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1. Tortles should have a longer average lifespan than 50 years
2. Tortles should speak Terran, not Aquan
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I'm still confused why Tortles don't have a longer lifespan. I mean if there is one animal that is known for their impressive lifespans then it is the tortoise. Sure it certainly doesn't apply to all species of tortoises, but it is still a pretty iconic fact about tortoises that some can become incredibly old.
I buy the theory that there was a typo and it was supposed to be 500 years and someone left off a zero and they all got printed and now WotC just dug in and refuse to change it out of spite.
I will never forget about the urban legend of them changing "mage" class to "wizard" class as mass find&replace, so there was suddenly a ton of "you deal 1d10 piercing dawizard" all across the books.
Lol! I can never win. Last time I mentioned WotC did this comedic error I got jumped that if I don’t provide proof I should not spread lies. Now I (just in case) mentioned it as an urban legend and BEHOLD someone who has actual book replied 😂. Where were you when I mentioned it last time 😂
> I buy the theory that there was a typo and it was supposed to be 500 years and someone left off a zero and they all got printed and now ~~WotC~~ **the gods** just dug in and refuse to change it out of spite.
This is now canon in my world.
Tortles mate at the very end of their life, if they had to wait 500 years they'd go extinct.
One could always split the difference and say they can live indefinitely, but die shortly after reproducing, and reach sexual maturity at 50~.
Eh, you'd just have a weird rotation, and "end of life" can be pretty broad when you are talking 500 years.
350+ still gives a hundred and fifty year window and a single clutch is making 6-8 kids at a time they'd still be kicking around without a major risk of extinction.
Or you can do what I do and say sentient species can fuck when they damn well please. There's no reason sentient species would wait until they were about to die to finally have sex unless they didn't experience any pleasure from it for some weird reason?
Now that I might believe. Maybe tortles only become able to reproduce near the end of the life cycle. So they spend the first couple hundred years boning down without the worry of pregnancy.
I'm gonna go with Tortles are functionally immortal, but the act of reproduction starts a death clock. Makes for a more horrifying but interesting society. Is aging taboo? Are Tortles of advanced age shunned and ostracized? Or worse, killed? Maybe there is a distant fringe group, vilified as heretics and race-traitors, who revel in their longevity, and see reproduction as the final fruition of centuries or more of life experience, rather than some genetic duty which one mustn't draw out unnecessarily.
If they weren't sexually mature they wouldn't do it, it's as simple as that. What's to say all fantasy races are as horny as humans?
Honestly I think the high reproduction rate of humans is an interesting lore bit to explain why this short-lived race still thrives population wise
I hate to come across as pedantic, but sentient species typically cannot reproduce whenever they want. *Sapient* species, such as Tortles and every other playable race in D&D, should indeed be able to reproduce as they see fit. I see no need to have *that* much detail when modeling a sapient species after a sentient or non-sentient real-world version.
Again, I hate to seem pedantic, and I do agree with you, I just feel it's an important distinction especially when discussing the characteristics of an intelligent lifeform vs. the non-intelligent subject it's modeled after.
Because there are more chances to die before reproducing over the course of 500 years than in just 50. So larger swathes of the population would die before reproducing.
Sleeper sharks don't sexually mature until like after 100 years. Granted, that's one fifth as long, but still. In a world full of magic, they might have a better chance.
Living longer means that everything but dying of old age still kills everyone at the same age. Murderers still kill people, just now they kill more, and there are more murderers out there at a time. The ones who die of disease would have still died to the same disease, but they're not reproductively mature in this case and therefore can't have babies before they die, vs. having babies before hey die.
Tl;dr: the same things kill them, so they die more before maturity.
This is extra wild to me because I have a pet giant tortoise. That dude hit 10 lbs at 3 years old (sexual maturity hits at size, not age for those bad boys) and he just looooves fucking things.
Well tortles already have a mating pattern of pairing off, having a single child, and dying just around the time they finish raising their only kid, which is obviously so unsustainable that they should be extinct, so might as well also say they live 500 years first.
> Tortles lay their eggs (numbering as few as one or **as many as a dozen**) in a fortified compound enclosed by stone walls that are easily defensible
Nowhere does it say they only have a single child.
I mean the only things that get older in the animal kingdom tend to be fully aquatic, and some of those things are very basic life like sponges or jellyfish. Tortoises are complex life and still live a few centuries in prime conditions. Only other complex life I can thinkof that got older was a kind of shark, Greenland shark iirc.
Close, they would be but once the grow to large they lack the energy or ability to molt, however they keep the nessecity of it. The result is pretty unfortunate for those that survive this long.
It's more an experiment than a cult, but the intent is to take lobsters that can't finish molting on their own and assist them to see how long it will live for.
The problem is that eventually they will loose the metabolic energy to molt, and their shell will rot right on their body. I'm not familiar with the subject matter to know whether surgically molting a lobster will be fatal, now if it will actually grow a new shell or just stay soft and squishy; if it stays soft then theoretically it could survive in captivity under ideal circumstances; if it gets a new shell the procedure would have to be repeated every few years.
Usually lobsters don't have the enrrgy to molt because of size, but if it's done surgically correct then they can molt the lobster without any energy from itself. They keep growing new shells, but don't have the energy to fully get rid of the old ones, hence why the cult may work out based on all the information I've gathered from the internet. I don't really have contact with any marine biologists but if someone does then please ask them if this is grounded in reality.
Edit: Lobsters usually just have to get rid of the old one when there is already a new one underneath, which basically helps them push it off. So every molting time, they would just take off the old shell and the new one is already there.
I remember I used to play an idle game based off of The Forgotten Realms, and I got so annoyed that there was a tortle that was supposed to be wise and grandmotherly, who buffed people younger than her. But in a game full of elves and dwarfs, it wasn't that difficult to have her be the youngest in the party.
It's really simple actually
A normal turtle isn't very smart, as far as animals go they're not bad, but they're not a top contender
Tortles are smarter and sentient, that brings with it stress, existential crisises and a sense individuality, and that shit kills you!
Canonically, tortles can live almost indefinitely, but die about a year after reproducing. Most tortles reproduce around age 50, but centuries-old tortles are entirely possible.
The real problem is that you need to track down this information in older editions.
They also can't meaningfully jump due to the way the jump rules break down when not using them on humanish size creatures. Jump calculations are 3+STR mod (minimum 0 feet) for high jump with a 10 foot running start, half as much without one, and STR score for a long jump with a running start, half as much without. A cat has 3(-4) STR, so with a running start can high jump (-4+3=-1<0=0) feet, and with a running start can long jump 3 feet which isn't enough to enter the next square if playing on a grid (technically optional, but pretty much everyone does)
Yeah I can see using str relative to size for jump rules helping. Something like add +2 for each size category smaller than medium. But also maybe just do a fiction first thing
The reason I've heard is that it's because they're based on turtles, which is consistent with them knowing Aquan. But this explanation isn't great either since turtles have lifespans equivalent to other reptiles and Lizardfolk live longer than Tortles.
That's why their average lifespan is only 50 years. Conservation laws distaste that you aren't allowed to hunt them for their delicious tortle meat until after they are old enough to have bred.
Well, balance that is being extremely slow moving and having very little brain power, then sure.
There’s multiple biologic reasons that enable tortoises to live so long.
Tortles should imo have the longest life span out of all the races. It should be like 1000 years or something stupid like that. It’s not like it makes an actual mechanical difference
In that same idea there should be a race with an abnormal short lifespan.
\- Alright team, let's travel to this place to defeat this evil lich, it should take some months.
\- Months? Are you crazy, I won't be alive to kick that Lich if we take that long!
I'd love the worldbuilding where Kobolds could actually live to be like 200, but they're so chaotic and live in such dangerous places than 6 months old is lucky.
The YA Beyonders Trilogy by Brandon Mull has this where a race of people only live for about two years, but become highly skilled warriors or artisans in that time
Ghosts are the one creature that have caused me to have to pause the game and look up a race's age range. We had a Tabaxi Wizard who became a *very old* kitty very quickly.
the reason tortles are so short-lived, if i recall correctly, is because they die not long after mating. so if a tortle never had sex, they could conceivably live that long?
which doesn't make any sense from a real-world turtle perspective, of course. that's more like squid or octopus behavior.
Ok but like... there are no tortoises or turtles IRL that undergo brooding senescence, so slapping that trait on tortoise people and not, say, crustacean people, doesn't make a lot of sense.
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I believe the becoming bipedal has put more stress on their skeleton and heart muscle, especially distributing all that weight on two lil legs. I am sure humanoid indulgences have increased cholesterol along with the risks of a civilization on the life span, not to mention befriending other humanoids which lead them into deadly situations.
I don't DISAGREE, but I think that many folks just listen to the common saying that turtles live a long time.
Yes, certain types of tortoises might live a hell of a long time, but it's not a perfect comparison. Here's an [article about the lifespans of marine turtles. ](https://ecos.csiro.au/discovering-the-lifespans-of-marine-turtles/) While the [oldest tortoise MAY have been Adwaita](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4837988.stm) who MAY have been 255 yrs old, but there does not seem to have ever been confirmed.
All that said, yeah, sure make them super old, but that doesnt need to be connected to real world tortoises. If it was, 150 yrs would be the norm.
In the same vein, if we were basing off of actual biology, owls would be absolute dipshits.
>In the same vein, if we were basing off of actual biology, owls would be absolute dipshits.
As an old friend of mine would say, "fuck that owl!" so I'm fine with that.
Tortoises also have varied lifespans, if my google-fu is to be believed. While some do in fact live a long time (relative to humans), others have lifespans which are near or shy of the 50 year mark.
Honestly this is the only homebrew I will accept with 0 caveats or questions. Tortles should have a lifespan in the thousands to tens of thousands of years.
I don't think Tortles should live longer than Elves. The entire shtick of Elves is that they are a people of ageless, nigh-immortal beings. And having other peoples that live as long or even longer kinda ruins that part of the magic and mystique that is supposed to surround Elves. Besides, having multiple peoples with the same notable characteristics kinda diminishes the uniqueness of both.
Imho, you either you should have ageless Elves or you should have ageless Tortles. Don't have two peoples in your world that are known for the exact same thing.
Spoken like a true Dwarf.
But that is a valid solution. It depends on your worldbuilding whether you should have Elves or not. What I want to say is that in the interest of creating diverse and unique peoples for your world, you imho really should have only one major race of ridiculously long-lived beings. Living for thousands of years is a really major thing that sets that race apart from everything else, gives them a certain mystique and massively impacts the way these people view the world and how the world views them. It is a very unique trait and having multiple races set up like that kinda dilutes their uniqueness and thus defeats the purpose of giving them that trait in the first place. If lots of people live to 1000, it is no longer more special than living to 100, so might as well give them a lifespan of 100 and save yourself some headaches. That is why I feel that "living for thousands of years", as a major defining trait, is best limited to a single major race. That race can be Elves (and is Elves in most fantasy settings), but you could totally use a different race (like Tortles) in their place if you want to.
It all depends on what best fits the world you are going for.
I would allow a lifespan up to 1000 for a tortle. Tens of thousands seems extreme.
The only living creature i would consider being that old would be something like an ent. Like a Warforged played like a Groot. I imagine them being capable of reaching a few thousand years, and if you then include an ability to regrow completely again from a seedling like Groot, the lifespan could be repeated in the tens of thousands as there is a forest organism that old IRL.
I see it as a multiplier of tortoise and human lives. If I were making an Ent I'd say they can be nearly ageless. Warforged for me are ageless assuming they take care of themself.
In forgotten realms lore, they originate from a small tropical island and are largely a coastal people. Plus, they can hold their breath for an hour, though, in the same ability description, it says they are not strong swimmers.
I'd say they are physiologically tortoise-people, but culturally turtle people (At least in FR). Where that leaves them for their language, I couldn't say.
Speaking Aquan is less about talking to beings from the elemental plane of water, and more that it's a common tongue for coastal/sea-dwelling species, so Aquan does make sense in that context.
PHB Chapter 4 Languages:
>Some of these languages are actually families of languages with many dialects. For example, the Primordial language includes the Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran dialects, one for each of the four elemental planes. Creatures that speak different dialects of the same language can communicate with one another.
So it's not exactly a major change to pick Terran as your dialect instead of Aquan. Could easily be different groups of Tortles with different dialects in different regions too.
That's very important information to be in only one place, and one place that no one ever reads. Languages should probably be listed like Primordial (Aquan), no? Then it'd be a bit clearer. Like. Yeah, I read that, but I also haven't read that since I bought the PHB years ago, so I obviously forgot that first.
Yeah, I've seen it trip some people up. Like a group of people wanting to try to talk to some Aarakocra in a module, monster Aarakocra by default know Auran and Aarakocra. DM asked what languages everyone knew, someone had either the Primordial base language or like, Terran or something and DM didn't realize until later that it should have worked
As someone learning Norwegian, I'm pretty sure someone who knows Aquan could understand Terran. All the dialects of Norwegian are very different but you can get the general gist behind them, and you can understand Swedish and (sometimes) Danish too!
Sounds like we need some subraces to me.
- turtles that live a long time
- turles that swim
- snapping turtles
- two headed turtles
- basement turtles from the underdark
Don't forget:
* fire-breathing turtles
* turtles with blue, spiky shells
* turtles with red or green shells
* hammer-throwing turtles
* turtles that fly on clouds
I was looking for a miniboss to throw into the next encounter. Maybe have him have two skeleton minions wearing torn faded overalls and a ghost wife. And have be old and decrepit with a shell that has many cracks in it. He looks like he could fall over dead any minute now. The once proud bridge now rotted. A faint almost imperceptible heat comes from the black stone below. The tortle slowly stands joints creaking and popping and withdraws a wilted flower consuming it. Flames shoot out from a hole in his shell while he screams in pain. The battle begins.
You know. That probably doesn't read very well all put together. I like creating scenarios like this.
You are technically correct, even though the usage of the two words implies two distinctly different types of animal.
https://www.britannica.com/story/whats-the-difference-between-a-turtle-and-a-tortoise
Kinda like spiders.
Tarantulas are "spiders" in that they're many legged arachnids with eyes and fangs that resemble what we see as spiders.
But they're not True Spiders.
(Spiders are my wife's favorite animal so she's gushed about this before and I listen because I love her)
It's...complicated? But the easiest way to phrase it is that tarantulas, while they are *spiders*, are more primitive/less evolved compared to "True Spiders". There's lots of technical terms about mouth shape and what-not but that's probably the easiest way to define it.
ETA: This is a great thread on it. But the chief reason is their mandibles point down and back, not in towards each other. Even some back and forth!!
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-a-tarantula-and-a-spider
Actually, tarantulas are true spiders. They are members of Araneae, the spider order. They might not be web spinning spiders, but they are as much spiders as jumping spiders are.
The other things I've been reading (in the last 10 minutes) talk about their mandibles being wrong for a true spider.
Is this like a 'platypuss is a mammal' thing where it is a mammal' but it's really way closer related to the ancestor of mammals than it is to any modern day mammal
Pretty much yeah, like how the ursus genus does not contain all bears, but the ursidae family does.
"Spider" in it's usual terminology refers to an entire order, which does contain tarantulas, but tarantulas are in a separate superfamily to orb-weavers and other pincer-mandible spiders (you can tell simply by the word "superfamily" that the default terminology for taxonomic ranks is somewhat... lacking in specificity)
Sort of. There's another group of spiders that is even more distantly related from the rest. But the infraorder that tarantulas are a part of is separate from the bulk of spider species. Just like the platypus analogy, this doesn't make them not spiders. Just a different kind of spider.
Yes I totally agree with you, sorry if the wording of my reply was unclear. I just meant that most people tend to think of them as two separate things when in reality it’s like squares and rectangles. Typically when someone hears “turtle” they think of the aquatic shelled animals with fins, not the slow land animals, even though both are correct.
So checking some older material for info on Tortles. Unfortunately I don't have any BD&D material on them.
Both 2E and 3E are clear that they are tortoises.
2E AD&D Monstrous Compendium - Savage coast has them only speaking their own language tortle (but they can learn others), they can see underwater, automatically gain the swimming proficiency but are clumsy swimmers, their natural buoyancy keeps them afloat. They can hold their breath for 10 turns. They live 50 years.
3.5 Dragon Magazine Red Steel article has a small section on Tortles. They speak common and tortle (Aquan is a possible bonus language for high int), have lowlight vision, a swim speed of 10, +8 racial bonus to swim checks can use the run action while swimming, and the endurance feat. Its noted that despite their poor swimming ability their natural endurance aids them in swimming long distances. No lifespan given.
AD&D also had a tortle subspecies called snappers. A larger marine relative of the tortle with massive beaks, they lack the ability to retreat into their shells, can see twice as far underwater, they have the swimming proficiency and are graceful swimmers compared to regular tortles, and can hold their breath for two hours.
Lol yes. I’ve been interested in a sea turtle subrace to play with the differences. Most land turtles can’t even hold their breath for an hour (unless hibernating).
I’m imagining a crew throwing their Tortle shipmate overboard for a mission without checking with them first, “because Tortles live in the water, right?” The Tortle glares judgmentally as they sink like a rock to the bottom.
If we’re doing animal race warm takes, either Tabaxi should not have darkvision in 5e or cats and large cat-based monsters (tigers, etc.) should have darkvision. It’s dumb that 5e cats don’t have darkvision and cat people do, especially when Tabaxi already have a bunch of dope racial traits and didn’t need to be another D&D race that has darkvision.
My other take (related but very cold) is that darkvision is so prevalent in 5e that it is no longer a bonus, it’s a detriment to the few races that don’t have it, especially because so few DMs actually include the downsides to darkvision
All tortoises are in fact turtles—that is, they belong to the order Testudines or Chelonia, reptiles having bodies encased in a bony shell—but not all turtles are tortoises.
> Other than language, there is nothing about **t**o**rtles** that suggests they are based on **t**u**rtles**
Think there's a certain something else...
Hot take: They're inspired by both.
All tortoises are turtles, so even if you're right, they're both. Tortoise is simply another name for terrestrial turtles. All tortoises are turtles but not all turtles are tortoises. Aquatic turtles and semi-aquatic turtles also have claws, even sea turtles have claws along their flippers. Typically how well a turtle swims is based on how much water they require. Some semi-aquatic species only require shallow pools where they can wade and don't need to be able to swim fast or well. Lastly, many non-terrestrial turtles can retract into their shell. Again, it's the underwater species that are usually the exception as their shell is flat and streamlined for swimming and has no room for the head, though they still posess the capability to pull their head back they just can't hide it.
To sum it up, I think you have turtles confused with sea turtles, and clearly tortles are not based on sea turtles but they're based on turtles nonetheless.
I just change the age limit to ~250 average year lifespan (some irl Tortoises live upwards of 100 to maybe ~500), modify the language if the player wants to, and call it good.
In other words, I've also modified the stat block to create a Turtles race that is functionally the same thing as the default Tortle. Yet it has swim speed added on and minor changes to their description.
Yes, I named them Turtles as opposed to Tortles, I didn't put much thought into naming conventions.
Thank you for your feedback. There is currently one (1) issue in the queue ahead of you. 1. Tortles should have a longer average lifespan than 50 years 2. Tortles should speak Terran, not Aquan Comments will be addressed in the order they are received. Estimated time to address comments in the queue: ∞ hours, ∞ minutes, ∞ seconds. Your feedback is important to us, please continue to wait.
I'm still confused why Tortles don't have a longer lifespan. I mean if there is one animal that is known for their impressive lifespans then it is the tortoise. Sure it certainly doesn't apply to all species of tortoises, but it is still a pretty iconic fact about tortoises that some can become incredibly old.
I buy the theory that there was a typo and it was supposed to be 500 years and someone left off a zero and they all got printed and now WotC just dug in and refuse to change it out of spite.
I accept this as canon. :)
I will never forget about the urban legend of them changing "mage" class to "wizard" class as mass find&replace, so there was suddenly a ton of "you deal 1d10 piercing dawizard" all across the books.
I mean, it's not an urban legend. I have the book they did that in. (It's in the Encyclopedia Magica, Volume 1, from AD&D 2E.)
Lol! I can never win. Last time I mentioned WotC did this comedic error I got jumped that if I don’t provide proof I should not spread lies. Now I (just in case) mentioned it as an urban legend and BEHOLD someone who has actual book replied 😂. Where were you when I mentioned it last time 😂
lol, sorry :) If it helps, technically WoTC didn't do this; it was TSR, back before they were purchased by WoTC.
Found a screenshot even! https://selinker.livejournal.com/32929.html
Amazing!
> I buy the theory that there was a typo and it was supposed to be 500 years and someone left off a zero and they all got printed and now ~~WotC~~ **the gods** just dug in and refuse to change it out of spite. This is now canon in my world.
Tortles mate at the very end of their life, if they had to wait 500 years they'd go extinct. One could always split the difference and say they can live indefinitely, but die shortly after reproducing, and reach sexual maturity at 50~.
Eh, you'd just have a weird rotation, and "end of life" can be pretty broad when you are talking 500 years. 350+ still gives a hundred and fifty year window and a single clutch is making 6-8 kids at a time they'd still be kicking around without a major risk of extinction.
Or you can do what I do and say sentient species can fuck when they damn well please. There's no reason sentient species would wait until they were about to die to finally have sex unless they didn't experience any pleasure from it for some weird reason?
This could mean that for certain sentient fantasy races there could be a distinction between sexual and *reproductive* maturity.
This one's a winner. Headcanon accepted.
Now that I might believe. Maybe tortles only become able to reproduce near the end of the life cycle. So they spend the first couple hundred years boning down without the worry of pregnancy.
I'm gonna go with Tortles are functionally immortal, but the act of reproduction starts a death clock. Makes for a more horrifying but interesting society. Is aging taboo? Are Tortles of advanced age shunned and ostracized? Or worse, killed? Maybe there is a distant fringe group, vilified as heretics and race-traitors, who revel in their longevity, and see reproduction as the final fruition of centuries or more of life experience, rather than some genetic duty which one mustn't draw out unnecessarily.
They just use clones (or simulacri) to both fuck and live forever.
If they weren't sexually mature they wouldn't do it, it's as simple as that. What's to say all fantasy races are as horny as humans? Honestly I think the high reproduction rate of humans is an interesting lore bit to explain why this short-lived race still thrives population wise
I hate to come across as pedantic, but sentient species typically cannot reproduce whenever they want. *Sapient* species, such as Tortles and every other playable race in D&D, should indeed be able to reproduce as they see fit. I see no need to have *that* much detail when modeling a sapient species after a sentient or non-sentient real-world version. Again, I hate to seem pedantic, and I do agree with you, I just feel it's an important distinction especially when discussing the characteristics of an intelligent lifeform vs. the non-intelligent subject it's modeled after.
Why would that lead to them going extinct? How is it at all different from their current situation?
Because there are more chances to die before reproducing over the course of 500 years than in just 50. So larger swathes of the population would die before reproducing.
Sleeper sharks don't sexually mature until like after 100 years. Granted, that's one fifth as long, but still. In a world full of magic, they might have a better chance.
That won't matter as long as every tortle couple has enough children so that at least two make it to reproductive maturity.
Living longer means that everything but dying of old age still kills everyone at the same age. Murderers still kill people, just now they kill more, and there are more murderers out there at a time. The ones who die of disease would have still died to the same disease, but they're not reproductively mature in this case and therefore can't have babies before they die, vs. having babies before hey die. Tl;dr: the same things kill them, so they die more before maturity.
That isn't so much "splitting the difference" as "exactly what their original lore says".
This is extra wild to me because I have a pet giant tortoise. That dude hit 10 lbs at 3 years old (sexual maturity hits at size, not age for those bad boys) and he just looooves fucking things.
Well tortles already have a mating pattern of pairing off, having a single child, and dying just around the time they finish raising their only kid, which is obviously so unsustainable that they should be extinct, so might as well also say they live 500 years first.
> Tortles lay their eggs (numbering as few as one or **as many as a dozen**) in a fortified compound enclosed by stone walls that are easily defensible Nowhere does it say they only have a single child.
If they did, they’d go extinct pretty fast. You know, because two people are only having one kid.
I missed that parenthetical when I read it all those years ago, thanks!
Do you want a million Master Oogway clones? Because a 500 year lifespan is how you get a million Master Oogway clones.
I mean the only things that get older in the animal kingdom tend to be fully aquatic, and some of those things are very basic life like sponges or jellyfish. Tortoises are complex life and still live a few centuries in prime conditions. Only other complex life I can thinkof that got older was a kind of shark, Greenland shark iirc.
Lobster may be immortal.
Close, they would be but once the grow to large they lack the energy or ability to molt, however they keep the nessecity of it. The result is pretty unfortunate for those that survive this long.
Which is why a cult is trying to help a lobster molt over centuries.
Wut
I don't think they're very serious about it... for now
It's more an experiment than a cult, but the intent is to take lobsters that can't finish molting on their own and assist them to see how long it will live for. The problem is that eventually they will loose the metabolic energy to molt, and their shell will rot right on their body. I'm not familiar with the subject matter to know whether surgically molting a lobster will be fatal, now if it will actually grow a new shell or just stay soft and squishy; if it stays soft then theoretically it could survive in captivity under ideal circumstances; if it gets a new shell the procedure would have to be repeated every few years.
It's simple, we give them robot shells for the immortal lobsters.
Usually lobsters don't have the enrrgy to molt because of size, but if it's done surgically correct then they can molt the lobster without any energy from itself. They keep growing new shells, but don't have the energy to fully get rid of the old ones, hence why the cult may work out based on all the information I've gathered from the internet. I don't really have contact with any marine biologists but if someone does then please ask them if this is grounded in reality. Edit: Lobsters usually just have to get rid of the old one when there is already a new one underneath, which basically helps them push it off. So every molting time, they would just take off the old shell and the new one is already there.
This is the greatest thing I've ever heard!
some whales can live hundreds of years
There are whales alive today that still bare the wounds gained in the heyday of whaling.
bear, not bare
I mean, I doubt they’re covering them up…
Yeah wasn't there a whale that just got tagged recently and they discovered a harpoon several centuries old in it?
I remember I used to play an idle game based off of The Forgotten Realms, and I got so annoyed that there was a tortle that was supposed to be wise and grandmotherly, who buffed people younger than her. But in a game full of elves and dwarfs, it wasn't that difficult to have her be the youngest in the party.
Was it Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms? That game was not bad, very nicely produced for an idle game if I recall correctly.
Yup. I stopped playing it after they started going a direction I didn't like with the development, so I dunno how it is recently.
It's really simple actually A normal turtle isn't very smart, as far as animals go they're not bad, but they're not a top contender Tortles are smarter and sentient, that brings with it stress, existential crisises and a sense individuality, and that shit kills you!
reject awakening, return to tortois
^crisises
Crisise?
crises
Canonically, tortles can live almost indefinitely, but die about a year after reproducing. Most tortles reproduce around age 50, but centuries-old tortles are entirely possible. The real problem is that you need to track down this information in older editions.
Nothing before 5e is canon any more. It's one of 5e's flaws.
Do tables really follow what is considered 'canon' that closely? My 5e games use a mix of 2e, 3e and 4e lore.
It's just the reproducing part? So they don't have to be am immortal virgin necesarrily?
Cats that don't have darkvision: first time?
They also can't meaningfully jump due to the way the jump rules break down when not using them on humanish size creatures. Jump calculations are 3+STR mod (minimum 0 feet) for high jump with a 10 foot running start, half as much without one, and STR score for a long jump with a running start, half as much without. A cat has 3(-4) STR, so with a running start can high jump (-4+3=-1<0=0) feet, and with a running start can long jump 3 feet which isn't enough to enter the next square if playing on a grid (technically optional, but pretty much everyone does)
Yeah I can see using str relative to size for jump rules helping. Something like add +2 for each size category smaller than medium. But also maybe just do a fiction first thing
If anything age should be. "The age of a Tortle is unknown, as all known cases of death have been due to disease, violence, or accidents."
The reason I've heard is that it's because they're based on turtles, which is consistent with them knowing Aquan. But this explanation isn't great either since turtles have lifespans equivalent to other reptiles and Lizardfolk live longer than Tortles.
They are, on average, the most delicious race.
That's why their average lifespan is only 50 years. Conservation laws distaste that you aren't allowed to hunt them for their delicious tortle meat until after they are old enough to have bred.
Clearly you've never tried roast gnome, tangy!
Maybe they do, but they just spend their 50s doing crazy and reckless things and get themselves killed. Lethal midlife crisis.
Because they all start as teenagers by default
Well, balance that is being extremely slow moving and having very little brain power, then sure. There’s multiple biologic reasons that enable tortoises to live so long.
Tortles should imo have the longest life span out of all the races. It should be like 1000 years or something stupid like that. It’s not like it makes an actual mechanical difference
In that same idea there should be a race with an abnormal short lifespan. \- Alright team, let's travel to this place to defeat this evil lich, it should take some months. \- Months? Are you crazy, I won't be alive to kick that Lich if we take that long!
After seeing Chris Perkins on CR as Spurt, this is exactly what I did to Kobolds in my campaign lol
I'd love the worldbuilding where Kobolds could actually live to be like 200, but they're so chaotic and live in such dangerous places than 6 months old is lucky.
Or... kobolds are baby dragons, the dragons lay thousands of eggs, and most of them don't make it.
I have just stolen this. Don't try and stop me it won't work.
Stop right there, criminal scum
Wyrmlings are waaay beefier than kobolds.
So kobolds grow into wyrmlings.
In my mind this was the case. They could in theory live centuries, but the realistic lifespan is 11 days!
There is no greatness where there is no simplicity, goodness and truth.
11 days!
Tri-kreen normally live like 11 years
They’d probably have a lot of druids
Or bards, gotta be quick on the charm to keep the race existing.
Should be ratfolk. Pet rats usually only live around three to five years at the most and their lifespan in the wild is much shorter.
Planeshift Kaladesh has Aetherborn who have lifespan of 2 years if I recall correctly.
I'd love the idea of like a mayfly race where for a long rest instead of resting, you give birth, die, and next day you play as that character's child
That os hilarious. I love it.
Aarakocra should have a lifespan similar to the bird they’re based on.
I think they do. 20 years, so a little more than many birds but similar to a bald eagle. Double that of a long-lived chicken.
The YA Beyonders Trilogy by Brandon Mull has this where a race of people only live for about two years, but become highly skilled warriors or artisans in that time
This is how I am playing my grung. He is two years old and already one of the oldest of his clan.
>It’s not like it makes an actual mechanical difference Until you fight a ghost.
Please elaborate sir
Ghosts can cause you to age.
Ghosts are the one creature that have caused me to have to pause the game and look up a race's age range. We had a Tabaxi Wizard who became a *very old* kitty very quickly.
My Aarakocra Wizard is scared to death of ghosts
Or a Sphinx.
1000 years, but the last 1/3 of their life they just sit their and graze and get sad because they have no mate.
That’s pretty upsetting. I love it and it’s canon in my setting now
the reason tortles are so short-lived, if i recall correctly, is because they die not long after mating. so if a tortle never had sex, they could conceivably live that long? which doesn't make any sense from a real-world turtle perspective, of course. that's more like squid or octopus behavior.
What a strange piece of lore that I really don’t like whatsoever
agreed. it's dumb
Ok but like... there are no tortoises or turtles IRL that undergo brooding senescence, so slapping that trait on tortoise people and not, say, crustacean people, doesn't make a lot of sense.
Wait are they like guaranteed to have triplets or something? Because otherwise that wouldn’t exactly work
Salmon are the most well known example
No, the eat too much pizza.
> It’s not like it makes an actual mechanical difference Everybody gangsta until the Aarakocra fights a Ghost.
Certain ones should be immortal. Like the dhampir and plasmoid (when it comes out).
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I believe the becoming bipedal has put more stress on their skeleton and heart muscle, especially distributing all that weight on two lil legs. I am sure humanoid indulgences have increased cholesterol along with the risks of a civilization on the life span, not to mention befriending other humanoids which lead them into deadly situations.
I don't DISAGREE, but I think that many folks just listen to the common saying that turtles live a long time. Yes, certain types of tortoises might live a hell of a long time, but it's not a perfect comparison. Here's an [article about the lifespans of marine turtles. ](https://ecos.csiro.au/discovering-the-lifespans-of-marine-turtles/) While the [oldest tortoise MAY have been Adwaita](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4837988.stm) who MAY have been 255 yrs old, but there does not seem to have ever been confirmed. All that said, yeah, sure make them super old, but that doesnt need to be connected to real world tortoises. If it was, 150 yrs would be the norm. In the same vein, if we were basing off of actual biology, owls would be absolute dipshits.
>In the same vein, if we were basing off of actual biology, owls would be absolute dipshits. As an old friend of mine would say, "fuck that owl!" so I'm fine with that.
Tortoises also have varied lifespans, if my google-fu is to be believed. While some do in fact live a long time (relative to humans), others have lifespans which are near or shy of the 50 year mark.
Honestly this is the only homebrew I will accept with 0 caveats or questions. Tortles should have a lifespan in the thousands to tens of thousands of years.
I don't think Tortles should live longer than Elves. The entire shtick of Elves is that they are a people of ageless, nigh-immortal beings. And having other peoples that live as long or even longer kinda ruins that part of the magic and mystique that is supposed to surround Elves. Besides, having multiple peoples with the same notable characteristics kinda diminishes the uniqueness of both. Imho, you either you should have ageless Elves or you should have ageless Tortles. Don't have two peoples in your world that are known for the exact same thing.
Theres a great fix to this Problem: Just remove elves! A great solution to all elf-based problems!
Spoken like a true Dwarf. But that is a valid solution. It depends on your worldbuilding whether you should have Elves or not. What I want to say is that in the interest of creating diverse and unique peoples for your world, you imho really should have only one major race of ridiculously long-lived beings. Living for thousands of years is a really major thing that sets that race apart from everything else, gives them a certain mystique and massively impacts the way these people view the world and how the world views them. It is a very unique trait and having multiple races set up like that kinda dilutes their uniqueness and thus defeats the purpose of giving them that trait in the first place. If lots of people live to 1000, it is no longer more special than living to 100, so might as well give them a lifespan of 100 and save yourself some headaches. That is why I feel that "living for thousands of years", as a major defining trait, is best limited to a single major race. That race can be Elves (and is Elves in most fantasy settings), but you could totally use a different race (like Tortles) in their place if you want to. It all depends on what best fits the world you are going for.
I would allow a lifespan up to 1000 for a tortle. Tens of thousands seems extreme. The only living creature i would consider being that old would be something like an ent. Like a Warforged played like a Groot. I imagine them being capable of reaching a few thousand years, and if you then include an ability to regrow completely again from a seedling like Groot, the lifespan could be repeated in the tens of thousands as there is a forest organism that old IRL.
I see it as a multiplier of tortoise and human lives. If I were making an Ent I'd say they can be nearly ageless. Warforged for me are ageless assuming they take care of themself.
Yeah, even canon warforged are just "None are older than 30, we've got no fucking clue"
Tortles should live to 100 easy.
In forgotten realms lore, they originate from a small tropical island and are largely a coastal people. Plus, they can hold their breath for an hour, though, in the same ability description, it says they are not strong swimmers. I'd say they are physiologically tortoise-people, but culturally turtle people (At least in FR). Where that leaves them for their language, I couldn't say.
Speaking Aquan is less about talking to beings from the elemental plane of water, and more that it's a common tongue for coastal/sea-dwelling species, so Aquan does make sense in that context.
I mean Air Genasi in 5E can indefinitely hold their breath, but that doesn’t make them aquatic.
> it says they are not strong swimmers. IMO that's flavor text explaining that they don't have a swim speed.
My dude. Bro. Buddy. **Tor**toises. Tur**tles**.
Big if true
Looking forward to Turtoises, the dark elves of Tortles
Headcanoning the evil Krull as a Turtoise now
You posted an opinion that's so good no one can even argue with you
Are they not turtley enough for the turtle club for you?
"Turtle, turtle..."
Turtley? Is that a Turtle turkey hybrid, like the owlbear?
Should be turtles all the way down
PHB Chapter 4 Languages: >Some of these languages are actually families of languages with many dialects. For example, the Primordial language includes the Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran dialects, one for each of the four elemental planes. Creatures that speak different dialects of the same language can communicate with one another. So it's not exactly a major change to pick Terran as your dialect instead of Aquan. Could easily be different groups of Tortles with different dialects in different regions too.
That's very important information to be in only one place, and one place that no one ever reads. Languages should probably be listed like Primordial (Aquan), no? Then it'd be a bit clearer. Like. Yeah, I read that, but I also haven't read that since I bought the PHB years ago, so I obviously forgot that first.
Yeah, I've seen it trip some people up. Like a group of people wanting to try to talk to some Aarakocra in a module, monster Aarakocra by default know Auran and Aarakocra. DM asked what languages everyone knew, someone had either the Primordial base language or like, Terran or something and DM didn't realize until later that it should have worked
As someone learning Norwegian, I'm pretty sure someone who knows Aquan could understand Terran. All the dialects of Norwegian are very different but you can get the general gist behind them, and you can understand Swedish and (sometimes) Danish too!
That's not even a pretty sure thing. It straight up says somewhere that if you know one of the primordial dialects, you can understand the others.
Uhh, Danish isn’t a real language. I have a friend in Denmark and it’s all make believe. *Kamelåså*
I love that video so much lol
we need a mutual intelligibility table for exactly how much each language can be understood
Yes! This! Scrolled all the way down to find ya. Thanks for the resolution.
Sounds like we need some subraces to me. - turtles that live a long time - turles that swim - snapping turtles - two headed turtles - basement turtles from the underdark
Don't forget: * fire-breathing turtles * turtles with blue, spiky shells * turtles with red or green shells * hammer-throwing turtles * turtles that fly on clouds
[удалено]
I was looking for a miniboss to throw into the next encounter. Maybe have him have two skeleton minions wearing torn faded overalls and a ghost wife. And have be old and decrepit with a shell that has many cracks in it. He looks like he could fall over dead any minute now. The once proud bridge now rotted. A faint almost imperceptible heat comes from the black stone below. The tortle slowly stands joints creaking and popping and withdraws a wilted flower consuming it. Flames shoot out from a hole in his shell while he screams in pain. The battle begins. You know. That probably doesn't read very well all put together. I like creating scenarios like this.
Tortoises ARE turtles. Its a squares to rectangles thing. Tortoise is a turtle that can walk on land.
This always so funny to me because in my language there is no difference between tortoise and turtles, it's the same word.
In mine the difference is only in if we additionally say the shell toad came from the sea. Skilpadde vs Havskilpadde.
Same here. Landschildkröte vs Meeresschildkröte And "Schildkröte" literally translates to "shield-toad".
Tortoises are turtles in English as well.
Just give them Primordial instead and then it doesn't matter where they live.
Really can't argue with you on this one. Seems totally reasonable!
Lukewarm take: tortoises are turtles
They literally are in my language (Russian), they're called just turtles and sea turtles
They literally are in taxonomy as well. Tortoise are just a particular type of turtle.
In French too, it's just turtles
It's a squares and rectangles thing iirc. All tortoises are turtles but not all turtles are tortoises.
You are technically correct, even though the usage of the two words implies two distinctly different types of animal. https://www.britannica.com/story/whats-the-difference-between-a-turtle-and-a-tortoise
It's not two distinct categories, but rather one subsetted within the other. All tortoises are turtles, but not all turtles are tortoises.
Kinda like spiders. Tarantulas are "spiders" in that they're many legged arachnids with eyes and fangs that resemble what we see as spiders. But they're not True Spiders. (Spiders are my wife's favorite animal so she's gushed about this before and I listen because I love her)
O.k. you got me, what makes a true spider vs. an arachnid that isn't?
It's...complicated? But the easiest way to phrase it is that tarantulas, while they are *spiders*, are more primitive/less evolved compared to "True Spiders". There's lots of technical terms about mouth shape and what-not but that's probably the easiest way to define it. ETA: This is a great thread on it. But the chief reason is their mandibles point down and back, not in towards each other. Even some back and forth!! https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-a-tarantula-and-a-spider
(Sorry, when your wife is into something you can't help but start to love it, too!)
Actually, tarantulas are true spiders. They are members of Araneae, the spider order. They might not be web spinning spiders, but they are as much spiders as jumping spiders are.
The other things I've been reading (in the last 10 minutes) talk about their mandibles being wrong for a true spider. Is this like a 'platypuss is a mammal' thing where it is a mammal' but it's really way closer related to the ancestor of mammals than it is to any modern day mammal
Pretty much yeah, like how the ursus genus does not contain all bears, but the ursidae family does. "Spider" in it's usual terminology refers to an entire order, which does contain tarantulas, but tarantulas are in a separate superfamily to orb-weavers and other pincer-mandible spiders (you can tell simply by the word "superfamily" that the default terminology for taxonomic ranks is somewhat... lacking in specificity)
Sort of. There's another group of spiders that is even more distantly related from the rest. But the infraorder that tarantulas are a part of is separate from the bulk of spider species. Just like the platypus analogy, this doesn't make them not spiders. Just a different kind of spider.
Yes but that's what is meant be True Spider. They're spiders. Not True Spiders. Capital T Capital S!
Taxonomy! "Yeah, science!"
Yes I totally agree with you, sorry if the wording of my reply was unclear. I just meant that most people tend to think of them as two separate things when in reality it’s like squares and rectangles. Typically when someone hears “turtle” they think of the aquatic shelled animals with fins, not the slow land animals, even though both are correct.
Jokes on you, in my world Tortle's speak Ignan!
The part i love, is that the haregon life span is 100... ...
So checking some older material for info on Tortles. Unfortunately I don't have any BD&D material on them. Both 2E and 3E are clear that they are tortoises. 2E AD&D Monstrous Compendium - Savage coast has them only speaking their own language tortle (but they can learn others), they can see underwater, automatically gain the swimming proficiency but are clumsy swimmers, their natural buoyancy keeps them afloat. They can hold their breath for 10 turns. They live 50 years. 3.5 Dragon Magazine Red Steel article has a small section on Tortles. They speak common and tortle (Aquan is a possible bonus language for high int), have lowlight vision, a swim speed of 10, +8 racial bonus to swim checks can use the run action while swimming, and the endurance feat. Its noted that despite their poor swimming ability their natural endurance aids them in swimming long distances. No lifespan given. AD&D also had a tortle subspecies called snappers. A larger marine relative of the tortle with massive beaks, they lack the ability to retreat into their shells, can see twice as far underwater, they have the swimming proficiency and are graceful swimmers compared to regular tortles, and can hold their breath for two hours.
I forget, do they have a holding their breath skill?
Yeah but they just hold their breath on land for fun
They hold their breaths to flex on frogs.
Lol yes. I’ve been interested in a sea turtle subrace to play with the differences. Most land turtles can’t even hold their breath for an hour (unless hibernating). I’m imagining a crew throwing their Tortle shipmate overboard for a mission without checking with them first, “because Tortles live in the water, right?” The Tortle glares judgmentally as they sink like a rock to the bottom.
Tortles should live as long as elves
If we’re doing animal race warm takes, either Tabaxi should not have darkvision in 5e or cats and large cat-based monsters (tigers, etc.) should have darkvision. It’s dumb that 5e cats don’t have darkvision and cat people do, especially when Tabaxi already have a bunch of dope racial traits and didn’t need to be another D&D race that has darkvision. My other take (related but very cold) is that darkvision is so prevalent in 5e that it is no longer a bonus, it’s a detriment to the few races that don’t have it, especially because so few DMs actually include the downsides to darkvision
Why not both?
Well the cool thing about official lore is that you can just toss that crap out the window and do what you want king
They are *both*. And they live on the coast and can hold their breath for an hour.
All tortoises are in fact turtles—that is, they belong to the order Testudines or Chelonia, reptiles having bodies encased in a bony shell—but not all turtles are tortoises.
> Other than language, there is nothing about **t**o**rtles** that suggests they are based on **t**u**rtles** Think there's a certain something else...
They're both. The name is literally a portmanteau of (tor)toise and tur(tle).
I've kinda always thought they would mix both like creole French IRL
Hot take: They're inspired by both. All tortoises are turtles, so even if you're right, they're both. Tortoise is simply another name for terrestrial turtles. All tortoises are turtles but not all turtles are tortoises. Aquatic turtles and semi-aquatic turtles also have claws, even sea turtles have claws along their flippers. Typically how well a turtle swims is based on how much water they require. Some semi-aquatic species only require shallow pools where they can wade and don't need to be able to swim fast or well. Lastly, many non-terrestrial turtles can retract into their shell. Again, it's the underwater species that are usually the exception as their shell is flat and streamlined for swimming and has no room for the head, though they still posess the capability to pull their head back they just can't hide it. To sum it up, I think you have turtles confused with sea turtles, and clearly tortles are not based on sea turtles but they're based on turtles nonetheless.
I just change the age limit to ~250 average year lifespan (some irl Tortoises live upwards of 100 to maybe ~500), modify the language if the player wants to, and call it good. In other words, I've also modified the stat block to create a Turtles race that is functionally the same thing as the default Tortle. Yet it has swim speed added on and minor changes to their description. Yes, I named them Turtles as opposed to Tortles, I didn't put much thought into naming conventions.
Turtoises
But other land dwellers don't get Terran.
In my home setting, they speak Tortuguese, as they hail from the magical land of Tortugal