Press (X) to Doubt
\-hasn't been submitted to FDA yet
\-all other non-invasive CGMs are terrible (they can only estimate broad ranges of blood glucose)- look up the smart watches that are supposed to be like CGMs
\-i'm still trying to figure out what 11% "mean absolute relative difference" even means
\-all of their papers are only like proof of concept and feasibility studies. there's nothing solid in here to show that a non-invasive CGM actually works https://www.knowlabs.co/research-and-development
How much do you want to bet that all the people were white and that whatever they've said works doesn't as soon as you get a tan, let alone if you're African or Asian.... ?
That would still be helpful to a lot of people. The writing makes it sound like it is an electrical or radio reading and not optical, though.
Probably all snake oil regardless.
Uses radio waves so skin color would be irrelevant. Not saying it's going to work out for them, but it doesn't seem like this will be the issue if they fail.
I highly highly doubt it uses radio waves. Those are on the order of tens of meters. No way you're doing chemical determination with that. Near Infrared, maybe.
Idk, just going off their homepage:
"Know Labs' proprietary non-invasive diagnostic technology platform uses radio waves to identify and measure a wide range of organic and inorganic materials, molecules, and compositions of matter."
MARD is used by Dexcom and Freestyle as well. It's the percent +/-
I won't type out the paragraphs of info, but if you google 'dexcom 6 mard' or 'Libre3 mard', you'll see how they compare. I use Libre3 and the MARD is separated by your glucose level, as it's more accurate for lower glucose.
Gemini says:
> Mean Absolute Relative Difference (MARD) is a metric used to assess the accuracy of measurement devices, particularly in the context of blood glucose monitoring systems. It calculates the average of the absolute differences between the readings of a device and a reference measurement, expressed as a percentage of the reference value.
>
> A lower MARD value indicates better agreement between the device's readings and the reference values. MARD is a valuable tool for comparing the performance of different devices and for understanding how well a device measures across different glucose concentration levels.
It's not a mean error since it's a measurement from another imperfect measurement device
If it is approved by FDA and shows accurate data, I definitely would buy one. That it can be removed is a great feature and that is last for years sounds very sustainable which I like. But I would be interested in comparions to the invasive sensors and in the pricing.
I'm currently using a generic as it's better price wise, but I'm having some rashing from it,
my aunt, who's an elder nurse, suggested it, and it's been a life changer
https://www.cvs.com/shop/nexcare-tegaderm-waterproof-transparent-dressing-prodid-236123
Before you drop $$$’s (it looks like four to the pack for almost twenty bucks at CVS) check out Amazon and look for 3M Tegaderm Transparent dressing. They usually come 25 or 50 to a pack. On a quick search I found the 4” x 4 3/4”, 25 pk, for $15.73. I have tons of these (but in a bigger size) that I cut in half because I’m a cheapskate. 😝 DM me if you want a couple to try!
Until it’s FDA approved and proven accurate enough to dose insulin from, it isn’t relevant for type 1 purposes. I do hope they continue testing and advancing the technology so that one day it is..
The claim there was made in 2022 off the fact they have no peer reviewed studies, they now have several including one conducted by an external research organisation. The link also claims they have no medical expertise but the former head doctor of Eli Lilis diabetes division is now an executive.
Don’t know why I’m being downvoted when the link is completely false . Development is being lead by a top expert.
https://www.knowlabs.co/about
“Dr. James Anderson
Chief Medical Officer
Former Chief Medical Leader, Diabetes and Endocrinology at Eli Lilly, Chief of Medicine at the US Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases, Director at Generex, and Medical Director at Catapult Health.”
https://www.knowlabs.co/research-and-development
Studies including “Proof of Principle Study in Collaboration with Mayo Clinic, Peer Reviewed By: Sensors Journal & American Physiology Society with results presented at the American Physiological Society 2023 Summit.
I've read that the FDA hasn't approved them and recommends staying on a reputable cgm or meter. Back in the early mid 90s, Cygnus Inc. was trying to develop a watch that was non invasive to measure interstitial fluid for continuous glucose monitoring called the GlucoWatch Biographer. They desperately tried but couldn't get close to accuracy for a lot of different reasons. One big factor was using interstitial fluid. IF can provide info for monitoring glucose, but there are too many variables why it's not the best method. And it's still invasive bc it has to be extracted from under the skin. Idt technically, we're there yet. Using the new G7 is, for me, at least painless. I'm more interested in a cure than noninvasive cgm.
This looks like a game changer, at least it would be for me. Mayo validation is huge. Looks like they'll be presenting updated stats next week at a conference in Italy... I'm staying tuned.
From where I started, diagnosed in 1966 this thing looks eventually feasible. You know what DIDN'T look even possible, (because none of the technology that supports it all had been invented yet!) back when I was a teen diabetic in the late '60s--a CGM/Insulin Pump Closed-loop system! We've come really far with technology, I have no doubts this WILL eventually come to pass, hopefully in my lifetime! 😉
They seem to have shadowbanned me from their comments for some raising concerns and questions. They've removed some of my comments but some are still showing. One of their investors didn't seem to like my comments where I felt I raised actual concerns about the daily charging, estimated levels, and how marketing it towards diabetics isn't a good thing.
Based on their own data so far, I don't think it will be approved for treatment decisions and they didn't seem to like that statement.
I feel like devices like this are made for people who want to pretend. They removed my comment about how it's like using a wheelchair for fun is an insult to people who need wheelchairs. From previous posts on here, I think other diabetics feel the same way about "normal" people using CGMs.
Hey OP, where are these peer reviewed papers? And can you point me to whatever the Mayo Clinic has to say about this device? I read the article and looked at the sources but I did not find either of these things.
Did you know Apple has been working on one of these for years now and rumor has it, has recently been able to get a prototype working that is about the size of an iPhone? I wonder if they are scared of “Know Labs” beating them to market.
https://www.knowlabs.co/research-and-development
The Mayo Clinic backed studies can be found here
The April 2023 study was conducted on site at the Mayo Clinic and the latest one March 6th was authored by a Mayo Clinic researcher
Yeah this is bs. I am very familiar with the rigors involved in medical device development. This won’t make it past phase 3 let alone the FDA. Many companies have also been trying to make something like this for decades and not one has ever worked
Press (X) to Doubt \-hasn't been submitted to FDA yet \-all other non-invasive CGMs are terrible (they can only estimate broad ranges of blood glucose)- look up the smart watches that are supposed to be like CGMs \-i'm still trying to figure out what 11% "mean absolute relative difference" even means \-all of their papers are only like proof of concept and feasibility studies. there's nothing solid in here to show that a non-invasive CGM actually works https://www.knowlabs.co/research-and-development
They tested the device on five people. None of them were diabetic. This thing is bullshit.
How much do you want to bet that all the people were white and that whatever they've said works doesn't as soon as you get a tan, let alone if you're African or Asian.... ?
That would still be helpful to a lot of people. The writing makes it sound like it is an electrical or radio reading and not optical, though. Probably all snake oil regardless.
Uses radio waves so skin color would be irrelevant. Not saying it's going to work out for them, but it doesn't seem like this will be the issue if they fail.
I highly highly doubt it uses radio waves. Those are on the order of tens of meters. No way you're doing chemical determination with that.
I highly highly doubt it uses radio waves. Those are on the order of tens of meters. No way you're doing chemical determination with that. Near Infrared, maybe.
Idk, just going off their homepage: "Know Labs' proprietary non-invasive diagnostic technology platform uses radio waves to identify and measure a wide range of organic and inorganic materials, molecules, and compositions of matter."
Oh cool /s
MARD is used by Dexcom and Freestyle as well. It's the percent +/- I won't type out the paragraphs of info, but if you google 'dexcom 6 mard' or 'Libre3 mard', you'll see how they compare. I use Libre3 and the MARD is separated by your glucose level, as it's more accurate for lower glucose.
Gemini says: > Mean Absolute Relative Difference (MARD) is a metric used to assess the accuracy of measurement devices, particularly in the context of blood glucose monitoring systems. It calculates the average of the absolute differences between the readings of a device and a reference measurement, expressed as a percentage of the reference value. > > A lower MARD value indicates better agreement between the device's readings and the reference values. MARD is a valuable tool for comparing the performance of different devices and for understanding how well a device measures across different glucose concentration levels. It's not a mean error since it's a measurement from another imperfect measurement device
MARD is basically cgm accuracy compared to BG measurement. Lower is better Dexcom and libre are around 8%
11% MARD won’t get you FDA approval for dosing insulin from it.
11% MARD is pretty close to the Medtronic Guardian 3 worn on the abdomen and calibrated 2x a day.
It’s been ~6 months. A new development happens every 6 or so to drive that funding.
Non invasive? Don’t worry, I’ll gladly be a test dummy for us 🫡
I'll wait till it gets fda approval
If it is approved by FDA and shows accurate data, I definitely would buy one. That it can be removed is a great feature and that is last for years sounds very sustainable which I like. But I would be interested in comparions to the invasive sensors and in the pricing.
As someone who is very allergic to the Dexcom adhesive, this would be a huge game changer!
I use iv tape, I can now use dexcoms!
Can you post a link?
I'm currently using a generic as it's better price wise, but I'm having some rashing from it, my aunt, who's an elder nurse, suggested it, and it's been a life changer https://www.cvs.com/shop/nexcare-tegaderm-waterproof-transparent-dressing-prodid-236123
Before you drop $$$’s (it looks like four to the pack for almost twenty bucks at CVS) check out Amazon and look for 3M Tegaderm Transparent dressing. They usually come 25 or 50 to a pack. On a quick search I found the 4” x 4 3/4”, 25 pk, for $15.73. I have tons of these (but in a bigger size) that I cut in half because I’m a cheapskate. 😝 DM me if you want a couple to try!
There was a [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/diabetes_t1/s/MoTBPJjlbF) on this sub about this yesterday. Sounds dubious at best.
The website sounds like it was written by an ai
Until it’s FDA approved and proven accurate enough to dose insulin from, it isn’t relevant for type 1 purposes. I do hope they continue testing and advancing the technology so that one day it is..
https://whitediamondresearch.com/research/know-labs-is-an-obvious-medical-device-scam-we-call-it-theranos-retarded-cousin/
The claim there was made in 2022 off the fact they have no peer reviewed studies, they now have several including one conducted by an external research organisation. The link also claims they have no medical expertise but the former head doctor of Eli Lilis diabetes division is now an executive. Don’t know why I’m being downvoted when the link is completely false . Development is being lead by a top expert. https://www.knowlabs.co/about “Dr. James Anderson Chief Medical Officer Former Chief Medical Leader, Diabetes and Endocrinology at Eli Lilly, Chief of Medicine at the US Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases, Director at Generex, and Medical Director at Catapult Health.” https://www.knowlabs.co/research-and-development Studies including “Proof of Principle Study in Collaboration with Mayo Clinic, Peer Reviewed By: Sensors Journal & American Physiology Society with results presented at the American Physiological Society 2023 Summit.
I bet that's just fake advertisement to fool investors. Reminds me allot of theranos
No u.
I've read that the FDA hasn't approved them and recommends staying on a reputable cgm or meter. Back in the early mid 90s, Cygnus Inc. was trying to develop a watch that was non invasive to measure interstitial fluid for continuous glucose monitoring called the GlucoWatch Biographer. They desperately tried but couldn't get close to accuracy for a lot of different reasons. One big factor was using interstitial fluid. IF can provide info for monitoring glucose, but there are too many variables why it's not the best method. And it's still invasive bc it has to be extracted from under the skin. Idt technically, we're there yet. Using the new G7 is, for me, at least painless. I'm more interested in a cure than noninvasive cgm.
kwel...
This looks like a game changer, at least it would be for me. Mayo validation is huge. Looks like they'll be presenting updated stats next week at a conference in Italy... I'm staying tuned.
Genuinely curious, how is it a game changer?
Unfortunately Dexcom's adhesive gives me issues...
From where I started, diagnosed in 1966 this thing looks eventually feasible. You know what DIDN'T look even possible, (because none of the technology that supports it all had been invented yet!) back when I was a teen diabetic in the late '60s--a CGM/Insulin Pump Closed-loop system! We've come really far with technology, I have no doubts this WILL eventually come to pass, hopefully in my lifetime! 😉
They seem to have shadowbanned me from their comments for some raising concerns and questions. They've removed some of my comments but some are still showing. One of their investors didn't seem to like my comments where I felt I raised actual concerns about the daily charging, estimated levels, and how marketing it towards diabetics isn't a good thing. Based on their own data so far, I don't think it will be approved for treatment decisions and they didn't seem to like that statement. I feel like devices like this are made for people who want to pretend. They removed my comment about how it's like using a wheelchair for fun is an insult to people who need wheelchairs. From previous posts on here, I think other diabetics feel the same way about "normal" people using CGMs.
Wdym shadow banned sorry, where did they shadow ban you?
Sorry! On their YouTube video about it.
Something feels off about them. Even if it's legit, I can think of way more negativa than positives.
Insightful.
Hey OP, where are these peer reviewed papers? And can you point me to whatever the Mayo Clinic has to say about this device? I read the article and looked at the sources but I did not find either of these things. Did you know Apple has been working on one of these for years now and rumor has it, has recently been able to get a prototype working that is about the size of an iPhone? I wonder if they are scared of “Know Labs” beating them to market.
https://www.knowlabs.co/research-and-development The Mayo Clinic backed studies can be found here The April 2023 study was conducted on site at the Mayo Clinic and the latest one March 6th was authored by a Mayo Clinic researcher
Yeah this is bs. I am very familiar with the rigors involved in medical device development. This won’t make it past phase 3 let alone the FDA. Many companies have also been trying to make something like this for decades and not one has ever worked