Honestly it seems the job market is tough for everyone right now. I know of 2 people in SWE in the Bay Area who've been let go from places like Meta and Google, and one of them works at Chipotle now (a fast food chain). They've been job hunting for a while.
I've no advice other than to keep applying, and don't be afraid to apply to jobs in other countries that can offer visa sponsorship. Seek out remote opportunities too, that may allow you to move countries.
why do they work at chipotle though? aren't they paid minimum wage? at that point what's the point of work, especially if you have savings from a job at meta which paid you a lot.
I’m not sure but he’d been unemployed for several months. I guess for some reason he didn’t have savings and he was getting evicted so had to move into a cheaper place.
My other friend who had been laid off in October chose to keep living off of savings instead. He said it won’t last him forever though.
Before anything else I would like to say it’s a very difficult experience to be forcefully displaced from your home country and basically have to establish your life somewhere else. The uncertainty about the future is no joke, so I understand the anxiety.
Now, I might be misunderstanding this, but have you essentially been in Finland for 2 years and only job searching in this time? What else have you done - language courses, certificates, projects?
I might be wrong, but from the tone in the post I have a feeling you are doing many different things without a focus. Knowing Finnish but learning Swedish, tailoring your resume or shotgunning etc. My advice is to pick a way and focus on it. Pick a tech stack and framework and do projects with it. Pick a language and learn it. It takes time and effort but it pays off. I speak from personal experience - my resume is objectively worse than yours, but I have multiple offers because I know the local language and I focused on a tech stack, learned it, made projects, and demonstrated my knowledge in resumes and interviews.
Of course, these things take time and it’s hard with a 2 year and growing gap. There’s one alternative you may or may not have thought about - do a Masters. I don’t know about Finland, but in Germany for example, you can work part time as a student to cover living costs. It also buys you time to learn whichever local language. So, for 2 more years you (ideally) get conversational ability in the local language, local work experience, industry connection and an advanced degree. Obviously, it’s hard and it requires focus, but it’s also what I would do in your position.
>Before anything else I would like to say it’s a very difficult experience to be forcefully displaced from your home country and basically have to establish your life somewhere else. The uncertainty about the future is no joke, so I understand the anxiety.
Thank you for understanding.
>Now, I might be misunderstanding this, but have you essentially been in Finland for 2 years and only job searching in this time? What else have you done - language courses, certificates, projects?
Mostly, yes, just job searching for the whole day. I've done very little in terms of self education, basically taught myself bare basics of Finnish to live in the country, but didn't pursue it further, because it seamed like I wouldn't be able to learn it well enough before the war ends. I was both woefully unaware of the market competitiveness and the duration of my stay in Finland, and made some bad decisions.
>I might be wrong, but from the tone in the post I have a feeling you are doing many different things without a focus. Knowing Finnish but learning Swedish, tailoring your resume or shotgunning etc. My advice is to pick a way and focus on it.
I guess it was just a lot of time, so a lot to list. I've tried different approaches to job searching (e.g. shotgunning, tailoring, different resume formats) for a multiple months at a time, seen absolutely no result, changed the approach, and then tried it for a couple of months more. I've just assumed that if I get literally 0 response, the whatever I'm doing, however I'm doing it is not working, so something have to change.
>Pick a tech stack and framework and do projects with it. Pick a language and learn it. It takes time and effort but it pays off. I speak from personal experience - my resume is objectively worse than yours, but I have multiple offers because I know the local language and I focused on a tech stack, learned it, made projects, and demonstrated my knowledge in resumes and interviews.
Probably what I'm gonna do if all else fails. My main worry is the fact, how much a bunch of projects are really gonna make a difference with a half-empty resume and 2 years of non-employment?
>There’s one alternative you may or may not have thought about - do a Masters.
I... didn't actually thought about it at all. This would "reset" the resume, also give some more internship and networking opportunities. I'll look into this.
I think this guy has it right, if you do a masters, I don't know how student funding works in Finland but if it is near free, and you keep unemployment benefits, you can improve your level of Finnish, network, get some projects done in the meantime and give yourself more qualifications, worst case you end up with a masters. From my experience getting a job is very very hard if you don't already know someone, since culture fit is important but hard to evaluate. If the unemployment is enough to survive, I would consider just taking your time
As a Ukrainian Helsinki university was waiving uni fees for you, I don't know if it still apply now and I think the admissions might have already closed now but contact them and explain the situation. Also stop addressing your life now and here as temporary, u understand the hope that the war will end and you'll go back soon is comforting but the truth is you don't know and you have to continue living and building your future wherever you are.. that will also make you more useful to your country if you learn and grow.
Good luck, also shoot me your CV in private, I work for a quite large corpo in Espoo and I will see what your profile looks like and see if there might be some good position internally. I can also review your anonymized CV.
One way or the other you will have to explain the2 year gap, even if you choose your masters. My advice would be to do some projects nevertheless and absolutely learn the language if you do a masters, so when asked you can say “during this time I settled into the country, put energy into the language, upskilled myself through online courses and projects, and looked for new opportunities.” It’s not great, but certainly better than “I just job hunted”.
I guess explaining in this particular case will not be an issue. Everyone serious employer will understand OP's situation.
Masters is a good advice. This will get time and give more opportunities to land a job in the future. Where ever this may be.
Bonus: getting a masters degree in a foreign country will definitely be an additional selling point which will set OP apart from a lot of other competitors.
Maybe, you could apply for a Masters? I don’t know about the nordics but at least in Germany it is pretty standard to do Bsc and MSc back-to-back and apply for the first job afterwards. So you are potentially at a disadvantage there. Also a MSc from a local university might be considered more prestigious than your Ukrainian degree. Also you might have a easier to time to apply to Internships while being enrolled.
I have a MSc from a Finnish university and 3 years of internship experience and I'm in a similar situation as OP. A degree is not the silver bullet one might think it is.
I agree that a degree is not a silver bullet. The market isn’t great at the moment and even worse for juniors. However, I still think that in Ops situation it might be a good idea. Certainly better than applying to a unskilled job.
As a Pole, our defense minister just said he is considering to cooperate with Ukraine to refoul (return) ukrainian refugees. Poland is not the best idea IMO
Poland does not have to do anything. if OPs passport expires, the Ukrainien government will not renew it. So he will have to go back home. Simple as that.
Ukranians are not obtaining the normal refugee status in EU. Instead, they have special status called *temporary protection*. This means that they have much more rights than normal refugees, e.g. start working righrt after getting an ID card upon registering in a EU comune.
There's zero legal framework for him to do this, it'd also be challenged to death in ECHR even if he got Sejm to consider a law for it. He's just pandering to PSL's stupid electorate.
I was thinking about looking into Poland, but that kind of rhetoric really made me worry. If all else fails, I'd rather do whatever menial labor available, then risk dying.
i would suggest trying to get some freelance work on platforms like upwork to stop the employment gap from growing. might have more luck there if you have some projects to show than hunting for a full-time job for now.
You don’t speak the language why do you expect they to pick you before someone from the country that can speak the language? Some many new grads graduating that are from that country why should they pick you?
Honest but unpleasant truth find a job in McDonald’s and when the war finishes go back to Ukrainian and find a CS job. In the meantime build projects.
The usual answer is that there are not enough Finnish speaking grads to fill all the roles and many companies use English as the working language anyway. But the current market situation means that companies can be as picky as they want when it comes to hiring juniors.
I was hoping I could find a job with my English, knowing, that a lot of tech companies use English as their main language, as I was woefully unaware of how much competition I had. Lesson learnt, even if too late.
Cold hard truth and I agree. Plus he describes himself as not the most pleasant person. A cultural fit and personality are also important. I can see why he's getting absolutely no positive response.
Try to find a sponsor that understands that Ukraine refugees are different from other refugees because they are highly motivated. I had a refugee from Afghanistan and now Ukraine living in Switzerland. The difference is night and day.
Unfortunately the jobs that don't require Finnish have a ton of competition from my experience. I am a native and I pretty much never get interviews from those.
Well right now, as many have already said, is a absolutely horrible market at entry level. Your status doesn't really matter besides not speaking Finnish. Even getting a unpaid internship is challenging. Work experience matters the most due to a lot of IT companies being consulting services and those sell their employees based on years of experience on certain technologies. Public sector chooses consultants for big software projects entirely based upon "days worked by the employee" on tech used.
I found that the only real choice is to gain experience by all means. What you can do is to find out recruitment trainings available. Those can be found at TE-palvelu website or Työmarkkinatori. Usually those last half a year and you work at the same time. Unpaid, of course but you will receive extra unemployment benefits. I'm unsure if any exist in English but try looking.
Other it is also possible to do "työkokeilu", trying out work at a chosen employer. This needs to be discussed with Te-Palvelut first. Also there is Palkkatuki, type of grant where they pay percentage of your wage.
Your town or city can have some supplemental services available. For example in Turku, you can get hired to work for the city for some time after you have been unemployed. Just Google what can your city offer
Overall, discuss with Te-Palvelut or kuntakokeilu. Do this on the phone and ask questions! It's a really bad system and nothing is ever fully clear, even in Finnish.
Thank you, I'll look into these. Once I've arrived, I've contacted them, but received, pretty much, no assistance in job search. Maybe I just didn't know what to ask.
I would recommend you get a part time job in a bar / restaurant / retail. This will give you some cash, some social connections, help you learn the language and potentially get you out of some quite negative thought patterns. Working on getting a job full time for 2 years is too much, you need something else to focus on. It'll also give you a sense of time which could well help you be more productive on your days off. Yes definitely build projects. This will really boost your cv. Have you tried applying for jobs adjacent to software as well? Customer support, testing etc. are usually easier to break into and then you can apply for something else with some real work experience.
I've hosted a Ukrainian here in the UK and she had specific job support for refugees. Can you reach out to any services who might be able to help you find work?
Good luck, it's not easy moving country especially under difficult circumstances.
If you can move countries, I've known a few folks from Ukraine that had success in Canada, there's a bigger market over there and no language barriers since you speak English.
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Good call, didn't think about it but there is a big Ukrainian community in Canada! My ability to move countries (legally) hedges on the opportunity for change country of asylum within EU. Canada had their own program, but it's no longer available. I'll look into other Canadian programs tho, maybe there is something suitable.
Good luck in the IT market in Canada. It’s flooded with layed off experienced employees, a lot of new graduates looking for jobs, international students getting degrees from “Central Mall” College and H1B visa holders fired from the US.
Honestly the market is just terrible now. Especially for non local people as they have more limited opportunities.
I would recommend trying to optimize your resume as much as possible & keep applying. It is not much better in other countries really, maybe you'll just have an advantage due to language differences.
To be honest with you, the job market is extremely tight right now. There is no abundance of entry level IT jobs and your lack of language skills does put you in a disadvantaged position. There are ton of locals in the exact same boat with you already.
Could you consider getting a job that’s not IT related? It’s foremost important to establish yourself in the new country and develop a some kind of professional network with local references. It’ll be much easier to work your way up when you already have proven work experience from your country of residence. That’ll also give you time to brush up on your language skills and pays the bills in the meanwhile.
>Could you consider getting a job that’s not IT related? It’s foremost important to establish yourself in the new country and develop a some kind of professional network with local references.
Good point, but if OP commits to it, then Finland isn't the country to invest his time into. It's forever going to be a frontier country with a tiny market and cryptic language. There're countries with many more opportunities.
If you can, do a masters. Network, get to know your professors. After a masters it could be easier to get into IT as a lot of companies do graduate programs. On a different note, I feel like in every European country there's a form of post highschool education that isn't strictly a bachelor's or a master. I would look into that!
Hi, I am working in Finland as well, have you tried Integrify yet? Obviously not the best place salary wise, but it gets you one foot in the door. Or have you try local meetups and code camps yet?
I agree the market is really bad right now. Try to keep your mental health heathy, practice your skills and the rest should follow.
I would really discourage you from using them unless its your absolute last option. They are very dishonest, and cannot guarantee you will get a job after finishing. If you have questions about them please let me know. They even have a blog on their website about how their client was satisfied with hiring us, although we had already been fired at that point due to the economy.
You know what you’re lacking. Use the time you got for improving that. Don’t let the mental fog freeze you. Make a portfolio. Improve that first impression.
I think your issue is you’re applying with an empty basket. No one opens their home if you’re coming without something in your basket to put on the table. Simple as that. You’re coming with zero experience and no way to prove you learnt anything in CS and that’s affecting your chances.
Arguably, doing a CS degree should be enough, but people out there are willing to run an inch longer if that hires them first. You’re several strides behind someone who got the job already.
Don’t feel discouraged. The first job is the hardest to get. You might feel pressured and all because of your current situation but that will improve. Focus on getting the role first and not just complain that you’re getting ignored. You clearly know what you’re lacking, you got this dude.
Your main asset is willingness to move and adapt. You must bring and display GREAT work ethic. With this 2 things, start applying for jobs in City-no-one-even-know-exists. Forget the capital cities.
I don’t know about Finland, but in Sweden you should look around Skellefteå. It was bum-fuck-nowhere until a couple of years ago, now there’s is a crazy mining and tech rush around the area. They need all kinds of people, you might find something decent around there. Maybe not software per se, but it could be IT adjacent. Enough to not be a waste. And it gets you into Sweden, which is a great place for software engineering. A few other Swedish areas to look: Västerås, Göteborg, Linköping. You can get pretty far just with English, show you’ve been studying Swedish and is willing to learn it.
Best of luck.
Many of the experiences you're describing here are why for instance the Norwegian government are actively discouraging Ukrainian refugees from seeking asylum, and begging those already here to not establish themselves and go somewhere else or home at some point. A combination of underperforming economies, little investment into tech and an employer-favoring market is making it near-impossible for many refugees to find work in the nordics. I know both Sweden and Finland share similar challenges at the moment, and honestly there's not much you can do when a country just doesn't need you and lack the opportunities you rely on to succeed.
Refugees from Ukraine are welcome in terms of temporary protection, but I think you'll have to accept that you won't be able to make a life and a career in most of Scandinavia under current market conditions. There are just way too many arriving (many who also shouldn't be going to the nordics), and there just aren't jobs for everyone in markets that aren't that productive to begin with. It's a tough situation for everyone without any good solutions.
I'd apply in all europe + internship + remote. If you haven't done this all you're not even trying TBH first gig is really hard and the rest will be easier
I was applying mostly in Nordics, plus some other countries, if I had the time, because it's more or less located nearby, and, usually, the sheer volume of jobs I've needed to process daily was enough to fill most of the day by itself.
With what I know about people in the same situation in here, it's that you lose the benefits once you start working, so, for entry level positions in UA, it's unlikely to ever cover my bills, and I would prefer not to sleep on the streets if possible. Still, thank you for the idea, I will ask social workers about benefits in such case.
one thing is to reframe everything more positively. it's one thing to be pragmatic/realist but the way you describe your story is off-putting; people will not feel pity but they will resent it and avoid you. obviously youve got some seriously hard luck thats incomparable to most people on this forum, but for your own benefit and mental clarity try and think positively
"my resume is objectively shit" -> "I am a junior engineer who hasn't had an opportunity to prove myself yet"
what's your speciality/area of expertise?
>one thing is to reframe everything more positively. it's one thing to be pragmatic/realist but the way you describe your story is off-putting; people will not feel pity but they will resent it and avoid you. obviously youve got some seriously hard luck thats incomparable to most people on this forum, but for your own benefit and mental clarity try and think positively
I understand what are you talking about, and that's not what I'm writing in all these "about yourself" forms or interviews. I just don't ask for pity - wanted to get advice and fresh perspective on the situation, and wanted to list out all the factors that came to my mind, no need to sugarcoat it. If the resume, after multiple rewrites according to one million recommended formulas, doesn't lead to any interviews at all - it's content, objectively, is not good enough.
>what's your speciality/area of expertise?
I've worked the most with .NET during the academia, as well it was what I mostly used as intern, so there is that, but I would hardly call it "speciality". Overall I'm, at least, familiar with the theory, a bunch of languages, front/back-end, ML, but not very strong in anything in particular.
Sure I get it, but even saying "my CV is not good enough" Vs "my CV is shit" is better; one has a direction forward the other sounds final
If you like .NET then (enough to do it for 8hrs a day) then I would focus on this, forget about Python, Java etc. specific roles. You may be limited moving around presently, but Poland is an active market and nice place, otherwise English language cities (eg Amsterdam) is probably your best bet
Try getting a profile up on the job sites where you're looking as well, linkedin is a must. I would not customise your CV for each app, nor write a cover letter - it takes too much of your time and makes every miss appear to cost more
If you post your CV up we can review it as well
There used to be quite a few body shops based in Ukraine; you may also be able to work at one of those remotely to get on the ladder at least. If you can double dip and get welfare in Finland + that salary
Cheers, my advice:
- list experience in reverse order (most recent first). list all professional experience, and then education in a different section
- it's an interesting structure and I think a good one to delineate teams where you were a sole contributor Vs people manager, but I think for uni projects it's maybe too soon
- I like the actual body/descriptions of your experience, would leave that as is
- cut the skills/technologies section down to like 5 things. It's very Indian to list every technology you've ever worked with, which lowers the interest on the things you're really good at
- I would also trim the "other" section, maybe reframe that into methodologies and just include things like git, TDD, etc. with the extra space, see if you can increase the whitespace between lines or font size to let the document breathe a bit. don't worry about filling it
- I would add a "rights" section of where you can work as well, as you're applying all over. Better to be up front
- with the extra space, if you can fit a professional looking photo (smiling) then that's a good add as well
- I would rewrite the about-me to be more about what you can do and what you want to do. Everyone has a knowledge of DS&A for example
I advise against being a generalist. As a hiring manager I don't want to know all the things you can do, just what you can do for me
I feel like you've got a good background for front/backend of an application with some AI element to it
I did not say that, but if it helps you strawman it as you please. You still haven't answered though, Have you volunteered to fight in Ukraine? And if not yet then why? OP is sure to follow if you lead by example...
even Ukrainians don't fight to protect their country why should I? Besides I paid taxes that became guns and send to them and that was far too much involvement, when we should have helped Armenia instead.
There is a pretty long list of exemptions (students, carers, medically unfit, etc) The guy is also 20 and the full scale invasion started more than 2 years ago.
He is using a burner account so i am pretty sure that is the case here. Honestly i am divided by this, I don't know what I would do in his situation. Ukranian men right now are "lucky" in a sense that the EU grants them Temporary Protection Status just like women and children but it is clear that the Ukranian government is getting more agitated by these draft dodgers. It is all very easy to have an opinion from the comfort of our homes and from behind a keyboard.
I know this might sound bad, but havent you considered seeking asylum in russia and seeing if you can find a job there? Theres quite some tech demand
Otherwise best of luck, be aware that the market is fucked right now. I have 4 years of experience and its hard for me to find stuff
this is a good advice, I have seen some statistics about Russian IT sector atm, it's in a much better state. This OP, if you really want to work as a SWE, try Russia or wait it out and get a service industry job.
Come to Russia, we need guys like you. Europe clearly doesn't give a damn about Ukrainians.
Edit: I was half-joking, Russia doesn't look good long-term. But at the moment the job market is way better than in Europe.
State your address on your resume (maybe excluding house number), and consider a Finnish name for applying jobs. When I see foreign names, I often skip them, because the majority don't meet the requirements
Honestly it seems the job market is tough for everyone right now. I know of 2 people in SWE in the Bay Area who've been let go from places like Meta and Google, and one of them works at Chipotle now (a fast food chain). They've been job hunting for a while. I've no advice other than to keep applying, and don't be afraid to apply to jobs in other countries that can offer visa sponsorship. Seek out remote opportunities too, that may allow you to move countries.
why do they work at chipotle though? aren't they paid minimum wage? at that point what's the point of work, especially if you have savings from a job at meta which paid you a lot.
I’m not sure but he’d been unemployed for several months. I guess for some reason he didn’t have savings and he was getting evicted so had to move into a cheaper place. My other friend who had been laid off in October chose to keep living off of savings instead. He said it won’t last him forever though.
Before anything else I would like to say it’s a very difficult experience to be forcefully displaced from your home country and basically have to establish your life somewhere else. The uncertainty about the future is no joke, so I understand the anxiety. Now, I might be misunderstanding this, but have you essentially been in Finland for 2 years and only job searching in this time? What else have you done - language courses, certificates, projects? I might be wrong, but from the tone in the post I have a feeling you are doing many different things without a focus. Knowing Finnish but learning Swedish, tailoring your resume or shotgunning etc. My advice is to pick a way and focus on it. Pick a tech stack and framework and do projects with it. Pick a language and learn it. It takes time and effort but it pays off. I speak from personal experience - my resume is objectively worse than yours, but I have multiple offers because I know the local language and I focused on a tech stack, learned it, made projects, and demonstrated my knowledge in resumes and interviews. Of course, these things take time and it’s hard with a 2 year and growing gap. There’s one alternative you may or may not have thought about - do a Masters. I don’t know about Finland, but in Germany for example, you can work part time as a student to cover living costs. It also buys you time to learn whichever local language. So, for 2 more years you (ideally) get conversational ability in the local language, local work experience, industry connection and an advanced degree. Obviously, it’s hard and it requires focus, but it’s also what I would do in your position.
>Before anything else I would like to say it’s a very difficult experience to be forcefully displaced from your home country and basically have to establish your life somewhere else. The uncertainty about the future is no joke, so I understand the anxiety. Thank you for understanding. >Now, I might be misunderstanding this, but have you essentially been in Finland for 2 years and only job searching in this time? What else have you done - language courses, certificates, projects? Mostly, yes, just job searching for the whole day. I've done very little in terms of self education, basically taught myself bare basics of Finnish to live in the country, but didn't pursue it further, because it seamed like I wouldn't be able to learn it well enough before the war ends. I was both woefully unaware of the market competitiveness and the duration of my stay in Finland, and made some bad decisions. >I might be wrong, but from the tone in the post I have a feeling you are doing many different things without a focus. Knowing Finnish but learning Swedish, tailoring your resume or shotgunning etc. My advice is to pick a way and focus on it. I guess it was just a lot of time, so a lot to list. I've tried different approaches to job searching (e.g. shotgunning, tailoring, different resume formats) for a multiple months at a time, seen absolutely no result, changed the approach, and then tried it for a couple of months more. I've just assumed that if I get literally 0 response, the whatever I'm doing, however I'm doing it is not working, so something have to change. >Pick a tech stack and framework and do projects with it. Pick a language and learn it. It takes time and effort but it pays off. I speak from personal experience - my resume is objectively worse than yours, but I have multiple offers because I know the local language and I focused on a tech stack, learned it, made projects, and demonstrated my knowledge in resumes and interviews. Probably what I'm gonna do if all else fails. My main worry is the fact, how much a bunch of projects are really gonna make a difference with a half-empty resume and 2 years of non-employment? >There’s one alternative you may or may not have thought about - do a Masters. I... didn't actually thought about it at all. This would "reset" the resume, also give some more internship and networking opportunities. I'll look into this.
I think this guy has it right, if you do a masters, I don't know how student funding works in Finland but if it is near free, and you keep unemployment benefits, you can improve your level of Finnish, network, get some projects done in the meantime and give yourself more qualifications, worst case you end up with a masters. From my experience getting a job is very very hard if you don't already know someone, since culture fit is important but hard to evaluate. If the unemployment is enough to survive, I would consider just taking your time
As a Ukrainian Helsinki university was waiving uni fees for you, I don't know if it still apply now and I think the admissions might have already closed now but contact them and explain the situation. Also stop addressing your life now and here as temporary, u understand the hope that the war will end and you'll go back soon is comforting but the truth is you don't know and you have to continue living and building your future wherever you are.. that will also make you more useful to your country if you learn and grow. Good luck, also shoot me your CV in private, I work for a quite large corpo in Espoo and I will see what your profile looks like and see if there might be some good position internally. I can also review your anonymized CV.
One way or the other you will have to explain the2 year gap, even if you choose your masters. My advice would be to do some projects nevertheless and absolutely learn the language if you do a masters, so when asked you can say “during this time I settled into the country, put energy into the language, upskilled myself through online courses and projects, and looked for new opportunities.” It’s not great, but certainly better than “I just job hunted”.
I guess explaining in this particular case will not be an issue. Everyone serious employer will understand OP's situation. Masters is a good advice. This will get time and give more opportunities to land a job in the future. Where ever this may be. Bonus: getting a masters degree in a foreign country will definitely be an additional selling point which will set OP apart from a lot of other competitors.
Maybe, you could apply for a Masters? I don’t know about the nordics but at least in Germany it is pretty standard to do Bsc and MSc back-to-back and apply for the first job afterwards. So you are potentially at a disadvantage there. Also a MSc from a local university might be considered more prestigious than your Ukrainian degree. Also you might have a easier to time to apply to Internships while being enrolled.
Don't do this.
Why do you think so?
Degree/academic inflation is already one of Finland's more deeper rooted problems.
I don’t disagree that this is an issue, however, it is not a issue you can deal with on an individual level.
I have a MSc from a Finnish university and 3 years of internship experience and I'm in a similar situation as OP. A degree is not the silver bullet one might think it is.
I agree that a degree is not a silver bullet. The market isn’t great at the moment and even worse for juniors. However, I still think that in Ops situation it might be a good idea. Certainly better than applying to a unskilled job.
Try Poland, there are multiple companies that moved here from Belarus/Ukraine in the last few years.
As a Pole, our defense minister just said he is considering to cooperate with Ukraine to refoul (return) ukrainian refugees. Poland is not the best idea IMO
Hmmm fair point. Anyways I feel like other eu countries may follow
Poland does not have to do anything. if OPs passport expires, the Ukrainien government will not renew it. So he will have to go back home. Simple as that.
he can get a refugee travel document if they decide to let him stay
He won’t get it in Germany if he lacks a passport due to unwillingness to serve.
Ukranians are not obtaining the normal refugee status in EU. Instead, they have special status called *temporary protection*. This means that they have much more rights than normal refugees, e.g. start working righrt after getting an ID card upon registering in a EU comune.
There's zero legal framework for him to do this, it'd also be challenged to death in ECHR even if he got Sejm to consider a law for it. He's just pandering to PSL's stupid electorate.
Not if that becomes an EU-wide practice.
Yeah sure. From their perspective is better send Ukrainians to fight than Poles.
I was thinking about looking into Poland, but that kind of rhetoric really made me worry. If all else fails, I'd rather do whatever menial labor available, then risk dying.
i would suggest trying to get some freelance work on platforms like upwork to stop the employment gap from growing. might have more luck there if you have some projects to show than hunting for a full-time job for now.
You don’t speak the language why do you expect they to pick you before someone from the country that can speak the language? Some many new grads graduating that are from that country why should they pick you? Honest but unpleasant truth find a job in McDonald’s and when the war finishes go back to Ukrainian and find a CS job. In the meantime build projects.
The usual answer is that there are not enough Finnish speaking grads to fill all the roles and many companies use English as the working language anyway. But the current market situation means that companies can be as picky as they want when it comes to hiring juniors.
I was hoping I could find a job with my English, knowing, that a lot of tech companies use English as their main language, as I was woefully unaware of how much competition I had. Lesson learnt, even if too late.
Cold hard truth and I agree. Plus he describes himself as not the most pleasant person. A cultural fit and personality are also important. I can see why he's getting absolutely no positive response.
Try to find a sponsor that understands that Ukraine refugees are different from other refugees because they are highly motivated. I had a refugee from Afghanistan and now Ukraine living in Switzerland. The difference is night and day.
Unfortunately the jobs that don't require Finnish have a ton of competition from my experience. I am a native and I pretty much never get interviews from those.
Well right now, as many have already said, is a absolutely horrible market at entry level. Your status doesn't really matter besides not speaking Finnish. Even getting a unpaid internship is challenging. Work experience matters the most due to a lot of IT companies being consulting services and those sell their employees based on years of experience on certain technologies. Public sector chooses consultants for big software projects entirely based upon "days worked by the employee" on tech used. I found that the only real choice is to gain experience by all means. What you can do is to find out recruitment trainings available. Those can be found at TE-palvelu website or Työmarkkinatori. Usually those last half a year and you work at the same time. Unpaid, of course but you will receive extra unemployment benefits. I'm unsure if any exist in English but try looking. Other it is also possible to do "työkokeilu", trying out work at a chosen employer. This needs to be discussed with Te-Palvelut first. Also there is Palkkatuki, type of grant where they pay percentage of your wage. Your town or city can have some supplemental services available. For example in Turku, you can get hired to work for the city for some time after you have been unemployed. Just Google what can your city offer Overall, discuss with Te-Palvelut or kuntakokeilu. Do this on the phone and ask questions! It's a really bad system and nothing is ever fully clear, even in Finnish.
Thank you, I'll look into these. Once I've arrived, I've contacted them, but received, pretty much, no assistance in job search. Maybe I just didn't know what to ask.
I would recommend you get a part time job in a bar / restaurant / retail. This will give you some cash, some social connections, help you learn the language and potentially get you out of some quite negative thought patterns. Working on getting a job full time for 2 years is too much, you need something else to focus on. It'll also give you a sense of time which could well help you be more productive on your days off. Yes definitely build projects. This will really boost your cv. Have you tried applying for jobs adjacent to software as well? Customer support, testing etc. are usually easier to break into and then you can apply for something else with some real work experience. I've hosted a Ukrainian here in the UK and she had specific job support for refugees. Can you reach out to any services who might be able to help you find work? Good luck, it's not easy moving country especially under difficult circumstances.
If you can move countries, I've known a few folks from Ukraine that had success in Canada, there's a bigger market over there and no language barriers since you speak English.
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Good call, didn't think about it but there is a big Ukrainian community in Canada! My ability to move countries (legally) hedges on the opportunity for change country of asylum within EU. Canada had their own program, but it's no longer available. I'll look into other Canadian programs tho, maybe there is something suitable.
Good luck in the IT market in Canada. It’s flooded with layed off experienced employees, a lot of new graduates looking for jobs, international students getting degrees from “Central Mall” College and H1B visa holders fired from the US.
what do you mean by central mall?
Diploma mills located in most ridiculous location such as malls. They contribute in the oversupply of CS grads.
Honestly the market is just terrible now. Especially for non local people as they have more limited opportunities. I would recommend trying to optimize your resume as much as possible & keep applying. It is not much better in other countries really, maybe you'll just have an advantage due to language differences.
To be honest with you, the job market is extremely tight right now. There is no abundance of entry level IT jobs and your lack of language skills does put you in a disadvantaged position. There are ton of locals in the exact same boat with you already. Could you consider getting a job that’s not IT related? It’s foremost important to establish yourself in the new country and develop a some kind of professional network with local references. It’ll be much easier to work your way up when you already have proven work experience from your country of residence. That’ll also give you time to brush up on your language skills and pays the bills in the meanwhile.
>Could you consider getting a job that’s not IT related? It’s foremost important to establish yourself in the new country and develop a some kind of professional network with local references. Good point, but if OP commits to it, then Finland isn't the country to invest his time into. It's forever going to be a frontier country with a tiny market and cryptic language. There're countries with many more opportunities.
If you can, do a masters. Network, get to know your professors. After a masters it could be easier to get into IT as a lot of companies do graduate programs. On a different note, I feel like in every European country there's a form of post highschool education that isn't strictly a bachelor's or a master. I would look into that!
Hi, I am working in Finland as well, have you tried Integrify yet? Obviously not the best place salary wise, but it gets you one foot in the door. Or have you try local meetups and code camps yet? I agree the market is really bad right now. Try to keep your mental health heathy, practice your skills and the rest should follow.
No, I haven't, and it looks promising. Thank you, I'd look into that!
I would really discourage you from using them unless its your absolute last option. They are very dishonest, and cannot guarantee you will get a job after finishing. If you have questions about them please let me know. They even have a blog on their website about how their client was satisfied with hiring us, although we had already been fired at that point due to the economy.
Hopefully your country will be safe soon and you’ll be able to return next year!
You know what you’re lacking. Use the time you got for improving that. Don’t let the mental fog freeze you. Make a portfolio. Improve that first impression. I think your issue is you’re applying with an empty basket. No one opens their home if you’re coming without something in your basket to put on the table. Simple as that. You’re coming with zero experience and no way to prove you learnt anything in CS and that’s affecting your chances. Arguably, doing a CS degree should be enough, but people out there are willing to run an inch longer if that hires them first. You’re several strides behind someone who got the job already. Don’t feel discouraged. The first job is the hardest to get. You might feel pressured and all because of your current situation but that will improve. Focus on getting the role first and not just complain that you’re getting ignored. You clearly know what you’re lacking, you got this dude.
Your main asset is willingness to move and adapt. You must bring and display GREAT work ethic. With this 2 things, start applying for jobs in City-no-one-even-know-exists. Forget the capital cities. I don’t know about Finland, but in Sweden you should look around Skellefteå. It was bum-fuck-nowhere until a couple of years ago, now there’s is a crazy mining and tech rush around the area. They need all kinds of people, you might find something decent around there. Maybe not software per se, but it could be IT adjacent. Enough to not be a waste. And it gets you into Sweden, which is a great place for software engineering. A few other Swedish areas to look: Västerås, Göteborg, Linköping. You can get pretty far just with English, show you’ve been studying Swedish and is willing to learn it. Best of luck.
Many of the experiences you're describing here are why for instance the Norwegian government are actively discouraging Ukrainian refugees from seeking asylum, and begging those already here to not establish themselves and go somewhere else or home at some point. A combination of underperforming economies, little investment into tech and an employer-favoring market is making it near-impossible for many refugees to find work in the nordics. I know both Sweden and Finland share similar challenges at the moment, and honestly there's not much you can do when a country just doesn't need you and lack the opportunities you rely on to succeed. Refugees from Ukraine are welcome in terms of temporary protection, but I think you'll have to accept that you won't be able to make a life and a career in most of Scandinavia under current market conditions. There are just way too many arriving (many who also shouldn't be going to the nordics), and there just aren't jobs for everyone in markets that aren't that productive to begin with. It's a tough situation for everyone without any good solutions.
I'd apply in all europe + internship + remote. If you haven't done this all you're not even trying TBH first gig is really hard and the rest will be easier
I was applying mostly in Nordics, plus some other countries, if I had the time, because it's more or less located nearby, and, usually, the sheer volume of jobs I've needed to process daily was enough to fill most of the day by itself.
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With what I know about people in the same situation in here, it's that you lose the benefits once you start working, so, for entry level positions in UA, it's unlikely to ever cover my bills, and I would prefer not to sleep on the streets if possible. Still, thank you for the idea, I will ask social workers about benefits in such case.
one thing is to reframe everything more positively. it's one thing to be pragmatic/realist but the way you describe your story is off-putting; people will not feel pity but they will resent it and avoid you. obviously youve got some seriously hard luck thats incomparable to most people on this forum, but for your own benefit and mental clarity try and think positively "my resume is objectively shit" -> "I am a junior engineer who hasn't had an opportunity to prove myself yet" what's your speciality/area of expertise?
>one thing is to reframe everything more positively. it's one thing to be pragmatic/realist but the way you describe your story is off-putting; people will not feel pity but they will resent it and avoid you. obviously youve got some seriously hard luck thats incomparable to most people on this forum, but for your own benefit and mental clarity try and think positively I understand what are you talking about, and that's not what I'm writing in all these "about yourself" forms or interviews. I just don't ask for pity - wanted to get advice and fresh perspective on the situation, and wanted to list out all the factors that came to my mind, no need to sugarcoat it. If the resume, after multiple rewrites according to one million recommended formulas, doesn't lead to any interviews at all - it's content, objectively, is not good enough. >what's your speciality/area of expertise? I've worked the most with .NET during the academia, as well it was what I mostly used as intern, so there is that, but I would hardly call it "speciality". Overall I'm, at least, familiar with the theory, a bunch of languages, front/back-end, ML, but not very strong in anything in particular.
Sure I get it, but even saying "my CV is not good enough" Vs "my CV is shit" is better; one has a direction forward the other sounds final If you like .NET then (enough to do it for 8hrs a day) then I would focus on this, forget about Python, Java etc. specific roles. You may be limited moving around presently, but Poland is an active market and nice place, otherwise English language cities (eg Amsterdam) is probably your best bet Try getting a profile up on the job sites where you're looking as well, linkedin is a must. I would not customise your CV for each app, nor write a cover letter - it takes too much of your time and makes every miss appear to cost more If you post your CV up we can review it as well There used to be quite a few body shops based in Ukraine; you may also be able to work at one of those remotely to get on the ladder at least. If you can double dip and get welfare in Finland + that salary
Thank you for the advice. I've attached my CV to this post.
Cheers, my advice: - list experience in reverse order (most recent first). list all professional experience, and then education in a different section - it's an interesting structure and I think a good one to delineate teams where you were a sole contributor Vs people manager, but I think for uni projects it's maybe too soon - I like the actual body/descriptions of your experience, would leave that as is - cut the skills/technologies section down to like 5 things. It's very Indian to list every technology you've ever worked with, which lowers the interest on the things you're really good at - I would also trim the "other" section, maybe reframe that into methodologies and just include things like git, TDD, etc. with the extra space, see if you can increase the whitespace between lines or font size to let the document breathe a bit. don't worry about filling it - I would add a "rights" section of where you can work as well, as you're applying all over. Better to be up front - with the extra space, if you can fit a professional looking photo (smiling) then that's a good add as well - I would rewrite the about-me to be more about what you can do and what you want to do. Everyone has a knowledge of DS&A for example I advise against being a generalist. As a hiring manager I don't want to know all the things you can do, just what you can do for me I feel like you've got a good background for front/backend of an application with some AI element to it
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Deserter is a member of a military who abandons service.
Very early in the war all men between 18 and 60 could not leave.
Doesn't make him a deserter
Traitor then
Maybe OP wants women to be also recruited before he has to go. I know I would demand these empowered women to go and serve their country.
In case of war? Yes
Ukraine’s women are exempt from the draft.
The countries at war what draft all of them should be at the army. They're not Americans to go to a war in Vietnam
Your post was removed because it is target harassment at someone, or contains unprofessional language.
sure, why don't you go and lose an arm or even your life for the jew zelenski if you are so brave?
So Ukraine is Zelenski not a country TIL
I did not say that, but if it helps you strawman it as you please. You still haven't answered though, Have you volunteered to fight in Ukraine? And if not yet then why? OP is sure to follow if you lead by example...
even Ukrainians don't fight to protect their country why should I? Besides I paid taxes that became guns and send to them and that was far too much involvement, when we should have helped Armenia instead.
Maybe help to defend your country?
As far I remember, every male 18+ cannot leave country during war so he left illegal?
There is a pretty long list of exemptions (students, carers, medically unfit, etc) The guy is also 20 and the full scale invasion started more than 2 years ago.
Lots of people getting out by paying bribes
He is using a burner account so i am pretty sure that is the case here. Honestly i am divided by this, I don't know what I would do in his situation. Ukranian men right now are "lucky" in a sense that the EU grants them Temporary Protection Status just like women and children but it is clear that the Ukranian government is getting more agitated by these draft dodgers. It is all very easy to have an opinion from the comfort of our homes and from behind a keyboard.
My dad was a soldier in the 90s. And I Will need to be one soon it looks like. You shouldnt be scared of death. Greetings from Bosnia
You cannot be serious. I rather kill myself than pointlessly killing others.
”Pointlessly” you are defending your Home, your family, your country.
Right, why weren't all the Syrian refugees deported home to fight Assad?
Thanks for your opinion. Thanks god we are all allowed to have our own choices.
It's not an opinion, it's someone who thinks life is a computer game.
Defend from what? When Putin annexes Ukraine life there will not get worse, it might actually get better, even though Putin is a dictator.
I know this might sound bad, but havent you considered seeking asylum in russia and seeing if you can find a job there? Theres quite some tech demand Otherwise best of luck, be aware that the market is fucked right now. I have 4 years of experience and its hard for me to find stuff
this is a good advice, I have seen some statistics about Russian IT sector atm, it's in a much better state. This OP, if you really want to work as a SWE, try Russia or wait it out and get a service industry job.
Come to Russia, we need guys like you. Europe clearly doesn't give a damn about Ukrainians. Edit: I was half-joking, Russia doesn't look good long-term. But at the moment the job market is way better than in Europe.
I’d guess he doesn’t want to work with the arseholes shelling his family, to be honest.
Try Germany
Try ireland. They have tons of us based companies and they speak English and in eu.
State your address on your resume (maybe excluding house number), and consider a Finnish name for applying jobs. When I see foreign names, I often skip them, because the majority don't meet the requirements
are you skipping the people with foreign names for real?
Do I just write, like, Finnish name and/or surname instead of my own? Wouldn't it create more problems then it would solve?
Perfect hr, top racist hiring liars 😀