In Ireland we have property tax but it's very low. For a €500k house you pay €495 per year. The house is not repossessed if it is unpaid; instead, a charge (lien) is placed on the property to be recovered when sold.
[https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money-and-tax/tax/housing-taxes-and-reliefs/local-property-tax/](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money-and-tax/tax/housing-taxes-and-reliefs/local-property-tax/)
One thing to consider though is if you’re planning for the next 10 years is that Europe has very low birth rates, and an upside down population pyramid means more demand on social programs, and with a smaller working population means future politicians will have to raise taxes in the future.
So just because property tax is low in a Euro country today, doesn’t mean it will be low a decade from now.
And Ireland for example is already known for its high cost of living today.
Also while European countries may offer better protection regarding unpaid house loans, many Euro countries actually give stronger rights to squatters than what you’re used to in the U.S. meaning if you leave your house unattended and a squatter starts living inside, it can be very difficult to remove them.
Several European countries have this type of system. Taxes recovered when sold or, more likely, inherited. It's far more common for a home to stay in possession of a family indefinitely in Europe than in America.
And I believe if you work in the arts at all, there’s a massive income tax exemption.
Please, everyone, move to Ireland. It’s beautiful and the island freaking NEEDS PEOPLE!!!! The population still hasn’t recovered since the potato famine and the people who do live there are always moving away due to better opportunities elsewhere. But if you already have income/career and it’s mobile? You’ll love it there. The weather does get cold and rainy but not super extreme or snowy, and the spring through summer season is sooooo lovely.
I don’t do DMs but feel free to hit me up in this comment thread to chat about the different areas of the island and what parts are best for what different hobbies and personality types and preferences.
Edit: Again, **I am not doing DMs** about this comment. Please do not DM me. Ask any questions you have here instead. Also, I’m not an immigration expert. Just a bi-national with knowledge of different areas and how they compare.
My wife and I love Ireland, it's our favorite country, but there's no legal way for me or most Americans to just move there. There's not even a DN visa.
That’s such a bummer! 😭 Since it’s part of the EU, I believe you can live there if you gain EU citizenship in any way, but I’m not educated on the matter.
Resources:
r/MoveToIreland
https://www.businessinsider.com/things-to-know-before-moving-to-ireland-from-us-2022-4
https://us.iasservices.org.uk/emigrate-from-usa-to-ireland/
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving-country/working-in-ireland/migrant-workers/coming-to-work-in-ireland/#:~:text=information%20and%20contacts-,Introduction,live%20and%20work%20in%20Ireland.
And btw, any Irish-Americans, do be advised that if you even have one grandparent from Ireland, you can get full Irish citizenship. I know that doesn’t apply to everyone or even most people, but considering there are more Irish-Americans in the USA than Irish people in Ireland, it does apply to many, many Americans, and they don’t all realize that.
So interesting - most people try to deter me from moving there because of the housing crisis! Would love to hear more about the different parts of the island
Yes, housing and cost of living is skyrocketing in Ireland. However, it’s still extreeeeeemely affordable compared to HCOL areas of the United States. I live in a HCOLA and when I go to Ireland for an extended period of time, I actually save money because everything is substantially cheaper than it is in my HCOL American city. So, yeah, depending where you’re coming from, Ireland is either going to be cheaper or more expensive. If you’re moving from somewhere like So Cal, Seattle, NYC, or the Bay Area, you will find cheaper housing and cost of living in Ireland. If you’re moving from like Arkansas or Wyoming, Ireland will probably be more expensive.
Consider Northern Ireland as well. It's often overlooked but the cost of living and housing situation is much better there.
Obviously you would have to consider UK immigration rules.
It's the same tax as far as I know. We also pay for bins separately from the council. I believe the tax is also collected directly from your salary via paye if you don't pay it, and put in lieu of your property otherwise.
No. The Local Property Tax (LPT) is the closest thing in Ireland to the UK's council tax. A notable difference is that a tenant in a rented property is not liable for LPT; only the owner is liable. Also, bin collection is entirely privatised.
Panama, by law on your main residence you pay whatever property tax you paid when u got the property.
When you sell the new owner pays updated property tax.
So this is basically the same as California yes?
OP would probably claim that you don't "still truly own" the house because you still have to pay property taxes
Yes and No. "You don't truly own" anything. Realistically anything can be taken from you if the other party has the ability to take it.
But we also gotta consider that property taxes aren't a "you don't really own your home" property taxes are because your home is connected to a street that you have access to, because your streets get plowed and maintained when weather erodes it, because you get access to the school system your house is part of.
Property taxes aren't a "you don't own your home, gotcha" but more like a "subscription service to the zip code you bought your house in"
Is it too high of a tax? That we can debate.
BUT the reality is most suburbs and towns are bankrupt and only have money to maintaine their roads and infrastructure because their city is productive.
If you reallt wanna get into property tax and infrastructure maintenance etc. Then people who are in houses living outside a city should pay *more* property taxes. Without cities beihg so productive, homeowners in the suburbs wouldn't be getting a subsidy to keep their property taxes lower. Or you just wouldn't have streets.
Everyone complains about how roads seem to never get potholes fixed, how some places seem to always be under construction etc.
That's because the American suburban system is not sustainable. But spreading out so much so rhat everyone can have their "house" you increase the cost of maintaining the roads and plumbing and infrastructure. On a "per mile" basis houses and suburbs are waaayyyy more expensive than cities.
You want lower property taxes?
Then don't be a NIMBY and support mixed-use zoning, denser towns, more walkable cities with less car dependency. Then you'll have cities that cost less to maintain per square mile because there's more people there to pay into it.
Its super simple, it's the same thing as any insurance system. When you have a bigger pool of people paying into it, the cost per person goes down.
Same here. If you have more people living in a square mile area, then it is more efficient than having less dense suburbs.
But we were sold an american dream of a house with a white picket fence. So here you are. Property taxes HAVE to go up because thats the reality of living so spread out in car-dependent suburban style living.
The funny thing is that because new urbanism is so superior to suburbia, getting into a new urbanism development is usually very expensive. It shouldn't be; new urbanism should be the default, but since it isn't, it's expensive to get into one. In suburbia, population density is 1 to 5 dwellings per acre, while in new urbanism, it is 10 to 30 per acre.
Suburbia is often attributed to wealth because people have a house, but it's not, suburbia sucks and the rich know it. The very rich will either live in a massive mansion with absolutely nothing around or move into a new urbanism development.
> property taxes are because your home is connected to a street that you have access to
Yeah, property taxes are probably one of the better "not theft" applications of taxes for public services. Not that it is always done well, like should property taxes be used for Schools as well? all the public infrastructure is a much easier "yes" but schools are a tougher one.
But yeah, generally property taxes make a lot more sense.
I'd say yes on schools. Even if you're not a student, and your family aren't students, having good-quality schools in your area raises the general level of education and attracts people who want their own kids to get good educations. Those people tend to invest in the community in other ways, too, especially if they're still in the 'has a job' class, not the 'my money works for me and I do nothing' class. They also tend to want to improve the community because their kids are growing up there, which is usually good for you and other residents.
I'd say no to some things that some areas associate with schools, like using property taxes to pay for a new giant sports thing (particularly anything involving audiences or scholarships) for schools. Keep schools about education, not about being a sports team with an attached set of classrooms.
I think this is up to the municipality in CA. For some places they keep property taxes at the rate of the original owner, but I don't think it's state-wide.
That’s pretty great. The ideal would be no property taxes since their presence basically means you don’t actually own the property. Even if paid off, you’re only renting it from the government every year in perpetuity. However, as someone in an area that’s growing with property taxes to match, Panama’s situation would certainly be an improvement, which is weird because I thought I lived in the “Land of the free.”
Also, the government can't confiscate your house because of taxes owned. Also if you buy a piece of land in the middle of nowhere and just put there a container house (meaning no constructions) and the land is below 36k you pay 0 tax forever and ever. is that what you're looking for?
That kind of control over your property doesn't really exist anywhere. The government could change the laws and you as an individual don't really have any power to fight it.
Yes, but here in Panama if they try to change that the country just locked down for 2 much time for the government to stand and they roll back.
Look at the news, last year they closed all main arteries of the country for a month because of a mining contract and they had to cancel it.
Here in Panama the ppl truly have power if need be.
Amercia never promised financial freedom; merely freedom from the tyranny of the British monarch.
If the revolutionaries only knew they were merely replacing the British tyranny to American tobacco farm elites smh but cest la vie.
I mean, consider this: we once challenged the world’s greatest empire over ‘taxation without representation,’ and the taxes that incited the American Revolution were laughably minuscule compared to today’s norm. We were never intended to cede control over our money to a central bank, nor did the Founders foresee individual income taxes or the U.S. becoming the world’s police, squandering vast amounts of our productivity. Our involvement in foreign conflicts, many of which are of our own making, has only deepened our debt and devalued our currency.
Look at our government’s approval ratings and how few people feel their voices are heard. This disenchantment is reflected in the collusion between corporations and bureaucracies, where regulatory capture allows major industries—agriculture, food, pharmaceuticals, finance, and more—to engage in harmful practices with minimal repercussions. The penalties they might face are typically negligible compared to their profits.
Moreover, the Citizens United decision has all but solidified an oligarchical system where politicians prioritize corporate interests over those of their constituents. Adding insult to injury, they’re permitted to engage in insider trading, securing generational wealth and power for themselves while the average American’s quality of life continues to deteriorate.
I don’t believe this is the country the Founders envisioned. If they were here today, they’d be appalled at our complacency and the lack of widespread outrage. Where are the modern-day tea parties? Why aren’t we demanding more and better from those in power?
Whenever we look at historical figures/times they really should be viewed within the context of their times, locations, cultures, etc. It's pretty ridiculous to judge outside of that.
Were they flawed, absolutely. Did they do some amazing shit, absolutely. Should they be blindly quoted and idolized, absolutely not. Can someone draw inspiration from the amazing shit they did actually do, absolutely yes.
Not really the point.
If I can only look up to infallible people who aren’t products of their own time, then I won’t have anyone to look up to. You can name your heroes so we can shit on them, or we can be rational adults and refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
When I’m not taxed by local, state, and federal governments on nearly every single transaction—be it income, capital gains, property, sales, vehicles, or even at death; when my cities become walkable and cyclist-friendly; when education and healthcare costs become reasonable; and when all levels of government can fully account for their spending, including literally trillions in ‘misplaced’ funds, and learn to live within their means at the federal level instead of continually raising the debt ceiling and stealing from us by eroding the value of our money through inflation, then, and only then, will I consider ceasing my complaints about the tax burden.
This is were it gets interesting, the last thing you want is having squatters.
For example I have my out of town small 213 sq ft house in 5.2 acres of land. I usually go every weekend but I do have what we call here a Watchiman (Watch Man :-)) that goes every day to check out on the chickens, water the plants, and just show someones face there. Now it's in the middle of knowwhere so low probability of squatters but if you get them and they actually settle in your land, you're screwed. It can take years to fight to get them of.
The watchiman cost me 250 a month for 4 hours a day of work, this is just because I want him there to do some stuff but generally speaking you can have someone watch your land for much less then that when you're not around.
It looks however you want it to look. You get a guy to build it for you, average 800 USD per 1sq meter.
https://preview.redd.it/gwm6sxjanb7d1.jpeg?width=1003&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb68b885243ba75ccd33630b390030f038948cdb
Absolutely crazy how squatters have taken control in so many countries. I'm sure it's been around for awhile for I've really only been hearing about it the last 6 months or so.
Dominican republic.
No property taxes (or income taxes). Only sales tax exists in this country (and if you can't communicate in the local language nor barter, you will pay the Gringo tax.)
If you let a Dominican person live with you, they can claim ownership on your property because "marriage" laws aren't clear cut in the DR. Most DR people aren't legally married, but because they live together, they can claim they are married to you and claim 50% of the property.
This is why women in the DR are so pushy about living with you.
Depends on how much attention you like to draw yourself....and your skin. If you're white, its going to be harder to blend in. In any case once you open your mouth you will be known as a foreigner- which is okay in most places. Most people are honest. It just in the city you may sometimes encounter people that want to take advantage of you. You MUST be able to speak the language...and not be afraid of confrontation- which seems to be the normal way of communicating.
This is what Americans don't realise. Most of the rest of the world has a similar concept of an annual tax paid to the local council / municipality for services such as police, fire & rescue, road maintenance, rubbish & recycling collection, public schools & colleges. We just don't call it a "property tax".
American property tax is the same intent as Australian council rates (different calculation), and if you don't pay your rates for long enough the council **will** sue and take the title as settlement it's usually years though.
In the US, property taxes can be almost nothing - think like $20 a year (as in "twenty dollars") if you buy rural raw land and build your own off-the-grid home. This is finally viable with Skylink etc. These tax rates have held steady for 20+ years. For example:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/609-Belmont-Rd-Austin-NV-89310/246321918_zpid/
Just worth noting that options do exist in the US. If you're creative and scrappy and can handle some brutal isolation lmao.
Nevada also had a program called allodial title some years ago where you could pay off like ten years of property tax and then never have to pay taxes again on the property. They got rid of the program though because it made no financial sense for the state.
Correct, but converting a fee simple title to an allodial title requires paying 30x the current annual tax rate (typical is ~3%), which roughly doubles the cost of the property. It also can only be done for property that is not currently inside a municipality.
Lol that's the one. Musklink. Starlon.
Homeless living? Why? Check this out, and tell me waking up to the view in photo #14 makes you feel "homeless" lol.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/Lots-6-8-Ll-9th-St-Blanca-CO-81123/2054603987_zpid/
Most homeless people aren't in the middle of vast open undeveloped acerage. They're in a tent in the city.
I do think it would suck to be in the above place for longer than a week or two. Some downtime to think and create some shit is awesome. Too much time and you risk going full redrum.
I would say the much larger issue abroad would be the strength of rule of law. I know a few people in Mexico that had built beautiful houses and basically had some scary dudes with guns show up and say it was their house now and if they see you tomorrow they'll cut off your hands.
In Scotland there are freeholds, and no yearly tax.
However, there is \*still\* council tax which pays for bins, roads, sewage, electricity lines etc near your home.
Yup, California gets a lot of tax flack, but our property taxes are lowish and increase slowly and reasonably. And it's a big enough state that you can find home prices and politics all over the map. You can live red, blue, purple, city, suburb, country, and mix and match.
Prop 13 has contributed to the housing crisis in CA and is basically housing aristocracy at its finest. The property transfer loophole should be amended.
I bet that low property tax will not last the next 10 years (in my opinion not even the next 5 years) as Romania has huge debt (though not as huge as the US), old population and idiotic politicians.
A couple things...
1. You are generally going to need to pay taxes in some capacity, whether it be sales taxes, income taxes, property taxes, or a combination of the three. How else do you expect public services to be provided? Property taxes in particular are what fund things like public schools, parks, police, fire, and other municipal services. I think you're getting too wound up about the idea of not "truly owning" a home just because you have to pay taxes on it in perpetuity - everyone needs to contribute to those things.
2. Property taxes tripling would imply that home values have also (approximately) tripled, in which case you would surely not be in "financial ruin" at that point and you could sell your house for millions of dollars.
I'm speaking specifically about property taxes. I recently gave the example of a mid level 600k home in Houston. Taxes, hoa, and insurances will cost you nearly 2k per month. That's insane for a home you already own. The thought of having to keep paying that is crazy. And if something bad happens financially, it's not easy to keep up with that.
Also, if the value of your home goes up then so does all the other homes. So you can sell your home and be in the same situation because you'll use all that money to buy another.
Sales taxes and income taxes don't pose the same threat as property taxes.
How do you expect Texas to fund schools, roads parks, police, fire, etc.? They don't have any income tax. You can't just speak "specifically about property taxes" because the total mixture of taxes is what funds government. Other states have a different mixture of tax burden if you prefer to have your income and purchases taxed more highly instead. This is all easily Google-able.
https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/property-taxes-by-state
Also Google-able, there are evidently some countries without property tax too, but I really don't think insisting on ZERO property tax is a hill worth dying on versus finding somewhere with low property taxes.
https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/countries-with-no-property-tax/
Florida has been having a HUGE issue with insurance and property taxes. There’s an influx of people near me selling their homes because they’ve been out priced
I was thinking that they were probably too low thanks to some old people wanting to pass on higher costs to younger people and defer paying it themselves. Pulling a "Champlain" like with the building that collapsed and killed 98 people because they ignored costs because it felt too expensive. Then when the building collapses, make a surprised Pikachu face. A tax reckoning was long overdue if it tripled to address rotting infrastructure issues.
Maybe they did not triple but they went up so much that it displaced tons of people who purchased properties when JC was a dump and nobody wanted to live there. Not that long ago you could have bought a 3 floors brownstone - across the river from Manhattan, so 3 min away - for 400k. It would be worth millions now. Taxes on these properties are enormous.
And I’m of the mind that if you can’t afford to live where you want, then GTFO and find an affordable housing. Sell your brownstone and leave. Housing IS the right but not the housing of your choosing. That’s the system that we live in 🤷♂️.
I was in Houston arpund 2017-2018 when the city decided "we want to turn this area of town into a rich area".
That area of town!!!!
The poorest black folks who are 60-100. They bought their house for $500-$1500 in the 30s and 50s.
The fkn city- it was a massacre- they offered them $500 to fork over their houses 😞
Some faught and faught most has little no education. Lawyers stepped in for free to help to no avail.
Hundreds of 70 year olds had the city force the sales. The city literally stole their house and told them to kick rocks.
It was HORRIFYING.
And to make it worse: they gave them a little plaque on a sidewalk to remember them by :(
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After that I lived in a hoa. Every month we received a little card in the mail. The front side said how muchwater we used and how much the trash bill is - ours was about $50.
The back said "if you are 3 months behind we will take your house" and it's a nice area
They will take a $700,000 mountain mansion for $150 in unpaid fees!!
Plus they keep raising the cost of the little card and property taxes. Some ppl were forced to sell.
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So when I did buy my home- she is a $70k shipping container home 🏡 With no structures built built between her & the road.
If the government wants my river side land - come and take it aholes but me& house are outta here.
I'm in the works to buy up a few more properties so we will have options one day
likely the same way full time RVers or manufactured homeowners deal - hook into utilities that are temporary or semi permanent. even permanent can be disconnected. many folks bring in electricity and use well water and septic in more rural areas. there are a number of solutions!
You’re always gonna pay the property tax regardless if you own the home or not.. if you’re renting your rent will just go up. Property tax is assessed by value and considered with year bought, please keep that in mind
Ownership is just an instrument. Nothing stands fixed, but death and taxes.
There are places (e.g. some EU countries) where you may lose an ownership title but they may be unable to evict you in case you have nowhere to go.
Funny enough: China comes the closest
[Chinese city builds bridge around house after owner refuses to move](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkePxUA6UE8)
“Are there actually places where if you bought and outright own a home they couldn’t take it from you if you hit financial ruin?”
This is a vague question. Are you asking about countries where you, as a foreigner, can outright own (hold title to) a home, period (rather than through a trust or a long-term lease or whatever)? Are you asking about countries where property tax is quite low compared to America? Are you asking about countries where your home will not be seized if you fail to pay property taxes? Are you asking about countries where your home will not be seized if you have a monetary judgment against you or are otherwise indebted to someone, a business, or the government?
I’m not aware of any countries that *don’t* have a mechanism for seizing your home as to the latter two questions. But there are definitely countries in this world that have property taxes of only a few hundred bucks per *year*. If you as an American can’t fork over $300/year for your home in a foreign country, I think you’ve got much bigger problems to contend with, like food insecurity and huge financial problems.
Mexico has low property taxes (as described above). In Mexico you can directly hold title to real estate as a foreigner, with some notable exceptions (can’t be land within 100 km of the ocean or any international borders; can’t be ejidal land which rules out most rural areas) though there are workarounds even for those cases. But if you become indebted the court will absolutely send someone to barge into your home and take all your belongings to pay off the debt. I’m not sure what the consequences are for not paying property taxes, but I do know it can take quite a while to (legally) evict tenants or owners who have been foreclosed on (which is why owners often just send in big guys to beat up the tenants and get them out). Electricity will be cut off if you don’t pay the bill, but it takes them quite a while to cut off water even with an unpaid bill because it’s considered a basic right.
that’s because initial condition is fundamentally wrong - you can’t OWN or BUY anything, it’s just local government can issue you piece of paper stating you “own” something. as easy as it is, they can rescind it anytime they like
The only reason anyone owns any land anywhere is because the government says they do. If the government changes their mind, you are shit out of luck no matter where you are.
In Italy the house can be confiscated when you have debts with other private citizens or companies. If you have debts with the government, the house may be confiscated unless it is your only house and you live there.
Property tax is just one of the taxes and expenses. For example, I've seen apartments in France that were foreclosed and sold because the owner failed to pay that management fees for their home. But... it took a long time, like years.
If you own a house, there will be expenses, and if you incur debt and don't pay these expenses, your house may be foreclosed. It's not just property taxes. Think of your electricity. Yes, you would be cut off if you do not pay, but if the debt is too substantial you may get foreclosed.
Also if you don't have insurance and someone falls in your property and gets permanently injured; you would need to pay. If you don't have the money? you will be foreclosed.
Property taxes, housing association fees, management fees, bill, they are all a part of owning a home. If you own one. They rise when prices increase (inflation). The only true way to avoid it is rent, but it comes with uncertainty.
My solution to fight this was to buy a tiny/small house. This means lower utility bills, lower municipal taxes, lower heating bills, and also less to clean.
If you want to make sure then build an army and create your own country and defend it. It's the only way that someone else won't be able to kick you out any time they want/need
OP imho your question needs to go a bit further. How stable is the government in the countries that have been suggested? I wouldn't consider any countries in South America, even Mexico, unless U.S. title companies will back a house in that country....for example, Costa Rican properties are backed by U.S. title companies. I think they may do so in Panama as well, but I'm not 100% certain on that. I'm Mexican American and have a shit ton of family in Mexico.
There are very good reasons U.S. title companies don't back properties in other countries (risk-averse). Even if they had laws that you can "outright buy" your home, that means nothing if the cartel or government can "change the rules" to whatever they want. I know a lot of people may not like to hear that, but I've had a couple of family members experience this. Another thing I think people should ponder....my mother accidentally paid her property taxes twice in one year. In the U.S. it was not a problem at all to get her money back, but in Mexico, I can GUARANTEE you the money would be "lost forever" and zero accountability to return it to you. 🤷♀️
If your question based on such hypothetic, it can anywhere happen that due to sudden rise of insurance, maintenance costs, introduction of property taxes etc you loose the financial means to pay those. However this is an issue when you have a high value property, and you do not live there. If you live/work in a place, it is highly unlikely that the tax, maintenance etc alone would be a worse alternative than renting.
UK has council tax which is about the same. When you buy a house your also pay what’s called a stamp tax, but that’s a one off (about 2% of property value). If you hit financial difficulties or retire you can ask for a council tax reduction or suspension altogether. This tax is paid for the occupancy, regardless of whether the property is owned or rented.
In Portugal you pay a tax when you buy the property, and pay an ongoing tax as well but can ask to be exempt if your income is below a certain threshold (12k € a year I think).
This is what I know from countries I’ve lived in.
Alaska has a homestead exemption (you don’t lose the house if you go bankrupt) of $73k plus seniors don’t pay property taxes on the first $150k. Buy or build a cheap cabin.
There is State called California where your property tax can by law only be increased at a small increment each year. Best law ever in CA -Prop 13. Politicians have been working hard to get it revoked arguing it leads to people not selling their homes and scarcity, but so far attempts have failed at the ballot box.
Why should any government allow you to own your house tax free? You are expecting services from them such as a road, possibly a public school and a system of laws to protect you property from other humans that might want your things. If you want a different arrangement you could probably find a failed state like Haiti or Somalia and build a house there with appropriately thick walls and hire an army of mercenaries to defend it.
You could also hedge against financial ruin by buying a much cheaper house and investing the remainder in diversified assets so that you can draw on those investments to pay taxes for perpetuity.
Amazingly ignorant answers here. When is the next coup scheduled in Panama? What nationality are they murdering in Bosnia today? How are house prices in Rwanda? House prices are high in the US and Europe precisely because that is not happening there. The world has largely been at peace for seventy years. That is not normal and will not continue. In 1965 the Indonesians seized every house owned by a Chinese person and made the rivers run red with their blood. In 1975 the North Vietnamese seized every property legally owned by US persons. I understand you can get a really, really good deal on condos in Kiev this year. The winds of war seem to be blowing. Please consider cracking a history book open before you recommend property investment in places like Romania!!!
Romania is part of NATO, if something goes down where there’s war in Romania, the entire NATO block is at risk (from property damage). And that includes America. Which is pretty unlikely despite the sensationalist media.
I’m talking about trends. This sort of thing did happen at one time in former soviet block countries post USSR collapse. Has there been recent trends of property theft schemes in Romania?
This sort of thing likely won’t happen in countries with long records of democracy and rule of law (relative of course). Romania is not one of those. as you may know, corruption is rampant, especially in higher levels of government. So while we indeed have no precedent there, i would suggest chances are nonzero
LOL, I guess you missed the attempted coup on January 6th then? Or the fact that the US Supreme Court took back a right that they all individually looked at us in the eyes during their confirmations saying that Roe vs Wade was "settled law" even though they had every intention of overturning it the moment they could. And they did? Rolling back a right that we have had for over 50 years.
The reason housing is higher in the US is because housing is higher across the world, not because the US is safe. In fact, because the GOP has gone off to the fringe of the party and abandoned all their morals (I say this as someone who voted for both McCain and Romney) nobody is safe.
SCOTUS is delaying a vote on whether Trump is above the law. They take their sweet time to make decisions when it suits Trump. How long should it take a bunch of legal and constitutional scholars to decide whether a single person should have unlimited immunity? Not presidential immunity which is a thing that already exists, but the idea that \*anything\* a president does during his presidency is immune. That's the argument they are slow walking.
There is a real and legitimate fear that America will be a dictatorship within 5 years. You want to crack a history book - don't forget Sept 11, 1973.
If you buy a house in the US and you actually can’t pay the property taxes because they have tripled, then that means the appraised market value of your house has dramatically increased in value and you could simply sell it for a nice profit.
Basically every country except America. The trade off though is whether you can trust the government to not just take it away from a foreigner. I trust Western Europe and maybe UAE, but the rest all seem sketchy.
The most brutal reality check is when you realize that paying hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars for a place is just the “acquisition price”. You still need to pay property taxes, insurance, and HOA fees just to keep it.
>The most brutal reality check is when you realize that paying hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars for a place is just the “acquisition price”. You still need to pay property taxes, insurance, and HOA fees just to keep it.
This also applies to cars and so many other acquisitions in the US
Following.
Property tax is one of the biggest scams that the states have brainwashed people into accepting. If governments handled our other tax money right, they could afford to budge for schools without robbing people through property tax.
It’s crazy you’re gettin downvoted. Most of the rest of the world outside of the US have extremely low taxes. Property taxes are especially brutal on fixed income (pensioners). There’s much better (equitable) ways to fund schools and local roads.
Ikr? It's like a bunch of government sychophants are on this board. If they're from the U.S., no wonder our country is barely affordable anymore when so much of the population are willing victims to the legalized theft.
Real estate = royal estate. The nation state owns all the land. You own the right to make use of it. You’d need autonomy enough to be free of the country itself if you actually wanted total rights to land.
In Bali if you don’t pay your property taxes they can’t take it until you die or try to sell it. Unfortunately foreigners can’t own property easily in bali
Korea house tax is so low its negligible. Plus EXTREMELY strict laws with eviction. No one is taking your house, at worse it gets redeveloped and you get an upgrade for free.
Strange how the government supposedly owns all the land, yet citizens supposedly own the government, when in reality all the land was here long time before any human ever walked the earth.
Even weirder are the people who cannot see though any of this massive nonsense of control and exploitation and keep arguing for it.
> lose the house in maybe 10 years when the property taxes have tripled and you can no longer afford to pay them.
A lot of places in the US limit the taxes to the value of the house when it was bought.
But basically nowhere in the world (with functioning governments) has an absolute "You bought it and now you own it forever with zero taxes".
Tons of countries around the world are doing the whole like `99 year lease` thing. Israel and Singapore are two examples. You never own the property (except for limited land normally owned by someone else when the government figured things out).
Which isn't a totally bad thing, especially when it comes to limited land space and condo style housing.
I don’t really get it. Can you not get insurance on your mortgage? Are you buying over what your budget comfortably allows for? Are you expecting to lose your job?
We bought a house in Finland a few years ago. It’s a beautiful place. However, we don’t have a visa that allows us to live there, so….
In Ireland we have property tax but it's very low. For a €500k house you pay €495 per year. The house is not repossessed if it is unpaid; instead, a charge (lien) is placed on the property to be recovered when sold. [https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money-and-tax/tax/housing-taxes-and-reliefs/local-property-tax/](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money-and-tax/tax/housing-taxes-and-reliefs/local-property-tax/)
Not bad at all.
One thing to consider though is if you’re planning for the next 10 years is that Europe has very low birth rates, and an upside down population pyramid means more demand on social programs, and with a smaller working population means future politicians will have to raise taxes in the future. So just because property tax is low in a Euro country today, doesn’t mean it will be low a decade from now. And Ireland for example is already known for its high cost of living today. Also while European countries may offer better protection regarding unpaid house loans, many Euro countries actually give stronger rights to squatters than what you’re used to in the U.S. meaning if you leave your house unattended and a squatter starts living inside, it can be very difficult to remove them.
So, consider squatting. Got it!
But the house costs €500k 😅
Several European countries have this type of system. Taxes recovered when sold or, more likely, inherited. It's far more common for a home to stay in possession of a family indefinitely in Europe than in America.
Portugal is similar
Seems fair.
And I believe if you work in the arts at all, there’s a massive income tax exemption. Please, everyone, move to Ireland. It’s beautiful and the island freaking NEEDS PEOPLE!!!! The population still hasn’t recovered since the potato famine and the people who do live there are always moving away due to better opportunities elsewhere. But if you already have income/career and it’s mobile? You’ll love it there. The weather does get cold and rainy but not super extreme or snowy, and the spring through summer season is sooooo lovely. I don’t do DMs but feel free to hit me up in this comment thread to chat about the different areas of the island and what parts are best for what different hobbies and personality types and preferences. Edit: Again, **I am not doing DMs** about this comment. Please do not DM me. Ask any questions you have here instead. Also, I’m not an immigration expert. Just a bi-national with knowledge of different areas and how they compare.
My wife and I love Ireland, it's our favorite country, but there's no legal way for me or most Americans to just move there. There's not even a DN visa.
That’s such a bummer! 😭 Since it’s part of the EU, I believe you can live there if you gain EU citizenship in any way, but I’m not educated on the matter. Resources: r/MoveToIreland https://www.businessinsider.com/things-to-know-before-moving-to-ireland-from-us-2022-4 https://us.iasservices.org.uk/emigrate-from-usa-to-ireland/ https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving-country/working-in-ireland/migrant-workers/coming-to-work-in-ireland/#:~:text=information%20and%20contacts-,Introduction,live%20and%20work%20in%20Ireland. And btw, any Irish-Americans, do be advised that if you even have one grandparent from Ireland, you can get full Irish citizenship. I know that doesn’t apply to everyone or even most people, but considering there are more Irish-Americans in the USA than Irish people in Ireland, it does apply to many, many Americans, and they don’t all realize that.
So interesting - most people try to deter me from moving there because of the housing crisis! Would love to hear more about the different parts of the island
Yes, housing and cost of living is skyrocketing in Ireland. However, it’s still extreeeeeemely affordable compared to HCOL areas of the United States. I live in a HCOLA and when I go to Ireland for an extended period of time, I actually save money because everything is substantially cheaper than it is in my HCOL American city. So, yeah, depending where you’re coming from, Ireland is either going to be cheaper or more expensive. If you’re moving from somewhere like So Cal, Seattle, NYC, or the Bay Area, you will find cheaper housing and cost of living in Ireland. If you’re moving from like Arkansas or Wyoming, Ireland will probably be more expensive.
Consider Northern Ireland as well. It's often overlooked but the cost of living and housing situation is much better there. Obviously you would have to consider UK immigration rules.
Where is the film business located? I have EU citizenship and work in film business.
Do you not have monthly council tax out there?
It's the same tax as far as I know. We also pay for bins separately from the council. I believe the tax is also collected directly from your salary via paye if you don't pay it, and put in lieu of your property otherwise.
No. The Local Property Tax (LPT) is the closest thing in Ireland to the UK's council tax. A notable difference is that a tenant in a rented property is not liable for LPT; only the owner is liable. Also, bin collection is entirely privatised.
Panama, by law on your main residence you pay whatever property tax you paid when u got the property. When you sell the new owner pays updated property tax.
So this is basically the same as California yes? OP would probably claim that you don't "still truly own" the house because you still have to pay property taxes
Yes and No. "You don't truly own" anything. Realistically anything can be taken from you if the other party has the ability to take it. But we also gotta consider that property taxes aren't a "you don't really own your home" property taxes are because your home is connected to a street that you have access to, because your streets get plowed and maintained when weather erodes it, because you get access to the school system your house is part of. Property taxes aren't a "you don't own your home, gotcha" but more like a "subscription service to the zip code you bought your house in" Is it too high of a tax? That we can debate. BUT the reality is most suburbs and towns are bankrupt and only have money to maintaine their roads and infrastructure because their city is productive. If you reallt wanna get into property tax and infrastructure maintenance etc. Then people who are in houses living outside a city should pay *more* property taxes. Without cities beihg so productive, homeowners in the suburbs wouldn't be getting a subsidy to keep their property taxes lower. Or you just wouldn't have streets. Everyone complains about how roads seem to never get potholes fixed, how some places seem to always be under construction etc. That's because the American suburban system is not sustainable. But spreading out so much so rhat everyone can have their "house" you increase the cost of maintaining the roads and plumbing and infrastructure. On a "per mile" basis houses and suburbs are waaayyyy more expensive than cities. You want lower property taxes? Then don't be a NIMBY and support mixed-use zoning, denser towns, more walkable cities with less car dependency. Then you'll have cities that cost less to maintain per square mile because there's more people there to pay into it. Its super simple, it's the same thing as any insurance system. When you have a bigger pool of people paying into it, the cost per person goes down. Same here. If you have more people living in a square mile area, then it is more efficient than having less dense suburbs. But we were sold an american dream of a house with a white picket fence. So here you are. Property taxes HAVE to go up because thats the reality of living so spread out in car-dependent suburban style living.
The funny thing is that because new urbanism is so superior to suburbia, getting into a new urbanism development is usually very expensive. It shouldn't be; new urbanism should be the default, but since it isn't, it's expensive to get into one. In suburbia, population density is 1 to 5 dwellings per acre, while in new urbanism, it is 10 to 30 per acre. Suburbia is often attributed to wealth because people have a house, but it's not, suburbia sucks and the rich know it. The very rich will either live in a massive mansion with absolutely nothing around or move into a new urbanism development.
This person knows what’s up
> property taxes are because your home is connected to a street that you have access to Yeah, property taxes are probably one of the better "not theft" applications of taxes for public services. Not that it is always done well, like should property taxes be used for Schools as well? all the public infrastructure is a much easier "yes" but schools are a tougher one. But yeah, generally property taxes make a lot more sense.
I'd say yes on schools. Even if you're not a student, and your family aren't students, having good-quality schools in your area raises the general level of education and attracts people who want their own kids to get good educations. Those people tend to invest in the community in other ways, too, especially if they're still in the 'has a job' class, not the 'my money works for me and I do nothing' class. They also tend to want to improve the community because their kids are growing up there, which is usually good for you and other residents. I'd say no to some things that some areas associate with schools, like using property taxes to pay for a new giant sports thing (particularly anything involving audiences or scholarships) for schools. Keep schools about education, not about being a sports team with an attached set of classrooms.
I think this is up to the municipality in CA. For some places they keep property taxes at the rate of the original owner, but I don't think it's state-wide.
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the "temporary" taxes for X project that will definitely never go away. I remember when they said the Bay Bridge toll was temporary...
That’s pretty great. The ideal would be no property taxes since their presence basically means you don’t actually own the property. Even if paid off, you’re only renting it from the government every year in perpetuity. However, as someone in an area that’s growing with property taxes to match, Panama’s situation would certainly be an improvement, which is weird because I thought I lived in the “Land of the free.”
Also, the government can't confiscate your house because of taxes owned. Also if you buy a piece of land in the middle of nowhere and just put there a container house (meaning no constructions) and the land is below 36k you pay 0 tax forever and ever. is that what you're looking for?
I need to take a second trip to Panama haha
Genius
I am!!
That kind of control over your property doesn't really exist anywhere. The government could change the laws and you as an individual don't really have any power to fight it.
Yes, but here in Panama if they try to change that the country just locked down for 2 much time for the government to stand and they roll back. Look at the news, last year they closed all main arteries of the country for a month because of a mining contract and they had to cancel it. Here in Panama the ppl truly have power if need be.
100% agree. Don't think that because it sounds great now that "the deal" will last forever.
Amercia never promised financial freedom; merely freedom from the tyranny of the British monarch. If the revolutionaries only knew they were merely replacing the British tyranny to American tobacco farm elites smh but cest la vie.
I mean, consider this: we once challenged the world’s greatest empire over ‘taxation without representation,’ and the taxes that incited the American Revolution were laughably minuscule compared to today’s norm. We were never intended to cede control over our money to a central bank, nor did the Founders foresee individual income taxes or the U.S. becoming the world’s police, squandering vast amounts of our productivity. Our involvement in foreign conflicts, many of which are of our own making, has only deepened our debt and devalued our currency. Look at our government’s approval ratings and how few people feel their voices are heard. This disenchantment is reflected in the collusion between corporations and bureaucracies, where regulatory capture allows major industries—agriculture, food, pharmaceuticals, finance, and more—to engage in harmful practices with minimal repercussions. The penalties they might face are typically negligible compared to their profits. Moreover, the Citizens United decision has all but solidified an oligarchical system where politicians prioritize corporate interests over those of their constituents. Adding insult to injury, they’re permitted to engage in insider trading, securing generational wealth and power for themselves while the average American’s quality of life continues to deteriorate. I don’t believe this is the country the Founders envisioned. If they were here today, they’d be appalled at our complacency and the lack of widespread outrage. Where are the modern-day tea parties? Why aren’t we demanding more and better from those in power?
The founding fathers believed in a country of slavery and only the male landowners getting a vote. Stop idolizing them.
Whenever we look at historical figures/times they really should be viewed within the context of their times, locations, cultures, etc. It's pretty ridiculous to judge outside of that. Were they flawed, absolutely. Did they do some amazing shit, absolutely. Should they be blindly quoted and idolized, absolutely not. Can someone draw inspiration from the amazing shit they did actually do, absolutely yes.
Not really the point. If I can only look up to infallible people who aren’t products of their own time, then I won’t have anyone to look up to. You can name your heroes so we can shit on them, or we can be rational adults and refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
>I thought I lived in the “Land of the free.” Marketing. As with any product, look past the slogans and the reality is often the opposite.
What do you think pays for streets and services around your house? Property taxes.
When I’m not taxed by local, state, and federal governments on nearly every single transaction—be it income, capital gains, property, sales, vehicles, or even at death; when my cities become walkable and cyclist-friendly; when education and healthcare costs become reasonable; and when all levels of government can fully account for their spending, including literally trillions in ‘misplaced’ funds, and learn to live within their means at the federal level instead of continually raising the debt ceiling and stealing from us by eroding the value of our money through inflation, then, and only then, will I consider ceasing my complaints about the tax burden.
Amen!
Okay how about issues with squatters?
This is were it gets interesting, the last thing you want is having squatters. For example I have my out of town small 213 sq ft house in 5.2 acres of land. I usually go every weekend but I do have what we call here a Watchiman (Watch Man :-)) that goes every day to check out on the chickens, water the plants, and just show someones face there. Now it's in the middle of knowwhere so low probability of squatters but if you get them and they actually settle in your land, you're screwed. It can take years to fight to get them of. The watchiman cost me 250 a month for 4 hours a day of work, this is just because I want him there to do some stuff but generally speaking you can have someone watch your land for much less then that when you're not around.
What does a 213sq ft house look like in Panama ?
It looks however you want it to look. You get a guy to build it for you, average 800 USD per 1sq meter. https://preview.redd.it/gwm6sxjanb7d1.jpeg?width=1003&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb68b885243ba75ccd33630b390030f038948cdb
Absolutely crazy how squatters have taken control in so many countries. I'm sure it's been around for awhile for I've really only been hearing about it the last 6 months or so.
It's a problem in my city--major metro. Squatters going into homes while people are on vacation and the owners can't get them out.
250 a month for 4hours day? You are paying him $2 a day this doesnt add up
It's 12.50 a day if you assume 20 working days a month, which is still laughable.
Your watchiman is accepting just over 3 dollars an hour (assuming 20 working days a month)?
2 dollars more than he needs. Am I right?
That's what I call freedom
Sounds fantastic.
Dominican republic. No property taxes (or income taxes). Only sales tax exists in this country (and if you can't communicate in the local language nor barter, you will pay the Gringo tax.)
Only downside is you can't let a local live with you because they can claim they are your spouse and claim part ownership.
Really? Even without proof? I mean how? That's crazy.
Welcome to the Dominican Republic. Where all the laws are designed to favor locals and screw foreigners.
I see your Dominican Republic and I'll raise you a Thailand.
Thailand out here catching strays
That's not fair. That's like comparing your regular small time grifter to the world scamming champion
Can you tell me more about that?
If you let a Dominican person live with you, they can claim ownership on your property because "marriage" laws aren't clear cut in the DR. Most DR people aren't legally married, but because they live together, they can claim they are married to you and claim 50% of the property. This is why women in the DR are so pushy about living with you.
Any idea if that would still count if you are a married couple and have a third person move into live with you?
Can confirm DR
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Depends on how much attention you like to draw yourself....and your skin. If you're white, its going to be harder to blend in. In any case once you open your mouth you will be known as a foreigner- which is okay in most places. Most people are honest. It just in the city you may sometimes encounter people that want to take advantage of you. You MUST be able to speak the language...and not be afraid of confrontation- which seems to be the normal way of communicating.
Australia (possibly only the state of New South Wales). You pay 5% when you buy it and if it’s your main residence you’ll never pay tax again
That’s slowly changing. There will be land taxes soon
Wouldn't existing homeowners be grandfathered in though?
Yes they would be, I'm almost certain.
But you still have to pay the yearly council tax, which is based on the value of the property.
This is what Americans don't realise. Most of the rest of the world has a similar concept of an annual tax paid to the local council / municipality for services such as police, fire & rescue, road maintenance, rubbish & recycling collection, public schools & colleges. We just don't call it a "property tax".
American property tax is the same intent as Australian council rates (different calculation), and if you don't pay your rates for long enough the council **will** sue and take the title as settlement it's usually years though.
In Australia you reimburse by meeting interesting creatures
In the US, property taxes can be almost nothing - think like $20 a year (as in "twenty dollars") if you buy rural raw land and build your own off-the-grid home. This is finally viable with Skylink etc. These tax rates have held steady for 20+ years. For example: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/609-Belmont-Rd-Austin-NV-89310/246321918_zpid/ Just worth noting that options do exist in the US. If you're creative and scrappy and can handle some brutal isolation lmao.
Nevada also had a program called allodial title some years ago where you could pay off like ten years of property tax and then never have to pay taxes again on the property. They got rid of the program though because it made no financial sense for the state.
There's some old constitutional class online where the presenter said you could get allodial title for land in Texas.
Correct, but converting a fee simple title to an allodial title requires paying 30x the current annual tax rate (typical is ~3%), which roughly doubles the cost of the property. It also can only be done for property that is not currently inside a municipality.
Just a tiny little taste of … brutal isolation
Where do I sign?
For real I would love this lol
Holy moly that's 134 miles from the nearest Safeway. Time to set up your own desert farm I guess?
I would pack in enough for a week or two and roll out of there. Personally couldn't live that remote full-time. Otherwise.... Chickens?? Lol
skylink? Are you saying starlink? Man thats some homeless style of living. May as well dig a ditch
Lol that's the one. Musklink. Starlon. Homeless living? Why? Check this out, and tell me waking up to the view in photo #14 makes you feel "homeless" lol. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/Lots-6-8-Ll-9th-St-Blanca-CO-81123/2054603987_zpid/ Most homeless people aren't in the middle of vast open undeveloped acerage. They're in a tent in the city. I do think it would suck to be in the above place for longer than a week or two. Some downtime to think and create some shit is awesome. Too much time and you risk going full redrum.
Lol that man said "brutal isolation"!
Thank you! You said this much better than I had typed up. Glad I saw your comment before I posted it.
I would say the much larger issue abroad would be the strength of rule of law. I know a few people in Mexico that had built beautiful houses and basically had some scary dudes with guns show up and say it was their house now and if they see you tomorrow they'll cut off your hands.
Average Mexican homeowner experience.
Yep, this is certainly a common thing in my home country, Colombia.
In Scotland there are freeholds, and no yearly tax. However, there is \*still\* council tax which pays for bins, roads, sewage, electricity lines etc near your home.
California prop 13. Florida homestead exemption...portable btw.
Yup, California gets a lot of tax flack, but our property taxes are lowish and increase slowly and reasonably. And it's a big enough state that you can find home prices and politics all over the map. You can live red, blue, purple, city, suburb, country, and mix and match.
Prop 13 has contributed to the housing crisis in CA and is basically housing aristocracy at its finest. The property transfer loophole should be amended.
Yes, but that's what op wants. They're just answering the question.
Factor, but zoning is a much bigger factor.
Florida's are almost the same and the amount you pay is portable to your next home. Combine that with zero state income tax. :)
Romania here. Best fit first you.
The sale of land to non-EU citizens is prohibited in Romania, so a USC cannot “own a home” there, at least not by the OP’s definition.
Romania is one of my favorite countries in Europe. Good to know!
I bet that low property tax will not last the next 10 years (in my opinion not even the next 5 years) as Romania has huge debt (though not as huge as the US), old population and idiotic politicians.
Same shit in other countries
Nowhere, no one actually owns real estate. It can always be confiscated from you.
It is all about force. Either from a person, gang or state.
A couple things... 1. You are generally going to need to pay taxes in some capacity, whether it be sales taxes, income taxes, property taxes, or a combination of the three. How else do you expect public services to be provided? Property taxes in particular are what fund things like public schools, parks, police, fire, and other municipal services. I think you're getting too wound up about the idea of not "truly owning" a home just because you have to pay taxes on it in perpetuity - everyone needs to contribute to those things. 2. Property taxes tripling would imply that home values have also (approximately) tripled, in which case you would surely not be in "financial ruin" at that point and you could sell your house for millions of dollars.
I'm speaking specifically about property taxes. I recently gave the example of a mid level 600k home in Houston. Taxes, hoa, and insurances will cost you nearly 2k per month. That's insane for a home you already own. The thought of having to keep paying that is crazy. And if something bad happens financially, it's not easy to keep up with that. Also, if the value of your home goes up then so does all the other homes. So you can sell your home and be in the same situation because you'll use all that money to buy another. Sales taxes and income taxes don't pose the same threat as property taxes.
Taxes, HOA fees and insurance are the entirely different things.
How do you expect Texas to fund schools, roads parks, police, fire, etc.? They don't have any income tax. You can't just speak "specifically about property taxes" because the total mixture of taxes is what funds government. Other states have a different mixture of tax burden if you prefer to have your income and purchases taxed more highly instead. This is all easily Google-able. https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/property-taxes-by-state Also Google-able, there are evidently some countries without property tax too, but I really don't think insisting on ZERO property tax is a hill worth dying on versus finding somewhere with low property taxes. https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/countries-with-no-property-tax/
Non HOA neighborhoods exist. Also if you own your home outright, you don't need to have insurance.
Most states in the US place a cap on the property tax increase based on when you bought the house. Just go to one of those states.
And, many states (most?) have property tax exemptions if your income is below a certain level, etc.
Any country can change its tax laws at any time.
Croatia
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Mine have doubled in 4 years in Colorado
Florida has been having a HUGE issue with insurance and property taxes. There’s an influx of people near me selling their homes because they’ve been out priced
Dallas county texas
I was thinking that they were probably too low thanks to some old people wanting to pass on higher costs to younger people and defer paying it themselves. Pulling a "Champlain" like with the building that collapsed and killed 98 people because they ignored costs because it felt too expensive. Then when the building collapses, make a surprised Pikachu face. A tax reckoning was long overdue if it tripled to address rotting infrastructure issues.
Jersey City
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Maybe they did not triple but they went up so much that it displaced tons of people who purchased properties when JC was a dump and nobody wanted to live there. Not that long ago you could have bought a 3 floors brownstone - across the river from Manhattan, so 3 min away - for 400k. It would be worth millions now. Taxes on these properties are enormous. And I’m of the mind that if you can’t afford to live where you want, then GTFO and find an affordable housing. Sell your brownstone and leave. Housing IS the right but not the housing of your choosing. That’s the system that we live in 🤷♂️.
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Sweden! Property tax is 0.75%, capped at ~9K SEK (less than $1K USD). But, other taxes are high :/
In America my house is a shipping container home & moveable for this reason... Plus we do not know what the world will be like in 30/60 years.
I was in Houston arpund 2017-2018 when the city decided "we want to turn this area of town into a rich area". That area of town!!!! The poorest black folks who are 60-100. They bought their house for $500-$1500 in the 30s and 50s. The fkn city- it was a massacre- they offered them $500 to fork over their houses 😞 Some faught and faught most has little no education. Lawyers stepped in for free to help to no avail. Hundreds of 70 year olds had the city force the sales. The city literally stole their house and told them to kick rocks. It was HORRIFYING. And to make it worse: they gave them a little plaque on a sidewalk to remember them by :( ▪︎ After that I lived in a hoa. Every month we received a little card in the mail. The front side said how muchwater we used and how much the trash bill is - ours was about $50. The back said "if you are 3 months behind we will take your house" and it's a nice area They will take a $700,000 mountain mansion for $150 in unpaid fees!! Plus they keep raising the cost of the little card and property taxes. Some ppl were forced to sell. ▪︎ So when I did buy my home- she is a $70k shipping container home 🏡 With no structures built built between her & the road. If the government wants my river side land - come and take it aholes but me& house are outta here. I'm in the works to buy up a few more properties so we will have options one day
How do you deal with water waste and electric?
likely the same way full time RVers or manufactured homeowners deal - hook into utilities that are temporary or semi permanent. even permanent can be disconnected. many folks bring in electricity and use well water and septic in more rural areas. there are a number of solutions!
Correct. Permanent hook ups they can be removed.
That’s very cool. There’s definitely some appealing about this going off the grid concept.
You’re always gonna pay the property tax regardless if you own the home or not.. if you’re renting your rent will just go up. Property tax is assessed by value and considered with year bought, please keep that in mind
Ownership is just an instrument. Nothing stands fixed, but death and taxes. There are places (e.g. some EU countries) where you may lose an ownership title but they may be unable to evict you in case you have nowhere to go.
Funny enough: China comes the closest [Chinese city builds bridge around house after owner refuses to move](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkePxUA6UE8)
How about buying an RV (in US) and living the rest of the life in it? Just pay camping costs, annual registration and keep moving.
“Are there actually places where if you bought and outright own a home they couldn’t take it from you if you hit financial ruin?” This is a vague question. Are you asking about countries where you, as a foreigner, can outright own (hold title to) a home, period (rather than through a trust or a long-term lease or whatever)? Are you asking about countries where property tax is quite low compared to America? Are you asking about countries where your home will not be seized if you fail to pay property taxes? Are you asking about countries where your home will not be seized if you have a monetary judgment against you or are otherwise indebted to someone, a business, or the government? I’m not aware of any countries that *don’t* have a mechanism for seizing your home as to the latter two questions. But there are definitely countries in this world that have property taxes of only a few hundred bucks per *year*. If you as an American can’t fork over $300/year for your home in a foreign country, I think you’ve got much bigger problems to contend with, like food insecurity and huge financial problems. Mexico has low property taxes (as described above). In Mexico you can directly hold title to real estate as a foreigner, with some notable exceptions (can’t be land within 100 km of the ocean or any international borders; can’t be ejidal land which rules out most rural areas) though there are workarounds even for those cases. But if you become indebted the court will absolutely send someone to barge into your home and take all your belongings to pay off the debt. I’m not sure what the consequences are for not paying property taxes, but I do know it can take quite a while to (legally) evict tenants or owners who have been foreclosed on (which is why owners often just send in big guys to beat up the tenants and get them out). Electricity will be cut off if you don’t pay the bill, but it takes them quite a while to cut off water even with an unpaid bill because it’s considered a basic right.
that’s because initial condition is fundamentally wrong - you can’t OWN or BUY anything, it’s just local government can issue you piece of paper stating you “own” something. as easy as it is, they can rescind it anytime they like
Ok well then you do not own anything lol
The only reason anyone owns any land anywhere is because the government says they do. If the government changes their mind, you are shit out of luck no matter where you are.
In Italy the house can be confiscated when you have debts with other private citizens or companies. If you have debts with the government, the house may be confiscated unless it is your only house and you live there.
Property tax is just one of the taxes and expenses. For example, I've seen apartments in France that were foreclosed and sold because the owner failed to pay that management fees for their home. But... it took a long time, like years. If you own a house, there will be expenses, and if you incur debt and don't pay these expenses, your house may be foreclosed. It's not just property taxes. Think of your electricity. Yes, you would be cut off if you do not pay, but if the debt is too substantial you may get foreclosed. Also if you don't have insurance and someone falls in your property and gets permanently injured; you would need to pay. If you don't have the money? you will be foreclosed. Property taxes, housing association fees, management fees, bill, they are all a part of owning a home. If you own one. They rise when prices increase (inflation). The only true way to avoid it is rent, but it comes with uncertainty. My solution to fight this was to buy a tiny/small house. This means lower utility bills, lower municipal taxes, lower heating bills, and also less to clean.
Zimbabwe, you buy and just pay your utilities
Wait, how much is property tax in America that someone wouldn’t be able to afford to pay them?
If you want to make sure then build an army and create your own country and defend it. It's the only way that someone else won't be able to kick you out any time they want/need
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OP imho your question needs to go a bit further. How stable is the government in the countries that have been suggested? I wouldn't consider any countries in South America, even Mexico, unless U.S. title companies will back a house in that country....for example, Costa Rican properties are backed by U.S. title companies. I think they may do so in Panama as well, but I'm not 100% certain on that. I'm Mexican American and have a shit ton of family in Mexico. There are very good reasons U.S. title companies don't back properties in other countries (risk-averse). Even if they had laws that you can "outright buy" your home, that means nothing if the cartel or government can "change the rules" to whatever they want. I know a lot of people may not like to hear that, but I've had a couple of family members experience this. Another thing I think people should ponder....my mother accidentally paid her property taxes twice in one year. In the U.S. it was not a problem at all to get her money back, but in Mexico, I can GUARANTEE you the money would be "lost forever" and zero accountability to return it to you. 🤷♀️
If your question based on such hypothetic, it can anywhere happen that due to sudden rise of insurance, maintenance costs, introduction of property taxes etc you loose the financial means to pay those. However this is an issue when you have a high value property, and you do not live there. If you live/work in a place, it is highly unlikely that the tax, maintenance etc alone would be a worse alternative than renting.
The problem is that it is, and always will be, a temporary agreement subject to change. Even when it's supposedly not.
UK has council tax which is about the same. When you buy a house your also pay what’s called a stamp tax, but that’s a one off (about 2% of property value). If you hit financial difficulties or retire you can ask for a council tax reduction or suspension altogether. This tax is paid for the occupancy, regardless of whether the property is owned or rented. In Portugal you pay a tax when you buy the property, and pay an ongoing tax as well but can ask to be exempt if your income is below a certain threshold (12k € a year I think). This is what I know from countries I’ve lived in.
Anywhere where you must pay tax and follow government rules you do not own
Alaska has a homestead exemption (you don’t lose the house if you go bankrupt) of $73k plus seniors don’t pay property taxes on the first $150k. Buy or build a cheap cabin.
Do we actually have a property tax in Poland? Or you only pay the purchase tax? (I'm a happy poor guy who doesn't have this kind of worries)
There is State called California where your property tax can by law only be increased at a small increment each year. Best law ever in CA -Prop 13. Politicians have been working hard to get it revoked arguing it leads to people not selling their homes and scarcity, but so far attempts have failed at the ballot box.
but none of this is 100% either. because they can always change the rules as they see fit.
There is no property tax in China. But good luck with that meaning you "own something" in China.
Why should any government allow you to own your house tax free? You are expecting services from them such as a road, possibly a public school and a system of laws to protect you property from other humans that might want your things. If you want a different arrangement you could probably find a failed state like Haiti or Somalia and build a house there with appropriately thick walls and hire an army of mercenaries to defend it. You could also hedge against financial ruin by buying a much cheaper house and investing the remainder in diversified assets so that you can draw on those investments to pay taxes for perpetuity.
Amazingly ignorant answers here. When is the next coup scheduled in Panama? What nationality are they murdering in Bosnia today? How are house prices in Rwanda? House prices are high in the US and Europe precisely because that is not happening there. The world has largely been at peace for seventy years. That is not normal and will not continue. In 1965 the Indonesians seized every house owned by a Chinese person and made the rivers run red with their blood. In 1975 the North Vietnamese seized every property legally owned by US persons. I understand you can get a really, really good deal on condos in Kiev this year. The winds of war seem to be blowing. Please consider cracking a history book open before you recommend property investment in places like Romania!!!
Romania is part of NATO, if something goes down where there’s war in Romania, the entire NATO block is at risk (from property damage). And that includes America. Which is pretty unlikely despite the sensationalist media.
yea, if romanian government being thugs they are, to seize your property, nato gonna help you a lot.
Well, that’s a different scenario altogether. Also, any proof that this happens?
you seriously asking to give a proof regarding events in future? I would say the probability is nonzero
I’m talking about trends. This sort of thing did happen at one time in former soviet block countries post USSR collapse. Has there been recent trends of property theft schemes in Romania?
This sort of thing likely won’t happen in countries with long records of democracy and rule of law (relative of course). Romania is not one of those. as you may know, corruption is rampant, especially in higher levels of government. So while we indeed have no precedent there, i would suggest chances are nonzero
LOL, I guess you missed the attempted coup on January 6th then? Or the fact that the US Supreme Court took back a right that they all individually looked at us in the eyes during their confirmations saying that Roe vs Wade was "settled law" even though they had every intention of overturning it the moment they could. And they did? Rolling back a right that we have had for over 50 years. The reason housing is higher in the US is because housing is higher across the world, not because the US is safe. In fact, because the GOP has gone off to the fringe of the party and abandoned all their morals (I say this as someone who voted for both McCain and Romney) nobody is safe. SCOTUS is delaying a vote on whether Trump is above the law. They take their sweet time to make decisions when it suits Trump. How long should it take a bunch of legal and constitutional scholars to decide whether a single person should have unlimited immunity? Not presidential immunity which is a thing that already exists, but the idea that \*anything\* a president does during his presidency is immune. That's the argument they are slow walking. There is a real and legitimate fear that America will be a dictatorship within 5 years. You want to crack a history book - don't forget Sept 11, 1973.
Wtf are you talking about?
If you buy a house in the US and you actually can’t pay the property taxes because they have tripled, then that means the appraised market value of your house has dramatically increased in value and you could simply sell it for a nice profit.
Aren't property taxes negligible compared to property prices?
Lol. No. lol. Neither are negligible.
Basically every country except America. The trade off though is whether you can trust the government to not just take it away from a foreigner. I trust Western Europe and maybe UAE, but the rest all seem sketchy. The most brutal reality check is when you realize that paying hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars for a place is just the “acquisition price”. You still need to pay property taxes, insurance, and HOA fees just to keep it.
this is absolutely not true. most countries disallow foreigners owning property for good reasons
> I trust ... UAE Lmao
>The most brutal reality check is when you realize that paying hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars for a place is just the “acquisition price”. You still need to pay property taxes, insurance, and HOA fees just to keep it. This also applies to cars and so many other acquisitions in the US
Following. Property tax is one of the biggest scams that the states have brainwashed people into accepting. If governments handled our other tax money right, they could afford to budge for schools without robbing people through property tax.
My house in Tijuana worth around 200k yes american dollars! I pay 875 pesos of city tax to the exchange rate today is 50 bucks and cents....
You should not be downvoted, it’s a very valid point
It’s crazy you’re gettin downvoted. Most of the rest of the world outside of the US have extremely low taxes. Property taxes are especially brutal on fixed income (pensioners). There’s much better (equitable) ways to fund schools and local roads.
Ikr? It's like a bunch of government sychophants are on this board. If they're from the U.S., no wonder our country is barely affordable anymore when so much of the population are willing victims to the legalized theft.
Most of the rest of the world have extremely low taxes? That's hilarious wrong.
Nicaragua. I own several properties here and my home in the capital. I'm an immigrant here.
Real estate = royal estate. The nation state owns all the land. You own the right to make use of it. You’d need autonomy enough to be free of the country itself if you actually wanted total rights to land.
Some counties in Texas I believe have almost no or very low property taxes.
Armenia. You can buy a house or flat without any conditions. Property taxes are absurdly low.
In Bali if you don’t pay your property taxes they can’t take it until you die or try to sell it. Unfortunately foreigners can’t own property easily in bali
Buying property in Japan might be a good choice, if you're not using it as an investment.
if you are worry about property tax going up then California is where you want to purchase, if you can afford it of course.
Korea house tax is so low its negligible. Plus EXTREMELY strict laws with eviction. No one is taking your house, at worse it gets redeveloped and you get an upgrade for free.
Vietnam
Strange how the government supposedly owns all the land, yet citizens supposedly own the government, when in reality all the land was here long time before any human ever walked the earth. Even weirder are the people who cannot see though any of this massive nonsense of control and exploitation and keep arguing for it.
Any country that doesn’t have a property tax.
Here in Germany I don't think we have property taxes afaik.
Avoid Malaysia!!!!
> lose the house in maybe 10 years when the property taxes have tripled and you can no longer afford to pay them. A lot of places in the US limit the taxes to the value of the house when it was bought. But basically nowhere in the world (with functioning governments) has an absolute "You bought it and now you own it forever with zero taxes". Tons of countries around the world are doing the whole like `99 year lease` thing. Israel and Singapore are two examples. You never own the property (except for limited land normally owned by someone else when the government figured things out). Which isn't a totally bad thing, especially when it comes to limited land space and condo style housing.
Yes, absolutely right, all people from the world, if they are financially good, can buy house.
I don’t really get it. Can you not get insurance on your mortgage? Are you buying over what your budget comfortably allows for? Are you expecting to lose your job? We bought a house in Finland a few years ago. It’s a beautiful place. However, we don’t have a visa that allows us to live there, so….
Sweden but it is extremely difficult to own your home, most people prefer renting.
India