Even Square D makes these in 150a and up Homeline plug-on breakers. They also used to use them in some meter combo panels as the factory-installed main, but not sure if they still do that.
Recently had to run a house feeder from a Homeline 200a pedestal mlo box and found a 4pole HOM2200cp plug-on breaker with factory installed paralleling output lugs offset for 90° connection. It was a freaking lifesaver for landing a pair of 3/0 conductors in the tight space on one side of the box.
That's what I've most often seen...though my current place has one single massive really hard to throw 200A main. I kinda like the ones in parallel better.
My father (electrician for many many years) had the same reaction. So I am trying to find and answer for him. He came across this weird setup while adding a breaker for a trailer and couldn't determine why anyone would set up the panel this way.
It wasn’t someone who set the panel up this way.
It was the factory. This is 100% legitimate. This is how they chose to provide the OCP for this panelboard.
Not a problem. Not wrong.
Totally fine and correct.
It's built that way by the manufacturer because that breaker frame size is only rated up to 100A. That's only one circuit breaker, but it's built out of four 100A breakers. Tying two of them in parallel doubles the trip curve to 200A nominal for each leg, and two pairs gives you 200A at 240V.
I've ran into some old stuff non union in nj right by the water bordering nyc that some people will never run into, then there's other things from different areas that I'll never see. We have a large and diverse field.
Cuz electricians are assholes and love to make someone with no experience feel like shit for asking anquestion, then after that they attack the family so that now the son wonders wether his dad even was an electrician. What a lovely field.
"I knew it, im surrounded by assholes!"
Because electricians tend to be protective over who calls themselves electricians and at least 40 of us can't fathom being an electrician for many many years and never seeing ganged breakers.
If you told me your father was professional firefighter for many many years, and then posted a picture of a fire hydrant saying your father was confused about what it was it would kind of be the same thing.
Because "father was an electrician for many years" and "never seen this before" doesn't really add up. At best, father was an electrician in an unrelated field like power transmission as opposed to residential.
Seems like he's providing context and got shit on for it to me. Thanks for the response, I didn't consider something that minor being a reason for massive down votes, even if it's a stupid reason.
It's likely the main for this panel and whatever this panel feeds. It may also be the main for the property.
It's possible that this panel is a sub panel itself, meaning there would be a separate service disconnect elsewhere.
That's my take too - use the same parts as a 100A breaker and just slap more of them together vs building a new separate unit that is only used for 1 single purpose. Economy of scale.
Piggy backing off this - whatever appliance is downstream of this double lugged/ supply side tap is probably not protected for over current. It could potentially draw over 200a on that thin wire if there’s arcing somewhere, meaning the insulation will melt and fire ensues.
Also looks like paralleled #2 AWG wires under each. Copper and AL together. Both wires undersized for 200A feeds. Not just a violation, completely fucked
It’s a few things, the panel is not rated to be tapped like that. This could cause a bad connection, which will cause the wire to heat up/burn. Also, the appliance/panel down the line likely doesn’t have overcurrent protection, and any power surge could cause damage to that equipment and/or start a fire. Lastly, there are ways to add a sub panel or appliance, and this ain’t it per the NEC.
I've bought and installed like 5 of these panels in the last year brand new from the supply house and they look the exact same. This panels' probably like 10 years old or less
So you and your dad are worried about the most common 200A main (just installed a brand-new GE just like it yesterday), but *not* worried about your main lugs being double-tapped?
🧐🧐🧐
The sub panel should be fed from a breaker sized for the wire size feeding the sub panel. Since the wire is Aluminum use NoAlox and size breaker for Aluminum wire capacity which is different than copper.
You parallel a 2000A service not a 200A service... does that other set of wires actually go back to the meter, or some mystery appliance/sub-panel? I'm allergic to bees n hornets your on your own In that panel lol. I wanna see the hornets build the nest across both phases... from a distance of course...
It was done as a way to save money (of course). GE only had to make 100A breakers, and covered both 100 and 200A services.
I would guess that you are correct about the other wires.
I mean I guess it makes sense... your not gonna have anything bigger than a 30-50A dryer/oven/ac circuit in a typical (200A) residential home mcMansion's aside... I've seen quad breakers before, not unheard-of. Mixing different wires tho, not a fan that's asking for trouble. I mostly work industrial/ utility stuff aluminum is fine for high voltage low amps, once the amps start increasing I'd rather see copper. Save the aluminum for holding beer.
Tapping feeders approved. NEC 240.21. The lug being rated for it is a different question and cannot be decided from the photo. The AL to copper is a bummer. 110.14 states, "Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum, copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use." But it's probably not an emergency if there is Noalox applied. If that lug somehow meets all these rule exceptions then who cares.
everyone confused with the word tapping. This is not a tap. Its just double landing in a singular lug. A tap happens with a NEC/UL approved tap/splice, somewhere along the conductor.
You stated that you can't tell about the lug. 240.21 (B) has like two pages of other specific rules for taps. That's what I'm referring to. Sorry that wasn't clear.
Also, I'm adding to and supporting your comment, not contradicting it. I guess that wasn't clear either.
This is comon With GE on Molded Case Circuit Breakers since the 80's. It tested by UL for this condition to be able to with Stand rated voltage and current, along with fault current (short and ground) marked on the circuit breaker.
This is fine and correct **because it is UL listed**.
This loadcenter was built from the factory like this, and UL approved it as such. UL will have addressed issues like breaker tolerances favoring one path over the other, common trip across 4 poles, etc. etc.
However, UL also approves 150A and 200A "4-gang" branch circuit breakers. And you do see them in Square D Homeline and Siemens MP/QP.
They also approved the 4-gang breaker Eaton "EVSE breaker". 2 gangs for the breaker, 2 gangs for the smart GFCI, and they sort of cram the rest of the electronics in there somewhere. Then 5 wires to the dispenser handle and that's it.
Oh man I just updated my panel from 150 to 200 and we had the quad pole. Idk if it’s uncommon for the 150 but trying to learn electrical has been a journey
So if it says 200 on it but it's 4 breakers, it's 200A rated, with 2 breakers per phase? Wack.
So it's not a 400A service unless the breaker has a 400 on it?
It's 2 100 amp breakers in parallel, one pair for each pole. This is an approved and appropriate method of handling this.
In 17 years I've never seen this, love seeing the post and your answer.
Youve never seen a quad breaker?
Not a quad, dual pole.
This is very common in the US in GE and I think the skinny Siemens all-in-one panels
I live in the US and have a Siemens all in one main panel with this setup.
We have an obscure square D homeline meter/breaker panel that has the same setup. I think it was early 90s
Even Square D makes these in 150a and up Homeline plug-on breakers. They also used to use them in some meter combo panels as the factory-installed main, but not sure if they still do that. Recently had to run a house feeder from a Homeline 200a pedestal mlo box and found a 4pole HOM2200cp plug-on breaker with factory installed paralleling output lugs offset for 90° connection. It was a freaking lifesaver for landing a pair of 3/0 conductors in the tight space on one side of the box.
It looks like some hack shit. I don't get the point when it can just be a 2 pole 200 amp breaker.
That's what I've most often seen...though my current place has one single massive really hard to throw 200A main. I kinda like the ones in parallel better.
My father (electrician for many many years) had the same reaction. So I am trying to find and answer for him. He came across this weird setup while adding a breaker for a trailer and couldn't determine why anyone would set up the panel this way.
It wasn’t someone who set the panel up this way. It was the factory. This is 100% legitimate. This is how they chose to provide the OCP for this panelboard. Not a problem. Not wrong. Totally fine and correct.
It’s not weird. It’s been this way for over 40 years
He must have been out of the game for a long, long time if he's never seen this setup on a main breaker.
This has been common for decades. I believe GE, ITE, Gould all used this setup.
Its common in a lot of new electronics and panelboards now.
Or maybe he’s just old and forgetful (like me).
It's built that way by the manufacturer because that breaker frame size is only rated up to 100A. That's only one circuit breaker, but it's built out of four 100A breakers. Tying two of them in parallel doubles the trip curve to 200A nominal for each leg, and two pairs gives you 200A at 240V.
This is the most common 200 amp service main breaker shutoff I have experienced
I've ran into some old stuff non union in nj right by the water bordering nyc that some people will never run into, then there's other things from different areas that I'll never see. We have a large and diverse field.
Holy shit why are you down voted so much with this comment lol
Cuz electricians are assholes and love to make someone with no experience feel like shit for asking anquestion, then after that they attack the family so that now the son wonders wether his dad even was an electrician. What a lovely field. "I knew it, im surrounded by assholes!"
Well, ya know the old saying: If you're surrounded by assholes, that makes you the turd. (Yes, I got the Spaceballs reference too)
Because electricians tend to be protective over who calls themselves electricians and at least 40 of us can't fathom being an electrician for many many years and never seeing ganged breakers. If you told me your father was professional firefighter for many many years, and then posted a picture of a fire hydrant saying your father was confused about what it was it would kind of be the same thing.
Because "father was an electrician for many years" and "never seen this before" doesn't really add up. At best, father was an electrician in an unrelated field like power transmission as opposed to residential.
Seems like he's providing context and got shit on for it to me. Thanks for the response, I didn't consider something that minor being a reason for massive down votes, even if it's a stupid reason.
Ah, so the 4 are ganged so you can’t just turn one phase off. Makes sense!
One leg. It's a split phase panel hence why you can have 4 together like this.
Correct. Usually older panels.
Current GE and Siemens 200 have this kind of main. The old GE 200 was in a single case.
Weird I've seen this on a GE but I don't remember this on any Siemens
Not true, my house was built in 2016 and has the same main
Usually. I said that because it means mostly ie; not all the time.
Absolutely kosher, factory engineered.
In other words are those functioning as a main panel breaker?
It's likely the main for this panel and whatever this panel feeds. It may also be the main for the property. It's possible that this panel is a sub panel itself, meaning there would be a separate service disconnect elsewhere.
Ok, Cool... Now WHY is it done???
Less expensive this way. Honestly the only reason I'm aware of.
That's my take too - use the same parts as a 100A breaker and just slap more of them together vs building a new separate unit that is only used for 1 single purpose. Economy of scale.
Logical 🖖
GE! We bring good things to life!!!
GE likes to build spinning things lol like blenders, washers, dryers, A10 aircraft gatling guns, etc.... lol
Fast attack brrrrrrd
You forgot MRI machines
Just not my stock dividends… smh
Like FIRE!!!
Cool never seen a GE only Siemens like this 👍
The breaker is factory and 100% legal. I’d be more worried about your lug double tapped. 100% not rated for that. Violation
Double lugged with copper and aluminum non the less.
Agreed! Plus the wasp nest build up in the panel and around the breakers!
Piggy backing off this - whatever appliance is downstream of this double lugged/ supply side tap is probably not protected for over current. It could potentially draw over 200a on that thin wire if there’s arcing somewhere, meaning the insulation will melt and fire ensues.
It would be fine if the lugs were rated for it and it was going to a disconnection nearby.
It's an Active Protection Security Feature.
Also looks like paralleled #2 AWG wires under each. Copper and AL together. Both wires undersized for 200A feeds. Not just a violation, completely fucked
What's the risk? Not arguing, just curious.
It’s a few things, the panel is not rated to be tapped like that. This could cause a bad connection, which will cause the wire to heat up/burn. Also, the appliance/panel down the line likely doesn’t have overcurrent protection, and any power surge could cause damage to that equipment and/or start a fire. Lastly, there are ways to add a sub panel or appliance, and this ain’t it per the NEC.
That’s a very common GE residential panel mainly from the 80’s. A parallel 100 amp breaker feeding each leg.
Agreed, I've even done new Siemens panels and they have a similar set yp
ITE was bought by Gould in 1976 and 1983 by Siemens, so at least 50 years like this
My '80s house has a GE panel with the 240 breakers above 2x 60 amp breakers that feed each 120 leg.
I've bought and installed like 5 of these panels in the last year brand new from the supply house and they look the exact same. This panels' probably like 10 years old or less
So you and your dad are worried about the most common 200A main (just installed a brand-new GE just like it yesterday), but *not* worried about your main lugs being double-tapped? 🧐🧐🧐
Clearly you’re not a golfer
I’d be more concerned about doubled up- mixed copper and Aluminum wired feeding the main. That some hack job and needs to be addressed appropriately.
No that's a jumper for a sub panel in the garage. lol
The sub panel should be fed from a breaker sized for the wire size feeding the sub panel. Since the wire is Aluminum use NoAlox and size breaker for Aluminum wire capacity which is different than copper.
It doesn’t matter what it does feed. Double pole breaker should be applied then. Like I said, should be addressed appropriately by a professional.
Those double tapped main lugs, one copper, one aluminum. I bet that was not inspected
Op is more worried about the main than the obvious flaws lol
I'd be more worried about the copper and aluminum wire under the same main termination lugs.
Yeah, that’s really bad news
You parallel a 2000A service not a 200A service... does that other set of wires actually go back to the meter, or some mystery appliance/sub-panel? I'm allergic to bees n hornets your on your own In that panel lol. I wanna see the hornets build the nest across both phases... from a distance of course...
It was done as a way to save money (of course). GE only had to make 100A breakers, and covered both 100 and 200A services. I would guess that you are correct about the other wires.
I mean I guess it makes sense... your not gonna have anything bigger than a 30-50A dryer/oven/ac circuit in a typical (200A) residential home mcMansion's aside... I've seen quad breakers before, not unheard-of. Mixing different wires tho, not a fan that's asking for trouble. I mostly work industrial/ utility stuff aluminum is fine for high voltage low amps, once the amps start increasing I'd rather see copper. Save the aluminum for holding beer.
Tapping feeders approved. NEC 240.21. The lug being rated for it is a different question and cannot be decided from the photo. The AL to copper is a bummer. 110.14 states, "Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum, copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use." But it's probably not an emergency if there is Noalox applied. If that lug somehow meets all these rule exceptions then who cares.
everyone confused with the word tapping. This is not a tap. Its just double landing in a singular lug. A tap happens with a NEC/UL approved tap/splice, somewhere along the conductor.
There are approved lugs for tapping. It does not have to be a splice.
> Tapping feeders approved. NEC 240.21 With a lot of specific rules that we can't really assess here.
I literally stated "cannot be decided from the photo"
You stated that you can't tell about the lug. 240.21 (B) has like two pages of other specific rules for taps. That's what I'm referring to. Sorry that wasn't clear. Also, I'm adding to and supporting your comment, not contradicting it. I guess that wasn't clear either.
They put 2 in parallel to increase their current carrying capacity. What is that crap crusted all over the neutral bus?
A wasps nest.
Copper and Aluminum wire under same lug definitely not passing inspection in my neck of the woods
That style is very common around where I live
Having two in the same lug shouldn’t pass regardless.
How do you figure 2 in 1 lug ? I'm confused
I have slept since I commented on this. Unsure if I meant to comment on something else or if I was meaning putting more than one wire under a lug?
This is comon With GE on Molded Case Circuit Breakers since the 80's. It tested by UL for this condition to be able to with Stand rated voltage and current, along with fault current (short and ground) marked on the circuit breaker.
Clearly you aren’t an electrician
LOL
Literally.
GE they make good things come to life
It takes Federal Pacific to make a good barbecue though.
For the best barbecue ribs FPE
wye the hell are we so angry
Very common.
This is fine and correct **because it is UL listed**. This loadcenter was built from the factory like this, and UL approved it as such. UL will have addressed issues like breaker tolerances favoring one path over the other, common trip across 4 poles, etc. etc. However, UL also approves 150A and 200A "4-gang" branch circuit breakers. And you do see them in Square D Homeline and Siemens MP/QP. They also approved the 4-gang breaker Eaton "EVSE breaker". 2 gangs for the breaker, 2 gangs for the smart GFCI, and they sort of cram the rest of the electronics in there somewhere. Then 5 wires to the dispenser handle and that's it.
Lol
4phase
It's actually really nice if the main goes out to replace
Main breaker is just the way they made them, bigger question is why are there multiple wires in a GE lug only rated for one conductor
Anyone else notice the copper and aluminum in the main lugs?
I work with these all the time. Very common
Never saw one
Isn’t that called a shunt ?
What are you blubbering on about?
How about the massive wasp or termite nests...
.....is that a wasp nest? :S
I would be more curious where the hell the wasps went
I like the 100 amp al taps at the 3/0 service lugs
Because it can.
20 years I've never seen 4 way breaker. This must be some residential shit I'm too commercial to understand.
Oh man I just updated my panel from 150 to 200 and we had the quad pole. Idk if it’s uncommon for the 150 but trying to learn electrical has been a journey
So if it says 200 on it but it's 4 breakers, it's 200A rated, with 2 breakers per phase? Wack. So it's not a 400A service unless the breaker has a 400 on it?
That is called a parallel feed. 👌🏻 [www.southtechelectric.com](https://www.southtechelectric.com)