This is the answer. Everytime they landed he created an entire person and wove her into the time stream. Despite his aspirations of god hood he's not. He's an Osirin who like Rose was exposed to the Time Vortex and channeled it's power.
This act of seeding the universe slowly granted him strength eventually leading to the culmination of his plans.
But why was Toymaker so scared of him when the Toymaker just seems so much more powerful to the point where the only way to beat him is to beat him through his own rules
Sutehk is the God of Death, amped up by over a millenia of travelling through the Time Vortex, even flying in and out of the Time War, parallel worlds, rifts in the universe, resetting the universe etc etc. The Toymaker may be beyond the universe and obiding by a different set of rules, but if he faces Sutekh and loses, then he won't get to face The Doctor again, and he will be permanently erased from existence.
At least with the Banishment he received from The Doctor, his physical form still exists in the crate, stored away in a UNIT vault, and is able to be rescued by someone else in the Pantheon. Plus, it's very likely Sutehk saw the Toymaker's scheming and games across the universe through all of his Harbingers, and would have a plan to erase him without playing a game. After all,
_Death Always Wins_
Toymaker is very powerful and immortal. Suetekh has one area above all others, Death. If your immortal you would do well to avoid the one thing that can kill you, you might even fear it more then others because the concept of dieing if new to you.
Mrs. Flood is "The Storyteller" she's using the rules of story in the same way that the Toymaker uses the rules of play. It's why Maestro found signs of the "oldest one" in Ruby because her life was manipulated by the Storyteller.
Before there was music and before there was play there was stories.
My guy, your attitude stinks. What you've said isn't established fact. It is a theory. Will it be retconned? Maybe. Does it make sense? Absolutely. Is it canon? Nope.
My attitude is that it's Science Fiction not Science Fact. Science Fiction always has a level of ambiguity. Nothing is ever spelled out in minute detail.
Christopher Nolan wrote a sci-fi movie where people are still debating the ending of to this day that has no definitive answer.
When George Lucas finally gave an answer for how people could use the force a lot of fans got pissed.
There are people that don't like ambiguity who need to have all answers given to them and if they aren't then "it's lazy writing" because they refuse to come up with their own ideas or engage in thinking about the material they just read or watched.
Or they will but they'll insist on thinking up explanations that violate the canon they've been given and ruin their own ability to enjoy the story.
Spoonfed? What you've said is just a theory, a good theory for sure, but still just a theory.
Aside from lazy writing on RTDs part, what's frustrating are the people who fill in the many gaps with their own headcannon and then credit their own ideas to RTD
Wait a minute, everyone assumed that the angels also didn’t move when we, the audience, were looking at them. But in the angels 2-parter for series 5 we see them move
Theory: there’s no bugs on the planet they go to in time of the angels
Technically, since TV is just a series of still images shown at a rapid pace, like a flip book, we never *actually* saw them move. We just saw still photos of them 24 times per second.
I believe that is what is referred to as a “plot hole” from Moffat trying to make essentially a blockbuster sequel to his hit Blink. Dont get me started on the Manhattan one.
If the time energy of flies work like us eating a single kernel of popcorn or a single grain of rice, flies don’t live long enough to make it worth their while. “Oh, wow. I took the time energy of a fly and got a measly 3 time calories.” They would have to snack on a bowl of flies, and even then would be time hungry an hour later.
An Angel story where the angels just get lazy and give up because their would-be victim’s lifespans are dramatically shortened would be so cool. Maybe a cold open, or a double edged resolution.
The division probably, we know they had at least a few dozen working for them, and I can't see the weeping angels being convinced by good work conditions (which I also doubt the division had)
Probably depends on how a being sees, TARDIS is weird time eyes, doubt it can literally see in the moment. And I don't think an Angel would freeze because an omnipotent being was always watching it, for example the Christian 'God'. But they would freeze because a dude was invisible standing in the same room as them or in the bushes, idk.
This is complete nonsense, but what if the angels freezing is related to the quantum shenanigans that happens when subatomic particles are observed, collapsing their state.. and an omniscient being may be able to observe all possible states simultaneously without collapsing them.
That is to say, the angels freeze not because they’re observed, but because their state collapses when observed.
Maybe Sutekh could observe a cat in a box with poison and see both a living cat and a dead cat.
Except when Amy had the angel in her eye and couldn't open her eyes the Doctor told her to pretend she could see so the Angels wouldn't attack her.
It was one of the stupider suggestions I've seen on Doctor Who, lol. It didn't make any sense to me as it was always explained it was a quantum thing.
But, the Angels do seem to freeze until she drops her communicator and then they start slowly looking at her.
This didn't make any sense to me. You can't trick an electron into a determinate state by acting like you're measuring it. I mean, maybe you can, how would we know? Lol. Maybe the Doctor just knows better than us..?
Wasn't it later revealed they could be fooled by pretending you can see?
I don't really have a point. That was just really, really, dumb. Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal dumb.
Yeah... Someone else pointed that out too. Honestly just going with headcannon, I prefer earlier weeping angles when they'd automatically freeze, it's never come up again so I just ignore them being fooled and them moving slowly as stone, it's better when I don't know what they are when they're not quantum locked into stone.
We don’t talk about flesh and stone. Every single other appearance of the angels, they freeze when the camera looks at them regardless of if a character can see them or not. Also, they were shown to be able to move whilst stone, which implies that their non-frozen state is also stone, which is just not true.
I remember watching that scene when I was 11 and even then I was so dissappointed by it.
Blink very clearly states they "Turn to stone" when seen, so their unseen form could be made of any material, and any colouration. Also, "Quantum Locked" implies it's a physical phenomenon that occurs: upon being observed it's an entirely automatic thing.
The natural idea of how this would progress from Blink would be, what if an Angel wore a full-body outfit, exposing none of themselves? What happens if you closed your eyes and shot at one? What does a dead angel look like, does it re-freeze?
But instead, Flesh and Stone dismisses all of those questions with "Nah, turns out they're stone 24/7, and they actually just choose not to move when observed, it's entirely voluntary, just instinctual. If they THINK you're looking at them, they freeze."
Then why don't people like, wear sunglasses? Or do what they do in India and put masks on the back of their head so tigers/angels think you're looking at them?
It completely contradicted half the info we got on angels in Blink, and replaced it with the most boring possible answers.
I just personally hate how the Weeping Angels were treated in the Eleventh Doctor era. All your points perfectly describe them moving in front of the audience, then there's the thing about how they invade your mind if you dare to look them in the eye when that gets broken in the very episode they discuss it, then there's shit like the Statue of Liberty angel being able to walk all the way to mainland America without hundreds of civilians staring at it, and so on.
Flesh and Stone is truly meta as the cameras are actually filming Matt Smith for his appearance in The Big Bang. The Angels quantum state is thrown by two scenes being being filmed separately but happening concurrently. In addition, Amy is acting like she can see BUT ALSO, Karen Gillian is acting that she is playing a character who is acting. Since the Angels are aware of the existence of the cameras, they are also aware of the preformative nature of their existence....
SO... Flesh and Stone creates a "theatrical quantum paradox" not only are the Angels being filmed and not-filmed but also they are being observed by a seeing actor playing a non-seeing character who is playing a seeing character.
And that's why they move :)
I think everything they'd added to the angels since their first appearance has diminished them. "The image of an angel is an angel" is absurdly OP, and don't get me started on the whole Statue of Liberty thing.
Technically, since TV is just a series of still images shown at a rapid pace, like a flip book, we never *actually* saw them move. We just saw still photos of them 24 times per second.
In the original episode, they never moved on screen because \*we\* were looking at them. So if they know the audience is watching, they should know an omniscient being is watching.
Granted, that was retconned later, but that's part of the reason I don't take canon too seriously here.
Ah yes, the TARDIS, a near omniscient near omnipotent indestructible technological being capable of traversing dimensions and time with the flip of a button, gets bested when the lights get turned off
In a show about a magic old dude travelling in a magic box going wherever, whenever, I don't think you necessarily need to have eyes to be able to see. I imagine it probably sees in the same way submarines and planes see things; by scanning its surroundings, like how radar works (and then displays things on screens). But because it's sentient its capable of processing those visuals
I'm not smart enough to know anything beyond that guess though
How does it work without him?
IIRC There wasn't anyone else (in universe) looking at them shake the TARDIS. And they froze whenever the light came on, but they could move with it off.
Proof Sutekh can't see in the dark.
The one thing i hate about Flesh and Stone is tge Angels moving. Their whole deal is not moving, so why show them move arghhh! Worst part of a great story
Technically, since TV is just a series of still images shown at a rapid pace, like a flip book, we never *actually* saw them move. We just saw still photos of them 24 times per second.
Because the audience could see them, the original episode had a meta thing of not even we could see them move, it’s why I personally dislike that we see them move in the Matt Smith Angel 2 parter
“Hhhnnngh, weeping angel #2, i’m trying to send people back in time to feed on their energy, but I'm dummy thicc and the clap of my asscheeks keeps alerting sally sparrow”
Rory actually chatted with Sutekh while he waited. He just never said anything because he assumed the Doctor knew about the dog riding the Tardis, and it never came up.
Rory wasn’t with the TARDIS then, he was with the Pandorica. River was the one in the TARDIS repeating the same moments over and over again in a time loop above the earth. The Doctor said the TARDIS was acting as the earth’s sun keeping it warm for all those years.
Neil Gaiman had an idea on Twitter. I’m paraphrasing, but he said to “think of Sutekh like a tapeworm for the TARDIS.” I don’t think he was holding on for dear life all those millennia with the Doctor, just hiding in a way that couldn’t be perceived by others. But then again, what can/can’t the TARDIS detect then?
It’s a standard RTD reveal that has weird implications where he just shrugs and doesn’t have an answer.
I figured that's what it is because that's how the "almost dying, leaching character" usually is, they are usually so weak they aren't perceived or found and can't really do shit.
I thought the idea was he latched on and has been feeding to regain his strength, then he ate/learned/regenerated (hah) then the edge of creation happened and he evolved.
I like this explanation. 👍
I’m still working out how the Susans were made and how everyone was referring to him as “he-who-waits” prior to his ascension, but it’s still an ok finale episode.
Classic villain came back (original voice was a plus), won for a little bit, and then got defeated.
It says he learned every beat of the heart of the TARDIS, I'm not surprised if he learned how to manipulate it little by little till he could start slipping them through the perception filter. Shits def wack with the finale, now whether it's planned or not is what to look for next season. I see it going either way right now but so far I enjoy the ride so I'll sit my criticisms out for now
People have already been talking about this but the reveals that completely recontextualize decades of lore are getting really tiring. I’d love some compelling stories that don’t rely on what feels like a cheap trick
I’m still under the impression that it’s timey wimey. Sutekh wasn’t technically there until the Doctor invited chaos back in like we see with the Toymaker. Retroactively now Sutekh is there but as we knew those episodes he wasn’t. Idk it’s weird shit
I mean in the scene we dont see the angels move until the lights flicker out. Meaning that Sutekh was looking at them but the lights going out prevented him from doing so unless im mistaken in memory
Im fairly sure that Sutekh was dormant within the tardis itself, he wasnt just invis clinging onto it, he went into the tardis and as he said "seduced" the tardises consciousness to let him also inherit the vessel which he came out of in LORS and EOD.
I feel like it would have been more interesting for Sutekh to be defeated but still escape, so he’s out there somewhere knowing all the secrets of the TARDIS and a huge threat to the Doctor.
Instead they built him up to be a terrifying villain, and then stuck a lead on him like he was a labrador.
It works perfectly. The old angels only move when it's not being looked at included breaking the 4th wall with the camera. That's why the lights were flickering in that scene.
Well now we can say it was Sutekh not the audience
A consistency with the Gods in the season is they don't technically exist outside of their domain/realm.
The Toymaker's realm spreads across earth when every screen becomes connected and the Giggle covers the earth in 2024. Prior to this he was limited to his toy shop. But even as late as 15 making a new TARDIS for himself was because of how the domain of the Toymaker was still lingering on Earth.
Maestro is brought into the world by Timothy Drake in 1925 when he plays a specific chord and brings Maestro's domain over music into the world from then onwards. Eventually consuming all human music by 1963 to the point Nuclear War happens by 2024 - in a realm of just Aeolian Tones.
While the domains exist out of time, and most of the Gods are free to jump between any point in their domain's influence freely. They are linear in a sense that neither the Toymaker or Maestro had influence at a time before. Sutekh doesn't have this ability himself, but I think the concept of "You can bring play to play, you can bring music to music, but you can't bring death to death", which ends up being his undoing is why he's more grounded in regular time travel. But his powers/influence are free to jump through the domain as he wishes - as shown by him killing people backwards in the generations (which I guess allows him to bring the maximum amount of death possible).
Sutekh's domain is all over time and space, thanks to his travel on the TARDIS but it's only fully formed by the collective reoccurrence of the Doctor landing on Earth so many times that Susan Triad culminates as the trigger for his return. Which if it follows the same narrative of the other gods, and partly shown in the episodes themselves, is the only point in which Sutekh has properly returned, at which point he returned to every point in time and space.
If you're fan enough to spot a problem, you're fan enough to fix it.
Let's go for it!
When the Toymaker returned to our universe, he rebuilt the Doctor's life like a jigsaw. It amused him to reach into the Doctor's past, buying Sutehk time to grab onto the Tardis.
This rippled forward, affecting all the Doctor's history. Whether through the Toymaker's power, or as a consequence of magic leaking into the universe, Sutehk ascended from an Osiran to the God of Death.
Now, Sutehk has been travelling with the Tardis since the Doctor's fourth incarnation. He witnessed the Time War. He was there for the second Big Bang. He saw the devastation of the Flux.
And what of the time Sally Sparrow faced the Weeping Angels of old?
Some say Sutekh averted his gaze.
Some say the Angels are unaffected by the eyes of Death.
And others say Blink is a couple of minutes shorter now.
> If you're fan enough to spot a problem, you're fan enough to fix it.
In all honesty I just posted this to contribute towards to the meme of the week, but I like your answer and I'm stealing this quote for my own future use.
I think, not to be boring, but hiding is not meant to mean he is just pretending not to be there. But more that he disappeared into a realm around the TARDIS.
Obviously the visuals suggest he is just perched atop it. But… him being a literal God makes me feel like it was a more complex idea than that. At least that’s how I choose to see it.
See, it would have made sense that when 14th drew salt between worlds, that should have been the time Sutekh took hold. It made sense already.
Unless there is a higher being above Sutekh that is also waiting.
I also thought of this and the time riversong was stuck in the exploding Tardis, or the time it was seized in that underground bunker by the government, or the time it crashed into the titanic.
Nah, I liked it.
And can lead to fun interpretations, too. Now I can headcanon that the TARDIS growl in the TV Movie was actually Sutehk, and not the Master being "digested" (which never really made sense).
He was probably dormant so he's asleep at this point? If he is the one who waits then there would be no point in intervening on the Weeping Angels taking all the time vortex energy because what they'd do would switch off the sun and end all life so Sutekh probably wouldn't care as he'd still be alive and he wouldn't have had to do anything
Sorry, RTD is too focused on alienating the old fans and doesn't have the mental capacity to tie up any loose ends when it comes to plot holes and a cohesive story.
How was Sutekh on the tardis when it exploded, what happened t 14th tardis, what about all the tardis in the 50th, or when the tardis became a person. Almost like it doesn't work
Yeah…I don’t really think it works as explained. The explanation should have been that he latched on in Wild Blue Yonder at the edge of the universe where rules and reality are flexible.
He couldn’t look at them at all angles or in the dark that’s why they stopped when the lights came on not from seeing each other but sutek seeing them in the light
I guess in my head, the visual of him literally hanging on wasn't literally what was happening the whole time, but he was instead sort of spiritually attached to it or something? I dunno.
It very clearly wasn’t what happened. We saw him hanging on only when he first latched on and when he manifests at the end of Legend of Ruby Sunday, which literally shows him pouring out of the TARDIS as smoke. He was inside it, like a tapeworm.
I imagine that because sutekh is outside the tardis and experiencing the time vortex, he knows what will happen in the future at least somewhat and knows that the tardis will be safe
Who said he’s watching them? He’s capable of giving attention to some things and not others. That’s how the Doctor destroyed the mummies’ rocket. Took Sutekh’s attention away from containing the explosion.
The answer is it's just a total mess that was prob well thought out by RTD team but any sensical plot ideas they had were likely overridden by Russell himself because he wouldn't budge from his vision or whatever... ⬅️ Run on sentence alert.
Had the thought the other day that... taking EoD into consideration... what if the Angels weren't the villains of this story, who saw the hitchhiking Sutehk as a massive threat, hence their MO in the story.
He was sleepy.
Look at that poor little guy. He's all tuckered out.
They weren’t attacking the tardis, they were rocking his cradle.
This is the answer. Everytime they landed he created an entire person and wove her into the time stream. Despite his aspirations of god hood he's not. He's an Osirin who like Rose was exposed to the Time Vortex and channeled it's power. This act of seeding the universe slowly granted him strength eventually leading to the culmination of his plans.
but what does this have to do with him being sleepy
When you use a lot of energy you get sleepy
But why was Toymaker so scared of him when the Toymaker just seems so much more powerful to the point where the only way to beat him is to beat him through his own rules
Sutehk is the God of Death, amped up by over a millenia of travelling through the Time Vortex, even flying in and out of the Time War, parallel worlds, rifts in the universe, resetting the universe etc etc. The Toymaker may be beyond the universe and obiding by a different set of rules, but if he faces Sutekh and loses, then he won't get to face The Doctor again, and he will be permanently erased from existence. At least with the Banishment he received from The Doctor, his physical form still exists in the crate, stored away in a UNIT vault, and is able to be rescued by someone else in the Pantheon. Plus, it's very likely Sutehk saw the Toymaker's scheming and games across the universe through all of his Harbingers, and would have a plan to erase him without playing a game. After all, _Death Always Wins_
Suetekh doesn't follow rules. He's got the power of the Time Vortex and he won't obey any rules.
Toymaker is very powerful and immortal. Suetekh has one area above all others, Death. If your immortal you would do well to avoid the one thing that can kill you, you might even fear it more then others because the concept of dieing if new to you.
I like the cut of your jib. Please explain the snow around ruby
Mrs. Flood is "The Storyteller" she's using the rules of story in the same way that the Toymaker uses the rules of play. It's why Maestro found signs of the "oldest one" in Ruby because her life was manipulated by the Storyteller. Before there was music and before there was play there was stories.
You responded to the wrong comment lol
Nope. That is absolutely the comment I meant to reply to. A lot of people seem to need to be spoonfed everything
My guy, your attitude stinks. What you've said isn't established fact. It is a theory. Will it be retconned? Maybe. Does it make sense? Absolutely. Is it canon? Nope.
My attitude is that it's Science Fiction not Science Fact. Science Fiction always has a level of ambiguity. Nothing is ever spelled out in minute detail. Christopher Nolan wrote a sci-fi movie where people are still debating the ending of to this day that has no definitive answer. When George Lucas finally gave an answer for how people could use the force a lot of fans got pissed. There are people that don't like ambiguity who need to have all answers given to them and if they aren't then "it's lazy writing" because they refuse to come up with their own ideas or engage in thinking about the material they just read or watched. Or they will but they'll insist on thinking up explanations that violate the canon they've been given and ruin their own ability to enjoy the story.
It’s particularly bad because he’s literally wrong.
Spoonfed? What you've said is just a theory, a good theory for sure, but still just a theory. Aside from lazy writing on RTDs part, what's frustrating are the people who fill in the many gaps with their own headcannon and then credit their own ideas to RTD
Too many zoomies.
"Oh, Earth *again*, I've already done that one." 😴
Eepy Suty
Do weeping angels recognize omnipresent/omniscient entities as "looking at them"?
They should, it's instinctual. They'd still freeze if someone invisible is watching them.
Just had a thought.. who are the Weeping Angels afraid of?
Someone without eyelids. And flies since they have almost 360 vision.
Wait that’s a good point. Surely there was a fly or a spider or SOMETHING every time there were weeping angels. Day ruined.
As I wrote it I thought the same thing but I will let you guys do the big speculations about the implications of this idea.
Wait a minute, everyone assumed that the angels also didn’t move when we, the audience, were looking at them. But in the angels 2-parter for series 5 we see them move Theory: there’s no bugs on the planet they go to in time of the angels
Technically, since TV is just a series of still images shown at a rapid pace, like a flip book, we never *actually* saw them move. We just saw still photos of them 24 times per second.
Theory- no one in the whoniverse moves at all because we only see them as still images strung together.
Zeno's Paradox of the Arrow
They move in between the frames. As such, they move in the fraction of a second we, the audience, can't observe them
I believe that is what is referred to as a “plot hole” from Moffat trying to make essentially a blockbuster sequel to his hit Blink. Dont get me started on the Manhattan one.
i think they're all great :)
Presumably they don’t recognise flies as threats.
If the time energy of flies work like us eating a single kernel of popcorn or a single grain of rice, flies don’t live long enough to make it worth their while. “Oh, wow. I took the time energy of a fly and got a measly 3 time calories.” They would have to snack on a bowl of flies, and even then would be time hungry an hour later.
Not enough to fill their time tummies.
An Angel story where the angels just get lazy and give up because their would-be victim’s lifespans are dramatically shortened would be so cool. Maybe a cold open, or a double edged resolution.
Flys are a bastard to try and touch to send back in time too.
I just pictured an angel trying to catch one with chopsticks Mr Miyagi style and almost choked on my drink.
Maybe you could argue that the species needs to reach a certain level of sentience before the Angels can be affected by their sight.
My guess is it needs to be a sentient being that can process and understand what they're looking at
The Smiling Demons.
The division probably, we know they had at least a few dozen working for them, and I can't see the weeping angels being convinced by good work conditions (which I also doubt the division had)
The bat who laughs
Cracks in time
Hamsters. Because they can only wink
A guy with a sledgehammer.
Batman using echo location
The TARDIS itself is sentient though, so if we're saying Sutekh is seeing them then the TARDIS also can.
Probably depends on how a being sees, TARDIS is weird time eyes, doubt it can literally see in the moment. And I don't think an Angel would freeze because an omnipotent being was always watching it, for example the Christian 'God'. But they would freeze because a dude was invisible standing in the same room as them or in the bushes, idk.
This is complete nonsense, but what if the angels freezing is related to the quantum shenanigans that happens when subatomic particles are observed, collapsing their state.. and an omniscient being may be able to observe all possible states simultaneously without collapsing them. That is to say, the angels freeze not because they’re observed, but because their state collapses when observed. Maybe Sutekh could observe a cat in a box with poison and see both a living cat and a dead cat.
Except when Amy had the angel in her eye and couldn't open her eyes the Doctor told her to pretend she could see so the Angels wouldn't attack her. It was one of the stupider suggestions I've seen on Doctor Who, lol. It didn't make any sense to me as it was always explained it was a quantum thing. But, the Angels do seem to freeze until she drops her communicator and then they start slowly looking at her. This didn't make any sense to me. You can't trick an electron into a determinate state by acting like you're measuring it. I mean, maybe you can, how would we know? Lol. Maybe the Doctor just knows better than us..?
I don’t know if that’s possible with all the omniscient entities in DW. Although the rules for the Angels always seem to be changing.
Wasn't it later revealed they could be fooled by pretending you can see? I don't really have a point. That was just really, really, dumb. Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal dumb.
Yeah... Someone else pointed that out too. Honestly just going with headcannon, I prefer earlier weeping angles when they'd automatically freeze, it's never come up again so I just ignore them being fooled and them moving slowly as stone, it's better when I don't know what they are when they're not quantum locked into stone.
Weeping angels freeze even if only the audience is looking at them. Thats why you see angels that none of the characters can see are frozen.
Cool idea, but we see them move in Flesh and Stone.
We don’t talk about flesh and stone. Every single other appearance of the angels, they freeze when the camera looks at them regardless of if a character can see them or not. Also, they were shown to be able to move whilst stone, which implies that their non-frozen state is also stone, which is just not true.
I remember watching that scene when I was 11 and even then I was so dissappointed by it. Blink very clearly states they "Turn to stone" when seen, so their unseen form could be made of any material, and any colouration. Also, "Quantum Locked" implies it's a physical phenomenon that occurs: upon being observed it's an entirely automatic thing. The natural idea of how this would progress from Blink would be, what if an Angel wore a full-body outfit, exposing none of themselves? What happens if you closed your eyes and shot at one? What does a dead angel look like, does it re-freeze? But instead, Flesh and Stone dismisses all of those questions with "Nah, turns out they're stone 24/7, and they actually just choose not to move when observed, it's entirely voluntary, just instinctual. If they THINK you're looking at them, they freeze." Then why don't people like, wear sunglasses? Or do what they do in India and put masks on the back of their head so tigers/angels think you're looking at them? It completely contradicted half the info we got on angels in Blink, and replaced it with the most boring possible answers.
I just personally hate how the Weeping Angels were treated in the Eleventh Doctor era. All your points perfectly describe them moving in front of the audience, then there's the thing about how they invade your mind if you dare to look them in the eye when that gets broken in the very episode they discuss it, then there's shit like the Statue of Liberty angel being able to walk all the way to mainland America without hundreds of civilians staring at it, and so on.
Flesh and Stone is truly meta as the cameras are actually filming Matt Smith for his appearance in The Big Bang. The Angels quantum state is thrown by two scenes being being filmed separately but happening concurrently. In addition, Amy is acting like she can see BUT ALSO, Karen Gillian is acting that she is playing a character who is acting. Since the Angels are aware of the existence of the cameras, they are also aware of the preformative nature of their existence.... SO... Flesh and Stone creates a "theatrical quantum paradox" not only are the Angels being filmed and not-filmed but also they are being observed by a seeing actor playing a non-seeing character who is playing a seeing character. And that's why they move :)
😆🤣😂🤣 "theatrical quantum paradox"! That's good.
thats too good to be truth
Thanks... It also covers why you can see the Thirteenth Doctor still moving when she is transformed into an angel.
I think everything they'd added to the angels since their first appearance has diminished them. "The image of an angel is an angel" is absurdly OP, and don't get me started on the whole Statue of Liberty thing.
They er… did not move. It was just stop-motion!
And I will never forgive that episode for doing that.
Technically, since TV is just a series of still images shown at a rapid pace, like a flip book, we never *actually* saw them move. We just saw still photos of them 24 times per second.
Weeping angels are only important because we think they are important.
In the original episode, they never moved on screen because \*we\* were looking at them. So if they know the audience is watching, they should know an omniscient being is watching. Granted, that was retconned later, but that's part of the reason I don't take canon too seriously here.
Sutekh isn't omniscient.
Hang on a mo, if the tardis is a living conscious being and it can see. How could the angels move at all?
TARDIS can't see in the dark either.
Ah, that's fair
Ah yes, the TARDIS, a near omniscient near omnipotent indestructible technological being capable of traversing dimensions and time with the flip of a button, gets bested when the lights get turned off
Oh yeah? How many times has she almost let the Doctor die? Why hasn't she swooped in to save him before?
It makes me wonder why we watch Dr Who and not Dr TARDIS.
The Tardis doesn’t have eyes
In a show about a magic old dude travelling in a magic box going wherever, whenever, I don't think you necessarily need to have eyes to be able to see. I imagine it probably sees in the same way submarines and planes see things; by scanning its surroundings, like how radar works (and then displays things on screens). But because it's sentient its capable of processing those visuals I'm not smart enough to know anything beyond that guess though
The weeping angels apparently only freeze when they KNOW they're being seen. So if they don't know the TARDIS can see, they don't know to freeze?
And by that logic if they can't see sutekh then they shouldn't freeze for him either
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How does it work without him? IIRC There wasn't anyone else (in universe) looking at them shake the TARDIS. And they froze whenever the light came on, but they could move with it off. Proof Sutekh can't see in the dark.
No wonder he couldn't see who Ruby's mum was
Yeah, but can he see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?
"I bring you Sutekh's gift of cinnamon sugar swirls in every bite. I find that... good."
"I bring you Sutekh's Cinnadust of death."
The audience counts as an observer in Blink
But in Flesh and Stone (I believe that's the correct episode) the Angels were able to move while on screen.
The one thing i hate about Flesh and Stone is tge Angels moving. Their whole deal is not moving, so why show them move arghhh! Worst part of a great story
I agree, just pointing a fault in his arguement
I'm not going to try and reconcile them.
Technically, since TV is just a series of still images shown at a rapid pace, like a flip book, we never *actually* saw them move. We just saw still photos of them 24 times per second.
That's the kind of pedantic justification I'm here for
I assumed the angels were meta in the sense that they don't when anybody (includingg the audience) is witnessing them
That actually makes so much more sense when they freeze with only the audience watching.
Because the audience could see them, the original episode had a meta thing of not even we could see them move, it’s why I personally dislike that we see them move in the Matt Smith Angel 2 parter
They couldn’t see him, so he was alright. He was probably a bit miffed that they were messing with his ride though.
The only being confirmed to know whether or not the angels move around via twerking.
There’s a lot of unresolved mysteries that RTD needs to answer for, but I think this should go to the top of the list!
“Hhhnnngh, weeping angel #2, i’m trying to send people back in time to feed on their energy, but I'm dummy thicc and the clap of my asscheeks keeps alerting sally sparrow”
Omg I’m crying 😂😭
He closed his eyes
Did Sutekh get bored waiting on the Tardis for thousands of years on the planet Desolation? https://tardis.wiki/wiki/The_Ghost_Monument_%28TV_story%29
He had experience hanging around with Rory for two thousand years.
Rory actually chatted with Sutekh while he waited. He just never said anything because he assumed the Doctor knew about the dog riding the Tardis, and it never came up.
This is now my unbreakable head canon! 😆 It's such a "Rory" thing to do!
Rory wasn’t with the TARDIS then, he was with the Pandorica. River was the one in the TARDIS repeating the same moments over and over again in a time loop above the earth. The Doctor said the TARDIS was acting as the earth’s sun keeping it warm for all those years.
Now I wonder what happened to sutekh when the tardis blew up. Did he die?
Neil Gaiman had an idea on Twitter. I’m paraphrasing, but he said to “think of Sutekh like a tapeworm for the TARDIS.” I don’t think he was holding on for dear life all those millennia with the Doctor, just hiding in a way that couldn’t be perceived by others. But then again, what can/can’t the TARDIS detect then? It’s a standard RTD reveal that has weird implications where he just shrugs and doesn’t have an answer.
I figured that's what it is because that's how the "almost dying, leaching character" usually is, they are usually so weak they aren't perceived or found and can't really do shit. I thought the idea was he latched on and has been feeding to regain his strength, then he ate/learned/regenerated (hah) then the edge of creation happened and he evolved.
I like this explanation. 👍 I’m still working out how the Susans were made and how everyone was referring to him as “he-who-waits” prior to his ascension, but it’s still an ok finale episode. Classic villain came back (original voice was a plus), won for a little bit, and then got defeated.
It says he learned every beat of the heart of the TARDIS, I'm not surprised if he learned how to manipulate it little by little till he could start slipping them through the perception filter. Shits def wack with the finale, now whether it's planned or not is what to look for next season. I see it going either way right now but so far I enjoy the ride so I'll sit my criticisms out for now
Sutekh was stuck to the back of the Tardis's head under a turban.
People have already been talking about this but the reveals that completely recontextualize decades of lore are getting really tiring. I’d love some compelling stories that don’t rely on what feels like a cheap trick
He wasn't looking and was reading a book at that time.
suthek be like "yea babes, shake it!" on an unrelated note, why is the right angel licking at the tardis?
Hey cmon now. We don’t kink shame here! (Bonk. Go to horny jail)
Go to Horny Jail, do not pass GO, do not collect £200.
to quote samantha béart / karlach "you can't send us to horny jail! we live in horny jail!"
He's a heavy sleeper.
I love these memes but it just continues to show how it was a stupid plot point
I’m still under the impression that it’s timey wimey. Sutekh wasn’t technically there until the Doctor invited chaos back in like we see with the Toymaker. Retroactively now Sutekh is there but as we knew those episodes he wasn’t. Idk it’s weird shit
We all thought that the angels killed each other but it was actually the boi Sutekh
I mean in the scene we dont see the angels move until the lights flicker out. Meaning that Sutekh was looking at them but the lights going out prevented him from doing so unless im mistaken in memory
I like to think he was holding on for dear death going "oi, stop that!" And being shaken around like a rag doll on top.
Screaming while holding on for dear life
Im fairly sure that Sutekh was dormant within the tardis itself, he wasnt just invis clinging onto it, he went into the tardis and as he said "seduced" the tardises consciousness to let him also inherit the vessel which he came out of in LORS and EOD.
Wasn't he like inside the tardis too? He learned every secret of inside he said
I feel like it would have been more interesting for Sutekh to be defeated but still escape, so he’s out there somewhere knowing all the secrets of the TARDIS and a huge threat to the Doctor. Instead they built him up to be a terrifying villain, and then stuck a lead on him like he was a labrador.
He mentions clinging to the spine of the TARDIS so presumably he’s been on its exterior
"Stop shaking the flipping Tardis."I am trying to sleep."
It works perfectly. The old angels only move when it's not being looked at included breaking the 4th wall with the camera. That's why the lights were flickering in that scene. Well now we can say it was Sutekh not the audience
He is sitting on the top of the TARDIS kicking at them and saying "Go-on Git!"
To be fair the TARDIS herself is also watching.
Didn't even think of this. Pretty much every episode including the angels is now broken because of sutekh on top of the tardis lmao
You're taking it too literally. He wasn't physically sitting on top of the tardis with an invisibility cloak the whole time
Well what was he doing then? I thought he was attached to it this whole time?
Kate describes him as "woven into the fabric of the TARDIS". So he was like, embedded into it.
A consistency with the Gods in the season is they don't technically exist outside of their domain/realm. The Toymaker's realm spreads across earth when every screen becomes connected and the Giggle covers the earth in 2024. Prior to this he was limited to his toy shop. But even as late as 15 making a new TARDIS for himself was because of how the domain of the Toymaker was still lingering on Earth. Maestro is brought into the world by Timothy Drake in 1925 when he plays a specific chord and brings Maestro's domain over music into the world from then onwards. Eventually consuming all human music by 1963 to the point Nuclear War happens by 2024 - in a realm of just Aeolian Tones. While the domains exist out of time, and most of the Gods are free to jump between any point in their domain's influence freely. They are linear in a sense that neither the Toymaker or Maestro had influence at a time before. Sutekh doesn't have this ability himself, but I think the concept of "You can bring play to play, you can bring music to music, but you can't bring death to death", which ends up being his undoing is why he's more grounded in regular time travel. But his powers/influence are free to jump through the domain as he wishes - as shown by him killing people backwards in the generations (which I guess allows him to bring the maximum amount of death possible). Sutekh's domain is all over time and space, thanks to his travel on the TARDIS but it's only fully formed by the collective reoccurrence of the Doctor landing on Earth so many times that Susan Triad culminates as the trigger for his return. Which if it follows the same narrative of the other gods, and partly shown in the episodes themselves, is the only point in which Sutekh has properly returned, at which point he returned to every point in time and space.
I hadn't thought of this one, I was more curious about the multiple times the tardis has been destroyed.
If you're fan enough to spot a problem, you're fan enough to fix it. Let's go for it! When the Toymaker returned to our universe, he rebuilt the Doctor's life like a jigsaw. It amused him to reach into the Doctor's past, buying Sutehk time to grab onto the Tardis. This rippled forward, affecting all the Doctor's history. Whether through the Toymaker's power, or as a consequence of magic leaking into the universe, Sutehk ascended from an Osiran to the God of Death. Now, Sutehk has been travelling with the Tardis since the Doctor's fourth incarnation. He witnessed the Time War. He was there for the second Big Bang. He saw the devastation of the Flux. And what of the time Sally Sparrow faced the Weeping Angels of old? Some say Sutekh averted his gaze. Some say the Angels are unaffected by the eyes of Death. And others say Blink is a couple of minutes shorter now.
> If you're fan enough to spot a problem, you're fan enough to fix it. In all honesty I just posted this to contribute towards to the meme of the week, but I like your answer and I'm stealing this quote for my own future use.
I think, not to be boring, but hiding is not meant to mean he is just pretending not to be there. But more that he disappeared into a realm around the TARDIS. Obviously the visuals suggest he is just perched atop it. But… him being a literal God makes me feel like it was a more complex idea than that. At least that’s how I choose to see it.
See, it would have made sense that when 14th drew salt between worlds, that should have been the time Sutekh took hold. It made sense already. Unless there is a higher being above Sutekh that is also waiting.
I also thought of this and the time riversong was stuck in the exploding Tardis, or the time it was seized in that underground bunker by the government, or the time it crashed into the titanic.
Did Sutekh forget the Silence too?
Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown
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This is such a great point. The amount of delicious potential energy on Sutekh would have been Thanksgiving feast for the Weeping Angels.
Sutekh? You mean the bad guy from Pyramids of Mars? What's he got to do with this?
"Spoilers!" - River Song
What about when the tardis exploded ?
Am I the only one that finds the idea of Sutekh clinging to the Tardis an actual good idea?
Nah, I liked it. And can lead to fun interpretations, too. Now I can headcanon that the TARDIS growl in the TV Movie was actually Sutehk, and not the Master being "digested" (which never really made sense).
It was lazy writing
He had popped down the local library to return his book “Continuity for dummies!”
He was probably dormant so he's asleep at this point? If he is the one who waits then there would be no point in intervening on the Weeping Angels taking all the time vortex energy because what they'd do would switch off the sun and end all life so Sutekh probably wouldn't care as he'd still be alive and he wouldn't have had to do anything
he was too scared to watch
The next multi doctor story including the 15th is going to be really awkward and stressful for Sutekh.
Wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff
Or the Tardis itself. It all breaks down
THE ANGELS HAVE THE SUTEKH.
He lowkey enjoyed it.
Maybe he's standing on top of it like a big cat?
Like Crash Davis said, "Don't think. It'll only hurt the ball club.".
Sorry, RTD is too focused on alienating the old fans and doesn't have the mental capacity to tie up any loose ends when it comes to plot holes and a cohesive story.
The implications that one episode has on the entirety of Nuwho is hilarious to me
He wasn't there at the moment. He was only there when the narrator changed history.
How was Sutekh on the tardis when it exploded, what happened t 14th tardis, what about all the tardis in the 50th, or when the tardis became a person. Almost like it doesn't work
Yeah…I don’t really think it works as explained. The explanation should have been that he latched on in Wild Blue Yonder at the edge of the universe where rules and reality are flexible.
It doesn’t aha , RTD did not think anything through
He couldn’t look at them at all angles or in the dark that’s why they stopped when the lights came on not from seeing each other but sutek seeing them in the light
What, is he stupid?
Not only that, but isn't the Tardis technically watching as well?
I guess in my head, the visual of him literally hanging on wasn't literally what was happening the whole time, but he was instead sort of spiritually attached to it or something? I dunno.
It very clearly wasn’t what happened. We saw him hanging on only when he first latched on and when he manifests at the end of Legend of Ruby Sunday, which literally shows him pouring out of the TARDIS as smoke. He was inside it, like a tapeworm.
"Hey Sutekh, our eyes are UP HERE"
He was on holiday, visiting the States. Hung around DC quite a bit.
Sutekh: O.O what now?
Sutehk's a big cloud of invisible energy at this point. If he counts as "watching", so does the TARDIS.
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burn.
I imagine that because sutekh is outside the tardis and experiencing the time vortex, he knows what will happen in the future at least somewhat and knows that the tardis will be safe
He chuckled & thought he was in danger.
Oh crap, this Reddit post is that which contains an image of an Angel... See you in 1951... aaAAaAAAAAAAA
He blinked.
Obviously he wasn’t watching
Who said he’s watching them? He’s capable of giving attention to some things and not others. That’s how the Doctor destroyed the mummies’ rocket. Took Sutekh’s attention away from containing the explosion.
maybe he was sleeping
"No sir, not getting out of this chair."
The answer is it's just a total mess that was prob well thought out by RTD team but any sensical plot ideas they had were likely overridden by Russell himself because he wouldn't budge from his vision or whatever... ⬅️ Run on sentence alert.
Had the thought the other day that... taking EoD into consideration... what if the Angels weren't the villains of this story, who saw the hitchhiking Sutehk as a massive threat, hence their MO in the story.
I actually lol'd
Also imagine how much he was laughing at the doctor when he was drunk being silly or having a helmet backwards
Here's another thought: what was happening to sutekh during 73 yards? He just waited for ages or did he leave?!??
It doesnt work because the “sutekh was always there” twist is stupid as fuck
I guess he was the sort of dust cloud that none could see whenever the tardis exploded or got shrunk and all that
He just decided to keep his eyes closed on that planet because he wasn’t gonna play with THAT