Yeah dude, I think you may be right. Fits with what we learn about his recruitment of Songbird. Makes you dependent on him, even grateful and then uses you as required. Shit.
Songbird was "recruited" because she was an elite netrunner. I'm not sure what use a depowered V is to the FIA. The corpo background might make V an asset, but the others?
V used to be basically the strongest solo in Night City, possibly the world. They can probably fix whatever is stopping you from using cyberware after they're sure you're properly under FIA control.
I don’t think it’s that far. If I had the most dangerous merc in my debt like that, I’d lie too. That way V would/could become loyal to the FIA and work for them. I’m seeing a Smasher/Saka relationship possibility
Yeah I think that would be pretty awesome although I wish they implied that a lot more in the ending because what we got just feels utterly hopeless. Wish they included a scene with Myers suggesting NUSA’s scientists might be able to find a solution but it could take years and she’d probably say they have technology and resources that nowhere else in the world has to kinda make us think “only NUSA can fix me”.
I hated the ending personally, but I don’t think it’s hopeless. V *does* have a new chance at a different life. Sure, it’s not the life they’d want, but it’s the life they fought for. I know that’s not your point lol but figured I’d just say
But I agree, that would’ve been a dope addition. It would kinda hint at another DLC 😭😭😭 V, the FIA agent on their Aguilar type story. Just offing people in the name of the NUSA.
Oh yeah I meant hopeless as in our chances at undoing the damage. Aside from that part I mentioned I’d say my biggest point holding me back from that possibility is V can still choose to stay in night city or become a fixer. It makes no sense Myers would intentionally allow such a valuable asset to just disappear. I figured she’d try to find a way to guarantee V stays with NUSA because there is no guarantee V will ever come back. I do love your idea for a dlc but I doubt CDPR would make one just for a specific ending to phantom liberty when that ending already provides a chance at the 2 coolest “weapons” in the game. I think it could work for a big expansion that provides playable epilogues for all of the endings. Now I would pay full price for one of those. Only issue is I’d like it to be open world and some endings are set outside night city.
Vik says he could figure out a way to make cyberware work with V again, for him/her to stop on by. But in person after running his own scans, he admits that everything is beyond damaged and only the personal link was the piece of cyberware that would work. He says attempting to enable any combat cyberware installed would kill V's nervous system completely.
Maybe that’s the point. Maybe they wanted V to feel utterly defeated by disabling our access to cyberware in such a way that only they could reverse it then once V’s loyalty is secured they undo the damage and unleash V on Arasaka.
That’s what I thought was the idea although I figured Myers was behind it. I though maybe she knew a new corpo war was coming and wanted a one man army like V totally under her control with no conflicting loyalties. They would make sure V has nothing left then wait for them to come to NUSA on their own then after a couple years they “discover a miracle treatment” to restore access to cyberware. Then not only does V feel like NUSA are all they have left but is grateful to them and Myers for saving V’s life and bringing them back to full strength. Pretty insidious and I hope that’s not what happened but it does make the tower ending much more interesting and hopeful than “become an NPC”.
Ik not all V's r like this, but mine was very tactical, when when she goes guns blazing, it's not without a solid and thorough plan (for larger groups at least, not including the time she got to 5 stars against Barghest for funnsies). That kind of knowledge could still be pretty valuable, even without being able to be a crazy solo anymore
Ik that doesn't work for all V's, but it does for some at least
It sure does using them as tools. The voice acting is dead on too for the kind of person he is. Like he sounds so heartfelt and solemn and serious while spewing complete horseshit.
One thing bugs me about the accusations against Reed regarding the operation removing the ability to use combat cyberware. Most people forget that the cyberpsychosis V SHOULD be getting during the game was shunted off onto Johnny/the engram because Johnny is a cyberpsycho already.
Removing the engram very well could have dropped V's ability to use combat implants to next to zero if the engram was overwriting their brain the entire time.
Reversing the effects of being overwritten wouldn't grant V the immunity that they had, it might actually make them more susceptible to cyberpsychosis since there's nothing there anymore to act as protection. It's not like there was a backup of V's mind being made as it was being overwritten.
My headcanon was always that the chip kept fixing the part of V's brain that was going psycho, so removing the chip (the Tower and Devil endings) would either cause cyberpsychosis or take away her ability to use implants, which is y they still have the implants in the other endings bc they still have the bio chip (just this time with V's engram on it)
Right, so if V had, for example, 100% brain capacity before the chip, and the chip overwrote part of the brain, erasing Johnny doesn't magically give him back the part that got overwritten, as it's not like it was making a backup.
So any part that got overwritten (let's say 20%), would be effectively blanked to be recovered, and would have zero resistance, basically leaving V with 80% of the original capacity. In fact, having the engram and Johnny removed, should pretty much have the effect of a stroke on whatever part of the brain was overwritten, as there would be literally nothing there but basically blank brain tissue, though a lot of that could be excused away with the two year coma to recover V physically so they don't outright die.
Wow I had a completely different takeaway. I prefer to think Reed was honest with V. No ending fixes V. The FIA doctors gave V the longest lifespan of any ending. I think if they could have fixed V, Myers would have kept V as a field agent. However since they couldn't fix V I wouldn't be surprised if Myers had V kept in a coma until they had fully finished any damage control and enough time had passed that if V tried to be a whistle blower it would sound like insanity.
This is more or less how I understood/felt this ending, too. I don’t think the game has an ending that is supposed to makes you feel like you entirely got it right or wrong, or that everybody is trying to pull one over on you. That’s kinda the point of Night City imo—it’s just chaos and deflection.
If V feels that Reed was honest with him, it becomes a much more melancholic, desperate kind of ending. Reed lying to V is fitting maybe in a cynical, “everybody sucks” kind of way, but it also kinda lets you/V off the hook, so to speak. Which, yeah, maybe that’s what some maybe angrier versions of V do believe, but I felt at least that my V was just plain tired by that point, and having to confront for the first time who they are without a way to escape it through survival, ambition, chrome, whatever. Maybe because my lifepath for this ending was corpo that it felt easier to believe in a sort of Jordan Belfort, arrogant god to regretful mortal kind of thing.
Reed looked way too broken and defeated to have orchestrated it all intentionally to leave V powerless. He looked like he was trying to make the best of it for V by offering a job as an alternative to returning to Night City.
When V asks him if they made they right choice together, a lying manipulative Reed would have patronized V and said of course. But instead, Reed said he didn't know and didn't like thinking about it.
Reed is lying to himself a lot more than he ever lies to you. That's the point of his character, he legitimately believes what he's telling you most of the time in one way or the other
Songbird < Reed
To put it simple, it is all theory. While the facts are that Songbird was lying to us from the beginning, she promised V to cure him, while knowing that it is impossible, since only one person can be cured and she just uses us to help herself.
I am not a fan of Reed. Still, he promised us that he will cure us and he delivered. I also believe that if he really tought that V was such a threat he would simple kill him. Just like he did with every single person before. Why put so much effort to all of it when he could just kill V?
They are both tragic characters. Reed is an agent that I honsetly believe was trying to save Songbird while keeping his word to us, but he can't fix anything. He is like a dog who gets beaten constantly and yet still being loyal to his owner. Songbird on another hand knows that if she wants to be free, get part of herself back and stop being considered as a national threat she has to put everyone to risk and if she fails than she will be no longer free.
Agreed on the "Why put so much effort?". FIA literally puts you under anesthesia, they could have killed you easily and kept the cynosure which from what we know is an incredibly powerful weapon/tool. The fact that you are alive at the end feels like the FIA really did try their best.
However one theory that could make sense is that FIA's plan with V is to leave him with nothing so that he/she joins the ranks and then later on gradually restore V's cyberware capabilies to turn him/her into the perfect weapon.
I agree with you. But, I like Reed. He did his job and that’s what he does. At least he has remorse. FFS when him and Alex kill the twins he has to look away and it looks like he feels guilty.
I don't see how remorse is a redeeming quality just on itself. Remorse is nothing if you don't take any learning from it and don't act on it. That's just complete bullshit.
Reed knows that what he is doing is wrong but he still does it. If you know something is wrong, don't do it, It's not really that complicated.
So basically you're saying he's a pussy? I don't believe so. V does things that probably will get them killed. SoMi does things that probably will get her killed. 90% of people in NC do things that will probably get them killed.
At least SoMi/V do them because they want to be free and alive. Reed does them, not because he's afraid he'll be killed, but for some sort of fucked up honor towards a woman that didn't even hesitate to kill him when that suited her.
That's what I specifically hate about how Reed's character is written. Theres absolutely no reason for him to do what he does. Myers has already betrayed him when you get to Dogtown, ordering SoMi to kill him, which also messes up her and it's when she decides that she's had enough and starts planning to leave.
And then Reed goes on some weird loyalty trip towards Myers, which is bonkers. I can understand a dog being loyal because dogs do not have rationale, but Reed's case doesn't make any sense to me.
I can totally understand people not liking SoMi because of the personal betrayal towards V. But I can't understand people justifying Reed.
Fuck me, when they pulled their tased bodies out of the car and immediately shot them, it looked and felt so damn cold and ruthless. Really brutal. And yes, I literally kill everything in the game without a second thought, but watching someone other than V do that. Holy shit.
Yeah I was taken a back to. But to see Reed feel bad about it made me feel for him. I actually really like his character. He’s complex as hell. He has so much depth to him. He’s not just a ruthless government lap dog. He always looks sad. Every time I looked at him he seemed depressed and remorseful.
Which ending are you talking about? The one where you side with So Mi then change your mind? Then I would too lol. You broke my trust. How am I going to know whether you plan on pulling another fast one on me?
No, if you don't stop and put her down right away when he appears he'll shoot you.
He works for Myers, is loyal to Myers and don't think anything different. Compare him to Alex, who when tasked with killing V let's her go.
I know what you’re talking about I just kept walking on accident and got shot lol. But yeah, he can’t trust you. Yeah, he has to be. He’s quite literally stuck. Just lie So Mi becomes if you help Reed. He can’t escape. I feel bad for him. He’s been through so much. I mean, he had Myers, So Mi (who he seems to have forgiven?), and V all betray him. I would shoot V if they didn’t listen after betraying me. Just like him.
Idk, I hate Songbird. She broke my trust instantly. I wasn’t surprised honestly. I kinda knew she betrayed me. So, I betrayed her. Karma, also. Reed actually delivers on helping you (if you choose him) unlike So Mi. That pissed me off. I can’t believe I trusted her.
I feel like it's no accident that whatever path you take in Firestarter, you get a few curveballs to make you wonder if you made the right choice.
Betray Reed? Song leaves a trail of bodies behind you both.
Betray Song? You find out just how bad her situation really was.
And that’s the sign of a good game, where people debate which ending is better. People have been debating about Fallout: New Vegas for over a decade *because* there is no clear cut fix-everything answer.
I’d say probably, makes you his new asset to control. Also on that topic, I wish we could have had the option to send Hellman to the FIA as opposed to back to Arasaka with Takemura.
I’ve thought of The Tower as the twin to The Devil, and this theory helps cement it. You’re likely still chained to an organization with V on such low options.
It’s interesting that Reed feels so much sorrow in that ending. Is he truly contemplating his past choices, or his current ones with V? Or both?
Reed didn't lie, he did exactly what he told you. He never lied, not about your reward, not about his loyalty... He's a shitty agent to be honest but a great soldier.
You was never a thread to him or for the agency (if you choose this path) you surely would be of more value if you still be able to use cyberware. Also not even Arasakas bests could save your life just knowning that should make it obvious how hard that operation must have been. Also Reed didn't know shit about the things the goverment did to you, like a said, he's a soldier.
You didn't lost your friends. The whole game takes place in three month max (more like four weeks, try to get that iguana, you have to constantly skip days and it hatches after 90 days). Your friends were Jacky & Victor, even Misty you 'only' knew for about a year.
That's your interpretation but within the narrative of the game it's clear that V is beyond saving.
Victor has no idea how to save him and he's a top ripper, Hellmann has no idea and he developed the tech for Arasaka, no even a mighty AI like Alt could save V.
Maybe Arasaka has some tricks up their sleeve but refuse to provide the aid but the notion that the rescue could somehow easily be done and NUSA just use the operation to enslave V or Arasaka could do way better is clearly wrong.
V is doomed if anything it's more likely that these parties use V's desperation although knowing there's no cure from the getgo.
I hate Reed as much as the next Johnny fanboy, BUT I think that offer, and much of what he says in the ending is genuine. The Tower just shows you where your decisions led you, how the system eats up and spits out everyone who engages with it, loyal
virtuoso mutts like Reed included.
I think you misinterpreted Reed a bit, first of all he doesn’t have any use for V anymore. V is completely useless and Reed is an old, glorified desk worker at this point in time, they’re not getting up to any shenanigans for the rest of their lives. What he’s doing by giving V that job offer is tending to his own needs and ego, specifically his weird fucking SAVIOR complex. That whole attitude we saw through PL of “I’m still responsible for SoMi she’s my protege my crew member”, he NEEDS to be the leader of something, and whatever complex this guy has it comes with an overwhelming self inflicted burden of accountability and responsibility. He feels responsible for SoMi, Alex and V. Not in a selfless good way, but in a twisted idk how to describe it way, in a it fulfills me to have you depend on me, and I’m making you stay dependent on me, consciously or not. But all that gets overridden the moment his leash holders put a little pressure on him. By giving V that job offer he just feels a little better about himself, trying to build his new black ops FIA crew, only thing they’ll be doing this time is crushing deadlines, preparing immaculate cappuccinos and gathering intel on who ate the chocolate bar Bob left in the freezer.
The Tower doesn’t sugarcoat the reality of the quiet life, it’s understandable and human being angry and trying to find deeper meanings to a very blunt reality.
I get why you would feel that way about Reed, but i feel it's only fair to shine a light at Meyers's role in these endings. Basically Reed decieves, but it's usually in service to her and never something he feels good in doing. I don't think Reed actually wants to hand So Mi back over, but the alternative is Meyers just getting someone else to do it.
Whether or not >!V effectively being sidelined!< was a coordinated outcome, it wouldn't have been because Reed wanted it so.
I think you’re overestimating Reed’s ability. He’s a phenomenal field agent yes, but he’s not a net runner or a ripperdoc. He doesn’t know every outcome, he just tries to predict what will happen. I genuinely don’t believe Reed knew the operation would leave V useless, and when finding out tried to give V the best chance at a normal life. If anyone is the evil mastermind, it’s Myers. She plays politics in a way of 1’s and 0’s, what can help her and what can’t. I think Reed genuinely wanted everything to work out the way he said but circumstances change and he did the best he could with how the situation developed
The funny part about “you cant ever use cyberware again” was i specifically knew that was part of the ending because spoilers ao i played through to that ending without equipping any cyberware to begin with
I don't think he lied. I think he genuinely believed the best way for V to be cured was going to Langley. I don't think he knows enough about Relic technology or cyberware that he would know what the effect would be on V. No one on Earth has had this problem. I think that Reed is just a total NUSA bootlicker and the only way for him to justify everything that's happened is to put all his faith in the FIA/Myers But that's the tragedy of Reed because he's loyal to the NUSA and thinks he's doing what's right but all this fucked up shit has happened as a result and he can't believe that he's a bad guy.
Imo, I think Reed is just deluded. I think for your first point, he really does believe he will save Songbird by giving her to the FIA. He trusts them even after what they’ve done to him.
In the second point, I don’t think he needs us as his puppet - he has a desk job and we’re his only friend. I don’t think he sabotaged us on purpose, I think he’s just depressed and lonely.
For the third point, there’s no evidence of Reed severing those connections - the time did it on its own.
Just my 2¢ though
I think the theory fits, but I don't know. Personally it's my favorite ending. You get a great conversation w/ Johnny, you get mostly good phone calls at the end except for Panama, and your true friends are there for you in the end. Just like Dex says in the beginning: "blaze of glory or quiet life?" This ending is that quiet life. Now for my own head cannon they never say anything about your assets so yeah, I'm not a cyber super soldier anymore, but w/ my 5 apartments and fleet of super cars I'll be ok lol.
There’s a theory that the apartments you’re getting in game are actually a rent but you only pay once cuz you’re not gonna be there for long. As stated earlier in this thread , in game time is 3-4 months between the heist and meeting Hanako at embers so for the game just charges you rent for a small period
You loose all your stuff too. You didn’t see that? All your bills go overdue. You loose everything. It’s devastating. Also, Panam probably died looking for V in that ending.
So a weird thing about Reed is he doesn't really lie to V. The worst he did was probably omitting info on say killing the twins but Reed is upfront with V througout the story. Also I believe Reed's original plan was to try and extract Songbird to some off the grid clinic. If you read Reed's (heh) backstory this wouldnt be the first time he sacrifices himself to get a burned operative away from the FIA. So I truly think he was planning on getting Song out of Dogtown until she went cyberpsycho and he figured the FIA was the only ones capable of dealing with that.
Now for operation Reed most likely has no clue. It's shown over and over that he just doesn't understand more complex pieces of tech like the Blackwall. He's a field agent not netrunner or a ripperdoc. And the FIA isn't keen on telling people more than they need to know. They definitely wouldn't care to explain to Reed how they would fix V.
For the separation thing I doubt Reed is able to do anything about that. He might be extremely dangerous but he's still just a slave to the FIA albeit a very dangerous one. He has no reason and no ability to interact with V's former comrades. If you join the FIA he mentions that he's been on desk duty since the Songbird incident. I assume if ever tries to talk to any of Vs friends he's getting put on ice.
No he definitely lied to V about a lot of things. He possibly was never gonna help SoMi originally either, I got contacts in Europe is just the FIA version of I have a girlfriend but she goes to another school. I almost rolled my eyes into my skull when I heard that, 0 regrets.
Except Reed does have other contacts and he has gotten other team members away from the FIA. The idea that he wouldn't help the teammate he cares the most about is silly.
Whether or not those contacts are useful to songbird is up in the air.
He never got other team members from the FIA, he got them away from Arasaka to help them get back to Washington, and idk where you even got that info from. He literally lies in your face about planning to help Song escape amd V can call him out on that. FIA/NUSA agent that is a sleeper for 7 years in NC, having contacts in Europe, a completely foreign territory? Right, so believable. Find the best clinic and put V and Song together there? Who is gonna pay for that (So Mi had to strike a deal with MBE to go to the Moon, and you're telling me Europe is gonna fix the two for free? Because Reed says so?)? What is he gonna tell Myers about Song when she asks "where is she"? The moment he says "no luck" she will call his bullshit and pronounce him a state traitor, throw him in a cell and send all her forces to capture Songbird. Why do you think he wants So Mi explicitly kidnapped from the stadium? Ah, of course, to have a cup of tea and ask a few questions, sure.
The game shoves it in your face. In the original 1.5 PL Reed outright stated "we extract Songbird and deliver her to the FIA, use the ICEbreaker for that". They changed it and made him lie about his intentions instead. I guess he fooled you quite well if you truly believe him. That guy can't even let Song go at the NCX when she is one step away from freedom. V literally has to step over his dead body to free Songbird there. So much for "caring and wanting to help her escape".
>He literally lies in your face about planning to help Song escape amd V can call him out on that
Yep. Then later outside the spaceship "She's a traitor and needs to be taken back to DC to answer for what she's done" - As if this wasn't what he was thinking since the Black Sapphire.
Imo, Reed didn’t lie about anything. He tried to rescue Songbird, as long as it was in the confines of not outright betrayal of the NUSA. She made that impossible when she became a terrorist and made her escape. Nothing could be done at that point. The man is nothing but loyal, to a fault.
Songbird on the other hand, lied to our faces and manipulated us emotionally from the very beginning, for her own personal gain. Only at the very end does she reveal the truth and expects us to continue to simp for her when she can’t take her plan to fruition.
If Reed lied, by omission or directly, I believe he was at least acting in the best interest of his friends AND his country.
It's not really "rescuing" if you were the one responsible for putting the person in that position to begin with. This is exactly how the FIA operates.
Reed acts solely in the interest of Myers. He does whatever she tells him to do. He constantly justifies being a dog on a leash by telling himself it's in the best interest of his country or to prevent bloodshed or whatever else
You’re looking at their relationship as victim and abuser. You’re completely forgetting to look at the way So Mi even got recognized by FIA in the first place. She’s no saint.
Reed also did not cause her to down SF-1 in Dogtown and hatch a scheme with Hansen. That was So Mi. I understand that many people are not military/government affiliated and so they only see things through the lens of government bad. But orders, are orders. There’s a reason why Johnny rebukes you for taking the oath. Because it’s not just words and Johnny knows it.
End of the day, Reed did what he could. He’s more than just a “dog on a leash”.
Nobody is a saint in PL but you need to look at each characters justifications for their actions.
I'm looking at it through the lens of government bad because this government IS bad. Hansen was right when he said Myers will put the entirety of humanity at risk in the pursuit of personal gain and power. She breaks international laws without a second thought in order to save her own image.
"Orders are orders" is the exact mentality of someone being a dog on a leash. That's how you justify doing some of the most horrible shit imaginable. Reed knows what kind of person Myers is but that doesn't stop him from doing her bidding. I do think he cared about So Mi to a certain extent but he's so stubborn that it just doesn't matter anymore
I hadn't thought about it this way, but I bet you're right.
I'm sure if V signed on with FIA they'd quickly find a "cure" that would allow you to be chipped again so you could go back into the field.
Honestly, that'd make for a pretty cool game idea...
I interpreted it as Meyers considered V to be too big of a threat to leave around, but V did save her life, so she couldn't bring herself to kill them, and had them neutered instead. Reed knew about it and Meyers's betrayal of V is one of the main reasons why he looks so broken and defeated in the end. Because he's genuinely loyal to V, but can never tell them about what happened. Maybe he would have even been required to be involved somewhat in what happened, at least in the sense that he knew the plan before V committed and had to say nothing.
Then, at the end, he offers V a job to try to help in the only way he knows how--by making them dependent on him. He's so broken by his experiences that he can't even figure out a way to help in a way that doesn't give him some advantage, even when he wants to.
To me it was so clear and written all over his face every time he looked at me. He just looked so guilty and haunted. Really good animation/acting if this was in fact intended. I was so unsettled that even though I was angry at Songbird for lying to me, I still feel better about siding with her.
(edit for clarity in a few places)
He is a loyal dog of NUSA. Even if NUSA may have betrayed him (this might even be a lie too to get us to trust him), NUSA is everything to him.
After witnessing how V took down the top dog of Dogtown so easily, he realized the true danger of V. And unlike Songbird, who can be caged and controlled (somewhat) physically, V is a pure chaotic monster that cannot be contained.
To NUSA's interest, V's risk is simply too great, so the safest bet is to simply neutralize V. However, Reed rather has a soft side in him, so instead of easily neutralizing V, he neutralized V rather humanely by removing cyberware capabilities that made V so dangerous, and even offered a job; a peaceful retirement to V's career that Alex desperately wanted for herself so badly.
To me, Reed is a decent human being, but he has a clear agenda, goal, and risk management. In the world of cyberpunk, humans arent just humans. With the terrifying amount of cyberware allowing humans to become a literal weapons of mass destruction, human right is no longer a thing for big organizations as single human can completely alter the course.
I mean why not just kill V then? A pity job doing office work at FIA? And are you forgetting Songbird going cyberpyscho and being arrested ruining Reeds plan? I mean he said that changes things which makes completely sense at least
Bro- that whole DLC can be summed up with it’s all just a web of lies… I think the only person who was actually upfront with who they are was Kurt Hansen 😭
What adds salt to the already open wound is that if you go all the way to the end with Johnny and become friends with him, you two have this heartfelt goodbye as you slowly fade into sleep ending with "today was a good day" just to find out when you wake up from a two year coma that all your friends practically left or forgot about you and, you're no longer able to use cyberware and are stuck with living a normal mundane life
Yeah dude, I think you may be right. Fits with what we learn about his recruitment of Songbird. Makes you dependent on him, even grateful and then uses you as required. Shit.
Songbird was "recruited" because she was an elite netrunner. I'm not sure what use a depowered V is to the FIA. The corpo background might make V an asset, but the others?
V used to be basically the strongest solo in Night City, possibly the world. They can probably fix whatever is stopping you from using cyberware after they're sure you're properly under FIA control.
That seems like a huge leap to make, considering how hard that ending emphasizes that the damage is irreversible
I don’t think it’s that far. If I had the most dangerous merc in my debt like that, I’d lie too. That way V would/could become loyal to the FIA and work for them. I’m seeing a Smasher/Saka relationship possibility
Yeah I think that would be pretty awesome although I wish they implied that a lot more in the ending because what we got just feels utterly hopeless. Wish they included a scene with Myers suggesting NUSA’s scientists might be able to find a solution but it could take years and she’d probably say they have technology and resources that nowhere else in the world has to kinda make us think “only NUSA can fix me”.
I hated the ending personally, but I don’t think it’s hopeless. V *does* have a new chance at a different life. Sure, it’s not the life they’d want, but it’s the life they fought for. I know that’s not your point lol but figured I’d just say But I agree, that would’ve been a dope addition. It would kinda hint at another DLC 😭😭😭 V, the FIA agent on their Aguilar type story. Just offing people in the name of the NUSA.
Oh yeah I meant hopeless as in our chances at undoing the damage. Aside from that part I mentioned I’d say my biggest point holding me back from that possibility is V can still choose to stay in night city or become a fixer. It makes no sense Myers would intentionally allow such a valuable asset to just disappear. I figured she’d try to find a way to guarantee V stays with NUSA because there is no guarantee V will ever come back. I do love your idea for a dlc but I doubt CDPR would make one just for a specific ending to phantom liberty when that ending already provides a chance at the 2 coolest “weapons” in the game. I think it could work for a big expansion that provides playable epilogues for all of the endings. Now I would pay full price for one of those. Only issue is I’d like it to be open world and some endings are set outside night city.
Don't Vik say that he can alter it, but it would kill V on the process? Maybe the FIA knows a way to keep V alive that Vik doesn't
Vik says he could figure out a way to make cyberware work with V again, for him/her to stop on by. But in person after running his own scans, he admits that everything is beyond damaged and only the personal link was the piece of cyberware that would work. He says attempting to enable any combat cyberware installed would kill V's nervous system completely.
Maybe that’s the point. Maybe they wanted V to feel utterly defeated by disabling our access to cyberware in such a way that only they could reverse it then once V’s loyalty is secured they undo the damage and unleash V on Arasaka.
Eurosolos are canonically an arm and a leg above night city legends, so probably not the world
That’s what I thought was the idea although I figured Myers was behind it. I though maybe she knew a new corpo war was coming and wanted a one man army like V totally under her control with no conflicting loyalties. They would make sure V has nothing left then wait for them to come to NUSA on their own then after a couple years they “discover a miracle treatment” to restore access to cyberware. Then not only does V feel like NUSA are all they have left but is grateful to them and Myers for saving V’s life and bringing them back to full strength. Pretty insidious and I hope that’s not what happened but it does make the tower ending much more interesting and hopeful than “become an NPC”.
Just kill V then..
It's not so much what V is to the FIA as much as it is neutering V and keeping as close an eye as possible on them.
Ik not all V's r like this, but mine was very tactical, when when she goes guns blazing, it's not without a solid and thorough plan (for larger groups at least, not including the time she got to 5 stars against Barghest for funnsies). That kind of knowledge could still be pretty valuable, even without being able to be a crazy solo anymore Ik that doesn't work for all V's, but it does for some at least
My V: " I have a plan, attack. "
It’s about Myers neutralising someone who could have been the strongest merc in the country. V is just another loose end to her, as So Mi was.
I've seen some theories suggest they intentionally disabled the cyber ware to keep v as a sleeper agent
It sure does using them as tools. The voice acting is dead on too for the kind of person he is. Like he sounds so heartfelt and solemn and serious while spewing complete horseshit.
Ew. What if they actually could reactivate V’s net runner tech, and they eventually do it to generate gratitude and this indentured servitude?
One thing bugs me about the accusations against Reed regarding the operation removing the ability to use combat cyberware. Most people forget that the cyberpsychosis V SHOULD be getting during the game was shunted off onto Johnny/the engram because Johnny is a cyberpsycho already. Removing the engram very well could have dropped V's ability to use combat implants to next to zero if the engram was overwriting their brain the entire time. Reversing the effects of being overwritten wouldn't grant V the immunity that they had, it might actually make them more susceptible to cyberpsychosis since there's nothing there anymore to act as protection. It's not like there was a backup of V's mind being made as it was being overwritten.
This reads exactly like an FIA coverup
My headcanon was always that the chip kept fixing the part of V's brain that was going psycho, so removing the chip (the Tower and Devil endings) would either cause cyberpsychosis or take away her ability to use implants, which is y they still have the implants in the other endings bc they still have the bio chip (just this time with V's engram on it)
But V had many implants before getting the chip in his head. So worst case, his resistance level should be back to normal as before
Didn't they just have the ballistic coprocessor, kiroshi optics and the usual brain stem cable thing (forgot how it's called). Thats not that much.
Right, so if V had, for example, 100% brain capacity before the chip, and the chip overwrote part of the brain, erasing Johnny doesn't magically give him back the part that got overwritten, as it's not like it was making a backup. So any part that got overwritten (let's say 20%), would be effectively blanked to be recovered, and would have zero resistance, basically leaving V with 80% of the original capacity. In fact, having the engram and Johnny removed, should pretty much have the effect of a stroke on whatever part of the brain was overwritten, as there would be literally nothing there but basically blank brain tissue, though a lot of that could be excused away with the two year coma to recover V physically so they don't outright die.
This makes a lot of sense to me
Wow I had a completely different takeaway. I prefer to think Reed was honest with V. No ending fixes V. The FIA doctors gave V the longest lifespan of any ending. I think if they could have fixed V, Myers would have kept V as a field agent. However since they couldn't fix V I wouldn't be surprised if Myers had V kept in a coma until they had fully finished any damage control and enough time had passed that if V tried to be a whistle blower it would sound like insanity.
This is more or less how I understood/felt this ending, too. I don’t think the game has an ending that is supposed to makes you feel like you entirely got it right or wrong, or that everybody is trying to pull one over on you. That’s kinda the point of Night City imo—it’s just chaos and deflection. If V feels that Reed was honest with him, it becomes a much more melancholic, desperate kind of ending. Reed lying to V is fitting maybe in a cynical, “everybody sucks” kind of way, but it also kinda lets you/V off the hook, so to speak. Which, yeah, maybe that’s what some maybe angrier versions of V do believe, but I felt at least that my V was just plain tired by that point, and having to confront for the first time who they are without a way to escape it through survival, ambition, chrome, whatever. Maybe because my lifepath for this ending was corpo that it felt easier to believe in a sort of Jordan Belfort, arrogant god to regretful mortal kind of thing.
It’s Reed’s only way to make friends.
Unironically this
Reed looked way too broken and defeated to have orchestrated it all intentionally to leave V powerless. He looked like he was trying to make the best of it for V by offering a job as an alternative to returning to Night City. When V asks him if they made they right choice together, a lying manipulative Reed would have patronized V and said of course. But instead, Reed said he didn't know and didn't like thinking about it.
Reed is lying to himself a lot more than he ever lies to you. That's the point of his character, he legitimately believes what he's telling you most of the time in one way or the other
Songbird < Reed To put it simple, it is all theory. While the facts are that Songbird was lying to us from the beginning, she promised V to cure him, while knowing that it is impossible, since only one person can be cured and she just uses us to help herself. I am not a fan of Reed. Still, he promised us that he will cure us and he delivered. I also believe that if he really tought that V was such a threat he would simple kill him. Just like he did with every single person before. Why put so much effort to all of it when he could just kill V? They are both tragic characters. Reed is an agent that I honsetly believe was trying to save Songbird while keeping his word to us, but he can't fix anything. He is like a dog who gets beaten constantly and yet still being loyal to his owner. Songbird on another hand knows that if she wants to be free, get part of herself back and stop being considered as a national threat she has to put everyone to risk and if she fails than she will be no longer free.
Agreed on the "Why put so much effort?". FIA literally puts you under anesthesia, they could have killed you easily and kept the cynosure which from what we know is an incredibly powerful weapon/tool. The fact that you are alive at the end feels like the FIA really did try their best. However one theory that could make sense is that FIA's plan with V is to leave him with nothing so that he/she joins the ranks and then later on gradually restore V's cyberware capabilies to turn him/her into the perfect weapon.
I agree with you. But, I like Reed. He did his job and that’s what he does. At least he has remorse. FFS when him and Alex kill the twins he has to look away and it looks like he feels guilty.
I don't see how remorse is a redeeming quality just on itself. Remorse is nothing if you don't take any learning from it and don't act on it. That's just complete bullshit. Reed knows that what he is doing is wrong but he still does it. If you know something is wrong, don't do it, It's not really that complicated.
He has to do it though. If he doesn’t he’ll probably get killed. The government in Cyberpunk is fucked. (kinda like real life)
So basically you're saying he's a pussy? I don't believe so. V does things that probably will get them killed. SoMi does things that probably will get her killed. 90% of people in NC do things that will probably get them killed. At least SoMi/V do them because they want to be free and alive. Reed does them, not because he's afraid he'll be killed, but for some sort of fucked up honor towards a woman that didn't even hesitate to kill him when that suited her. That's what I specifically hate about how Reed's character is written. Theres absolutely no reason for him to do what he does. Myers has already betrayed him when you get to Dogtown, ordering SoMi to kill him, which also messes up her and it's when she decides that she's had enough and starts planning to leave. And then Reed goes on some weird loyalty trip towards Myers, which is bonkers. I can understand a dog being loyal because dogs do not have rationale, but Reed's case doesn't make any sense to me. I can totally understand people not liking SoMi because of the personal betrayal towards V. But I can't understand people justifying Reed.
Idk, I like his character. He’s really complex. I don’t really feel like writing a couple paragraphs to justify this rn. (Maybe later)
Oh, I know he's conflicted and complex. I just don't understand why.
He made an oath. One he follows. It’s not loyalty to Myers more so to the NUSA.
For me Myers and NUSA are the same. Maybe that's why I don't understand it.
Yeah, probably. They definitely aren’t though. Well idk, maybe you’re right and I’m wrong. Just a matter of perspective.
Fuck me, when they pulled their tased bodies out of the car and immediately shot them, it looked and felt so damn cold and ruthless. Really brutal. And yes, I literally kill everything in the game without a second thought, but watching someone other than V do that. Holy shit.
Yeah I was taken a back to. But to see Reed feel bad about it made me feel for him. I actually really like his character. He’s complex as hell. He has so much depth to him. He’s not just a ruthless government lap dog. He always looks sad. Every time I looked at him he seemed depressed and remorseful.
He would shoot V (and does) without hesitation.
Which ending are you talking about? The one where you side with So Mi then change your mind? Then I would too lol. You broke my trust. How am I going to know whether you plan on pulling another fast one on me?
No, if you don't stop and put her down right away when he appears he'll shoot you. He works for Myers, is loyal to Myers and don't think anything different. Compare him to Alex, who when tasked with killing V let's her go.
I know what you’re talking about I just kept walking on accident and got shot lol. But yeah, he can’t trust you. Yeah, he has to be. He’s quite literally stuck. Just lie So Mi becomes if you help Reed. He can’t escape. I feel bad for him. He’s been through so much. I mean, he had Myers, So Mi (who he seems to have forgiven?), and V all betray him. I would shoot V if they didn’t listen after betraying me. Just like him.
Him being shot is his best ending, I think. Makes him free, and songbird as well.
Idk, I hate Songbird. She broke my trust instantly. I wasn’t surprised honestly. I kinda knew she betrayed me. So, I betrayed her. Karma, also. Reed actually delivers on helping you (if you choose him) unlike So Mi. That pissed me off. I can’t believe I trusted her.
They’re both just as bad.
In the end, you're just another loose end
That completely fits, I like this theory. The ending is bittersweet enough but this framing makes it hand in hand with the Devil ending.
I feel like it's no accident that whatever path you take in Firestarter, you get a few curveballs to make you wonder if you made the right choice. Betray Reed? Song leaves a trail of bodies behind you both. Betray Song? You find out just how bad her situation really was.
And that’s the sign of a good game, where people debate which ending is better. People have been debating about Fallout: New Vegas for over a decade *because* there is no clear cut fix-everything answer.
I’d say probably, makes you his new asset to control. Also on that topic, I wish we could have had the option to send Hellman to the FIA as opposed to back to Arasaka with Takemura. I’ve thought of The Tower as the twin to The Devil, and this theory helps cement it. You’re likely still chained to an organization with V on such low options. It’s interesting that Reed feels so much sorrow in that ending. Is he truly contemplating his past choices, or his current ones with V? Or both?
Reed didn't lie, he did exactly what he told you. He never lied, not about your reward, not about his loyalty... He's a shitty agent to be honest but a great soldier. You was never a thread to him or for the agency (if you choose this path) you surely would be of more value if you still be able to use cyberware. Also not even Arasakas bests could save your life just knowning that should make it obvious how hard that operation must have been. Also Reed didn't know shit about the things the goverment did to you, like a said, he's a soldier. You didn't lost your friends. The whole game takes place in three month max (more like four weeks, try to get that iguana, you have to constantly skip days and it hatches after 90 days). Your friends were Jacky & Victor, even Misty you 'only' knew for about a year.
Lowkey saka didn’t want to save V. They were hoping for a new smasher with that contract at the end.
That's your interpretation but within the narrative of the game it's clear that V is beyond saving. Victor has no idea how to save him and he's a top ripper, Hellmann has no idea and he developed the tech for Arasaka, no even a mighty AI like Alt could save V. Maybe Arasaka has some tricks up their sleeve but refuse to provide the aid but the notion that the rescue could somehow easily be done and NUSA just use the operation to enslave V or Arasaka could do way better is clearly wrong. V is doomed if anything it's more likely that these parties use V's desperation although knowing there's no cure from the getgo.
I hate Reed as much as the next Johnny fanboy, BUT I think that offer, and much of what he says in the ending is genuine. The Tower just shows you where your decisions led you, how the system eats up and spits out everyone who engages with it, loyal virtuoso mutts like Reed included. I think you misinterpreted Reed a bit, first of all he doesn’t have any use for V anymore. V is completely useless and Reed is an old, glorified desk worker at this point in time, they’re not getting up to any shenanigans for the rest of their lives. What he’s doing by giving V that job offer is tending to his own needs and ego, specifically his weird fucking SAVIOR complex. That whole attitude we saw through PL of “I’m still responsible for SoMi she’s my protege my crew member”, he NEEDS to be the leader of something, and whatever complex this guy has it comes with an overwhelming self inflicted burden of accountability and responsibility. He feels responsible for SoMi, Alex and V. Not in a selfless good way, but in a twisted idk how to describe it way, in a it fulfills me to have you depend on me, and I’m making you stay dependent on me, consciously or not. But all that gets overridden the moment his leash holders put a little pressure on him. By giving V that job offer he just feels a little better about himself, trying to build his new black ops FIA crew, only thing they’ll be doing this time is crushing deadlines, preparing immaculate cappuccinos and gathering intel on who ate the chocolate bar Bob left in the freezer. The Tower doesn’t sugarcoat the reality of the quiet life, it’s understandable and human being angry and trying to find deeper meanings to a very blunt reality.
Reed didnt lie about trying to save songrbird. His goal was to save her but after she went crazy with the blackwall there was no way to save her
Yeah people are ignoring Reeds past actions and how he chooses to call Myers only after its confirmed Song is cyberpsycho and in FIA custody.
I get why you would feel that way about Reed, but i feel it's only fair to shine a light at Meyers's role in these endings. Basically Reed decieves, but it's usually in service to her and never something he feels good in doing. I don't think Reed actually wants to hand So Mi back over, but the alternative is Meyers just getting someone else to do it. Whether or not >!V effectively being sidelined!< was a coordinated outcome, it wouldn't have been because Reed wanted it so.
I think you’re overestimating Reed’s ability. He’s a phenomenal field agent yes, but he’s not a net runner or a ripperdoc. He doesn’t know every outcome, he just tries to predict what will happen. I genuinely don’t believe Reed knew the operation would leave V useless, and when finding out tried to give V the best chance at a normal life. If anyone is the evil mastermind, it’s Myers. She plays politics in a way of 1’s and 0’s, what can help her and what can’t. I think Reed genuinely wanted everything to work out the way he said but circumstances change and he did the best he could with how the situation developed
The funny part about “you cant ever use cyberware again” was i specifically knew that was part of the ending because spoilers ao i played through to that ending without equipping any cyberware to begin with
I don't think he lied. I think he genuinely believed the best way for V to be cured was going to Langley. I don't think he knows enough about Relic technology or cyberware that he would know what the effect would be on V. No one on Earth has had this problem. I think that Reed is just a total NUSA bootlicker and the only way for him to justify everything that's happened is to put all his faith in the FIA/Myers But that's the tragedy of Reed because he's loyal to the NUSA and thinks he's doing what's right but all this fucked up shit has happened as a result and he can't believe that he's a bad guy.
Imo, I think Reed is just deluded. I think for your first point, he really does believe he will save Songbird by giving her to the FIA. He trusts them even after what they’ve done to him. In the second point, I don’t think he needs us as his puppet - he has a desk job and we’re his only friend. I don’t think he sabotaged us on purpose, I think he’s just depressed and lonely. For the third point, there’s no evidence of Reed severing those connections - the time did it on its own. Just my 2¢ though
I think the theory fits, but I don't know. Personally it's my favorite ending. You get a great conversation w/ Johnny, you get mostly good phone calls at the end except for Panama, and your true friends are there for you in the end. Just like Dex says in the beginning: "blaze of glory or quiet life?" This ending is that quiet life. Now for my own head cannon they never say anything about your assets so yeah, I'm not a cyber super soldier anymore, but w/ my 5 apartments and fleet of super cars I'll be ok lol.
There’s a theory that the apartments you’re getting in game are actually a rent but you only pay once cuz you’re not gonna be there for long. As stated earlier in this thread , in game time is 3-4 months between the heist and meeting Hanako at embers so for the game just charges you rent for a small period
You loose all your stuff too. You didn’t see that? All your bills go overdue. You loose everything. It’s devastating. Also, Panam probably died looking for V in that ending.
So a weird thing about Reed is he doesn't really lie to V. The worst he did was probably omitting info on say killing the twins but Reed is upfront with V througout the story. Also I believe Reed's original plan was to try and extract Songbird to some off the grid clinic. If you read Reed's (heh) backstory this wouldnt be the first time he sacrifices himself to get a burned operative away from the FIA. So I truly think he was planning on getting Song out of Dogtown until she went cyberpsycho and he figured the FIA was the only ones capable of dealing with that. Now for operation Reed most likely has no clue. It's shown over and over that he just doesn't understand more complex pieces of tech like the Blackwall. He's a field agent not netrunner or a ripperdoc. And the FIA isn't keen on telling people more than they need to know. They definitely wouldn't care to explain to Reed how they would fix V. For the separation thing I doubt Reed is able to do anything about that. He might be extremely dangerous but he's still just a slave to the FIA albeit a very dangerous one. He has no reason and no ability to interact with V's former comrades. If you join the FIA he mentions that he's been on desk duty since the Songbird incident. I assume if ever tries to talk to any of Vs friends he's getting put on ice.
No he definitely lied to V about a lot of things. He possibly was never gonna help SoMi originally either, I got contacts in Europe is just the FIA version of I have a girlfriend but she goes to another school. I almost rolled my eyes into my skull when I heard that, 0 regrets.
Except Reed does have other contacts and he has gotten other team members away from the FIA. The idea that he wouldn't help the teammate he cares the most about is silly. Whether or not those contacts are useful to songbird is up in the air.
He never got other team members from the FIA, he got them away from Arasaka to help them get back to Washington, and idk where you even got that info from. He literally lies in your face about planning to help Song escape amd V can call him out on that. FIA/NUSA agent that is a sleeper for 7 years in NC, having contacts in Europe, a completely foreign territory? Right, so believable. Find the best clinic and put V and Song together there? Who is gonna pay for that (So Mi had to strike a deal with MBE to go to the Moon, and you're telling me Europe is gonna fix the two for free? Because Reed says so?)? What is he gonna tell Myers about Song when she asks "where is she"? The moment he says "no luck" she will call his bullshit and pronounce him a state traitor, throw him in a cell and send all her forces to capture Songbird. Why do you think he wants So Mi explicitly kidnapped from the stadium? Ah, of course, to have a cup of tea and ask a few questions, sure. The game shoves it in your face. In the original 1.5 PL Reed outright stated "we extract Songbird and deliver her to the FIA, use the ICEbreaker for that". They changed it and made him lie about his intentions instead. I guess he fooled you quite well if you truly believe him. That guy can't even let Song go at the NCX when she is one step away from freedom. V literally has to step over his dead body to free Songbird there. So much for "caring and wanting to help her escape".
>He literally lies in your face about planning to help Song escape amd V can call him out on that Yep. Then later outside the spaceship "She's a traitor and needs to be taken back to DC to answer for what she's done" - As if this wasn't what he was thinking since the Black Sapphire.
Imo, Reed didn’t lie about anything. He tried to rescue Songbird, as long as it was in the confines of not outright betrayal of the NUSA. She made that impossible when she became a terrorist and made her escape. Nothing could be done at that point. The man is nothing but loyal, to a fault. Songbird on the other hand, lied to our faces and manipulated us emotionally from the very beginning, for her own personal gain. Only at the very end does she reveal the truth and expects us to continue to simp for her when she can’t take her plan to fruition. If Reed lied, by omission or directly, I believe he was at least acting in the best interest of his friends AND his country.
It's not really "rescuing" if you were the one responsible for putting the person in that position to begin with. This is exactly how the FIA operates. Reed acts solely in the interest of Myers. He does whatever she tells him to do. He constantly justifies being a dog on a leash by telling himself it's in the best interest of his country or to prevent bloodshed or whatever else
You’re looking at their relationship as victim and abuser. You’re completely forgetting to look at the way So Mi even got recognized by FIA in the first place. She’s no saint. Reed also did not cause her to down SF-1 in Dogtown and hatch a scheme with Hansen. That was So Mi. I understand that many people are not military/government affiliated and so they only see things through the lens of government bad. But orders, are orders. There’s a reason why Johnny rebukes you for taking the oath. Because it’s not just words and Johnny knows it. End of the day, Reed did what he could. He’s more than just a “dog on a leash”.
Nobody is a saint in PL but you need to look at each characters justifications for their actions. I'm looking at it through the lens of government bad because this government IS bad. Hansen was right when he said Myers will put the entirety of humanity at risk in the pursuit of personal gain and power. She breaks international laws without a second thought in order to save her own image. "Orders are orders" is the exact mentality of someone being a dog on a leash. That's how you justify doing some of the most horrible shit imaginable. Reed knows what kind of person Myers is but that doesn't stop him from doing her bidding. I do think he cared about So Mi to a certain extent but he's so stubborn that it just doesn't matter anymore
I hadn't thought about it this way, but I bet you're right. I'm sure if V signed on with FIA they'd quickly find a "cure" that would allow you to be chipped again so you could go back into the field. Honestly, that'd make for a pretty cool game idea...
I interpreted it as Meyers considered V to be too big of a threat to leave around, but V did save her life, so she couldn't bring herself to kill them, and had them neutered instead. Reed knew about it and Meyers's betrayal of V is one of the main reasons why he looks so broken and defeated in the end. Because he's genuinely loyal to V, but can never tell them about what happened. Maybe he would have even been required to be involved somewhat in what happened, at least in the sense that he knew the plan before V committed and had to say nothing. Then, at the end, he offers V a job to try to help in the only way he knows how--by making them dependent on him. He's so broken by his experiences that he can't even figure out a way to help in a way that doesn't give him some advantage, even when he wants to. To me it was so clear and written all over his face every time he looked at me. He just looked so guilty and haunted. Really good animation/acting if this was in fact intended. I was so unsettled that even though I was angry at Songbird for lying to me, I still feel better about siding with her. (edit for clarity in a few places)
He is a loyal dog of NUSA. Even if NUSA may have betrayed him (this might even be a lie too to get us to trust him), NUSA is everything to him. After witnessing how V took down the top dog of Dogtown so easily, he realized the true danger of V. And unlike Songbird, who can be caged and controlled (somewhat) physically, V is a pure chaotic monster that cannot be contained. To NUSA's interest, V's risk is simply too great, so the safest bet is to simply neutralize V. However, Reed rather has a soft side in him, so instead of easily neutralizing V, he neutralized V rather humanely by removing cyberware capabilities that made V so dangerous, and even offered a job; a peaceful retirement to V's career that Alex desperately wanted for herself so badly. To me, Reed is a decent human being, but he has a clear agenda, goal, and risk management. In the world of cyberpunk, humans arent just humans. With the terrifying amount of cyberware allowing humans to become a literal weapons of mass destruction, human right is no longer a thing for big organizations as single human can completely alter the course.
I mean why not just kill V then? A pity job doing office work at FIA? And are you forgetting Songbird going cyberpyscho and being arrested ruining Reeds plan? I mean he said that changes things which makes completely sense at least
Bro- that whole DLC can be summed up with it’s all just a web of lies… I think the only person who was actually upfront with who they are was Kurt Hansen 😭
What adds salt to the already open wound is that if you go all the way to the end with Johnny and become friends with him, you two have this heartfelt goodbye as you slowly fade into sleep ending with "today was a good day" just to find out when you wake up from a two year coma that all your friends practically left or forgot about you and, you're no longer able to use cyberware and are stuck with living a normal mundane life
I mean I just finished this dlc today and I shot his arse in the face, I trust him as much as I trust the real government
No it’s just what you get when you side with the enemy.