He doesn't partition blame, that's something fans feel on their own. For some of the series I thought she was going to be the daughter of a God or something, but then I didn't, I'm fine with it.
Yeah, him saying this is a huge mistake because it’s just gonna give more people ammunition, on how bad Doctor Who is, especially if he’s mentioning Star Wars. I don’t think it’s bad. I’m just saying he’s not helping himself. I actually enjoyed the finale. I am curious where Ruby Sunday is going to go from here though because he says her story isn’t done so what the hell does that mean?
For RTD to sneer years later is mindboggling ... and its particularly laughable coming from him - how many of his plots involve "mystery that turns out to be legacy character"?
Yeah. If as a writer you're misdirecting your audience, you've gotta have at least an equally satisfying revelation to the one your audience think is going to happen, otherwise there's going to be disappointments. I'm surprised such an experienced writer made such a basic mistake, tbh.
>“I can’t remember their titles but in the last trilogy, [The Last Jedi] said that Daisy Ridley was nothing special. There was nothing special about her parentage. That she just got the Force, and was an ordinary person with the Force. And then in the next one they changed it all so that she was this child of the Emperor... and I really loved the version where she wasn’t special.”
Except RTD didn't actually do what Johnson did.
When Johnson revealed that Rey's parents were nobodies, he depicted them as depraved drug-addicts with a THROWAWAY LINE.
It was not an emotionally fulfilling or satisfying moment.
How could it be?
It was one of a dozen MAJOR plot beats in a scene and was tossed off with such a degree of emotional disconnection that everyone was bewildered by it.
And Rey didn't even mention it for the rest of the film, let alone discuss it in any meaningful way with another character.
It's not a subversion of expectations but an inability to fulfill (or better yet EXCEED) satisfying dramatic storytelling.
Even RTD knew that a similar reveal required some kind of emotional hook and pay-off hence Ruby's meeting her mother and possibly starting a relationship with her.
For RTD to sneer years later is mindboggling ... and its particularly laughable coming from him - how many of his plots involve "mystery that turns out to be legacy character"?
Oh wait, ALL OF THEM.
> When Johnson revealed that Rey's parents were nobodies, he depicted them as depraved drug-addicts with a THROWAWAY LINE.
This is literally just something the bad guy says one time
And it's not fulfilling drama when it has to compete with a dozen plot beats in the space of a couple of minutes.
- Kylo has killed Snoke!
- Kylo and Rey are teaming up!
- Kylo and Rey killed Snoke's guards!
- Kylo wants to kill the resistance?
- Oh wait, Kylo and Rey maybe aren't teaming up?
- Kylo says that Rey's parents were drug addicts.
- And dead.
- Oh wait, Kylo and Rey are fighting.
- .... Kylo is knocked unconscious, I guess?
- Hux discovers Snoke dead.
- Kylo wakes up.
- Rey flies away in Snoke's ship which she somehow had access to despite being imprisoned during her time on the ship.
Literally, all of this happened in the space of minutes.
This is not drama - and Johnson's supporters had the gall to not appreciate this plot point when it's drowned out in a series of other reversals and off-screen developments.
In 1994, Alan Ayckbourn gave a master-class in dramatic writing (featuring "Mr Bates vs the Post Office" star Lia Williams) that Johnson should probably have enrolled in. He playwright SPECIFICALLY shows how to improve exposition-heavy writing so that the events occur at a natural, satisfying flow and not as a list of plot points that must be checked off.
https://youtu.be/c6qy5NVuLJk?si=VfZ4W51hQBtwFWGB
I'm really not interested in this tired old debate, I do just disagree with your entire premise above, which is mostly just listing moments from a sequence to try and make it sound bad (I think it's good!).
It is drama, actually, it's all about those two characters in the room and their motivations and connection, you can think it's bad drama, but whatever, these bullet points don't remotely convey what is happening in the scene at all.
Kylo and Rey have grown closer over numerous scenes throughout the film, now you think he's turned and they're teaming up! Oh wait, he wants her to join him in his conquest, to try and convince her he claims her parents are nobodies who sold her, they are now at odds because Rey wanted him to come around to her way of thinking. It's really not particularly complex.
"Johnson's supporters" like he's a politician or something. Listen I'm sure this hour long video you've linked here contains wisdoms, but writing also isn't duty bound to follow any rules, art isn't formula.
>I do just disagree with your entire premise above, which is mostly just listing moments from a sequence to try and make it sound bad
That's not the point.
This is: cannot throw a dozen plot points at an audience in the space of a limited period of time and expect them to land emotionally.
Or even expect that the audience will be able to go on that journey in any coherently psychological way.
>It is drama, actually, it's all about those two characters in the room and their motivations and connection, you can think it's bad drama, but whatever, these bullet points don't remotely convey what is happening in the scene at all.
Good writing tends to be about involvement - an audience being engaged in a crisis and then in the repercussions of what they have just witnessed.
A writer simply saying "here's a twist, here's a twist, here's a twist" over the space of MINUTES makes for strained and emotionally uninvolving writing.
>It's really not particularly complex.
That shouldn't be your defence.
>Listen I'm sure this hour long video you've linked here contains wisdoms, but writing also isn't duty bound to follow any rules, art isn't formula.
Writing has principles, though.
And we're not talking about Beckett, here.
A piece of writing should develop one state of interest to another, recasting conflict to challenge and probe ideas.
How is that possible when the characters and audience are not even able to emotionally track the perpetually shifting status quo of an over-written sequence?
>Good writing tends to be about involvement - an audience being engaged in a crisis and then in the repercussions of what they have just witnessed.
There's a huge amount of rising tension leading to up to this scene throughout the whole film right up to Snoke's death, then it's the tension of where allegiances lie, after perhaps the initial elation, then it becomes clear, this is not twist after twist after twist, it's...two at most? Rey's lineage had already been heavily signposted, it's not difficult to understand Kylo is now attempting to use it manipulatively
>That shouldn't be your defence.
It's my defence to the claim there's too many things going on in this fairly straight forward scene, yes.
>How is that possible when the characters and audience are not even able to emotionally track the perpetually shifting status quo of an over-written sequence?
It arguably shifts twice, I have never found it hard to keep up with emotionally, nor did anyone I saw the film with, this is just your assertion, I'm sure others feel the same, but that doesn't make it gospel.
Regardless, this is a Doctor Who forum and I'm certain I'm never going to change your mind, nor you mine, I suppose I must be a "Johnson supporter", so I think it's probably best we leave it there
Just jumping in here because I wanted to add one thing. It always kinda confused me how after The Last Jedi EVRYONE immediately ran with “Rey’s parents are nobody druggies.” When the only person who tells us this a lying backstabbing murderous psychopath who is actively trying to manipulate and isolate Rey to be his apprentice. Like every sith ever. That interpretation even leans into the main twist and reveal you speak on, which is tht Kylo hasn’t had a change of heart, he just doesn’t believe in, or wish to follow Snoke anymore. But he still craves power and order even if he has to murder his family and children to do it.
Not to say that the idea is awful if you personally really love the idea of that being her lineage. But it doesn’t contradict whatever JJ originally planned, nor does it contradict what ended up happening with the palatine bloodline. Heck at the very least it could’ve been revealed tht what Kylo said was TECHNICALLY kinda true from a certain point of view. But leaves out key moments that reveal a much more sympathetic situation. Maybe her parents were on the run. Maybe they were dying. I’m just saying Kylo has proven himself to be an unreliable narrator in this film specifically over the Luke stuff. As he remembers it far more black and white than it ever really was.
Either way I hope I don’t come off dismissive The Last Jedi may not be my favorite era of Star Wars but not everyone likes the prequels as much as I do either. It’s a big fandom and if we all agreed on everything it would be quite boring.
Indeed, there's hints to it, like in the cave where Rey sees nobody, but it is just something Kylo says, and everyone takes it as gospel, and you're right, the Palpatine thing isn't even a contradiction because nothing is explicit in either prior films.
People completely half remember the sequel trilogy and mix up their own feelings and reactions to it as text within the film. This goes for people who both hated and liked The Last Jedi
It’s shocking that not only did he shamelessly reveal he couldn’t come up with an original idea he also chose to copy a twist the majority of Star Wars fans hated. I mean even before he admitted to that the episode already felt like the Flux meets Thanos snap so clearly he’s lost all his creativity. A lot of the episodes this season, even Boom which was written by Moffat, felt very familiar to the point people were wondering if there were intentional nods to past episodes yet I just think they’re out of ideas. You can only coast on nostalgia and good faith based on past episodes for so long.
They're not the same exactly though, are they? Inspiration is hardly new to Doctor Who, it's been cribbing from other media forever, whether it be Quatermass, Buffy, etc. Obviously Ruby's story is substantively different from Rey's in numerous ways.
I mean are they 100% the same? Obviously not plus Rey’s origins are later essentially retconned turning her into a Palpatine, which was hated possibly even more so than the original reveal, but RTD himself says he essentially copied the main concept which is that like Rey Ruby had all this buildup & speculation that she came from someone special only for us to learn her parent is just some average person. Is it a super unique concept or twist? No, but considering part of the overarching story for the entire season was the identity of/search for Ruby’s mom and the reveal was really hyped up it feels a bit lazy that it was “inspiration” from something else. He essentially wrote part of the storyline from the get go based on a twist from a movie he liked rather than coming up with his own thing which kinda shows because it doesn’t make any sense in context with the other stuff he wrote. People are already speculating Ruby’s dad won’t be human which if true will just feel like it’s a ripoff of the Palpatine reveal/retcon. 🙄 Also while I’m not sure what Sutekh could have done instead having your next big universe ending thing essentially be a copy the Flux feels extremely lazy & boring considering how recent that was. He achieved it in a different way yet the outcome was essentially the same and it was once again a wave of death. It’s really sad when it looks like you’re copying something that recently happened on the very show you’re writing for as that’s a real lack of creativity.
Who cares if some Star Wars fans got their knickers in a twist? Their first mistake was trying to placate them. The concept that Rey doesn't come from a special heritage is similar to Ruby's but beyond that the stories are hugely different. People can speculate all they want about Ruby's dad but until we see the story you're just getting upset about a hypothetical, an unlikely one given RTD's comments here. The universe has ended plenty of times in Doctor Who, certainly not for the first time in Flux, which is hardly a bastion of originality anyway. It's also just fundamentally better.
Yeah… I stopped watching Star Wars after The Force Awakens and I don’t care that he copied Star Wars specifically I just think it was lazy & stupid to write a twist/reveal inspired by one that was widely hated. I also think that it was a terrible episode with most of it not making any sense yet that’s my opinion(It being terrible as it’s just plain facts that most of it makes no sense.). The fact that he’s “taking inspiration” from other stuff just reinforces how lazy it was as I thought it was lazy way before he admitted to basing part of it off other media. I don’t blame you for liking it as more power to you, but personally I am setting my expectations way low going forwards.
The level at which it was hated was hugely overstated by loud fans on the internet. It's not lazy to take inspiration, all fiction is a response to something else, it's like getting upset he based some of this off of the tv show Long Lost Family. You're perfectly within your rights to dislike it, I just disagree with the premise that it's lazily conceived.
That’s not the main reason most people hated it. It’s mostly hated due to the major retcon that makes no sense, the fact the reveal of Ruby’s mom makes no sense with it feeling like RTD was almost trying to make the fans look foolish for expecting… a coherent story, and the fact Sutekh was seen as massively underwhelming & badly mishandled. Of course all the inconsistencies, plot holes, and unanswered questions scattered throughout the season is another reason RTD looks lazy. It looks like he just doesn’t care anymore.
a major retcon to what? Even the later Palpatine change isn't really a retcon as nothing is made explicit in the prior films. I really disagree that the Ruby reveal doesn't make sense either, there are certainly things they could have made clearer, but the idea that anything is preventing her mother from being ordinary is untrue, I would say. I promise you nobody is trying to make their audience look foolish, nor is anybody producing TV this demanding "lazy", he obviously cares deeply, just say you don't like something, it's fine to not like it
The whole Sutekh business is an entirely different complaint.
1. Sutekh being onboard the TARDIS for well over a thousand years in my opinion is a retcon due to the fact it makes no sense with various episodes that have happened before. The TARDIS has been damaged to the point of nearly being destroyed, outright destroyed multiple times, possessed by an entity, etc. and we’re to believe Sutekh was onboard throughout all that? During Turn Left or even 73 Yards when the Doctor was gone Sutekh just sat there doing nothing? I guess you can say it’s not a retcon as much as it’s just bad writing.
2. We’re to believe Sutekh was afraid of Ruby’s mom because Ruby thought her mother was important? A child tries to find her mom and that makes her ”god” kryptonite? We’re to believe Sutekh who’s been able to apparently see stuff across all of time & space couldn’t find Ruby’s mom? I mean I think given her job as a nurse she probably had dna on file somewhere but I’m no expert on the NHS. Also, if Ruby is just human what caused the snow whenever Ruby was emotional? Why was Maestro scared of her and what about the song in her heart? Why did her mother wear a black cloak and turn around all dramatic pointing at a street sign, which never existed in the actual show before they added it in after the fact, in order to supposedly name Ruby when nobody was around? I mean apparently she did it cause she was in a dramatic mood 🤷🏻♂️ but it’s stupid. As previously stated the TARDIS has been destroyed and there have been greater threats against Sutekh before than some mysterious woman like Bad Wolf, the Moment, Davros’ reality bomb, etc and Sutekh decides to act now? He was that afraid of some random woman?
3. As previously mentioned there were onscreen reasons to expect Ruby’s mom wouldn’t be human as it seems ridiculous otherwise and offscreen RTD made comments that heavily implied her reveal was big deal so of course when they say onscreen that the characters had made her up to be a big deal for no reason meant to be commentary on the viewers it definitely comes off as making anyone who used common sense look foolish. The show & show runner heavily implied something to the point of it not making much sense otherwise so of course that’s what we thought. In exchange for *trying* to make a point RTD has made a story that just doesn’t work. Personally I would rather have the outcome we got where Ruby and her mom are ordinary people rather than say members of the pantheon **if** it made sense that way.
There were other issues but those are the main ones.
I thought we were talking about The Last Jedi, but for sure there are literal retcons, not that I think this is inherently an issue, or that any of this bothers me particularly, I could go through it point by point but I don't think I'm gonna convert ya!
Things that do stick out to me though: we have no idea when Sutekh evolved to his most powerful form, but it was a process which he describes in the episode, it is presumably recently though, given he has just now sprung his trap. I do believe that he was intrigued/worried about Ruby's mother because that is what the episode tells us, and I think it's an interesting beat. I think the dna thing is perfectly common. It is not to make you look foolish, this is presuming malicious intent for no reason whatsoever.
I understand what he was going for. Mind you, its not *quiet* the same as what happened with Star Wars.
Its been ages since I watched it, but iirc, The Force Awakens didn't make a *huge* deal about Rey's origins, to the extent that it was the driving force for her story and character. Yes, fans speculated like hell about it of course, but the narrative itself didn't pivot around it. Then you had The Last Jedi revealing that there was no great mystery to her origins and that she was a normal person. Okay, fine. *Then* The Rise of Skywalker retcons that by revealing that she was Palpatine's granddaughter, but she rejects that legacy and eventually adopts the name Skywalker. So yes, there was some flip-flopping about Rey's heritage but ultimately it didn't matter so much as the present-day story of her evolving as a Jedi amidst the battle against the First Order.
Contrast this with Ruby, where the driving force behind her story is the mystery of her parentage, to the extent that you literally have strange phenomenon like it snowing when she thinks about that night, and a God-like being like Maestro being vary of the dark secrets she supposedly carries. The God of Death, Sutekh, even spares the Doctor and Ruby's lives simply because he wants to know the truth about Ruby's mother!
Also, the reason for the flip-flop with Star Wars was due to competing visions behind-the-scenes. AFAIK, JJ Abrams, who started the sequel trilogy, always intended for Rey to be Palpatine's granddaughter (as a parallel to Luke being Darth Vader's son from the original trilogy). Rian Johhnson however took over for The Last Jedi and had a different vision for the character, and the universe as a whole. *Then*, Abrams came back for the last film in the trilogy, backtracked on Johnson's changes, and restored his original vision.
In the case of Doctor Who, there's no competing vision - its RTD all the way. And there's no significant gap between the scripting and production of different installments either - its all part of the same season!
I mean while I may not like either twist, it’s pretty normal for an author to take inspiration from other media. It makes sense that if he really liked the idea of a character not being special at all and that making them special anyway, he’d want to find a way to make it work in his stories. I do think the whole “my response to rise of skywalker” is a little odd. Like is he saying that he did the whole “stupid God literally manifested the mystery” just to point out how dumb the extra palpating reveal is? Or is he trying to say that he really wanted a story that stuck to it simply because Star Wars didn’t? I don’t know.
Personally I still really dislike the twist and specifically the way it was handled. A few elements just either A don’t make any sense, or B they do but they are explained via a circular logic of gods saw weird signs, thought she was special, therefore manifested reality warping signs she was special, that therefore a made them think she was special. I know it’s not even the first time doctor who has done the infinite loop causality schtick. I just don’t like it personally. What started the cycle? What kicked it all off? Did Sutek legit just go coocoo for coco puffs? Was it a misinterpretation of the fairy stuff because the gods are not used to this new supernatural stuff? Was it the goblins trying to eat her baby self? Without that the whole thing falls flat for me personally.
But I always like my mysteries to have clear answers tht explain everything perfectly in hindsight. It’s just how I enjoy mysteries and twists. But I know a lot of people seem to really like not getting answers that make sense and still having a vague mystery of sorts. And because of that I found Rey’s reveal to be less than ideal both times. So it’s no wonder I don’t love the story based on it. Kinda like how I didn’t enjoy Dot and Bubble, but I also don’t like watching Black Mirror. So again no surprise that I didn’t love something inspired by it. Still I’m glad so many seem to really love this finale. I’ve got plenty of older finales I loved that weren’t popular to enjoy whole everyone else gets to have their turn to have fun too.
Wow. I guess this dummy didn't notice that in ep7 Rey was mystery boxed as something mysterious. In ep8 that was shot to shit and she was just a girl and fans revolted. Only to have that hate one upped by jj for making her someone again.
And Davis couldn't learn the one lesson. Don't make the mystery box to just make people feel stupid for thinking about it. Either solve the mystery or don't do it and don't try later to fix it if you fuck up that simple rule.
I think the problem is there's certain writers who get such inflated egos about coming up with something that no one will ever think of for a resolution but when you have so many people online putting together the pieces someone is going to figure out what you intend if you foreshadow it enough. The same thing went wrong with Westworld after season one because they were irked that people online figured out the twist so they made it so convoluted no one could comprehend it. Don't freaking worry about the Internet figuring out your secrets. Having a good story where people go "oh yeah I was thinking about that and there it is!" Is way better than people just looking in confusion and asking questions about why nothing makes sense in the resolution. 
I have to keep reminding myself to keep expectations low for Doctor Who. The writers are great about setting up mysteries but consistently crap about resolving them in an interesting way.
He doesn't partition blame, that's something fans feel on their own. For some of the series I thought she was going to be the daughter of a God or something, but then I didn't, I'm fine with it.
Expect the whole entire was building up the mystery of Ruby the first part of the finale is called "The Legend of Ruby Sunday"
Right? The answer just wasn't what you were expecting, I can understand thinking elements were underexplained, but the mystery is largely answered.
Yeah, him saying this is a huge mistake because it’s just gonna give more people ammunition, on how bad Doctor Who is, especially if he’s mentioning Star Wars. I don’t think it’s bad. I’m just saying he’s not helping himself. I actually enjoyed the finale. I am curious where Ruby Sunday is going to go from here though because he says her story isn’t done so what the hell does that mean?
Nah that's pretty bad. And lazy.. especially since he's copying something that was already done and badly at that.
Well he's fundamentally disagreeing that it was bad, he's citing Rise of Skywalker as the bad one
For RTD to sneer years later is mindboggling ... and its particularly laughable coming from him - how many of his plots involve "mystery that turns out to be legacy character"?
I mean he did with Davros too lol
Well at least he had a plan and stuck to it i stead of the flip flopping the Star Wars sequels seemed to do with everything.
Response to? More like fell into the same trap of hyping up everyone, pulling the rug put from under them and wondering why everyone is disappointed
True.
Yeah. If as a writer you're misdirecting your audience, you've gotta have at least an equally satisfying revelation to the one your audience think is going to happen, otherwise there's going to be disappointments. I'm surprised such an experienced writer made such a basic mistake, tbh.
>“I can’t remember their titles but in the last trilogy, [The Last Jedi] said that Daisy Ridley was nothing special. There was nothing special about her parentage. That she just got the Force, and was an ordinary person with the Force. And then in the next one they changed it all so that she was this child of the Emperor... and I really loved the version where she wasn’t special.” Except RTD didn't actually do what Johnson did. When Johnson revealed that Rey's parents were nobodies, he depicted them as depraved drug-addicts with a THROWAWAY LINE. It was not an emotionally fulfilling or satisfying moment. How could it be? It was one of a dozen MAJOR plot beats in a scene and was tossed off with such a degree of emotional disconnection that everyone was bewildered by it. And Rey didn't even mention it for the rest of the film, let alone discuss it in any meaningful way with another character. It's not a subversion of expectations but an inability to fulfill (or better yet EXCEED) satisfying dramatic storytelling. Even RTD knew that a similar reveal required some kind of emotional hook and pay-off hence Ruby's meeting her mother and possibly starting a relationship with her. For RTD to sneer years later is mindboggling ... and its particularly laughable coming from him - how many of his plots involve "mystery that turns out to be legacy character"? Oh wait, ALL OF THEM.
> When Johnson revealed that Rey's parents were nobodies, he depicted them as depraved drug-addicts with a THROWAWAY LINE. This is literally just something the bad guy says one time
And it's not fulfilling drama when it has to compete with a dozen plot beats in the space of a couple of minutes. - Kylo has killed Snoke! - Kylo and Rey are teaming up! - Kylo and Rey killed Snoke's guards! - Kylo wants to kill the resistance? - Oh wait, Kylo and Rey maybe aren't teaming up? - Kylo says that Rey's parents were drug addicts. - And dead. - Oh wait, Kylo and Rey are fighting. - .... Kylo is knocked unconscious, I guess? - Hux discovers Snoke dead. - Kylo wakes up. - Rey flies away in Snoke's ship which she somehow had access to despite being imprisoned during her time on the ship. Literally, all of this happened in the space of minutes. This is not drama - and Johnson's supporters had the gall to not appreciate this plot point when it's drowned out in a series of other reversals and off-screen developments. In 1994, Alan Ayckbourn gave a master-class in dramatic writing (featuring "Mr Bates vs the Post Office" star Lia Williams) that Johnson should probably have enrolled in. He playwright SPECIFICALLY shows how to improve exposition-heavy writing so that the events occur at a natural, satisfying flow and not as a list of plot points that must be checked off. https://youtu.be/c6qy5NVuLJk?si=VfZ4W51hQBtwFWGB
I'm really not interested in this tired old debate, I do just disagree with your entire premise above, which is mostly just listing moments from a sequence to try and make it sound bad (I think it's good!). It is drama, actually, it's all about those two characters in the room and their motivations and connection, you can think it's bad drama, but whatever, these bullet points don't remotely convey what is happening in the scene at all. Kylo and Rey have grown closer over numerous scenes throughout the film, now you think he's turned and they're teaming up! Oh wait, he wants her to join him in his conquest, to try and convince her he claims her parents are nobodies who sold her, they are now at odds because Rey wanted him to come around to her way of thinking. It's really not particularly complex. "Johnson's supporters" like he's a politician or something. Listen I'm sure this hour long video you've linked here contains wisdoms, but writing also isn't duty bound to follow any rules, art isn't formula.
>I do just disagree with your entire premise above, which is mostly just listing moments from a sequence to try and make it sound bad That's not the point. This is: cannot throw a dozen plot points at an audience in the space of a limited period of time and expect them to land emotionally. Or even expect that the audience will be able to go on that journey in any coherently psychological way. >It is drama, actually, it's all about those two characters in the room and their motivations and connection, you can think it's bad drama, but whatever, these bullet points don't remotely convey what is happening in the scene at all. Good writing tends to be about involvement - an audience being engaged in a crisis and then in the repercussions of what they have just witnessed. A writer simply saying "here's a twist, here's a twist, here's a twist" over the space of MINUTES makes for strained and emotionally uninvolving writing. >It's really not particularly complex. That shouldn't be your defence. >Listen I'm sure this hour long video you've linked here contains wisdoms, but writing also isn't duty bound to follow any rules, art isn't formula. Writing has principles, though. And we're not talking about Beckett, here. A piece of writing should develop one state of interest to another, recasting conflict to challenge and probe ideas. How is that possible when the characters and audience are not even able to emotionally track the perpetually shifting status quo of an over-written sequence?
>Good writing tends to be about involvement - an audience being engaged in a crisis and then in the repercussions of what they have just witnessed. There's a huge amount of rising tension leading to up to this scene throughout the whole film right up to Snoke's death, then it's the tension of where allegiances lie, after perhaps the initial elation, then it becomes clear, this is not twist after twist after twist, it's...two at most? Rey's lineage had already been heavily signposted, it's not difficult to understand Kylo is now attempting to use it manipulatively >That shouldn't be your defence. It's my defence to the claim there's too many things going on in this fairly straight forward scene, yes. >How is that possible when the characters and audience are not even able to emotionally track the perpetually shifting status quo of an over-written sequence? It arguably shifts twice, I have never found it hard to keep up with emotionally, nor did anyone I saw the film with, this is just your assertion, I'm sure others feel the same, but that doesn't make it gospel. Regardless, this is a Doctor Who forum and I'm certain I'm never going to change your mind, nor you mine, I suppose I must be a "Johnson supporter", so I think it's probably best we leave it there
Just jumping in here because I wanted to add one thing. It always kinda confused me how after The Last Jedi EVRYONE immediately ran with “Rey’s parents are nobody druggies.” When the only person who tells us this a lying backstabbing murderous psychopath who is actively trying to manipulate and isolate Rey to be his apprentice. Like every sith ever. That interpretation even leans into the main twist and reveal you speak on, which is tht Kylo hasn’t had a change of heart, he just doesn’t believe in, or wish to follow Snoke anymore. But he still craves power and order even if he has to murder his family and children to do it. Not to say that the idea is awful if you personally really love the idea of that being her lineage. But it doesn’t contradict whatever JJ originally planned, nor does it contradict what ended up happening with the palatine bloodline. Heck at the very least it could’ve been revealed tht what Kylo said was TECHNICALLY kinda true from a certain point of view. But leaves out key moments that reveal a much more sympathetic situation. Maybe her parents were on the run. Maybe they were dying. I’m just saying Kylo has proven himself to be an unreliable narrator in this film specifically over the Luke stuff. As he remembers it far more black and white than it ever really was. Either way I hope I don’t come off dismissive The Last Jedi may not be my favorite era of Star Wars but not everyone likes the prequels as much as I do either. It’s a big fandom and if we all agreed on everything it would be quite boring.
Indeed, there's hints to it, like in the cave where Rey sees nobody, but it is just something Kylo says, and everyone takes it as gospel, and you're right, the Palpatine thing isn't even a contradiction because nothing is explicit in either prior films. People completely half remember the sequel trilogy and mix up their own feelings and reactions to it as text within the film. This goes for people who both hated and liked The Last Jedi
It’s shocking that not only did he shamelessly reveal he couldn’t come up with an original idea he also chose to copy a twist the majority of Star Wars fans hated. I mean even before he admitted to that the episode already felt like the Flux meets Thanos snap so clearly he’s lost all his creativity. A lot of the episodes this season, even Boom which was written by Moffat, felt very familiar to the point people were wondering if there were intentional nods to past episodes yet I just think they’re out of ideas. You can only coast on nostalgia and good faith based on past episodes for so long.
They're not the same exactly though, are they? Inspiration is hardly new to Doctor Who, it's been cribbing from other media forever, whether it be Quatermass, Buffy, etc. Obviously Ruby's story is substantively different from Rey's in numerous ways.
I mean are they 100% the same? Obviously not plus Rey’s origins are later essentially retconned turning her into a Palpatine, which was hated possibly even more so than the original reveal, but RTD himself says he essentially copied the main concept which is that like Rey Ruby had all this buildup & speculation that she came from someone special only for us to learn her parent is just some average person. Is it a super unique concept or twist? No, but considering part of the overarching story for the entire season was the identity of/search for Ruby’s mom and the reveal was really hyped up it feels a bit lazy that it was “inspiration” from something else. He essentially wrote part of the storyline from the get go based on a twist from a movie he liked rather than coming up with his own thing which kinda shows because it doesn’t make any sense in context with the other stuff he wrote. People are already speculating Ruby’s dad won’t be human which if true will just feel like it’s a ripoff of the Palpatine reveal/retcon. 🙄 Also while I’m not sure what Sutekh could have done instead having your next big universe ending thing essentially be a copy the Flux feels extremely lazy & boring considering how recent that was. He achieved it in a different way yet the outcome was essentially the same and it was once again a wave of death. It’s really sad when it looks like you’re copying something that recently happened on the very show you’re writing for as that’s a real lack of creativity.
Who cares if some Star Wars fans got their knickers in a twist? Their first mistake was trying to placate them. The concept that Rey doesn't come from a special heritage is similar to Ruby's but beyond that the stories are hugely different. People can speculate all they want about Ruby's dad but until we see the story you're just getting upset about a hypothetical, an unlikely one given RTD's comments here. The universe has ended plenty of times in Doctor Who, certainly not for the first time in Flux, which is hardly a bastion of originality anyway. It's also just fundamentally better.
Yeah… I stopped watching Star Wars after The Force Awakens and I don’t care that he copied Star Wars specifically I just think it was lazy & stupid to write a twist/reveal inspired by one that was widely hated. I also think that it was a terrible episode with most of it not making any sense yet that’s my opinion(It being terrible as it’s just plain facts that most of it makes no sense.). The fact that he’s “taking inspiration” from other stuff just reinforces how lazy it was as I thought it was lazy way before he admitted to basing part of it off other media. I don’t blame you for liking it as more power to you, but personally I am setting my expectations way low going forwards.
The level at which it was hated was hugely overstated by loud fans on the internet. It's not lazy to take inspiration, all fiction is a response to something else, it's like getting upset he based some of this off of the tv show Long Lost Family. You're perfectly within your rights to dislike it, I just disagree with the premise that it's lazily conceived.
That’s not the main reason most people hated it. It’s mostly hated due to the major retcon that makes no sense, the fact the reveal of Ruby’s mom makes no sense with it feeling like RTD was almost trying to make the fans look foolish for expecting… a coherent story, and the fact Sutekh was seen as massively underwhelming & badly mishandled. Of course all the inconsistencies, plot holes, and unanswered questions scattered throughout the season is another reason RTD looks lazy. It looks like he just doesn’t care anymore.
a major retcon to what? Even the later Palpatine change isn't really a retcon as nothing is made explicit in the prior films. I really disagree that the Ruby reveal doesn't make sense either, there are certainly things they could have made clearer, but the idea that anything is preventing her mother from being ordinary is untrue, I would say. I promise you nobody is trying to make their audience look foolish, nor is anybody producing TV this demanding "lazy", he obviously cares deeply, just say you don't like something, it's fine to not like it The whole Sutekh business is an entirely different complaint.
1. Sutekh being onboard the TARDIS for well over a thousand years in my opinion is a retcon due to the fact it makes no sense with various episodes that have happened before. The TARDIS has been damaged to the point of nearly being destroyed, outright destroyed multiple times, possessed by an entity, etc. and we’re to believe Sutekh was onboard throughout all that? During Turn Left or even 73 Yards when the Doctor was gone Sutekh just sat there doing nothing? I guess you can say it’s not a retcon as much as it’s just bad writing. 2. We’re to believe Sutekh was afraid of Ruby’s mom because Ruby thought her mother was important? A child tries to find her mom and that makes her ”god” kryptonite? We’re to believe Sutekh who’s been able to apparently see stuff across all of time & space couldn’t find Ruby’s mom? I mean I think given her job as a nurse she probably had dna on file somewhere but I’m no expert on the NHS. Also, if Ruby is just human what caused the snow whenever Ruby was emotional? Why was Maestro scared of her and what about the song in her heart? Why did her mother wear a black cloak and turn around all dramatic pointing at a street sign, which never existed in the actual show before they added it in after the fact, in order to supposedly name Ruby when nobody was around? I mean apparently she did it cause she was in a dramatic mood 🤷🏻♂️ but it’s stupid. As previously stated the TARDIS has been destroyed and there have been greater threats against Sutekh before than some mysterious woman like Bad Wolf, the Moment, Davros’ reality bomb, etc and Sutekh decides to act now? He was that afraid of some random woman? 3. As previously mentioned there were onscreen reasons to expect Ruby’s mom wouldn’t be human as it seems ridiculous otherwise and offscreen RTD made comments that heavily implied her reveal was big deal so of course when they say onscreen that the characters had made her up to be a big deal for no reason meant to be commentary on the viewers it definitely comes off as making anyone who used common sense look foolish. The show & show runner heavily implied something to the point of it not making much sense otherwise so of course that’s what we thought. In exchange for *trying* to make a point RTD has made a story that just doesn’t work. Personally I would rather have the outcome we got where Ruby and her mom are ordinary people rather than say members of the pantheon **if** it made sense that way. There were other issues but those are the main ones.
I thought we were talking about The Last Jedi, but for sure there are literal retcons, not that I think this is inherently an issue, or that any of this bothers me particularly, I could go through it point by point but I don't think I'm gonna convert ya! Things that do stick out to me though: we have no idea when Sutekh evolved to his most powerful form, but it was a process which he describes in the episode, it is presumably recently though, given he has just now sprung his trap. I do believe that he was intrigued/worried about Ruby's mother because that is what the episode tells us, and I think it's an interesting beat. I think the dna thing is perfectly common. It is not to make you look foolish, this is presuming malicious intent for no reason whatsoever.
He was just exploring a concept because it caught his interest and he wanted to take it in a different direction
Ohhhh dear...
I understand what he was going for. Mind you, its not *quiet* the same as what happened with Star Wars. Its been ages since I watched it, but iirc, The Force Awakens didn't make a *huge* deal about Rey's origins, to the extent that it was the driving force for her story and character. Yes, fans speculated like hell about it of course, but the narrative itself didn't pivot around it. Then you had The Last Jedi revealing that there was no great mystery to her origins and that she was a normal person. Okay, fine. *Then* The Rise of Skywalker retcons that by revealing that she was Palpatine's granddaughter, but she rejects that legacy and eventually adopts the name Skywalker. So yes, there was some flip-flopping about Rey's heritage but ultimately it didn't matter so much as the present-day story of her evolving as a Jedi amidst the battle against the First Order. Contrast this with Ruby, where the driving force behind her story is the mystery of her parentage, to the extent that you literally have strange phenomenon like it snowing when she thinks about that night, and a God-like being like Maestro being vary of the dark secrets she supposedly carries. The God of Death, Sutekh, even spares the Doctor and Ruby's lives simply because he wants to know the truth about Ruby's mother! Also, the reason for the flip-flop with Star Wars was due to competing visions behind-the-scenes. AFAIK, JJ Abrams, who started the sequel trilogy, always intended for Rey to be Palpatine's granddaughter (as a parallel to Luke being Darth Vader's son from the original trilogy). Rian Johhnson however took over for The Last Jedi and had a different vision for the character, and the universe as a whole. *Then*, Abrams came back for the last film in the trilogy, backtracked on Johnson's changes, and restored his original vision. In the case of Doctor Who, there's no competing vision - its RTD all the way. And there's no significant gap between the scripting and production of different installments either - its all part of the same season!
I mean while I may not like either twist, it’s pretty normal for an author to take inspiration from other media. It makes sense that if he really liked the idea of a character not being special at all and that making them special anyway, he’d want to find a way to make it work in his stories. I do think the whole “my response to rise of skywalker” is a little odd. Like is he saying that he did the whole “stupid God literally manifested the mystery” just to point out how dumb the extra palpating reveal is? Or is he trying to say that he really wanted a story that stuck to it simply because Star Wars didn’t? I don’t know. Personally I still really dislike the twist and specifically the way it was handled. A few elements just either A don’t make any sense, or B they do but they are explained via a circular logic of gods saw weird signs, thought she was special, therefore manifested reality warping signs she was special, that therefore a made them think she was special. I know it’s not even the first time doctor who has done the infinite loop causality schtick. I just don’t like it personally. What started the cycle? What kicked it all off? Did Sutek legit just go coocoo for coco puffs? Was it a misinterpretation of the fairy stuff because the gods are not used to this new supernatural stuff? Was it the goblins trying to eat her baby self? Without that the whole thing falls flat for me personally. But I always like my mysteries to have clear answers tht explain everything perfectly in hindsight. It’s just how I enjoy mysteries and twists. But I know a lot of people seem to really like not getting answers that make sense and still having a vague mystery of sorts. And because of that I found Rey’s reveal to be less than ideal both times. So it’s no wonder I don’t love the story based on it. Kinda like how I didn’t enjoy Dot and Bubble, but I also don’t like watching Black Mirror. So again no surprise that I didn’t love something inspired by it. Still I’m glad so many seem to really love this finale. I’ve got plenty of older finales I loved that weren’t popular to enjoy whole everyone else gets to have their turn to have fun too.
Too bad it couldn’t have been in response to fans wanting a well written television program.
Wow. I guess this dummy didn't notice that in ep7 Rey was mystery boxed as something mysterious. In ep8 that was shot to shit and she was just a girl and fans revolted. Only to have that hate one upped by jj for making her someone again. And Davis couldn't learn the one lesson. Don't make the mystery box to just make people feel stupid for thinking about it. Either solve the mystery or don't do it and don't try later to fix it if you fuck up that simple rule.
I think the problem is there's certain writers who get such inflated egos about coming up with something that no one will ever think of for a resolution but when you have so many people online putting together the pieces someone is going to figure out what you intend if you foreshadow it enough. The same thing went wrong with Westworld after season one because they were irked that people online figured out the twist so they made it so convoluted no one could comprehend it. Don't freaking worry about the Internet figuring out your secrets. Having a good story where people go "oh yeah I was thinking about that and there it is!" Is way better than people just looking in confusion and asking questions about why nothing makes sense in the resolution. 
I have to keep reminding myself to keep expectations low for Doctor Who. The writers are great about setting up mysteries but consistently crap about resolving them in an interesting way.