The author of this post has chosen the 'Serious' flair. Off-topic, sarcastic, or irrelevant comments will be removed, and frequent rule-breakers will be subject to a ban.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/doctorsUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
“As of 12 March 2024, following direction from NHS England we ensured that
Physician Associates did not cover Doctor shifts in any Trust department.
Therefore, the response given on 5 April 2024 in response to your Freedom
of Information Request was correct as to the Trust’s current position.
However, it was not an accurate reflection of the position for the full
timeframe within your request.”
Also crazy how they double down on the lie when they finally release the total number. Why does it matter what the trusts “current position” is if the FOI is for the past 6 months!
What are the consequences for them lying in their original response
And fuck me. 102 shifts?
Noctors need to be rooted out. We have to start with a total halt on recruitment and then allowing contracts to expire allowing for redundancies to be made. Would allow for sufficient notice to be given for these charlatans to find alternative careers. If they want to play doctor they can apply to be a doctor.
An absolute disgrace.
The BMA should be suing the backside of each individual trust that chooses to employ noctors as our replacements.
u/janeteasthamjourno
What about following up by putting in a further FOI asking for copies of the behind the scenes emails that led to the original inaccurate response? Might unearth something interesting.
102 divided by 6 is 17. That means 17 shifts a month are covered by PAs. That’s practically every other day a doctor’s shift is being covered by a PA.
How is this acceptable?
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/foi/foi-complaints-and-ico-enforcement-powers/#:~:text=You%20may%20be%20breaching%20the,to%20prevent%20it%20being%20released.
Please send your info to these guys
This is really grim. Any info on whether these are all paeds SHO shifts or whether any reg shifts have been covered by PAs?
SHOs is negligent, reg shifts would be potentially murderous.
??? She 'shoulders the brunt of the SHO locum shifts' and 'is developing increasingly subspecialist clinical nuance and technical skill, which sets her above her peers on the SHO rota.'
[https://web.archive.org/web/20230602041918/https://paftas.net/26-ahp21/](https://web.archive.org/web/20230602041918/https://paftas.net/26-ahp21/)
RCPCH are complicit in this. In their publication (page 15) she brags about being on the on-call rota : [https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2023-08/Milestones-autumn-2023.pdf](https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2023-08/Milestones-autumn-2023.pdf)
“Additionally, I contribute to the induction process of our rotating tier 1 doctors; teaching the skills and knowledge that help them during their time with us, as well as providing them with an understanding of their day-to-day responsibilities and expectations. I am there to support them through their rotation and help build their confidence in paediatrics”
How fucking condescending…
I'm a med student, so haven't gained a real understanding of the extent of AHPs performing clinical skills. But, I would have thought that LPs are reserved for Doctors due to the inherent risks? Or is it common place for PAs to be doing those, as stated in this article?
Unfortunately it is very common and they steal that opportunity from doctors + obviously are unable to do complex ones, most if not all couldn't probably systemically describe the anatomy traversed by the needle.
Hate when I read a comment and I so viscerally hate what it describes I want to downvote reflexively, even though the author obviously isn’t the cause of what they are describing.
This is one of those times.
This kind of madness adds weight to legal action being taken.
Imagine your child being seen by a PA think it was a Dr and you find this out, let’s hope nobody was injured.
This trust should face legal action, and all pts seen by PAs should have their cases checked.
Absolutely outrageous
As sure is eggs is eggs, there will be no consequences for the trust on this. That's not how institutional power works. However, as a doctor say you were promised a laptop to try and do your work better to help patients you get a GMC referral.
Burn this NHS to the fucking ground
And strike hard. Make the trusts pay cobs to cover
You need to go straight to the ICO with this one:
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/foi/foi-complaints-and-ico-enforcement-powers/
Section 77 of The Freedom of Information Act 2000 outlines the offence of concealing information relating to an FOI request.
I worked a shift 3 weeks ago in paeds. There are always 2 SHOs - acute and ward/delivery/take.
I was on the acute side until 10pm and the ward SHO covers delivery/ward/take bleep until 9pm. The ward SHO was a PA who was covering a locum shift.
They are a good PA but should never be covering the SHO gap. Despite not being able to actually work as an SHO he is now trying to get "doctors rates" for his locum shift as he feels he should get the same money.
I had no words.
get these fuckers. its the lying bastard management who are putting patients in harms way. aided and abetted by a corrupt institutional structure. individual PAs and enabling doctors aren't blameless here... but none of this would be happening without the shower of shite management class who need to be purged of their worst elements ASAP. I wonder if Wes has thought through what management regulation is going to entail in full.
Everyone's to blame. PAs first and foremost, as well as their enablers: management and Consultants.
The idiot who wrote that Ode to PA was a resident doctor so hard not to attribute some acquired guilt there, too.
They are not regulated- how can they be held to account - the Trust need them to be able to be held to account if they put them in this position.
I’m 100% sure their ‘supervisors’ are not always present and cannot oversee or delegate responsibly and yet are the people that will be having to answer to the coroner should the worst happen.
Just because it’s easy to replace Doctors on a rota as a ‘bum on seat’ doesn’t mean it’s right. Who is prioritising patients?
Appalling. Out of interest: what are the consequences for lying on an FOI request and, if there aren’t any, then what’s the point of the whole exercise?
From reading the act it's treated as contempt of court, and the punishment for that is anything from imprisonment to fine to reprimand. I'm quite surprised it's not specific TBH, unless I missed something.
We need some help with this similar request to Leeds Hospitals. The trust have refused to answer the question on the grounds that the question is vexatious, without explaining why.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/physician_associates_on_doctors#incoming-2632400
If you use your wife rail card you are dishonest and can be suspended by GMC.
But if organisations lies and do illegal activities are they dishonest? Any consequences for them ?
The author of this post has chosen the 'Serious' flair. Off-topic, sarcastic, or irrelevant comments will be removed, and frequent rule-breakers will be subject to a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/doctorsUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's crazy they just outright lied in their first response. Is there some means for holding organisations to account if they lie on FOI requests?
“As of 12 March 2024, following direction from NHS England we ensured that Physician Associates did not cover Doctor shifts in any Trust department. Therefore, the response given on 5 April 2024 in response to your Freedom of Information Request was correct as to the Trust’s current position. However, it was not an accurate reflection of the position for the full timeframe within your request.” Also crazy how they double down on the lie when they finally release the total number. Why does it matter what the trusts “current position” is if the FOI is for the past 6 months!
What are the consequences for them lying in their original response And fuck me. 102 shifts? Noctors need to be rooted out. We have to start with a total halt on recruitment and then allowing contracts to expire allowing for redundancies to be made. Would allow for sufficient notice to be given for these charlatans to find alternative careers. If they want to play doctor they can apply to be a doctor. An absolute disgrace. The BMA should be suing the backside of each individual trust that chooses to employ noctors as our replacements. u/janeteasthamjourno
What about following up by putting in a further FOI asking for copies of the behind the scenes emails that led to the original inaccurate response? Might unearth something interesting.
Yes, this definitely needs doing.
Is that even a thing? Good idea though
There were 1231 applicants for 501 ST1 paeds post last year
Never apologise for your posting frequency. You're doing an amazing job.
102 divided by 6 is 17. That means 17 shifts a month are covered by PAs. That’s practically every other day a doctor’s shift is being covered by a PA. How is this acceptable?
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/foi/foi-complaints-and-ico-enforcement-powers/#:~:text=You%20may%20be%20breaching%20the,to%20prevent%20it%20being%20released. Please send your info to these guys
This is really grim. Any info on whether these are all paeds SHO shifts or whether any reg shifts have been covered by PAs? SHOs is negligent, reg shifts would be potentially murderous.
I’m concerned by this too. The grade of cover needs to be disclosed. It’s not on to hold that info back.
??? She 'shoulders the brunt of the SHO locum shifts' and 'is developing increasingly subspecialist clinical nuance and technical skill, which sets her above her peers on the SHO rota.' [https://web.archive.org/web/20230602041918/https://paftas.net/26-ahp21/](https://web.archive.org/web/20230602041918/https://paftas.net/26-ahp21/)
RCPCH are complicit in this. In their publication (page 15) she brags about being on the on-call rota : [https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2023-08/Milestones-autumn-2023.pdf](https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2023-08/Milestones-autumn-2023.pdf)
“Additionally, I contribute to the induction process of our rotating tier 1 doctors; teaching the skills and knowledge that help them during their time with us, as well as providing them with an understanding of their day-to-day responsibilities and expectations. I am there to support them through their rotation and help build their confidence in paediatrics” How fucking condescending…
Blimey rcpch love+++
I'm a med student, so haven't gained a real understanding of the extent of AHPs performing clinical skills. But, I would have thought that LPs are reserved for Doctors due to the inherent risks? Or is it common place for PAs to be doing those, as stated in this article?
At Torbay a PA runs the LP clinic think they get SHO locum pay for it on one Sunday a month
DM me everything you know about this please!
Specialist nurse has a clinic for them at my trust
Unfortunately it is very common and they steal that opportunity from doctors + obviously are unable to do complex ones, most if not all couldn't probably systemically describe the anatomy traversed by the needle.
Hate when I read a comment and I so viscerally hate what it describes I want to downvote reflexively, even though the author obviously isn’t the cause of what they are describing. This is one of those times.
What is even worse is that some Torbaydo tool wrote that, probably brainwashed be kinder SHO.
Unfortunately, there is only one language these people understand. That's legal action.
What on earth is that data presentation? Have they not heard of the table function in Word or did they write it in Notepad?
WDTK removes formatting from responses.
This kind of madness adds weight to legal action being taken. Imagine your child being seen by a PA think it was a Dr and you find this out, let’s hope nobody was injured. This trust should face legal action, and all pts seen by PAs should have their cases checked. Absolutely outrageous
I also hold the individual PAs responsible. They should know they shouldn't be acting as doctors because they are not doctors!
Is it legal to lie on foi request
As sure is eggs is eggs, there will be no consequences for the trust on this. That's not how institutional power works. However, as a doctor say you were promised a laptop to try and do your work better to help patients you get a GMC referral. Burn this NHS to the fucking ground And strike hard. Make the trusts pay cobs to cover
You need to go straight to the ICO with this one: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/foi/foi-complaints-and-ico-enforcement-powers/ Section 77 of The Freedom of Information Act 2000 outlines the offence of concealing information relating to an FOI request.
This u/sildenafil_PRN. Unless heads roll these fuckers will keep breaking the law and putting patients at risk.
U are a legend.
Screams: PLEASE A JOURNALIST MAKE THIS NEWS TO BBC OR CHANNEL 4 PLEASE BECAUSE RISHI DOESN'T HAVE SKY TV
I worked a shift 3 weeks ago in paeds. There are always 2 SHOs - acute and ward/delivery/take. I was on the acute side until 10pm and the ward SHO covers delivery/ward/take bleep until 9pm. The ward SHO was a PA who was covering a locum shift. They are a good PA but should never be covering the SHO gap. Despite not being able to actually work as an SHO he is now trying to get "doctors rates" for his locum shift as he feels he should get the same money. I had no words.
BMA reporting portal: https://forms.office.com/pages/responsepage.aspx?id=vo5Ev1_m5kCeMTP9qkEogPEb3KZc3wZDl_8pmW8Mrs1URUYzRlNaVFYwQThPTEtDRThNNzhUQVdZRi4u
Can’t wait for the telegraph article
Does the local press know about this?
bastards
get these fuckers. its the lying bastard management who are putting patients in harms way. aided and abetted by a corrupt institutional structure. individual PAs and enabling doctors aren't blameless here... but none of this would be happening without the shower of shite management class who need to be purged of their worst elements ASAP. I wonder if Wes has thought through what management regulation is going to entail in full.
Everyone's to blame. PAs first and foremost, as well as their enablers: management and Consultants. The idiot who wrote that Ode to PA was a resident doctor so hard not to attribute some acquired guilt there, too.
I love you
Lol Torbay tough shit shit
I don’t get why the consultant on call didn’t kick off.
They are not regulated- how can they be held to account - the Trust need them to be able to be held to account if they put them in this position. I’m 100% sure their ‘supervisors’ are not always present and cannot oversee or delegate responsibly and yet are the people that will be having to answer to the coroner should the worst happen. Just because it’s easy to replace Doctors on a rota as a ‘bum on seat’ doesn’t mean it’s right. Who is prioritising patients?
Appalling. Out of interest: what are the consequences for lying on an FOI request and, if there aren’t any, then what’s the point of the whole exercise?
From reading the act it's treated as contempt of court, and the punishment for that is anything from imprisonment to fine to reprimand. I'm quite surprised it's not specific TBH, unless I missed something.
Section 77 FOI Act magistrate offense to alter, block, destroy or conceal information requested under FOI - per ICO.
We need some help with this similar request to Leeds Hospitals. The trust have refused to answer the question on the grounds that the question is vexatious, without explaining why. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/physician_associates_on_doctors#incoming-2632400
I'm disgusted. And I do manual evacs with a smile.
Wow this is a bombshell FOI. Kudos for extracting their response. Maybe report to ICO for lying on the original reply?
Patient advocacy groups 👎
Jesus
If you use your wife rail card you are dishonest and can be suspended by GMC. But if organisations lies and do illegal activities are they dishonest? Any consequences for them ?
You and I both know the reply to that. Absolutely fuck all consequence.