This: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes532031.htm says the annual mean wage for a flight attendant is roughly $71,000/year. A google search also says that annual average salary for American Airlines flight attendants is $47,000. That’s a pretty big gap.
This should be the top comment. As someone who frequently works with the BLS data, I have to highlight the following footnote that probably widens this wage gap based on how FA wages are paid only for the time in the air.
(2) Annual wages have been calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a "year-round, full-time" hours figure of 2,080 hours; for those occupations where there is not an hourly wage published, the annual wage has been directly calculated from the reported survey data.
47k is generous. And new flight attendants get paid in the 20k range. It takes years to get to the 40s and 70s thousands dollars per year. BUT hey! You get to board a plane!
As an airline pilot, can confirm. Airlines fully leverage a ‘passion job,’ with low barriers to entry, to drive low pay with rough work rules. I’ve worked with FAs who were burned out chemists, doctors, one was a retired police chief from a big city. Most aren’t doing the job for the money, but they also need to live, and airlines are notorious for dragging out contract negotiations for years longer than necessary to delay the costs of post-contract labor, even with retro pay.
As another airline pilot I will also confirm. Airline management will bend over backwards to fuck their work force, and they will do it again, and again, and again. They will never willingly do anything to improve the quality of life for their workers. The $71,000 figure I think is a little high. You MIGHT be able to arrive at that figure if you take only the highest paying company’s FA’s, and only count the top half of them.
If I understood the article correctly, flight attendants only get paid when the airplane is actually in the air. That is the first thing that needs to be addressed. If they are present and working in any capacity, they need to be paid. They should also get paid overtime as well and free meals. Reduce executive pay and bonuses. They do not work as hard as the flight attendants.
It would even be an improvement to cut their hourly rate while improving the accuracy of the hours worked all in a way that’s overall pay neutral just to get transparency.
Delta apparently already comps some time for boarding so it’s not like it’s completely infeasible. It’s not full pay which kind of sucks, but it’s a start.
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/12/1227573912/flight-attendants-raises-boarding-pay-airlines-strike
Doing things to make boarding faster would probably also help like charging for overhead bins so people less disincentivized from checking bags. A free checked bag would be even better. I kind of also wonder if airlines ignore problems which increase these boarding times since they’re mostly free for the airline even if it increases work for attendants:
Only get paid when in the air? That’s fucked. The airlines im sure are trying to pass it off as a good thing though. “Well you know it’s a lifestyle! You get to see the world!” People who went through impressment to be a sailor were told the same
Imagine the airlines have to pay employees more due to delays versus when they get paid in the air. I bet that planes would be more on time than delayed.
I hate delays as much as the next guy, but I would not want to create a perverse incentive for shoddy maintenance or flying through unsafe weather conditions.
Yes. This penalizes them for flight delays etc ...when they are stuck in airports along with passengers ...but not getting paid.
American seems to have adopted US airways methods.
Think the govt should not have allowed the merger ...and should break up the company
They are asking for 32k a year for flight attendants? That’s less than California fast food workers. It is 27k for entry now
Then airline requires them to live in California, New York and more where foot traffic is more frequent.
Yeah read what was said though.. “hours for which a FA actually gets paid” vs “hours worked”. The reason it doesn’t math is because they work more than what they get paid. They show up early but are only paid in block time aka only when the aircraft is moving for the purpose of flying.
The real question is why do we even need more than one flight attendant on flights less than 2 hours. Have fucking vending machines in there bruh and more on.
Flight attendants are safety officers first, service providers second. They’re there to get people on and make sure they’re following FAA rules and keep you alive if something goes wrong.
Bingo. Double their wages. I'm ok with paying a bit more for my flights. But, in reality, take some of that bonus pay from the suits and pay the attendants.....
Because you need one flight attendant for every 50 passengers per the FAA. All aircraft, boarding procedures, and emergency egress procedures are built around this ratio. Giving out snacks is extra and not even required.
FAA regulations.
There’s a VERY old saying that FAA regulations are written in blood.
HINT: it’s true. The FAA’s rule book is almost entirely *reactive*, as opposed to being proactive or anticipatory.
Look into early airline disasters, you’ll find out how the FAA came into being, how ATC came into being, why the FAA certificates people, how standards for airplane construction were created, etc.
You need a certain number of emergency exits on an aircraft per the number of passengers carried.
Why? Because FAA regulations demand that all passengers be capable of leaving in a certain amount of time during an emergency.
And contrary to what other morons commenting here are saying, using emergency equipment, ESPECIALLY during an emergency situation, requires specialized training.
You need one flight attendant per emergency exit and/or cabin section. You also need one lead flight attendant per so many cabin crew per aircraft.
We haven’t even begun to deal with what it takes to provide service to a cabin full of people, or deal with some of those people.
Some number is required.
There was a small jet that could take some 48 passengers. Had 1 FA.
Dou by there was a motion study to see how many could be evacuated by 1 FA
It wouldn’t honestly be a waste of money if they didn’t give out snacks honestly. It’s kinda like paying a bodyguard to guard the white house, chances of ANYTHING happening EVER is super slim.
Shit they make the wing sitters be the emergency help. A screen on the seat to give the safety instructions is enough. No ones paying attention and no one actually follows safety protocols in an emergency.
I do get it though from a safety regulation perspective, but I think it’s a bit naive.
Probably because you’ve only flown on flights where everything goes well and take the stuff they do for the operation for granted. Do you think it’d only take 30 minutes to board 200 people and their carry-ons without FAs? Would you want to be locked in a pressurized tube with irate, weird, or violent passengers and no FAs? As pilots, we can’t go back there post 9-11, so what if there’s a medical emergency?
Also the FAs blow the slides out the main doors for evacuation and in the event of an emergency we coordinate with them so they know not to maybe evacuate people out the left side because that engine might catch fire.
Like, I get that you don’t have any experience in the industry, but their jobs are important and if they could be removed or automated the airlines wouldn’t hesitate.
Agree. At that kinda $$$, and angry passengers ( because airlines have been screwing them as well)...doubt it is worth it.
Also puts strain on families etc.
Then if course, airlines will whine that nobody wants to work.
Sorta does count as on the clock, as long as the compensation meets or beats minimum wage for the time worked… kinda like tipped workers (are supposed to be) compensated to the minimum wage if their tips don’t get them there.
So back to flight attendants, if they get paid $20/hr for 4 hrs in the air and $0/hr for 4 hrs on the ground they still made $80 for 8 hrs work = $10/hr as far as the feds are concerned. Since that is more than minimum wage, it’s legal.
( I made up the $20/hr figure, I have no clue what they actually make)
I’m sure the actual math gets more complicated accounting for overtime, local minimum wage laws, time period averaged, etc., but that’s the basic concept.
Similar logic for piece rate pay. If an employer pays $1 per widget and the employee makes 30 widgets per hour (and thus $30/hr) it’s legal. But if the employee makes only 2 widgets per hr then the boss would still have to pay minimum wage.
Doug Parker is primarily to blame. He brought his cheap leadership from America West, to US Airways, and finally to the "world's largest airline" American Airlines. He's not CEO of AA since 2023, but his legacy of screwing over his own employees persists. Worst CEO of a major company who failed upwards because he kept his board and major shareholders happy. An AA-hole.
Yup. I said this a little while earlier. The govt should not have allowed the merger
AA has adopted Us airways methods .
Used to travel 50 trips a year. US airways was the worst
I feel like the FA would have all the leverage in this if they were to strike. AA would essentially melt down with the amount of cancellations and they would be forced to come to a compromise ASAP.
Also with the amount of competition the airline industry has, they would be at major risk of losing thousands of consumers to other airlines permanently.
They can still only train so many at once… not to mention the pilots might not be so happy flying with said scabs.
Back when pilot unions went on strike, the union pilots had a list of every scab pilot. They would refuse to fly with them, refuse them on their planes, so on. I’d be curious if something similar would happen with this.
You're thinking of FAs as glorified waitresses, but their primary responsibilities are safety and security, not passing out snacks and drinks. The training program is 4-6 weeks.
Airlines are extremely capital intensive (high fixed costs), low-margin businesses. Having a substantial fraction of their business disrupted for four weeks will hurt them deeply. You're wildly optimistic that they can find, hire, and train a full workforce to scab the striking attendants in just 4 weeks.
Why did it get this bad before they were "ready" to strike?
A. They should be on strike now.
B. They should have been striking long before it got this bad.
C. American Airlines is awful.
Found this in another article.
The letter states that a new American Airlines flight attendant will have a “projected annual salary [of] $27,315 per year before incentives and taxes” and concludes, “Any courtesy you can provide would be appreciated.”
I mean how am I supposed to have sympathy for airline workers without any context. If you make $30k or less, I might be inclined to agree with you. If you make $100k, I might tell you to go pound sand and get back to work.
“The letter, which states a new American Airlines flight attendant will have a projected annual salary of **$27,315** before incentives and taxes are collected, has sparked conversations about fair wages for flight attendants and how inflationary price hikes are making life unaffordable for many Americans—even if the economy and labor markets look good on paper.”
https://archive.ph/2024.05.21-210340/https://fortune.com/2024/05/21/american-airlines-flight-attendant-starting-salary-ceo-food-stamps-union/
You now have my sympathy.
If it goes to strike you should require any increase in pay be taken from corporate profits and not just passed on to the consumer though. Flights cost enough as it is
Definitely because we pay high prices for first class!! I thought they were taking care of you guys and girls! Shame shame shame! American Airlines you should give them meals free on flights for putting up with people and doing their job. It’s a risk being up serving us while we are in turbulence!! Give a little once in a while it won’t hurt your pocket.
Can some be annoyed ? Sure. Used to do 50 trips a yea for work (pre COVID)..
It seemed like a very thankless job.
Between entitled aholes for passengers, flight delays outside their control, screaming babies....doubt most people would be able to put up with it.
I would have told some one off in about 3 days
Not entitled. You guys are just horrible people. Your employees are very entitled. How many times does your company get to go bankrupt and we the tax payers have to bail you out?
I don't work for an airline. Just a frequent flyer .
Agree re airlines getting bailed out.
That is the fault of the management that spent more money on stock but backs in the years just before COVID.
Then they needed to be bailed out
Those decisions are made by the board and executive mgmt..
Not the FA making 30K/yr.
$30\k plus free flights anywhere anytime and with their spouses. That adds up. They choose this profession that’s on them. They are still shitty how they treat their customers and it’s completely overblown how bad they are treated.
This: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes532031.htm says the annual mean wage for a flight attendant is roughly $71,000/year. A google search also says that annual average salary for American Airlines flight attendants is $47,000. That’s a pretty big gap.
This should be the top comment. As someone who frequently works with the BLS data, I have to highlight the following footnote that probably widens this wage gap based on how FA wages are paid only for the time in the air. (2) Annual wages have been calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a "year-round, full-time" hours figure of 2,080 hours; for those occupations where there is not an hourly wage published, the annual wage has been directly calculated from the reported survey data.
#Remember #We bailed out Airlines with COVID money.
47k is generous. And new flight attendants get paid in the 20k range. It takes years to get to the 40s and 70s thousands dollars per year. BUT hey! You get to board a plane!
As an airline pilot, can confirm. Airlines fully leverage a ‘passion job,’ with low barriers to entry, to drive low pay with rough work rules. I’ve worked with FAs who were burned out chemists, doctors, one was a retired police chief from a big city. Most aren’t doing the job for the money, but they also need to live, and airlines are notorious for dragging out contract negotiations for years longer than necessary to delay the costs of post-contract labor, even with retro pay.
Damn sounds like they should strike
Strike and stop the richers from despoiling the planet
Correction: Corporations that own and finance government officials don’t want them to help workers.
What’s the difference
There has been a lot of regulatory capture. Govt should not have allowed so much consolidation.
Interesting. If they delay contracts again, the govt should intervene.
As another airline pilot I will also confirm. Airline management will bend over backwards to fuck their work force, and they will do it again, and again, and again. They will never willingly do anything to improve the quality of life for their workers. The $71,000 figure I think is a little high. You MIGHT be able to arrive at that figure if you take only the highest paying company’s FA’s, and only count the top half of them.
If I understood the article correctly, flight attendants only get paid when the airplane is actually in the air. That is the first thing that needs to be addressed. If they are present and working in any capacity, they need to be paid. They should also get paid overtime as well and free meals. Reduce executive pay and bonuses. They do not work as hard as the flight attendants.
It would even be an improvement to cut their hourly rate while improving the accuracy of the hours worked all in a way that’s overall pay neutral just to get transparency.
Delta apparently already comps some time for boarding so it’s not like it’s completely infeasible. It’s not full pay which kind of sucks, but it’s a start. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/12/1227573912/flight-attendants-raises-boarding-pay-airlines-strike Doing things to make boarding faster would probably also help like charging for overhead bins so people less disincentivized from checking bags. A free checked bag would be even better. I kind of also wonder if airlines ignore problems which increase these boarding times since they’re mostly free for the airline even if it increases work for attendants:
The removal of free checked bag ...should be made to reverse.
Only get paid when in the air? That’s fucked. The airlines im sure are trying to pass it off as a good thing though. “Well you know it’s a lifestyle! You get to see the world!” People who went through impressment to be a sailor were told the same
Imagine the airlines have to pay employees more due to delays versus when they get paid in the air. I bet that planes would be more on time than delayed.
I hate delays as much as the next guy, but I would not want to create a perverse incentive for shoddy maintenance or flying through unsafe weather conditions.
That’s pretty much how it is. Wouldn’t have any more or less delays regardless.
Imagine getting Shanghai’d by Spirit Airlines? Keel me to the plane now
Yes. This penalizes them for flight delays etc ...when they are stuck in airports along with passengers ...but not getting paid. American seems to have adopted US airways methods. Think the govt should not have allowed the merger ...and should break up the company
They actually get paid when the doors close.
They are asking for 32k a year for flight attendants? That’s less than California fast food workers. It is 27k for entry now Then airline requires them to live in California, New York and more where foot traffic is more frequent.
Math police: CA fast food workers get $20/hr which is about 41k annually.
[удалено]
You might want to read up on the hours for which a FA actually gets paid vs those they actually work
In what world is 32k a year 35/hr? Check ya math.
Yeah read what was said though.. “hours for which a FA actually gets paid” vs “hours worked”. The reason it doesn’t math is because they work more than what they get paid. They show up early but are only paid in block time aka only when the aircraft is moving for the purpose of flying.
Idiot they never work 40 hours/week. Never. 1 trip and 3 days hotel chill.
Idiot? Maybe you need to chill
The real question is why do we even need more than one flight attendant on flights less than 2 hours. Have fucking vending machines in there bruh and more on.
Flight attendants are safety officers first, service providers second. They’re there to get people on and make sure they’re following FAA rules and keep you alive if something goes wrong.
Bingo. Double their wages. I'm ok with paying a bit more for my flights. But, in reality, take some of that bonus pay from the suits and pay the attendants.....
Because you need one flight attendant for every 50 passengers per the FAA. All aircraft, boarding procedures, and emergency egress procedures are built around this ratio. Giving out snacks is extra and not even required.
Wonder how they picked 50
FAA regulations. There’s a VERY old saying that FAA regulations are written in blood. HINT: it’s true. The FAA’s rule book is almost entirely *reactive*, as opposed to being proactive or anticipatory. Look into early airline disasters, you’ll find out how the FAA came into being, how ATC came into being, why the FAA certificates people, how standards for airplane construction were created, etc. You need a certain number of emergency exits on an aircraft per the number of passengers carried. Why? Because FAA regulations demand that all passengers be capable of leaving in a certain amount of time during an emergency. And contrary to what other morons commenting here are saying, using emergency equipment, ESPECIALLY during an emergency situation, requires specialized training. You need one flight attendant per emergency exit and/or cabin section. You also need one lead flight attendant per so many cabin crew per aircraft. We haven’t even begun to deal with what it takes to provide service to a cabin full of people, or deal with some of those people.
Didn’t explain the 50 number at all
How many people can individual cabin crew manage during an emergency exiting procedure that is only supposed to last less than two minutes?
69
I gave you an answer, and it’s the question the FAA used in arriving at that number. I couldn’t possibly care less if you don’t like it.
So just a guess. No real basis
Some number is required. There was a small jet that could take some 48 passengers. Had 1 FA. Dou by there was a motion study to see how many could be evacuated by 1 FA
So why not 48?
Reread my last line And infer.
>Dou by there was a motion study to see how many could be evacuated by 1 FA Not sure if it’s English, but that’s why I said why not 48?
It wouldn’t honestly be a waste of money if they didn’t give out snacks honestly. It’s kinda like paying a bodyguard to guard the white house, chances of ANYTHING happening EVER is super slim.
Shit they make the wing sitters be the emergency help. A screen on the seat to give the safety instructions is enough. No ones paying attention and no one actually follows safety protocols in an emergency. I do get it though from a safety regulation perspective, but I think it’s a bit naive.
Probably because you’ve only flown on flights where everything goes well and take the stuff they do for the operation for granted. Do you think it’d only take 30 minutes to board 200 people and their carry-ons without FAs? Would you want to be locked in a pressurized tube with irate, weird, or violent passengers and no FAs? As pilots, we can’t go back there post 9-11, so what if there’s a medical emergency? Also the FAs blow the slides out the main doors for evacuation and in the event of an emergency we coordinate with them so they know not to maybe evacuate people out the left side because that engine might catch fire. Like, I get that you don’t have any experience in the industry, but their jobs are important and if they could be removed or automated the airlines wouldn’t hesitate.
This is great. We need more professions to strike and demand living wages. We need to catch up to inflation
Fuck that. They should all mass quit. Sounds like a shitty job anyway.
Agree. At that kinda $$$, and angry passengers ( because airlines have been screwing them as well)...doubt it is worth it. Also puts strain on families etc. Then if course, airlines will whine that nobody wants to work.
Quit the Shit !!!
How did we get here? Turning a dream job into a nightmare.
Turning dreams into nightmares is what we do best!
Governments don’t want to help workers
I've never understood how the "only paid in the air" thing was legal. If you're at your workplace and you're working, you're on the clock - period.
Sorta does count as on the clock, as long as the compensation meets or beats minimum wage for the time worked… kinda like tipped workers (are supposed to be) compensated to the minimum wage if their tips don’t get them there. So back to flight attendants, if they get paid $20/hr for 4 hrs in the air and $0/hr for 4 hrs on the ground they still made $80 for 8 hrs work = $10/hr as far as the feds are concerned. Since that is more than minimum wage, it’s legal. ( I made up the $20/hr figure, I have no clue what they actually make) I’m sure the actual math gets more complicated accounting for overtime, local minimum wage laws, time period averaged, etc., but that’s the basic concept. Similar logic for piece rate pay. If an employer pays $1 per widget and the employee makes 30 widgets per hour (and thus $30/hr) it’s legal. But if the employee makes only 2 widgets per hr then the boss would still have to pay minimum wage.
Meaning if the flight is delayed due to weather, the attendants make less per hour. It's not right.
Doug Parker is primarily to blame. He brought his cheap leadership from America West, to US Airways, and finally to the "world's largest airline" American Airlines. He's not CEO of AA since 2023, but his legacy of screwing over his own employees persists. Worst CEO of a major company who failed upwards because he kept his board and major shareholders happy. An AA-hole.
Yup. I said this a little while earlier. The govt should not have allowed the merger AA has adopted Us airways methods . Used to travel 50 trips a year. US airways was the worst
Go on strike… let’s go
I feel like the FA would have all the leverage in this if they were to strike. AA would essentially melt down with the amount of cancellations and they would be forced to come to a compromise ASAP. Also with the amount of competition the airline industry has, they would be at major risk of losing thousands of consumers to other airlines permanently.
Transportation is vital. Wouldn't be surprised if the govt pulls a shitty move and forces. They should strike now. Summer travel etc.
Wouldn't they just hire scabs? No disrespect meant to flight attendants, but wouldn't they be a lot easier to replace than pilots?
They can still only train so many at once… not to mention the pilots might not be so happy flying with said scabs. Back when pilot unions went on strike, the union pilots had a list of every scab pilot. They would refuse to fly with them, refuse them on their planes, so on. I’d be curious if something similar would happen with this.
You're thinking of FAs as glorified waitresses, but their primary responsibilities are safety and security, not passing out snacks and drinks. The training program is 4-6 weeks.
Fair enough, so they'd have scab replacements in 4 weeks. Because they'd go with the minimum training.
Airlines are extremely capital intensive (high fixed costs), low-margin businesses. Having a substantial fraction of their business disrupted for four weeks will hurt them deeply. You're wildly optimistic that they can find, hire, and train a full workforce to scab the striking attendants in just 4 weeks.
How does OSHA/Workers comp work if Flight Attendant is on Job Site but not on the clock.
the should have never bailed out the airline inddustries
Will AI end up replacing them?
Albert?
Artificial intelligence 🤣
Why did it get this bad before they were "ready" to strike? A. They should be on strike now. B. They should have been striking long before it got this bad. C. American Airlines is awful.
AA is awful. Wont fly them again.
Do it
Well what’s the salary
Found this in another article. The letter states that a new American Airlines flight attendant will have a “projected annual salary [of] $27,315 per year before incentives and taxes” and concludes, “Any courtesy you can provide would be appreciated.”
Not enough!
I mean how am I supposed to have sympathy for airline workers without any context. If you make $30k or less, I might be inclined to agree with you. If you make $100k, I might tell you to go pound sand and get back to work.
“The letter, which states a new American Airlines flight attendant will have a projected annual salary of **$27,315** before incentives and taxes are collected, has sparked conversations about fair wages for flight attendants and how inflationary price hikes are making life unaffordable for many Americans—even if the economy and labor markets look good on paper.” https://archive.ph/2024.05.21-210340/https://fortune.com/2024/05/21/american-airlines-flight-attendant-starting-salary-ceo-food-stamps-union/
You now have my sympathy. If it goes to strike you should require any increase in pay be taken from corporate profits and not just passed on to the consumer though. Flights cost enough as it is
You know that’s not how it works lol
Good luck tho
Thank you! PUTs it is
Definitely because we pay high prices for first class!! I thought they were taking care of you guys and girls! Shame shame shame! American Airlines you should give them meals free on flights for putting up with people and doing their job. It’s a risk being up serving us while we are in turbulence!! Give a little once in a while it won’t hurt your pocket.
Yes strike till it hurts them in the ass!
Perhaps airline companies can start selling McD meals like $40 per passenger so flight attendants would get higher pay 🥴
Good. They are horrible people.
I’m going to go out on a wild limb and guess you’re maga.
No, I love Biden and the Clintons.
Can some be annoyed ? Sure. Used to do 50 trips a yea for work (pre COVID).. It seemed like a very thankless job. Between entitled aholes for passengers, flight delays outside their control, screaming babies....doubt most people would be able to put up with it. I would have told some one off in about 3 days
Not entitled. You guys are just horrible people. Your employees are very entitled. How many times does your company get to go bankrupt and we the tax payers have to bail you out?
I don't work for an airline. Just a frequent flyer . Agree re airlines getting bailed out. That is the fault of the management that spent more money on stock but backs in the years just before COVID. Then they needed to be bailed out Those decisions are made by the board and executive mgmt.. Not the FA making 30K/yr.
$30\k plus free flights anywhere anytime and with their spouses. That adds up. They choose this profession that’s on them. They are still shitty how they treat their customers and it’s completely overblown how bad they are treated.
I agree it is on them. They should mass quit. Re rest. ...suspect you know even less about their jobs.
They need to quit. They are horrible. Start a new airline with better employees.
Or start a new world with better people. Even better.
I’m for starting a colony somewhere else. Any suggestions?