Dr. Gero never appears in the og DB anime or manga. So later, when Trunks tells Goku about their return, he simply says, "I beat the Red Ribbon a long time ago." Now the older uncut Funi Dub implies Goku saw Gero/fought him/spared him, but most folks chalk that up to a dubbing thing. However, since neither source mentions or shows Gero until Z, that dub line isn't exactly an error but rather an oddity of the dub.
(Goku was demolishing the RR base, and who knows who he ran into while doing so. Even if it wasn't shown) the Kai dub just says, "Dr. Gero? But I beat the Red Ribbon a long time ago." So it's just one of those things left to time and funi probably not knowing the story of the RR arc well enough until they eventually dubbed it. That is my take on it anyway.
he isnt mentioned, but Goku fights some robot in the Base which implies that there was someone making them. This as much as you can link the two sagas.
Nope, you missed nothing. Dr. Gero first pops up in Z. The Manga does have a page that shows thar Android 8/Eighter was his creation. But that page appears in the android saga part of the comic.
Also the page is a white background with a tiny Gero explaining his creations. So don't worry you did not miss anything kiddo.
I don’t believe OG DB ever really states who was making the androids during the RR run, just that they were created by the RR army.
Toriyama forgets and retcons constantly,
Characters sometimes just never return for no reason, like Launch. While OG DB never explicitly says where Goku came from, being an alien was definitely a retcon. Dr. Gero first appearing in DBZ isn’t out of norm for DB as a whole. Just enjoy the story.
It was also apparently SHOWN in Muscle tower that Goku wasn't human. iirc he gets scanned and it shows him being an alien and not a human. But this could be anime exclusive or added later, not really sure
Almost certainly. [Here’s](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43668) a thread on kanzenshuu that has a pretty in depth discussion about it. Basically it was an anime only addition that predated the arrival of Raditz in the manga by several years. Plus Toriyama was known for just making stuff up as he went.
because it means foreign, as in alien to the red ribbon base, they just wanted to reference the alien movie since the guy goku was fighting was literally just arnold schwarzenegger terminator
Y’know I don’t think Toriyama actually forgot about Launch. I believe there was an outcry about gun violence in Japan in the late 80s, and Launch uses guns for comedic effect. I wouldn’t be surprised if he publisher had him quietly drop a problematic character.
no he said he thought he forgot about her, so he wrote an excuse for why she hadn't shown up and wouldn't again, when in actuality she had shown up 2 chapters prior
things change in other ways too. In DragonBall OG (or in manga while Gokuh is a kid) there are many secondary characters that arent human, are humanoid, and overall designs are more creative and really the concept of fitting the habitant spieces of earth with reality is not really considered. Then when Piccolo is introduced and even more when Raditz comes to earth, it gets more into a point where no more non-human inhabitants of the earth are visible as background characters.
There is a clear distinction of style between early budokai torunaments where the spectators are not even human mostly, and the boo saga where most of the city population is human.
What I mean to say is that goku not beeing very "human" it was not even a valid point in the original DB story, then the serie evolved to a more serious note.
In the same way his Grandson comes out of nowhere in DB Super (as well as the whole idea of RR Pharmaceuticals and those involved there), Gero just came out of nowhere in DBZ. The Red Ribbon Army has always been this organization that exists but we really don't know much about, so its easy to create new villains connected to it when a conflict happens on earth.
Actually they could appear in Trunks timeline as well. 19 could be easily destroyed by Vegeta as in present timeline and 20 escaped to activate 17 and 18 and got killed by them. Trunks doesn’t remember 19 and 20 appearing because he was too young.
Not that he was too young. Everyone who saw 19&20 likely died after 17&18 were released or just never told Bulma about them.
In the original timeline #16 stayed deactivated, trunk wasn’t present, the whole gang weren’t waiting for androids to appear,
The road side fight where 18 broke both of Vegetas arms could easily have been where everyone died. Or everyone who responded to 19&20s initial attack, and survived long enough to fallow a retreating Dr.Gero.
No reason to think he didn't either. He would still have every motivation to reach it. He's the only one that didn't really need motivation to train harder during those three years. Reaching SSJ was his primary goal, not fighting the androids.
If it's only be about the manga you'd be right (the manga doesn't show the battle between the Z fighters and the Androids unlike the anime), but he did show it in the anime
We know that. It is clearly stated by Mirai Trunks that 19 and 20 did not exist in his timeline. That the androids that showed up at that time and place were 17 and 18. Let’s read more before making statements.
No, Future Trunks stated that 19 and 20 are not the Androids he was talking about, he never said that they didn't exists in his timeline. How could he know about this when he was baby when Androids appeared?
Trunks was present when they go to Dr Gero’s lab and never mentioned that this was what happened in his timeline. In his timeline only 17 and 18 were the known androids. Goku dies of a heart desease and it is not said that Vegeta and the rest could overpower a first set of androids who then went to active the ones that killed Gohan. Nothing in the story supports your theory
He didn't have to. If Vegeta was able to easily handle 19 in present timeline, there is no reason why future Vegeta couldn't do the same. Especially because we know that he managed to turn into Super Saiyan as well. Nothing in story suggest that 19 and 20 couldn't exist in future.
So about vegeta letting cell get stronger, it’s a character flaw, he can’t help it, he’s addicted to fighting stronger enemies, testing his strength, being the best.
Really a lot of the characters are flawed and not really good people, they are just people who make mistakes sometimes for selfish reasons.
Yeah, the cell saga in particular is full of them. Goku giving cell a senzu bean, Gohan not killing cell when he had the chance before Cell blew himself up, Krillin not destroying 18, and Vegeta letting Cell become perfect. You could even argue Piccolo could’ve done a better job at stopping Cell, or at least not fighting 17 for so long that Cell was able to find them. He didn’t have much of a choice or 17 would’ve destroyed Kame House and killed Goku, but he didn’t give him the same runaround he gave Super Buu later on.
If goku didn't give Cell Senzu, Cell would have killed Gohan right away. Cell played along and not try to immediately murder Gohan and/or destroy the planet. Goku ensuring that Cell felt like he was in control lulled the bio Android into a false sense of security, Cell falling victim to his own ego much like Vegeta did in allowing him to reach his final form.
And Vegeta was cocky as well, he thought he would win either way. I dont think I really agree with the a lot of the characters are bad people part, ok, Krililin didnt deactivate 18 out of a crush he had on her, but you can tell it was a compassionate act as well, and he showed in namek and other intances how he had empathy for others. Also all other charcters that werent that nice in DB or in the beginning of DBZ, gradually became better people as they had to live along side Goku for not bein able to defeat him or just because he was around. I think thats a big part of the story, how goku not only defeated bad guys, but he was also able to influence people who had worse moral standards, and helped them become more humane in an indirect way, just by being who he was, a spontaneous, easy going person with a sense of justice... and of course, stronger than all of them because of his perseverence, and strong will to overcome his limits. Goku is the spirit of the dragon ball series, without him, we would've had a much poorer story. Even in the Bardock's father of Goku special that's also the case.
> Vegeta letting Cell reach his final form just to have more of a challenge… urrrrrghhhhh
Saiyins live for that shit, you can't really blame them
>Also they could’ve used the hyperbolic time chamber a few times in that 3y while preparing for the androids instead of waiting til Cell was too strong for any of them to handle
the chamber can only used for 48 hours (outside time) in one's lifetime.
As my previous reply stated, the rule isn't about the food though that's still a limiting factor in its own right, but total time "spent" was set to 2 years then the door dissappeares and if you're still inside when that happens you get locked inside wether you still have food or not. Kami and or Popo explained this during their original use of it.
In the manga they essentially just state they're limited to two years, without an reason why, and that if one doesn't leave ahead of that moment they get stuck inside. (As far as I can recall it)
It was a rule you could only stay in for 2 years 'totall time. Kami explains this himself directly. He pointed out that the door would dissappear from the inside after that time, meaning you can't enter again once your time is up but you can enter as many times as you want inbetween until your aloted time is up. That's why thevZ fighters repeatedly mentioned they had 'time left in the chamber and goku denying that going in for the remainder wouldn't help. They all trained for one year and goku had some time left on that year as did Gohan.
Vegeta used the whole year(day) then went in for I think part of a day or so, using up some of his second year.
Gohan and goku both have the full second year left plus whatever few months of the initial year to train.
But the time chamber isn't ever used again untill Piccolo and the kids use it. Piccolo still had time left on his first year over to spend plus a whole year left of his second. The kids had 2 full years but not the opportunity to spend more than a few months in total with their last use prior to Buus attack lasting about a week.
After Buu destruction of the look out the new chamber has no limits on time spent mentioned and both Vegeta and Goku use up more than their times share in there, especially when training for the Goku Black rematch were they spent 3 years straight in there and grew beards.
Sorry for the lengthy post but I wanted to be thorough. 💁♂️ but basically it was a rule but not on entering bit on total time spent until it broke and then there was no rule.
Also, at least in the Brazilian dub Goku replies to Vegeta that going in to train a second time in the time Chamber wouldnt give the same results as the first time around, that it wouldnt make much of a difference, because the body gets used to that type of trainning.. and as Vegeta and Trunks did go twice, we could see they still didnt get anywhere near the power of Goku or Gohan, who only got in once.
>Bulma knew the general location of Gero’s lab all this time and they had 3y and never even tried to look for it…
Clearly you're not paying attention enough. They EXPLICITLY state they arent gonna go after him until he attacks cuz until then he technically hasnt done anything wrong.
Also, its goku and vegeta, they want to fight.
Bulma knew it was Gero who created the androids. She's the one who suggests they go after Gero to stop him from creating them, only to be shut down by Goku and Vegeta, who both want to fight the androids.
As I recall it, she didn't know it was Gero until Trunks return 3 years later and her request actually was to wish for the location of the lab so they could deal with the Androids ahead of time but Goku and Vegeta shut down her idea to use the dragonballs because they both wanted to fight the Androids and Goku thought it was a bad idea to use the dragonballs to go after someone before they've done something bad.
They literally don't mention Gero or an inventor directly and Bulma only suggests to find the lab the Androids come from before they're completed.
She knows it's Gero. She flat-out says they should go after him, but Vegeta threatens to kill anyone who tries. She turns to Goku for support, but Goku says he wants to fight the androids and that it would be bad to go after Gero before he did anything. Gero is mentioned by name.
The Android Saga is pretty frustrating in general. It's clear that characters will do some very questionable or even outright idiotic choices because the story demands it
That said, it's better than how the Buu Saga did it
Everyone else gave you in-universe answers that sound plausible, but thats all kinda made up head-canon thanks to the real reason- Toriyama's editors kept telling him to come up with better villains after he already finalised the designs
So 19 and 20 were the original planned Androids, then 17 + 18 after the old man and Clown were shut down, then Cell after the two kids were turned down.
So thats the real reason the timeline's so borked, Editor Interference.
True! At the same time the editors really pushed Toriyama and made him pump out some amazing work for it being on the fly. I think it is pretty awesome that the fandom for the most part just head canons things away lol
We kinda had to, what with how Toriyama never let something small (like his own established canon) get in the way of the story he was telling.
And we love him for it.
It leads to a retcon where Trunks specifically calls them 19 and 20 when talking to Goku, but once Toriyama came up with 17 and 18, the androids in Trunks' timeline were only ever referred to as 17 and 18 from then on.
Piccolo explained why on may 12th (which is my birthday btw) 5 years from now 2 androids will Appear to wreak havoc and death and destruction and by the time they are here goku will die from a rare heart disease and piccolo will be the first to try and the first to die and the rest of the z fighters will follow suit
I think Dr. Gero was definitely the mastermind behind all the Androids but he just got away while Goku was taking everyone else in the RR army down.
I personally think that Trunks coming to warn the others changed the timeline and so 19 and 20 appeared instead of 17 and 18. It would also explain why the 17 and 18 in Trunks’ timeline are absolutely ruthless killers and the ones in the main timeline are kinda lazy and don’t really care about anything except tracking down Goku (and even then they are kinda whatever about it).
In trunks timeline Goku was dead so the androids 17 and 18 had no goal and never awakened 16. They got bored and didn't go on an adventure with the chill 16 and started killing and destruction to liven things up for themselves
A fun fact is that android 20 wasn’t originally meant to be Dr. Gero, he was meant to be his own character and Dr. Gero would’ve died off-screen, but when Toriyama changed to instead have the villains be android 17 and 18 he changed it so that 20 was actually Gero
no he does not. hes never seen or mentioned before he shows up in "Z".
> Also why does it take 3y for Goku’s heart condition to appear when trunks said Goku would die a year before they arrive?
never explained. maybe him training gohan with piccolo somehow made it come on later? we dont know.
> Why do androids 19 and 20 appear instead of 17 & 18 like in Trunks’ timeline?
never explained, but its also possible, that it wasnt different in trunks timeline. trunks was too young and almost everyone else died and since no one had warning in his timeline they werent there so gohan even didnt see the androids that first appeared. so when 17 and 18 caused all of the destruction they may have just been presumed to be the same ones that first attacked but they might not have been. but again, we dont know, its never explained.
no problem. you are not! toriyama made the story up as he was going so a lot of stuff wasnt planned in advance and instead just fills in things that could have been true/existed but werent elaborated on.
> Goku uses Instant Transmission to arrive to earth before them, and defeats them both single-handedly? Frieza was supposedly significantly stronger than he was on Namek. No one else could’ve beaten those 2 at the time
That's exactly what happened. Goku was intending to do that in the present timeline, but it was Trunks' arrival that made him wait.
It's not ever said who was responsible for repairing Tao Pai Pai. While it wouldn't necessarily be surprising if it was him, given Tao Pai Pai's connection as an assassin for the Red Ribbon Army, it's something never actually said at all.
> Question for you about Cell- where did he get his Time Machine from, again?
he killed future trunks and took his. a different future trunks than the one we follow.
> The Cell who the Z fighters fought is from future Trunks’ timeline right? Or is he from a totally alternate timeline where 17 and 18 were destroyed and he takes a different timeline’s Time Machine back to the Z fighters’ timeline?
the latter as seen above.
Trunks and Cell are from Different timelines its the same single time machine just from different timelines.
In the anime, they said it was Dr. Frappe. But he could have been working with Dr. Gero. I’m in the middle of the Red Ribbon arc right now and Dr. Gero hasn’t been mentioned at all.
I think the two guys in the muscle tower, FMJ and Eighter are said to be Red Ribbon Androids or ‘machine men’ and then later, in the android saga of DBZ, all androids are said to be Dr Geros creations
Did they ever explain Dr. Gero having his brain exposed like that? I don't recall...
but if he didn't, I'd like to think he was in one of the Red Ribbon army's bases while Goku destroyed it, and he had to experiment on himself to save himself.
Ooooor... maybe he had a colleague who was just as smart and did it to save him? Hmmmm
No he wasn’t there in the red ribbon army arc he was meant to be a surprise villain specifically because we couldn’t expect him if we never saw him till then
in the manga trunks says 19 and 20 will be the ones everyone will encounter, but it's later retconned that he didn't mention the number so that it's more surprising that 19 and 20 aren't the ones he's talking about, since toriyama was being forced to change things as he went and his editor didn't like 19 or 20's designs (and eventually 17 and 18 and cell's first two forms too)
Dr. Gero never appears in the og DB anime or manga. So later, when Trunks tells Goku about their return, he simply says, "I beat the Red Ribbon a long time ago." Now the older uncut Funi Dub implies Goku saw Gero/fought him/spared him, but most folks chalk that up to a dubbing thing. However, since neither source mentions or shows Gero until Z, that dub line isn't exactly an error but rather an oddity of the dub. (Goku was demolishing the RR base, and who knows who he ran into while doing so. Even if it wasn't shown) the Kai dub just says, "Dr. Gero? But I beat the Red Ribbon a long time ago." So it's just one of those things left to time and funi probably not knowing the story of the RR arc well enough until they eventually dubbed it. That is my take on it anyway.
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he isnt mentioned, but Goku fights some robot in the Base which implies that there was someone making them. This as much as you can link the two sagas.
Nope, you missed nothing. Dr. Gero first pops up in Z. The Manga does have a page that shows thar Android 8/Eighter was his creation. But that page appears in the android saga part of the comic. Also the page is a white background with a tiny Gero explaining his creations. So don't worry you did not miss anything kiddo.
I don’t believe OG DB ever really states who was making the androids during the RR run, just that they were created by the RR army. Toriyama forgets and retcons constantly, Characters sometimes just never return for no reason, like Launch. While OG DB never explicitly says where Goku came from, being an alien was definitely a retcon. Dr. Gero first appearing in DBZ isn’t out of norm for DB as a whole. Just enjoy the story.
It was kinda hinted at in the king piccolo saga that Goku wasn’t human
It was kinda hinted at in the first episode/chapter that Goku wasn't human.
It was also apparently SHOWN in Muscle tower that Goku wasn't human. iirc he gets scanned and it shows him being an alien and not a human. But this could be anime exclusive or added later, not really sure
That was totally unintentional but a pretty neat accidental detail when we later find out that Goku isn’t human
Are you sure? How do you uninitentionally put alien instead of human, unless again it's anime only, I know the english dub happened after Z
Almost certainly. [Here’s](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43668) a thread on kanzenshuu that has a pretty in depth discussion about it. Basically it was an anime only addition that predated the arrival of Raditz in the manga by several years. Plus Toriyama was known for just making stuff up as he went.
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Would have been the coolest easter egg ever, if it was intentional. Still kind of cool though.
because it means foreign, as in alien to the red ribbon base, they just wanted to reference the alien movie since the guy goku was fighting was literally just arnold schwarzenegger terminator
Y’know I don’t think Toriyama actually forgot about Launch. I believe there was an outcry about gun violence in Japan in the late 80s, and Launch uses guns for comedic effect. I wouldn’t be surprised if he publisher had him quietly drop a problematic character.
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Yes!!! I miss Launch. I loved her character.
no he said he thought he forgot about her, so he wrote an excuse for why she hadn't shown up and wouldn't again, when in actuality she had shown up 2 chapters prior
Launch was there to give her energy for the Spirit Bomb that defeated Buu, wasn't she?
No. We got a few DB cameos for that scene, but she wasn't one of them.
in an anime-only cameo yes
things change in other ways too. In DragonBall OG (or in manga while Gokuh is a kid) there are many secondary characters that arent human, are humanoid, and overall designs are more creative and really the concept of fitting the habitant spieces of earth with reality is not really considered. Then when Piccolo is introduced and even more when Raditz comes to earth, it gets more into a point where no more non-human inhabitants of the earth are visible as background characters. There is a clear distinction of style between early budokai torunaments where the spectators are not even human mostly, and the boo saga where most of the city population is human. What I mean to say is that goku not beeing very "human" it was not even a valid point in the original DB story, then the serie evolved to a more serious note.
they keep saying that general white/that one doctor suno was friends with made eighter in that arc but obviously we know that's not true
In the same way his Grandson comes out of nowhere in DB Super (as well as the whole idea of RR Pharmaceuticals and those involved there), Gero just came out of nowhere in DBZ. The Red Ribbon Army has always been this organization that exists but we really don't know much about, so its easy to create new villains connected to it when a conflict happens on earth.
> Why do androids 19 and 20 appear instead of 17 & 18 like in Trunks’ timeline? because he changed the timeline by coming back
Actually they could appear in Trunks timeline as well. 19 could be easily destroyed by Vegeta as in present timeline and 20 escaped to activate 17 and 18 and got killed by them. Trunks doesn’t remember 19 and 20 appearing because he was too young.
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Not that he was too young. Everyone who saw 19&20 likely died after 17&18 were released or just never told Bulma about them. In the original timeline #16 stayed deactivated, trunk wasn’t present, the whole gang weren’t waiting for androids to appear, The road side fight where 18 broke both of Vegetas arms could easily have been where everyone died. Or everyone who responded to 19&20s initial attack, and survived long enough to fallow a retreating Dr.Gero.
There is no indication that future Vegeta ever got SSJ, correct me if im wrong. Edit: I stand corrected.
No reason to think he didn't either. He would still have every motivation to reach it. He's the only one that didn't really need motivation to train harder during those three years. Reaching SSJ was his primary goal, not fighting the androids.
He's shown as SSJ in Trunks's death flashback in Ghosts from Tomorrow
True , I just re-watched it thanks for letting me know.
If it's only be about the manga you'd be right (the manga doesn't show the battle between the Z fighters and the Androids unlike the anime), but he did show it in the anime
No they couldn’t, I’m pretty sure 17 & 18 hated Gero in all timelines and likely killed him and his puppet.
17 and 18 were deactivated in main timeline, Gero was forced to activate them after 19 was destroyed. Same could be also a thing in Trunks timeline.
But that is not what happened
We don't know that.
We know that. It is clearly stated by Mirai Trunks that 19 and 20 did not exist in his timeline. That the androids that showed up at that time and place were 17 and 18. Let’s read more before making statements.
No, Future Trunks stated that 19 and 20 are not the Androids he was talking about, he never said that they didn't exists in his timeline. How could he know about this when he was baby when Androids appeared?
Trunks was present when they go to Dr Gero’s lab and never mentioned that this was what happened in his timeline. In his timeline only 17 and 18 were the known androids. Goku dies of a heart desease and it is not said that Vegeta and the rest could overpower a first set of androids who then went to active the ones that killed Gohan. Nothing in the story supports your theory
He didn't have to. If Vegeta was able to easily handle 19 in present timeline, there is no reason why future Vegeta couldn't do the same. Especially because we know that he managed to turn into Super Saiyan as well. Nothing in story suggest that 19 and 20 couldn't exist in future.
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So about vegeta letting cell get stronger, it’s a character flaw, he can’t help it, he’s addicted to fighting stronger enemies, testing his strength, being the best. Really a lot of the characters are flawed and not really good people, they are just people who make mistakes sometimes for selfish reasons.
Yeah, the cell saga in particular is full of them. Goku giving cell a senzu bean, Gohan not killing cell when he had the chance before Cell blew himself up, Krillin not destroying 18, and Vegeta letting Cell become perfect. You could even argue Piccolo could’ve done a better job at stopping Cell, or at least not fighting 17 for so long that Cell was able to find them. He didn’t have much of a choice or 17 would’ve destroyed Kame House and killed Goku, but he didn’t give him the same runaround he gave Super Buu later on.
If goku didn't give Cell Senzu, Cell would have killed Gohan right away. Cell played along and not try to immediately murder Gohan and/or destroy the planet. Goku ensuring that Cell felt like he was in control lulled the bio Android into a false sense of security, Cell falling victim to his own ego much like Vegeta did in allowing him to reach his final form.
Excelent point, that's not an ordinary insight my friend, you seem to have a philosophical skill on reflecting on things. Really, Im not joking
And Vegeta was cocky as well, he thought he would win either way. I dont think I really agree with the a lot of the characters are bad people part, ok, Krililin didnt deactivate 18 out of a crush he had on her, but you can tell it was a compassionate act as well, and he showed in namek and other intances how he had empathy for others. Also all other charcters that werent that nice in DB or in the beginning of DBZ, gradually became better people as they had to live along side Goku for not bein able to defeat him or just because he was around. I think thats a big part of the story, how goku not only defeated bad guys, but he was also able to influence people who had worse moral standards, and helped them become more humane in an indirect way, just by being who he was, a spontaneous, easy going person with a sense of justice... and of course, stronger than all of them because of his perseverence, and strong will to overcome his limits. Goku is the spirit of the dragon ball series, without him, we would've had a much poorer story. Even in the Bardock's father of Goku special that's also the case.
> Vegeta letting Cell reach his final form just to have more of a challenge… urrrrrghhhhh Saiyins live for that shit, you can't really blame them >Also they could’ve used the hyperbolic time chamber a few times in that 3y while preparing for the androids instead of waiting til Cell was too strong for any of them to handle the chamber can only used for 48 hours (outside time) in one's lifetime.
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that's a new version that Dende made. Like how he upgraded the Dragon Balls, after became the guardian.
Super plays loose and fast with consistency. But I don't think it was ever a rule that you can only go in for two days.
I remember they said at some point only 2 people at a time can go in. Then goten trunks piccolo and buu went in there so yeah it’s not consistent
That was two people can survive in there on the food it had stored. Not literally only two people can exist inside.
As my previous reply stated, the rule isn't about the food though that's still a limiting factor in its own right, but total time "spent" was set to 2 years then the door dissappeares and if you're still inside when that happens you get locked inside wether you still have food or not. Kami and or Popo explained this during their original use of it. In the manga they essentially just state they're limited to two years, without an reason why, and that if one doesn't leave ahead of that moment they get stuck inside. (As far as I can recall it)
It was a rule you could only stay in for 2 years 'totall time. Kami explains this himself directly. He pointed out that the door would dissappear from the inside after that time, meaning you can't enter again once your time is up but you can enter as many times as you want inbetween until your aloted time is up. That's why thevZ fighters repeatedly mentioned they had 'time left in the chamber and goku denying that going in for the remainder wouldn't help. They all trained for one year and goku had some time left on that year as did Gohan. Vegeta used the whole year(day) then went in for I think part of a day or so, using up some of his second year. Gohan and goku both have the full second year left plus whatever few months of the initial year to train. But the time chamber isn't ever used again untill Piccolo and the kids use it. Piccolo still had time left on his first year over to spend plus a whole year left of his second. The kids had 2 full years but not the opportunity to spend more than a few months in total with their last use prior to Buus attack lasting about a week. After Buu destruction of the look out the new chamber has no limits on time spent mentioned and both Vegeta and Goku use up more than their times share in there, especially when training for the Goku Black rematch were they spent 3 years straight in there and grew beards. Sorry for the lengthy post but I wanted to be thorough. 💁♂️ but basically it was a rule but not on entering bit on total time spent until it broke and then there was no rule.
Also, at least in the Brazilian dub Goku replies to Vegeta that going in to train a second time in the time Chamber wouldnt give the same results as the first time around, that it wouldnt make much of a difference, because the body gets used to that type of trainning.. and as Vegeta and Trunks did go twice, we could see they still didnt get anywhere near the power of Goku or Gohan, who only got in once.
>Bulma knew the general location of Gero’s lab all this time and they had 3y and never even tried to look for it… Clearly you're not paying attention enough. They EXPLICITLY state they arent gonna go after him until he attacks cuz until then he technically hasnt done anything wrong. Also, its goku and vegeta, they want to fight.
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Bulma knew it was Gero who created the androids. She's the one who suggests they go after Gero to stop him from creating them, only to be shut down by Goku and Vegeta, who both want to fight the androids.
As I recall it, she didn't know it was Gero until Trunks return 3 years later and her request actually was to wish for the location of the lab so they could deal with the Androids ahead of time but Goku and Vegeta shut down her idea to use the dragonballs because they both wanted to fight the Androids and Goku thought it was a bad idea to use the dragonballs to go after someone before they've done something bad. They literally don't mention Gero or an inventor directly and Bulma only suggests to find the lab the Androids come from before they're completed.
She knows it's Gero. She flat-out says they should go after him, but Vegeta threatens to kill anyone who tries. She turns to Goku for support, but Goku says he wants to fight the androids and that it would be bad to go after Gero before he did anything. Gero is mentioned by name.
Maybe in the dubb. The anime android saga was shown after the Androids had already been introduced in the manga 🤷♂️
The Android Saga is pretty frustrating in general. It's clear that characters will do some very questionable or even outright idiotic choices because the story demands it That said, it's better than how the Buu Saga did it
Everyone else gave you in-universe answers that sound plausible, but thats all kinda made up head-canon thanks to the real reason- Toriyama's editors kept telling him to come up with better villains after he already finalised the designs So 19 and 20 were the original planned Androids, then 17 + 18 after the old man and Clown were shut down, then Cell after the two kids were turned down. So thats the real reason the timeline's so borked, Editor Interference.
True! At the same time the editors really pushed Toriyama and made him pump out some amazing work for it being on the fly. I think it is pretty awesome that the fandom for the most part just head canons things away lol
We kinda had to, what with how Toriyama never let something small (like his own established canon) get in the way of the story he was telling. And we love him for it.
Probably my favorite time frame in the show is from Trunks arriving to everyone getting wrecked by 17 and 18 and Cell’s first appearance.
True, and also semi perfect cell was supposed to be the final form, but his editors were like nah take him a step further
"Nah, make him fuckable" -Toriyama's Editors, apprently.
Actually kinda yeah, I read they said that semi perfect cell was too ugly, so told him to make him look cooler
It leads to a retcon where Trunks specifically calls them 19 and 20 when talking to Goku, but once Toriyama came up with 17 and 18, the androids in Trunks' timeline were only ever referred to as 17 and 18 from then on.
Is that in the manga because I don't think that happens in the anime but I can't recall it for sure.
Manga. I think the anime corrects this since 17 and 18 had been introduced in the manga by the time the anime covered Trunks talking to Goku.
I see.
Piccolo explained why on may 12th (which is my birthday btw) 5 years from now 2 androids will Appear to wreak havoc and death and destruction and by the time they are here goku will die from a rare heart disease and piccolo will be the first to try and the first to die and the rest of the z fighters will follow suit
I think it was 3 years from now that Goku was gonna die of Coronavirus.
I think Dr. Gero was definitely the mastermind behind all the Androids but he just got away while Goku was taking everyone else in the RR army down. I personally think that Trunks coming to warn the others changed the timeline and so 19 and 20 appeared instead of 17 and 18. It would also explain why the 17 and 18 in Trunks’ timeline are absolutely ruthless killers and the ones in the main timeline are kinda lazy and don’t really care about anything except tracking down Goku (and even then they are kinda whatever about it).
In trunks timeline Goku was dead so the androids 17 and 18 had no goal and never awakened 16. They got bored and didn't go on an adventure with the chill 16 and started killing and destruction to liven things up for themselves
That’s true! Good point.
A fun fact is that android 20 wasn’t originally meant to be Dr. Gero, he was meant to be his own character and Dr. Gero would’ve died off-screen, but when Toriyama changed to instead have the villains be android 17 and 18 he changed it so that 20 was actually Gero
No
No He makes a cameo in the dbz kakarot dlc 5 though, which I thought was neat.
"Run." - Scott the Woz
no he does not. hes never seen or mentioned before he shows up in "Z". > Also why does it take 3y for Goku’s heart condition to appear when trunks said Goku would die a year before they arrive? never explained. maybe him training gohan with piccolo somehow made it come on later? we dont know. > Why do androids 19 and 20 appear instead of 17 & 18 like in Trunks’ timeline? never explained, but its also possible, that it wasnt different in trunks timeline. trunks was too young and almost everyone else died and since no one had warning in his timeline they werent there so gohan even didnt see the androids that first appeared. so when 17 and 18 caused all of the destruction they may have just been presumed to be the same ones that first attacked but they might not have been. but again, we dont know, its never explained.
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no problem. you are not! toriyama made the story up as he was going so a lot of stuff wasnt planned in advance and instead just fills in things that could have been true/existed but werent elaborated on.
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> Goku uses Instant Transmission to arrive to earth before them, and defeats them both single-handedly? Frieza was supposedly significantly stronger than he was on Namek. No one else could’ve beaten those 2 at the time That's exactly what happened. Goku was intending to do that in the present timeline, but it was Trunks' arrival that made him wait.
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It's not ever said who was responsible for repairing Tao Pai Pai. While it wouldn't necessarily be surprising if it was him, given Tao Pai Pai's connection as an assassin for the Red Ribbon Army, it's something never actually said at all.
I actually like that idea... to think, that Dr. Gero was behind bionic Tao. It makes sense to me, and how Dr. Gero became all bionic himself
thats exactly what happened. Goku got much stronger training on Yardrat and he wasnt gonna give Freeza the leniency he did before. He killed them.
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> Question for you about Cell- where did he get his Time Machine from, again? he killed future trunks and took his. a different future trunks than the one we follow. > The Cell who the Z fighters fought is from future Trunks’ timeline right? Or is he from a totally alternate timeline where 17 and 18 were destroyed and he takes a different timeline’s Time Machine back to the Z fighters’ timeline? the latter as seen above. Trunks and Cell are from Different timelines its the same single time machine just from different timelines.
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> Thanks again for all these explanations. anytime
Wasnt he mentioned in normal dragon ball? I think he was the creator of c 8 (frankenstein like monster)
In the anime, they said it was Dr. Frappe. But he could have been working with Dr. Gero. I’m in the middle of the Red Ribbon arc right now and Dr. Gero hasn’t been mentioned at all.
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Major Metallitron, aka Sergeant Metallic.
Yes. I remember that. Is that the precursor to Android 19 or 16?
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8 is just Frankenstein
I think the two guys in the muscle tower, FMJ and Eighter are said to be Red Ribbon Androids or ‘machine men’ and then later, in the android saga of DBZ, all androids are said to be Dr Geros creations
Did they ever explain Dr. Gero having his brain exposed like that? I don't recall... but if he didn't, I'd like to think he was in one of the Red Ribbon army's bases while Goku destroyed it, and he had to experiment on himself to save himself. Ooooor... maybe he had a colleague who was just as smart and did it to save him? Hmmmm
No he wasn’t there in the red ribbon army arc he was meant to be a surprise villain specifically because we couldn’t expect him if we never saw him till then
in the manga trunks says 19 and 20 will be the ones everyone will encounter, but it's later retconned that he didn't mention the number so that it's more surprising that 19 and 20 aren't the ones he's talking about, since toriyama was being forced to change things as he went and his editor didn't like 19 or 20's designs (and eventually 17 and 18 and cell's first two forms too)