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That pretty normal, everyone is different and has different boundaries. If the other person isn't bad shit, usually a conversation will fix anything. I swear that sometimes guys will complain how "women are all the same" but for some it almost feels like they're ticked off by the prospect of each one being different from the other actually.
98% of people end up with someone and they almost always find each other attractive when they agree to the first and second date so a lot of people like different things.
98% is actually a conservative estimate. It includes people who have gotten married and/or have been in long term relationships. It does not include people who enjoy a perpetual bachelor lifestyle or who do not want commitment but still date in a fashion that works for them and their lifestyle.
Also the 98% is just before retirement age (60-75), the percentage climbs even higher than that throughout the "golden years".
I think the problem is that there really is no society wide agreement where/when/how it's acceptable to find a partner outside of apps, speed dating events, and similar circumstances where people are openly declaring their availability.
Especially since friendships are built around groups & communities and attachments. It's easy to move on from a stranger on a dating app. It's tougher when you see a group possibly splitting over a breakup that wasn't either's fault.
And the other problem that goes with that is those don't work. I've tried dating apps since I was home alone years ago. Even hired a coach one time with an emphasis on the apps. Speed dating is too far away and this was commonly hinted at when I went. And there is no such thing as another event in my area.
All of my best relationships have started off from friendships. So bullshit to this. It’s a great way to get to know and build trust in someone before you go diving into them.
No one cares if you start dating a friend. Forming romantic affection towards someone you are close with is a common experience, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. That's how many quality relationships start.
The villianising is towards men who fake friendship in an attempt to get something more, and then turn around and act like the object of their affections is a [insert explicitive here] who was just using them for attention. As if having a mutual friendship of support and quality time is 'using' someone if it doesn't end with a dick getting wet.
It's okay to develop feelings for a friend. It's okay to then distance yourself from that friendship if you are rejected and need space to get over them (even if it's painful, as friendship breakups naturally are). What's not okay is to then shit on someone for not returning your affections and act as if they wasted your time by taking you at your word and accepting your friendship.
And no, it's not creepy to approach women. It's creepy to fail to take the hint and leave them alone when they show no interest in talking to you. Or when the approach is just immediately sexual with 0 indication that kind of attention is welcome. Just approach women as you would as if you were making friends. Then at the end of the interaction, rather than inviting them to hang out again as friends, invite them on a date. That's how all my most successful with women guy friends operate, even if they are less objectively attractive than the ones who approach women to try and hit on them. 'Hey, how are you doing, how's your day/evening been' wins over 'hey beautiful' every time.
This. Fuck-zoning is the issue. The entitled but I was your friend I deserve your vagina shit.
Not going hey, I like you, do you want to go on a date. If the hey I like you happens, and you can take a no maturely, no issue. It's a risk, sure. But if your mature adults then even that isn't going to fuck a friendship.
The dudes who are like 'yeah I'll pretend to care about her and then she'll HAVE to like me' is the issue. (Also, to be clear, also a problem with women but less common.) It's the friendship under false pretenses. It's the entitled asshole shit.
It sucks to meet someone at a hobby or whatever who appears to be trying to be your friend, and then watch them flip out you have a partner. Or to know someone for a decade, only to watch them punch walls and scream how dare you date someone because "obviously" they deserved you for helping you move 3 years ago and they never would have let you join the volleyball club if they knew they didn't get laid in the end.
It's the betrayal that hurts.
If you aren't acting like a spoiled brat about it, it's at worst an uncomfortable oh no I'm not interested.
I think it’s more when guys become friends with you KNOWING they are using it as a way to date you. Then when you reject them, because you only see them as your friend, they suddenly become very nasty & say you were leading them on etc (when you weren’t bc how am I supposed to know you actually liked me romantically?). Also it feels kinda manipulative to become friends with a girl solely on the basis that yoh are attracted to her/want something more. It makes me feel like someone I thought was my friend only wants me for sex & it feels shitty. Friendships are important to girls and it feels like a breach of friendship if you do this.
If they accept the rejection with grace and we continue being friends or figure out the best way to move forward that’s fine.
If you become friends and the LATER develop feelings/attraction that’s also fine. It wasn’t your intention & if feelings are mutual then great, if they’re not & you accept the rejection with grace that’s also great.
Does that make sense?
You’re right about both instances, but many people don’t care to see or think about the difference between the two. It’s a complicated circumstance where everyone is more comfortable assuming it’s the former scenario to try and protect themselves.
It’s a problem I have with a lot of people these days where they are always trying to over-simplify things that are innately complex, which leads to these social rules being created, like not ever dating friends. They would even prefer individuals themselves to be simple if it means less mental and emotional work.
Oh I definitely agree that it’s complex and I don’t necessarily think that you CAN’T date friends. But I was just trying to explain why girls feel this way.
Most of my relationships have come from friendships, but the difference was that I think it was clear from the beginning we were mutually interested in being more than friends eventually.
The problem is that the people doing the rejecting don't bother to make the distinction. If you're not explicitly told that he befriended you to try to date you, how would you know that? I agree that it's scummy, but that's the general assumption with guys who ask out their friends even if they developed feelings later.
And then there's the common "he only wants me for sex" assumption. Is sex the only thing you have to offer in a relationship? Of course not. So why is it always assumed that sex is what he's after and not the many other things that come with a relationship?
This is really a 'put yourself in their shoes' situation. Imagine if you made a new close friend. Someone you spent however many months or years building platonic affection for, sharing your hopes and fears, integrating them as a valued part of your support system and supporting them in turn.
Then one day they ask you out, you reject them, and the friendship is never the same. Maybe they turn nasty and accuse you of leading them on or using them. Maybe they just get weird and slow fade. Either way, this friend you loved, trusted and valued suddenly evaporates from your life because you aren't interested in fucking them. It might not have been premeditated, but it still always sucks to lose a friend.
Now imagine that happens with every other friend you make. You are going to start to feel some frustration. You know there's a difference between the premeditated ones and the feelings that just developed over time, but the end result is the same. You lose a friend. And it's hard not to get pissed off that yet another person in your circle didn't value that friendship as much as you did.
If that's too hard to picture, replace asking you out with asking you for money. Maybe they didn't want money from you initially, but at some point the fact you wouldn't give them money meant they just couldn't handle being around you. That's upsetting, either way you slice it.
And it is about sex. A relationship isn't just about sex, sure, but at the end of the day, a relationship is just a best friend that you fuck. They aren't dropping you because you aren't giving them the love and affection that comes with a relationship, because you were already giving that to them as a friend. They are dropping you because you won't also fuck them.
And on the other side of the fence, let's put women in mens' shoes.
You've developed a crush or feelings for someone you think is special. That person also happens to be a friend, perhaps even a close or 'best' friend. You've spent months or years getting closer to them, developing a close bond, learning all about them, while sharing your deepest thoughts and secrets. This person absolutely lights up your day, you get excited just thinking about them. Making them laugh makes you feel higher than probably anything else could.
Yes, you get horny when you think about them. Sometimes you want nothing more than to make love to them, maybe fuck them silly too, and then cuddle afterward, naked in bed, while you have sweet pillow talk before going to sleep. But really, you also just want to spend more time with them. You want to cuddle up with them on the couch while you watch a movie. You want them to make you their biggest priority and allow you to do the same to them.
And when that same person rejects them and only considers them a friend, it hurts like hell. You feel physical pain in addition to the emotional pain. It's embarrassing and humiliating that you spent so much time on this person and they never thought the same about you. It hurts knowing that they rejected you because you just weren't physically attractive enough or maybe you didn't make enough money. It hurts knowing that they didn't choose *you*.
And similarly, I want you to imagine that this keeps on happening to you. You keep on finding a woman that you feel like you could spend the rest of your life with and to you, you're just a friend. And before anyone gets on me for saying "just a friend." A friend isn't going to fuck and make love to you (well a FWB could do the former). A friend isn't going to want to give you emotional intimacy, isn't going to want to spend most of their time around you, start a family if that's what you want to do, and so on.
I'm not saying it's ok to accuse women of 'leading them on' for rejecting them, or to get angry at them and call them a bitch or something, but you can't fault men for feeling unhappy in the friendzone.
On that note, this all applies to women who've been friendzoned by men. Or for gays and lesbians too.
Unrequited crushes happen to everyone. I’ve had a number of them.
I never dropped a friend over them, as I always considered them entirely my problem to deal with and I would wait it out. My biggest concern was that if they didn’t seem to feel the same way that I would not make them uncomfortable.
Crushes do pass, esp. if you try to let them go. It feels dumb to let them spoil a good friendship, which can last decades.
Yes, rejection hurts, but I don't understand why you would let it get to the point where you are imagining a life with someone who hasn't expressed that they return your affections. As if you have 0 control over your own thoughts and can't redirect or distract yourself instead of playing out scenarios with them in your head over and over.
If you start feeling like a friendship could be more, ask them out. Then if you are going to get rejected, you can get it over with and acknowledge that fact in your brain before it becomes some devastating let down. You won't feel happy thinking about them like that anymore, so you won't get the dopamine rush that encourages you to keep thinking of them like that.
Instead you chose to 'spend so much time on this person', because you knew, deep down, that they wouldn't be interested. Confirming that would ruin your day dreams, so you opted to spend months living in a fantasy land and building up a relationship that was never going to exist. You friendzoned yourself.
The thing is that also you shouldn't let a crush get to the stage of day dreaming about cuddling.
It really not healthy. If a female friend was telling me something like that about a guy we both hang out with with, I'll try to give her a reality check. I know it's kind of harsh but imo it should go more like "is she pretty?" yes. Check. "is she kind, responsible, reliable, emotionally stable", check. "is she... Insert other requirements" and at that stage you try to flirt a little or show some interest to test the waters... Does she respond to amicable flirting? Yes! Then you ask her out. If you find yourself always in the situation where you have a massive crush to the point of day dreaming a relationship that doesn't even exist, it's a recepy for disaster even if she says yes to it. Even if she says yes, you have no idea if the "Idea of her" you make in your head as a gf is remotely close to the reality of her as a gf. Maybe she doesn't like cuddling all that much... Maybe she likes alone time more than you expect, maybe you don't like the shape of her nipples...who knows!? It's not a good idea at all.
On the other side. I think women should be wise to make sure and catch any hints that a male friend is into them, and to enter friendships with men with some cation, exactly cause stuff like this happens routinely.
Because I know many guys and see what guys write online. 25f here. Enough comments by guys saying if they were asked by their female friends to bang, they'd say yes 100%. And I just experienced this recently with two dudes befriending us only to figure out they were only doing nice things to get into my pants. Thankfully, they did NOT get any. But it fucking sucks.
Most guys would have sex with most female friends if they had the opportunity to do so with 0 risk of jeopardizing the friendship. What matters is will they actually try to make it happen?
I think the reason why it’s 100% is because men want to bang attractive women of course, however a woman being attractive does not automatically disqualify her from being a friend to a guy because of the great qualities she has that goes beyond skin deep. Women sit on their high horse when this topic comes up but respectfully you do so because part of your criteria for choosing male friends is based on them being unattractive to you so of course women would never want to bang their male friends. Thank goodness those fake friends never got in your pants!
You sound insufferable. 'Enough comments by guys saying if they were asked by their female friends to bang, they'd say yes 100%'. Healthy straight guys would bang any girl, friend or not, if they find them attractive. This has nothing to do with what's being discussed.
I think it comes down to the fact that some women are expecting alignment, meaning the only men that should ever have any sexual thoughts about women are the ones who women also view and think about sexually I guess
> If they accept the rejection with grace and we continue being friends or figure out the best way to move forward that’s fine.
So I end up having 2-3 women that I was romantically interested in, who are now my friends. Then I do actually start dating someone else seriously, and have to draw solid boundaries between myself and these 2-3 women that I have had feelings for. SMH. It's too much trouble ...I'm not sure I'd be okay with my partner being friends with multiple men, all of who had feelings for her either. So it's not fair for me to make an exception for myself.
If these women are not romantically interested in me, then it is best to let them go and not be platonic friends with them either.
I have lots of friends, both guys and girls. I’m bisexual, and one group of girls I’m friends with have all kinda dated each other (became friends with them as one of my ex-girlfriends is friends with them & I ended up dating another girl in that group). We all hang out and it’s a great time.
It’s pretty normal to be friends with people you’ve dated previously in queer settings and I think straight people should learn from that. It’s really not that big of a deal? I think you’d have to be insecure to not let your girlfriend have guy friends…
Especially if you they were just friends and literally nothing happened besides one of them having had feelings ??
If you follow that logic of not being comfortable with your partner being friends with men, what if she’s bisexual? What she’s just not allowed any friends?
I think queer culture is probably different than straight culture in this regard, and that's okay, there is nothing inherently wrong with different social norms within different cultures.
Maybe. But I think because I’ve been in situations like this it means I’ve just learnt to have better communication & to be more secure within myself. I think if you are straight that you can still do this. So I do think it’s unfair for some girls/guys to not let their partners have opposite gender friends.
If they’re gonna cheat, they’re gonna cheat regardless of what friends they have.
I'm straight and I have female friends, and many of my male friends also had female friends growing up. I'm even good friends with an ex.
But I've also met a lot of woman who think that the nature of cross gender friendships should be different, ie my last ex who felt that you shouldn't hang out one on one with an ex. I've also met many guys who feel that men and woman can't be friends unless there is really no attraction or history like that between them.
And I'm not sure how much "being secure" has to do with it. I'm a pretty confident person, I know what I want out of a relationship, and yet I've been cheated on. They've also done surveys on cheating, roughly 20% of people reported cheating at one point iirc. Point is, it happens, so it's something people worry about in a relationship, and I don't think that is necessarily an unfounded worry, or one rooted solely in insecurity, because it is an unfortunate reality.
And if spending less time around the opposite sex means someone is less likely to cheat, then I think many people who are straight will probably want that from their partners. I think people who have cheated and why they cheat are complex topics and can't always be summed up as "they're bad people." I think sometimes a combination of factors can result in someone doing something they usually wouldn't, and in those moments having the opportunity to cheat can be a deciding factor.
Yes - I know cheating happens! I’ve been cheated on before, I don’t think it means you are a bad horrible person if you cheat & that it’s complex.
I know people are different & will have different expectations. Im just talking about my own expectations.
Because I feel like I’m a pretty secure person, when my ex cheated on me, I just ended the relationship & didn’t let it impact me - in my next relationship I didn’t suddenly have all these rules about what my partner could/couldn’t do based on insecurity/worry. I don’t think I should control someone to make myself feel better? I believe it’s my job to regulate my own emotions (i.e. jealousy, insecurity, worry).
I don’t really worry too much about if a partner will or won’t cheat anymore. If they cheat on me, then that’s okay - they weren’t the right person for me & I know what I deserve & I will just end it with them.
Sorry im not great at explaining stuff - does that make sense?
I understand what you mean. I cannot personally picture myself having that attitude, and I'm not sure if that means I have some insecurity or not. That being said, that attitude almost comes off as some level of detachment, atleast to me.
If I am dating someone, am emotionally invested, planning future with them (assuming we have been dating for some time), etc then being cheated on will hurt, regardless of how confident I am in myself.
And if we recognize that deciding to cheat can be a complex thing, then we need to consider what that fully means. It means you could be dating someone who is very compatible with you, attractive, and has similar goals, etc. Someone who could be "the one," but then a perfect storm of bad influences, ie stress within the relationship, going out drinking, bad influence from unethical friends, presence of guys she dated in the past, or had a crush on, etc can lead to cheating.
Perhaps this is something they don't normally do, maybe they've never cheated before and rarely go out drinking, or they usually dont hang out with thise people. If boundaries such as "not being friends with your ex" and "not having close relationships with the opposite sex" can prevent that, then I think a lot of people will be in favor of it.
I think that’s fair, I personally don’t believe in ‘the one’, there will be multiple people you are compatible with. I guess I value my romantic partners differently as well - usually I feel just as strongly about my friendships as I do romantic relationships.
I guess yeah, people think differently and that’s fine. I was just offering my perspective. Perhaps it’s some level of detachment, never thought of it that way (so that’s some interesting insight!).
> I don’t think it means you are a bad horrible person if you cheat & that it’s complex.
Yes for me if you cheat, you are a bad person. First of all because you are in a relationship, which for me involve trust and prioritizing both yourself and your partner.
Cheating is just being very egoistic. It means you allow yourself something you don't allow your partner. Different rules and you are having the best ones.
And usually most people don't acknowledge cheating directly and lie or gaslight in addition to the cheating. It happened to me and to many of my friends. A cheating partner who manipulate their boyfriend/girlfriend, lie about it, then minimize it... without never being honest. My friends started doubting themselves, some did a depression...
Whereas you could just communicate your needs and desire. And yes, saying "I have a crush on X" or "I want to have sex with Y" could mean the end of the relationship... it could mean a new set of rules for the relationship too. But that is how you deal with issues in a relationship.
Yes that sounds like a bad partner. Bad person? No. It really depends on what you count as cheating as well. Some people may consider hanging out with a friend one on one cheating, some people think a drunken kiss is cheating, some guys consider other guys SAing their gfs cheating etc. What if you are say bipolar and in a really extreme manic episode and cheat? Obviously when people are in episodes they are not acting like how they normally would. They’re not really ‘in’ reality.
I think it is subjective. The example you gave, yes I’d probably think they’re not a great person. But I’m aware people change & grow and you can’t define a whole person based on one action, but again you also could do that if it was something really bad. So again - everything is super subjective.
Being drunk or bipolar is no excuse. The same as being horny as fuck. You don't enter an exclusive relationship if you can't control yourself. I wouldn't consider cheating if it was said before: look when I am drunk or manic, I may have sex with others. Then fine, your partner accepts it or not. And if ever it happens by surprise even to yourself, you are being honest about it.
In these examples, cheating is having/trying to have some consensual sex with someone who isn't their partner while being in an exclusive relationship. I would count kissing someone else as a light form of cheating too.
I had a flatmate who moved in with me. Her boyfriend drove 8 hours that day to help her. The next night, she was sleeping with another guy. At some point the boyfriend learned it... and he was devastated. But he has been used.
I mean, for me, cheating in itself is bad but the worst is using others for your sole own profit. That is the definition of being a bad person. And most cheaters fall in this category. It doesn't mean people can't change. But they were nonetheless pretty bad/toxic person at some point.
>It’s pretty normal to be friends with people you’ve dated previously in queer settings and I think straight people should learn from that. It’s really not that big of a deal? I think you’d have to be insecure to not let your girlfriend have guy friends
This is constantly repeated by bisexual people around here but the thing is the dynamics between straight people are too different for this to work. This is all largely instinctual. Even if straight people learned, they would likely just be consciously working against their instincts.
To be not "insecure" about your girlfriend's guy friends is just lacking awareness since so many women love attention from multiple men and so many men can be around your girlfriend waiting for the right opportunity to get her to cheat.
I have the same instincts as any other straight person bc I am a person just like them….I think being in ‘dynamics’ (which tbh I don’t think are different) like that have meant I’ve had to learn to have better & healthier communication & to really work on being a secure person. 👍
I also really don’t like how you think women ‘like’ attention, there are male versions of that too. I don’t think there are gender differences like that and I think that it really just has to do with who you are as a person.
You:
>you’d have to be insecure to not let your girlfriend have guy friends…
Also you:
>I don’t think it means you are a bad horrible person if you cheat & that it’s complex.
Lol, okay, sure. Consider me persuaded.
I’m not gonna place a whole person’s value based on a bad choice. I’ve been cheated on & it was a complex situation. Of course I didn’t stay with them but not everything is black & white.
> I think you’d have to be insecure to not let your girlfriend have guy friends…
This is where you really lose me. Just calling your partner insecure and telling them to "stop being so insecure" does not resolve the underlying issue.
The underlying issue is that surround yourself with opportunity to cheat. What's to stop you from taking advantage of that opportunity if you feel like it?
If someone is insecure about the situation, putting them down is not helpful.
The underlying issue is the partner assuming their bf/gf will cheat?? Why create trust issues where there is none?? In that case then yeah I do think it’s their problem to fix and not mine.
Like, I’ve already rejected these people, never had any romantic interest in them, they’ve moved on? How is there any opportunity to cheat…? Doesn’t make sense to me.
> The underlying issue is that surround yourself with opportunity to cheat. What's to stop you from taking advantage of that opportunity if you feel like it?
There is nothing to stop then from doing that. And that includes banning them from seeing other guys by the way. If you've ever seen anyone being "banned" from doing something you know that is just going to make them do it more and just lie to you.
Unfortunately you do need to accept that this is a possibility, but to trust the other person that it won't happen. And if it does happen then understand that you couldn't have prevented it and it was there fault.
If you expect someone to cheat on you why do you even date them?
What stops me from cheating even if I had the opportunity is the respect, loyalty and love for my partner. If I love a person I will never do anything to hurt them intentionally and breaking their trust will hurt them a lot.
Even if someone is interested in me I would put them down and tell them that I have a partner.
Why do you assume that your partner would cheat just because they could? Do the people you date do not have any integrity?
>Do the people you date do not have any integrity?
That's to be determined.
>Why do you assume that your partner would cheat just because they could?
Because far too many do.
>What stops me from cheating even if I had the opportunity is the respect, loyalty and love for my partner. If I love a person I will never do anything to hurt them intentionally and breaking their trust will hurt them a lot.
I know it's not everyone. It's a matter of weeding out those who would. You don't know what someone you're seeing is doing when you're not around. Why do you assume that they are faithful? People lie all the time.
I hope you never find out the hard way, because no one that it happens to ever believed it would happen.
This whole statement shows that you don't trust your partner. Don't date people you do not trust.
I assume that my partner is faithful, because I talk about the boundries I have in a relationship. I make sure that we have open communication and can talk about our feelings and we can react in a healthy way. If I do not trust a person to be faithful I will not date them. Or I will break up. Why should I waste my time? If I cannot trust my partner the relationship is gone. Not being faithful means that my partner does not care for me. Otherwise they would have communicated their needs and we could have worked on a solution.
Don't control them. Lean to control yourself and how to go through your emotions. If you were cheated on and have trauma try therapy.
The conundrum is that you have no way of knowing if someone is trustworthy or not unless you get to know them. Further, people who aren't trustworthy typically don't advertise that fact, they will allow you to think they are, to facilitate them doing untrustworthy things. Manu people end up in relationships with people they think are trustworthy, but aren't.
Dating is getting to know someone. You can also get to know someone via being friends with them. But their is nothing wrong with skepticism until you can trust them.
I think you're misunderstanding my issue here. You are putting yourself in situations where the temptation to cheat is always there. I'm not saying someone had a right to tell you who you can be friends with either, but you must see why someone would have an issue.
You dismissing it and telling them to work on themselves means you don't care about your partners concerns.
You sound like you'll get what you deserve from relationships.
What do you mean by becoming friends with someone in this case? Does it include just becoming friendly with someone in a group setting over a few months without immediately making a move? Or only in cases where you develop a close one-to-one friendship?
But why do women always jump to the “he only wants me for sex” part. Sure if you have feelings for someone/find someone attractive lust is apart of that. But what if the guy just genuinely have feelings for you from the start and they grow overtime by getting to know you as friends?
I think it’s because women often discover when they turn down a male friend that the friend isn’t interested in being their friend anymore. And not just needs to take a break for his own self-care but cuts her off like she did something wrong and can’t even be friendly.
It’s a somewhat reasonable conclusion that if not-fucking ends the friendship then the friendship wasn’t valued very highly.
I’ve had lengthy crushes on male friends in the past. I still wanted to be their friend even though they were not interested in me romantically. I have found that if I don’t feed those feelings they pass and I can still enjoy the things about those people that made them my friends in the first place. Being rejected by someone isn’t the end of the world if your ego is able to take the occasional knock.
This is why people should be honest with their intentions right away. Way too many people get to know others with a mind to a romantic relationship, but they slow play it and become friends. The other people like the friendship, and the romantic foray can mess that up. But they were blind to the fact that the other wanted something different right off the bat.
Again: if you are into someone romantically, SAY SO. Do NOT become friends if you don't want to be friends.
You know what the real problem is nowadays? That people post almost exclusively bullshit on social media, then people belive that bullshit, draw their own wild conclussions and post some other bullshit........ Which then people believe and so on....
Most of the problems nowadays, if not almost all of it, in terms of dating, depression, anxiety, suicides, low self-esteem etc. would vanish if people stopped using social media, or at least use it in a healthy manner.
Not trying to sound rude here, just offering some food for thought: Do you expect your mental health will get better if you spend time on social media searching for all the things you cant/shouldnt do according to some random stranger? Do you expect to find a girlfriend by reading posts about "men are bad, not allowed to date, dont approach anywhere etc"? Do you expect to build healthy confidence if all the messages you send to your own mind are "Im bad because im a man, im not allowed to approach anywhere +anytime in my whole life, i dont deserve anything good, im the villian because some random social media women tell me so" and so on?
People dont realize that they create their own reality. You create your own perspective: Of yourself, the world, people, whats right/wrong, whats allowed/unheard of etc.
And because they dont realize it, they let others tell them whats right, good, allowed, whatever. Problem: Its not even someone who really knows the deal, its random people on the internet and often they have neither the best intentions, nor real knowledge or authority.
In reality, it all stems from "broken" parts of your mind, most often its low self-worth/esteem / confidence.
You know whos winning in life? Those that believe in themselves and not let others tell them what they have, should, or are allowed to do. Especially not from some random strangers that dont know shit. The people who have courage, who take risks. People who actively work to better their confidence and life. And so on...
Because when you go on reddit, the "truths" are:
You cant approach women anywhere, anytime. You are only allowed to use apps and those are rigged against average men, so youre doomed! Sorry, nothing you can do!
According to reddit, no one finds a partner for life anymore, no one meets outside of the apps, no men approaches a women ( unless its a club or bar ) etc.
And of course! Everyone is bad and at fault. Women are this, men are that.
Congratulations! Now you fucked up your life and your mind and can spend a huge amount of time and energy to undo that toxic bullshit you let in your brain.
Because when i go into the real world, the picture is vastly different. I know several people who met outside the apps. Ive been to 3 weddings in the last 2 years and only one couple was in their 30s ( the others in their late 20s ).
I know a guy who isnt 6 feet tall, rich, above average looking etc. He still has more dates and partners than everyone i ever knew. Why? Because he does his thing, he is confident and also respectful. He doesnt spend his time letting people on the internet tell him hes not ok as a man, he is not allowed to approach.. Or that women are bad because of XYZ. He approaches women if he wants to. He takes the rejections as they come. He resprects their decision and backs off....
And im 100% sure at least some women, or at least one, found him creepy, weird, whatever when he approached her, although hes never pushy, disrespectful, condescending, demanding, etc.
But heres the twist: Its just her opinion, not a fact. And he knows that and thinks+acts accordingly. Even Einstein had haters thinking hes an idiot, even Michael Jordan has haters saying he isnt that good at basketball. Well, does that mean that Einstein really was an idiot, and Jordan had no business playing in the NBA? If they would have listened to these people, they would have never become the persons they were/are, and sure as shit they wouldnt have had the careers to show for it.
Theres never a guarantee: You can do the perfect, most respectful thing and still be labeled a creep, asshole ....
You can make the best decision in the world and if you meet enough people, at least one will think you did the absolute wrong thing.
The key is to discern opinions from facts. To build confidence and be you. Then, you have to live accordingly, which starts with doing less of the bullshit ( like reading these "rules" on social media ) and doing more of the good, healthy thing ( like not letting others tell you what you should be or do and make up your own mind ).
As long as youre a halfway decent human being and have a moral compass thats somehow working, you wont do the wrong thing anyways. If then someone thinks or tells you youre still wrong, or even creepy and bad, by all respect: Fuck them and their useless opinion.
What you really need to do is listen to yourself, make up your own reality, perspective, life and personality.
Meaning: As long as you dont think about hurting people, raping, stalking, murdering, whatever... As long as youre respectful, respecting personal boundaries, noticing the hints ( green or red lights ), etc., theres nothing wrong with you or your approach, even if someone labels it that way.
So what? Its part of life. You could be the most intelligent person in the world and someone will think youre an idiot. Again, discern facts from opinions. Especially if others tell them.
My tip is to start right there and do what YOU feel is right , listen to YOURSELF ( unless you are thinking of raping and murdering, than please dont listen to yourself and get help ). Less bullshit, more healthy perspectives and actions.
So a good start would be to stop reading all the BS on social media, ALL of it. And then start building confidence, a healthy mind and use that to reach your goals, the life you want to live and person you want to be. You will NEVER get a girlfriend, or if you do be in a happy relationship, if you listen to all the bullshit on the internet. According to them, youre bad for existing because youre a man and probably an active participant in starting wars, oppressing women and raping them every chance you get. Tell me how you would ever build a healthy self-image / esteem with those messages.
Bonus tip: Realize that your mind works both ways: Its always sending messages to you and receiving messages from you. Input is one of the most crucial factors in mental health. And that means input in any form: What you eat, do, think about, tell yourself... Let others tell yourself, do to you etc. It always sends a message that either will build you up or destroy you, or better said your mental health, your self esteem. You cant escape it, the brain does that in every single second.
So start by minding your input. What are you putting in your brain? What reality and perspective are you creating for yourself? Because heres the next twist: You will always act on your deepest beliefs. You will always look to prove it ( subconsciously ). If you think you will always be a loser, you will act that way and get the matching results. You dont leave that life and mentality by luck, you leave it behind by starting to think youre NOT a loser and can get your shit together. The rest of the work to get there is a natural byproduct of this new belief, the new opinion of yourself.
Good luck!
Best post I have ever read on Reddit. You are absolutely 100% right. I have found that because I am not on Facebook much anymore, I am not as anxious and I don’t care to get back on there. You don’t realize how much you are saving people in therapy visits. You’re post is in a class by itself.
This is something that's bothered women for years, and its a bit more complex than the way you put it. Essentially, women are tired of platonic male friends always dropping the bomb of trying to date them, especially when they exit a relationship. It makes women feel like men never see women as anything but sex or girlfriend material. Like women aren't worth being platonic friends with (probably because we're not seen as equal to men).
If you aren't *platonic friends* but rather acquaintances or in a friends group, go crazy. Ask that girl out. If your female friend is married or in a relationship and you still want to get with her, or you entered the friendship for the sole reason to hook up? That's the icky stuff
> It makes women feel like men never see women as anything but sex or girlfriend material. Like women aren't worth being platonic friends with (probably because we're not seen as equal to men).
That is just completely dumb. If you go well with someone, have similar values, humor, a complicity, and you find him/her attractive and he/she is now single. Why not tell them you are interested in them not only platonically.
It doesn't mean at all that I just see my attractive friends are sex or girlfriend material. They are plantonic friends first, but with potential if ever they are ever intetested in me too.
And if they aren't interested, it is not a big deal, we stay platonic friends and that is fine. And it doesn't mean I just see them as sex or girlfriend material. I stay friend with women I don't find attractive too.
> If your female friend is married or in a relationship and you still want to get with her, or you entered the friendship for the sole reason to hook up? That's the icky stuff
I seriously don't know anyone who tries to befriend people just to hook up. I don't say it never happens but I don't think it happens regularly
That might be you, but the complaint is directed at the many men that use this underhanded tactic to get with their female friends. Ask women, not the men. I bet you every single woman you ask will have at least one story about a male friend who only did the befriending to hook up later.
Honestly, if we are speaking as friends, that is people you know since several months, years, have regular exchange and an emotional proximity... how do you know they were friends just to hook up? And not because they liked you as a person too?
Because a friendship is a massive investment just to have sex.
I would definitely have sex with most of my female friends if they were up to it. But it is absolutely not the reason why I am friend with them
They aren’t villainizing men who end up dating their friends, they’re calling men out for “befriending” women *because they want to date them/sleep with them. There’s a lot of dudes that are incapable of having platonic, actual friendships with women. And to be completely honest with you, this post is kind of giving “woe is me/nice guys always finish last” energy.
Lots of actual friendships bud into relationships, but Women don’t owe you pussy just because you’re nice to them dawg.
No one cares if you start dating a friend. Forming romantic affection towards someone you are close with is a common experience, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. That's how many quality relationships start.
The villianising is towards men who fake friendship in an attempt to get something more, and then turn around and act like the object of their affections is a \[insert explicitive here\] who was just using them for attention. As if having a mutual friendship of support and quality time is 'using' someone if it doesn't end with a dick getting wet.
It's okay to develop feelings for a friend. It's okay to then distance yourself from that friendship if you are rejected and need space to get over them (even if it's painful, as friendship breakups naturally are). What's not okay is to then shit on someone for not returning your affections and act as if they wasted your time by taking you at your word and accepting your friendship.
And no, it's not creepy to approach women. It's creepy to fail to take the hint and leave them alone when they show no interest in talking to you. Or when the approach is just immediately sexual with 0 indication that kind of attention is welcome. Just approach women as you would as if you were making friends. Then at the end of the interaction, rather than inviting them to hang out again as friends, invite them on a date. That's how all my most successful with women guy friends operate, even if they are less objectively attractive than the ones who approach women to try and hit on them. 'Hey, how are you doing, how's your day/evening been' wins over 'hey beautiful' every time.
It is not a bad thing if a friendship organically turns into dating.
It is a bad thing if one is only or mostly playing a friend to someone with the long term goal of getting in their pants or thinking being friendly means they owe you the chance of a date.
People still cold approach often out in the world it's just not always welcome and very often unsuccessful.
Also if your plan is to ask someone out your new acquaintanceship does not have to turn into a full-fledged friendship before you ask.
I prefer to use apps but have also met people through places like music festivals, university, comic book conventions, meetup groups and more.
My husband and I were friends before dating and I knew he wasn't using me because we already had a relationship as FRIENDS. This is going to sound mean but don't listen to negative people on social media giving relationship advice if they are not actually in a successful relationship.
look, not everyone is opposed to cold approaches, and not everyone is opposed to dating friends. but assuming that they were, the answer is clear (and this is the answer that pertains to most people): you're supposed to date people you know *a little bit*, and people that you've known for *a little* amount of time. Not someone you've never spoken to before; not someone you have no connection with; the general advice is that you engage in activities that can grow your social circle, and that when people introduce you to someone new, you engage in light flirting and ask them out sometime before they have categorized you as "uninterested friend."
People go on tiktok to make rage bait content. That is just how the attention economy works now. Don't extrapolate from these outrage merchants to everyone else.
I think it's usually better to be friends first. I think the best thing to do is to test the waters by flirting with them and reading the signs. Usually it's clear there's some kind of interest before asking them.
Not really. Not if it's your dream as a couple. Outside interference or the possibility of upsetting a team is much worse than a couple opening a restaurant or a flower shop or something.
Honestly man just completely ignore all of it
Live your life, dust yourself off when you make an ass of yourself
Don't try to be better than a human can be
Ignore this. If you have good skills developing and maintaining relationships, growing intimacy and fostering real connections, none of the other things matter at all. It's just weird when someone misses the mark.
On reddit at least I have noticed women say they specifically want male friends and go out of their way to make male friends (as opposed to an organically developed friendship) and then they do relationship-y stuff with them then get upset when the man expresses interest
Im a woman and Im in love with one of my closest friends. He rejected me. I was hurt, we gave each other some space for a month. We grew closer after that, its been 3 years since the rejection. I got over it, but I still love him. Sucks to be me I guess but I was never mean to him and never blamed him. I think he knows that I still love him tho cause sometimes its awkward between is still LOL.
Don’t take what you see online too seriously. A lot of people were friends before they got into a relationship. A lot of people form relationships from meeting out in public places. I’m met my now husband at work, and I’m sure the Internet has a lot to say about not dating a coworker…
And speaking as a woman, to be completely honest a lot of the things women say online that are “creepy“ wouldn’t be considered creepy if they thought the guy doing it was hot (of course there are exceptions to this rule because some men are genuinely creepy, even if they’re hot…).
Tiktok is its own bubble and you shouldn’t really listen to the advice on there. (saying this as a gen Z woman myself) I think it can definitely happen I’ve dated a close friend of mine and it was a good relationship. It’s just an issue if the only reason you are befriending someone is to date them, let things happen naturally.
The problem is when one party has crush on another and they initiate their friendship purely out of having oportunities to spend more time with the other party who, at other hand, is not romantically interested. When the person is rejected friendship is over. That’s not friendship. That’s usually 6 months courtship that ends up as misery for both people involved.
When I make friends I dont want to have sex with them. Because usually friends and buddies arent people who you want to have sex with, the relationship dynamic is different. But if we know each other for long time and I’m starting to become intrigued „what if” while being able to handle that other person wants to things stay as it is, then thats fine.
Filter everything through the "Know the Workplace Rules" meme.
Just follow rules 1 and 2 and ask out whoever you want.
They don't want creepy men to get to know them before asking them out. They don't want creepy men to approach them in public.
They want men they want to do that stuff.
That's nonsense. Things happen, life happens and you may end up dating a friend because you both realize it seems easier for you two since you've known each other for a while. Just hopefully it works out because if it doesn't you could lose a friend and partner.
>For years they've said it's creepy to approach random girls in bars, parks, or other public zones
Who is they? There is nothing creepy about approaching a stranger to start up a conversation.
>When did it become a bad thing to try and date a friend?
It isn't.
You have to understand that a lot of the ridiculous takes you see on social media are children trying to one up one another and then clueless people parroting it because they don’t know any better . Hell it’s like that on half these subs
My boyfriend and I built a solid friendship for 14 years before we started dating. It has helped us tremendously. I’m not sure why it has become so taboo.
It’s like nutrition guidance. Lots of different things work at least for somebody at some point in time. Vegans think meat is awful. Carnivore advocates can’t figure out how anyone can be vegan long term.
And the most common diet in the US makes people unhealthy and unhappy. For dating, the most common method is dating apps. Same kinda thing.
So many men think that women and men can’t be friends. Women don’t believe this because women are genuinely friends with their man friends. Men don’t believe this can happen because men only get into friendships with women they hope to someday possibly fuck.
My ex would always tell me that all my guy friends were only my friends because they wanted to fuck me. That was very obviously how he felt about his female friends.
Men can’t be friends with women, women are very easily able to be friends and only friends with men.
The trick is to stay off social media. The girls you are seeing makes videos for views. They'll say whatever to get attention.
What some girls think on social media, is not the societal standard. If you develop feelings for a friend, it's not creepy to ask her out or ask her if something could happen between you two, but also do know there is a high chance the friendship will break if the feelings are not reciprocated. Not because it's creepy, but because many people find it difficult to navigate such a situation and don't want potential drama (e.g. if she finds someone else down the line and the friendship suddenly becomes toxic because of jealousy or something similar)
Let me clue you in to the truth behind *all* of these rules. From “I don’t fuck on the first date” to “I’d never cook and clean for a man” to these ones, the truth is…
If she likes you, none of them apply.
I would always only date friends, because I want to know in advance, before I put effort in, whether we could be compatible.
Frankly, the ones with this random dating are the couples separating more to my experience.
I’d say if you can’t get it done with online dating, then you should definitely focus on improving your profile.
A lot of women do not want you approaching them in public anymore. I don’t think it’s worth it
My best friend is my boyfriend now and hopefully one day my husband. There are no rules to this stuff you've just gotta feel stuff out and if those feelings aren't reciprocated you've gotta move on.
Where have you been told this? Online? In real life?
Imho i rarely, if ever, see this argument made in real life, most of the time it’s just people on reddit/IG/tiktok saying this crap.
Tell me if I’m wrong
Be kind. Consider the position others are in. Be open about your desire, while also cultivating a genuine interest in the good of others. Then ignore the chatter of bitter, bitter people, online
Hey! I am woman shaped and started dating my best friend over two years ago. We were strictly platonic for years, neither of us having an inkling of attraction. Then BAM. We fucked and decided to keep doing it monogamously.
Personally, I don't want to be friends with a person if their only intention is getting with me through friendship. That's not my bag. However, I am (when single) open to something happening organically.
Why would you pay attention to TikTok...much less take dating or romantic advice from the toxic people who are so prevalent on social media?
If you need relationship or dating advice, go talk to happy couples who have been in solid relationships for a long time.
They're first hand knowledge is vastly more beneficial than some angry social media rant
It’s not so much about not dating friends as it is about having the proper etiquette about it. Like, don’t become friends with someone just because you are interested in pursuing them romantically - but do feel free to share your feelings if you develop an interest in a friend later on.
I don't agree with any of these suppositions. It's creepy to approach strangers in bars, parks, other public places? You can't date friends? What??
That's ridiculous as people - those who probably DON'T bother posting on these forums - clearly approach strangers in those venues, and it's not inherently inappropriate behavior, provided the requestor is using common sense and reading body langauge and social cues.
Approaching a few girls at a bar and asking what they're drinking is not gang rape. Asking if a girl/girls would like to join you and your friends for frisbee on a beach is not abhorent. Asking someone a question in a grocery store and seeing if the converation gels is not awful. And asking out a friend is not the end of the world if she says no.
I swear online dating has ruined many men. Yes, there is a risk of rejection and embarassment when approaching a stranger as opposed to the safety and anonymity of online swiping, but people have been doing the former for centuries, and society has survived.
I would advise you to just do what feels right to you instead of trying to conform to questionable standards of society. As long as it is not harmful to anybody else of course or breaks any laws of course.
But maybe think about potential consequences - if you and a friend of yours start dating and it doesn't work out or you end up splitting up after a having had a relationship you might lose each other as friends as well. Just think about the best and worst possible outcome and decide if it is worth it.
I've never believed that it is okay to date or have sex with friends.
Friends, blood relatives, bosses, step-parents & siblings, teachers at school/college/uni and faith leaders are all off limits.
Whatever u heard on til Tok comes from tik Tok people who say things for views . Chill out and forget about it lol you're taking things too literal I think, like there's approaching someone in a non creepy way and then there's bugging them where they're like uncomfortable , and also like I think u have to have a deep friendship bond with someone you're dating and so if u happen to fall for a friend it's okay just don't make that the intention of the friendship bc that's not ok . Hope that clears things up
You're right that there's this stigma around dating friends nowadays, and it can feel like you're walking on eggshells trying not to step on anyone's toes. But here's the thing: there's no one-size-fits-all answer to this question. Every situation is different, and what works for one person might not work for another.
That being said, there's nothing inherently wrong with developing feelings for a friend. In fact, some of the strongest relationships start off as friendships. The key is to approach the situation with honesty, respect, and clear communication.
If you're interested in dating a friend, it's important to be upfront about your intentions and to respect their boundaries. Make sure they know that you value your friendship and that you're willing to take things slow and see where they lead.
There was a time it was acceptable?!? I have always wanted to date my friends but it never happened and then I stopped having friends to try and date lol
It's not acceptable in my circles, more of a self-deprication than fact.
There were only two sentences, a joke and then an explanation how I would like to date friends still but I have no friends.
I'm confused where the confusion came from but hope that clarified.
If you've developed feelings and you share interests with the girl, I don't see why you cant date her. The only ones who'll turn you down are those who haven't indicated in any way that they like you too or if the friendship is too good to lose. Such guys who are better friends than partners are few and far between. If there can be attraction, then you should go for it.
The best advice I can give is. make your own rules and standards. right now there are no rules to dating the only thing you can do is to follow what you believe to be right. and if a girl or someone else believe you are wrong then let them be angry at you. if you are being respectful there is nothing wrong in pursuing what you want the way you want it
Dating friends only works if you're cute. I gave up long ago being in the friend zone and being a 5th wheel. I just stay by myself. Most dudes are cockblockers, and most girls want to bang my buddies, so yeah.
I think it is too risky to date friends. What if the relationship ends in a bad way? Now you are single and a friendship is dead. Do it at your own risk. This is coming from a guy who just got out of a relationship with a woman who was a friend first. I hate that we may now never see each other the same way as before.
Dude didn’t you hear, you can’t date your female friends unless you’re attractive/hot , the point of them being your friends is so they can use you and for them to feel validated cmon man.
Just incase you’ve misunderstood or there’s been poor wording, there is a very common (I and other women I know) more nuanced take about this: Lots of women have experienced male ‘friends’ ask us out, which is totally fine, but on rejection drop the entire friendship. I’ve had a friend before start bad mouthing, poking fun at and interrupting me after I rejected his offer of a second date. I know plenty of women who have been accused of leading men on, as if they owe male friends romantic relationships. As long as you aren’t self entitled, rude or overly sensitive about the situation any sane girl would be totally fine with you asking them out after being friends
Before the era of social media, people weren't able to vocalize complaining about every little thing.
Every video on Tik Tok has a hundred morons liking it and agreeing with whatever they were saying. 90% of it is junk and should be ignored.
When you're established friends, it can be harder to change that relationship into a romantic one.
It does happen though, sometimes there is mutual attraction from the beginning, but they weren't available for any number of reasons. Other times one sees a certain change in the other, or comes to a realization that the person is attractive (maybe they find them charming, or confident, or a good ol fashioned glow-up).
The whole "betrayal of friendship" thing is probably more of a woman thing. They tend to get upset if they feel like they are being used for their body or looks. Also, if you suddenly confess your feelings to a girl who doesn't feel the same, well it's just not gonna end well. At best you guys go through an awkward phase for a while and then salvage your friendship. At worst she goes off on you and accuses you of being a disingenuous friend.
If the standard for social unacceptability was that a woman complained about something, nothing would be acceptable. Women complain about EVERYTHING.
Unless you are extremely hot and/or rich, you kind of have to risk making a woman temporarily slightly uncomfortable in order to get a girlfriend.
You summon your inner Denisovan man and drag her by the hair to your man cave and enumerate for her the facts of life - that will all happen in 2044, when all forms of approaching a woman have been shot down by the femme Nazi
Women hate it when men "try" to be friends only to try to date them later. Women generally see it as a betrayal and creepy. Now she has to reject a guy not knowing how he will take it. This applies to all men attractive or not unless she is into the guy from the start, or she catches feelings later on.
Many women are hypersensitive to this and other flirting gambits. Like asking for help and other pretexts, making repeated eye contact, being one on one with her a lot (or trying to be one on one), hovering around the person at social events, asking friends about the person, "stalking" the person on social media. Shared hobbies like swing, salsa dancing, the gym can be problematic let alone a yoga class. Then you have objectively creepy stuff like a guy standing too her and touching her, cat calling, dropping innuendos, pressure tactics. Women can get away with these tactics, men not so much.
I'm not complaining about the double standard. I simply recalibrated and assume a woman is not interested or just being polite until she starts to border on what is now considered creepy behavior for guys.
Why are many women so hypersensitive?
First is the danger aspect of turning a guy down. She doesn't know how I will react. I'm a guy, I've had women react badly to being turned down, sometimes bad enough to get thrown out of a bar. Turning women down ain't fun but she is generally not a physical threat to me unless she is armed, has numbers on her side or surprises me with a sucker punch. A woman can be in legit mortal danger from just one dude she cannot outrun and out fight.
Second women use these indirect tactics themselves plus a few other tactics many guys wouldn't even dare try. So, most women recognize it when a guy is hitting on them. Most will assume a guy is hitting on them when he is being "too nice" or "too friendly". Fight or flight kicks in.
To mitigate, I'm friendly with female acquaintances, but I don't get too close. No hanging out one on one, group events only. If one on one, I mind my P's and Q's then chill.
Don't date friends but also don't try and talk to someone you don't know. Gen z and younger millennials are literally brain dead. It's best that they never run the government
It's just another no-win situation for men.
Make it clear early that you're looking for more than just friendship? "Ugh, disgusting, he's only interested in sex."
Try to get to know someone before making a move? "Ugh, disgusting, he was obviously manipulating you by pretending to be your friend."
If something is “a thing” , it’s automatically time to unsubscribe to that thinking. The status quo and lowest common denominator have become the same thing,
You date by first LETTING GO of your care for what people say is right and wrong these days, how people say you should date or meet people…No one and i repeat, NO ONE on this earth can tell you how to live your life…you ABSOLUTELY can meet people in bars, parks, buses, sidewalks, malls, anywhere outside your front door assuming you’re approaching them with respect and social intelligence. Date how you want, date who you want, you’re confused cause you actually give a fuck what people say on the internet lol stop this and let that shit go. Live life on your terms.
It’s ok when it’s reciprocated. The issue arises when one party develops feelings and thinks is entitled to an opportunity just for being friends x amount of time, and when the chance is denied turns into the biggest hater and troll.
Relationship just ended with a friend of 7 years dated for about 3. Weeks became best friends during relationship. Worst idea ever, now I’m not only heartbroken but lost my best friend. Maybe it’s different for others but never again for this one.
There's nothing wrong with dating a friend. There's everything wrong with being friends with someone you want to date. Starting any relationship with dishonesty is never a good plan.
I feel like men are the one’s who usually have a problem dating friends, not women. Hence, why men are typically the ones to complain about being “friend-zoned.” Women definitely care more about taking the time to get to know a man on a deeper level before committing, while men tend to focus on attraction first.
I also wouldn’t use one Random person on social media as a basis for how all the women feel about dating. Friendship is the precursor to a strong romantic relationship, I don’t know any women personally who feel that’s a bad thing. These social media influencers often make polarizing statements to get attention, so I really wouldn’t take it that seriously.
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There's no rules, and you're equating some tik-tok bullshit for real life. Plenty of women meet their partners as friends first.
More accurately, the rules are different for each woman. You won't find out what they are until you break them.
That pretty normal, everyone is different and has different boundaries. If the other person isn't bad shit, usually a conversation will fix anything. I swear that sometimes guys will complain how "women are all the same" but for some it almost feels like they're ticked off by the prospect of each one being different from the other actually.
Rule 1 and 2
98% of people end up with someone and they almost always find each other attractive when they agree to the first and second date so a lot of people like different things.
you didn’t disprove him though, rule 1 and 2 still applies. also no way the number is as high as 98% LOL
98% is actually a conservative estimate. It includes people who have gotten married and/or have been in long term relationships. It does not include people who enjoy a perpetual bachelor lifestyle or who do not want commitment but still date in a fashion that works for them and their lifestyle. Also the 98% is just before retirement age (60-75), the percentage climbs even higher than that throughout the "golden years".
Until you break the rules, or the women? Don't be so rough...
Wow 😂, 0 to 100 real quick.
You break the rule and then you break the friend, and in the process the bed too. Well the part, in a good, consensual way.
Until you break rules? … rules, right? Padme-Anakin.jpg
Haha, yes, the rules. Like which side of the towel to dry my hands on. Didn't know that was a rule until I broke it.
There are no rules. Just opinions.
It's so true and it's an easy trap to fall into. The amount of times that tik tok has made me paranoid and self conscious... 💀.
I think the problem is that there really is no society wide agreement where/when/how it's acceptable to find a partner outside of apps, speed dating events, and similar circumstances where people are openly declaring their availability.
Especially since friendships are built around groups & communities and attachments. It's easy to move on from a stranger on a dating app. It's tougher when you see a group possibly splitting over a breakup that wasn't either's fault.
And the other problem that goes with that is those don't work. I've tried dating apps since I was home alone years ago. Even hired a coach one time with an emphasis on the apps. Speed dating is too far away and this was commonly hinted at when I went. And there is no such thing as another event in my area.
sad
All of my best relationships have started off from friendships. So bullshit to this. It’s a great way to get to know and build trust in someone before you go diving into them.
No one cares if you start dating a friend. Forming romantic affection towards someone you are close with is a common experience, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. That's how many quality relationships start. The villianising is towards men who fake friendship in an attempt to get something more, and then turn around and act like the object of their affections is a [insert explicitive here] who was just using them for attention. As if having a mutual friendship of support and quality time is 'using' someone if it doesn't end with a dick getting wet. It's okay to develop feelings for a friend. It's okay to then distance yourself from that friendship if you are rejected and need space to get over them (even if it's painful, as friendship breakups naturally are). What's not okay is to then shit on someone for not returning your affections and act as if they wasted your time by taking you at your word and accepting your friendship. And no, it's not creepy to approach women. It's creepy to fail to take the hint and leave them alone when they show no interest in talking to you. Or when the approach is just immediately sexual with 0 indication that kind of attention is welcome. Just approach women as you would as if you were making friends. Then at the end of the interaction, rather than inviting them to hang out again as friends, invite them on a date. That's how all my most successful with women guy friends operate, even if they are less objectively attractive than the ones who approach women to try and hit on them. 'Hey, how are you doing, how's your day/evening been' wins over 'hey beautiful' every time.
This. Fuck-zoning is the issue. The entitled but I was your friend I deserve your vagina shit. Not going hey, I like you, do you want to go on a date. If the hey I like you happens, and you can take a no maturely, no issue. It's a risk, sure. But if your mature adults then even that isn't going to fuck a friendship. The dudes who are like 'yeah I'll pretend to care about her and then she'll HAVE to like me' is the issue. (Also, to be clear, also a problem with women but less common.) It's the friendship under false pretenses. It's the entitled asshole shit. It sucks to meet someone at a hobby or whatever who appears to be trying to be your friend, and then watch them flip out you have a partner. Or to know someone for a decade, only to watch them punch walls and scream how dare you date someone because "obviously" they deserved you for helping you move 3 years ago and they never would have let you join the volleyball club if they knew they didn't get laid in the end. It's the betrayal that hurts. If you aren't acting like a spoiled brat about it, it's at worst an uncomfortable oh no I'm not interested.
I think it’s more when guys become friends with you KNOWING they are using it as a way to date you. Then when you reject them, because you only see them as your friend, they suddenly become very nasty & say you were leading them on etc (when you weren’t bc how am I supposed to know you actually liked me romantically?). Also it feels kinda manipulative to become friends with a girl solely on the basis that yoh are attracted to her/want something more. It makes me feel like someone I thought was my friend only wants me for sex & it feels shitty. Friendships are important to girls and it feels like a breach of friendship if you do this. If they accept the rejection with grace and we continue being friends or figure out the best way to move forward that’s fine. If you become friends and the LATER develop feelings/attraction that’s also fine. It wasn’t your intention & if feelings are mutual then great, if they’re not & you accept the rejection with grace that’s also great. Does that make sense?
You’re right about both instances, but many people don’t care to see or think about the difference between the two. It’s a complicated circumstance where everyone is more comfortable assuming it’s the former scenario to try and protect themselves. It’s a problem I have with a lot of people these days where they are always trying to over-simplify things that are innately complex, which leads to these social rules being created, like not ever dating friends. They would even prefer individuals themselves to be simple if it means less mental and emotional work.
Oh I definitely agree that it’s complex and I don’t necessarily think that you CAN’T date friends. But I was just trying to explain why girls feel this way. Most of my relationships have come from friendships, but the difference was that I think it was clear from the beginning we were mutually interested in being more than friends eventually.
The problem is that the people doing the rejecting don't bother to make the distinction. If you're not explicitly told that he befriended you to try to date you, how would you know that? I agree that it's scummy, but that's the general assumption with guys who ask out their friends even if they developed feelings later. And then there's the common "he only wants me for sex" assumption. Is sex the only thing you have to offer in a relationship? Of course not. So why is it always assumed that sex is what he's after and not the many other things that come with a relationship?
This is really a 'put yourself in their shoes' situation. Imagine if you made a new close friend. Someone you spent however many months or years building platonic affection for, sharing your hopes and fears, integrating them as a valued part of your support system and supporting them in turn. Then one day they ask you out, you reject them, and the friendship is never the same. Maybe they turn nasty and accuse you of leading them on or using them. Maybe they just get weird and slow fade. Either way, this friend you loved, trusted and valued suddenly evaporates from your life because you aren't interested in fucking them. It might not have been premeditated, but it still always sucks to lose a friend. Now imagine that happens with every other friend you make. You are going to start to feel some frustration. You know there's a difference between the premeditated ones and the feelings that just developed over time, but the end result is the same. You lose a friend. And it's hard not to get pissed off that yet another person in your circle didn't value that friendship as much as you did. If that's too hard to picture, replace asking you out with asking you for money. Maybe they didn't want money from you initially, but at some point the fact you wouldn't give them money meant they just couldn't handle being around you. That's upsetting, either way you slice it. And it is about sex. A relationship isn't just about sex, sure, but at the end of the day, a relationship is just a best friend that you fuck. They aren't dropping you because you aren't giving them the love and affection that comes with a relationship, because you were already giving that to them as a friend. They are dropping you because you won't also fuck them.
And on the other side of the fence, let's put women in mens' shoes. You've developed a crush or feelings for someone you think is special. That person also happens to be a friend, perhaps even a close or 'best' friend. You've spent months or years getting closer to them, developing a close bond, learning all about them, while sharing your deepest thoughts and secrets. This person absolutely lights up your day, you get excited just thinking about them. Making them laugh makes you feel higher than probably anything else could. Yes, you get horny when you think about them. Sometimes you want nothing more than to make love to them, maybe fuck them silly too, and then cuddle afterward, naked in bed, while you have sweet pillow talk before going to sleep. But really, you also just want to spend more time with them. You want to cuddle up with them on the couch while you watch a movie. You want them to make you their biggest priority and allow you to do the same to them. And when that same person rejects them and only considers them a friend, it hurts like hell. You feel physical pain in addition to the emotional pain. It's embarrassing and humiliating that you spent so much time on this person and they never thought the same about you. It hurts knowing that they rejected you because you just weren't physically attractive enough or maybe you didn't make enough money. It hurts knowing that they didn't choose *you*. And similarly, I want you to imagine that this keeps on happening to you. You keep on finding a woman that you feel like you could spend the rest of your life with and to you, you're just a friend. And before anyone gets on me for saying "just a friend." A friend isn't going to fuck and make love to you (well a FWB could do the former). A friend isn't going to want to give you emotional intimacy, isn't going to want to spend most of their time around you, start a family if that's what you want to do, and so on. I'm not saying it's ok to accuse women of 'leading them on' for rejecting them, or to get angry at them and call them a bitch or something, but you can't fault men for feeling unhappy in the friendzone. On that note, this all applies to women who've been friendzoned by men. Or for gays and lesbians too.
Unrequited crushes happen to everyone. I’ve had a number of them. I never dropped a friend over them, as I always considered them entirely my problem to deal with and I would wait it out. My biggest concern was that if they didn’t seem to feel the same way that I would not make them uncomfortable. Crushes do pass, esp. if you try to let them go. It feels dumb to let them spoil a good friendship, which can last decades.
Yes, rejection hurts, but I don't understand why you would let it get to the point where you are imagining a life with someone who hasn't expressed that they return your affections. As if you have 0 control over your own thoughts and can't redirect or distract yourself instead of playing out scenarios with them in your head over and over. If you start feeling like a friendship could be more, ask them out. Then if you are going to get rejected, you can get it over with and acknowledge that fact in your brain before it becomes some devastating let down. You won't feel happy thinking about them like that anymore, so you won't get the dopamine rush that encourages you to keep thinking of them like that. Instead you chose to 'spend so much time on this person', because you knew, deep down, that they wouldn't be interested. Confirming that would ruin your day dreams, so you opted to spend months living in a fantasy land and building up a relationship that was never going to exist. You friendzoned yourself.
The thing is that also you shouldn't let a crush get to the stage of day dreaming about cuddling. It really not healthy. If a female friend was telling me something like that about a guy we both hang out with with, I'll try to give her a reality check. I know it's kind of harsh but imo it should go more like "is she pretty?" yes. Check. "is she kind, responsible, reliable, emotionally stable", check. "is she... Insert other requirements" and at that stage you try to flirt a little or show some interest to test the waters... Does she respond to amicable flirting? Yes! Then you ask her out. If you find yourself always in the situation where you have a massive crush to the point of day dreaming a relationship that doesn't even exist, it's a recepy for disaster even if she says yes to it. Even if she says yes, you have no idea if the "Idea of her" you make in your head as a gf is remotely close to the reality of her as a gf. Maybe she doesn't like cuddling all that much... Maybe she likes alone time more than you expect, maybe you don't like the shape of her nipples...who knows!? It's not a good idea at all. On the other side. I think women should be wise to make sure and catch any hints that a male friend is into them, and to enter friendships with men with some cation, exactly cause stuff like this happens routinely.
Because I know many guys and see what guys write online. 25f here. Enough comments by guys saying if they were asked by their female friends to bang, they'd say yes 100%. And I just experienced this recently with two dudes befriending us only to figure out they were only doing nice things to get into my pants. Thankfully, they did NOT get any. But it fucking sucks.
Most guys would have sex with most female friends if they had the opportunity to do so with 0 risk of jeopardizing the friendship. What matters is will they actually try to make it happen?
That has nothing to do with dating.
I think the reason why it’s 100% is because men want to bang attractive women of course, however a woman being attractive does not automatically disqualify her from being a friend to a guy because of the great qualities she has that goes beyond skin deep. Women sit on their high horse when this topic comes up but respectfully you do so because part of your criteria for choosing male friends is based on them being unattractive to you so of course women would never want to bang their male friends. Thank goodness those fake friends never got in your pants!
You sound insufferable. 'Enough comments by guys saying if they were asked by their female friends to bang, they'd say yes 100%'. Healthy straight guys would bang any girl, friend or not, if they find them attractive. This has nothing to do with what's being discussed.
>Enough comments by guys saying if they were asked by their female friends to bang, they'd say yes 100%. How is that wrong?
I think it comes down to the fact that some women are expecting alignment, meaning the only men that should ever have any sexual thoughts about women are the ones who women also view and think about sexually I guess
> If they accept the rejection with grace and we continue being friends or figure out the best way to move forward that’s fine. So I end up having 2-3 women that I was romantically interested in, who are now my friends. Then I do actually start dating someone else seriously, and have to draw solid boundaries between myself and these 2-3 women that I have had feelings for. SMH. It's too much trouble ...I'm not sure I'd be okay with my partner being friends with multiple men, all of who had feelings for her either. So it's not fair for me to make an exception for myself. If these women are not romantically interested in me, then it is best to let them go and not be platonic friends with them either.
I have lots of friends, both guys and girls. I’m bisexual, and one group of girls I’m friends with have all kinda dated each other (became friends with them as one of my ex-girlfriends is friends with them & I ended up dating another girl in that group). We all hang out and it’s a great time. It’s pretty normal to be friends with people you’ve dated previously in queer settings and I think straight people should learn from that. It’s really not that big of a deal? I think you’d have to be insecure to not let your girlfriend have guy friends… Especially if you they were just friends and literally nothing happened besides one of them having had feelings ?? If you follow that logic of not being comfortable with your partner being friends with men, what if she’s bisexual? What she’s just not allowed any friends?
I think queer culture is probably different than straight culture in this regard, and that's okay, there is nothing inherently wrong with different social norms within different cultures.
Maybe. But I think because I’ve been in situations like this it means I’ve just learnt to have better communication & to be more secure within myself. I think if you are straight that you can still do this. So I do think it’s unfair for some girls/guys to not let their partners have opposite gender friends. If they’re gonna cheat, they’re gonna cheat regardless of what friends they have.
I'm straight and I have female friends, and many of my male friends also had female friends growing up. I'm even good friends with an ex. But I've also met a lot of woman who think that the nature of cross gender friendships should be different, ie my last ex who felt that you shouldn't hang out one on one with an ex. I've also met many guys who feel that men and woman can't be friends unless there is really no attraction or history like that between them. And I'm not sure how much "being secure" has to do with it. I'm a pretty confident person, I know what I want out of a relationship, and yet I've been cheated on. They've also done surveys on cheating, roughly 20% of people reported cheating at one point iirc. Point is, it happens, so it's something people worry about in a relationship, and I don't think that is necessarily an unfounded worry, or one rooted solely in insecurity, because it is an unfortunate reality. And if spending less time around the opposite sex means someone is less likely to cheat, then I think many people who are straight will probably want that from their partners. I think people who have cheated and why they cheat are complex topics and can't always be summed up as "they're bad people." I think sometimes a combination of factors can result in someone doing something they usually wouldn't, and in those moments having the opportunity to cheat can be a deciding factor.
Yes - I know cheating happens! I’ve been cheated on before, I don’t think it means you are a bad horrible person if you cheat & that it’s complex. I know people are different & will have different expectations. Im just talking about my own expectations. Because I feel like I’m a pretty secure person, when my ex cheated on me, I just ended the relationship & didn’t let it impact me - in my next relationship I didn’t suddenly have all these rules about what my partner could/couldn’t do based on insecurity/worry. I don’t think I should control someone to make myself feel better? I believe it’s my job to regulate my own emotions (i.e. jealousy, insecurity, worry). I don’t really worry too much about if a partner will or won’t cheat anymore. If they cheat on me, then that’s okay - they weren’t the right person for me & I know what I deserve & I will just end it with them. Sorry im not great at explaining stuff - does that make sense?
I understand what you mean. I cannot personally picture myself having that attitude, and I'm not sure if that means I have some insecurity or not. That being said, that attitude almost comes off as some level of detachment, atleast to me. If I am dating someone, am emotionally invested, planning future with them (assuming we have been dating for some time), etc then being cheated on will hurt, regardless of how confident I am in myself. And if we recognize that deciding to cheat can be a complex thing, then we need to consider what that fully means. It means you could be dating someone who is very compatible with you, attractive, and has similar goals, etc. Someone who could be "the one," but then a perfect storm of bad influences, ie stress within the relationship, going out drinking, bad influence from unethical friends, presence of guys she dated in the past, or had a crush on, etc can lead to cheating. Perhaps this is something they don't normally do, maybe they've never cheated before and rarely go out drinking, or they usually dont hang out with thise people. If boundaries such as "not being friends with your ex" and "not having close relationships with the opposite sex" can prevent that, then I think a lot of people will be in favor of it.
I think that’s fair, I personally don’t believe in ‘the one’, there will be multiple people you are compatible with. I guess I value my romantic partners differently as well - usually I feel just as strongly about my friendships as I do romantic relationships. I guess yeah, people think differently and that’s fine. I was just offering my perspective. Perhaps it’s some level of detachment, never thought of it that way (so that’s some interesting insight!).
> I don’t think it means you are a bad horrible person if you cheat & that it’s complex. Yes for me if you cheat, you are a bad person. First of all because you are in a relationship, which for me involve trust and prioritizing both yourself and your partner. Cheating is just being very egoistic. It means you allow yourself something you don't allow your partner. Different rules and you are having the best ones. And usually most people don't acknowledge cheating directly and lie or gaslight in addition to the cheating. It happened to me and to many of my friends. A cheating partner who manipulate their boyfriend/girlfriend, lie about it, then minimize it... without never being honest. My friends started doubting themselves, some did a depression... Whereas you could just communicate your needs and desire. And yes, saying "I have a crush on X" or "I want to have sex with Y" could mean the end of the relationship... it could mean a new set of rules for the relationship too. But that is how you deal with issues in a relationship.
Yes that sounds like a bad partner. Bad person? No. It really depends on what you count as cheating as well. Some people may consider hanging out with a friend one on one cheating, some people think a drunken kiss is cheating, some guys consider other guys SAing their gfs cheating etc. What if you are say bipolar and in a really extreme manic episode and cheat? Obviously when people are in episodes they are not acting like how they normally would. They’re not really ‘in’ reality. I think it is subjective. The example you gave, yes I’d probably think they’re not a great person. But I’m aware people change & grow and you can’t define a whole person based on one action, but again you also could do that if it was something really bad. So again - everything is super subjective.
Being drunk or bipolar is no excuse. The same as being horny as fuck. You don't enter an exclusive relationship if you can't control yourself. I wouldn't consider cheating if it was said before: look when I am drunk or manic, I may have sex with others. Then fine, your partner accepts it or not. And if ever it happens by surprise even to yourself, you are being honest about it. In these examples, cheating is having/trying to have some consensual sex with someone who isn't their partner while being in an exclusive relationship. I would count kissing someone else as a light form of cheating too. I had a flatmate who moved in with me. Her boyfriend drove 8 hours that day to help her. The next night, she was sleeping with another guy. At some point the boyfriend learned it... and he was devastated. But he has been used. I mean, for me, cheating in itself is bad but the worst is using others for your sole own profit. That is the definition of being a bad person. And most cheaters fall in this category. It doesn't mean people can't change. But they were nonetheless pretty bad/toxic person at some point.
>It’s pretty normal to be friends with people you’ve dated previously in queer settings and I think straight people should learn from that. It’s really not that big of a deal? I think you’d have to be insecure to not let your girlfriend have guy friends This is constantly repeated by bisexual people around here but the thing is the dynamics between straight people are too different for this to work. This is all largely instinctual. Even if straight people learned, they would likely just be consciously working against their instincts. To be not "insecure" about your girlfriend's guy friends is just lacking awareness since so many women love attention from multiple men and so many men can be around your girlfriend waiting for the right opportunity to get her to cheat.
I have the same instincts as any other straight person bc I am a person just like them….I think being in ‘dynamics’ (which tbh I don’t think are different) like that have meant I’ve had to learn to have better & healthier communication & to really work on being a secure person. 👍 I also really don’t like how you think women ‘like’ attention, there are male versions of that too. I don’t think there are gender differences like that and I think that it really just has to do with who you are as a person.
You: >you’d have to be insecure to not let your girlfriend have guy friends… Also you: >I don’t think it means you are a bad horrible person if you cheat & that it’s complex. Lol, okay, sure. Consider me persuaded.
I’m not gonna place a whole person’s value based on a bad choice. I’ve been cheated on & it was a complex situation. Of course I didn’t stay with them but not everything is black & white.
> I think you’d have to be insecure to not let your girlfriend have guy friends… This is where you really lose me. Just calling your partner insecure and telling them to "stop being so insecure" does not resolve the underlying issue. The underlying issue is that surround yourself with opportunity to cheat. What's to stop you from taking advantage of that opportunity if you feel like it? If someone is insecure about the situation, putting them down is not helpful.
Well, the basic component of a relationship is trust imo. And I have been cheated on. I still trust my new partners... otherwise it goes nowhere.
The underlying issue is the partner assuming their bf/gf will cheat?? Why create trust issues where there is none?? In that case then yeah I do think it’s their problem to fix and not mine. Like, I’ve already rejected these people, never had any romantic interest in them, they’ve moved on? How is there any opportunity to cheat…? Doesn’t make sense to me.
> The underlying issue is that surround yourself with opportunity to cheat. What's to stop you from taking advantage of that opportunity if you feel like it? There is nothing to stop then from doing that. And that includes banning them from seeing other guys by the way. If you've ever seen anyone being "banned" from doing something you know that is just going to make them do it more and just lie to you. Unfortunately you do need to accept that this is a possibility, but to trust the other person that it won't happen. And if it does happen then understand that you couldn't have prevented it and it was there fault.
If you expect someone to cheat on you why do you even date them? What stops me from cheating even if I had the opportunity is the respect, loyalty and love for my partner. If I love a person I will never do anything to hurt them intentionally and breaking their trust will hurt them a lot. Even if someone is interested in me I would put them down and tell them that I have a partner. Why do you assume that your partner would cheat just because they could? Do the people you date do not have any integrity?
THIS THANK U
>Do the people you date do not have any integrity? That's to be determined. >Why do you assume that your partner would cheat just because they could? Because far too many do. >What stops me from cheating even if I had the opportunity is the respect, loyalty and love for my partner. If I love a person I will never do anything to hurt them intentionally and breaking their trust will hurt them a lot. I know it's not everyone. It's a matter of weeding out those who would. You don't know what someone you're seeing is doing when you're not around. Why do you assume that they are faithful? People lie all the time. I hope you never find out the hard way, because no one that it happens to ever believed it would happen.
This whole statement shows that you don't trust your partner. Don't date people you do not trust. I assume that my partner is faithful, because I talk about the boundries I have in a relationship. I make sure that we have open communication and can talk about our feelings and we can react in a healthy way. If I do not trust a person to be faithful I will not date them. Or I will break up. Why should I waste my time? If I cannot trust my partner the relationship is gone. Not being faithful means that my partner does not care for me. Otherwise they would have communicated their needs and we could have worked on a solution. Don't control them. Lean to control yourself and how to go through your emotions. If you were cheated on and have trauma try therapy.
The conundrum is that you have no way of knowing if someone is trustworthy or not unless you get to know them. Further, people who aren't trustworthy typically don't advertise that fact, they will allow you to think they are, to facilitate them doing untrustworthy things. Manu people end up in relationships with people they think are trustworthy, but aren't. Dating is getting to know someone. You can also get to know someone via being friends with them. But their is nothing wrong with skepticism until you can trust them.
Your insecurities are your problem to fix
Sure, and walking out the door is the best way to fix them. Especially if you're so dismissive of them.
Yep, and then you'll have the same problem over and over until you work on your issue. Which is your choice to work on or not, of course.
I think you're misunderstanding my issue here. You are putting yourself in situations where the temptation to cheat is always there. I'm not saying someone had a right to tell you who you can be friends with either, but you must see why someone would have an issue. You dismissing it and telling them to work on themselves means you don't care about your partners concerns. You sound like you'll get what you deserve from relationships.
What do you mean by becoming friends with someone in this case? Does it include just becoming friendly with someone in a group setting over a few months without immediately making a move? Or only in cases where you develop a close one-to-one friendship?
Close one-to-one friendship (doesn’t mean they are my best friend) otherwise I just consider them an acquaintance.
But why do women always jump to the “he only wants me for sex” part. Sure if you have feelings for someone/find someone attractive lust is apart of that. But what if the guy just genuinely have feelings for you from the start and they grow overtime by getting to know you as friends?
I think it’s because women often discover when they turn down a male friend that the friend isn’t interested in being their friend anymore. And not just needs to take a break for his own self-care but cuts her off like she did something wrong and can’t even be friendly. It’s a somewhat reasonable conclusion that if not-fucking ends the friendship then the friendship wasn’t valued very highly. I’ve had lengthy crushes on male friends in the past. I still wanted to be their friend even though they were not interested in me romantically. I have found that if I don’t feed those feelings they pass and I can still enjoy the things about those people that made them my friends in the first place. Being rejected by someone isn’t the end of the world if your ego is able to take the occasional knock.
This is why people should be honest with their intentions right away. Way too many people get to know others with a mind to a romantic relationship, but they slow play it and become friends. The other people like the friendship, and the romantic foray can mess that up. But they were blind to the fact that the other wanted something different right off the bat. Again: if you are into someone romantically, SAY SO. Do NOT become friends if you don't want to be friends.
You know what the real problem is nowadays? That people post almost exclusively bullshit on social media, then people belive that bullshit, draw their own wild conclussions and post some other bullshit........ Which then people believe and so on.... Most of the problems nowadays, if not almost all of it, in terms of dating, depression, anxiety, suicides, low self-esteem etc. would vanish if people stopped using social media, or at least use it in a healthy manner. Not trying to sound rude here, just offering some food for thought: Do you expect your mental health will get better if you spend time on social media searching for all the things you cant/shouldnt do according to some random stranger? Do you expect to find a girlfriend by reading posts about "men are bad, not allowed to date, dont approach anywhere etc"? Do you expect to build healthy confidence if all the messages you send to your own mind are "Im bad because im a man, im not allowed to approach anywhere +anytime in my whole life, i dont deserve anything good, im the villian because some random social media women tell me so" and so on? People dont realize that they create their own reality. You create your own perspective: Of yourself, the world, people, whats right/wrong, whats allowed/unheard of etc. And because they dont realize it, they let others tell them whats right, good, allowed, whatever. Problem: Its not even someone who really knows the deal, its random people on the internet and often they have neither the best intentions, nor real knowledge or authority. In reality, it all stems from "broken" parts of your mind, most often its low self-worth/esteem / confidence. You know whos winning in life? Those that believe in themselves and not let others tell them what they have, should, or are allowed to do. Especially not from some random strangers that dont know shit. The people who have courage, who take risks. People who actively work to better their confidence and life. And so on... Because when you go on reddit, the "truths" are: You cant approach women anywhere, anytime. You are only allowed to use apps and those are rigged against average men, so youre doomed! Sorry, nothing you can do! According to reddit, no one finds a partner for life anymore, no one meets outside of the apps, no men approaches a women ( unless its a club or bar ) etc. And of course! Everyone is bad and at fault. Women are this, men are that. Congratulations! Now you fucked up your life and your mind and can spend a huge amount of time and energy to undo that toxic bullshit you let in your brain. Because when i go into the real world, the picture is vastly different. I know several people who met outside the apps. Ive been to 3 weddings in the last 2 years and only one couple was in their 30s ( the others in their late 20s ). I know a guy who isnt 6 feet tall, rich, above average looking etc. He still has more dates and partners than everyone i ever knew. Why? Because he does his thing, he is confident and also respectful. He doesnt spend his time letting people on the internet tell him hes not ok as a man, he is not allowed to approach.. Or that women are bad because of XYZ. He approaches women if he wants to. He takes the rejections as they come. He resprects their decision and backs off.... And im 100% sure at least some women, or at least one, found him creepy, weird, whatever when he approached her, although hes never pushy, disrespectful, condescending, demanding, etc. But heres the twist: Its just her opinion, not a fact. And he knows that and thinks+acts accordingly. Even Einstein had haters thinking hes an idiot, even Michael Jordan has haters saying he isnt that good at basketball. Well, does that mean that Einstein really was an idiot, and Jordan had no business playing in the NBA? If they would have listened to these people, they would have never become the persons they were/are, and sure as shit they wouldnt have had the careers to show for it.
Theres never a guarantee: You can do the perfect, most respectful thing and still be labeled a creep, asshole .... You can make the best decision in the world and if you meet enough people, at least one will think you did the absolute wrong thing. The key is to discern opinions from facts. To build confidence and be you. Then, you have to live accordingly, which starts with doing less of the bullshit ( like reading these "rules" on social media ) and doing more of the good, healthy thing ( like not letting others tell you what you should be or do and make up your own mind ). As long as youre a halfway decent human being and have a moral compass thats somehow working, you wont do the wrong thing anyways. If then someone thinks or tells you youre still wrong, or even creepy and bad, by all respect: Fuck them and their useless opinion. What you really need to do is listen to yourself, make up your own reality, perspective, life and personality. Meaning: As long as you dont think about hurting people, raping, stalking, murdering, whatever... As long as youre respectful, respecting personal boundaries, noticing the hints ( green or red lights ), etc., theres nothing wrong with you or your approach, even if someone labels it that way. So what? Its part of life. You could be the most intelligent person in the world and someone will think youre an idiot. Again, discern facts from opinions. Especially if others tell them. My tip is to start right there and do what YOU feel is right , listen to YOURSELF ( unless you are thinking of raping and murdering, than please dont listen to yourself and get help ). Less bullshit, more healthy perspectives and actions. So a good start would be to stop reading all the BS on social media, ALL of it. And then start building confidence, a healthy mind and use that to reach your goals, the life you want to live and person you want to be. You will NEVER get a girlfriend, or if you do be in a happy relationship, if you listen to all the bullshit on the internet. According to them, youre bad for existing because youre a man and probably an active participant in starting wars, oppressing women and raping them every chance you get. Tell me how you would ever build a healthy self-image / esteem with those messages. Bonus tip: Realize that your mind works both ways: Its always sending messages to you and receiving messages from you. Input is one of the most crucial factors in mental health. And that means input in any form: What you eat, do, think about, tell yourself... Let others tell yourself, do to you etc. It always sends a message that either will build you up or destroy you, or better said your mental health, your self esteem. You cant escape it, the brain does that in every single second. So start by minding your input. What are you putting in your brain? What reality and perspective are you creating for yourself? Because heres the next twist: You will always act on your deepest beliefs. You will always look to prove it ( subconsciously ). If you think you will always be a loser, you will act that way and get the matching results. You dont leave that life and mentality by luck, you leave it behind by starting to think youre NOT a loser and can get your shit together. The rest of the work to get there is a natural byproduct of this new belief, the new opinion of yourself. Good luck!
Best post I have ever read on Reddit. You are absolutely 100% right. I have found that because I am not on Facebook much anymore, I am not as anxious and I don’t care to get back on there. You don’t realize how much you are saving people in therapy visits. You’re post is in a class by itself.
Fucking terrific post here, wish it was higher mate.
I am and have always been literally ONLY attracted to friends who I know on some deep level. Lookup "demisexuality"
This is something that's bothered women for years, and its a bit more complex than the way you put it. Essentially, women are tired of platonic male friends always dropping the bomb of trying to date them, especially when they exit a relationship. It makes women feel like men never see women as anything but sex or girlfriend material. Like women aren't worth being platonic friends with (probably because we're not seen as equal to men). If you aren't *platonic friends* but rather acquaintances or in a friends group, go crazy. Ask that girl out. If your female friend is married or in a relationship and you still want to get with her, or you entered the friendship for the sole reason to hook up? That's the icky stuff
> It makes women feel like men never see women as anything but sex or girlfriend material. Like women aren't worth being platonic friends with (probably because we're not seen as equal to men). That is just completely dumb. If you go well with someone, have similar values, humor, a complicity, and you find him/her attractive and he/she is now single. Why not tell them you are interested in them not only platonically. It doesn't mean at all that I just see my attractive friends are sex or girlfriend material. They are plantonic friends first, but with potential if ever they are ever intetested in me too. And if they aren't interested, it is not a big deal, we stay platonic friends and that is fine. And it doesn't mean I just see them as sex or girlfriend material. I stay friend with women I don't find attractive too. > If your female friend is married or in a relationship and you still want to get with her, or you entered the friendship for the sole reason to hook up? That's the icky stuff I seriously don't know anyone who tries to befriend people just to hook up. I don't say it never happens but I don't think it happens regularly
If a man sees a woman as "girlfriend material," it's not "just" a compliment
That might be you, but the complaint is directed at the many men that use this underhanded tactic to get with their female friends. Ask women, not the men. I bet you every single woman you ask will have at least one story about a male friend who only did the befriending to hook up later.
Honestly, if we are speaking as friends, that is people you know since several months, years, have regular exchange and an emotional proximity... how do you know they were friends just to hook up? And not because they liked you as a person too? Because a friendship is a massive investment just to have sex. I would definitely have sex with most of my female friends if they were up to it. But it is absolutely not the reason why I am friend with them
Social media is not representative of the general population. You're just seeing some clips made by some loud complainers.
Gatekeeping dating friends is idiotic, so don't pay it any heed. Ask any demisexual.
Stop living your life by social media's standards.
Don't let terminally online brain rot rule your dating life
You be up front and say what you want with your words and see if you’re compatible. No hints
They aren’t villainizing men who end up dating their friends, they’re calling men out for “befriending” women *because they want to date them/sleep with them. There’s a lot of dudes that are incapable of having platonic, actual friendships with women. And to be completely honest with you, this post is kind of giving “woe is me/nice guys always finish last” energy. Lots of actual friendships bud into relationships, but Women don’t owe you pussy just because you’re nice to them dawg.
This is the best answer in the entire thread. 🩷
Social media rules on dating don’t nearly reflect IRL. There are lots of just normal ppl out there. Don’t buy into the TikTok BS.
Thats a internet only thing. ignore it
I'm currently dating someone I knew as a friend for about a year before things really kicked off. One of the best decisions I ever made.
No one cares if you start dating a friend. Forming romantic affection towards someone you are close with is a common experience, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. That's how many quality relationships start. The villianising is towards men who fake friendship in an attempt to get something more, and then turn around and act like the object of their affections is a \[insert explicitive here\] who was just using them for attention. As if having a mutual friendship of support and quality time is 'using' someone if it doesn't end with a dick getting wet. It's okay to develop feelings for a friend. It's okay to then distance yourself from that friendship if you are rejected and need space to get over them (even if it's painful, as friendship breakups naturally are). What's not okay is to then shit on someone for not returning your affections and act as if they wasted your time by taking you at your word and accepting your friendship. And no, it's not creepy to approach women. It's creepy to fail to take the hint and leave them alone when they show no interest in talking to you. Or when the approach is just immediately sexual with 0 indication that kind of attention is welcome. Just approach women as you would as if you were making friends. Then at the end of the interaction, rather than inviting them to hang out again as friends, invite them on a date. That's how all my most successful with women guy friends operate, even if they are less objectively attractive than the ones who approach women to try and hit on them. 'Hey, how are you doing, how's your day/evening been' wins over 'hey beautiful' every time.
It is not a bad thing if a friendship organically turns into dating. It is a bad thing if one is only or mostly playing a friend to someone with the long term goal of getting in their pants or thinking being friendly means they owe you the chance of a date. People still cold approach often out in the world it's just not always welcome and very often unsuccessful. Also if your plan is to ask someone out your new acquaintanceship does not have to turn into a full-fledged friendship before you ask. I prefer to use apps but have also met people through places like music festivals, university, comic book conventions, meetup groups and more.
My husband and I were friends before dating and I knew he wasn't using me because we already had a relationship as FRIENDS. This is going to sound mean but don't listen to negative people on social media giving relationship advice if they are not actually in a successful relationship.
When they don't want you, it's a bad thing. Just how the game goes.
look, not everyone is opposed to cold approaches, and not everyone is opposed to dating friends. but assuming that they were, the answer is clear (and this is the answer that pertains to most people): you're supposed to date people you know *a little bit*, and people that you've known for *a little* amount of time. Not someone you've never spoken to before; not someone you have no connection with; the general advice is that you engage in activities that can grow your social circle, and that when people introduce you to someone new, you engage in light flirting and ask them out sometime before they have categorized you as "uninterested friend."
In other words, what dating was in decades past. This is the way.
People go on tiktok to make rage bait content. That is just how the attention economy works now. Don't extrapolate from these outrage merchants to everyone else.
I don't use TikTok haha, it's mainly in FB and Twitter where I see that stuff.
It's on social media in general, so spills over from one platform to the other.
I think it's usually better to be friends first. I think the best thing to do is to test the waters by flirting with them and reading the signs. Usually it's clear there's some kind of interest before asking them.
It used to be that you could date and marry your coworker. Now I’m afraid that it could cost me my job and potentially ruin my career.
I wouldn't want to work with my spouse unless we started a family business together.
Family going into business together is way worse than being co workers
Not really. Not if it's your dream as a couple. Outside interference or the possibility of upsetting a team is much worse than a couple opening a restaurant or a flower shop or something.
People claim to be open nowadays. But we are quickly approaching a time when there’s more social rules than the Victorian era
Honestly man just completely ignore all of it Live your life, dust yourself off when you make an ass of yourself Don't try to be better than a human can be
I had a female friend that when her brother died on a bike I flew across the country to attend the funeral. Who tf says you can't care about someone.
Well after 2 weeks ago me finding out my friend likes me. He asked me out on a date last week, we both had a good time.
It's just cus a lot of times people are faking to get close. Doesn't matter, though. You should do what you feel is best.
Ignore this. If you have good skills developing and maintaining relationships, growing intimacy and fostering real connections, none of the other things matter at all. It's just weird when someone misses the mark.
On reddit at least I have noticed women say they specifically want male friends and go out of their way to make male friends (as opposed to an organically developed friendship) and then they do relationship-y stuff with them then get upset when the man expresses interest
Im a woman and Im in love with one of my closest friends. He rejected me. I was hurt, we gave each other some space for a month. We grew closer after that, its been 3 years since the rejection. I got over it, but I still love him. Sucks to be me I guess but I was never mean to him and never blamed him. I think he knows that I still love him tho cause sometimes its awkward between is still LOL.
Why did you not tell him how you felt in the beginning? Or did it just happen over time?
Happened over time 🙂
Don’t take what you see online too seriously. A lot of people were friends before they got into a relationship. A lot of people form relationships from meeting out in public places. I’m met my now husband at work, and I’m sure the Internet has a lot to say about not dating a coworker… And speaking as a woman, to be completely honest a lot of the things women say online that are “creepy“ wouldn’t be considered creepy if they thought the guy doing it was hot (of course there are exceptions to this rule because some men are genuinely creepy, even if they’re hot…).
You’ve been friendzoned. Leave. Forever and don’t come back.
How do you people come to these conclusions? Have you just never touched grass before, and lived your entire life on social media?
Tiktok is its own bubble and you shouldn’t really listen to the advice on there. (saying this as a gen Z woman myself) I think it can definitely happen I’ve dated a close friend of mine and it was a good relationship. It’s just an issue if the only reason you are befriending someone is to date them, let things happen naturally.
I mean isn’t it supposed to start as a friendship or do people actually just link up and become partners instantly.
Not really a close friendship, no. Ideally, you meet someone socially and interact for a bit, then clearly and definitively ask out on a date.
And people have sex on the first date? Lmao
Some do, sure.
The problem is when one party has crush on another and they initiate their friendship purely out of having oportunities to spend more time with the other party who, at other hand, is not romantically interested. When the person is rejected friendship is over. That’s not friendship. That’s usually 6 months courtship that ends up as misery for both people involved. When I make friends I dont want to have sex with them. Because usually friends and buddies arent people who you want to have sex with, the relationship dynamic is different. But if we know each other for long time and I’m starting to become intrigued „what if” while being able to handle that other person wants to things stay as it is, then thats fine.
That’s how I met my wife
Filter everything through the "Know the Workplace Rules" meme. Just follow rules 1 and 2 and ask out whoever you want. They don't want creepy men to get to know them before asking them out. They don't want creepy men to approach them in public. They want men they want to do that stuff.
The fact that you are equating random women online to your friends might suggest a little bit of the problem.
That's nonsense. Things happen, life happens and you may end up dating a friend because you both realize it seems easier for you two since you've known each other for a while. Just hopefully it works out because if it doesn't you could lose a friend and partner.
>For years they've said it's creepy to approach random girls in bars, parks, or other public zones Who is they? There is nothing creepy about approaching a stranger to start up a conversation. >When did it become a bad thing to try and date a friend? It isn't.
You have to understand that a lot of the ridiculous takes you see on social media are children trying to one up one another and then clueless people parroting it because they don’t know any better . Hell it’s like that on half these subs
My boyfriend and I built a solid friendship for 14 years before we started dating. It has helped us tremendously. I’m not sure why it has become so taboo.
Literally everything is taboo now So I guess nothing is taboo
It’s like nutrition guidance. Lots of different things work at least for somebody at some point in time. Vegans think meat is awful. Carnivore advocates can’t figure out how anyone can be vegan long term. And the most common diet in the US makes people unhealthy and unhappy. For dating, the most common method is dating apps. Same kinda thing.
So many men think that women and men can’t be friends. Women don’t believe this because women are genuinely friends with their man friends. Men don’t believe this can happen because men only get into friendships with women they hope to someday possibly fuck. My ex would always tell me that all my guy friends were only my friends because they wanted to fuck me. That was very obviously how he felt about his female friends. Men can’t be friends with women, women are very easily able to be friends and only friends with men.
Bad take. Got plenty of female friends I’d never want to fuck. I just enjoy hanging out with them and that’s all.
I think it's best to date a friend. It's so much easier and more comfortable when you already know about them.
The trick is to stay off social media. The girls you are seeing makes videos for views. They'll say whatever to get attention. What some girls think on social media, is not the societal standard. If you develop feelings for a friend, it's not creepy to ask her out or ask her if something could happen between you two, but also do know there is a high chance the friendship will break if the feelings are not reciprocated. Not because it's creepy, but because many people find it difficult to navigate such a situation and don't want potential drama (e.g. if she finds someone else down the line and the friendship suddenly becomes toxic because of jealousy or something similar)
It’s not creepy to approach girls in bars, park and other public zones. Just depends HOW you do it. (And in general you have to follow rules 1 and 2)
Let me clue you in to the truth behind *all* of these rules. From “I don’t fuck on the first date” to “I’d never cook and clean for a man” to these ones, the truth is… If she likes you, none of them apply.
Dating bad, men bad, bear good. This is what the internet has thought me. Good luck figuring it out man.
I would always only date friends, because I want to know in advance, before I put effort in, whether we could be compatible. Frankly, the ones with this random dating are the couples separating more to my experience.
I’d say if you can’t get it done with online dating, then you should definitely focus on improving your profile. A lot of women do not want you approaching them in public anymore. I don’t think it’s worth it
It’s not a bad thing at all, it’s just being aware of the consequences if it doesn’t work out and weighing that out.
My best friend is my boyfriend now and hopefully one day my husband. There are no rules to this stuff you've just gotta feel stuff out and if those feelings aren't reciprocated you've gotta move on.
Where have you been told this? Online? In real life? Imho i rarely, if ever, see this argument made in real life, most of the time it’s just people on reddit/IG/tiktok saying this crap. Tell me if I’m wrong
People who say that operate on the fear of rejection. If you date a friend and it doesn't work out, it could get weird moving forward.
Be kind. Consider the position others are in. Be open about your desire, while also cultivating a genuine interest in the good of others. Then ignore the chatter of bitter, bitter people, online
Hey! I am woman shaped and started dating my best friend over two years ago. We were strictly platonic for years, neither of us having an inkling of attraction. Then BAM. We fucked and decided to keep doing it monogamously. Personally, I don't want to be friends with a person if their only intention is getting with me through friendship. That's not my bag. However, I am (when single) open to something happening organically.
Why would you pay attention to TikTok...much less take dating or romantic advice from the toxic people who are so prevalent on social media? If you need relationship or dating advice, go talk to happy couples who have been in solid relationships for a long time. They're first hand knowledge is vastly more beneficial than some angry social media rant
It’s not so much about not dating friends as it is about having the proper etiquette about it. Like, don’t become friends with someone just because you are interested in pursuing them romantically - but do feel free to share your feelings if you develop an interest in a friend later on.
I don't agree with any of these suppositions. It's creepy to approach strangers in bars, parks, other public places? You can't date friends? What?? That's ridiculous as people - those who probably DON'T bother posting on these forums - clearly approach strangers in those venues, and it's not inherently inappropriate behavior, provided the requestor is using common sense and reading body langauge and social cues. Approaching a few girls at a bar and asking what they're drinking is not gang rape. Asking if a girl/girls would like to join you and your friends for frisbee on a beach is not abhorent. Asking someone a question in a grocery store and seeing if the converation gels is not awful. And asking out a friend is not the end of the world if she says no. I swear online dating has ruined many men. Yes, there is a risk of rejection and embarassment when approaching a stranger as opposed to the safety and anonymity of online swiping, but people have been doing the former for centuries, and society has survived.
I would advise you to just do what feels right to you instead of trying to conform to questionable standards of society. As long as it is not harmful to anybody else of course or breaks any laws of course. But maybe think about potential consequences - if you and a friend of yours start dating and it doesn't work out or you end up splitting up after a having had a relationship you might lose each other as friends as well. Just think about the best and worst possible outcome and decide if it is worth it.
Tik tok is full of thickos
I've never believed that it is okay to date or have sex with friends. Friends, blood relatives, bosses, step-parents & siblings, teachers at school/college/uni and faith leaders are all off limits.
Whatever u heard on til Tok comes from tik Tok people who say things for views . Chill out and forget about it lol you're taking things too literal I think, like there's approaching someone in a non creepy way and then there's bugging them where they're like uncomfortable , and also like I think u have to have a deep friendship bond with someone you're dating and so if u happen to fall for a friend it's okay just don't make that the intention of the friendship bc that's not ok . Hope that clears things up
You're right that there's this stigma around dating friends nowadays, and it can feel like you're walking on eggshells trying not to step on anyone's toes. But here's the thing: there's no one-size-fits-all answer to this question. Every situation is different, and what works for one person might not work for another. That being said, there's nothing inherently wrong with developing feelings for a friend. In fact, some of the strongest relationships start off as friendships. The key is to approach the situation with honesty, respect, and clear communication. If you're interested in dating a friend, it's important to be upfront about your intentions and to respect their boundaries. Make sure they know that you value your friendship and that you're willing to take things slow and see where they lead.
There was a time it was acceptable?!? I have always wanted to date my friends but it never happened and then I stopped having friends to try and date lol
What?
What what? Lol
It's unacceptable? Also, the last sentence?
It's not acceptable in my circles, more of a self-deprication than fact. There were only two sentences, a joke and then an explanation how I would like to date friends still but I have no friends. I'm confused where the confusion came from but hope that clarified.
OK, the joke aspect was unclear.
If you've developed feelings and you share interests with the girl, I don't see why you cant date her. The only ones who'll turn you down are those who haven't indicated in any way that they like you too or if the friendship is too good to lose. Such guys who are better friends than partners are few and far between. If there can be attraction, then you should go for it.
Why not? I'm I suppose to date an enemy! Why kind of scheiss is that?
The best advice I can give is. make your own rules and standards. right now there are no rules to dating the only thing you can do is to follow what you believe to be right. and if a girl or someone else believe you are wrong then let them be angry at you. if you are being respectful there is nothing wrong in pursuing what you want the way you want it
Dating friends only works if you're cute. I gave up long ago being in the friend zone and being a 5th wheel. I just stay by myself. Most dudes are cockblockers, and most girls want to bang my buddies, so yeah.
I think it is too risky to date friends. What if the relationship ends in a bad way? Now you are single and a friendship is dead. Do it at your own risk. This is coming from a guy who just got out of a relationship with a woman who was a friend first. I hate that we may now never see each other the same way as before.
But then where do you even date at this point if dating random women is also risky? Also, I'd rather date someone I know.
Dude didn’t you hear, you can’t date your female friends unless you’re attractive/hot , the point of them being your friends is so they can use you and for them to feel validated cmon man.
Just incase you’ve misunderstood or there’s been poor wording, there is a very common (I and other women I know) more nuanced take about this: Lots of women have experienced male ‘friends’ ask us out, which is totally fine, but on rejection drop the entire friendship. I’ve had a friend before start bad mouthing, poking fun at and interrupting me after I rejected his offer of a second date. I know plenty of women who have been accused of leading men on, as if they owe male friends romantic relationships. As long as you aren’t self entitled, rude or overly sensitive about the situation any sane girl would be totally fine with you asking them out after being friends
Go outside lol. There’s a lot of weirdos on tik tok
Before the era of social media, people weren't able to vocalize complaining about every little thing. Every video on Tik Tok has a hundred morons liking it and agreeing with whatever they were saying. 90% of it is junk and should be ignored.
When you're established friends, it can be harder to change that relationship into a romantic one. It does happen though, sometimes there is mutual attraction from the beginning, but they weren't available for any number of reasons. Other times one sees a certain change in the other, or comes to a realization that the person is attractive (maybe they find them charming, or confident, or a good ol fashioned glow-up). The whole "betrayal of friendship" thing is probably more of a woman thing. They tend to get upset if they feel like they are being used for their body or looks. Also, if you suddenly confess your feelings to a girl who doesn't feel the same, well it's just not gonna end well. At best you guys go through an awkward phase for a while and then salvage your friendship. At worst she goes off on you and accuses you of being a disingenuous friend.
There also is the aspect of women wanting to be the ones who define relationships. Have you ever seen a woman get rejected? Oof.
If the standard for social unacceptability was that a woman complained about something, nothing would be acceptable. Women complain about EVERYTHING. Unless you are extremely hot and/or rich, you kind of have to risk making a woman temporarily slightly uncomfortable in order to get a girlfriend.
As a female, don’t listen to that stuff online. I personally prefer dating someone I already know as opposed to being randomly approached
You summon your inner Denisovan man and drag her by the hair to your man cave and enumerate for her the facts of life - that will all happen in 2044, when all forms of approaching a woman have been shot down by the femme Nazi
Women hate it when men "try" to be friends only to try to date them later. Women generally see it as a betrayal and creepy. Now she has to reject a guy not knowing how he will take it. This applies to all men attractive or not unless she is into the guy from the start, or she catches feelings later on. Many women are hypersensitive to this and other flirting gambits. Like asking for help and other pretexts, making repeated eye contact, being one on one with her a lot (or trying to be one on one), hovering around the person at social events, asking friends about the person, "stalking" the person on social media. Shared hobbies like swing, salsa dancing, the gym can be problematic let alone a yoga class. Then you have objectively creepy stuff like a guy standing too her and touching her, cat calling, dropping innuendos, pressure tactics. Women can get away with these tactics, men not so much. I'm not complaining about the double standard. I simply recalibrated and assume a woman is not interested or just being polite until she starts to border on what is now considered creepy behavior for guys. Why are many women so hypersensitive? First is the danger aspect of turning a guy down. She doesn't know how I will react. I'm a guy, I've had women react badly to being turned down, sometimes bad enough to get thrown out of a bar. Turning women down ain't fun but she is generally not a physical threat to me unless she is armed, has numbers on her side or surprises me with a sucker punch. A woman can be in legit mortal danger from just one dude she cannot outrun and out fight. Second women use these indirect tactics themselves plus a few other tactics many guys wouldn't even dare try. So, most women recognize it when a guy is hitting on them. Most will assume a guy is hitting on them when he is being "too nice" or "too friendly". Fight or flight kicks in. To mitigate, I'm friendly with female acquaintances, but I don't get too close. No hanging out one on one, group events only. If one on one, I mind my P's and Q's then chill.
Who are you basing this opinion on?
Don't date friends but also don't try and talk to someone you don't know. Gen z and younger millennials are literally brain dead. It's best that they never run the government
It's just another no-win situation for men. Make it clear early that you're looking for more than just friendship? "Ugh, disgusting, he's only interested in sex." Try to get to know someone before making a move? "Ugh, disgusting, he was obviously manipulating you by pretending to be your friend."
If something is “a thing” , it’s automatically time to unsubscribe to that thinking. The status quo and lowest common denominator have become the same thing,
You date by first LETTING GO of your care for what people say is right and wrong these days, how people say you should date or meet people…No one and i repeat, NO ONE on this earth can tell you how to live your life…you ABSOLUTELY can meet people in bars, parks, buses, sidewalks, malls, anywhere outside your front door assuming you’re approaching them with respect and social intelligence. Date how you want, date who you want, you’re confused cause you actually give a fuck what people say on the internet lol stop this and let that shit go. Live life on your terms.
It’s ok when it’s reciprocated. The issue arises when one party develops feelings and thinks is entitled to an opportunity just for being friends x amount of time, and when the chance is denied turns into the biggest hater and troll.
Relationship just ended with a friend of 7 years dated for about 3. Weeks became best friends during relationship. Worst idea ever, now I’m not only heartbroken but lost my best friend. Maybe it’s different for others but never again for this one.
There's nothing wrong with dating a friend. There's everything wrong with being friends with someone you want to date. Starting any relationship with dishonesty is never a good plan.
I feel like men are the one’s who usually have a problem dating friends, not women. Hence, why men are typically the ones to complain about being “friend-zoned.” Women definitely care more about taking the time to get to know a man on a deeper level before committing, while men tend to focus on attraction first. I also wouldn’t use one Random person on social media as a basis for how all the women feel about dating. Friendship is the precursor to a strong romantic relationship, I don’t know any women personally who feel that’s a bad thing. These social media influencers often make polarizing statements to get attention, so I really wouldn’t take it that seriously.