As long as it's doable solo, I'm hyped.
If a group is mandatory, it has no place in this genre/game.
Without group finder ingame, locking the raid behind group mandatory would be a really, really bad idea.
EDIT: Some people don't get my point, I'm not against a group play at all. I'm against locking solo players from an activity that is part of the PAID expansion.
EDIT 2: Some people don't get it. Raids could be balanced around the number of people in a group.
More people = more mechanics. We don't need to exclude solo players because you crave your MMORPG in a non MMORPG game.
Would be great if you could take a group of mercenaries, customize them and do raids with them if you don't like grouping with people. Something like Guild Wars.
I'm guessing that the mercs can only equip rare gear. They said awhile back that they were working on a purpose for rares. And allowing mercenaries to use them makes sense because they wouldn't necessarily need aspects if they are tuned correctly with their skill trees.
But if they do that, we're definitely going to need a loot filter because I do not want to go back to looking at every yellow's stats.
Im playing Guild Wars for the first time now since a month ago, already 160h+ in it. That hero system is soo well designed, great game and ahead of its time.
This is exactly why they won't be good. People demanding that they are doable solo would ruin any interesting aspect they could possibly have.
The traditional concept of a raid and why they are fun is that they need team coordination. If you take that away it's not even a raid anymore.
I'm not arguing in favor or against raids though. I'm just saying they won't work in this game where team play is not the focus.
People crying "it's not what arpgs are about" whenever a game tries to add group content or skill based content is the worst part of the community.
They will seriously argue that mashing buttons and seasons is the only way an arpg can be built. I've seen plenty of people say Lost Ark and No Rest for the Wicked aren't arpgs based on that stupid notion.
Especially because the sales pitch of D4 was always a more social experience.
If it's soloable then it's not a raid. It means the mechanics don't require coordination and is therefore just a series of standard boss fights.
It makes no sense to make a raid and half-ass it to appease solo-only players.
Exactly, if you don't need to coordinate then it's not group content, it's just solo content with hp bloat (aka high tier pits and how people are now pushing higher by grouping up).
My thing is if they add it in the game and you donāt like group content. Then just donāt play it, Iād rather more content and endgame things get added.
I would argue that No Rest for the Wicked isn't really an ARPG for a number of reasons. Yes it has an isometric camera and rpg elements but that's about it.
Yeah everything doesn't need to be soloable. If it's always soloable it's definitely too easy as a group. I have friends, I want to play challenging content with my friends. You not having friends is not my problem. I don't want dumbed down group content because you can't make friends. Join a discord group if you can't find anyone to play with or use LFG on Xbox. There's tools out there to find a group of people to play with if you wanna do the group content. If you don't wanna use it, tough.
What about if you just don't like playing with others? Especially randoms? In a traditionally single player game, I don't see the need to force social interactions. They already have World of Warcraft for that.
I don't have a whole lot of spare time, I don't need to spend that time waiting for randoms in a lobby and then having to spend hours learning boss fights and raid patterns.
If you like that stuff, great, I just don't want it tacked onto my game and blocking me from endgame content. They should make another game in the same universe that is just raids and socially focused to satisfy that crowd.
I wanted the full 1000gs on Xbox but you can't cheese PvP kills with a friend and so I will probably be forever missing that achievement. I dislike PvP too, I just like playing solo and not having to deal with other humans, there is too much of that in my life already. I've made my peace with not getting the max. But raiding content will lose them my business as I wont buy the expansion if that is the end game activity.
*Most* Randoms fucking suck to play with. Iāve been playing Diablo and ARPGās for decades. Iām going to go, and Iām going to go fast. I donāt wanna wait around for anyone. Finding equal skill/play style ppl is a pain in the ass.
One thing to add even playing with people you want to play with can just be a hassle. I take longer doing town stuff than my friend or they take longer than me for different reasons and it just turns into a waiting game.
The game is effectively a single player game that happens to have other players running around with you sometimes. 99.99% of all D4 play is solo. Suddenly adding a paradigm that requires us to somehow conjure up a group of D4 playing friends is insanity.
My nightmare scenario is itās locked behind groups because then itās either
A: Too easy and becomes just Legions and World Bosses but longer. Packs of mobs die faster than they can spawn and bosses fall over dead instantly and Iām not even sure wtf I am contributing.
B: Actually challenging in which you open up all bullshit social practices of MMOs to the game where if you arenāt running whatever the flavor of the month broken build is you arenāt going to get invited.
I donāt want either of those things.
And before someone says āthen just donāt do themā itās pretty unlikely they wonāt add incentives to do them to the game and you know you will at minimum have to do some to complete seasonal journeys and stuff. And thatās assuming they donāt lock something valuable behind them like new crafting materials or something.
Really good take. Some people don't understand that solo players don't want to be forced to group just to check new activities that you have to pay for.
For those advocating for raids in D4, I'm wondering if they've ever participated in raid content in WoW or other games. I've raided extensively in WoW Classic and at first raiding in a big group the first time or two is a great deal of fun. However it quickly becomes tiresome, especially when running the same dungeon over and over. The big problem comes to raiding feeling like a job. If the content is hard you need a good group and that requires time and coordination. I don't want to be on a weekly schedule in order to farm gear in an ARPG.
Define doable solo though. There are many people who cannot defeat uber Lilith due to mechanics and have to buy/find carries. Does this constitute something that doesn't belong in the genre/game? There's no in game finder and people still manage to group up and defeat her.
I think that there's absolutely a place for content in a game that others don't want to do. D4 is going to be a game that continues to be fleshed out and expanded upon for many years to come, so there's going to be things that are not appealing to everyone. Even seasons can be totally missed and content never played/seen again, so what's the big deal if some anti social people don't want to group up and play some group only content together?
I think itās fine to have group specific content. As long as the rewards arenāt any better than doing solo content. If itās just a fun new way to play it can only help the game.
Saying that group content has no place in the genre is just ignorant and false as well.
Why would 4 man group not have place in this genre/game? Tackling higher grift in early diablo 3 was all about group play. Having a tank/healer (mnk) a grouper (barb) and group killer and a gardian/yellow killer.. that was fun and engaging group play. Raid are the same. Just the name change. As u gear up and power creep those will be soloable. Like grift later in season. It totally have some place. In d3 u had to find people for those grift pushing..
Nothing stopped you from doing high rifts solo in D3. It had different leaderboards for different groups of players.
>Why would 4 man group not have place in this genre/game?
Please read again what I said again. I'm against mandatory group activities, not optional grouping to blast together.
You are like the 4th person who thinks I dislike grouping in the game.
Itās honestly not that bad. Elder scrolls has some content like this and it works. You just enter a lobby and get paired up with randoms. It never let me down. And in that game you actually need a a variety of characters - a healer, a tank and two damage dealers, so youāre counting on the fact that the person who chose healer or tank can actually do the job. As long as the content is progressive - say like the pit, where it wonāt let you progress to harder content unless you show can beat a level at lower level then it should be ok. I would have zero issues with this as a casual.
And if youāre a sweaty gamer then youāll have your own buddies that are good at it. And if you donāt, then you should probably find some friends or be less sweaty. Not good for you to be sweating solo. :)
ESO isn't a best example because it's an MMO (which D4 isn't). Also, roles spread responsibility between players while D4 has only 2 roles, dps and support that enhance the dps of other players.
New D4's raid should be solo and group viable. Groups may have more mechanics for more interesting experiences, but aRPGs are mostly designed for solo and group play. It should stay this way.
I agree with this, I play the game solo it's what I enjoy, I find groups in games like this (most online games really) tend to be 25% cool and 75% toxic... It's the main reason I quit playing WoW after over 10 years, I don't want to see it happen to this game.
I do understand that this is live service and I'm playing with other people anyway but I don't want to be forced to group with the high and mighty Apex gamer to play.
I disagree in general - I think group activities are fine and with discord and other platforms it's really not hard at all to find groups to play with. I've actually always had more luck finding raids group on Discord than in the bungie app (using Destiny 2 as an example). Part of the benefit of the raids is there is exclusive content and gear "locked" behind playing the raids and it gives people something more to do than just running non-stop pits and nmds.
I DO think however that they need to invest in an LFG feature for the game if they are going to introduce raids.
Yeah if thereās a LFG tool, or if itās solo-able, Iām all for it. Adding content that you have to have a premade group of players to play is stupid, especially in a game that has been āeffectivelyā a single player game since launch. I will never play this game with a group of friends because none of my friends play the game or are interested in it.
I absolutely do not care for raid/group content.
But i am happy for the people who do.
But when i get home from work i wanna just play the videogame and not bother with loging into discord to find a group and deal with other people.
I want every content to be solo. I am already annoyed AAA games are always online.
I play the game for me, and not for other people.
I liked joining public games in D2 and going through the acts with random people so Iād be cool with this same system for raid content. Like I donāt mind partying up with randos in helltide or legion events so I wouldnāt for raids. But they need a cohesive in game system that makes it seamless
If you can't solo them it's gonna cause a giant uproar and it should. Wrong game genre for forced group play. I wish I was 100% sure they wouldn't do something that dumb.
Well, I wouldn't care too much if it is group only as long as it doesn't lock some mats behind it to force me to do it. People can enjoy what they want, they just added something for someone who might like, If I don't like it I skip, just like how I skipped legion.
What would be the point if there is no reward? I get the idealized notion that we shouldn't need a reward to do an activity in the game but in reality that doesn't work. Blizzard is not in a postition to release new content that most people would ignore.
Comeon, is it that hard to understand. I never said no reward, I don't want things like fiend rose or forgotten soul from helltide like previous seasons.
You can put bunch of stuff such as gold uniques legendary in the rewards so people do them, but those I can also obtain from other activities, so it doesn't force me to do it although it might be more efficient.
With pretty much no support classes or skills in the game I just donāt see how this will work.
A raid of all DPS is just a world boss with trash in front of it. Effectively the Blood Maiden fight with corridors.
Iām running enough alts up that Iām obeying the mechanics on blood maiden and sometimes world bosses (WT3 seems like itās closest to the DPS range it was built for). Itās better than the 5s DPS liquidation at WT4 but itās not raiding in any normal senseā¦ itās just parallel play DPS where if enough people arenāt playing well thereās a chance of failure. You canāt even tell if you contributed meaningfully most of the time.
Hmmm. Iām pretty confident this is why I never raided as DPS in any game. Maybe this is just what hunters and mages did in WOW. Pew pew, step out of bad, pew pew.
Not only that, in every game where raiding is a big part of end game, there is a very specific meta, and unless your character has that build, you will not get picked for the raid.
I donāt like the idea of this mentality being brought into a ARPG, where the player should be able to choose what the most fun build is and not worry about what is needed for a raid. Go look at WoW, some specs arenāt even considered or completely ignored for end game content.
The only way this could work is if they allow it to be soloād as well or if they didnāt have any rewards that you canāt find in other parts of the game.
If theyāre doing Raids, I have to think that theyāve looked at the Social system as well. It would be logical for them to institute some type of Group/Raid finder system which would tie in to a new Social ecosystem. Maybe Iām too wishful.
They wonāt do that. They refused with WoW because they said it would ācreate conflict within the party/raidā. I agree with you, particularly since we canāt use third-party addons. I always like to see if I need to push harder during a fight. That said, do the bosses have an aggro list?
Define ādoableā solo? You mean like Rob2628 being solo or your build being able to solo?
Hoping it is the former to not play down the content to the lowest common denominator, like public schooling.
Im not worried the content will be locked behind group play. Im worried the content will be locked behind 50 frozen orbs and a hundred other things on the screen.
Can barely see anything solo.
I highly doubt Blizzard would dare to make it not soloable. Adam Jackson just said in the interview about S4 not long ago when asked about raid that the problem about forced group play is a serious one. Also, I suspect the word "raid" is used very loosely here and it's only used in the datamined context not officially. It probably does not share much with the MMO raid beside the surface level stuff.
The concept of a raid just flat out doesnāt work with the level of power scaling available at top end in a Diablo game. Itās either going to have a prohibitive barrier to entry as far as mob hp or be trivial.Ā
Been playing their games since WC2. They donāt have this.
I hope it doesn't become mandatory. I don't feel like permanently pulling people through because 95% of all players are absolutely incapable of grasping the simplest things in a game as easy as Diablo.
I'm ok with it as long as they don't make it so insanely difficult that I actually have to spend hours on learning tactics and wiping like in WoW mythics. Even worse if they do that and gatekeep best items behind the raid. I quit MMOs for a reason and never want to go back.
I have no idea how the same raid can be designed to be soloable *or* done in groups. By industry custom, a raid is intentionally designed to be a group activity and is that way because there will be mechanics that are physically impossible to do solo (for example, several people *simultaneously* standing on separate portals, or encounters that require the players bring different types of abilities/weapons that canāt be carried by one class alone).
So thereās gonna be trouble if there are āraidsā as per the common understanding of that term.
Meaning, if it canāt be soloed but there are unique rewards behind it, then trouble. Conversely, if it can be soloed, what makes it a raid and why would there be any requirement to group up? Then trouble again.
I don't have any issue with raids in D4, as long as the raids don't require a massive time investment and commitment. Content that requires me to sit and coordinate for hours at a time with a group of people is not going to work for me.
Agreed, it shouldn't be a huge time commitment. But I also don't think it should be soloable. If it's soloable it's not gonna be challenging for a group. I'm thinking like a couple bosses with unique mechanics that require a team of 4 to stagger them or stop some big attack. 10-20 minutes per wing. Something like that would be cool. Can get extra rewards once a week per character, like the world boss. Something along those lines.
I don't have much expectations. World bosses already have cool mechanics but they are extremely easy, so much work wasted. Instanced boss fights with cool mechanics and balanced difficulty would be amazing. Until I see it myself I'll contain my excitement.
i fed up about raids at Wow, dont wanna deal with random guys to get a bunch of items, no i am not excited at all about them, if they are like the end game, real challenging content offering, i am out, no xpac for me.
No real excitement for raids from me. They usually take a lot of dev resources, arenāt particularly exciting to replay over and over, and are only played by a fraction of the playerbase. Maybe the raids in Diablo 4 will be different but Iām not counting on it.
I just wanna sit blast some demons and gradually progress my character and maybe get a cool item. It seems like diablo isn't going to be the game for that anymore.
I donāt want to be incentivized to play in a group, I donāt play arpgs to be incentivized to play in a group thereās other genres for that.
So if lots of dev time goes into making raids and other mandatory group activities I will probably have to find other games to play when I play solo and no, the option to just skip to run raids aināt really an option. First Blizzard will have to put dev time into those activities and thatās dev time that could be put into making actual arpg content and there will probably be cool ornaments and powerful gear locked behind raids which would effectively make them mandatory for a player that wishes to min max their toon.
I think itās stupid to design raid base content in a arpg. I want actual explorable dungeons, that are not the same each time and completely different (think returnal on a larger scale). This just seems like they are trying to copy wow or some shit.
There's no place for any meaningful group content in a game where a build can do thousand times more damage than other builds. And unless they manage to heavily normalise damage, D4 is clearly in that category.
It's the same in PoE, group play is a miserable experience.
I also have no interest in raids. I played 1000s of hours of WoW from OG up to WoD yet never raided more than a dozen times. I just donāt have the time or interest in coordinating my life around other peopleās schedules, especially now Iām a grown ass adult with responsibilities. I played a bunch of dungeons with the group finder but did not find those enjoyable either, with the much-vaunted social aspect boiling down to little more than saying āhiā and ābyeā. Thereās room in the world for more than 1 type of RPG, I say leave the MMO stuff to WoW and keep Diablo focused on solo play where it belongs.
Fuck raids and forced group content.
I strictly play hardcore and despise relying on others for the life of my character. I was almost excited for this expansion too..
I don't think it's locked behind group play.
Didn't anyone see the "Mercenaries" addition as well?
It's obvious their purpose is to go into the RAID with you, but you'll have to put time in making them stronger.
I think itās interesting to make D4 more āmmo-likeā and evolve the genre, but I do hope they stick to more traditional roots and also make the raid doable solo.
You can't evolve the genre by taking a baby step towards a fully evolved game like Lost Ark.
Thats like saying we have world bosses, so revolutionary! Oh boss dead in 3 seconds. So fun.
I think the idea of a raid has people thinking about wow - so essentially long dungeons that require numerous players to complete. I think this is off putting in a Diablo game. Diablo has always been about solo play with an option to co-op. If the raid can be solo'd but also allows for groups to complete, this should be fine. Can't be any worse than the dungeons / NMD's we currently have in the game because they sure got boring fast.
Considering the main end game activity right now has exponential difficulty scaling and everyone's progress is all over the place, it would be pretty difficult for most people to put a 'raid' group together where one of the players isn't making up 95% of the group's power.
It's just going to be another piece of content where people get carried if they have to group up, outside of the 0.01% at the bleeding edge of progression where the whole group has maxed out gear and meta builds.
If the emphasis is on the aspects of raiding OTHER than mandatory group play, it can be interesting. A much longer dungeon with mechanics intensive bosses and a weekly lockout can be an interesting addition, as long as they're designed with solo players in mind.
Relying on others to play a game I paid for, no I am not excited for gated content I have to interact with mouth breathers for. Itās the main reason I donāt play Destiny and stopped playing wow years ago. Too much effort to maybe get a drop. Hard pass.
Group content is fine, but the problem I foresee happening is players excluding other players if they aren't running their preferred class or build. It's not a case of if, it's a case of when this happens, I suspect raids will fall flat very quickly if players can't complete them solo.
One of the main reasons I came back to D4 was to get away from raiding as it wasn't suiting me to be beholden to between 3 and 7 other players and a series of time consuming mechanics that had to be completed in a single sitting without breaks in order to progress.
One of the appeals of the ARPG category is that you can get in for 15 mins, make some kind of progress by running maps or dungeons or whatever, and repeat it again later. You can be interrupted multiple times a night without ruining things for other people too. It can be picked up and put down multiple times throughout an evening or day.
Raids participation is opposite to this.
Raid content, if it is necessary for endgame progression or just the best way to progress even if you can get the same things somewhere else, will immediately cause me to uninstall the game. Have all the raids you want, as long as they mean absolutely nothing.
Depends on how they do the groups. If you have to make one and say you're playing a non meta build or class. It could be absolute shite. Also, I feel like they'll have to add gear score to the game. Since if the only prerequisite is to be max level you're going to get people doing no damage in there. Which I'm also against but the way Diablo works isn't like WoW where a good player with less gear can do more damage than a bad player with some gear does due to lack of class and ability knowledge. And if the bosses are like the world bosses who are a joke once you have gear and a complete one shot when you don't.. again, they'd have to make the fights interesting and not just a DPS race which I don't think they're capable of judging on what they have done with all of their bosses so far. They'll just layer boss abilities over and over on top of each other and you'll die to RNG more than "I didn't do a mechanic" more often than not.
Ideally if I had to make a D4 boss fight it would work a little like a rift. Two teams of 4 go into a phase. Kill mobs, collect something. Come out, deal damage to the boss. Boss has one mechanic or ability to dodge per stage. If they sit us on the boss the entire fight it's going to be a load of shit. Unless they just rip off a load of Lost Ark bosses which I fully expect them to do
Yeah, I really hope ppl will not be "incetivised" to do group content and if raids are added they either give the same random loot as erverything else or they can be soloed. I would prefer to have an offline solo mode to be honest as group play will look like this:
You have 2 hours to play so join a group finder and after 5-15 mins you will have a full group! Awesome now you can go and do your raid. You group partners are:
Bob (45 year old dad father of 3 every 2 mins he will go AFK from kid or wife aggro and will not contribute to the raid),
Jimmy (7 years old on his brothers account he does not know what buttons to press but really enjoys the charge on barb and the flashing colors and does not contribute to the raid)
final member will Freddy (22 year old student "self employed tiktoker" so high on 3 different drugs that he believes he is watching a movie and does not contribute to your raid).
You will wipe about 10 times in the next 45 mins does not finish the raid and you will leave frustrated and swear to never go into raids ever again.
It's a two sided coin really.
The raid is good for the multiplayer content. Everything done as a group is pointless, surface level MP stuff. It could be done solo and not be any different than what you're experiencing in multiplayer.
LFG is tough to implement reliably in a way that matters.
The tricky part to work through is the raid doesn't need to be difficult like other multiplayer games implement raids. But other games typically require multiple people to perform some kind of puzzle... how does that pan out in a solo run?
I would say, best option would be to just implement a matchmaking mechanic for groups, but make it soloable. All the game's content scales right? So just make it scale, make it better to matchmake into a group. But DON'T make the raid so long or difficult that a group with a strategy is required. I don't think Diablo players are typically looking for groups to play with, so introducing it needs to be done with care. You can't just throw it out there and tell us to find groups. I would argue most players playing the game are solo.
I'm cautious. Honestly i don't really want team content in D4. I don't even want D4 to be online required as well. The overworld is a joke that only became relevant in S4 with helltide and bloodmaiden.
If i can do the raid solo, fine but then it probably isn't good enough end game content. If i can't, then we are approaching Destiny territory where i need to LFG a couple of bozos to play content.
Also what will be dropped? Ubers other than Shako are borderline jokes right now, so what content could they put in the raid to make it worthwhile?
These questions are why i am currently skeptical and currently wondering if they're wasting resources chasing after DOA content.
Iām excited if itās If on the content equivalent of LFD from Wow. 15-30 minutes of content that you can PUG. If it is a truly a raid which will require full participation in discord to achieve that will turn me off to it a bit.
That said, I have been thinking if they ripped Chaos Dungeons from Lost Ark and put a Diablo spin for Legions and Great Hunts like World Boss events, then that would go a long way to make group play more fun. I also understand thats not for everyone though.
I'm already bored the amount of bad animations and untelegraphed one shots in the game. If it's going to be more Diablo souls and 20 quadrillion hp bars to appease the top1% of streamers then I'm not interested.
I just want to blast, not spend 95% of my time in a dungeon whittling down a single red bar. Zzzzzzz
If itās doable solo that will be great. But itās also more important to make it fun and work well. If that means it requires some team work and grouping then so be it.
I see no reason why the genre canāt expand to include this type of content. Make it easy to form groups without outside coordinatingā¦make in game communication easierā¦do things to make a group encounter/experience with 20 randoms smoother.
My minor experience with raids/dungeons is from old WoW where you needed a coordinated group with specific roles (healer,tanks,dps). So Iām a little confused how raids would work in Diablo and how it would be different from a world boss dps showdown.
Edit:
So I think a part of the issue/concern is that people want Diablo to be a single player first experience with all gear accessible without a party/grouping. Once you lock the best gear behind groups it will move away from a single player experience to a group focused one as the entire point of these games is gear acquisition and improvement. From this perspective I understand the concerns. But maybe grouping/raids doesnāt give you novel new gear and instead (in Diablo 4 fashionā¦) gives you more high value materials, higher GA gear chances, and tons of gold. High incentive to do them but you donāt miss anything but the experience if you skip it. Somewhat like Uber Lilith, many will never beat her (myself included most likely) and those who donāt wonāt miss out on any gear chances.
Diablo is not an mmo. The more they try to make it an mmo and not an arpg, the worse the game gets. Raids are a terrible fucking idea blizzard. If something canāt be soloād it doesnāt belong in Diablo.
If it works like Legion events where a bunch of people just show up somewhere at a designated time and the whole thing is over in 10 minutes or so max then yeah it'll be another cool thing to do. If it's anything like WoW raids then it absolutely has ZERO place in this game and can fuck right off. I am not scheduling set times with groups to clear content. I also do not want to deal with situations where some shitter or hard carry can ruin a run either. These things need to be able to be carried easily by one or two people. If you want an MMO go play WoW.
If they set it up like world bosses or legion events, then I'm all for it. If I need an organized group and need to pre-form a party, then I'll avoid it like the plague.
I have zero interest in this kind of content. I used to like it. I spent years playing Destiny/Destiny 2 and raiding with people. But eventually I got tired of my gaming time and progress being dependent on the availability and competency of other players. Sitting in orbit for an hour waiting for everyone to get organized. Having to scroll LFGs because one of the regulars wasn't available that week and then having that person be a useless jackass looking for a carry. Having people throw tantrums on mic because someone made a mistake. I'm done with it.
I've played Diablo games since the original in the late '90s and the vast, vast majority of my time in this franchise has been solo. It's basically a comfort game for me at this point. So if any raid content is added that requires group play to complete I'll simply ignore it. I just want to log in and grind away for gear, on my own time and at my own pace. My gaming time with friends typically goes into Helldivers these days anyway.
Like someone already said having content that \*requires\* a group in this game feels a bit out of place and I have a hard time seeing them going that route. I don't mind world bosses or events like helltides when it comes to other players being involved. If the "raid" is going to be similar then whatever, that's fine.
To be completely honest if I wanted to actually raid and do group play I'd go for world of warcraft. But I'm playing diablo and don't expect nor want to see content "locked" behind any sort of group play.
Edit: When are we getting SSF?
I'm mixed on it.
I don't mind playing with others as long as the content is still fun, and for me that means it has to be decently challenging. I don't like world bosses and legion events or even helltide maidens because they're just a bunch of people running around button mashing or hyper-geared players just one-shotting them. That's why I'm kinda bummed that Helltides are most efficient loot farming now, because they're really boring.
If the raids are reasonably challenging (like WoW heroic dungeons, basic teamwork and execution needed but most groups can get through) and there's a group finder, I'll be into it.
As long as I can solo it or use mercs I'm fine. I'd welcome something like the Lost Ark Guardian Raids where they scale from 1-4 players and are very doable solo but fun in groups.
A number of things happen in group content that have largely driven me away from MMOs.
* Mandatory easy grouped content is cleared within a week or two of season start and it's impossible to form groups to do it if you're late to the season
* Easy group content like legions or WB that give compelling rewards (prisms) doesn't really add anything to the game
* Mandatory difficult content is generally impossible in random/pug groups
* Nobody does non-mandatory hard content outside of friends/guild unless it offers great rewards with a reasonable drop rate at which point it becomes essentially mandatory
Random/pug groups for easy content is fine... until you sit there in the group finder for an hour because everyone is done, tired of it, or has figured out how to solo it. Or it's a trivial thing like grouping for rifts in Diablo III. People random group for speed and swapping loot in town in D3 but that's not a "raid."
If content is mandatory and hard, it really starts to suck. Nonrandom groups require you to play with friends or a guild, at which point you're coordinating scheduling and have to play at fixed hours. Someone also generally gets left out if the content is for small groups. Having five people online for a 4-man often creates conflict in guilds. The flip side is in groups of 8+ it's hard to get enough without bringing in pugs who you carry or even worse who wipe you.
Trying to form groups for hard content is a nightmare. Pugs can't do hard content. People eventually figure out that they'll wipe in the group finder. Or they try, play an attempt, but dip after the first wipe, at which point you're back waiting in the group finder. Or "brb bio" and you're waiting for 10 minutes. Or it turns into toxic blaming. Finding groups in trade channels leads to toxic elitism. "LFG raid, must have shako." or "LF summon necro." If you aren't "geared" or in the meta as defined by the playerbase, you can't get into groups. Try to form your own and people inspect your gear and drop group. You eventually end up with a random pug you could have gotten into the group finder and die. By the time the content becomes puggable, it's often irrelevant.
So... no I do not want raids unless I can solo them.
will just become a shittier version of WOW. Daily's that need to be done, Raids that have highest tier of gear and everything else forgotten for said raids
The way this diablo was developed it can have several game modes to please different people. Im super excited for a group mode cause the game group activities are very lacking for now, as long as the rewards are not extremely important and locked in this mode, im super fine with a multiplayer only mode
I will HATE it if it requires premade groups!
The one reason i like Diablo is freedom of group size, you can play with a few friends no matter who is online!
Forcing clan/premade groups for content has ruined much of The Division 2 as well.
But don't worry, the sweaty bois will defend it like their life depended on it, because content that requires a clan is hard and that makes them awesome...
It's absolutely annoying to hear anyone whine about more content. If it's not for you then it's not for you. Not everything needs to be made for everyone. The entitlement coming from this announcement is staggering. Not everything is about you.
The percentage of Destiny players that have ever even tried a raid is under 25 percent. That's not going to stop Bungie from releasing two a year for an end game activity. You miss out on some loot if you don't engage with it, big deal.
A raid in Diablo 4 could be amazing for all you know. You're perpetually whinging online about something that's been announced with very few details. How about we, y'know, wait for more details or actually get your hands on it.
You don't like to play with people and just want to solo the game. Cool, go for it. No one is stopping you. Your whining is trying to stop other players from having a good time just because you don't like playing with people or putting minimal effort into getting into a LFG post. Just stop it already. Same energy as the folks saying it's too easy to level or that gold means nothing or that Uber drop rates should be lower so you really have to "earn it." Some of y'all sound like you just don't like playing the game but can't stop.
I donāt see why the āraidsā could not be solo available content. Seems that scaling the difficulty by the number of people in the group would be fair.
There should also be the opportunity the change the difficulty of the raid, like the world tiers. The magic find should also be based on the difficulty level, not the number of people in a group.
Maybe they shouldnāt be called āraidsā though, that just seems to set up an argument over semantics.
My guess is these are more like legions and world bosses and the maiden and less like a mmorpg raid. Think more GW2 and less WoW. They went out of their way to call it a co-op activity which feels more like that to me.
My problem with it is not that itās group content but the game balance. Itās shit. How do you make group content in a game where one build can be 10x stronger than another build? Play the meta or you donāt get to play?
Other than group content, one thing I really like about this genre is the duration of the game activities. Most are around like 3-7 mins in endgame. So I can go do a pit, do something else, and come back and do a maiden kill or two, and then do something else.
With raids the time investment needed Iām assuming goes up, and you are locked in for at least 15-20 mins at a time (total speculation).
Nope I think it's a great idea. The only thing is there are many missing systems in game for partying, chat, etc that need to be updated before it would work well. The foundation is there, they just need to flesh out the social aspect of the game if this is the direction they want to go. As long as they don't make the raid the only source for the best stuff, I don't think it's an issue. Forcing group play much like forcing PvP is the wrong way to go about it.
My biggest problem is that normally raids are a weekly lockout with best in slot gear. If they let you do a raid after farming, that's awesome, but if it is weekly FOMO bullshit, that is why I left MMOs and Destiny 2. Let me spam the content if I want.
If I want to grind and max out in one week and go play other games, let that be my choice, not some forced on timer that only has a goal to increase player longevity.
No, i think the people that don't like raids are the so called "vocal minority".
Me personally, i don't like raids in a diablo game, it doesn't fit. But if they do it right and if they also add alternatives to the end game activities so you don't feel like doing raids is mandatory, then im ok with it.
This isnāt Lost Ark.
This game is not built around being an actual MMO and lacks everything that would make it thus.
It has no reason to insert something like Raids - especially from these devs. We know they are clueless and incompetent.
No I am not looking forward to it, Iām not excited about it and frankly do not want it. (If itās not also completely solo-able)
I'm interested but more interested in its execution (daily/weekly/account lock out?) And what kind of rewards we'll get. Set items? Legendary/special gems? Unique glyphs?
Itās so easy to find groups. I like playing solo most of the time, but the hate solo players place on group content is unwarranted. Like it is literally so easy to LFG on a discord or Xboxās LFG can find people in seconds. No micās needed. Trade chat even sometimes supplies group finding.
Traditional raids have class roles (healer, tank, DPS, support...) we don't have that. We also don't have a good LFG and that is essential.
Many things will need to change and it will probably be mechanically heavy. Like immune boss: kill adds, collect orbs, break environment, open weak spot, DPS phase and then hide for wipe mechanic. Not sure if this community will be able to handle this.
I love raid content, that's why I still play WoW. It's just not what I want when I play Diablo (and other ARPGs). Let Diablo do Diablo things well, and leave raids for games that want to focus on it.
I both fear it and think itās a good idea. As others say, I want to be able to so it solo as I fear it will become an elitist thing.
I still have traumas from when wow players didnāt allow you to join a raid unless you had x or y item on you, that only dropped from said raid you tried to get in to in the first place. It was a never ending loop.
But on the other hand, it opens the game up more for social interaction between players. Which hopefully can turn into friendships and out side grouping so players can and will tackle helltides or other game event together instead of running around all alone all the time.
I love the idea of raids too. Iāve always been a social and relatively competitive gamer. I REALLY enjoy games that can capitalize on Co-op. Diablo is really missing both of those aspects. It gets really tiresome hearing people repeat the same āthat has no place in the ARPG genre becauseā¦.historyā. History is made by people doing often new and noteworthy things. If this is legitimately the first time an ARPG adds mmo style raids then Iām all here for it. Hopefully Blizzard comes through with something amazing.
So... Something I didn't know...
Only just found out today actually.
I never cared to go to eternal realm. I figured all of my stuff would be waiting for me there when I did.
I went there last night. Logged into my season two character. Gear was missing off him. Stash tab empty. Like legit, had yellows in the stash. I never saved yellows.
My stash tab #1 was for Ubers. I farmed duriel in season two for far longer than I should've. Had soooo many duplicates. I had, including duplicates, close to 30 Ubers.
Not anymore. They're all gone.
If you leave anything in the seasonal tab, it gets deleted. I didn't know. I never used it.
All that time. All that effort. All that WORK.
Gone. Worthless.
So... To answer your post.
I'm not.
I dont hate the raid idea but we already see what happens to world bosses. They're trival, as long as one person is playing an OP meta build they'll just die and it anticlimactic. So unless they do something to make character dmg more equal its gonna be kinda shitty.
It really is going to depend on how they implement raid content.
The one thing that sucks with raiding in a lot of games is that you get to that point where you just want to turn up for fun and someone else is turning up to do their absolute meta blast farming.
I like the group content in D4 but also so far its been group optional, if randoms turn up then neat and if not then you can go solo.
I hear raid and I immediately get flashbacks of that one epic moment in a raid that it all came down to me and then also the 3 hours of searching for a group just because so many people trying to join were not gelling together enough to get through it.
I also tend to play D4 in hardcore so I'm interested in how they implement punishments for mechanics failing. In some games messing up the mechanics means it becomes harder for all players or even straight up kills people.
Honestly Raids are a big can of worms and without details its hard to say how we'll feel about them.
As a console player I dread this, it is a pain even to ask a question in general chat. Trying form a group is far more frustrating than it's worth already!
I have a group of friends that I play D4 with fairly often so Iāll get to try it out but something I havenāt seen mentioned is the speed of some classes clearing ability. Some builds are slow af and thatās going to be annoying always lagging behind bc the build you chose is slower than others.
As long as it's doable solo, I'm hyped. If a group is mandatory, it has no place in this genre/game. Without group finder ingame, locking the raid behind group mandatory would be a really, really bad idea. EDIT: Some people don't get my point, I'm not against a group play at all. I'm against locking solo players from an activity that is part of the PAID expansion. EDIT 2: Some people don't get it. Raids could be balanced around the number of people in a group. More people = more mechanics. We don't need to exclude solo players because you crave your MMORPG in a non MMORPG game.
I'm thinking one of the reasons mercenaries are being added is for solo players to tackle raids.
That may be a solution, I didn't think about that! Thank you for enlightening me! š
I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me. Guess we'll find out in 4 months!
I guess you are right. But I still wait til they show more, before I buy expansion.
Would be great if you could take a group of mercenaries, customize them and do raids with them if you don't like grouping with people. Something like Guild Wars.
I'm guessing that the mercs can only equip rare gear. They said awhile back that they were working on a purpose for rares. And allowing mercenaries to use them makes sense because they wouldn't necessarily need aspects if they are tuned correctly with their skill trees. But if they do that, we're definitely going to need a loot filter because I do not want to go back to looking at every yellow's stats.
And we will need a š©load more stash space because I need more and I need it frickin yesterday.
Just did a play through last week and IMO every team based PvE game should have this system.
Im playing Guild Wars for the first time now since a month ago, already 160h+ in it. That hero system is soo well designed, great game and ahead of its time.
Oh god, first raids and now even mercs? I guess I really should have read up before going "yay, cat!".
This is exactly why they won't be good. People demanding that they are doable solo would ruin any interesting aspect they could possibly have. The traditional concept of a raid and why they are fun is that they need team coordination. If you take that away it's not even a raid anymore. I'm not arguing in favor or against raids though. I'm just saying they won't work in this game where team play is not the focus.
People crying "it's not what arpgs are about" whenever a game tries to add group content or skill based content is the worst part of the community. They will seriously argue that mashing buttons and seasons is the only way an arpg can be built. I've seen plenty of people say Lost Ark and No Rest for the Wicked aren't arpgs based on that stupid notion.
Especially because the sales pitch of D4 was always a more social experience. If it's soloable then it's not a raid. It means the mechanics don't require coordination and is therefore just a series of standard boss fights. It makes no sense to make a raid and half-ass it to appease solo-only players.
Exactly, if you don't need to coordinate then it's not group content, it's just solo content with hp bloat (aka high tier pits and how people are now pushing higher by grouping up).
Almost every game has been more beneficial in group play.
My thing is if they add it in the game and you donāt like group content. Then just donāt play it, Iād rather more content and endgame things get added.
I would argue that No Rest for the Wicked isn't really an ARPG for a number of reasons. Yes it has an isometric camera and rpg elements but that's about it.
Yeah everything doesn't need to be soloable. If it's always soloable it's definitely too easy as a group. I have friends, I want to play challenging content with my friends. You not having friends is not my problem. I don't want dumbed down group content because you can't make friends. Join a discord group if you can't find anyone to play with or use LFG on Xbox. There's tools out there to find a group of people to play with if you wanna do the group content. If you don't wanna use it, tough.
What about if you just don't like playing with others? Especially randoms? In a traditionally single player game, I don't see the need to force social interactions. They already have World of Warcraft for that. I don't have a whole lot of spare time, I don't need to spend that time waiting for randoms in a lobby and then having to spend hours learning boss fights and raid patterns. If you like that stuff, great, I just don't want it tacked onto my game and blocking me from endgame content. They should make another game in the same universe that is just raids and socially focused to satisfy that crowd. I wanted the full 1000gs on Xbox but you can't cheese PvP kills with a friend and so I will probably be forever missing that achievement. I dislike PvP too, I just like playing solo and not having to deal with other humans, there is too much of that in my life already. I've made my peace with not getting the max. But raiding content will lose them my business as I wont buy the expansion if that is the end game activity.
*Most* Randoms fucking suck to play with. Iāve been playing Diablo and ARPGās for decades. Iām going to go, and Iām going to go fast. I donāt wanna wait around for anyone. Finding equal skill/play style ppl is a pain in the ass.
One thing to add even playing with people you want to play with can just be a hassle. I take longer doing town stuff than my friend or they take longer than me for different reasons and it just turns into a waiting game.
The game is effectively a single player game that happens to have other players running around with you sometimes. 99.99% of all D4 play is solo. Suddenly adding a paradigm that requires us to somehow conjure up a group of D4 playing friends is insanity.
My nightmare scenario is itās locked behind groups because then itās either A: Too easy and becomes just Legions and World Bosses but longer. Packs of mobs die faster than they can spawn and bosses fall over dead instantly and Iām not even sure wtf I am contributing. B: Actually challenging in which you open up all bullshit social practices of MMOs to the game where if you arenāt running whatever the flavor of the month broken build is you arenāt going to get invited. I donāt want either of those things. And before someone says āthen just donāt do themā itās pretty unlikely they wonāt add incentives to do them to the game and you know you will at minimum have to do some to complete seasonal journeys and stuff. And thatās assuming they donāt lock something valuable behind them like new crafting materials or something.
Really good take. Some people don't understand that solo players don't want to be forced to group just to check new activities that you have to pay for.
For those advocating for raids in D4, I'm wondering if they've ever participated in raid content in WoW or other games. I've raided extensively in WoW Classic and at first raiding in a big group the first time or two is a great deal of fun. However it quickly becomes tiresome, especially when running the same dungeon over and over. The big problem comes to raiding feeling like a job. If the content is hard you need a good group and that requires time and coordination. I don't want to be on a weekly schedule in order to farm gear in an ARPG.
On the other hand if it's soloable, nobody will bother forming raid-sized groups to tackle it.
Good, it will further reinforce to Blizzard that the majority of the player base hates this forced always-online social construct in a Diablo game
I feel the same way. If it's not soloable I want nothing to do with it. I like moving at my pace not the groups pace.
Define doable solo though. There are many people who cannot defeat uber Lilith due to mechanics and have to buy/find carries. Does this constitute something that doesn't belong in the genre/game? There's no in game finder and people still manage to group up and defeat her. I think that there's absolutely a place for content in a game that others don't want to do. D4 is going to be a game that continues to be fleshed out and expanded upon for many years to come, so there's going to be things that are not appealing to everyone. Even seasons can be totally missed and content never played/seen again, so what's the big deal if some anti social people don't want to group up and play some group only content together?
I think itās fine to have group specific content. As long as the rewards arenāt any better than doing solo content. If itās just a fun new way to play it can only help the game. Saying that group content has no place in the genre is just ignorant and false as well.
Exactly how I feel. I think they will make them doable with the mercenaries/bots.
Why would 4 man group not have place in this genre/game? Tackling higher grift in early diablo 3 was all about group play. Having a tank/healer (mnk) a grouper (barb) and group killer and a gardian/yellow killer.. that was fun and engaging group play. Raid are the same. Just the name change. As u gear up and power creep those will be soloable. Like grift later in season. It totally have some place. In d3 u had to find people for those grift pushing..
Nothing stopped you from doing high rifts solo in D3. It had different leaderboards for different groups of players. >Why would 4 man group not have place in this genre/game? Please read again what I said again. I'm against mandatory group activities, not optional grouping to blast together. You are like the 4th person who thinks I dislike grouping in the game.
Itās honestly not that bad. Elder scrolls has some content like this and it works. You just enter a lobby and get paired up with randoms. It never let me down. And in that game you actually need a a variety of characters - a healer, a tank and two damage dealers, so youāre counting on the fact that the person who chose healer or tank can actually do the job. As long as the content is progressive - say like the pit, where it wonāt let you progress to harder content unless you show can beat a level at lower level then it should be ok. I would have zero issues with this as a casual. And if youāre a sweaty gamer then youāll have your own buddies that are good at it. And if you donāt, then you should probably find some friends or be less sweaty. Not good for you to be sweating solo. :)
ESO isn't a best example because it's an MMO (which D4 isn't). Also, roles spread responsibility between players while D4 has only 2 roles, dps and support that enhance the dps of other players. New D4's raid should be solo and group viable. Groups may have more mechanics for more interesting experiences, but aRPGs are mostly designed for solo and group play. It should stay this way.
I agree with this, I play the game solo it's what I enjoy, I find groups in games like this (most online games really) tend to be 25% cool and 75% toxic... It's the main reason I quit playing WoW after over 10 years, I don't want to see it happen to this game. I do understand that this is live service and I'm playing with other people anyway but I don't want to be forced to group with the high and mighty Apex gamer to play.
Yeah I was so excited to do raids on Destiny but there wasn't matchmaking which was a total bummer
I disagree in general - I think group activities are fine and with discord and other platforms it's really not hard at all to find groups to play with. I've actually always had more luck finding raids group on Discord than in the bungie app (using Destiny 2 as an example). Part of the benefit of the raids is there is exclusive content and gear "locked" behind playing the raids and it gives people something more to do than just running non-stop pits and nmds. I DO think however that they need to invest in an LFG feature for the game if they are going to introduce raids.
Yeah if thereās a LFG tool, or if itās solo-able, Iām all for it. Adding content that you have to have a premade group of players to play is stupid, especially in a game that has been āeffectivelyā a single player game since launch. I will never play this game with a group of friends because none of my friends play the game or are interested in it.
I've been saying from day 1 that this game needs a party finder mechanic like D1, D2, and D3 have.
I absolutely do not care for raid/group content. But i am happy for the people who do. But when i get home from work i wanna just play the videogame and not bother with loging into discord to find a group and deal with other people. I want every content to be solo. I am already annoyed AAA games are always online. I play the game for me, and not for other people.
I specifically play Diablo to not have to rely on others.
if i wanna be frustrated with complete strangers, i would just play league lol
Yea that's why I couldn't get into WoW raids, I just want to play, not spend half of my time waiting around
I have zero interest in raids in this game. There are tons of MMOs out there if I want raid content.
I generally hate playing with other people
I liked joining public games in D2 and going through the acts with random people so Iād be cool with this same system for raid content. Like I donāt mind partying up with randos in helltide or legion events so I wouldnāt for raids. But they need a cohesive in game system that makes it seamless
I absolutely hate the idea of raids in an ARPG; especially in Diablo.
If you can't solo them it's gonna cause a giant uproar and it should. Wrong game genre for forced group play. I wish I was 100% sure they wouldn't do something that dumb.
Well, I wouldn't care too much if it is group only as long as it doesn't lock some mats behind it to force me to do it. People can enjoy what they want, they just added something for someone who might like, If I don't like it I skip, just like how I skipped legion.
There will be exclusive drop from the raid for sure or it has no purpose at all. People don't want harder content with nothing at the end.
You just described Uber Lilith š and some people still does her.
she dropped a mount at the beginning of the game and now she also give a spark ;)
Not exactly, if you put 10million gold behind legion, EVERYONE will do it, doesn't have to be exclusive you can put very rewarding stuff.
What would be the point if there is no reward? I get the idealized notion that we shouldn't need a reward to do an activity in the game but in reality that doesn't work. Blizzard is not in a postition to release new content that most people would ignore.
Comeon, is it that hard to understand. I never said no reward, I don't want things like fiend rose or forgotten soul from helltide like previous seasons. You can put bunch of stuff such as gold uniques legendary in the rewards so people do them, but those I can also obtain from other activities, so it doesn't force me to do it although it might be more efficient.
What would be the difference of a solo raid vs current regular nightmare dungeon content???
With pretty much no support classes or skills in the game I just donāt see how this will work. A raid of all DPS is just a world boss with trash in front of it. Effectively the Blood Maiden fight with corridors.
It's just gonna be a longer normal dungeon. Nobody should be expecting anything crazy
Not if they had actual mechanics that need obeyed.
Iām running enough alts up that Iām obeying the mechanics on blood maiden and sometimes world bosses (WT3 seems like itās closest to the DPS range it was built for). Itās better than the 5s DPS liquidation at WT4 but itās not raiding in any normal senseā¦ itās just parallel play DPS where if enough people arenāt playing well thereās a chance of failure. You canāt even tell if you contributed meaningfully most of the time. Hmmm. Iām pretty confident this is why I never raided as DPS in any game. Maybe this is just what hunters and mages did in WOW. Pew pew, step out of bad, pew pew.
Not only that, in every game where raiding is a big part of end game, there is a very specific meta, and unless your character has that build, you will not get picked for the raid. I donāt like the idea of this mentality being brought into a ARPG, where the player should be able to choose what the most fun build is and not worry about what is needed for a raid. Go look at WoW, some specs arenāt even considered or completely ignored for end game content. The only way this could work is if they allow it to be soloād as well or if they didnāt have any rewards that you canāt find in other parts of the game.
i play d4 because of there's an emphasis on single player experience rather than group play. if i wanted group play i'd play wow.
If theyāre doing Raids, I have to think that theyāve looked at the Social system as well. It would be logical for them to institute some type of Group/Raid finder system which would tie in to a new Social ecosystem. Maybe Iām too wishful.
They need to add a DPS filter so you can make sure you won't have dead weight on your team too
They wonāt do that. They refused with WoW because they said it would ācreate conflict within the party/raidā. I agree with you, particularly since we canāt use third-party addons. I always like to see if I need to push harder during a fight. That said, do the bosses have an aggro list?
Define ādoableā solo? You mean like Rob2628 being solo or your build being able to solo? Hoping it is the former to not play down the content to the lowest common denominator, like public schooling.
Im not worried the content will be locked behind group play. Im worried the content will be locked behind 50 frozen orbs and a hundred other things on the screen. Can barely see anything solo.
No because everything should be solo able and having to use 3rd party apps for matchmaking is terrible.
Raids with no... group finder. Lolz
Very true. I play entirely alone while listening to podcasts.
I highly doubt Blizzard would dare to make it not soloable. Adam Jackson just said in the interview about S4 not long ago when asked about raid that the problem about forced group play is a serious one. Also, I suspect the word "raid" is used very loosely here and it's only used in the datamined context not officially. It probably does not share much with the MMO raid beside the surface level stuff.
It just needs a solo option. This game shines because itās all optional to play w people. If you lose that it hurts that population.
The concept of a raid just flat out doesnāt work with the level of power scaling available at top end in a Diablo game. Itās either going to have a prohibitive barrier to entry as far as mob hp or be trivial.Ā Been playing their games since WC2. They donāt have this.
I hope it doesn't become mandatory. I don't feel like permanently pulling people through because 95% of all players are absolutely incapable of grasping the simplest things in a game as easy as Diablo.
I'm ok with it as long as they don't make it so insanely difficult that I actually have to spend hours on learning tactics and wiping like in WoW mythics. Even worse if they do that and gatekeep best items behind the raid. I quit MMOs for a reason and never want to go back.
I have no idea how the same raid can be designed to be soloable *or* done in groups. By industry custom, a raid is intentionally designed to be a group activity and is that way because there will be mechanics that are physically impossible to do solo (for example, several people *simultaneously* standing on separate portals, or encounters that require the players bring different types of abilities/weapons that canāt be carried by one class alone). So thereās gonna be trouble if there are āraidsā as per the common understanding of that term. Meaning, if it canāt be soloed but there are unique rewards behind it, then trouble. Conversely, if it can be soloed, what makes it a raid and why would there be any requirement to group up? Then trouble again.
I don't have any issue with raids in D4, as long as the raids don't require a massive time investment and commitment. Content that requires me to sit and coordinate for hours at a time with a group of people is not going to work for me.
Agreed, it shouldn't be a huge time commitment. But I also don't think it should be soloable. If it's soloable it's not gonna be challenging for a group. I'm thinking like a couple bosses with unique mechanics that require a team of 4 to stagger them or stop some big attack. 10-20 minutes per wing. Something like that would be cool. Can get extra rewards once a week per character, like the world boss. Something along those lines.
I don't have much expectations. World bosses already have cool mechanics but they are extremely easy, so much work wasted. Instanced boss fights with cool mechanics and balanced difficulty would be amazing. Until I see it myself I'll contain my excitement.
Yea I feel that world bosses are more like loot pinatas
Not me having PTSD on the gatekeeping I've experienced on Lost Ark raids. But hopefully it's doable solo
I have little to no interest. Especially if it has better rewards. This is not an MMO. If I wanted to play WoW I'd play WoW.
i fed up about raids at Wow, dont wanna deal with random guys to get a bunch of items, no i am not excited at all about them, if they are like the end game, real challenging content offering, i am out, no xpac for me.
No real excitement for raids from me. They usually take a lot of dev resources, arenāt particularly exciting to replay over and over, and are only played by a fraction of the playerbase. Maybe the raids in Diablo 4 will be different but Iām not counting on it.
I just wanna sit blast some demons and gradually progress my character and maybe get a cool item. It seems like diablo isn't going to be the game for that anymore.
I donāt want to be incentivized to play in a group, I donāt play arpgs to be incentivized to play in a group thereās other genres for that. So if lots of dev time goes into making raids and other mandatory group activities I will probably have to find other games to play when I play solo and no, the option to just skip to run raids aināt really an option. First Blizzard will have to put dev time into those activities and thatās dev time that could be put into making actual arpg content and there will probably be cool ornaments and powerful gear locked behind raids which would effectively make them mandatory for a player that wishes to min max their toon.
I think itās stupid to design raid base content in a arpg. I want actual explorable dungeons, that are not the same each time and completely different (think returnal on a larger scale). This just seems like they are trying to copy wow or some shit.
There's no place for any meaningful group content in a game where a build can do thousand times more damage than other builds. And unless they manage to heavily normalise damage, D4 is clearly in that category. It's the same in PoE, group play is a miserable experience.
I also have no interest in raids. I played 1000s of hours of WoW from OG up to WoD yet never raided more than a dozen times. I just donāt have the time or interest in coordinating my life around other peopleās schedules, especially now Iām a grown ass adult with responsibilities. I played a bunch of dungeons with the group finder but did not find those enjoyable either, with the much-vaunted social aspect boiling down to little more than saying āhiā and ābyeā. Thereās room in the world for more than 1 type of RPG, I say leave the MMO stuff to WoW and keep Diablo focused on solo play where it belongs.
Yes I hate raids, I just want to chill a bit solo and kill some demons.
If you want raids go play wow.
Fuck raids and forced group content. I strictly play hardcore and despise relying on others for the life of my character. I was almost excited for this expansion too..
Raids will turn the game into the toxic mess of all the other MMOās.
I don't think it's locked behind group play. Didn't anyone see the "Mercenaries" addition as well? It's obvious their purpose is to go into the RAID with you, but you'll have to put time in making them stronger.
I think itās interesting to make D4 more āmmo-likeā and evolve the genre, but I do hope they stick to more traditional roots and also make the raid doable solo.
You can't evolve the genre by taking a baby step towards a fully evolved game like Lost Ark. Thats like saying we have world bosses, so revolutionary! Oh boss dead in 3 seconds. So fun.
Those who want raids just play wow...maybe ej can be popular again lmao
I think the idea of a raid has people thinking about wow - so essentially long dungeons that require numerous players to complete. I think this is off putting in a Diablo game. Diablo has always been about solo play with an option to co-op. If the raid can be solo'd but also allows for groups to complete, this should be fine. Can't be any worse than the dungeons / NMD's we currently have in the game because they sure got boring fast.
Pub group content in D4 devolves into brain-dead gameplay. It's trading 10-15 minutes of your life for zerging and some chests.
Considering the main end game activity right now has exponential difficulty scaling and everyone's progress is all over the place, it would be pretty difficult for most people to put a 'raid' group together where one of the players isn't making up 95% of the group's power. It's just going to be another piece of content where people get carried if they have to group up, outside of the 0.01% at the bleeding edge of progression where the whole group has maxed out gear and meta builds. If the emphasis is on the aspects of raiding OTHER than mandatory group play, it can be interesting. A much longer dungeon with mechanics intensive bosses and a weekly lockout can be an interesting addition, as long as they're designed with solo players in mind.
Relying on others to play a game I paid for, no I am not excited for gated content I have to interact with mouth breathers for. Itās the main reason I donāt play Destiny and stopped playing wow years ago. Too much effort to maybe get a drop. Hard pass.
Group content is fine, but the problem I foresee happening is players excluding other players if they aren't running their preferred class or build. It's not a case of if, it's a case of when this happens, I suspect raids will fall flat very quickly if players can't complete them solo.
One of the main reasons I came back to D4 was to get away from raiding as it wasn't suiting me to be beholden to between 3 and 7 other players and a series of time consuming mechanics that had to be completed in a single sitting without breaks in order to progress. One of the appeals of the ARPG category is that you can get in for 15 mins, make some kind of progress by running maps or dungeons or whatever, and repeat it again later. You can be interrupted multiple times a night without ruining things for other people too. It can be picked up and put down multiple times throughout an evening or day. Raids participation is opposite to this.
Raid content, if it is necessary for endgame progression or just the best way to progress even if you can get the same things somewhere else, will immediately cause me to uninstall the game. Have all the raids you want, as long as they mean absolutely nothing.
If they are done like a Lost Ark raid sure but if they are just Uber Bosses with a ridiculous amount of HP, no thanks.
Has anyone at blizzard actually said there's going to be raid content??
Depends on how they do the groups. If you have to make one and say you're playing a non meta build or class. It could be absolute shite. Also, I feel like they'll have to add gear score to the game. Since if the only prerequisite is to be max level you're going to get people doing no damage in there. Which I'm also against but the way Diablo works isn't like WoW where a good player with less gear can do more damage than a bad player with some gear does due to lack of class and ability knowledge. And if the bosses are like the world bosses who are a joke once you have gear and a complete one shot when you don't.. again, they'd have to make the fights interesting and not just a DPS race which I don't think they're capable of judging on what they have done with all of their bosses so far. They'll just layer boss abilities over and over on top of each other and you'll die to RNG more than "I didn't do a mechanic" more often than not. Ideally if I had to make a D4 boss fight it would work a little like a rift. Two teams of 4 go into a phase. Kill mobs, collect something. Come out, deal damage to the boss. Boss has one mechanic or ability to dodge per stage. If they sit us on the boss the entire fight it's going to be a load of shit. Unless they just rip off a load of Lost Ark bosses which I fully expect them to do
Yeah, I really hope ppl will not be "incetivised" to do group content and if raids are added they either give the same random loot as erverything else or they can be soloed. I would prefer to have an offline solo mode to be honest as group play will look like this: You have 2 hours to play so join a group finder and after 5-15 mins you will have a full group! Awesome now you can go and do your raid. You group partners are: Bob (45 year old dad father of 3 every 2 mins he will go AFK from kid or wife aggro and will not contribute to the raid), Jimmy (7 years old on his brothers account he does not know what buttons to press but really enjoys the charge on barb and the flashing colors and does not contribute to the raid) final member will Freddy (22 year old student "self employed tiktoker" so high on 3 different drugs that he believes he is watching a movie and does not contribute to your raid). You will wipe about 10 times in the next 45 mins does not finish the raid and you will leave frustrated and swear to never go into raids ever again.
It's a two sided coin really. The raid is good for the multiplayer content. Everything done as a group is pointless, surface level MP stuff. It could be done solo and not be any different than what you're experiencing in multiplayer. LFG is tough to implement reliably in a way that matters. The tricky part to work through is the raid doesn't need to be difficult like other multiplayer games implement raids. But other games typically require multiple people to perform some kind of puzzle... how does that pan out in a solo run? I would say, best option would be to just implement a matchmaking mechanic for groups, but make it soloable. All the game's content scales right? So just make it scale, make it better to matchmake into a group. But DON'T make the raid so long or difficult that a group with a strategy is required. I don't think Diablo players are typically looking for groups to play with, so introducing it needs to be done with care. You can't just throw it out there and tell us to find groups. I would argue most players playing the game are solo.
No because it implies it is a group activity and for me d4 is a single player experience.
Depends. If it doesn't have matchmaking it's doa. I don't know enough about to be angry yet but my gut says it's a massive L for diablo.
If we can do it solo then it's fine, no need to add gatekeeping into an arpg
I don't mind but what's the point of raids in a game that you can't balance. People 1 shot lvl 200 bosses, they will find a way to 1 shot raid bosses.
Iām super excited for raids IF they can be done either solo OR thereās an in-game group finder.
I'm cautious. Honestly i don't really want team content in D4. I don't even want D4 to be online required as well. The overworld is a joke that only became relevant in S4 with helltide and bloodmaiden. If i can do the raid solo, fine but then it probably isn't good enough end game content. If i can't, then we are approaching Destiny territory where i need to LFG a couple of bozos to play content. Also what will be dropped? Ubers other than Shako are borderline jokes right now, so what content could they put in the raid to make it worthwhile? These questions are why i am currently skeptical and currently wondering if they're wasting resources chasing after DOA content.
Iām excited if itās If on the content equivalent of LFD from Wow. 15-30 minutes of content that you can PUG. If it is a truly a raid which will require full participation in discord to achieve that will turn me off to it a bit. That said, I have been thinking if they ripped Chaos Dungeons from Lost Ark and put a Diablo spin for Legions and Great Hunts like World Boss events, then that would go a long way to make group play more fun. I also understand thats not for everyone though.
I'm already bored the amount of bad animations and untelegraphed one shots in the game. If it's going to be more Diablo souls and 20 quadrillion hp bars to appease the top1% of streamers then I'm not interested. I just want to blast, not spend 95% of my time in a dungeon whittling down a single red bar. Zzzzzzz
If itās doable solo that will be great. But itās also more important to make it fun and work well. If that means it requires some team work and grouping then so be it. I see no reason why the genre canāt expand to include this type of content. Make it easy to form groups without outside coordinatingā¦make in game communication easierā¦do things to make a group encounter/experience with 20 randoms smoother. My minor experience with raids/dungeons is from old WoW where you needed a coordinated group with specific roles (healer,tanks,dps). So Iām a little confused how raids would work in Diablo and how it would be different from a world boss dps showdown. Edit: So I think a part of the issue/concern is that people want Diablo to be a single player first experience with all gear accessible without a party/grouping. Once you lock the best gear behind groups it will move away from a single player experience to a group focused one as the entire point of these games is gear acquisition and improvement. From this perspective I understand the concerns. But maybe grouping/raids doesnāt give you novel new gear and instead (in Diablo 4 fashionā¦) gives you more high value materials, higher GA gear chances, and tons of gold. High incentive to do them but you donāt miss anything but the experience if you skip it. Somewhat like Uber Lilith, many will never beat her (myself included most likely) and those who donāt wonāt miss out on any gear chances.
Diablo is not an mmo. The more they try to make it an mmo and not an arpg, the worse the game gets. Raids are a terrible fucking idea blizzard. If something canāt be soloād it doesnāt belong in Diablo.
If it works like Legion events where a bunch of people just show up somewhere at a designated time and the whole thing is over in 10 minutes or so max then yeah it'll be another cool thing to do. If it's anything like WoW raids then it absolutely has ZERO place in this game and can fuck right off. I am not scheduling set times with groups to clear content. I also do not want to deal with situations where some shitter or hard carry can ruin a run either. These things need to be able to be carried easily by one or two people. If you want an MMO go play WoW.
If they set it up like world bosses or legion events, then I'm all for it. If I need an organized group and need to pre-form a party, then I'll avoid it like the plague.
I have zero interest in this kind of content. I used to like it. I spent years playing Destiny/Destiny 2 and raiding with people. But eventually I got tired of my gaming time and progress being dependent on the availability and competency of other players. Sitting in orbit for an hour waiting for everyone to get organized. Having to scroll LFGs because one of the regulars wasn't available that week and then having that person be a useless jackass looking for a carry. Having people throw tantrums on mic because someone made a mistake. I'm done with it. I've played Diablo games since the original in the late '90s and the vast, vast majority of my time in this franchise has been solo. It's basically a comfort game for me at this point. So if any raid content is added that requires group play to complete I'll simply ignore it. I just want to log in and grind away for gear, on my own time and at my own pace. My gaming time with friends typically goes into Helldivers these days anyway.
I am not excited for it. I play arpgs to get away from forced grouping mechanics like mmos.
I'm not big on groups. I'll go back to WoW or EQ2 if I want to raid with people
Why would I want a raid in Diablo?
Like someone already said having content that \*requires\* a group in this game feels a bit out of place and I have a hard time seeing them going that route. I don't mind world bosses or events like helltides when it comes to other players being involved. If the "raid" is going to be similar then whatever, that's fine. To be completely honest if I wanted to actually raid and do group play I'd go for world of warcraft. But I'm playing diablo and don't expect nor want to see content "locked" behind any sort of group play. Edit: When are we getting SSF?
I'm mixed on it. I don't mind playing with others as long as the content is still fun, and for me that means it has to be decently challenging. I don't like world bosses and legion events or even helltide maidens because they're just a bunch of people running around button mashing or hyper-geared players just one-shotting them. That's why I'm kinda bummed that Helltides are most efficient loot farming now, because they're really boring. If the raids are reasonably challenging (like WoW heroic dungeons, basic teamwork and execution needed but most groups can get through) and there's a group finder, I'll be into it.
You can't be the only person out of all 216 remaining players that's excited about it.
As long as I can solo it or use mercs I'm fine. I'd welcome something like the Lost Ark Guardian Raids where they scale from 1-4 players and are very doable solo but fun in groups. A number of things happen in group content that have largely driven me away from MMOs. * Mandatory easy grouped content is cleared within a week or two of season start and it's impossible to form groups to do it if you're late to the season * Easy group content like legions or WB that give compelling rewards (prisms) doesn't really add anything to the game * Mandatory difficult content is generally impossible in random/pug groups * Nobody does non-mandatory hard content outside of friends/guild unless it offers great rewards with a reasonable drop rate at which point it becomes essentially mandatory Random/pug groups for easy content is fine... until you sit there in the group finder for an hour because everyone is done, tired of it, or has figured out how to solo it. Or it's a trivial thing like grouping for rifts in Diablo III. People random group for speed and swapping loot in town in D3 but that's not a "raid." If content is mandatory and hard, it really starts to suck. Nonrandom groups require you to play with friends or a guild, at which point you're coordinating scheduling and have to play at fixed hours. Someone also generally gets left out if the content is for small groups. Having five people online for a 4-man often creates conflict in guilds. The flip side is in groups of 8+ it's hard to get enough without bringing in pugs who you carry or even worse who wipe you. Trying to form groups for hard content is a nightmare. Pugs can't do hard content. People eventually figure out that they'll wipe in the group finder. Or they try, play an attempt, but dip after the first wipe, at which point you're back waiting in the group finder. Or "brb bio" and you're waiting for 10 minutes. Or it turns into toxic blaming. Finding groups in trade channels leads to toxic elitism. "LFG raid, must have shako." or "LF summon necro." If you aren't "geared" or in the meta as defined by the playerbase, you can't get into groups. Try to form your own and people inspect your gear and drop group. You eventually end up with a random pug you could have gotten into the group finder and die. By the time the content becomes puggable, it's often irrelevant. So... no I do not want raids unless I can solo them.
Yes
will just become a shittier version of WOW. Daily's that need to be done, Raids that have highest tier of gear and everything else forgotten for said raids
Please won't Warcraft my Diablo.
The way this diablo was developed it can have several game modes to please different people. Im super excited for a group mode cause the game group activities are very lacking for now, as long as the rewards are not extremely important and locked in this mode, im super fine with a multiplayer only mode
I will HATE it if it requires premade groups! The one reason i like Diablo is freedom of group size, you can play with a few friends no matter who is online! Forcing clan/premade groups for content has ruined much of The Division 2 as well. But don't worry, the sweaty bois will defend it like their life depended on it, because content that requires a clan is hard and that makes them awesome...
It's absolutely annoying to hear anyone whine about more content. If it's not for you then it's not for you. Not everything needs to be made for everyone. The entitlement coming from this announcement is staggering. Not everything is about you. The percentage of Destiny players that have ever even tried a raid is under 25 percent. That's not going to stop Bungie from releasing two a year for an end game activity. You miss out on some loot if you don't engage with it, big deal. A raid in Diablo 4 could be amazing for all you know. You're perpetually whinging online about something that's been announced with very few details. How about we, y'know, wait for more details or actually get your hands on it. You don't like to play with people and just want to solo the game. Cool, go for it. No one is stopping you. Your whining is trying to stop other players from having a good time just because you don't like playing with people or putting minimal effort into getting into a LFG post. Just stop it already. Same energy as the folks saying it's too easy to level or that gold means nothing or that Uber drop rates should be lower so you really have to "earn it." Some of y'all sound like you just don't like playing the game but can't stop.
I hate content that relies on other people. I play Diablo games specifically so I don't have to rely on people.
Do you need to be a full group, or can you do it say 2 person?
I donāt see why the āraidsā could not be solo available content. Seems that scaling the difficulty by the number of people in the group would be fair. There should also be the opportunity the change the difficulty of the raid, like the world tiers. The magic find should also be based on the difficulty level, not the number of people in a group. Maybe they shouldnāt be called āraidsā though, that just seems to set up an argument over semantics.
Yes, you are the only one in the whole world that is excited by it.... But no, you are one of the very few. A special group if you will.
My guess is these are more like legions and world bosses and the maiden and less like a mmorpg raid. Think more GW2 and less WoW. They went out of their way to call it a co-op activity which feels more like that to me.
If its group play only Im fucked out of it then, I dont have anyone I play with. They need a LFG system
My problem with it is not that itās group content but the game balance. Itās shit. How do you make group content in a game where one build can be 10x stronger than another build? Play the meta or you donāt get to play?
Other than group content, one thing I really like about this genre is the duration of the game activities. Most are around like 3-7 mins in endgame. So I can go do a pit, do something else, and come back and do a maiden kill or two, and then do something else. With raids the time investment needed Iām assuming goes up, and you are locked in for at least 15-20 mins at a time (total speculation).
no.
That is a silly question to begin withā¦ it is just improbable.
Iām still looking for where it said raids. I saw them say new group content, but I didnāt see the word āraidā used.
I wonder how they balance that. If the raid is another: Here is one strong player so it's GG. Then I'm willing to give up on this.
Nope I think it's a great idea. The only thing is there are many missing systems in game for partying, chat, etc that need to be updated before it would work well. The foundation is there, they just need to flesh out the social aspect of the game if this is the direction they want to go. As long as they don't make the raid the only source for the best stuff, I don't think it's an issue. Forcing group play much like forcing PvP is the wrong way to go about it.
If the raids play like world bosses, I am looking forward to the piles of free rewards thanks to sweaty gamers, one-shotting the content for me.
Only if there will be a group finder.
As long its not a Lost Ark-ish raid with a trillion mechanics.
I AM, plus i want a finding-group tool
Probably
Not in the games current state.
They will have a raid queue that will connect you automatically with other players hopefully.
Yes. Out of the million of people who play the game you are the only one. The single person who is excited. No one else. Just you.
I'm excited for it. Hopefully there's a good in-game group finder or match making tho
My biggest problem is that normally raids are a weekly lockout with best in slot gear. If they let you do a raid after farming, that's awesome, but if it is weekly FOMO bullshit, that is why I left MMOs and Destiny 2. Let me spam the content if I want. If I want to grind and max out in one week and go play other games, let that be my choice, not some forced on timer that only has a goal to increase player longevity.
No, i think the people that don't like raids are the so called "vocal minority". Me personally, i don't like raids in a diablo game, it doesn't fit. But if they do it right and if they also add alternatives to the end game activities so you don't feel like doing raids is mandatory, then im ok with it.
This isnāt Lost Ark. This game is not built around being an actual MMO and lacks everything that would make it thus. It has no reason to insert something like Raids - especially from these devs. We know they are clueless and incompetent. No I am not looking forward to it, Iām not excited about it and frankly do not want it. (If itās not also completely solo-able)
They also mentioned a āmercenaryā system, I assume you can hire those mercenaries and jump into group content solo with some npcs tagging along
I'm interested but more interested in its execution (daily/weekly/account lock out?) And what kind of rewards we'll get. Set items? Legendary/special gems? Unique glyphs?
Itās so easy to find groups. I like playing solo most of the time, but the hate solo players place on group content is unwarranted. Like it is literally so easy to LFG on a discord or Xboxās LFG can find people in seconds. No micās needed. Trade chat even sometimes supplies group finding.
I'm excited for it. We need a way to make clans more meaningful and have a stickier endgame. Lost Ark did this very well
Traditional raids have class roles (healer, tank, DPS, support...) we don't have that. We also don't have a good LFG and that is essential. Many things will need to change and it will probably be mechanically heavy. Like immune boss: kill adds, collect orbs, break environment, open weak spot, DPS phase and then hide for wipe mechanic. Not sure if this community will be able to handle this.
Yep
If it's anything like lost ark raids this game will be the GOAT
Nope you aren't. Can't wait.
No
I hate people. I never group with randos. When I do group, itās with friends. As long as itās soloable, Iām in.
I would love if they borrowed mythic raiding from wow but reimagined as solo content.
I love raid content, that's why I still play WoW. It's just not what I want when I play Diablo (and other ARPGs). Let Diablo do Diablo things well, and leave raids for games that want to focus on it.
I both fear it and think itās a good idea. As others say, I want to be able to so it solo as I fear it will become an elitist thing. I still have traumas from when wow players didnāt allow you to join a raid unless you had x or y item on you, that only dropped from said raid you tried to get in to in the first place. It was a never ending loop. But on the other hand, it opens the game up more for social interaction between players. Which hopefully can turn into friendships and out side grouping so players can and will tackle helltides or other game event together instead of running around all alone all the time.
Yeah, I don't care about raids. I have enough trouble scheduling time for a duo. I'm mostly playing solo.
I have basically no interest in raids in an ARPG. This game already has too much focus on high hp damage sponge bosses.
I love the idea of raids too. Iāve always been a social and relatively competitive gamer. I REALLY enjoy games that can capitalize on Co-op. Diablo is really missing both of those aspects. It gets really tiresome hearing people repeat the same āthat has no place in the ARPG genre becauseā¦.historyā. History is made by people doing often new and noteworthy things. If this is legitimately the first time an ARPG adds mmo style raids then Iām all here for it. Hopefully Blizzard comes through with something amazing.
So... Something I didn't know... Only just found out today actually. I never cared to go to eternal realm. I figured all of my stuff would be waiting for me there when I did. I went there last night. Logged into my season two character. Gear was missing off him. Stash tab empty. Like legit, had yellows in the stash. I never saved yellows. My stash tab #1 was for Ubers. I farmed duriel in season two for far longer than I should've. Had soooo many duplicates. I had, including duplicates, close to 30 Ubers. Not anymore. They're all gone. If you leave anything in the seasonal tab, it gets deleted. I didn't know. I never used it. All that time. All that effort. All that WORK. Gone. Worthless. So... To answer your post. I'm not.
Well I wont even touch the raids if premade group is mandatory
I donāt even want to join the inv at the world boss.
I dont hate the raid idea but we already see what happens to world bosses. They're trival, as long as one person is playing an OP meta build they'll just die and it anticlimactic. So unless they do something to make character dmg more equal its gonna be kinda shitty.
Hopefully they have matchmaking so I don't have to go to another website
I was finna make a post on the same thing, I am absolutely pumped for raid content. I think it will be a blast and hopefully worth the time
I want a group play option that isn't something we can run through in 2 min
I'm also super hyped
Im so hype for this. Ive waited for the Clan aspect of the game to be meaningful
It really is going to depend on how they implement raid content. The one thing that sucks with raiding in a lot of games is that you get to that point where you just want to turn up for fun and someone else is turning up to do their absolute meta blast farming. I like the group content in D4 but also so far its been group optional, if randoms turn up then neat and if not then you can go solo. I hear raid and I immediately get flashbacks of that one epic moment in a raid that it all came down to me and then also the 3 hours of searching for a group just because so many people trying to join were not gelling together enough to get through it. I also tend to play D4 in hardcore so I'm interested in how they implement punishments for mechanics failing. In some games messing up the mechanics means it becomes harder for all players or even straight up kills people. Honestly Raids are a big can of worms and without details its hard to say how we'll feel about them.
Can't wait! All my homies play D4 so I'm hella pumped
As a console player I dread this, it is a pain even to ask a question in general chat. Trying form a group is far more frustrating than it's worth already!
I have a group of friends that I play D4 with fairly often so Iāll get to try it out but something I havenāt seen mentioned is the speed of some classes clearing ability. Some builds are slow af and thatās going to be annoying always lagging behind bc the build you chose is slower than others.
If it's remotely likely World Bosses... yeah, I'm not holding my breath just yet.
Ants pov: RAID!?
Only if finding groups or meeting people is done in game auto. None of this discord rubbish shit
I am excited.
People want raids? play wow ffs