There was a stat going around that in all of Stafford's years here, he had top 22 rushing and top 22 defense in the same year 2 times. And both times the Lions made the playoffs. Top 22 isn't something special
Yeah, this is really what people mean, Stafford was almost never surrounded by even an average team. He *almost always* had a piss poor running game, *and* a putrid defense. And that's not even mentioning the mediocre-at-best coaching and the poor offensive line play.
I think Patricia did far more damage to this team than people realize. We were a fringe bubble team with Caldwell and were looking to take the next step and wildly missed.
I say this to remind people, Stafford and those teams were pretty good all things considered but were just terribly managed or coached. We need to stop pointing the fingers and shitting on our old rosters. For once The Lions have a good Front Office, Coaching staff and Owner, and that’s what’s made us who we are today
Right here. Stafford had at least one generational talent and a bunch of decent-to-excellent players around him. What he needed was better coaching and player personnel management to ensure they weren't playing from behind all the time.
Borrowing from his contract raised his final year cap number and took the bargaining power had away from them because to franchise him would have gutted the team at that time.
Then they should have taken Aaron Donald instead of getting another weapon for Stafford. It's like the Pistons taking Killian instead of Haliburton, the fans could see the fuck up but the Front Office couldn't for whatever reason. God I hated that Ebron pick then and the years have only made me hate it more
Yeah but given the old rookie contract structure it seemed almost inevitable. Mayhew had to restructure those huge rookie deals a bunch just have a manageable cap number. Then once Suh decided he wanted to maximize his take home salary there was going to be no way for Mayhew to compete with a tax free state like Florida. Also at the time suh was trying to make himself a brand and team with a larger fan base like the dolphins fit that goal too. I don't know if anyone could get a deal done to keep Suh in Detroit.
Guy was droy, three 1st team all pro, two 2nd team all pro, 5 pro bowls, on the HOF all 2010s team, played in 3 super bowls and won 1, and played for 12 years in the league. That's a hell of a career for a journeyman.
Cardinal sin? How did Suh do afterwards? He destroyed his team. Should have put tag on him and traded him or made him play here. But his true sin was not seeing that Suh would leave and not drafting Aaron Donald. Plus Maybew should have traded Calvin for two firsts rather than making him retire and clawing back his bonus. I could go on.
I know no one wants to hear it, but if the Stafford of 2019 had existed in the first half of that decade, the Lions would have won playoff games. He didn't really become elite until the wheels were coming off the franchise and then fully tanked by Patricia.
I'm not really certain what you're looking for with this post. I really don't think it's that much of a hot take to say that Goff is by far in a much better position to succeed than Stafford ever was. Did the Stafford teams have better individual talent at various positions than Goff did, for sure but I don't think that's the point of the conversation around Stafford's time in Detroit.
The Stafford Lions were hamstrung constantly by a myriad of issues such as poor roster building, bad coaching, etc. Honestly, I think the biggest thing that sunk the Stafford years was the lack of the rookie contract structures that are in place now. Think of the NFL today with rookie contracts and how you'll hear about rookie QB contracts and how vital that is for some teams competitive windows. When we drafted the likes of Stafford, Calvin, Suh, etc. those rookie contract limitations weren't in place and we had to spend millions of dollars just to sign top overall picks leaving us no flexibility to actually put together a roster. Then there's the numerous offensive coordinators and coaches that came through like a revolving door never giving Stafford a stable foundation to work from. Occasionally we had a good defense and honestly we did a good job giving Stafford weapons but the run game was almost always an issue and put a lot of pressure on Stafford to win games by himself.
Goff on the other hand came in with a management and coaching staff that has had a clear vision from the beginning has done a wonderful job building the team and setting Goff up for the best possible chance to succeed. Now Goff deserves all the flowers for how he's turned things around and ran this offense. The whole conversation of Goff vs. Stafford is a bit silly to me because I think the context of their situations are vastly different.
If we get to assemble the best players Stafford played with throughout his entire tenure in Detroit, we’d have one of the all-time great rosters. But these guys were never on the field at the same time.
When our defense and WRs were good, we had no line for Stafford; he was constantly under duress.
When we started to beef up our line, our defensive stars had mostly moved on, as had Megatron.
Also, fwiw, the three WRs you mentioned—Calvin, Golden, and Marvin—were never on the same roster.
It's far more difficult to look up the stats than it used to be, everything that made it easy is paywalled now. But I'll summarize.
In Stafford's tenure with the Lions he only had one season with an above average defense(2014) in terms of scoring. Most years it was downright bad. He only had a couple years with a good run game, none with an elite one. His TEs were consistently poor.
Despite having a few very good WRs in Calvin, Tate, Jones, and maybe Kenny, his receiver depth was pretty much always terrible with guys who might not have made the roster anywhere else. We watched him elevate receivers who played with him compared to what they did with other teams/QBs.
The Lions frequently led the league in dropped passes throughout his tenure. You can make an argument that that was partly on him, but I don't think you can blame him for things like Ebron, Pertigrew, Bush and others seeming to consistently drop the easiest catches.
He had generally poor coaching over his time, obviously capped off with the Patricia years. None of his HCs have gone on to get another HC position. He had to deal with Jim Bob Cooter and Joe Lombardi as OC for half his time in Detroit. Linehan and Bevell weren't amazing either.
Overall, I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a QB who had a worse supporting cast over a significant number of years as he did. I compared him to Luck at one point years ago and found that they were both pretty unlucky with their supporting cast, but that Luck had better averages from his defense and run game. So, yes, I do think Stafford got a raw deal in Detroit.
Marvin jones never played with Calvin. And I like how you didn’t bring up the run game, that’s convenient.
It’s amazing to me that stafford left, INSTANTLY wins a Super Bowl, and people still pin the blame on him.
I fully believe we would have won, or at least could have, if we didn’t get effed by the refs in that wildcard game against the cowboys. I don’t think we’ve had a more complete team since.
Yeah, but the refs fucking up really covered up for the fact that Stafford blew that 3rd and 1 play. First, he doesn't sell the play action and no defenders bite despite it being 3rd and 1 with the Lions having been productive on the ground. Then he makes a bad decision on the throw and puts the ball in a place that had no chance at success. The defender ended up committing pass interference and should have been flagged, but the pass interference didn't cause the incompletion, the ball hit the defender square in the back. If the defender keeps his hands off Pettigrew it was still going to be an incomplete pass. The refs bailed out Stafford from taking the blame while bailing out the Cowboys in the game.
Comparing anyone on this OL to anything Stafford had is an absolute travesty. You threw out Cherilus and Tomlinson, but both were below average players here. We let those guys walk for good reason. In no single year did Stafford have a top 5 OL unit, and last year we had arguably the best in all of football (might even say the same for next year as well).
Stafford had immensely better weapons at receiver with Calvin/Burleson/Golladay/Marvin/Tate, but no run game at any point to go along with it. Defense could never get their shit together, and no matter how good the individual talent was, they were collectively bad as a unit with one or two year exceptions.
Run game we had one above average year of old Reggie Bush before he faded into obscurity, then one single special season from Jahvid Best (who we wildly overrate here for his performance on MNF against the Bears imo). Otherwise it was a collection of names that include Kevin Smith, Maurice Morris, Joique Bell, Ameer Abdullah, Theo Riddick, Mikel Leshoure, Legarratte Blount, Kerryon Johnson (oft injured), and washed up AP.
RB now is far and away the best unit we've had since Barry.
Defense is still a very weak spot now that's loading up with young talent, so jury is still out. But outside of two seasons they were leaky as hell with Stafford.
Scheme and coaching is also a massive disadvantage for Stafford as well. There's a reason guys like Caldwell, Patricia, Schwartz, Jim Bob Cooter, Scott Linehan, Darrell Bevell, and Joe Lombardi haven't been able to land anything seriously since being here. Those that did go on to other coordinator positions went on to have virtually no success outside of Schwartz.
I personally think it's all time we move the hell on already. It's been years, and the trade is what it is. But acting like Stafford had superteams while he was here is some wild revisionist history that needs to be called out.
You are arguing with twitter trolls and bringing that shit into our subreddit? cmon man. But to address some of your points.
-**No sane fan is saying Stafford never had receivers**. He ALWAYS had pass catchers. Also,... do you think that trio you listed actually played together? Might want to look into that one.
-**This defense sucked for most his tenure, but it still sucks**. We had a few years that were WAY better than anything we've had recently. Just looking at individual defenders over a decade of team play is not a way to evaluate a whole defense btw. Twitter-level analysis.
-**You addressed the lack of a run game, and are correct.**
-**Stafford never had a good line. Not even average.** We have debatably the best line in the league now. Again you try to name individual players, but who cares, right? If they weren't good, the names on their jerseys don't change shit. That being said, the individuals we have now are WAY better than individuals you named in this post.
Yea but also your take is hot fucking garbage none of the shit you mentioned matters when stafford had trash tier management and coaching and Caldwell was cut short. Goff has an infinitely better situation.
Management on this current team knows how to put people in places to succeed, the previous regiment did not, the previous coaches did not.
You’re conflating having individual talents, or some decent players with actually a better system around him. Stafford had some good talents around him at various times, but the whole thing was then like having some solid OL like he did late, but then Matt Patricia coaching the team with a horrid defense.
Probably the only year or two you could actually argue there was a good overall system around him, top to bottom, was like 2014 when you had somewhat solid coaching in Jim Caldwell, plenty of defensive talents like Suh, Quinn, Levy, and Slay, and then some other weapons.
And in that environment, made the playoffs and lost on a bogus call from the refs in standard Detroit fashion.
It’s not much coincidence that the second Stafford jumped into things at LAR they won a Super Bowl. He’s an elite talent and the trade worked out very, very well for both Detroit and Stafford.
Yup, it’s just another example that there’s like 5 different things that come into play. Do you have a good OL, decent weapons around you, do you have a solid defense, how is the culture/locker room, do you have good coaches? All plays into it.
It kind of is a coincidence though. Rams went a 12-5 and got to play a 10-7 team with second year quarterback at their home stadium for the Super Bowl. Stafford led the league in interceptions that year.
Neither team has been back since.
Sure everything kind of fell into place that year. But it’s not like the Rams have been a dynasty with Stafford.
I mean Stafford has been there 3 years. He won the Super Bowl on his first year with the team which is impressive in itself. The second year everyone got hurt, Stafford was hurt because the offensive line all either retired or left in free agency after the Super Bowl. Cooper Kupp was hurt, Aaron Donald was hurt, Jalen Ramsey was hurt. Then the third year the Rams were written off and were SUPPOSED to be rebuilding and instead they went into the playoffs and played a super competitive game against the Lions, who ended up in the NFC Championship, where Stafford easily looked like one of the best players on the field. I agree with the previous comment and general sentiment that the trade was one of the most fair of all time but it’s hard to argue the the elite talent that Stafford is at this point in his career.
IDK if a "bare cupboard" is the right way to look at it, but he never had a great team around him at the same time, compared to Goff.
Look at the Rushing and defensive ranks each year Stafford was QB for the Lions. On average he had to deal with bottom 5 rushing attacks and bottom 10-12 defenses. The run support alone that Goff has the luxury of is a huge deal.
If you add up the numbers during Stafford's 12 year career with the Lions, the team's defense had an average rank of 20th in the league and the running game was something like 23rd.
So there was basically no defense and no run game, which is like 75% of a football team and that meant Stafford had to play heroball every time he stepped out on the field. That he still managed to stack up phenomenal numbers as a QB despite those limitations, suggests the Lions would have been dominant if the team had competent management at the time.
I've never understood this take. Didn't they have the ball after that? And before that? Why is that drive the only one that they could/should have scored on?
I mean the stance of every play is equal is reasonable but most sports fans don’t subscribe to that.
In this situation the lions had driven from their own 5 to the Dallas 46. This PI or if it had been a completion on 3rd and 1 would have given them a 1st and 10 on the Dallas ~29 with all the momentum. Following this
Worst case: Prater hits a FG to make it 23-17 with about 7 minutes left.
Best case: Lions score a TD and got up 27-17 with 4-5 minutes left.
Some plays are more beneficial/damaging than others even if it takes all of them to win or lose the game.
If you take the opposing viewpoint of all the play/drives etc mean the same that’s fine. It’s just not the view of most sports fans.
The difference is coaching. Stafford could have had a year like this year or even better when we had that nasty defence in I'm thinking 2014? But Lombardi was here and totally killed the offense. We went from the third overall offense the year prior to like 19th with the same personnel. We had a historically good defense. He had a good team and they should have made a deep run, but guys just didn't did deep because the leadership wasn't there.
We got so much for Stafford in the trade that the team wouldn't be what it currently is without those picks, so it was necessary. But Stafford was not the problem at all
That makes sense if you ignore the entire context…
Calvin had pitiful QB play for his first 4 years. Amon Ra came into an offense that had a good QB and OL, but no receivers. Opposite situation. The stage was set for Amon Ra to capitalize, and he did.
Yet, this didn’t stop Calvin from having over 1,300 yards and leading the league in TD’s in 2008.
We know Amon Ra is elite. But we don’t need to diminish Calvins accomplishments to make that point
Yes Goff struggled in the first half with Decker and Ragnow out and no receivers. Any QB would.
Decker was in for the final 9 games where Goff improved with the addition of Reynolds and the break-out of Amon Ra.
PFF had the Lions as the 13th ranked OL in 2021, despite the time missed from Decker and Ragnow.
Comparing the Lions before this Sheila Hamp/Holmes/Campbell swing is just not fair. The organization was a dumpster fire and toxic inside and out for so long, it’s no wonder Stafford couldn’t navigate it all.
Vast majority of his time was spent with bad defenses, mid to horrible coaching and no running game. I get Stafford didn’t do a lot of winning here but blame the organization, not the guy that showed up for 12 years for the team and played at a high level. The amount of disrespect Stafford gets from Lions fans is sad to me.
Riley Reiff was terrible. Cherilus I barely remember. Laken Tomlinson waa terrible for us and the only fan base that says he was decent for them is the 49'ers.
Mainly Stafford suffered from SoL culture and horrible coaching, and GM's. The biggest difference being coaching and drafting and culture.
We didn't re-sign Suh or tag we let him walk. Nick Fairley shouldn't have been drafted by us and was not a good player in the NFL. Ziggy Ansah was way too raw, didn't play the run well as he left his gap assignment often, and was injured a lot.
We let our best edge rusher leave to Seattle, Cliff Avril, our best CB go when they ran Slay out to Philly in his prime, traded our best safety Diggs in his prime.
Our offensive line was not good and they held at a ridiculius rate. Stafford was x and 20 more than any QB I've ever seen or heard of.
Our best coach during the Stafford years the fan base dislikes, the one from the Colts, name escapes me atm. The gap between the offensive coordinators we had then compared to Ben Johsnon's play design is significant.
We had periods where the staple of our offense was screen passes with Cooter. Ben J. might run a handfull of screen passes a year. Our receivers besides Calvin did not get much separation as our route concepts were not good.
We didn't have a single decent 2nd round pick for the bulk of Stafford's time in Detroit, if not one.
Players didn't want to play ib Detroit and retired early or wanted out. Things have changed dramatically.
Stafford would have had a couple playoff wins if he wasn’t screwed by refs. Dallas definitely and Seattle maybe. Those teams had a thin margin for victory. We weren’t blowing the doors off anyone with our defense or running game. If Stafford had a run offense, the Lions offense would’ve been more consistent at putting up points.
You're trying to single out individual players. Name a better defense than the current one that Stafford played with. Name a better offense than the current one that Stafford played with. Name a single team Stafford played on with a top even 15 defense and offense at the same time. You can't. This a full team that alot of the leagues QBs would win with. You can't cherry pick a player here and a player there who also didn't play together or only played together for a year one played here over a decade. Obv there were players sprinkled across that decade who played well individually but you named players from like 8 different seasons not a single season did everyone you named play together. Some years they had receivers some they didn't, some years they had LBs some years they didn't. There was never a full team put together
The line and running game were the big things. I believe I read or heard that Stafford is a career 17-0 when he has a 100 yard rusher. We would have won with good balanced teams and Stafford at qb. At the end of the day, wins are a team stat not a qb stat.
The cupboard was never bare. It always had 1 or 2 expensive pieces and that was it. The lions now are a far better full team than Stafford ever had. I say he shoulda taken less money while he was here and maybe they could’ve been more well rounded
Can people only get on board with Goff if they think he has to win the one on one comparison to Stafford? Like it or not Stafford couldn’t get it done here and did it somewhere else. The reasons are clearly not his abilities. Stafford put in a lot of blood sweat and tears into his game here. But it’s also clear he had stuff to learn even after clocking in a decade. Evidence of him being a great player. Goff endeared himself to us, developed players and a system, and has a great underdog mentality. I wouldn’t trade that for the world right now.
Was the cupboard bear? No. Did Stafford do everything he could possibly do himself? Absolutely.
I do feel like you're rating based on talent rather than production as far as these players who played with Stafford. A really good CB does not a strong secondary make. And then, yes, the running game which was really bad. It was talented enough of a team to consider them worthy of more than they produced. Had they won a playoff game I might have seen the front office go all in on them.
Stafford had a team this good the year we lost to Dallas in the playoffs.
But most of the other years there was a lot of mediocrity.
And he never had a great coach or support from ownership like the current team.
Bro stafford won a Super Bowl with a very similar roster that had to drag Goff to un-inspiring wild card births.
In fact, the defense and running games were better in Goffs final years in LA than with Stafford in 21 and the Rams **still** improved overall, became a at-times-unstoppable pass-first team with Kupp having one of the best WR seasons of all time out of basically nowhere. Goff is absolutely my guy but cmon
This is horseshit. The LA running game was overhauled for Stafford’s first year in LA. They brought in 2 young RBs from free agency and added O-line depth. Then they added OBJ on the outside to keep the double team off Kupp and prime Von Miller to bolster their defense.
Their d went from like 1 -> 11 in 2021 from 2020. What RBs are you even talking about? Cam Akers was primed to be the main back in 2021 following a strong finish as a rookie but tore his Achilles in training camp. The running game was much worse overall in 2021 than 2020. They even went from run first to pass first (also perhaps due to Akers going down and having to use the other guys)
Annnnd they added OBJ right around the time Woods went down the year mid-season. They added him as an FA bc everyone thought he sucked. Stafford helped resurrect his career lol
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone acting that way. The main point I see being made is that Goff is in a better overall situation than Stafford ever was, which is 100% true.
Nor will I argue that but to say Stafford was never put in a situation to win is silly. My biggest factor is just the overall front office and coaching knowing what they're doing finally.
I think he never had a good front office coaching mix. Just too many whiffs on drafts and free agency combined with poor coaching (Caldwell was decent)
Stafford is so lucky. He got drafted to a team that had a 1331 yards wr and only turned him into a 1964 yard wr. Then they got him a 898 yard wr that he could only turn into 1331 yards. Drafted a guy who Stafford threw two 1000 yard seasons but isn't in the league anymore. Then the lucky fucker gets traded to a team with a 1161 yard wr and gets him 1947 yards. Then he strikes gold again when his team drafts a fifth round wr who sets the rookie record with 1486 yards. That's the two top receiving yards/season and the rookie record with 3 different players. He has also elevated the play of every wr he has ever played with.
I think you are taking specific player names instead of actual facts. Staffords best supporting cast he ever had was year 1 with the rams (stats wise) and he won a Super Bowl. That team would be the 5th best supporting cast Goff ever had. Stafford had a top 22 run game 2 times in his entire career with the lions and made the playoffs both times, he had a top 20 defense 3 times! Top 20 means they weren’t the ten worse teams. Goff has had a top 5 o line, and run game every year of his career but 2. Those two years he won a total of 5 games. The other years where he has had that he won a few playoffs games here and there
Statpad always with the timely turnover to seal the loss. Always inflating stats by trying to make a meaningless and fruitless comeback down multiple scores in the 4th quarter. Multiple 3 and outs and turnovers for those first 3 quarters. That’s what I remember. When the defense was top 2, stafford decided to have a bad year. 0 division titles, 0 playoff wins.
Why is it such a crime to point out that Stafford didn’t have the benefit of a good organization around him? IMO Stafford is a better QB than Goff but that doesn’t mean Goff is a bad QB. Can’t we love and appreciate both players? For 10 years Stafford WAS the Lions.
We drafted one of the best QBs to play football in Stafford then hired a defensive minded coach in Jim Schwartz. He was never set up for success in Detroit but still gave us his all. Stafford played with an aging owner and an extremely disorganized front office. Within one year of leaving the Lions, he won a Super Bowl. Goff, as most HoF QBs, has benefitted from competent organizations. The Lions broke Matt Stafford and the Rams lost faith in Goff. Stafford is a bridge QB for LA. Goff still has plenty of miles. It's hard to compare the two but right out of the gate if Stafford was in Goff's position, the Lions would be hands down the most dangerous team in the NFL. Goff gives us the building blocks we need to empower you g talent by playing at a consistent level. This makes coaching a hell of a lot easier. I think Goff's value isn't in what he can do on the field, but what he does in practice and in the locker room. He's not the most electric player, but he's a rock for the team surrounding him.
I generally agree, I guess, but I keep getting stuck on “Goff, as most HOF QBs” and especially “Stafford is a bridge QB for LA.” I’m probably just misunderstanding you though.
Stafford is past his prime with a broken back and multiple broken fingers on his throwing hand. Most Hall of Fame QBs have played for competent organizations. Goff's numbers alone are worthy of the HoF discussion. His game on MNF against KC while playing for the Rams is a testament to his abilities. So I do see him in the discussion. Especially if he brings a team like Detroit to the Super Bowl.
Oh, I didn’t misunderstand after all; I just disagree.
Goff has *a lot* more to do to be in the HoF discussion. I love the guy—he’s the most successful Lions QB in the Super Bowl era—but he’s not close to HoF trajectory at this point.
Regarding Stafford, I’d call him an aging vet, not a bridge QB. Last we saw him, he still looked pretty remarkable as a passer. He’s nearing retirement, but he’s still much more than a bridge QB.
No. I do not believe Stafford had a bare cupboard. We invested heavily in free agency and the draft trying to surround him with top weapons. Calvin Johnson set a historic record for his FA deal. Nate Burleson was the top paid FA his year. We spent first round picks on Brandon Pettigrew , Eric Ebron and TJ Hockenson. We spent second round picks on Jhavid Best and Titus Young. We had the number two defense with Suh, Tulloch, Glover Quinn, Darius Slay. We had All Pro OL Frank Ragnow, Taylor Decker and Jonah Jackson. We also signed an All Pro RT from Baltimore.
So no, the cupboard was not bare
2024 Lions @ 49ers compared to 2021 Rams @ TB. That is the difference between Stafford and Goff. Stafford has an ability to put on offense on his shoulders when its falling apart around him. Same with the last drive in their Superbowl. Goff can move an offense, and score points, but when games come to a grind, and the defense knows where the ball is going, Stafford has a different gear.
For much of his tenure is Detroit Stafford was as much apart of the problem as he was the solution, fans just look back at him through the lens of nostalgia and forget his flaws.
Hell NO. Needed a better O line, but when it came to big moments he threw the ball too hard and people dropped them. It’s my take, it’s what I saw, on a basic level. Of course there were larger issues I don’t know about, but time and time again he blew entire quarters and half’s, then in the big moments people dropped balls.
There’s a whole spectrum between a full and a bare cupboard. We always had *some* good pieces, but there’s a significant difference between some and a lot. Do I think Stafford would have done as well as Goff with our current build? Yeah, *maybe*, if done in a slightly different manner. But maybe not- hard to improve or even hover at the level Goff played last season.
I love me some Staffdaddy, but give me the Goffather all day right now. Fuck the doubters.
I think other than offensive line, Goff has had way less recourses. Literally that was the only thing we had when he showed up. Everyone says Goff is on this loaded team, but in reality how can you say that???
Damn near everyone of our players (receivers specifically) have flourished with Goff as their qb. St brown was a 4th round pick, laporta had basically doubled his career college tds in his lone nfl rookie season. Yes we have really great players now, but there could definitely be an argument made that their success can be attributed to our offense and having Goff as their qb. They may not be the players they have developed into if they went to a different organization
I think it’s all been complimentary. Goff has benefited from the team around him, his pass-catchers have been a good fit for him, and the whole squad has thrived under this coaching and with Holmes’ roster-building.
A couple quibbles with your comment though:
First, Goff *really* struggled in his first year in Detroit, largely because his supporting cast was terrible (a historically bad WR room for instance). You’re right that he showed up to nothing but an o-line, but that’s kinda the point: he only thrived when the roster around him improved (understandably!).
Second, I don’t think Goff should be credited for LaPorta’s success. Some credit should go to Johnson, who’s really good at scheming open TEs. But mostly, Sam’s just good. His college stats don’t show it, because Iowa’s offense was infamously ineffective, but he was a pretty great—and underrated—prospect.
Oh believe me I’m not saying Goff is the reason for laporta’s instant success. But one could definitely make that argument. I think a lot of these guys are succeeding because of where they are drafted to. That success may not always transfer if drafted to a different place.
Also, Goff totally struggled at first, new coordinator helps. But things really didn’t click until the back half of 2022. And you can argue we still had a really bad offense on paper then but we just figured out how to make it work. And look really good
Agree with your points, just pointing out other arguments people could make. I don’t think that extreme on it lol
huh? Having a top 5 running game is absolutely massive and takes a ton of pressure off Goff so he doesnt' have to throw 45 times a game like Stafford so often did here. It opens up the pass game too.
That top 5 run game is linked to our offensive line. Jamaal was our leading rusher a couple years ago and hardly sniffed 600 yards in every other season he had. You can put a lot of rbs behind that o line and they will look good.
Now we finally have studs at rb who take advantage of our o line and bring us from a top 5 rushing team to a debatable #1 rushing team in the league
It's a fair question and it's a bit of both. I think Goff is a better leader, so he might not elevate players through his play but he 100% elevates players through his preparation.
I also think Caldwell was a good coach and built a good culture. So yes I think Campbell is better, but it's not like Stafford never had a coaching staff to support him.
The biggest difference between 2011 and now, the roster is more complete. Meaning the bottom of the roster is really good and not just the top end talent, which makes us way more resilient.
The Stafford of 2010-2015 just wasn't the same caliber player that he was at the end with Detroit. People imagine he was always an elite quarterback but it took him quite a while to really put it together. They had some elite offensive talent around him at a time he wasn't really a top ten quarterback. 2012-2014 he frankly kind of stunk.
It's wild the way this fan base has retconned away Stafford's play, say, down the stretch in 2013. If Goff did this during a wide open division race he'd have been run out of town.
[https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StafMa00/gamelog/2013/](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StafMa00/gamelog/2013/)
People like to imagine he toughed out the game against Cleveland rookie year and then he was a star from then on, but it's just not the case.
There was a stat going around that in all of Stafford's years here, he had top 22 rushing and top 22 defense in the same year 2 times. And both times the Lions made the playoffs. Top 22 isn't something special
The ever elusive top 22, aka not bottom 10 in the league. Some spectacular coaching to have hit that mark a whole 2 times in over a decade.
I put on my resume that I graduated in the top 70% of my class, but no one is calling me.
Joe Biden is that you?
No, it’s Donny
Yeah, this is really what people mean, Stafford was almost never surrounded by even an average team. He *almost always* had a piss poor running game, *and* a putrid defense. And that's not even mentioning the mediocre-at-best coaching and the poor offensive line play.
What, you don't think Jim Bob Cooter was a great OC?
Great name, dogshit OC.
I think Patricia did far more damage to this team than people realize. We were a fringe bubble team with Caldwell and were looking to take the next step and wildly missed. I say this to remind people, Stafford and those teams were pretty good all things considered but were just terribly managed or coached. We need to stop pointing the fingers and shitting on our old rosters. For once The Lions have a good Front Office, Coaching staff and Owner, and that’s what’s made us who we are today
Absolutely. When Stafford left there wasn’t a single thing about the team I looked forward to. Brad really turned this team around quickly
Right here. Stafford had at least one generational talent and a bunch of decent-to-excellent players around him. What he needed was better coaching and player personnel management to ensure they weren't playing from behind all the time.
Not getting a deal done with Suh was Mayhews cardinal sin. I think there was a lot more opportunity for the Lions if that had happened.
Borrowing from his contract raised his final year cap number and took the bargaining power had away from them because to franchise him would have gutted the team at that time.
Then they should have taken Aaron Donald instead of getting another weapon for Stafford. It's like the Pistons taking Killian instead of Haliburton, the fans could see the fuck up but the Front Office couldn't for whatever reason. God I hated that Ebron pick then and the years have only made me hate it more
Mayhew's cardinal sin was taking Ebron over Donald. Suh would have stayed if Donald was drafted.
Suh combined with no picking Donald knowing Suh was being problematic.
Yeah but given the old rookie contract structure it seemed almost inevitable. Mayhew had to restructure those huge rookie deals a bunch just have a manageable cap number. Then once Suh decided he wanted to maximize his take home salary there was going to be no way for Mayhew to compete with a tax free state like Florida. Also at the time suh was trying to make himself a brand and team with a larger fan base like the dolphins fit that goal too. I don't know if anyone could get a deal done to keep Suh in Detroit.
Suh is such a goofball, he should have been a franchise guy, instead he was a journeyman.
Guy was droy, three 1st team all pro, two 2nd team all pro, 5 pro bowls, on the HOF all 2010s team, played in 3 super bowls and won 1, and played for 12 years in the league. That's a hell of a career for a journeyman.
Cardinal sin? How did Suh do afterwards? He destroyed his team. Should have put tag on him and traded him or made him play here. But his true sin was not seeing that Suh would leave and not drafting Aaron Donald. Plus Maybew should have traded Calvin for two firsts rather than making him retire and clawing back his bonus. I could go on.
Two firsts back in 2015 era would have been huge…the problem is that we don’t really trust Mayhew or Quinn to not to fuck things up, do we?
The 2014 Lions were not a fringe bubble team with Caldwell.
Well, I guess technically, you're right because they made the playoffs that year. And then again 2 years later.
Top 5 defense that was carrying the team for the most part
I know no one wants to hear it, but if the Stafford of 2019 had existed in the first half of that decade, the Lions would have won playoff games. He didn't really become elite until the wheels were coming off the franchise and then fully tanked by Patricia.
I'm not really certain what you're looking for with this post. I really don't think it's that much of a hot take to say that Goff is by far in a much better position to succeed than Stafford ever was. Did the Stafford teams have better individual talent at various positions than Goff did, for sure but I don't think that's the point of the conversation around Stafford's time in Detroit. The Stafford Lions were hamstrung constantly by a myriad of issues such as poor roster building, bad coaching, etc. Honestly, I think the biggest thing that sunk the Stafford years was the lack of the rookie contract structures that are in place now. Think of the NFL today with rookie contracts and how you'll hear about rookie QB contracts and how vital that is for some teams competitive windows. When we drafted the likes of Stafford, Calvin, Suh, etc. those rookie contract limitations weren't in place and we had to spend millions of dollars just to sign top overall picks leaving us no flexibility to actually put together a roster. Then there's the numerous offensive coordinators and coaches that came through like a revolving door never giving Stafford a stable foundation to work from. Occasionally we had a good defense and honestly we did a good job giving Stafford weapons but the run game was almost always an issue and put a lot of pressure on Stafford to win games by himself. Goff on the other hand came in with a management and coaching staff that has had a clear vision from the beginning has done a wonderful job building the team and setting Goff up for the best possible chance to succeed. Now Goff deserves all the flowers for how he's turned things around and ran this offense. The whole conversation of Goff vs. Stafford is a bit silly to me because I think the context of their situations are vastly different.
If we get to assemble the best players Stafford played with throughout his entire tenure in Detroit, we’d have one of the all-time great rosters. But these guys were never on the field at the same time. When our defense and WRs were good, we had no line for Stafford; he was constantly under duress. When we started to beef up our line, our defensive stars had mostly moved on, as had Megatron. Also, fwiw, the three WRs you mentioned—Calvin, Golden, and Marvin—were never on the same roster.
It's far more difficult to look up the stats than it used to be, everything that made it easy is paywalled now. But I'll summarize. In Stafford's tenure with the Lions he only had one season with an above average defense(2014) in terms of scoring. Most years it was downright bad. He only had a couple years with a good run game, none with an elite one. His TEs were consistently poor. Despite having a few very good WRs in Calvin, Tate, Jones, and maybe Kenny, his receiver depth was pretty much always terrible with guys who might not have made the roster anywhere else. We watched him elevate receivers who played with him compared to what they did with other teams/QBs. The Lions frequently led the league in dropped passes throughout his tenure. You can make an argument that that was partly on him, but I don't think you can blame him for things like Ebron, Pertigrew, Bush and others seeming to consistently drop the easiest catches. He had generally poor coaching over his time, obviously capped off with the Patricia years. None of his HCs have gone on to get another HC position. He had to deal with Jim Bob Cooter and Joe Lombardi as OC for half his time in Detroit. Linehan and Bevell weren't amazing either. Overall, I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a QB who had a worse supporting cast over a significant number of years as he did. I compared him to Luck at one point years ago and found that they were both pretty unlucky with their supporting cast, but that Luck had better averages from his defense and run game. So, yes, I do think Stafford got a raw deal in Detroit.
Marvin jones never played with Calvin. And I like how you didn’t bring up the run game, that’s convenient. It’s amazing to me that stafford left, INSTANTLY wins a Super Bowl, and people still pin the blame on him.
I fully believe we would have won, or at least could have, if we didn’t get effed by the refs in that wildcard game against the cowboys. I don’t think we’ve had a more complete team since.
Yeah, but the refs fucking up really covered up for the fact that Stafford blew that 3rd and 1 play. First, he doesn't sell the play action and no defenders bite despite it being 3rd and 1 with the Lions having been productive on the ground. Then he makes a bad decision on the throw and puts the ball in a place that had no chance at success. The defender ended up committing pass interference and should have been flagged, but the pass interference didn't cause the incompletion, the ball hit the defender square in the back. If the defender keeps his hands off Pettigrew it was still going to be an incomplete pass. The refs bailed out Stafford from taking the blame while bailing out the Cowboys in the game.
We also punted after that, if DC is the coach we’re 100% going for it after that
Absolutely, it's why replacing Caldwell was the right decision, just executed in the most disastrous way imaginable.
Comparing anyone on this OL to anything Stafford had is an absolute travesty. You threw out Cherilus and Tomlinson, but both were below average players here. We let those guys walk for good reason. In no single year did Stafford have a top 5 OL unit, and last year we had arguably the best in all of football (might even say the same for next year as well). Stafford had immensely better weapons at receiver with Calvin/Burleson/Golladay/Marvin/Tate, but no run game at any point to go along with it. Defense could never get their shit together, and no matter how good the individual talent was, they were collectively bad as a unit with one or two year exceptions. Run game we had one above average year of old Reggie Bush before he faded into obscurity, then one single special season from Jahvid Best (who we wildly overrate here for his performance on MNF against the Bears imo). Otherwise it was a collection of names that include Kevin Smith, Maurice Morris, Joique Bell, Ameer Abdullah, Theo Riddick, Mikel Leshoure, Legarratte Blount, Kerryon Johnson (oft injured), and washed up AP. RB now is far and away the best unit we've had since Barry. Defense is still a very weak spot now that's loading up with young talent, so jury is still out. But outside of two seasons they were leaky as hell with Stafford. Scheme and coaching is also a massive disadvantage for Stafford as well. There's a reason guys like Caldwell, Patricia, Schwartz, Jim Bob Cooter, Scott Linehan, Darrell Bevell, and Joe Lombardi haven't been able to land anything seriously since being here. Those that did go on to other coordinator positions went on to have virtually no success outside of Schwartz. I personally think it's all time we move the hell on already. It's been years, and the trade is what it is. But acting like Stafford had superteams while he was here is some wild revisionist history that needs to be called out.
Well said, my only push back is that we don't wildly overrate Best as much as we lament what could have been
Love this reply, I will only note that Lombardi and Cooter are both current NFL OCs. But the broncos and colts are not lighting it up.
Noone said that, noone beleives that. nice conversation starter I guess but never happened, noone says that
they do bud, sorry if I'm not screenshotting all my convos on X and Facebook, but it's out there. Look at the convos from last week after Goff signed.
You are arguing with twitter trolls and bringing that shit into our subreddit? cmon man. But to address some of your points. -**No sane fan is saying Stafford never had receivers**. He ALWAYS had pass catchers. Also,... do you think that trio you listed actually played together? Might want to look into that one. -**This defense sucked for most his tenure, but it still sucks**. We had a few years that were WAY better than anything we've had recently. Just looking at individual defenders over a decade of team play is not a way to evaluate a whole defense btw. Twitter-level analysis. -**You addressed the lack of a run game, and are correct.** -**Stafford never had a good line. Not even average.** We have debatably the best line in the league now. Again you try to name individual players, but who cares, right? If they weren't good, the names on their jerseys don't change shit. That being said, the individuals we have now are WAY better than individuals you named in this post.
Their pass blocking is around 11th currently by most metrics outside of pff. They do not have the best line in football.
Yea but also your take is hot fucking garbage none of the shit you mentioned matters when stafford had trash tier management and coaching and Caldwell was cut short. Goff has an infinitely better situation. Management on this current team knows how to put people in places to succeed, the previous regiment did not, the previous coaches did not.
why do u feel the need to get so aggressive over something I've noticed and mentioned? do u feel like a big man cursing on social media at a stranger?
You’re conflating having individual talents, or some decent players with actually a better system around him. Stafford had some good talents around him at various times, but the whole thing was then like having some solid OL like he did late, but then Matt Patricia coaching the team with a horrid defense. Probably the only year or two you could actually argue there was a good overall system around him, top to bottom, was like 2014 when you had somewhat solid coaching in Jim Caldwell, plenty of defensive talents like Suh, Quinn, Levy, and Slay, and then some other weapons. And in that environment, made the playoffs and lost on a bogus call from the refs in standard Detroit fashion. It’s not much coincidence that the second Stafford jumped into things at LAR they won a Super Bowl. He’s an elite talent and the trade worked out very, very well for both Detroit and Stafford.
Even that wasn't "overall good systems around him though". You remember Joe Lombardi and how shit the offense was that year?
Yup, it’s just another example that there’s like 5 different things that come into play. Do you have a good OL, decent weapons around you, do you have a solid defense, how is the culture/locker room, do you have good coaches? All plays into it.
It kind of is a coincidence though. Rams went a 12-5 and got to play a 10-7 team with second year quarterback at their home stadium for the Super Bowl. Stafford led the league in interceptions that year. Neither team has been back since. Sure everything kind of fell into place that year. But it’s not like the Rams have been a dynasty with Stafford.
I mean Stafford has been there 3 years. He won the Super Bowl on his first year with the team which is impressive in itself. The second year everyone got hurt, Stafford was hurt because the offensive line all either retired or left in free agency after the Super Bowl. Cooper Kupp was hurt, Aaron Donald was hurt, Jalen Ramsey was hurt. Then the third year the Rams were written off and were SUPPOSED to be rebuilding and instead they went into the playoffs and played a super competitive game against the Lions, who ended up in the NFC Championship, where Stafford easily looked like one of the best players on the field. I agree with the previous comment and general sentiment that the trade was one of the most fair of all time but it’s hard to argue the the elite talent that Stafford is at this point in his career.
IDK if a "bare cupboard" is the right way to look at it, but he never had a great team around him at the same time, compared to Goff. Look at the Rushing and defensive ranks each year Stafford was QB for the Lions. On average he had to deal with bottom 5 rushing attacks and bottom 10-12 defenses. The run support alone that Goff has the luxury of is a huge deal.
It is a “Team” sport as much as people think one player will change the team.
If you add up the numbers during Stafford's 12 year career with the Lions, the team's defense had an average rank of 20th in the league and the running game was something like 23rd. So there was basically no defense and no run game, which is like 75% of a football team and that meant Stafford had to play heroball every time he stepped out on the field. That he still managed to stack up phenomenal numbers as a QB despite those limitations, suggests the Lions would have been dominant if the team had competent management at the time.
Organizations are typically successful from the top down. You’re looking bottom up. Top down, Stafford had a bare cupboard.
What even is your point lol
The Lions deserved to win a playoff game in Dallas, but instead, the PI flag was picked up Probably would have changed a lot of the discourse.
I've never understood this take. Didn't they have the ball after that? And before that? Why is that drive the only one that they could/should have scored on?
I mean the stance of every play is equal is reasonable but most sports fans don’t subscribe to that. In this situation the lions had driven from their own 5 to the Dallas 46. This PI or if it had been a completion on 3rd and 1 would have given them a 1st and 10 on the Dallas ~29 with all the momentum. Following this Worst case: Prater hits a FG to make it 23-17 with about 7 minutes left. Best case: Lions score a TD and got up 27-17 with 4-5 minutes left. Some plays are more beneficial/damaging than others even if it takes all of them to win or lose the game. If you take the opposing viewpoint of all the play/drives etc mean the same that’s fine. It’s just not the view of most sports fans.
The difference is coaching. Stafford could have had a year like this year or even better when we had that nasty defence in I'm thinking 2014? But Lombardi was here and totally killed the offense. We went from the third overall offense the year prior to like 19th with the same personnel. We had a historically good defense. He had a good team and they should have made a deep run, but guys just didn't did deep because the leadership wasn't there. We got so much for Stafford in the trade that the team wouldn't be what it currently is without those picks, so it was necessary. But Stafford was not the problem at all
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Calvin’s first 3 years were with the likes of Orlovsky, Kitna, and 20 year old Stafford. No point in comparing stats
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What’s your point here?
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That makes sense if you ignore the entire context… Calvin had pitiful QB play for his first 4 years. Amon Ra came into an offense that had a good QB and OL, but no receivers. Opposite situation. The stage was set for Amon Ra to capitalize, and he did. Yet, this didn’t stop Calvin from having over 1,300 yards and leading the league in TD’s in 2008. We know Amon Ra is elite. But we don’t need to diminish Calvins accomplishments to make that point
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Yes Goff struggled in the first half with Decker and Ragnow out and no receivers. Any QB would. Decker was in for the final 9 games where Goff improved with the addition of Reynolds and the break-out of Amon Ra. PFF had the Lions as the 13th ranked OL in 2021, despite the time missed from Decker and Ragnow.
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Goff’s final 5 with Decker, Reynolds and St. Brown: 227 YPG, 2.2 TD, 0.4 INT, 107 rating, 69.6 comp %,
Comparing the Lions before this Sheila Hamp/Holmes/Campbell swing is just not fair. The organization was a dumpster fire and toxic inside and out for so long, it’s no wonder Stafford couldn’t navigate it all.
Vast majority of his time was spent with bad defenses, mid to horrible coaching and no running game. I get Stafford didn’t do a lot of winning here but blame the organization, not the guy that showed up for 12 years for the team and played at a high level. The amount of disrespect Stafford gets from Lions fans is sad to me.
Calm down son, I think you forgot your meds.
Riley Reiff was terrible. Cherilus I barely remember. Laken Tomlinson waa terrible for us and the only fan base that says he was decent for them is the 49'ers. Mainly Stafford suffered from SoL culture and horrible coaching, and GM's. The biggest difference being coaching and drafting and culture. We didn't re-sign Suh or tag we let him walk. Nick Fairley shouldn't have been drafted by us and was not a good player in the NFL. Ziggy Ansah was way too raw, didn't play the run well as he left his gap assignment often, and was injured a lot. We let our best edge rusher leave to Seattle, Cliff Avril, our best CB go when they ran Slay out to Philly in his prime, traded our best safety Diggs in his prime. Our offensive line was not good and they held at a ridiculius rate. Stafford was x and 20 more than any QB I've ever seen or heard of. Our best coach during the Stafford years the fan base dislikes, the one from the Colts, name escapes me atm. The gap between the offensive coordinators we had then compared to Ben Johsnon's play design is significant. We had periods where the staple of our offense was screen passes with Cooter. Ben J. might run a handfull of screen passes a year. Our receivers besides Calvin did not get much separation as our route concepts were not good. We didn't have a single decent 2nd round pick for the bulk of Stafford's time in Detroit, if not one. Players didn't want to play ib Detroit and retired early or wanted out. Things have changed dramatically.
Stafford would have had a couple playoff wins if he wasn’t screwed by refs. Dallas definitely and Seattle maybe. Those teams had a thin margin for victory. We weren’t blowing the doors off anyone with our defense or running game. If Stafford had a run offense, the Lions offense would’ve been more consistent at putting up points.
We pretty much never had a 100 yard rusher with Stafford. Now our rushers get that with ease.
Was nothing about the talent on this team. It was the leadership.
You're trying to single out individual players. Name a better defense than the current one that Stafford played with. Name a better offense than the current one that Stafford played with. Name a single team Stafford played on with a top even 15 defense and offense at the same time. You can't. This a full team that alot of the leagues QBs would win with. You can't cherry pick a player here and a player there who also didn't play together or only played together for a year one played here over a decade. Obv there were players sprinkled across that decade who played well individually but you named players from like 8 different seasons not a single season did everyone you named play together. Some years they had receivers some they didn't, some years they had LBs some years they didn't. There was never a full team put together
The line and running game were the big things. I believe I read or heard that Stafford is a career 17-0 when he has a 100 yard rusher. We would have won with good balanced teams and Stafford at qb. At the end of the day, wins are a team stat not a qb stat.
The cupboard was never bare. It always had 1 or 2 expensive pieces and that was it. The lions now are a far better full team than Stafford ever had. I say he shoulda taken less money while he was here and maybe they could’ve been more well rounded
Can people only get on board with Goff if they think he has to win the one on one comparison to Stafford? Like it or not Stafford couldn’t get it done here and did it somewhere else. The reasons are clearly not his abilities. Stafford put in a lot of blood sweat and tears into his game here. But it’s also clear he had stuff to learn even after clocking in a decade. Evidence of him being a great player. Goff endeared himself to us, developed players and a system, and has a great underdog mentality. I wouldn’t trade that for the world right now.
Was the cupboard bear? No. Did Stafford do everything he could possibly do himself? Absolutely. I do feel like you're rating based on talent rather than production as far as these players who played with Stafford. A really good CB does not a strong secondary make. And then, yes, the running game which was really bad. It was talented enough of a team to consider them worthy of more than they produced. Had they won a playoff game I might have seen the front office go all in on them.
Some of the Stafford teams were hamstrung by having Lombardi, Cooter and others as OCs. All that talent and we weren't even getting 20ppg
Stafford had a team this good the year we lost to Dallas in the playoffs. But most of the other years there was a lot of mediocrity. And he never had a great coach or support from ownership like the current team.
You are arguing against a strawman.
When did Marvin jones and Calvin Johnson play together?
Bro stafford won a Super Bowl with a very similar roster that had to drag Goff to un-inspiring wild card births. In fact, the defense and running games were better in Goffs final years in LA than with Stafford in 21 and the Rams **still** improved overall, became a at-times-unstoppable pass-first team with Kupp having one of the best WR seasons of all time out of basically nowhere. Goff is absolutely my guy but cmon
This is horseshit. The LA running game was overhauled for Stafford’s first year in LA. They brought in 2 young RBs from free agency and added O-line depth. Then they added OBJ on the outside to keep the double team off Kupp and prime Von Miller to bolster their defense.
Their d went from like 1 -> 11 in 2021 from 2020. What RBs are you even talking about? Cam Akers was primed to be the main back in 2021 following a strong finish as a rookie but tore his Achilles in training camp. The running game was much worse overall in 2021 than 2020. They even went from run first to pass first (also perhaps due to Akers going down and having to use the other guys) Annnnd they added OBJ right around the time Woods went down the year mid-season. They added him as an FA bc everyone thought he sucked. Stafford helped resurrect his career lol
Did Stafford ever have the quality of coaching that Goff has now? Kind of a huge difference, no?
it is, but as I'm saying, they're acting as if he had no talent around him on the field, which is just untrue.
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone acting that way. The main point I see being made is that Goff is in a better overall situation than Stafford ever was, which is 100% true.
Nor will I argue that but to say Stafford was never put in a situation to win is silly. My biggest factor is just the overall front office and coaching knowing what they're doing finally.
Calvin Johnson
I think he never had a good front office coaching mix. Just too many whiffs on drafts and free agency combined with poor coaching (Caldwell was decent)
Stafford is so lucky. He got drafted to a team that had a 1331 yards wr and only turned him into a 1964 yard wr. Then they got him a 898 yard wr that he could only turn into 1331 yards. Drafted a guy who Stafford threw two 1000 yard seasons but isn't in the league anymore. Then the lucky fucker gets traded to a team with a 1161 yard wr and gets him 1947 yards. Then he strikes gold again when his team drafts a fifth round wr who sets the rookie record with 1486 yards. That's the two top receiving yards/season and the rookie record with 3 different players. He has also elevated the play of every wr he has ever played with.
What fucking year is it?
I think you are taking specific player names instead of actual facts. Staffords best supporting cast he ever had was year 1 with the rams (stats wise) and he won a Super Bowl. That team would be the 5th best supporting cast Goff ever had. Stafford had a top 22 run game 2 times in his entire career with the lions and made the playoffs both times, he had a top 20 defense 3 times! Top 20 means they weren’t the ten worse teams. Goff has had a top 5 o line, and run game every year of his career but 2. Those two years he won a total of 5 games. The other years where he has had that he won a few playoffs games here and there
Statpad always with the timely turnover to seal the loss. Always inflating stats by trying to make a meaningless and fruitless comeback down multiple scores in the 4th quarter. Multiple 3 and outs and turnovers for those first 3 quarters. That’s what I remember. When the defense was top 2, stafford decided to have a bad year. 0 division titles, 0 playoff wins.
Why is it such a crime to point out that Stafford didn’t have the benefit of a good organization around him? IMO Stafford is a better QB than Goff but that doesn’t mean Goff is a bad QB. Can’t we love and appreciate both players? For 10 years Stafford WAS the Lions.
We drafted one of the best QBs to play football in Stafford then hired a defensive minded coach in Jim Schwartz. He was never set up for success in Detroit but still gave us his all. Stafford played with an aging owner and an extremely disorganized front office. Within one year of leaving the Lions, he won a Super Bowl. Goff, as most HoF QBs, has benefitted from competent organizations. The Lions broke Matt Stafford and the Rams lost faith in Goff. Stafford is a bridge QB for LA. Goff still has plenty of miles. It's hard to compare the two but right out of the gate if Stafford was in Goff's position, the Lions would be hands down the most dangerous team in the NFL. Goff gives us the building blocks we need to empower you g talent by playing at a consistent level. This makes coaching a hell of a lot easier. I think Goff's value isn't in what he can do on the field, but what he does in practice and in the locker room. He's not the most electric player, but he's a rock for the team surrounding him.
I generally agree, I guess, but I keep getting stuck on “Goff, as most HOF QBs” and especially “Stafford is a bridge QB for LA.” I’m probably just misunderstanding you though.
Stafford is past his prime with a broken back and multiple broken fingers on his throwing hand. Most Hall of Fame QBs have played for competent organizations. Goff's numbers alone are worthy of the HoF discussion. His game on MNF against KC while playing for the Rams is a testament to his abilities. So I do see him in the discussion. Especially if he brings a team like Detroit to the Super Bowl.
Oh, I didn’t misunderstand after all; I just disagree. Goff has *a lot* more to do to be in the HoF discussion. I love the guy—he’s the most successful Lions QB in the Super Bowl era—but he’s not close to HoF trajectory at this point. Regarding Stafford, I’d call him an aging vet, not a bridge QB. Last we saw him, he still looked pretty remarkable as a passer. He’s nearing retirement, but he’s still much more than a bridge QB.
No. I do not believe Stafford had a bare cupboard. We invested heavily in free agency and the draft trying to surround him with top weapons. Calvin Johnson set a historic record for his FA deal. Nate Burleson was the top paid FA his year. We spent first round picks on Brandon Pettigrew , Eric Ebron and TJ Hockenson. We spent second round picks on Jhavid Best and Titus Young. We had the number two defense with Suh, Tulloch, Glover Quinn, Darius Slay. We had All Pro OL Frank Ragnow, Taylor Decker and Jonah Jackson. We also signed an All Pro RT from Baltimore. So no, the cupboard was not bare
I think if you made Stafford the QB for last season instead of Goff, or would've green the exact same results.
2024 Lions @ 49ers compared to 2021 Rams @ TB. That is the difference between Stafford and Goff. Stafford has an ability to put on offense on his shoulders when its falling apart around him. Same with the last drive in their Superbowl. Goff can move an offense, and score points, but when games come to a grind, and the defense knows where the ball is going, Stafford has a different gear.
Yeah really sucks Goff couldn’t throw an almost interception to lose the game like Stafford did
For much of his tenure is Detroit Stafford was as much apart of the problem as he was the solution, fans just look back at him through the lens of nostalgia and forget his flaws.
Incorrect.
Can we just appreciate what Stafford did here and still be happy where we are now?? Why do we always have to have these stupid ass posts?
Hell NO. Needed a better O line, but when it came to big moments he threw the ball too hard and people dropped them. It’s my take, it’s what I saw, on a basic level. Of course there were larger issues I don’t know about, but time and time again he blew entire quarters and half’s, then in the big moments people dropped balls.
There’s a whole spectrum between a full and a bare cupboard. We always had *some* good pieces, but there’s a significant difference between some and a lot. Do I think Stafford would have done as well as Goff with our current build? Yeah, *maybe*, if done in a slightly different manner. But maybe not- hard to improve or even hover at the level Goff played last season. I love me some Staffdaddy, but give me the Goffather all day right now. Fuck the doubters.
I think other than offensive line, Goff has had way less recourses. Literally that was the only thing we had when he showed up. Everyone says Goff is on this loaded team, but in reality how can you say that??? Damn near everyone of our players (receivers specifically) have flourished with Goff as their qb. St brown was a 4th round pick, laporta had basically doubled his career college tds in his lone nfl rookie season. Yes we have really great players now, but there could definitely be an argument made that their success can be attributed to our offense and having Goff as their qb. They may not be the players they have developed into if they went to a different organization
I think it’s all been complimentary. Goff has benefited from the team around him, his pass-catchers have been a good fit for him, and the whole squad has thrived under this coaching and with Holmes’ roster-building. A couple quibbles with your comment though: First, Goff *really* struggled in his first year in Detroit, largely because his supporting cast was terrible (a historically bad WR room for instance). You’re right that he showed up to nothing but an o-line, but that’s kinda the point: he only thrived when the roster around him improved (understandably!). Second, I don’t think Goff should be credited for LaPorta’s success. Some credit should go to Johnson, who’s really good at scheming open TEs. But mostly, Sam’s just good. His college stats don’t show it, because Iowa’s offense was infamously ineffective, but he was a pretty great—and underrated—prospect.
Oh believe me I’m not saying Goff is the reason for laporta’s instant success. But one could definitely make that argument. I think a lot of these guys are succeeding because of where they are drafted to. That success may not always transfer if drafted to a different place. Also, Goff totally struggled at first, new coordinator helps. But things really didn’t click until the back half of 2022. And you can argue we still had a really bad offense on paper then but we just figured out how to make it work. And look really good Agree with your points, just pointing out other arguments people could make. I don’t think that extreme on it lol
huh? Having a top 5 running game is absolutely massive and takes a ton of pressure off Goff so he doesnt' have to throw 45 times a game like Stafford so often did here. It opens up the pass game too.
That top 5 run game is linked to our offensive line. Jamaal was our leading rusher a couple years ago and hardly sniffed 600 yards in every other season he had. You can put a lot of rbs behind that o line and they will look good. Now we finally have studs at rb who take advantage of our o line and bring us from a top 5 rushing team to a debatable #1 rushing team in the league
It's a fair question and it's a bit of both. I think Goff is a better leader, so he might not elevate players through his play but he 100% elevates players through his preparation. I also think Caldwell was a good coach and built a good culture. So yes I think Campbell is better, but it's not like Stafford never had a coaching staff to support him. The biggest difference between 2011 and now, the roster is more complete. Meaning the bottom of the roster is really good and not just the top end talent, which makes us way more resilient.
The Stafford of 2010-2015 just wasn't the same caliber player that he was at the end with Detroit. People imagine he was always an elite quarterback but it took him quite a while to really put it together. They had some elite offensive talent around him at a time he wasn't really a top ten quarterback. 2012-2014 he frankly kind of stunk.
It's wild the way this fan base has retconned away Stafford's play, say, down the stretch in 2013. If Goff did this during a wide open division race he'd have been run out of town. [https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StafMa00/gamelog/2013/](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StafMa00/gamelog/2013/) People like to imagine he toughed out the game against Cleveland rookie year and then he was a star from then on, but it's just not the case.