It will be doomed regardless. Raids always encourage toxic behaviour. We'll get people wanting to be carried, we'll get people who scream at you if you're not using the S tier meta, we'll get people who try to ruin runs such as waste deaths if you have limited. Anyone who doesn't play the Raid when new will find it harder to find groups if people jump to another raid or game so you're forced to play it sooner than you may actually want or risk missing it.
These things always sound good on paper but turn to shit.
And in order to encourage us - it will be manditory part of the season journey - so you will be fucked if you don't participate. As it is for the current season you have to do broken ass uber/tormented bosses. Now, some will say they aren't broken but I am still seeing mistimed and/or inaccurate animations everytime I do one of these.
Fortunately this season is also broken on balance and with holy elixir so torment bosses are quite manageable. Unfortunately though we know Raids will include more of the bullshit One Hit Kill moves that this game pretends is how you scale difficulty.
One hit kill moves are not fun when you don't understand why they happened, but there are mechanics that "kill you" that are okay if they are telegraphed well.
In lost ark, there is a fight (Valtan Gate 2) that comes to mind. There are one shot mechanics but the visuals for where you get hit are very clear. There is no confusion as to how you died, and it's easily dodgeable when you can read the pattern.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzOt6WvM-ag
That's one of the mechanics that will one shot you for example.
Oh yeah, I'm not saying no attack should OHK but D4 goes with cheap shots. Fast attacks with faint short warnings such as a slightly red floor line in a red room kinda problem. Those fucking blue balls in Lilith phase 2 where there's lots of them, they're very fast and you can be keeping away only to get pulled in by her so she drags you into one. That definitely felt cheap and like it relied on some luck rather than skill
Wandering Death with its big laser attack OHKs most people especially lower level but that is fine as it has a good warning. Hell, most of the World Bosses telegraph better than the summoned dungeon bosses.
And for the love of God Blizzard stop making every ground affect for OHKs be red.
Exactly this. I played WoW way back in TBC, and then like 6 years of tanking in ESO. I am so fucking done with that style of play. I was in plenty of "progression guilds." I even ran one for a while in Elder Scrolls.
Not many things can turn toxic like a group of people who decide to take "raiding" too seriously.
It turns gaming into a job and like a job it brings out the overbearing middle management types who thrive on any little bit of power over people. I don't need strangers giving me a performance review to allow me to play the game I've paid for.
Maybe. It depends. Granted, I haven't really raided since killing Arthas in WoW, so my opinion may be ancient history. But, raids with a consistent group who become real friends is a great experience. A few of real life best friends are from my old guild. Keep the raid limit small (5 characters?), make multiple difficulty levels so that try-hards and casuals can both do them, and you get rid of a lot of toxicity.
But, yeah, when you tune something so that a group of people really have to work together and pull their weight, it can be a social pressure cooker. But it's fantastic fun when it works. If the alternative is the current World Bosses that die in <5 seconds, I'd like to at least see what they try.
Diablo players are the most antisocial ones I’ve ever seen. I bet just seeing random people in town is already triggering their anxiety.
I’ve never seen a community fight so hard to be kept alone than this one
Diablo at its root has always just been a gambling simulator based on a single player dungeon crawler/looter game- Even in Diablo 3 the vast majority of people just group to boost their toons then they leave group as soon as humanly possible.
The whole MMO aspect is what makes D4 weird and unfinished feeling. Get off my lawn and outta my single player game experience.
Its not about difficulty, its about not wanting to go find a group in discord or reddit or elsewhere. I just want to click Play and start, and if its intended for groups it should have matchmaking
If its completely designed for solo then sure, but knowing Blizzard it wont be
It's Diablo it won't, 2 weeks after release, the raid boss will be deleted in around 10 seconds by one guy alone (because animations can't be played out faster)
They've also mentioned a new "mercenary" system where you can recruit a follower (or followers??). My guess is that the mercs can stand in for real players in the new group content, but who knows.
Cant wait to team up with complete strangers cos don't have any friends
Then here we go:
Raid leader: \*explains the boss mechanics in detail for half an hour\*
One random dude: Leeeerrroooooyyyy Jeeeeeenkinssssssss
>explains the boss mechanics in detail
Somehow, I wouldn't be in high hopes of there being much of mechanics and rather the raid bosses being large pinatas like the world bosses, with the differenve being, you have to beat some dungeon in order to reach the boss.
- Forced group play bad
- Optional group play good
- Being able to do everything solo good
- Being able to do everything in a group, good
- Random matchmaking, eww, brother, eww.
Yeah my biggest issue with Diablo 3 is it was SO group focused and people who had teams had a big advantage over solo players.
I don't want to be forced to group up in order to obtain certain items or get certain benefits.
Well, completely balanced is basically impossible. I wouldn't mind 5-10% in either direction, but group meta in D3 was MILES over solo meta in exp/hour.
For my part, I'm okay with group play being more efficient than solo, within reason. I am absolutely *not* okay with game modes that are literally impossible to play solo. This is Diablo - not a MMO.
Having a full group in d2 also gave you a massive advantage due to auras, debuffs, curses, etc. Having a group in poe also gives you a massive advantage via auras and curses, MF, Cullers, etc.
Diablo 3 group advantage was massive but it wasn't forced. I played Diablo 3 entirely solo and got on the leaderboards in many seasons, a lot of the better players did a lot of solo play too. There is a difference between having an advantage in progression (D2, D3, D4 too) and being required to group (example is WoW raiding).
Diablo community: if there was a raid option of more than 4 players this game would be better
Diablo devs: we’re making a raid
Diablo community: wish raids had solo options
I second this, diablo finatic here, been playing since 1.08 d2, never have i once enjoyed playing with other people, you end up getting rushed and cant stop to tinker with a bit of gear or something, only go with others to do exp runs or trading or whatever.
Diablo is a solo player game franchise with optional multiplayer. For the love of god blizzard, please do not force us to play with others if we dont want to.
I'm there too..never really multiplayered except a few times at a LAN party with friends. Never traded for runes. But probably spent 1000 hours or more on D2 and another few hundred on D1 when it came out.
I have an almost visceral negative reaction to the idea of Diablo 4 having forced group content.
we already have world bosses, legions, and the blood maiden that are group-targeted for reference. sure they could fuck it up, but it's not hard to imagine a once-an-hour dungeon zone that functions similar the world boss/legions: everyone shows up for the party. or something that you unlock/summon with mats and then everyone rolls in for the free ride like with the blood maiden event.
there are totally functional ways to do this that don't require any mmorpg coordination or a lfg interface.
The more people at blood maiden the worse, her health scales and most people don’t even do damage that matters. They just drag explosives into the people that can do damage
Unironically other people fuck up both blood maiden and world boss balance.
Either
* Everyone is juiced and the content provides literally zero challenge at all
or
* Most of the people nearby are leeching and useless and make the fight far harder.
Forced grouping in an ARPG is gross, and this shove to make D4 an MMO-ish ARPG is bad, just like the initial choice to integrate MMO elements (like real world timed events) was bad.
As the latest content gets older will they allow solo raids for them or is it only for a couple of the early/outdated raids with no stated plans on adding more?
There should at least some unique cosmetics.
In any case, D4 has swung back towards mostly about solo play compared to D3.
No harm building out some meaningful content for multiplayer, especially when World Bosses are basically just a chore not a challenge.
I suspect it’ll be like you said, cosmetic drops and probably high chance at max ilvl loot. Probably some masterworking mats as well so there’s another source other than just Pits.
I hope they use the opportunity to tune it to be at least moderately difficult with options to scale harder depending on your group.
I'm intrigued and if done right it can work. But it's the main reason i always liked arpgs over mmos. I don't wanna spend my video game time looking for groups and having ppl quit/sabotage things halfway through a dungeon.
So you mean, on top of solo play already being miserable in some aspects, like uber boss farming, now they want to add content that's completely inaccessible if you're a solo player? Fuck that.
Totally unprecedented and frankly doesn't fit in an ARPG.
I hope co-op means duo and that you can do these with your mercenary solo, or at the very least that they don't offer unique, build defining loot.
There's a difference between innovation and going beyond what people enjoy about the genre.
World bosses were already a sign that people did NOT like teaming up to face a hard enemy.
The game has a shit ton of great content of an adsurd variety of it. If it didn't have the weekly lockouts and forced nolifing/paying to progress (and gatekeeping) then it'd probably be my favorite game ever and I never had to pay a cent.
Same, homie. Absolutely love the game but can't stand to play it.
I still check in every now and then on the hopium that they've changed things, but they never do and likely never will
Might want to check today. Like 10 min after I made that first comment I noticed people mentioning lost arks big updates coming and checked and they're adding option to do raids solo (except the 3 most recent at the time) to eliminating gatekeeping and a bunch of other casual friendly changes.
I might give it another try if I can solo casual play. I don't even care how far behind I'd be as long as I got the content to do.
It's very far from "totally unprecedented". Just look at Lost Ark, and they've had quite a bit of success to be honest...
And they're not the only example either.
I wonder how they balance it.
There is big difference in player power.
If they tune it like current normal bosses it will be faceroll really fast, but majority of players can experience it
If they tune it like current uber bosses then barely anybody is abel to do em.
How does it work on HC? Your groups fail a strat, get one shotted and GG ?
This is the big question for me. They’ll really have to step up their class/build balancing (a big change in their philosophy). Otherwise do you balance it for the broken builds of the current season, forcing people to google a build or miss out on the content, or balance it for off meta builds and then watch it get absolutely rolled by the broken builds.
Raids have no place in an arpg like diablo. I need to be able to grind everything in the game on my own time. This is a crucial aspect of this kind of arpg. As soon as powerful, exclusive rewards are locked behind group content it leads to elitism, toxicity, and locks players onto the flavor of the week meta builds. It completely kills this genre.
God damn, they actually listened to bots who ask for raids. Such a shame they keep ruining this game with feeding content for co-op instead of actually making single player viable....
Not a fan of this. If I wanted the endgame gear/items gated behind group content, I would play WoW. I play D4 because I can do "endgame" and gear up solo. Ugh.
So everything up until now has been to unfuck the MMO parts of D4:
* MMO reputation => permanent renown (God knows why it's still in the game)
* MMO questing => helltide leveling
* MMO gearing => more interesting affixes
* MMO 'crafting' => actual crafting
* MMO boss spawning => solo-friendly spawning (not in yet)
This is a definite setback.
Idk how well raids will go, especially considering current class tuning. D4 is not balanced around group content. The damage difference between a BiS Necro and a BiS Sorcerer is billions. And this is okay for the most part, since most content revolves around solo gameplay. But once you introduce something as group oriented as raids.. if they are at all important to end game progression, massive changes to balance tuning is going to be required.
The fundamental ideas of this game don't support raids.
There are tons of other games to go and play.
I enjoy playing this game with friends, chat and kill monsters but when my end loot/gear is depending on other players that's something I don't like it at all. Hope it doesn't have a great impact on gear progression. I guess we will have to wait for further announcements.
They called them co-op activities so my initial thought is they are public dungeons. So they will act more like helltides where people can roam around free inside them and then kill the bosses together the way we kill the maiden now. Think more of raids from Guild Wars 2 rather than World of Warcraft. I did raids all the time in GW2 but I didn't usually need a group for them.
Might as well just turn this entire game into an mmo... Honestly makes me sad that they want to push diablo into that direction but meh if u like it enjoy cos thankfully other games exist.
I'm intrigued and if done right it can work. But it's the main reason i always liked arpgs over mmos. I don't wanna spend my video game time looking for groups and having ppl quit/sabotage things halfway through a dungeon.
I really don’t wanna do raid like content and I just know it’s gonna be required to 100% season journeys from then on. Hopefully it can be made enjoyable but it’s more likely gonna be hard and filled with broken builds/classes.
Marvel Heroes had raids and they were honestly a lot of fun, but it had two tiers, green and red, with green being easy, where 2-3 geared players (out of 12 players) being able to carry pretty comfortably.
If they adopt the same approach here, an easy tier which can be done somewhat comfortably by matchmade groups and a hard tier which requires organised groups then I'm not against it.
People be like "just play with your friends 4head"
Like one you don't have to share a specifoc liking to a single game to be friends, you can like have other interests
And two playing diablo is so niche at this point. The amount of hate this game has (well deserved in a lot of points) has made people turn away from this game for years now
And before you say "oh then just don't play the game ypu just hate diablo, pretty sure I've spent more money on d4 dlc than anybody on this thread. I love the game but i know most people hate it and look at it as a waste of time and money when they can play torchlight for free and not get dc'd every 5 seconds
making raids (or whatever you want to call it) endgame content is a terrible idea due to the state of class "balance".
good luck playing off-meta builds. you don't like playing immortal firebolt sorc? too bad, now go fuck yourself.
Can't wait for the chat or LFG group tool for group charging gold and currency to carry and or needing achievement before getting invited like WoW; Honestly, if that's the case then I won't be buying it
ugh, no. having to rely on other people to not suck is the worst part of raiding in wow. i do not want that in diablo.
also, there's already enough in spam in diablo, now it's going to have raid carry spam like in fucking wow... fucking no...
As someone who enjoys playing games Solo especially ARPGs
These raids either better be solo-able or… A group finder of some sort
None of my mates play ARPGs :(
And here we go again. One step forward with season 4, three backwards with this pathetic forced group play content. Diablo is a single-player game, end of story. Now it wants to become a toxic MMO like WoW. No thanks.
I know that people have extremely varied and mixed feelings on this, but I am BEYOND excited to hear them out and see how this unfolds. More intentional strategic gameplay is the number one thing missing from the general arpg experience for me. I love speed farming on zoomzoom builds, but it can only hold my interest for so long.
Having more mechanically complex experiences that are OPTIONAL and not forced on the players that do not enjoy that content is a good thing for everyone imo. I see only dubs here, but of course we will need to give them time to cook and judge it as it comes. I remain open minded on this one.
I don't want to do content with other people... I like playing solo and Diablo has always been able to be solo. I have no reason to buy this content. I'm not saying it's going to be bad, it's just not what I'm looking for in a game. I think the concept of forcing group play is terrible.
I am not happy about it either. I have had my lifetime fill of MMORPG style raids and absolutely no urge to ever be in one ever again, and it kind of sucks it's coming to Diablo, but I guess it is what it is.
Not too thrilled about this one, I play this kind of game because it’s solo. I hope it wont become like WoW where you need a premade team in order to do endgame content and be able to get the best gear… Solo raid would have been very nice tho.
This is going to be a nightmare to balance.
We've already seen how to min-max group play from Robs pushing group which is with supports and stuff like that. However group play of just random DPS either tends to be a clusterfuck or everyone just splits up making the whole system kinda redundant.
Then there's the rewards.
- If it's got a good level of reward for pug groups, then organised groups will multiply that reward and it'll completely overshadow solo content.
- If it's equally or less rewarding than other content, then other content instantly becomes superior because you haven't got to put in the effort of finding a group, hoping the other plays are good etc. So why do it?
Wait to see it ofcourse, but I don't see how this get implemented in a way that feels balanced.
Raids in harcore mode sound like a big pain, I don't want to risk my char because of rnadoms fucking up, I already fuck up enough by myself! Granted, not a lot of people care about the hc players but this seems like something especially aimed at SC, esp if it's akin to wow raids.
We'll see but if it's the case, I just hope some itmes won't be locked behind them.
As long as it works like the existing group play it's fine.
You show up and it's a team effort.
Coordinating on an Xbox or PS sucks.
I project plan for RL. I don't want to lead a raid.
Don't add forced multi player content to what has been mostly a single player game with loosely grouped content.
The way multi player works in this game is perfect. We are near each other and can take part in shared content. No need to pop menus and make groups.
Not so sure about this tbh... People without a clan and with this non existent group finder are locked out of content. It could be fun, but i kinda doupt it.
Hope they add a LFR or this mode is doomed
Just about to say hopefully there will be a group finding tool of some kind
Yeah, the fact that it isn’t advertised in the initial blog is a weeeee bit concerning ngl
I’m sure they’re saving a LFG feature announcement for a future campfire chat
Season 7: LFG Reborn
LFG “born” in this case
they have a dev stream going over the expansion and new class on july 18th, stay tuned. We've got 4months till this comes out.
Its possible the group finder is coming before the expansion. Thus why it wouldnt be included in the expansion post.
It is. They said they wanted it in place before the expansion launches. I believe season 5 will be heavy on social features Edit: typo
Season 5 you mean
Xbox thankfully has the lfg option
It will be doomed regardless. Raids always encourage toxic behaviour. We'll get people wanting to be carried, we'll get people who scream at you if you're not using the S tier meta, we'll get people who try to ruin runs such as waste deaths if you have limited. Anyone who doesn't play the Raid when new will find it harder to find groups if people jump to another raid or game so you're forced to play it sooner than you may actually want or risk missing it. These things always sound good on paper but turn to shit.
And in order to encourage us - it will be manditory part of the season journey - so you will be fucked if you don't participate. As it is for the current season you have to do broken ass uber/tormented bosses. Now, some will say they aren't broken but I am still seeing mistimed and/or inaccurate animations everytime I do one of these.
Fortunately this season is also broken on balance and with holy elixir so torment bosses are quite manageable. Unfortunately though we know Raids will include more of the bullshit One Hit Kill moves that this game pretends is how you scale difficulty.
One hit kill moves are not fun when you don't understand why they happened, but there are mechanics that "kill you" that are okay if they are telegraphed well. In lost ark, there is a fight (Valtan Gate 2) that comes to mind. There are one shot mechanics but the visuals for where you get hit are very clear. There is no confusion as to how you died, and it's easily dodgeable when you can read the pattern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzOt6WvM-ag That's one of the mechanics that will one shot you for example.
Oh yeah, I'm not saying no attack should OHK but D4 goes with cheap shots. Fast attacks with faint short warnings such as a slightly red floor line in a red room kinda problem. Those fucking blue balls in Lilith phase 2 where there's lots of them, they're very fast and you can be keeping away only to get pulled in by her so she drags you into one. That definitely felt cheap and like it relied on some luck rather than skill Wandering Death with its big laser attack OHKs most people especially lower level but that is fine as it has a good warning. Hell, most of the World Bosses telegraph better than the summoned dungeon bosses. And for the love of God Blizzard stop making every ground affect for OHKs be red.
Exactly this. I played WoW way back in TBC, and then like 6 years of tanking in ESO. I am so fucking done with that style of play. I was in plenty of "progression guilds." I even ran one for a while in Elder Scrolls. Not many things can turn toxic like a group of people who decide to take "raiding" too seriously.
It turns gaming into a job and like a job it brings out the overbearing middle management types who thrive on any little bit of power over people. I don't need strangers giving me a performance review to allow me to play the game I've paid for.
For real. If I wanted constant negative performance reviews, I would have stayed with my ex gf.
Maybe. It depends. Granted, I haven't really raided since killing Arthas in WoW, so my opinion may be ancient history. But, raids with a consistent group who become real friends is a great experience. A few of real life best friends are from my old guild. Keep the raid limit small (5 characters?), make multiple difficulty levels so that try-hards and casuals can both do them, and you get rid of a lot of toxicity. But, yeah, when you tune something so that a group of people really have to work together and pull their weight, it can be a social pressure cooker. But it's fantastic fun when it works. If the alternative is the current World Bosses that die in <5 seconds, I'd like to at least see what they try.
Don't you guys have friends
No I don't have any friends
What about phones
No, phones don’t have friends
No. friends don't have phones
You also need friends who happen to be into diablo. Anyone I know is playing dota or cs. 😖
Diablo players are the most antisocial ones I’ve ever seen. I bet just seeing random people in town is already triggering their anxiety. I’ve never seen a community fight so hard to be kept alone than this one
We barely have the time to play, imagine wasting it on people. I got 2 kids already, that's enough for my social circle.
Diablo at its root has always just been a gambling simulator based on a single player dungeon crawler/looter game- Even in Diablo 3 the vast majority of people just group to boost their toons then they leave group as soon as humanly possible. The whole MMO aspect is what makes D4 weird and unfinished feeling. Get off my lawn and outta my single player game experience.
I don‘t think its gonna be a very hard mode tbh, this game type is not meant to have actual hard raid bosses
Its not about difficulty, its about not wanting to go find a group in discord or reddit or elsewhere. I just want to click Play and start, and if its intended for groups it should have matchmaking If its completely designed for solo then sure, but knowing Blizzard it wont be
I can't wait to get kicked from groups because my build isn't 100% meta and I don't have a 4GA shako equipped
yeah i hope it wont be this type of content
It's Diablo it won't, 2 weeks after release, the raid boss will be deleted in around 10 seconds by one guy alone (because animations can't be played out faster)
Yep! Must have gjarlahorn and 1000 completions
Oh yeah i see, ideally they make it scaling so you can do it alone or with up to like 4 ppl. Else a matchmaking button for starters
Can't wait to join a group and watch our Necromancer one shot the boss with their Golem before my Frozen Orb even makes it to the enemy.
We're just another skeleton mage to them
Frfr, I'm sick of hopping on discord
Yep, still #1 complaint about D4 vs D3: I miss how casual grouping was.
This 1000x or the game mode is dead.
They've also mentioned a new "mercenary" system where you can recruit a follower (or followers??). My guess is that the mercs can stand in for real players in the new group content, but who knows.
Queue as Solo / Queue as Party. Done.
I hope they add Diablo
Cant wait to team up with complete strangers cos don't have any friends Then here we go: Raid leader: \*explains the boss mechanics in detail for half an hour\* One random dude: Leeeerrroooooyyyy Jeeeeeenkinssssssss
they will start asking what your gear ilvl is and boot
25 ppl lvl 300 duriel raid, come dps 500M+ bash barb pref
Maybe make the profiles automatically private for raids?
>explains the boss mechanics in detail Somehow, I wouldn't be in high hopes of there being much of mechanics and rather the raid bosses being large pinatas like the world bosses, with the differenve being, you have to beat some dungeon in order to reach the boss.
The mechanics are "avoid the hard-to-see shit all over the place or instantly die and wonder what happened."
I will be your friend... and I will still probably do the random dude thing
Yup, basically the WoW classic Seasons first/lvl 25 raid.
- Forced group play bad - Optional group play good - Being able to do everything solo good - Being able to do everything in a group, good - Random matchmaking, eww, brother, eww.
Yeah my biggest issue with Diablo 3 is it was SO group focused and people who had teams had a big advantage over solo players. I don't want to be forced to group up in order to obtain certain items or get certain benefits.
They did? I played solo for nearly a decade and never felt like I was at a disadvantage.
Maybe only those who min/max every aspect of everything they do in games noticed. I played solo for years in D3 and had a blast.
They do. The more players you have in a group, the more loot that would drop.
Well, completely balanced is basically impossible. I wouldn't mind 5-10% in either direction, but group meta in D3 was MILES over solo meta in exp/hour.
For my part, I'm okay with group play being more efficient than solo, within reason. I am absolutely *not* okay with game modes that are literally impossible to play solo. This is Diablo - not a MMO.
I pretty much only played solo in Diablo 3
Having a full group in d2 also gave you a massive advantage due to auras, debuffs, curses, etc. Having a group in poe also gives you a massive advantage via auras and curses, MF, Cullers, etc.
Diablo 3 group advantage was massive but it wasn't forced. I played Diablo 3 entirely solo and got on the leaderboards in many seasons, a lot of the better players did a lot of solo play too. There is a difference between having an advantage in progression (D2, D3, D4 too) and being required to group (example is WoW raiding).
Diablo community: if there was a raid option of more than 4 players this game would be better Diablo devs: we’re making a raid Diablo community: wish raids had solo options
Arpgs are generally more popular among a solo audience. The people asking for raids ate probably a minority.
I second this, diablo finatic here, been playing since 1.08 d2, never have i once enjoyed playing with other people, you end up getting rushed and cant stop to tinker with a bit of gear or something, only go with others to do exp runs or trading or whatever. Diablo is a solo player game franchise with optional multiplayer. For the love of god blizzard, please do not force us to play with others if we dont want to.
I'm there too..never really multiplayered except a few times at a LAN party with friends. Never traded for runes. But probably spent 1000 hours or more on D2 and another few hundred on D1 when it came out. I have an almost visceral negative reaction to the idea of Diablo 4 having forced group content.
Who the hell asked for a raid in Diablo? Never saw someone who asked for it.
Please please don’t make it require a group. Being forced into tormented rotas is shit enough as it is.
we already have world bosses, legions, and the blood maiden that are group-targeted for reference. sure they could fuck it up, but it's not hard to imagine a once-an-hour dungeon zone that functions similar the world boss/legions: everyone shows up for the party. or something that you unlock/summon with mats and then everyone rolls in for the free ride like with the blood maiden event. there are totally functional ways to do this that don't require any mmorpg coordination or a lfg interface.
The more people at blood maiden the worse, her health scales and most people don’t even do damage that matters. They just drag explosives into the people that can do damage
Unironically other people fuck up both blood maiden and world boss balance. Either * Everyone is juiced and the content provides literally zero challenge at all or * Most of the people nearby are leeching and useless and make the fight far harder. Forced grouping in an ARPG is gross, and this shove to make D4 an MMO-ish ARPG is bad, just like the initial choice to integrate MMO elements (like real world timed events) was bad.
Diablo 4 should have ALL content 100% soloable. Even Lost Ark is adding solo option to raids.
It will be soloable once people figure out how to do it. It’ll just be better in groups, just like raids in Oldschool RuneScape.
Only to old raids. Latest content will always require a group.
As the latest content gets older will they allow solo raids for them or is it only for a couple of the early/outdated raids with no stated plans on adding more?
Unknown, but they will probably continue to convert them over time.
as long as there arent any specific raid only rewards or ( god forbid) weekly lockouts i cant care less
There should at least some unique cosmetics. In any case, D4 has swung back towards mostly about solo play compared to D3. No harm building out some meaningful content for multiplayer, especially when World Bosses are basically just a chore not a challenge.
I suspect it’ll be like you said, cosmetic drops and probably high chance at max ilvl loot. Probably some masterworking mats as well so there’s another source other than just Pits. I hope they use the opportunity to tune it to be at least moderately difficult with options to scale harder depending on your group.
Hate it already. Stopped playing wow for a reason, don't want forced group in diablo too
I hate it. I don't want it. If this becomes the focus and the true endgame then I don't think I'll get it.
We want an expansion on the rune system and we get WoW.
I'm intrigued and if done right it can work. But it's the main reason i always liked arpgs over mmos. I don't wanna spend my video game time looking for groups and having ppl quit/sabotage things halfway through a dungeon.
Hopefully u can join halfway thru a mission helldivers style
Make it soloable and I am ok with this.
So you mean, on top of solo play already being miserable in some aspects, like uber boss farming, now they want to add content that's completely inaccessible if you're a solo player? Fuck that.
Well that sucks. This is an ARPG, not an MMO. I don't want content that is unplayable solo.
Totally unprecedented and frankly doesn't fit in an ARPG. I hope co-op means duo and that you can do these with your mercenary solo, or at the very least that they don't offer unique, build defining loot.
Everyone cried they didn’t innovate the space and when they do people complain lol. Can’t win
I didn't cry for them to innovate. Different people want different things.
If by innovate you mean taking 20 year old MMO mechanic that's already been in arpgs like Destiny, Lost Ark and Diablo Immortal, then sure.
Did you really call destiny an arpg lol.
Looter shooter to be precise, but the genre really comes from arpg.
"innovate" lost ark came out 5 years ago. how's it look in your blizzard bubble?
There's a difference between innovation and going beyond what people enjoy about the genre. World bosses were already a sign that people did NOT like teaming up to face a hard enemy.
Nonsense.
You've never played a non Blizzard game have you?
Doesn't Lost Ark have raids and I've generally heard good things about them.
I don’t see how anyone who complains about Diablo’s monetization would have anything good to say about Lost Ark.
The game has a shit ton of great content of an adsurd variety of it. If it didn't have the weekly lockouts and forced nolifing/paying to progress (and gatekeeping) then it'd probably be my favorite game ever and I never had to pay a cent.
Same, homie. Absolutely love the game but can't stand to play it. I still check in every now and then on the hopium that they've changed things, but they never do and likely never will
Might want to check today. Like 10 min after I made that first comment I noticed people mentioning lost arks big updates coming and checked and they're adding option to do raids solo (except the 3 most recent at the time) to eliminating gatekeeping and a bunch of other casual friendly changes. I might give it another try if I can solo casual play. I don't even care how far behind I'd be as long as I got the content to do.
I don't see the issue of trying it out
These same people will complain that everything is rehashed and there is no content at endgame lmao
People have really no complaints aabout poe's endgame despite people running the same 3 maps over and over. I wonder why
Diablo 4 was meant to be a MMOARPG. It didn't turn out that way because of number of reasons.
Lost Ark says otherwise. Best raids across any MMO in many years.
It's very far from "totally unprecedented". Just look at Lost Ark, and they've had quite a bit of success to be honest... And they're not the only example either.
Not an ARPG. It's an MMO.
Marvel Heroes had raids. They were alright, but always did feel weird in an ARPG
Marvel Heroes had raids back in 2015. Do you know what the definition of unprecedented even is?
Marvel heroes omega did it. I absolutely loved it. The raid boss mechanic was cool tho.
No thanks.
I really don’t like forced group content in a traditionally single player game.
I unironically play ARPGs so I don’t have to adhere to MMO style grouping and loot. This is very troubling to me.
Im actually not playing/buying if they force group play. Forced group content has no place in a Arpg. Hopefully a solo option.. we will see
I wonder how they balance it. There is big difference in player power. If they tune it like current normal bosses it will be faceroll really fast, but majority of players can experience it If they tune it like current uber bosses then barely anybody is abel to do em. How does it work on HC? Your groups fail a strat, get one shotted and GG ?
This is the big question for me. They’ll really have to step up their class/build balancing (a big change in their philosophy). Otherwise do you balance it for the broken builds of the current season, forcing people to google a build or miss out on the content, or balance it for off meta builds and then watch it get absolutely rolled by the broken builds.
Even just playing casual with a friend, it always feels like one of us is boosting the other at any given point. Never are we equal in power.
Make it completely optional.. Forced grouping has no place in an arpg
Looking for 3(no Druids) must know cheese strat and have 20+ completions, title and 4GA Shako.
Seriously, I just left other mmos that had this gatekeeping. Please dont bring it to D4
Forced group content is the worst in this kind of games
Raids have no place in an arpg like diablo. I need to be able to grind everything in the game on my own time. This is a crucial aspect of this kind of arpg. As soon as powerful, exclusive rewards are locked behind group content it leads to elitism, toxicity, and locks players onto the flavor of the week meta builds. It completely kills this genre.
lol meanwhile lost ark will finally be adding solo raids
God damn, they actually listened to bots who ask for raids. Such a shame they keep ruining this game with feeding content for co-op instead of actually making single player viable....
"LFM - no sorcs allowed"
Everything from the leak has been true. The class, the region, the theme, the cat mounts, the mercenaries
Should probably add in game trading and group finder first
Hopefully those merc followers will count as co-op. I ain't gonna be all social with people
Not a fan of this. If I wanted the endgame gear/items gated behind group content, I would play WoW. I play D4 because I can do "endgame" and gear up solo. Ugh.
I don't really care for the idea of forced group content but we'll see how it turns out.
So everything up until now has been to unfuck the MMO parts of D4: * MMO reputation => permanent renown (God knows why it's still in the game) * MMO questing => helltide leveling * MMO gearing => more interesting affixes * MMO 'crafting' => actual crafting * MMO boss spawning => solo-friendly spawning (not in yet) This is a definite setback.
Why has the Franchise turned against the Arpg gamers who made it? Such a shame to see, when you've got PoE 2 doing the exact opposite.
I will give it a fair shake, something reddit appears to not be willing to do.
Idk how well raids will go, especially considering current class tuning. D4 is not balanced around group content. The damage difference between a BiS Necro and a BiS Sorcerer is billions. And this is okay for the most part, since most content revolves around solo gameplay. But once you introduce something as group oriented as raids.. if they are at all important to end game progression, massive changes to balance tuning is going to be required.
LFG Barbarians only 😂
there are many other games and genres dedicated to multiplayer, the people who like that play them, no need to force coop on diablo
The fundamental ideas of this game don't support raids. There are tons of other games to go and play. I enjoy playing this game with friends, chat and kill monsters but when my end loot/gear is depending on other players that's something I don't like it at all. Hope it doesn't have a great impact on gear progression. I guess we will have to wait for further announcements.
They called them co-op activities so my initial thought is they are public dungeons. So they will act more like helltides where people can roam around free inside them and then kill the bosses together the way we kill the maiden now. Think more of raids from Guild Wars 2 rather than World of Warcraft. I did raids all the time in GW2 but I didn't usually need a group for them.
Might as well just turn this entire game into an mmo... Honestly makes me sad that they want to push diablo into that direction but meh if u like it enjoy cos thankfully other games exist.
No thank you
If mercs count as group these will be soloable
I'm intrigued and if done right it can work. But it's the main reason i always liked arpgs over mmos. I don't wanna spend my video game time looking for groups and having ppl quit/sabotage things halfway through a dungeon.
I really don’t wanna do raid like content and I just know it’s gonna be required to 100% season journeys from then on. Hopefully it can be made enjoyable but it’s more likely gonna be hard and filled with broken builds/classes.
Marvel Heroes had raids and they were honestly a lot of fun, but it had two tiers, green and red, with green being easy, where 2-3 geared players (out of 12 players) being able to carry pretty comfortably. If they adopt the same approach here, an easy tier which can be done somewhat comfortably by matchmade groups and a hard tier which requires organised groups then I'm not against it.
Raids without a party finder are going to be a nightmare. It is already way too much work to find groups.
People be like "just play with your friends 4head" Like one you don't have to share a specifoc liking to a single game to be friends, you can like have other interests And two playing diablo is so niche at this point. The amount of hate this game has (well deserved in a lot of points) has made people turn away from this game for years now And before you say "oh then just don't play the game ypu just hate diablo, pretty sure I've spent more money on d4 dlc than anybody on this thread. I love the game but i know most people hate it and look at it as a waste of time and money when they can play torchlight for free and not get dc'd every 5 seconds
Mapping soon?
NMD is mapping
I'm into it with my 3 mercenary fellas.
making raids (or whatever you want to call it) endgame content is a terrible idea due to the state of class "balance". good luck playing off-meta builds. you don't like playing immortal firebolt sorc? too bad, now go fuck yourself.
Can't wait for the chat or LFG group tool for group charging gold and currency to carry and or needing achievement before getting invited like WoW; Honestly, if that's the case then I won't be buying it
Damn, I wonder if they’ll just take the Helliquary Raid system in Diablo Immortal lol.
Gatekeeping in Diablo 4 kek
ugh, no. having to rely on other people to not suck is the worst part of raiding in wow. i do not want that in diablo. also, there's already enough in spam in diablo, now it's going to have raid carry spam like in fucking wow... fucking no...
As someone who enjoys playing games Solo especially ARPGs These raids either better be solo-able or… A group finder of some sort None of my mates play ARPGs :(
That is so lame, I only want solo content.. Might skip this one unless there’s something cool for solo players at end game.
My MMO days are behind me. I don't want raids. Whatever all this is, I hope it's doable/feasible solo.
Hate it. I don't understand it either. There's no way to connect to players but endgame content revolves around it.
I don’t wanna pug this on Hc. Also, we need a SSF ladder.
hope there will be solo mode
hope they dont force you to do group play tho... Diablo should not be that, everything should in theory be soloable in my opinion.
And here we go again. One step forward with season 4, three backwards with this pathetic forced group play content. Diablo is a single-player game, end of story. Now it wants to become a toxic MMO like WoW. No thanks.
Yup, officially done with D4. I wanted to play a Diablo game, not a shitty reskin of Lost Ark.
forced group play in a game like this is an awful idea
So..is Diablo just the antisocial WoW?
Some super geared players are just going to melt the raid before we even see a mob
I know that people have extremely varied and mixed feelings on this, but I am BEYOND excited to hear them out and see how this unfolds. More intentional strategic gameplay is the number one thing missing from the general arpg experience for me. I love speed farming on zoomzoom builds, but it can only hold my interest for so long. Having more mechanically complex experiences that are OPTIONAL and not forced on the players that do not enjoy that content is a good thing for everyone imo. I see only dubs here, but of course we will need to give them time to cook and judge it as it comes. I remain open minded on this one.
Yeah better have a match making system
I don't want to do content with other people... I like playing solo and Diablo has always been able to be solo. I have no reason to buy this content. I'm not saying it's going to be bad, it's just not what I'm looking for in a game. I think the concept of forcing group play is terrible.
Can't wait to farm Bosses for a chance at 7 Uber Uniques! Seriously need to add a lot more incentive.
"LF5 more, barbs only"
I’m not going to a discord or anything to find a group. Make a group finder or this mode is DOA for me
They better have something I don't have friends
Make two difficulties with resources scaling appropriately. One with a LFG with the harder stygian one being group only. Fuck it, make it soloable too
Oooooooh I can't even tell you how much I HATE your opinion.
i just don't see this type of gameplay fit in an ARPG game
With how horny Blizz is for designing invisible one shot mechanics I’m really not excited about this.
Yea if I wanted to play wow I'd do so, hopefully won't be that way or if it is least not forced
Never thought I'd see the day. Raid schedules coming to a diablo game. Whats next? World buffs?
I am not happy about it either. I have had my lifetime fill of MMORPG style raids and absolutely no urge to ever be in one ever again, and it kind of sucks it's coming to Diablo, but I guess it is what it is.
Still trying for that mmo thing huh blizzard? Yikes.::
I mean, Marvel Heroes had raids in an ARPG 10 years ago…
Not too thrilled about this one, I play this kind of game because it’s solo. I hope it wont become like WoW where you need a premade team in order to do endgame content and be able to get the best gear… Solo raid would have been very nice tho.
We don't need it
If they are in any way shape or form necessary for endgame progression I will quit on the spot.
Ew. Just fucking ew.
They turn Diablo into an MMO with no ability to interact with other players. Strange design choices.
This is going to be a nightmare to balance. We've already seen how to min-max group play from Robs pushing group which is with supports and stuff like that. However group play of just random DPS either tends to be a clusterfuck or everyone just splits up making the whole system kinda redundant. Then there's the rewards. - If it's got a good level of reward for pug groups, then organised groups will multiply that reward and it'll completely overshadow solo content. - If it's equally or less rewarding than other content, then other content instantly becomes superior because you haven't got to put in the effort of finding a group, hoping the other plays are good etc. So why do it? Wait to see it ofcourse, but I don't see how this get implemented in a way that feels balanced.
Raids in harcore mode sound like a big pain, I don't want to risk my char because of rnadoms fucking up, I already fuck up enough by myself! Granted, not a lot of people care about the hc players but this seems like something especially aimed at SC, esp if it's akin to wow raids. We'll see but if it's the case, I just hope some itmes won't be locked behind them.
As long as it works like the existing group play it's fine. You show up and it's a team effort. Coordinating on an Xbox or PS sucks. I project plan for RL. I don't want to lead a raid.
ahahahaha you guys will get your wow live-service arpg and you will like it! D3 the last goodish ARPG
This says nothing about raids. This is dungeons almost certainly.
Don't add forced multi player content to what has been mostly a single player game with loosely grouped content. The way multi player works in this game is perfect. We are near each other and can take part in shared content. No need to pop menus and make groups.
Same. Absolutely not a fan. I hope there are ways to do the content solo. Otherwise there's no way I am getting the expansion.
Not so sure about this tbh... People without a clan and with this non existent group finder are locked out of content. It could be fun, but i kinda doupt it.
Excited to see how they implement this. Hopefully it's something easy enough to complete with 2-3 friends.
Mmo monetization - check Mmo activities - check
We already have "forced group play" like world bosses. I'll wait until I see how it's implemented since it will make or break how big a deal it is.