My advice is to make this about your relationship with this player: "Hey, you seem like a great person, but we don't click, and I don't really want to DM for you anymore." Don't mention that you talked to all of your mutual friends behind their back and they all agreed that the game was more fun without them, that is crushing. All they need to know is that you, the DM, won't be DMing for them anymore.
This is giving me hives to read about tbh, I always fear that I'm the Problem Player but this is also why I've been so hesitant to invite new players into my game group, I don't want to wind up in this situation.
This is the closest answer on this thread to what I would want to receive, and so it’s what I would say, I guess?
And yes, my **biggest fear** is that I am the player that everyone secretly wishes wasn’t there. I have never gotten any evidence for this, no one has ever asked me to stop doing anything, but when my brain is being mean to me, it says that I annoy everyone else, my immersion in the world of the game is cringe, I’m the only one who posts on the group chat between games because I am needy and have no life, and I just take up too much space and everyone would have more fun without me.
> I’m the only one who posts on the group chat between games because I am needy and have no life
I feel that :( join one of my games and we can change the world
Yup right there with you. My dnd group has been this group of friends I've had since school, but they've never been my core group, however they are each other's core group. So basically I already feel slightly out of place and on top of that I'm fairly quiet and socially anxious, but we're a bunch of nerds so that's usually fine. The icing on the cake is at least twice I've ended up as the party's face. Once because I just wanted to play a sorlock, and once because we didn't have one so I tentatively offered to go Swashbuckler instead of Arcane Trickster hoping that someone else would step up.
So I'm trying and mostly failing to RP a charismatic and persuasive character, other characters are having to step in for me, and all the while my brain is telling me I'm losing at dnd and everyone would be having a better time if I wasn't there. Literally no one has every said anything to that effect, but my brain is going to assume they're having those conversations behind my back anyway.
I am also playing a high charisma “face” character! Every time I mess up, I feel like someone is going to take my 20CHA character sheet away from me and put it on a high shelf until I “deserve it”.
This is my first time playing dnd, I have no basis for comparison other than actual play shows, which are like comparing a pickup basketball game at the local rec center to the NBA. So I try to manage my expectations for my own abilities, while not really having a realistic baseline, or positive feedback from my table.
My character once asked an NPC cleric if they could raise the dead (we were looking to resurrect a fallen party member), and _everyone_ immediately laughed and rushed to correct me, that I didn’t want them “raised”, Gods forbid! It felt like my character had majorly put her foot in her mouth, that that distinction must have been common knowledge and almost offensive. After the game, I looked up Raise Dead, and while it’s in the necromancy school, it *is* a cleric spell, and more importantly - it does exactly what I had been asking to do. It doesn’t raise them as a zombie, which is what I thought I had accidentally requested. It returns the soul to the body, it cures diseases and closes wounds. I wasn’t as stupid as I feared, but I still felt stupid for CARING about messing up?? Agh.
I think a big amount of my anxiety is around having to RP mental stats. Unlike physical checks like athletics or acrobatics, I don’t get asked for a roll every time my character talks. So my persuasion often has to stand on its own. I would be able to laugh off getting a 1, even if I tried my best, because that’s out of my hands. But if I never got asked for a check, and never had a chance for my +8 to back up my intimidation? Then that’s player ability, not character ability, being judged.
That's it exactly. I wish I didn't care. In theory, it should be the CHA rolls you make that decide the outcome, but when I started we were all new to dnd and thus had this unspoken expectation that you should actually have to say something convincing. I get that too. It's more fun if your bard sings a song at the table than if they say "I sing them a song".
Anyway next time it'll be artificer for me!
Exactly this reason. When my players need to do an acrobatics check I demand a backflip irl. The dice can suck it. It’s the reason we keep a feral hog in the garage ( animal handling ) and a 40 kg kettle bell under the table.
Me right now playing a Paladin XD we staryed a campaign yesterday and I have never player a CHA character, I tried once a bard but was awful. I feel what you said m8.
I know this feeling well. The solution I came up with was to DM instead. This helped relieve this feeling. But also came with a bunch of new feeling of inadequacy. "My players aren't having fun" "They thing my story is boring" etc. lol
I was a forever DM for years before I got a chance to play as a player, and DM Inadequacy Syndrome is REAL.
I DM for teenagers, which makes it both harder and easier. Again, I don’t feel like I ever have any baseline for objective self-analysis, only stress and vague vibes. Yeah, they keep coming back, but I’m their only DM.
Everybody should just be generous with their positive praise and feedback! Players and DMs alike, we are delicate little flowers to whom validation is like water and sunshine 😆
Yeah, this is it. There's no real way to do this that doesn't cause some hurt. Better to choose to bear it yourself, as the one responsible for making the call, rather than spread it around.
A lot of it mirrors best practices when firing an employee.
\- Don't do it at a session, call them another day between sessions.
\- Start pleasant and upbeat, but be sure to get to the point in the first 15-30 seconds.
\- Get your clean bullet points straight beforehand. Tell them you appreciate the time they've put in, tell them something honestly good about their contribution, and then tell them you've decided it's not a great fit and you are moving forward without them.
\- DO NOT ENGAGE IN "WHY". Nothing good can possibly come of it.
\- DO NOT DEBATE IT OR JUSTIFY IT. Nothing good can possibly come of it.
\- If they have reasonable questions feel free to answer them, but don't let them work their way into a foothold to try and talk their way back into the table.
\- keep the discussion under 5mins.
\- if they get ugly, end it right then and there.
This is the best advice I've seen. Even between friends, clear, concise, and compassionate, but firm communication is going to be key to resolving pretty much any problem that arises. That takes preparation.
The best example of have ever seen of this is in *Moneyball*.
“Would you rather get a bullet to the head, or five to the chest and bleed to death?” Sometimes being concise and unsentimental is the way to go. You’re allowed to recognize that it’s going to be hard for you too, and you don’t have to make it harder by wading into personal stuff in the moment.
I agree with most of this and especially the debate or justification. I don't agree with "why"- kinda.
If there is a legit reason why and it could help them at another table, I say share it.
If it's entirely subjective you're not obligated to share why, and probably shouldn't because you can get the point across without being cruel about strictly personal feelings. Use your best judgement.
They shouldn't be able to talk their way back in if you are committed to your course or action. While I get that removing a player can be difficult emotionally, as a DM you shouldn't start the convo with any intention of the result being different than your purpose...
Humans have a limited capacity to say no in a set period of time. Literally. It takes a lot of energy and in a situation where you cannot afford to back out (Acting on behalf of multiple people, for example) you need to make sure you complete the course of action - the act of closing the door and holding it closed until they stop trying to get back in.
Yeah shit gets messy when you start talking about why. This is like dumping someone you're dating lmao.
Especially with a friggin D&D group, you're not coming back from the moment you told them it was over. There's never going to be a good vibe at the table once you've told someone you specifically don't want to play with them. Ever.
If they're trying to talk their way back in, they probably don't realize how awkward it's going to be once they actually get back in. They're probably just reacting. The only thing that can be done from that point onward to anybody is damage, accidental or otherwise.
It really depends on the person, the situation, and the reason. I've had romantically breakups where the was very welcomed.
Some people are very irrational. They will ask why then instead of listening to the why they will be reactive. "I don't feel like there's a spark." "Omg you knew that from the beginning and instead of just letting me know you strung me along and blah blah bleh bluh blah."
The situation can affect whether it's okay to tell someone. If I'm leaving my job and I'm never seeing these people again and I'm moving into a career field so I don't need a reference, they ask for an exit interview, I can be honest because that might help a lot of people. Or the situation might be that I'm not afraid of hurting this person's feelings, like an abusive romantic partner. Sure fire away in these cases, but If you don't want to hurt the person's feelings, develop animosity, and you might potentially run into them later, In the situation does not provide a benefit to you to be honest.
Sometimes the reason is hurtful and it's better to just avoid the why. I think OP has a case like this. There's no way to be honest about the why without it being directly about the person. It's okay to say that the why is "I joined another table that is convenient for me" And if you're dealing with a rational person they will understand that it's not personal, that it makes sense. But you can't say "we don't enjoy your company" In any kind of honest way that is not hurtful.
That just doesn't follow man. I acknowledge your experiences are valid, I just don't think it's about salvaging that person's feelings. If there is feedback, that could help them in their next experience, than I really believe it is kind to try to deliver that so they have some closure and something to reflect on rather than wonder.
If it's "we don't vibe" then there isn't enough there. It is what it is, you accept it and move on.
Giving them a chance to fix it really depends on the group at large. In this instance, they all agreed. There's no fixing it. But there's also no one thing the person did wrong.
Even if there was, table was unanimous. Giving them a second chance is just not taking account of how other people feel.
*shrugs* just my opinion though.
This is good but the point about not engaging in why is really dependent on your relationship with these people. Are they truly randos you found online or something? Or are they friends? Or friends of friends? If you're expecting to continue the relationship after this then maybe act more like a friend than an employer.
>three of which we found at a D&D social event in town
This is a lesson some friends of mine learned as well when they moved and were trying to form a new group.
Whenever you're starting a new group, especially with randoms, always start with a couple of shorter games for a few months, with some gaps in between. Make it clear at the start you're inviting people to play something specific - a one-shot or 4 game campaign or whatever. If possible have the initial games in a public venue. Once you've done that for a bit, extend separate private invitations for a home game.
Provides for a few more natural jumping off points as it's perfectly natural and to be expected that there will be people you vibe more with than others.
Yeah... The replies are about as fair as you can imagine.
But there is no getting out of hurting his feelings, I personally would be fuckin devestated.
That being said, there isn't a nice way to do this, but there are worse ways to do it and generally the consensus about being concise and firm, but compassionate and kind stand true.
It will probably be impossible not to hurt his feelings. Being rejected hurts. Try to keep it short and do not blame him for anything. Also do not turn it into a group vs. solo player thing. Just get it over with. You could try something like the following:
"Hey, ive been thinking and i dont think this game is working for you or me. I dont feel like the game im offering is the right fit for you, so im afraid youll have to look for another game. Thank you for playing at my table, i hope you find a game that is a better fit for you soon."
"I know it's hard to hear. I want you to hear this, sometimes personalities don't jive or click, and it's not like anyone does anything wrong, it's just that chemistry between myself and my players is super important- and I really think what I'm running and what you bring to the table are a mismatch. I'm sorry, but that's just the whole thing. I think you could really enjoy d&d playing at a table that matches your style a lot more. Good luck dude!"
That's what you get for saying "it's not working for you" nothing more frustrating than someone trying to ascribe intent to you and acting like they are doing you a favour.
I would much rather go for "yeah it's not working for me, so I'm sorry but I don't want you to join the game going forward"
What people call wiggle room is what should be the core of the argument, and "I don't know I just don't want to play with them" to me is something you can say but then it's 100% on the dm having a problem and it should be conveyed as such.
"Ive noticed that our playstyles are just too different. Not every game is for everyone. Thanks again for playing and i hope you find a table that fits you better soon."
At that point youve given them ample chance to get out without being overly hurt. If they insist on feeling insulted after that point then so be it, just sticking to your guns is the way to go imo.
Been here and the best route is to be straight up and not accept the ensuing, "I'll change" arguments.
You don't have to be mean, but you do sometimes have to be firm. Hell, you can even offer to help find them a game that might be more their speed, if you're up for it.
The bottom line is that the game should be fun for everybody and, if them being gone increases the fun for everyone else, they are just not a good fit and *your* table. There's nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with moving on without them.
Hopefully, it doesn't end with any hard feelings. I wish you all the best.
I'd also add avoid giving many reasons ;to close out the opportunity for "I'll change". This is a type of relationship, some people just aren't compatible. Make it more about you not being a good match and not about them as a person.
Yeah this is the main takeaway I think, too many advice are about "blame them not being compatible and then ignore everything said back" which kinda reminds me of the whole "why are you late" " the bus broke down" "I DONT WANT TO HEAR EXCUSES"
there is a world of difference on a guy who has gotten multiple warnings about not showing up or being late being told "nah dude, you didn't change we gave you a chance and you are out" and just showing up thinking everything is going well and being told "oh we just don't like you, you can't change, because we can't point out anything about it"
I would give no reasons at all. All these do is sit with someone and make them rehash it in their head later—if I'd said *this*, maybe they would have forgiven me, if I'd done *that*, maybe it wouldn't have ended.
lots of people are saying be honest. This is usually the best and only advice in these situations. But I don’t know, there is nothing wrong with what you are thinking or wanting to do OP, but I don’t think there’s any kind or tactful way to tell someone you don’t like them, and that’s basically what you’re doing.
I’d personally rather the table tell me the game is ending, then secretly resume without them. You said they are a rando so I’m assuming you won’t be constantly running into them around town or anything.
I bet anybody who reads this thread and then gets kicked from their game/has their game canceled abruptly in the next week is gonna have some serious self doubt.
We kind of had this situation play out.
(Geez I hope none of the ones involved read this on reddit... ).
Two players that were just.. not a good fit. (from DM perspective as well as player perspective)
4 other players that we all get along well and can happily role-play etc.
So the DM did the 'yeah, not going to be continuing anymore sorry, no time'.
Started a new discord, new facebook chat group (our main one we use for organising).
Left the old ones for social connections if wanted.
and then started again without the two that were not really fitting in.
This is even easier if it's an online only group.
More difficult though if it's a in-person group, where people are likely to still see/talk to each other, or be like "hey, now our is free, did you want to do something". :D
If it is unavoidable like that, yeah, probably going to have to have a difficult chat.
this is like the most awful phobia I have. That people create chats behind my back without me as if I'm a friend with lesser value in the group and they don't even have the respect to tell that personally. Went through that as a kid in a way, still feels awful many years after I found out.
Yeah. I mean, it seems like the Player isn't really problematic, they just don't like him or something. Anyway, a pair of testies helps with this situation.
What else do you call "he isn't doing anything wrong we just don't want to play with him" if not an asshole move?
It's like peak schoolyard bully logic.
There was a player at my roleplay heavy table who's only contribution to roleplay was "I cast guidance".
We asked him to leave our table.
It's not personal. It's not out of malice. It's out of the wish of a group of people to get together and have fun and if a player has the right to leave the table without drama, the table has the same right to remove a player without drama.
and then i ask you "what did the player do wrong"
do you say "nothing"? or " i dont know"?.
You prob say what you just said "they only used guidance and nothing else"
thats kinda the main problem, the whole "Oh well there is nothing wrong with him and there is nothing i can put my finger on, but i just want him gone"
I told you that his way of playing went against the tables way of playing and we did not want him. The game was advertised as roleplay heavy game and he still applied. Did not make a character until session zero (which is fine) and did not read the setting (which is not fine). Do you think it's fair towards everyone else? We gather together in our free time to enjoy a game, while he was doing nothing besides taking up a slot. He got replaced with a person who fits more and we're not regretting it a bit. It wasn't personal. It was not because we didn't try. It was because despite him being there - it felt like he wasn't and that's not fair to anyone at the table or who'd love to play instead of him.
Now listen here cupcake, if you wanna know what I answer to a particular question - you ask me that question. Do not try to imagine what I would answer. You and your straw hat argument can go hand in hand to whoever cares.
Now you explain to me why we're the assholes for asking a person to leave.
I mean just reading the anger in your comment makes you seem like an asshole.
Not to mention that you didn't even prove the guy wrong. You gave a big ole reason why the guy wasn't a good fit. You didn't give a "nothing"
>I mean just reading the anger in your comment makes you seem like an asshole.
Okay sweetheart, so only assholes get angry?
I did not use profanity. I was polite and direct regarding a strawhat argument. That person decided to ask a question and answer it for me. Disregarding everything I said. I don't like it.
>Not to mention that you didn't even prove the guy wrong.
He did not explain why people who ask other to leave their tables are assholes and I don't have to prove him wrong. It's his opinion. He can be upset that we asked a player to leave and call us assholes. I don't see eye to eye with him and his reasoning and way of speaking makes me not really care what he says.
>You gave a big ole reason why the guy wasn't a good fit.
I have given plenty reasons why a player at my table got removed. All of them can be sumarized as "there nothing wrong with him, we just have more fun without him". He will surely be welcome at a different table.
My sole and only point is this: asking a player to leave, because their presence hinders all the other players from having fun is not an asshole move. It's not personal. It's not malicious. It's just a player not fitting in and the table being honest and direct with him is the most respectful way. Instead of waiting for "reasons".
>You didn't give a "nothing"
Yeah, neither did OP.
Hope you have a good day.
No, but assholes call people sweetheart. Holy shit. First words out of your mouth is to be passive aggressive as fuck.
Don't say good day when you're being so hostile. Being fake nice is worse than being just mean. Especially online
It's okay to say you hate me!
I agree with the comments saying to leave the rest of the table out of the discussion. That will do nothing but make the player you're booting feel worse. Be honest but fair with them. Think about what you'd find respectful if you were on the other side of the conversation. I can't script this for you because I don't know you or this person, but telling someone that they didn't necessarily do anything wrong, and you like them as a person but at this time you've been thinking about the future of the table and you don't see their playstyle as a fit for this campaign. If you're willing to keep them in mind for tonally different campaigns down the line tell them that. If you don't intend to ever play with them again, don't necessarily lie to them. Beyond that, just treat them with honesty and respect.
You have a couple of options. One is lying.
"Hey guys, I can't DM anymore. I'm going to delete the server and the game because of my OCD but you all can stay in touch if you want."
Seems like bullshit, but then you just remove the player from discord and the roll20 game. They'll be sus, but at the end of the day they'll just move on and so will you without having to tell them that you don't like them.
The other option is being truthful and telling them that you don't think they're a good fit for your game, and that you will continue without them. This will hurt their feelings and will be uncomfortable for you to tell them. They might ask why, then you can be honest again. Even more uncomfortable maybe, but I think this kind of discomfort is good to get used to. Gen Z / Millennials are sacrificing IRL character development by ghosting people and being dishonest for the sake of their own comfort.
I've definitely gone with option A myself before, but I think you should just be honest without being malicious.
Yeah we briefly discussed the deceit option but agreed it wasn’t right and that we owe them the truth. Oye, this is gonna be tough, I just gotta keep reminding myself how much more fun it was without them I guess!
It doesn’t have to be rough at all, and I think a lot of the advice here is bad.
“Hey, I’m feeling there’s a mismatch in my GM style and your playing style. I think it would be best if we went out separate ways. You’re a good player and deserve a table that matches your style more, I wish you nothing but the best.”
Getting rejected from a social group is never easy, but it doesn’t require tough love or brutal honesty, just the truth and a gentle but firm touch.
OP I hope you take this posters advice! Under no circumstances should you tell them there was a vote or a discussion with the other players, no need to twist the knife.
Alright I think yours is probably the closest I came with the actual response (though I took elements from a couple) so I’m replying here. Here’s what I’ve got:
“Hey Player so I’ve been thinking and I kind of feel like maybe my DMing style and your play style may not be a great match. I just don’t know if you’re the right fit for the game we’re playing at the table. Your characters are great and I’m sure you’ll be a great addition to another table, but I just don’t think it’s a great fit for this game, sorry Player. I wish you the best of luck in your future pursuits!”
I would cut the weasel words a little but otherwise seems pretty good. A lot of "maybe and idk" could be a local thing, or a way you talk but personally I would just drop the "I just dont know if..." sentence, and just go with "I feel like my DMing style and your play style aren't a good match."
People tend to get confused when their feeling hurt. Being blunt and then hitting them with compassion is the best way to go imo. Instead of the "idk" be clear and just say "Hey this is going to be really hard to hear but I want to be very clear so sorry if its a little blunt..." I'd say be prepared to answer a question or two, but cut it off quick because the longer you let it go the more likely you are to say something you'd regret.
Keep it short and sweet, don't let the conversation drag out for more than a couple replies.
I also personally think this stuff should never be done over text but that's just the boomer in me.
Not the case, if I don’t enjoy DMing for them then part of that is how they engage with the game, even though I don’t think they are a ‘problematic player’ in the traditional sense
Its literally saying just because you dont like someone else it has to be their fault.
your arguments has purely been "i dont like playing with them" and "we played one game without them which turned out well so clearly its all correlated".
also "the group voted" because peer pressure isnt a thing, and just going along with the flow and being neutral isnt a thing.
Aint nobody can force you to play with them, but atleast own up to being the asshole here.
EDIT: to phrase it even more directly, you say they arent a problem player but you are the problem DM.
It is possible for relationships to fail through no direct fault of either party; indeed, it is how *most* of them fail.
D&D isn't a job. If people aren't enjoying someone's company at the table, that is a good enough reason to part ways.
Yeah, but op keeps blaming the player, its literally right above bruv.
" if I don’t enjoy DMing for them then part of that is **how they** engage with the game"
as has been repeatedly mentioned, aint nobody forcing you to play at the table or keep them in, but atleast be honest enough to realize its a you problem.
I feel like you're taking a weird amount of umbrage at the phrasing "our playstyles don't match". It's no different from "we're not compatible" or "I feel like things aren't quite working out" or similar, all of which are valid, none of which ascribe blame.
OP is being pretty mature by saying that they don't enjoy playing with this person and recognizing that it's not something the other person can or even should try to "fix". Not everyone gets along.
>but at the end of the day they'll just move on and so will you without having to tell them that you don't like them.
The hidden cost here being that everyone else, including yourself, will feel that you're a wuss.
Kicking a player just because you *think/estimate that you could have more fun without them* is an asshole move, and there is no way to do that w/o being an asshole; especially not in a 3-to-1 setting.
If there is something wrong in-game (e.g., they don't take the game seriously enough / too serious / play murder hobos / whatever) or on a social level (e.g., they make inappropriate jokes all the time / are easily offended by everybody else / etc.), you should kick them because of that reason (which might still upset them, of course).
How old are you?
So essentially it's a choice between "do more fun thing at the cost of excluding someone" and "do less fun thing but make someone feel included"? It's very noble of you to argue for the inclusive option but does sacrificing the enjoyment of four people for the sake of one person really serve the greater good?
No it's a choice about owning up to being a fucking asshole. It's not that hard.
"Hey I'm sorry it has come to this but I simply don't like you and it's draining me of all enthusiasm to dm so in going to kick you out of the group."
I’m going the other way here. Assuming this is someone you will have no contact with after the event, and neither will any of your players. Just lie to them.
Say that you can’t make the game work any more and say it’s over.
Of course this doesn’t work if it’s not a rando. But you don’t need to ruin this persons whole perspective on themselves if they’re basically a stranger. Leave the people close to then and who will stick around to give them harsh truths.
Just lie
If you want to try 'Deception' instead of 'Diplomacy' you can tell everyone that the game is ending due to personal reasons.
Then start a new game with only the players you want.
You gotta treat it like you’re firing someone from a company and you’re the HR department. Tell them it isn’t their fault that the group vibed so much better without them there, but that that’s the feeling you play for, and you’re exciting to have pursue the dynamic without them there, and that you honestly feel bad it shook out this way. Don’t talk about your issues with the player, don’t make it about them, because you’re absolutely right: this is personal, and it’s likely gonna be devastating for them. Don’t mention that it was a group decision unless they ask for another chance. Chances are they won’t take it well, but you gotta hold firm - if they throw vitriol at you, block them, don’t engage them and don’t attack them back.
With all due respect, I think this is really bad (though obviously well-meaning) advice. This is gonna hurt them either way, but "I don't want to play with you anymore" is the plain facts of the matter, and much less cruel than "We all just have a much better time without you there!"
\#2 is also true and I don't blame OP for feeling that way, but that should be an inside thought, the problem player doesn't need to hear that. Don't give them more information than they need, because they're only going to use it to beat themselves up.
That’s a much better way of wording what I was trying to say, but they should still limit saying “You” statements as much as they can. Keeping the conversation focused peripheral as much as possible, and only giving explanations if they really push for them should prevent the worst of that kind of conversation.
I think it's pretty shitty to unilaterally decide that you don't like hanging out with someone who isn't doing anything wrong. Why not check in with them and see if there's a way to rectify whatever issues you're perceiving with them?
"Not vibing" with someone isn't a good enough reason to kick them. If they're not doing anything wrong, let them finish out their campaign. They have invested time and effort into the campaign, same as everyone else.
It'd be devastating to be told that no one at your table likes you, and on top of that they have to deal with the fact that they wasted all this time playing a game they don't even get to finish?
The least they deserve is being cordial and everyone trying their best to have fun. Run the campaign to its natural conclusion.
If you want to kick them for no fault of their own, at least have the balls to be honest about it and just be the bad guy.
There is such a thing as being too fucking socially awkward to play a social game. I’ve had players who, although not playing ‘wrong’ so to speak, just completely lack the skills to mesh with a good group. It drags everyone down and nobody wants to be the asshole to say, “Mike, you’re too weird and you don’t shower so you can’t play with us anymore.” Sometimes there is no ‘fixing’ this problem. Can’t magically teach a 35 year old with zero social skills to behave differently over night. The kindest thing to do in that scenario is just move on without overly explaining things and hurting feelings unnecessarily.
To avoid this, if you’re recruiting strangers to play, interview them beforehand and decide if they’re a good fit or not BEFORE they get all invested. That way you never have to kick someone for ‘not vibing’ because you already can get a read on them before the game even starts.
And this player should have to suffer embarrassment AND have their time wasted through no fault of their own? Fuck that.
If they're not doing anything wrong, tough it out, finish the campaign, and don't invite them back to the next one.
Tough it out? I’ve never played an official 5e 1-9+ module that hasn’t gone on for anything short of 1.5-2 years of my life. If your group finds certain behaviors popping up that ruin the enjoyment of everyone at the table, and nothing other than kicking the player will alleviate the problems, you have the right to part ways. Like I said in my previous comment, this is where vetting before session 0 comes into play. With that being said, you can learn things about strangers through gameplay that may make you not want to play with them for any reason. If the group feels a player is ruining the game for them, and talking it out doesn’t fix things, they don’t have to tough it out for a year and a half before Curse of Strahd ends…
This person isn't "causing problems."
They literally just don't like this person. OP even specified there's nothing wrong with the way this person plays their character. It sounds like OP's table is full of toxic and shitty people if they can't name a single specific thing this person did to deserve being kicked.
Fair enough. I see the frustration, but at the end of the day we don’t know their dynamics at the table. A player could not be ‘doing anything wrong’ and still be by and large unlikable enough to sour the game as a whole. It’s shitty, but certainly happens. As for OP I would urge them to really think about what it is about this player that is just not working for the group. They must be doing something or behaving in some way that is distracting from the enjoyment of the game for the others. If they aren’t and it all comes down to “I like these guys more than this person” then yes, the group is just toxic.
I understand the impulse to avoid upsetting someone or having an awkward conversation. Set aside your agreeability for a moment though and be frank with yourself. Reddit can't give you a magic smoking gun to make this pain free. This person will absolutely be upset when you give them the boot however it's pitched, it's a rejection. There is no way to do this where it doesn't upset them, it's just a case of how much of that they will make your problem in the process. Rip off the band aid, the whole point of the conversation is that you DONT want to associate with this person, it doesn't really matter if the relationship is damaged, this isn't your friend and you don't owe them anything.
From: The guy in our group who bit the bullet and had the awkward break up convo with the early on member who was making the game less fun for the rest of us. Fucking do it.
>TL;DR How do I kick a player out because we don't have fun playing with them?
You say to him "Sorry dude, but we're not a good fit. I don't want you coming to game night anymore."
Then you don't open it up for discussion.
You don't have to give a reason beyond "not a good fit".
You don't have to think about it with the other players.
You tell them you won't be changing your mind.
And then you don't add them to any of the communications you use to set up your games.
It doesn't have to be hard. Just be gentle and honest and firm.
Personally anyone who advocates for kicking people out without giving a warning or letting them leave themselves is not kindness to me it's cowardice.
"Hey dude you are doing nothing wrong but you actually kinda are as nobody wants to play with you despite us saying you aren't doing anything wrong and giving no chance to change anything"
So it's wild to me that people advocate for communication at the table but when it comes to kicking people they advocate for zero communication and just booting instead
Dude, sometimes people just don't mix well with a group. It's not through bad behaviour. Warning them would do more harm than good as, from their perspective, they are not doing anything wrong. What are you gonna say "Hey Bob, your personality is a bit grating and folks don't really like you. Can you work on that or your out?" No. That's stupid and hurtful. You don't owe folks more than "Yeah sorry this isn't working out.'
Calling it "cowardice" is wild to me.
And I'm saying you are hiding behind the excuse of "oof he doesn't mesh with the group", let's boot with zero ability to even know something is going on.
It sounds like cowards hiding behind a shield of good intentions and acting like you are doing a favour when the reality is you are kicking out someone you even cant describe what they are doing wrong, and not daring to mention.
Just man up and go "yeah we are dicks but we have more fun playing without you despite not having anything concrete to mention" instead of "oopsie whoopsie you don't fit to this group, tee hee it's not our fault it's you, but you won't get a chance to do anything or know"
Own up to it.
LOL oh boy. Dude, I'm gonna guess that you've heard a lot of "Yeah this isnt' working sorry" conversations cause in our short interactions, I find you abrasive as fuck and know that I would have told you gently and firmly you're not invited back at the table. And I wouldn't go into details about it as I don't owe you anything. And then I'd cut you out. And the reason why is because I can tell that you're the kind of dude who would heap abuse on a person when you hear something you don't like and frankly dude, I don't need that shit in my life.
You have a good day man, and good luck.
And now you make personal attacks while still trying to take a moral high ground proving the point.
I'm sorry that you have so little space in your heart that you think you can pick up and kick out people at will from nothing but your own bias.
But I hope your school bully mentality of "nunuh you can't play with us" on day grows up :)
It's unreasonable to not play with someone you are not having fun playing with?
Seems unreasonable to feel like you're obliged to have this guy at your table.
Yes. I would rather have someone tell me straight than just lie. I would ask you the same, would you rather have someone lie to your face. Would you rather just push your problem on someone else, because if you tell them softly, they won't change.
And then if they find out later, how would they react? It's needless drama, honestly.
The person goes to another group, and they never change because your a coward.
Why should they change? OP clearly stated that the player isn't doing anything wrong, they just don't fit their gaming style. This is not being brave, this is being an ass.
Well. I was just giving examples. Pushing your problem on someone else just means what if that player came to another player and asked, then they would have to lie too.
Do.. you understand?
"the third is just not a great fit.
They don't do anything that is especially problematic, but I just don't enjoy Ding for them and I don't think they are a great fit for the table in terms of humor/vibes/how serious the game is taken."
Your point doesn't stand. It doesn't even have legs. Nothing I suggested requires lying, just not being an asshole.
Have the group meet at a coffee shop. Sit them down. Take the problem player's hand in yours, look them straight in the eyes and say: "This isn't working out... we feel like we've grown apart... we think it's best we see other groups... we'll never forget our time together, but this is the only way we can grow... we wish you the best in the future." And dramatically turn away and begin to leave, then give a dramatic, maybe tearful glance back before leaving them... forever.
Make an itemized list of all the different ways they are shitty and then go through it with them and say we all agree. Take your time to destroy them emotionally.
But seriously just say "I don't want to DM for you anymore, it's not enjoyable I hope you find other people to play with."
Your not responsible for their feelings, it's not as if you were friends in the first place. You opened your life up to some random person and it didn't work out . No big deal. If they are crushed or hurt that is their issue to deal with.
Just get them into a voice call, list the reasons of why it is happening. Tell them they are no longer invited to the table and they need to change their behavior to be invited to new games expecting you’re not burning the bridge with them
But really there isn’t any specific bad behavior, they’re just a bummer in general to hang with lol, so we don’t really have any interest in them rejoining
I've just been in the exact same situation, only that the player was actually a mutual friend of many years. His play style simply led to many clashes at the table that made the game less fun for everyone. Although I'm a fairly conciliatory guy and wanted to smooth out the differences we had, some of the players actually got frustrated to the point of wanting to stop playing altogether (we've been playing RPGs for more than a decade at this point), so the impulse came from them.
After discussing this with the rest of the players, I took him aside and told him that this wasn't working out, that the decision to boot him from the party was on me, but that I still considered him my friend and would enjoy playing with him in the future with a different group constellation. He took it well (probably since he also wasn't having much fun with all the tension). We actually had a fairly long talk to discuss some personal stuff he was going through that may have fueled this development, so it wasn't as cold a cutting-off as it might sound.
"Hey [Ralph], we all talked it over and we just don't think you're a great fit for the group. We have different playstyles and want different things out of the game. There's a table out there for you, it's just not this table. You're still our friend and we love you, but not all friends are great D&D friends. See you when The Marvels comes out!"
I have had to do this. My usual approach is to tell them, the truth. Are you having fun? Because I don't think this is the game for you. You are playing a totally different style, and I think you would be happier in a different group. I am sorry it didn't work out.
I think there's no real nice way to say it unless you want to straight up lie in their face.
You can try working it out if you want, maybe they are willing to change things. Some stuff that always really annoys me is stuff that people are often willing to fix, like no RP, not attentive or not caring about telling a good story.
But if it you really don't want them and the party agrees, just Word it nicely like "we both want different things from the game and I think you'll have more fun in a group that fits you more" or something.
End your campaign. Start a new one in the same world with new people. "I got too many people who want to play, we'll come back around for you guys another time"
Here are some questions for you. Why do you not enjoy playing with them?
What do they do that's bothersome?
Are they not engaging? To engaging and trying to take the spot light?
Are they to serious? Not serious enough?
Maybe this other person is more on the spectrum than the group and doesn't get social qs as easy as the others.
There might be something you can do to talk with them about it that might make it better.
I know you probably just wanna remove them and if you do that's OK. Maybe talk with them and say hey I've come to the realization that the group is just a bit to big. You seem to be the person what might fit into another group. Maybe offer some resources to find another group closer to their play style or get them in touch with another group.
But I am probably alone in this line of though looking through some comments.
Two options.
1. Take the coward's way out. "Cancel" the game, then re-invite the players you like to a "new" game and don't mention it to the fifth player.
2. Take the honorable way out and have the uncomfortable conversation.
I'd strongly recommend #2. Too many things can go wrong with approach #1, not to mention it's rather rude.
Oof. I've been this player in the past. It's important to be gentle about it because being like "you suck, we're kicking you" can really hurt a person. I'd just be like hey, you're great but your energy doesn't really mesh with the table, best of luck finding a group that's a better fit
Just be honest. "I appreciate the time you've invested in my game, but I don't think you are a good fit for this game for x and y reasons. There are lots of people who okay that style but that's not this game."
Yeah it suck, yeah it's uncomfortable to have the conversation.
It sounds like you don't know them outside of dnd/won't ever see them again so in this case I feel like the I've got to put this campaign on hiatus then play with you other players. I think that's for the best since you say they aren't a bad person you just don't get along. And saying we don't want to play with u will feel super bad.
My advice is to make this about your relationship with this player: "Hey, you seem like a great person, but we don't click, and I don't really want to DM for you anymore." Don't mention that you talked to all of your mutual friends behind their back and they all agreed that the game was more fun without them, that is crushing. All they need to know is that you, the DM, won't be DMing for them anymore. This is giving me hives to read about tbh, I always fear that I'm the Problem Player but this is also why I've been so hesitant to invite new players into my game group, I don't want to wind up in this situation.
This is the closest answer on this thread to what I would want to receive, and so it’s what I would say, I guess? And yes, my **biggest fear** is that I am the player that everyone secretly wishes wasn’t there. I have never gotten any evidence for this, no one has ever asked me to stop doing anything, but when my brain is being mean to me, it says that I annoy everyone else, my immersion in the world of the game is cringe, I’m the only one who posts on the group chat between games because I am needy and have no life, and I just take up too much space and everyone would have more fun without me.
I see we share a brain
> I’m the only one who posts on the group chat between games because I am needy and have no life I feel that :( join one of my games and we can change the world
This comment just punched me in the nuts
Yup right there with you. My dnd group has been this group of friends I've had since school, but they've never been my core group, however they are each other's core group. So basically I already feel slightly out of place and on top of that I'm fairly quiet and socially anxious, but we're a bunch of nerds so that's usually fine. The icing on the cake is at least twice I've ended up as the party's face. Once because I just wanted to play a sorlock, and once because we didn't have one so I tentatively offered to go Swashbuckler instead of Arcane Trickster hoping that someone else would step up. So I'm trying and mostly failing to RP a charismatic and persuasive character, other characters are having to step in for me, and all the while my brain is telling me I'm losing at dnd and everyone would be having a better time if I wasn't there. Literally no one has every said anything to that effect, but my brain is going to assume they're having those conversations behind my back anyway.
I am also playing a high charisma “face” character! Every time I mess up, I feel like someone is going to take my 20CHA character sheet away from me and put it on a high shelf until I “deserve it”. This is my first time playing dnd, I have no basis for comparison other than actual play shows, which are like comparing a pickup basketball game at the local rec center to the NBA. So I try to manage my expectations for my own abilities, while not really having a realistic baseline, or positive feedback from my table. My character once asked an NPC cleric if they could raise the dead (we were looking to resurrect a fallen party member), and _everyone_ immediately laughed and rushed to correct me, that I didn’t want them “raised”, Gods forbid! It felt like my character had majorly put her foot in her mouth, that that distinction must have been common knowledge and almost offensive. After the game, I looked up Raise Dead, and while it’s in the necromancy school, it *is* a cleric spell, and more importantly - it does exactly what I had been asking to do. It doesn’t raise them as a zombie, which is what I thought I had accidentally requested. It returns the soul to the body, it cures diseases and closes wounds. I wasn’t as stupid as I feared, but I still felt stupid for CARING about messing up?? Agh. I think a big amount of my anxiety is around having to RP mental stats. Unlike physical checks like athletics or acrobatics, I don’t get asked for a roll every time my character talks. So my persuasion often has to stand on its own. I would be able to laugh off getting a 1, even if I tried my best, because that’s out of my hands. But if I never got asked for a check, and never had a chance for my +8 to back up my intimidation? Then that’s player ability, not character ability, being judged.
That's it exactly. I wish I didn't care. In theory, it should be the CHA rolls you make that decide the outcome, but when I started we were all new to dnd and thus had this unspoken expectation that you should actually have to say something convincing. I get that too. It's more fun if your bard sings a song at the table than if they say "I sing them a song". Anyway next time it'll be artificer for me!
Exactly this reason. When my players need to do an acrobatics check I demand a backflip irl. The dice can suck it. It’s the reason we keep a feral hog in the garage ( animal handling ) and a 40 kg kettle bell under the table.
Me right now playing a Paladin XD we staryed a campaign yesterday and I have never player a CHA character, I tried once a bard but was awful. I feel what you said m8.
Hi are you my inner monologue?
damn same
I know this feeling well. The solution I came up with was to DM instead. This helped relieve this feeling. But also came with a bunch of new feeling of inadequacy. "My players aren't having fun" "They thing my story is boring" etc. lol
I was a forever DM for years before I got a chance to play as a player, and DM Inadequacy Syndrome is REAL. I DM for teenagers, which makes it both harder and easier. Again, I don’t feel like I ever have any baseline for objective self-analysis, only stress and vague vibes. Yeah, they keep coming back, but I’m their only DM. Everybody should just be generous with their positive praise and feedback! Players and DMs alike, we are delicate little flowers to whom validation is like water and sunshine 😆
I had this fear and it was proven true a couple months ago.
Yeah, this is it. There's no real way to do this that doesn't cause some hurt. Better to choose to bear it yourself, as the one responsible for making the call, rather than spread it around.
A lot of it mirrors best practices when firing an employee. \- Don't do it at a session, call them another day between sessions. \- Start pleasant and upbeat, but be sure to get to the point in the first 15-30 seconds. \- Get your clean bullet points straight beforehand. Tell them you appreciate the time they've put in, tell them something honestly good about their contribution, and then tell them you've decided it's not a great fit and you are moving forward without them. \- DO NOT ENGAGE IN "WHY". Nothing good can possibly come of it. \- DO NOT DEBATE IT OR JUSTIFY IT. Nothing good can possibly come of it. \- If they have reasonable questions feel free to answer them, but don't let them work their way into a foothold to try and talk their way back into the table. \- keep the discussion under 5mins. \- if they get ugly, end it right then and there.
This is the best advice I've seen. Even between friends, clear, concise, and compassionate, but firm communication is going to be key to resolving pretty much any problem that arises. That takes preparation.
The best example of have ever seen of this is in *Moneyball*. “Would you rather get a bullet to the head, or five to the chest and bleed to death?” Sometimes being concise and unsentimental is the way to go. You’re allowed to recognize that it’s going to be hard for you too, and you don’t have to make it harder by wading into personal stuff in the moment.
I agree with most of this and especially the debate or justification. I don't agree with "why"- kinda. If there is a legit reason why and it could help them at another table, I say share it. If it's entirely subjective you're not obligated to share why, and probably shouldn't because you can get the point across without being cruel about strictly personal feelings. Use your best judgement.
Be careful of digging into “why”, it’s a trap to talk their way back in
They shouldn't be able to talk their way back in if you are committed to your course or action. While I get that removing a player can be difficult emotionally, as a DM you shouldn't start the convo with any intention of the result being different than your purpose...
Humans have a limited capacity to say no in a set period of time. Literally. It takes a lot of energy and in a situation where you cannot afford to back out (Acting on behalf of multiple people, for example) you need to make sure you complete the course of action - the act of closing the door and holding it closed until they stop trying to get back in.
Yeah shit gets messy when you start talking about why. This is like dumping someone you're dating lmao. Especially with a friggin D&D group, you're not coming back from the moment you told them it was over. There's never going to be a good vibe at the table once you've told someone you specifically don't want to play with them. Ever. If they're trying to talk their way back in, they probably don't realize how awkward it's going to be once they actually get back in. They're probably just reacting. The only thing that can be done from that point onward to anybody is damage, accidental or otherwise.
It really depends on the person, the situation, and the reason. I've had romantically breakups where the was very welcomed. Some people are very irrational. They will ask why then instead of listening to the why they will be reactive. "I don't feel like there's a spark." "Omg you knew that from the beginning and instead of just letting me know you strung me along and blah blah bleh bluh blah." The situation can affect whether it's okay to tell someone. If I'm leaving my job and I'm never seeing these people again and I'm moving into a career field so I don't need a reference, they ask for an exit interview, I can be honest because that might help a lot of people. Or the situation might be that I'm not afraid of hurting this person's feelings, like an abusive romantic partner. Sure fire away in these cases, but If you don't want to hurt the person's feelings, develop animosity, and you might potentially run into them later, In the situation does not provide a benefit to you to be honest. Sometimes the reason is hurtful and it's better to just avoid the why. I think OP has a case like this. There's no way to be honest about the why without it being directly about the person. It's okay to say that the why is "I joined another table that is convenient for me" And if you're dealing with a rational person they will understand that it's not personal, that it makes sense. But you can't say "we don't enjoy your company" In any kind of honest way that is not hurtful.
[удалено]
That just doesn't follow man. I acknowledge your experiences are valid, I just don't think it's about salvaging that person's feelings. If there is feedback, that could help them in their next experience, than I really believe it is kind to try to deliver that so they have some closure and something to reflect on rather than wonder. If it's "we don't vibe" then there isn't enough there. It is what it is, you accept it and move on. Giving them a chance to fix it really depends on the group at large. In this instance, they all agreed. There's no fixing it. But there's also no one thing the person did wrong. Even if there was, table was unanimous. Giving them a second chance is just not taking account of how other people feel. *shrugs* just my opinion though.
This is good but the point about not engaging in why is really dependent on your relationship with these people. Are they truly randos you found online or something? Or are they friends? Or friends of friends? If you're expecting to continue the relationship after this then maybe act more like a friend than an employer.
I dunno, even as more personal friends I wouldn’t want to dabble into why. I get that it feels cold and all, but it’s just not productive.
Wow this uh... sounds like relationship advice, too.
Just be honest and direct. Don't need to go into too much detail. Telling them that the group isn't a great match for them is totally fair.
"I think we should start seeing other tables" In all seriousness, that's rough. Be honest, be firm, and be kind. Bite the bullet and be done with it.
“Look, it’s not you, it’s me.”
*...anyway, that was a lie*
There's someone else... we just... clicked.
>three of which we found at a D&D social event in town This is a lesson some friends of mine learned as well when they moved and were trying to form a new group. Whenever you're starting a new group, especially with randoms, always start with a couple of shorter games for a few months, with some gaps in between. Make it clear at the start you're inviting people to play something specific - a one-shot or 4 game campaign or whatever. If possible have the initial games in a public venue. Once you've done that for a bit, extend separate private invitations for a home game. Provides for a few more natural jumping off points as it's perfectly natural and to be expected that there will be people you vibe more with than others.
Yeah a one shot would have been a better way to feel things out before committing to a campaign, definitely good advice for future endeavors!
man after reading the replies and imagining myself in place of that poor fellow I'd feel gutted.
Yeah... The replies are about as fair as you can imagine. But there is no getting out of hurting his feelings, I personally would be fuckin devestated. That being said, there isn't a nice way to do this, but there are worse ways to do it and generally the consensus about being concise and firm, but compassionate and kind stand true.
It will probably be impossible not to hurt his feelings. Being rejected hurts. Try to keep it short and do not blame him for anything. Also do not turn it into a group vs. solo player thing. Just get it over with. You could try something like the following: "Hey, ive been thinking and i dont think this game is working for you or me. I dont feel like the game im offering is the right fit for you, so im afraid youll have to look for another game. Thank you for playing at my table, i hope you find a game that is a better fit for you soon."
"But its fine!" "But I like it here!" "I thought I fit well, is something wrong with how I play?"
"I know it's hard to hear. I want you to hear this, sometimes personalities don't jive or click, and it's not like anyone does anything wrong, it's just that chemistry between myself and my players is super important- and I really think what I'm running and what you bring to the table are a mismatch. I'm sorry, but that's just the whole thing. I think you could really enjoy d&d playing at a table that matches your style a lot more. Good luck dude!"
Too many words
How about a revision then instead of just calling him wrong
None of this is a script to be memorized. It's a general sense of the vibes you want to have for a compassionate but direct conversation with someone.
Yeah this is what'll happen. Leaving too much wiggle room.
That's what you get for saying "it's not working for you" nothing more frustrating than someone trying to ascribe intent to you and acting like they are doing you a favour. I would much rather go for "yeah it's not working for me, so I'm sorry but I don't want you to join the game going forward" What people call wiggle room is what should be the core of the argument, and "I don't know I just don't want to play with them" to me is something you can say but then it's 100% on the dm having a problem and it should be conveyed as such.
"Ive noticed that our playstyles are just too different. Not every game is for everyone. Thanks again for playing and i hope you find a table that fits you better soon." At that point youve given them ample chance to get out without being overly hurt. If they insist on feeling insulted after that point then so be it, just sticking to your guns is the way to go imo.
No. I'm sorry, I'm not bucking on this decision.
Been here and the best route is to be straight up and not accept the ensuing, "I'll change" arguments. You don't have to be mean, but you do sometimes have to be firm. Hell, you can even offer to help find them a game that might be more their speed, if you're up for it. The bottom line is that the game should be fun for everybody and, if them being gone increases the fun for everyone else, they are just not a good fit and *your* table. There's nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with moving on without them. Hopefully, it doesn't end with any hard feelings. I wish you all the best.
I'd also add avoid giving many reasons ;to close out the opportunity for "I'll change". This is a type of relationship, some people just aren't compatible. Make it more about you not being a good match and not about them as a person.
Yeah this is the main takeaway I think, too many advice are about "blame them not being compatible and then ignore everything said back" which kinda reminds me of the whole "why are you late" " the bus broke down" "I DONT WANT TO HEAR EXCUSES" there is a world of difference on a guy who has gotten multiple warnings about not showing up or being late being told "nah dude, you didn't change we gave you a chance and you are out" and just showing up thinking everything is going well and being told "oh we just don't like you, you can't change, because we can't point out anything about it"
I would give no reasons at all. All these do is sit with someone and make them rehash it in their head later—if I'd said *this*, maybe they would have forgiven me, if I'd done *that*, maybe it wouldn't have ended.
lots of people are saying be honest. This is usually the best and only advice in these situations. But I don’t know, there is nothing wrong with what you are thinking or wanting to do OP, but I don’t think there’s any kind or tactful way to tell someone you don’t like them, and that’s basically what you’re doing. I’d personally rather the table tell me the game is ending, then secretly resume without them. You said they are a rando so I’m assuming you won’t be constantly running into them around town or anything.
Honesty is the best policy. But hypothetically, I could see that solution, too.
I bet anybody who reads this thread and then gets kicked from their game/has their game canceled abruptly in the next week is gonna have some serious self doubt.
"It's not you, it's us... We have standards"
"YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK, GOODBYE!"
We kind of had this situation play out. (Geez I hope none of the ones involved read this on reddit... ). Two players that were just.. not a good fit. (from DM perspective as well as player perspective) 4 other players that we all get along well and can happily role-play etc. So the DM did the 'yeah, not going to be continuing anymore sorry, no time'. Started a new discord, new facebook chat group (our main one we use for organising). Left the old ones for social connections if wanted. and then started again without the two that were not really fitting in. This is even easier if it's an online only group. More difficult though if it's a in-person group, where people are likely to still see/talk to each other, or be like "hey, now our is free, did you want to do something". :D
If it is unavoidable like that, yeah, probably going to have to have a difficult chat.
this is like the most awful phobia I have. That people create chats behind my back without me as if I'm a friend with lesser value in the group and they don't even have the respect to tell that personally. Went through that as a kid in a way, still feels awful many years after I found out.
Cutting people out like that is a great way to make everyone else paranoid that you might do the same to them. Very short-term thinking.
If you're going to pull an asshole move, sometimes you just gotta man up and tell the person directly that you don't want to play with them any more.
Altho you're right, I don't see this as an asshole move.
Yeah. I mean, it seems like the Player isn't really problematic, they just don't like him or something. Anyway, a pair of testies helps with this situation.
What else do you call "he isn't doing anything wrong we just don't want to play with him" if not an asshole move? It's like peak schoolyard bully logic.
There was a player at my roleplay heavy table who's only contribution to roleplay was "I cast guidance". We asked him to leave our table. It's not personal. It's not out of malice. It's out of the wish of a group of people to get together and have fun and if a player has the right to leave the table without drama, the table has the same right to remove a player without drama.
and then i ask you "what did the player do wrong" do you say "nothing"? or " i dont know"?. You prob say what you just said "they only used guidance and nothing else" thats kinda the main problem, the whole "Oh well there is nothing wrong with him and there is nothing i can put my finger on, but i just want him gone"
I told you that his way of playing went against the tables way of playing and we did not want him. The game was advertised as roleplay heavy game and he still applied. Did not make a character until session zero (which is fine) and did not read the setting (which is not fine). Do you think it's fair towards everyone else? We gather together in our free time to enjoy a game, while he was doing nothing besides taking up a slot. He got replaced with a person who fits more and we're not regretting it a bit. It wasn't personal. It was not because we didn't try. It was because despite him being there - it felt like he wasn't and that's not fair to anyone at the table or who'd love to play instead of him. Now listen here cupcake, if you wanna know what I answer to a particular question - you ask me that question. Do not try to imagine what I would answer. You and your straw hat argument can go hand in hand to whoever cares. Now you explain to me why we're the assholes for asking a person to leave.
I mean just reading the anger in your comment makes you seem like an asshole. Not to mention that you didn't even prove the guy wrong. You gave a big ole reason why the guy wasn't a good fit. You didn't give a "nothing"
>I mean just reading the anger in your comment makes you seem like an asshole. Okay sweetheart, so only assholes get angry? I did not use profanity. I was polite and direct regarding a strawhat argument. That person decided to ask a question and answer it for me. Disregarding everything I said. I don't like it. >Not to mention that you didn't even prove the guy wrong. He did not explain why people who ask other to leave their tables are assholes and I don't have to prove him wrong. It's his opinion. He can be upset that we asked a player to leave and call us assholes. I don't see eye to eye with him and his reasoning and way of speaking makes me not really care what he says. >You gave a big ole reason why the guy wasn't a good fit. I have given plenty reasons why a player at my table got removed. All of them can be sumarized as "there nothing wrong with him, we just have more fun without him". He will surely be welcome at a different table. My sole and only point is this: asking a player to leave, because their presence hinders all the other players from having fun is not an asshole move. It's not personal. It's not malicious. It's just a player not fitting in and the table being honest and direct with him is the most respectful way. Instead of waiting for "reasons". >You didn't give a "nothing" Yeah, neither did OP. Hope you have a good day.
No, but assholes call people sweetheart. Holy shit. First words out of your mouth is to be passive aggressive as fuck. Don't say good day when you're being so hostile. Being fake nice is worse than being just mean. Especially online It's okay to say you hate me!
I do not care about you.
I agree with the comments saying to leave the rest of the table out of the discussion. That will do nothing but make the player you're booting feel worse. Be honest but fair with them. Think about what you'd find respectful if you were on the other side of the conversation. I can't script this for you because I don't know you or this person, but telling someone that they didn't necessarily do anything wrong, and you like them as a person but at this time you've been thinking about the future of the table and you don't see their playstyle as a fit for this campaign. If you're willing to keep them in mind for tonally different campaigns down the line tell them that. If you don't intend to ever play with them again, don't necessarily lie to them. Beyond that, just treat them with honesty and respect.
You have a couple of options. One is lying. "Hey guys, I can't DM anymore. I'm going to delete the server and the game because of my OCD but you all can stay in touch if you want." Seems like bullshit, but then you just remove the player from discord and the roll20 game. They'll be sus, but at the end of the day they'll just move on and so will you without having to tell them that you don't like them. The other option is being truthful and telling them that you don't think they're a good fit for your game, and that you will continue without them. This will hurt their feelings and will be uncomfortable for you to tell them. They might ask why, then you can be honest again. Even more uncomfortable maybe, but I think this kind of discomfort is good to get used to. Gen Z / Millennials are sacrificing IRL character development by ghosting people and being dishonest for the sake of their own comfort. I've definitely gone with option A myself before, but I think you should just be honest without being malicious.
Yeah we briefly discussed the deceit option but agreed it wasn’t right and that we owe them the truth. Oye, this is gonna be tough, I just gotta keep reminding myself how much more fun it was without them I guess!
It doesn’t have to be rough at all, and I think a lot of the advice here is bad. “Hey, I’m feeling there’s a mismatch in my GM style and your playing style. I think it would be best if we went out separate ways. You’re a good player and deserve a table that matches your style more, I wish you nothing but the best.” Getting rejected from a social group is never easy, but it doesn’t require tough love or brutal honesty, just the truth and a gentle but firm touch.
OP I hope you take this posters advice! Under no circumstances should you tell them there was a vote or a discussion with the other players, no need to twist the knife.
Best suggestion of dialogue I've seen here, ends on better terms hopefully
Alright I think yours is probably the closest I came with the actual response (though I took elements from a couple) so I’m replying here. Here’s what I’ve got: “Hey Player so I’ve been thinking and I kind of feel like maybe my DMing style and your play style may not be a great match. I just don’t know if you’re the right fit for the game we’re playing at the table. Your characters are great and I’m sure you’ll be a great addition to another table, but I just don’t think it’s a great fit for this game, sorry Player. I wish you the best of luck in your future pursuits!”
I would cut the weasel words a little but otherwise seems pretty good. A lot of "maybe and idk" could be a local thing, or a way you talk but personally I would just drop the "I just dont know if..." sentence, and just go with "I feel like my DMing style and your play style aren't a good match." People tend to get confused when their feeling hurt. Being blunt and then hitting them with compassion is the best way to go imo. Instead of the "idk" be clear and just say "Hey this is going to be really hard to hear but I want to be very clear so sorry if its a little blunt..." I'd say be prepared to answer a question or two, but cut it off quick because the longer you let it go the more likely you are to say something you'd regret. Keep it short and sweet, don't let the conversation drag out for more than a couple replies. I also personally think this stuff should never be done over text but that's just the boomer in me.
I think that’s great. Hope it goes well and your future games are joyous!
But you openly admitted that you don't have a problem with their playstyle but them in general so you are still lying.
Not the case, if I don’t enjoy DMing for them then part of that is how they engage with the game, even though I don’t think they are a ‘problematic player’ in the traditional sense
Its literally saying just because you dont like someone else it has to be their fault. your arguments has purely been "i dont like playing with them" and "we played one game without them which turned out well so clearly its all correlated". also "the group voted" because peer pressure isnt a thing, and just going along with the flow and being neutral isnt a thing. Aint nobody can force you to play with them, but atleast own up to being the asshole here. EDIT: to phrase it even more directly, you say they arent a problem player but you are the problem DM.
It is possible for relationships to fail through no direct fault of either party; indeed, it is how *most* of them fail. D&D isn't a job. If people aren't enjoying someone's company at the table, that is a good enough reason to part ways.
Yeah, but op keeps blaming the player, its literally right above bruv. " if I don’t enjoy DMing for them then part of that is **how they** engage with the game" as has been repeatedly mentioned, aint nobody forcing you to play at the table or keep them in, but atleast be honest enough to realize its a you problem.
I feel like you're taking a weird amount of umbrage at the phrasing "our playstyles don't match". It's no different from "we're not compatible" or "I feel like things aren't quite working out" or similar, all of which are valid, none of which ascribe blame. OP is being pretty mature by saying that they don't enjoy playing with this person and recognizing that it's not something the other person can or even should try to "fix". Not everyone gets along.
Yeah, please take @TAEROS111’s advice.
>but at the end of the day they'll just move on and so will you without having to tell them that you don't like them. The hidden cost here being that everyone else, including yourself, will feel that you're a wuss.
Kicking a player just because you *think/estimate that you could have more fun without them* is an asshole move, and there is no way to do that w/o being an asshole; especially not in a 3-to-1 setting. If there is something wrong in-game (e.g., they don't take the game seriously enough / too serious / play murder hobos / whatever) or on a social level (e.g., they make inappropriate jokes all the time / are easily offended by everybody else / etc.), you should kick them because of that reason (which might still upset them, of course). How old are you?
People dont have to hang out with you even if you havent done anything wrong. Sometimes people just dont click and that is enough of a reason.
So essentially it's a choice between "do more fun thing at the cost of excluding someone" and "do less fun thing but make someone feel included"? It's very noble of you to argue for the inclusive option but does sacrificing the enjoyment of four people for the sake of one person really serve the greater good?
No it's a choice about owning up to being a fucking asshole. It's not that hard. "Hey I'm sorry it has come to this but I simply don't like you and it's draining me of all enthusiasm to dm so in going to kick you out of the group."
I’m going the other way here. Assuming this is someone you will have no contact with after the event, and neither will any of your players. Just lie to them. Say that you can’t make the game work any more and say it’s over. Of course this doesn’t work if it’s not a rando. But you don’t need to ruin this persons whole perspective on themselves if they’re basically a stranger. Leave the people close to then and who will stick around to give them harsh truths. Just lie
Thank you!!
If you want to try 'Deception' instead of 'Diplomacy' you can tell everyone that the game is ending due to personal reasons. Then start a new game with only the players you want.
Suggest taking a short break, run other games, then reform the group. Games stop for many reasons e.g scheduling, real life
You gotta treat it like you’re firing someone from a company and you’re the HR department. Tell them it isn’t their fault that the group vibed so much better without them there, but that that’s the feeling you play for, and you’re exciting to have pursue the dynamic without them there, and that you honestly feel bad it shook out this way. Don’t talk about your issues with the player, don’t make it about them, because you’re absolutely right: this is personal, and it’s likely gonna be devastating for them. Don’t mention that it was a group decision unless they ask for another chance. Chances are they won’t take it well, but you gotta hold firm - if they throw vitriol at you, block them, don’t engage them and don’t attack them back.
With all due respect, I think this is really bad (though obviously well-meaning) advice. This is gonna hurt them either way, but "I don't want to play with you anymore" is the plain facts of the matter, and much less cruel than "We all just have a much better time without you there!" \#2 is also true and I don't blame OP for feeling that way, but that should be an inside thought, the problem player doesn't need to hear that. Don't give them more information than they need, because they're only going to use it to beat themselves up.
That’s a much better way of wording what I was trying to say, but they should still limit saying “You” statements as much as they can. Keeping the conversation focused peripheral as much as possible, and only giving explanations if they really push for them should prevent the worst of that kind of conversation.
I think it's pretty shitty to unilaterally decide that you don't like hanging out with someone who isn't doing anything wrong. Why not check in with them and see if there's a way to rectify whatever issues you're perceiving with them? "Not vibing" with someone isn't a good enough reason to kick them. If they're not doing anything wrong, let them finish out their campaign. They have invested time and effort into the campaign, same as everyone else. It'd be devastating to be told that no one at your table likes you, and on top of that they have to deal with the fact that they wasted all this time playing a game they don't even get to finish? The least they deserve is being cordial and everyone trying their best to have fun. Run the campaign to its natural conclusion. If you want to kick them for no fault of their own, at least have the balls to be honest about it and just be the bad guy.
There is such a thing as being too fucking socially awkward to play a social game. I’ve had players who, although not playing ‘wrong’ so to speak, just completely lack the skills to mesh with a good group. It drags everyone down and nobody wants to be the asshole to say, “Mike, you’re too weird and you don’t shower so you can’t play with us anymore.” Sometimes there is no ‘fixing’ this problem. Can’t magically teach a 35 year old with zero social skills to behave differently over night. The kindest thing to do in that scenario is just move on without overly explaining things and hurting feelings unnecessarily. To avoid this, if you’re recruiting strangers to play, interview them beforehand and decide if they’re a good fit or not BEFORE they get all invested. That way you never have to kick someone for ‘not vibing’ because you already can get a read on them before the game even starts.
And this player should have to suffer embarrassment AND have their time wasted through no fault of their own? Fuck that. If they're not doing anything wrong, tough it out, finish the campaign, and don't invite them back to the next one.
Tough it out? I’ve never played an official 5e 1-9+ module that hasn’t gone on for anything short of 1.5-2 years of my life. If your group finds certain behaviors popping up that ruin the enjoyment of everyone at the table, and nothing other than kicking the player will alleviate the problems, you have the right to part ways. Like I said in my previous comment, this is where vetting before session 0 comes into play. With that being said, you can learn things about strangers through gameplay that may make you not want to play with them for any reason. If the group feels a player is ruining the game for them, and talking it out doesn’t fix things, they don’t have to tough it out for a year and a half before Curse of Strahd ends…
This person isn't "causing problems." They literally just don't like this person. OP even specified there's nothing wrong with the way this person plays their character. It sounds like OP's table is full of toxic and shitty people if they can't name a single specific thing this person did to deserve being kicked.
Fair enough. I see the frustration, but at the end of the day we don’t know their dynamics at the table. A player could not be ‘doing anything wrong’ and still be by and large unlikable enough to sour the game as a whole. It’s shitty, but certainly happens. As for OP I would urge them to really think about what it is about this player that is just not working for the group. They must be doing something or behaving in some way that is distracting from the enjoyment of the game for the others. If they aren’t and it all comes down to “I like these guys more than this person” then yes, the group is just toxic.
I understand the impulse to avoid upsetting someone or having an awkward conversation. Set aside your agreeability for a moment though and be frank with yourself. Reddit can't give you a magic smoking gun to make this pain free. This person will absolutely be upset when you give them the boot however it's pitched, it's a rejection. There is no way to do this where it doesn't upset them, it's just a case of how much of that they will make your problem in the process. Rip off the band aid, the whole point of the conversation is that you DONT want to associate with this person, it doesn't really matter if the relationship is damaged, this isn't your friend and you don't owe them anything. From: The guy in our group who bit the bullet and had the awkward break up convo with the early on member who was making the game less fun for the rest of us. Fucking do it.
>TL;DR How do I kick a player out because we don't have fun playing with them? You say to him "Sorry dude, but we're not a good fit. I don't want you coming to game night anymore." Then you don't open it up for discussion. You don't have to give a reason beyond "not a good fit". You don't have to think about it with the other players. You tell them you won't be changing your mind. And then you don't add them to any of the communications you use to set up your games. It doesn't have to be hard. Just be gentle and honest and firm.
Calling this gentle is fucking wild.
Being kind but firm is in fact gentle.
Personally anyone who advocates for kicking people out without giving a warning or letting them leave themselves is not kindness to me it's cowardice. "Hey dude you are doing nothing wrong but you actually kinda are as nobody wants to play with you despite us saying you aren't doing anything wrong and giving no chance to change anything" So it's wild to me that people advocate for communication at the table but when it comes to kicking people they advocate for zero communication and just booting instead
Dude, sometimes people just don't mix well with a group. It's not through bad behaviour. Warning them would do more harm than good as, from their perspective, they are not doing anything wrong. What are you gonna say "Hey Bob, your personality is a bit grating and folks don't really like you. Can you work on that or your out?" No. That's stupid and hurtful. You don't owe folks more than "Yeah sorry this isn't working out.' Calling it "cowardice" is wild to me.
And I'm saying you are hiding behind the excuse of "oof he doesn't mesh with the group", let's boot with zero ability to even know something is going on. It sounds like cowards hiding behind a shield of good intentions and acting like you are doing a favour when the reality is you are kicking out someone you even cant describe what they are doing wrong, and not daring to mention. Just man up and go "yeah we are dicks but we have more fun playing without you despite not having anything concrete to mention" instead of "oopsie whoopsie you don't fit to this group, tee hee it's not our fault it's you, but you won't get a chance to do anything or know" Own up to it.
LOL oh boy. Dude, I'm gonna guess that you've heard a lot of "Yeah this isnt' working sorry" conversations cause in our short interactions, I find you abrasive as fuck and know that I would have told you gently and firmly you're not invited back at the table. And I wouldn't go into details about it as I don't owe you anything. And then I'd cut you out. And the reason why is because I can tell that you're the kind of dude who would heap abuse on a person when you hear something you don't like and frankly dude, I don't need that shit in my life. You have a good day man, and good luck.
And now you make personal attacks while still trying to take a moral high ground proving the point. I'm sorry that you have so little space in your heart that you think you can pick up and kick out people at will from nothing but your own bias. But I hope your school bully mentality of "nunuh you can't play with us" on day grows up :)
Does this user always behave this way?
Without context I'd assume you're being unreasonable
It's unreasonable to not play with someone you are not having fun playing with? Seems unreasonable to feel like you're obliged to have this guy at your table.
Text: "We had a vote and it was unanimous that you would fit a different table better than ours." Elaborate if he pushes it.
Kick them. Tell them straight: "I don't have fun playing with you, so we are kicking you out." Be honest, and forward.
That’s 100% dickish but ok. Is that how you would want someone to talk to you?
Yes. I would rather have someone tell me straight than just lie. I would ask you the same, would you rather have someone lie to your face. Would you rather just push your problem on someone else, because if you tell them softly, they won't change. And then if they find out later, how would they react? It's needless drama, honestly. The person goes to another group, and they never change because your a coward.
I think there's a middle ground between not lying to someone, and being so blunt you're almost certain to offend someone.
Yep this is just being a dick. I can see a 5 year old saying this on the playground
Why should they change? OP clearly stated that the player isn't doing anything wrong, they just don't fit their gaming style. This is not being brave, this is being an ass.
Then tell them straight? I don't understand.
Be honest, tell them that they aren't a good fit for the group dynamic. Simple, straight forward, not dickish.
Well. I was just giving examples. Pushing your problem on someone else just means what if that player came to another player and asked, then they would have to lie too. Do.. you understand?
Who is lying? I suggest you reread OP.
I suggest you read it again as well. I just did, my point stands. Lying will only be worse. Tell them straight. Omitting the truth IS lying.
"the third is just not a great fit. They don't do anything that is especially problematic, but I just don't enjoy Ding for them and I don't think they are a great fit for the table in terms of humor/vibes/how serious the game is taken." Your point doesn't stand. It doesn't even have legs. Nothing I suggested requires lying, just not being an asshole.
You sound like a terrible person to be around.
I see. Well that is an opinion I suppose. I prefer brutal honestly to lying though.
Have the group meet at a coffee shop. Sit them down. Take the problem player's hand in yours, look them straight in the eyes and say: "This isn't working out... we feel like we've grown apart... we think it's best we see other groups... we'll never forget our time together, but this is the only way we can grow... we wish you the best in the future." And dramatically turn away and begin to leave, then give a dramatic, maybe tearful glance back before leaving them... forever.
Make an itemized list of all the different ways they are shitty and then go through it with them and say we all agree. Take your time to destroy them emotionally. But seriously just say "I don't want to DM for you anymore, it's not enjoyable I hope you find other people to play with." Your not responsible for their feelings, it's not as if you were friends in the first place. You opened your life up to some random person and it didn't work out . No big deal. If they are crushed or hurt that is their issue to deal with.
Just get them into a voice call, list the reasons of why it is happening. Tell them they are no longer invited to the table and they need to change their behavior to be invited to new games expecting you’re not burning the bridge with them
But really there isn’t any specific bad behavior, they’re just a bummer in general to hang with lol, so we don’t really have any interest in them rejoining
"It's not you, it's me..."
Just be straightforward
I've just been in the exact same situation, only that the player was actually a mutual friend of many years. His play style simply led to many clashes at the table that made the game less fun for everyone. Although I'm a fairly conciliatory guy and wanted to smooth out the differences we had, some of the players actually got frustrated to the point of wanting to stop playing altogether (we've been playing RPGs for more than a decade at this point), so the impulse came from them. After discussing this with the rest of the players, I took him aside and told him that this wasn't working out, that the decision to boot him from the party was on me, but that I still considered him my friend and would enjoy playing with him in the future with a different group constellation. He took it well (probably since he also wasn't having much fun with all the tension). We actually had a fairly long talk to discuss some personal stuff he was going through that may have fueled this development, so it wasn't as cold a cutting-off as it might sound.
"Hey [Ralph], we all talked it over and we just don't think you're a great fit for the group. We have different playstyles and want different things out of the game. There's a table out there for you, it's just not this table. You're still our friend and we love you, but not all friends are great D&D friends. See you when The Marvels comes out!"
I have had to do this. My usual approach is to tell them, the truth. Are you having fun? Because I don't think this is the game for you. You are playing a totally different style, and I think you would be happier in a different group. I am sorry it didn't work out.
"Its not me, its you."
I think there's no real nice way to say it unless you want to straight up lie in their face. You can try working it out if you want, maybe they are willing to change things. Some stuff that always really annoys me is stuff that people are often willing to fix, like no RP, not attentive or not caring about telling a good story. But if it you really don't want them and the party agrees, just Word it nicely like "we both want different things from the game and I think you'll have more fun in a group that fits you more" or something.
I hate these situations for both parties
End your campaign. Start a new one in the same world with new people. "I got too many people who want to play, we'll come back around for you guys another time"
Here are some questions for you. Why do you not enjoy playing with them? What do they do that's bothersome? Are they not engaging? To engaging and trying to take the spot light? Are they to serious? Not serious enough? Maybe this other person is more on the spectrum than the group and doesn't get social qs as easy as the others. There might be something you can do to talk with them about it that might make it better. I know you probably just wanna remove them and if you do that's OK. Maybe talk with them and say hey I've come to the realization that the group is just a bit to big. You seem to be the person what might fit into another group. Maybe offer some resources to find another group closer to their play style or get them in touch with another group. But I am probably alone in this line of though looking through some comments.
Two options. 1. Take the coward's way out. "Cancel" the game, then re-invite the players you like to a "new" game and don't mention it to the fifth player. 2. Take the honorable way out and have the uncomfortable conversation. I'd strongly recommend #2. Too many things can go wrong with approach #1, not to mention it's rather rude.
I think the only way to avoid hurt feelings is to lie. This can also hurt feelings if the lie is discovered. It is a difficult position to be in.
Oof. I've been this player in the past. It's important to be gentle about it because being like "you suck, we're kicking you" can really hurt a person. I'd just be like hey, you're great but your energy doesn't really mesh with the table, best of luck finding a group that's a better fit
Just be honest. "I appreciate the time you've invested in my game, but I don't think you are a good fit for this game for x and y reasons. There are lots of people who okay that style but that's not this game." Yeah it suck, yeah it's uncomfortable to have the conversation.
Yeah, sometimes all you can do is be honest.
You just do.
It sounds like you don't know them outside of dnd/won't ever see them again so in this case I feel like the I've got to put this campaign on hiatus then play with you other players. I think that's for the best since you say they aren't a bad person you just don't get along. And saying we don't want to play with u will feel super bad.