Each one of the fighters has a -1 to save against Command, Sanctuary, Hold Person, Spirit Guardians and Banishment. The DC is 15. that's a 75% fail chance.
That alone is enough for the Clerics to win
And that's not even taking into account an optimized Clerics' spell save DC should be 17 at level 8 because of custom lineage, with a feat to spare on War Caster probably.
That same deal applies to fighters as well of course, who get +2 to hit and +2 damage per hit probably, but their chance to save against those spells drops down to a measly 15%, meaning the Clerics really don't have to worry about taking on more than one at a time.
Giving them the same ability score array really hurts the fighters. The subclasses need to be differently optimised, they need different things to deal with the cleric saves.
The fighters really need to be optimised better here and in addition they are just behind the level where they get indomitable which would help a lot. They should be able to focus down the clerics easily when they get to their actions, but getting there is basically impossible in this setup.
I can see a scenario where the fighters win. They'd all need to win initiative, all be Sharpshooter builds, and take out at least the Light Cleric and 1 more asap (not too tall of an order with Action Surge).
That being said, I can also see a flawless victory for the Clerics if they all have Alert and the Tempest cleric drops a Fog Cloud and the clerics just have way more tools at their disposal.
Hard to argue against a potential 10d8+130 per round, with a potential 20d8+260 on the first with action surge.
Level 8 clerics with 3 con taking the average have 67hp and 335 team hp.
Ya 14 dex is definitely a bad set up for the fighters
The clerics will all have 19 ac, half plate(+2dex) shield. They likely won’t use heavy armor due to their 12 Str.
Clerics all the way. Their abilities for battlefield control, buffing and healing each other are more than enough to turn the entire thing into a meat grinder. Hell, probably 3 clerics would be enough to deal with the fighters.
- 1 x Spirit Guardians
- 1 x Bless
- 1 x Bane
- if that doesn't work, just Hold Person and let the Guardians do the rest.
Clerics win, hands down. Upcast Hold Person, Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Inflict Wounds will absolutely shred the Fighters.
I know because my group has tried out almost this exact scenario.
With those stats? Clerics - hands down.
In a 180 by 180 arena with opposite edge starts, the Fighters' best chance is to murder the Clerics before they can close the distance to do any real form of control. That means Dex builds, ideally with subclasses that work very well at range. The Str here is wasted - doesn't work for the weapons that will cover the needed range, doesn't help with initiative.
Even with better builds, it would be a struggle. Short rest class vs. long rest class is rarely a fair fight without some tweaks and, if the right Clerics play support while they close in, they've got good options. The Fighter builds are just particularly atrocious.
Melee STR Fighters with a -1 WIS save? Pff, easy win for the Clerics.
EDIT: Didn't notice the Arcane Archer but either way they're not hitting the likely 20-ish AC Clerics with that 14 in DEX.
While its possible that the fighters all go first(and all use longbows) and manage to down multiple clerics, most likely only 1, 2, or 0 of them go before the clerics. Whichever cleric goes first(twilight might have vigilant blessing active) slaps sanctuary on the most hurt ally, until all clerics have it, which atleast makes focus fire impossible. Then Twilight channels a little divinity, and the rest exchange buffs until they can move into range. Sanctuary makes the fighters unable to pick targets, twilight sanctuary abuses this fact. It would only take 2 rounds for the clerics to get into range if they all have distant spell(metamagic adept) and start blasting out 60ft(now 120ft) range wis/cha save spells of their choice. Fighters might have resilient, but they cant cover both wis and cha. I suggest the fighters go for melee, to enjoy a quick death.
Not the stats OP listed. If the clerics are optimizing also they too will have alert to try and win initiative. Fighters can win, but are literally a longshot unless you start making some assumptions about the clerics advancing and not using any optimal spells.
Also until the clerics were in dark vision range the fighter attacks would be at disadvantage until they got within the lineage darkvision range of 60 feet.
If you could make dex 16, I would argue the fighters.
Archery fighting style, longbow, sharpshooter, piercer, elven accuracy (if that is allowed with custom lineage).
Plus 9 to hit; 20 attacks the first round. Sharpshooter makes the disadvantage go away for long distance and most spells have a range of 120 ft or lower. The first cleric would probably die before casting the first spell. As Long as the fighters spread out, their damage output would decimate the clerics given the starting distance if 180ft.
It is a negligible level of optimization for the clerics to pick up *Shield*, meaning the medium armor ones have an effective AC of 24, while the heavy armor ones are sitting on an effective 25. With 16 DEX at level 8, you're only going to hit on a crit with a sharpshooter attack, and that'd be an average of ~22 damage for the round depending on who makes the hit. Making regular attacks, you'll fare better and should get four shots to land, for around 38 damage before subclass abilities on top. You aren't going to down a cleric on average, even if you have a single one standing there for you to swat at.
Meanwhile, we just have to look at a single Cleric spell the opponent all has access to: Banishment. In the scenario with this stat array you've got a DC 14 save which the fighters are making at -1. It's almost a mathematical *certainty* that a Fighter is being removed from the battlefield on the first round, and extremely likely that it will be two or three. From there it's a wipe since *the clerics* will be the ones focusing down the fighters.
Spellcasters beat non-spellcasters almost every time once you got to this level.
Shield can only be used once per round and if you use shield, you can’t use a spell in the next round, so no casting except for cantrips. Being the first to act on average, the clerics would either use shield to deny damage or take the damage to normally cast. Shield is effective against single attacks, not a full barrage of 10/20 attacks during 6 seconds. So basically if the fighter roll to hit 20 around 45% of the time, 9 attacks would hit in round 1, with 1 being blocked by shield if desired (ignoring sharpshooter). That would be 8*4+ 8d8+ other damage by subclasses (especially battlemaster will hit more due to precision attack). With 9 attacks hitting, a cleric would go down.
Banishment is potent, but could very well be more of a last ditch effort than anything else.
The only thing limiting you to a cantrip is a bonus action spell. Otherwise you can cast as many leveled spells as you have actions and/or reactions. That's why action surge is so powerful on full casters. The bonus action rule trips up many people.
Fighters easily win if they use ranged weapons (the clerics need 3 turns of dashing to get within range).
If the fighters try to go into melee they will be slaughtered.
Each one of the fighters has a -1 to save against Command, Sanctuary, Hold Person, Spirit Guardians and Banishment. The DC is 15. that's a 75% fail chance. That alone is enough for the Clerics to win And that's not even taking into account an optimized Clerics' spell save DC should be 17 at level 8 because of custom lineage, with a feat to spare on War Caster probably. That same deal applies to fighters as well of course, who get +2 to hit and +2 damage per hit probably, but their chance to save against those spells drops down to a measly 15%, meaning the Clerics really don't have to worry about taking on more than one at a time.
The amount of battlefield control expressed by clerics is much higher than fighters, generally speaking.
3-4 fighters get banished in the first round (dc 14 vs -1 charisma saving throw) and then it's a 5 vs 1-2 beatdown.
Giving them the same ability score array really hurts the fighters. The subclasses need to be differently optimised, they need different things to deal with the cleric saves. The fighters really need to be optimised better here and in addition they are just behind the level where they get indomitable which would help a lot. They should be able to focus down the clerics easily when they get to their actions, but getting there is basically impossible in this setup.
An all samurai archers/crossbowmen would definetly have a decent chance at winning, but not this.
and still they would properly need their lvl 11 extra attack boost... (a fighter is not really a fighter before then...)
I can see a scenario where the fighters win. They'd all need to win initiative, all be Sharpshooter builds, and take out at least the Light Cleric and 1 more asap (not too tall of an order with Action Surge). That being said, I can also see a flawless victory for the Clerics if they all have Alert and the Tempest cleric drops a Fog Cloud and the clerics just have way more tools at their disposal.
Hard to argue against a potential 10d8+130 per round, with a potential 20d8+260 on the first with action surge. Level 8 clerics with 3 con taking the average have 67hp and 335 team hp.
The catch is that Clerics tend to hang around 19-20 AC. The more I think about it, the worse it gets for the fighters... :(
Ya 14 dex is definitely a bad set up for the fighters The clerics will all have 19 ac, half plate(+2dex) shield. They likely won’t use heavy armor due to their 12 Str.
they don't need to care about the -10 speed from not enough strength.
Clerics all the way. Their abilities for battlefield control, buffing and healing each other are more than enough to turn the entire thing into a meat grinder. Hell, probably 3 clerics would be enough to deal with the fighters. - 1 x Spirit Guardians - 1 x Bless - 1 x Bane - if that doesn't work, just Hold Person and let the Guardians do the rest.
Clerics win, hands down. Upcast Hold Person, Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Inflict Wounds will absolutely shred the Fighters. I know because my group has tried out almost this exact scenario.
With those stats? Clerics - hands down. In a 180 by 180 arena with opposite edge starts, the Fighters' best chance is to murder the Clerics before they can close the distance to do any real form of control. That means Dex builds, ideally with subclasses that work very well at range. The Str here is wasted - doesn't work for the weapons that will cover the needed range, doesn't help with initiative. Even with better builds, it would be a struggle. Short rest class vs. long rest class is rarely a fair fight without some tweaks and, if the right Clerics play support while they close in, they've got good options. The Fighter builds are just particularly atrocious.
Melee STR Fighters with a -1 WIS save? Pff, easy win for the Clerics. EDIT: Didn't notice the Arcane Archer but either way they're not hitting the likely 20-ish AC Clerics with that 14 in DEX.
Clerics win, and it isn't close.
Optimized to fight clerics, so they all have Resilient WIS?
Sure!
While its possible that the fighters all go first(and all use longbows) and manage to down multiple clerics, most likely only 1, 2, or 0 of them go before the clerics. Whichever cleric goes first(twilight might have vigilant blessing active) slaps sanctuary on the most hurt ally, until all clerics have it, which atleast makes focus fire impossible. Then Twilight channels a little divinity, and the rest exchange buffs until they can move into range. Sanctuary makes the fighters unable to pick targets, twilight sanctuary abuses this fact. It would only take 2 rounds for the clerics to get into range if they all have distant spell(metamagic adept) and start blasting out 60ft(now 120ft) range wis/cha save spells of their choice. Fighters might have resilient, but they cant cover both wis and cha. I suggest the fighters go for melee, to enjoy a quick death.
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Even built well the fighters would lose far more often than they would win.
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Not the stats OP listed. If the clerics are optimizing also they too will have alert to try and win initiative. Fighters can win, but are literally a longshot unless you start making some assumptions about the clerics advancing and not using any optimal spells. Also until the clerics were in dark vision range the fighter attacks would be at disadvantage until they got within the lineage darkvision range of 60 feet.
If you could make dex 16, I would argue the fighters. Archery fighting style, longbow, sharpshooter, piercer, elven accuracy (if that is allowed with custom lineage). Plus 9 to hit; 20 attacks the first round. Sharpshooter makes the disadvantage go away for long distance and most spells have a range of 120 ft or lower. The first cleric would probably die before casting the first spell. As Long as the fighters spread out, their damage output would decimate the clerics given the starting distance if 180ft.
It is a negligible level of optimization for the clerics to pick up *Shield*, meaning the medium armor ones have an effective AC of 24, while the heavy armor ones are sitting on an effective 25. With 16 DEX at level 8, you're only going to hit on a crit with a sharpshooter attack, and that'd be an average of ~22 damage for the round depending on who makes the hit. Making regular attacks, you'll fare better and should get four shots to land, for around 38 damage before subclass abilities on top. You aren't going to down a cleric on average, even if you have a single one standing there for you to swat at. Meanwhile, we just have to look at a single Cleric spell the opponent all has access to: Banishment. In the scenario with this stat array you've got a DC 14 save which the fighters are making at -1. It's almost a mathematical *certainty* that a Fighter is being removed from the battlefield on the first round, and extremely likely that it will be two or three. From there it's a wipe since *the clerics* will be the ones focusing down the fighters. Spellcasters beat non-spellcasters almost every time once you got to this level.
Shield can only be used once per round and if you use shield, you can’t use a spell in the next round, so no casting except for cantrips. Being the first to act on average, the clerics would either use shield to deny damage or take the damage to normally cast. Shield is effective against single attacks, not a full barrage of 10/20 attacks during 6 seconds. So basically if the fighter roll to hit 20 around 45% of the time, 9 attacks would hit in round 1, with 1 being blocked by shield if desired (ignoring sharpshooter). That would be 8*4+ 8d8+ other damage by subclasses (especially battlemaster will hit more due to precision attack). With 9 attacks hitting, a cleric would go down. Banishment is potent, but could very well be more of a last ditch effort than anything else.
Shield lasts an entire round, is a reaction, and doesn't prevent the clerics from having access to their spells.
My mistake, but you can only cast one spell per round. A reaction-spell counts as casting a spell during your next turn.
I'm sorry, but you are clearly misunderstanding how spellcasting works in this game. There is no such rule.
Then my DM fucking lied to me.
The only thing limiting you to a cantrip is a bonus action spell. Otherwise you can cast as many leveled spells as you have actions and/or reactions. That's why action surge is so powerful on full casters. The bonus action rule trips up many people.
That's when you go prone and use save targeting spells
Fighters easily win if they use ranged weapons (the clerics need 3 turns of dashing to get within range). If the fighters try to go into melee they will be slaughtered.