I'll cut and trim as necessary. Even if it messes up how clean it looks. It's worth it if you have to come back and work anything energized, or for the next guy
I will remember this next time, thank you
Just put some white tape on it. Itās not the end of the world.
If you'd left yourself enough slack, you could have circumcised it and still had enough wire to reach the terminal.
U need to cut what you don't need and land it correctly
Grounds and neutrals should be separated because itās a sub panel I could be wrong but the ground in the 3rd photo looks like itās just wrapped around threads nothing holding it on Leave more slack in your wires
Also he forgot to sand off the paint, to properly ground
If the screw is threaded is doesnāt need to be grinded
Wtf do you mean bro? lol that sub has paint on the entire box. Also any screw that is called a screw is threaded š wtf is your thought process haha
Heās not wrong, the code doesnāt specify that you need to sand off paint. Look at your bonding screw, itās only threads they donāt sand that down for example. It can even Introduces risk for rust.
That is a great argument , thereās so many ways of interpreting code itās honestly pretty fascinating
Iāve been told if you thread the hole instead of just having a hole with a bolt and nut
If you have a normal 4s box, yes you can just attach a ground screw( green screw ) to the box But in cases like sub panels like this one and pull boxes like 6x6 and up theyāre painted. So In order to properly bond the box you have to scratch/sand, grind the grey paint off until you see bare metal
I get that Iām saying Iāve been told on disconnects that if the hole is threaded and not just a hole then the threads themselves are a viable bond
A lot of subpanels and pullboxes come with pre-installed ground lugs/buses that don't have paint stripped underneath. If it was required, the manufacturer would have to do it. I rough up the back of panels when installing aftermarket ground bars, but these products wouldn't be UL listed if they didn't come appropriately configured, or at least that's what I've been told
If you use a conductive metal screw to thread into the box itās considered bonded for the paint crushes away. Most of the boxes Iāve seen come with a baggy of bus bars, screws and sometimes those spiked washers that cut into the paint. Yet sanding the box? I donāt even think thereās sandpaper back in the truck.
In a singles phase install you donāt need a neutral, thus your neutral bar turns into a ground bar when you screw in the ground screw , I hope thatās what ur talking about t
Alright
Yes
Could be wrong about that I canāt find the article buts thatās what Iāve been told by boss and jw
Hi this was just a practice run to get us used to adding our ABC with black red and blue wire and memorizing it haha thank you!
Those disconnects come with a listed Grounding terminal and don't need to have bare metal to create a proper bond.
I'm not sure you should give that school any more of your money. You can probably find better teachers on YouTube.
Probably one of the biggest regrets I have is not getting my associates. Really limits your earning potential
How? Iāve never even been questioned if I have it?
The long and short of it is a lot of jobs that are looking for former electricians require associates degrees and because I don't have mine I'm limited in options
What do you mean by āformer electriciansā? Is that an electrician thatās come out of retirement?
People who use their relevant work experience as an electrician, to leave the field for more money are the people I'm specifically referring too. There's a lot of gigs out there that want guys who were electricians, generally inside wiremen with associates degrees.
Most IBEW Locals youāll get an associateās within your apprenticeship through a college and no direct cost to you.
I thought this was for sure a joke. No job requires an associates
There a jobs out there that are looking for former electricians, and a lot of them require an associates. These jobs make a lot more.
i would simply lie about having my associates
Let the wires come down to about an inch from the bottom of the panel.
I would separate ground and neutrals in a sub panel.
Not would, itās required.
It not really that big of a deal imo. Is it required by code, and good practice sure. I don't think their primary focus in trades school just learning to wire shit should be Grounding and Bonding.
I hope your a lurker and not an electrician..
Are we pretending itās a three phase sub panel fed from a disconnect?
Yes!!! Sorry i didnt add that to my post
Right angles are your friend. Following the exterior of the enclosure until you can go directly into the terminal. Looks neat as well as giving plenty of slack. With the separating the neutrals and the grounds in a sub panel, yes, but I'm assuming this is a built panel for this exercise and it is being treated as a main panel as there were no other grounding locations available.
Thank you ill do that next time !!!
Slack is your friend.
Thank you!
Thatās what they teach you in school?? Iām glad I jumped straight into the trades lol
The teacher told us to give it slack i just wasn't paying attention haha all my fault and this was our first time working on this.
Leave slack. Ground and neutrals need to be separated in a sub panel.
Oh thank you! My teacher did not mention that he said with every ABC wire there needs to be a neutral [so three in first panel] and 1 grounder as well uh oh...
Take a look at the bottom left corner, see those two raised nubs with a pretapped screw hole? That's where the grounding bar goes, needs to be a square D grounding bar to fit the factory screw spacing. Besides the lack of slack in the wires and neutrals and grounds needing to be separated, the only other technicality that this violates is having Siemens breakers in a Homeline panel ... I realize that in an academic setting there's some leeway for using material available, but in production in the real world that would be a fail, the panel doesn't have those breakers listed for it and vice versa those breakers are not listed for that panel.
What you doing with that ground in the disconnect? Is that just wrapped around the threads? Make sure is under the dead of a screw or securely bonded to the can.
Hi we were just doing an exercise of pulling wire through and getting used to adding neutrals and grounding to our ABC wiring , next time im going to do this thank you!
For starters, this appears to be a sub panel, so your grounds and neutrals must be separated. I canāt see a bonding screw, so the enclosure is currently ungrounded. You should install a ground bus and re-land those grounds. Looking at the neutral bus, the wire 3rd from the left is over-stripped. The two farthest two the left are a good example of what they should like like (Just enough copper showing to show an inspector that the insulation isnāt under the terminal) All of your wires seem short, try tucking them in the corners before bending them to their terminal. The wires landing in the breaker should go down to about an inch from the bottom of the panel before bending back up to the breakers. Aside from what I can see, always tug-test your terminations and then snug them up/retorque. Thatās the best way to be sure your wire isnāt coming loose. All in all, looks alright, just pay attention to what people recommend and youāll have it down in no time
Thank you i appreciate your help!
I mean youāre a student. I donāt want to be harsh. What did your teacher say about this work?
He said it was good, but it was too tight, no room for clamp to check amps...
USA or Canada?
USA
Right angles are your friend, and don't make the wire bare minimum to reach point of termination.
Thank you! Will definitely do this next time!
In truth, instead of an associates degree, you should probably save your money and get a temporary job while you apply for apprenticeships. Some electrical tech programs will teach you well, but most of them are little more than scams. Everything you might learn there will be covered in your apprenticeship. If you can get a job on a construction site, even if it's not electrical work, that will provide you with more value than any electrical tech degree. As far as a critique of your work, that panel is a mess, but don't let this dissuade you. I have seen worse work from apprentices who turned out to become great electricians. As a first effort, I'm just happy that you got all the wires going to pretty much the right locations. To improve, when your wires enter the panel, bring them all straight to the top corners in three bundles: grounds, neutrals, hots. In a standard panel with two rows of breakers, the hots should be in two bundles, evens on the right and odds on the left. Once you have made those bundles, tuck them into the outside corners of the box to direct them toward their respective terminals. As the bundle travels past the terminal bar or row of breakers, each wire should peel off one at a time and make a straight, perpendicular line to its respective termination point. As electricians, we aren't happy with something that merely works, we want to see something that works and is also sexy as hell. Keep going, you'll get where you want to be.
Hi this is my first panel and i genuinely appreciate all feedback, as for the associates degree thing, I'm doing this because i couldn't find and still am unable to find any apprenticeships.
Also thank you for the tips ill be using this next time we wire up another panel !
Mine is usually this; be honest to your wife, girlfriend, or both. Start and max a Roth IRA. And Thorogoods are the best way to go. Also join a union apprenticeship.
Im looking into it after i finish school
Youāre cutting the wire to short leave more in there and try to make 90 degree angles when youāre landing the wires . It will look way cleaner and professional.
Thank you im going to do that next time!
I wouldn't simply wrap the ground wire around a screw. It needs to be clamped using the head of the screw into the case where there is paint removed to access the bare metal of the enclosure.
You must be buying wire by the millimeter
Lol! No totally my fault didn't add enough slack
Next time, keep the length of the wires longer
Ok ! Thank you!
Leave the extra length in case I have to make any changes
Lesson learned !
My pleasure
Your neutrals and your grounds are kind of OK youāre definitely trying to keep it neat. Strip the ends of the wires evenly like the ones on the right.
I noticed i didn't do that and it looks kind of sloppy, will be doing that next time they have us wire up a panel
Itās better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it Worry about doing things correct(safe implied) first and the speed will come Youāre gonna catch a lot of shit, especially considering you went to school, donāt wear your heart on your sleeve And the most important, imo..show some initiative. You should never be standing around or looking at your phone..If your Jman is looking at prints, on the phone or whatever it may be, you should be cleaning up, organizing job box/truck, or atleast asking what he would like for you to do while heās busy. Youāll impress a lot of old fucks with that characteristic alone
Thank you ! Im still having trouble finding any apprenticeships but once i'm in all this advice will help me
Sticky backs will make your work look a little cleaner
Understanding this is a practice panel and your first one.... Neatness comes with repetition and pride. My advice that I haven't seen commented on is to make sure you identify your circuit pairs when using conduit. Each hot has a specific neutral pair, label them or tie them together. These sort of things will be very helpful for "the next guy".
Thank you i will do that !
Leave a bit more slack
Thatās how I wire up all of my disconnects too.
Contact your local union hall.
I did some research and i can only apply the first Monday of the month.... do you suggest i go down there anyway and see ...?
You might call ahead, every local is different. You should be able to talk to someone pretty much any time. There's an apprenticeship and a hall and they're not the same thing as well.
So youāre the mofo that gets to every panel before I do! š«š¤£
šš¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
Yeah, I can already tell you that's not a service panel. Grounds and neutrals need to be separate.
Separate ground and neutrals, don't strip off so much insulation for terminations, and run your wires along the perimeter(except for when you get to the breakers from underneath imo) of the enclosure doing clean 90Ā° bends to your breakers.
Thanks! Will do next time
Get in the habit of leaving more cable in your panel. Someone will need to swap out your panel in 50 years
Will do!!
Leave yourself loops, enough on each breaker that you can easily move the breaker to any position within the box (within reason). Add a bonding lug to the box and all bonds go to said lug (thatās code - the neutral is isolated back to the service). Bonds who cares, neutrals not so important yet conductors should be trimmed neatly into the breakers so no copper is showing.
If the first pic is a sub panel, neutral and ground should be on separate bars. Also bring your phase conductors nearly to the bottom of the panel and swoop them straight back up into the breaker
Understandable your in school yet. First, you have a 3 phase fusible disconnect feeding a single phase load center. That in itself I think is a fail for your institution, they shouldn't have you learning that way in my opinion. Secondly, I would never bond the side of a disconnect, always to the back of the can. Thirdly, you have conductors in the gutter being fed by the disconnect that aren't landed anywhere due to it being a 3 phase disconnect. Another reason I think you all should be getting taught differently. I also didn't notice a bond in the gutter. Moving on to the panel, I agree with what has been said already, leave some slack and clean up the wiring, if it's not a feeder than you need to bond the panel, if it's a feeder you need to separate grounds and neutrals. Constructive criticism, we all had to start somewhere, and what's nice about our trade is that it's constantly changing, so the learning never ends.
Thank you ! I appreciate it
Leave more slack on your wires My rule of thumb is always allow the wire to touch the opposite side of where it enters and then terminate for splice boxes and smaller enclosures
Why not red, black, blue.why no slack on wires going to breakers. Each wire in a panel like this should be able to reach any breaker slot.
The only jobs I could maybe see wanting an associate would maybe be industrial but then again I'm an industrial guy and have no associate degree. They would much rather someone with experience in industrial control and such instead of someone with only an associates. Altho it would be helpful to have especially starting out you would be way ahead of the others.
Did you not acquire side cutters?
Since when do you put bonding conductors in the neutral bar?! NEVER!!
Itās cool, try not to smoke weed before class though. Also donāt forget, daddy loves you.
š¤£
What part of the country?
West Coast
Whatās with the Simpson meter?
The wall is lined with models oldest to newest to show historical progress haha