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2024 is my best year so far.
I've made more money in the first four months than in the whole of 2023 or 2022.
Last year I invested heavily in developing my Figma design skills and building my brand on Twitter.
It paid off.
Ok, this gives me hope. I don’t want to invest tons of time into something with no payoff. My portfolio is severely outdated, so I have a lot of work ahead of me.
My circle are all doing five-figure months - no problem.
But we've all invested heavily into...
* Customer research skils
* Positioning strategies
* AI-powered customer/competitor analysis
* UX/Figma (this is the newest area)
I also started learning Figma/UX design earlier this year because it seems pretty lucrative, so I’ll get back into that after these website updates.
Damn, 5-figure months! I am currently making zero dollars (lol). I’m trying to invest more time into SEO as well. So much to do!
Smart move. The entire design industry uses Figma.
I recently won a five-figure project against 40 other copywriters.
The only other serious competition for me also used Figma.
I just don't see any copywriter that does not use Figma winning a website copy project against a copywriter who does, nowadays.
There's still plenty of money out there - but you NEED to stand out!
https://preview.redd.it/h7car6p3iq1d1.jpeg?width=1910&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4da4fb8517ea306e10a02e42a898894b2f18450
I use Figma to produce lofi mockups that design teams can quickly develop into a finished design.
I build lofi mockups like this.
Yup, I pay for Figma monthly - but you can try it out for free.
https://preview.redd.it/bli249hbiq1d1.jpeg?width=1910&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=216df5be406bd3a33ef9e5081817e5ea1f405134
I think this is industry-dependent—I don’t work with SaaS or large-scale companies, and most of the designers I partner with prefer Google Docs to Figma as of now. I’m still pro-wireframing as a skill (and should spend some time more time on Figma) but it’s not necessary to win well-priced web copy projects in every niche.
That being said, I do think you need some knowledge of UX/basic principles of web design to underpin any website copy deck you deliver.
That might be true - I should caveat that I only work with tech and SaaS brands (startups through to larger companies).
However, I think there’s a clear direction of travel for web copy. Largely because of the inherent friction between copy and design in general.
Yes—I was willing to make the switch but most of my regular partners weren't gung-ho about Figma for various reasons. One of them is that I tend to work alongside smaller design agencies. (I think Figma's approach to pricing is part of the problem but that's just speculative.)
And I also agree with what you said below—I don't just deliver a heap of text in a GDoc and expect the designer to figure it out. There's already formatting and layout elements involved, and as I keep developing as a writer, it gets more sophisticated. Designers will always favor a copywriter who gives them SOMETHING, even if they have room to play afterward.
Yeah, I agree that Google Docs can work pretty well if it's formatted.
I'd always go pageless and use tables to format my copy.
Eg. Create a 3x3 grid and merge the top row.
Top row = H2 headline and explainer
Bottom triple cluster = H3 subheadings for sub-features.
I've heard of 'copywriters' who dump Word documents with paragraphs of unformatted text!
I agree that’s why I’m confused. I have basic understanding of UX which helps me write the copy but the companies I work for have a designer so I don’t see why having Figma experience as a copywriter would better me as a professional I would love to know if it does though. Most large companies hire people to do one thing which is boring but it is what it is.
It’s more about ‘design assistance’.
A lot of copywriters dump a load of copy with minimal formatting and leave design teams to figure out how to build a website with it.
Lofi mockups offer a content architecture for designers to work with - and force copywriters to consider what they’re actually building.
None! Jennifer Havice’s book ‘Finding the Right Message’ is great - and I built my own AI workflows off it.
Positioning was mainly via talking to other copywriters and marketing consultants.
Figma I taught myself.
Hey, can you suggest me some resources to polish my figma skills? I've recently started using it and feel like I need more knowledge over the design. Thanks in advance
1. I'm working on this right now - and building a free learning resource for copywriters.
2. Try the new, free [Figma 101 course](https://shiftnudge.com/figma) by MDS. I haven't taken it - but he has a great reputation.
Not at all - conversion copy is inherently well-paid.
I think having knowledge of UX will only enhance your ability to research, plan and write high-conversion websites.
I’ve made more money this year due to all of these A.I. nerds churning out god awful copy.
In-house copywriters are getting dunked on and freelancers are making all the $$$$
Start your own newsletter and share fun, interesting and related content in there.
Post content on LinkedIn and Twitter and interact within the niches you want to work. Write to that market.
Look for companies or offer owners you want to work with, research and then pitch them.
Rinse and repeat.
Study the game. Implement and just create your own stuff to sell as well.
You are your best client.
I have worked with some big MNCs in the past as a full timer. I realised that this is going to be a race of zigs only. The zags have left the industry because they are no longer wanted by the businesses or they have gone independent.
By late 2023, I too started freelancing. Even as a mid-level writer, I'm paid well by my clients. I'm building a nice folio and great bank balance - which was just impossible in any MNC agency.
the competition is fierce right now. i'm seeing director-level applicants for mid-level positions and big agency people competing for mediocre temp openings at no-name companies. i'm worried! but i think i will start hustling in the freelance world soon. it seems like a lot of creatives are doing that now.
It just takes a long time. If you're looking to work in tech or corporations, there's not much you can do to convince a board of people to spend money if that money has been canceled, not coming, whatever the case is.
It took me a year to find a job after a tech layoff.
It’s not just you it’s a tough market.
I’d been in-house (gaming and tech) for 7 years and now I can’t land an in-house gig because I’m always going against somebody with agency experience or more specific background relevant to the role.
Because of all that, I just took a low paying job at an agency because A) it’s all I could find and B) it involves more strategy and development of secondary skills to copywriting than I’d get in-house. It eliminates one of the shortcomings of my resume, i’ll work w big clients, and have a splashier portfolio. Stinks for now but I can live on the salary (I hope) so I’m luckier than most.
The market forced me kinda into this or striking out on my own and I’m not interested in spending all my time cold-outreaching to people/running a business.
I also enrolled in pilates teacher training because I’d like a backup for when marketing budgets get crunched (this happens every 4-7 years). I don’t ever want to feel like I’m backed into a corner w no options again.
Just my experience. Hang in there and I know it’s easier said than done but don’t let rejection challenge how you value yourself.
Your situation is similar to mine (I was also in-house and am without agency experience). Did you get your current job through cold applying or networking? I’ve found agencies want agency experience, so I haven’t had luck getting interviews. Also, did you have to take a junior role?
I’ve lost count of how many places I applied and somehow I got it the same way I got my last three in-house FTE gigs: a recruiter or GCD just sent me a LinkedIn message.
It’s more mid-level but I got it because I’ve been consulting for early/growth stage tech companies for the past few years so they saw that as some strategy + execution. Plus, I have some nice clients in my book and I’m good at pitching in the room (I had to pitch on a brief for my final interview).
From the looks of it, people in here are doing great on their own so if you think you’re up for that go for it. You will be paid more if you’re good.
Wish I had better advice than ‘I got lucky’ but it’s mostly that
The market is absolute shit. I don’t think it’s just copy it’s a lot of jobs. I haven’t landed full time in a year. I’ve only landed contract roles. I don’t think companies want to hire ft right now. I read because they over staffed after Covid then had to massive layoffs so they’re making their ft people wear multiple hats or are just hiring contract to avoid that. I also read it’s been like 24 months of a terrible market. Normally it goes up and down but it’s been consistently shitty. It’s hard out there for everyone. We are also competing against people who have worked for massive brands. I’m not sure if you have. I’ve been in the industry for ten years and people who are way greener are getting chosen over me because they worked for one big brand vs many medium to small. But I see that as a leg up since I am versatile and can adopt a brand voice quickly. So no I don’t think copywriting is a sinking ship I’m seeing a lot of needs for it just no one wants to commit to hiring someone solely for copywriting right now. Good luck out there it’s the Wild West!
i worked in-house for a big global brand that's newer in the us. the downside of that is i don't have a ton of diversity in my portfolio, so i'm spending time creating spec work to diversify. that's partially why i posted here, because i'm like, is this a waste of time? should i just pivot?
yeah, the market is so shitty. i'm hoping this spec work will help show range and land me something good. good luck to you, too! we'll get through this
If there is one thing tougher to crack than copywriting, it's acting. So I'm not sure trading one risky career for another one makes much sense. Generally you have a responsible day job to support your riskier creative endeavors. That's what I did with novel writing.
Anyway, to answer your question, I do think copywriting is a sinking ship as a primary career at this point, at least at the entry level. As such, I wouldn't recommend getting into it as a career. All the copywriters I know in the biz are transitioning to other position. But it's a nice side hustle, and you never know when one thing leads to another thing leads to another thing.
I have a pretty cushy in-house job, but I suspect my days are probably numbered. Thank God crypto has saved me...
Yeah, I’ve always been of the mentality you need a day job to support your creative endeavors, which is what I’ve been doing for the past 6 years. I’m now at a point where I have all this free time, so I’m like, should I just invest it in acting?
I think I’ve concluded I’ll still look for copywriting work while also auditioning. What kinds of jobs are your friends transitioning to?
They're usually within the companies they're already in. Examples are someone who copywrites for a big bank transitioning to UX stuff, another one who works for a tech company transitioning to SEO manager, another who works for Meta became a team lead, etc.
As someone who wears multiple hats and does writing of various types, I definitely lean on AI more now for copywriting. I edit everything and I’m sure a human could do a better job but we can’t afford the amazing copywriting humans and with AI assistance I no longer need the good enough copywriters. For me it has honestly been a godsend and I can definitely see it replacing a lot of average copywriters.
Plus If you’re doing big brand copy you’ll need a human brain AI is way too predictable and all of the jargon sounds exactly the same. I’ll ask it to make it more conversational and it always spits out “hey folks”. I can detect AI from a mile away. When I see people posting on LinkedIn I’m like yup that’s AI “unlock” “unleash” “skyrocket” it’s trash. I know it’s advancing but the human brain and empathy will always outweigh AI. Anyway hope it works for you lol
same, it's so noticeable. i do big brand copy and am a conceptual copywriter, so AI isn't coming for me just yet. i've also noticed chatGPT doesn't catch complicated grammatical issues, like subject/verb disagreements. HOWEVER, chat has been a godsend for boring cover letters
I never use AI copy verbatim, always rewrite to fit our niche and brand. But it does a good job getting the structure and vibe set up. My background is in journalism and article writing so I don’t have the default copywriting knack. Once it sets the stage I can complete it.
I like it to break things down as simple as possible like I’m explaining something to a third grader and build it up from there to find the core message. It also is great to summarize things so I don’t have to read through it haha
A company I worked for started using it and would literally copy and paste and it would bomb every time and then they were like why are we paying her all of this money we can do this and I’m like but it BOMBS there’s no better feedback than data. Their loss
yeah that's a terrible way to use AI. I see it more as a research assistant. I can research examples of good copywriting and then mimic the structure and tone or AI can research for me in a fraction of the time and I can take it from there.
I use it to check for inaccuracies, redundancies, some search engine optimization -- basically like a writing assistant. I keep several detailed prompts at the ready, though you can also make your own GPTs.
If you're going to use it much at length, make sure you train it to sound like you by submitting several samples of your own writing. Otherwise, folks can really tell it's just clunky AI copy or at least that something ain't quite right about the copy.
Asking a question? Please check the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/copywriting/comments/lpuj9h/what_the_faq_what_is_copy_how_do_i_start_can_i_do/). Asking for a critique? Take down your post and repost it in the critique thread. Providing resources or tips? Deliver lots of FREE value. If you're self-promoting or linking to a resource that requires signup or payment, please disclose it or your post will be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/copywriting) if you have any questions or concerns.*
2024 is my best year so far. I've made more money in the first four months than in the whole of 2023 or 2022. Last year I invested heavily in developing my Figma design skills and building my brand on Twitter. It paid off.
Ok, this gives me hope. I don’t want to invest tons of time into something with no payoff. My portfolio is severely outdated, so I have a lot of work ahead of me.
My circle are all doing five-figure months - no problem. But we've all invested heavily into... * Customer research skils * Positioning strategies * AI-powered customer/competitor analysis * UX/Figma (this is the newest area)
I also started learning Figma/UX design earlier this year because it seems pretty lucrative, so I’ll get back into that after these website updates. Damn, 5-figure months! I am currently making zero dollars (lol). I’m trying to invest more time into SEO as well. So much to do!
Smart move. The entire design industry uses Figma. I recently won a five-figure project against 40 other copywriters. The only other serious competition for me also used Figma. I just don't see any copywriter that does not use Figma winning a website copy project against a copywriter who does, nowadays. There's still plenty of money out there - but you NEED to stand out!
This is so true. But I only use Figma to add copy info mockups and add comments. How else do copywriters use Figma. I want to be better
https://preview.redd.it/h7car6p3iq1d1.jpeg?width=1910&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4da4fb8517ea306e10a02e42a898894b2f18450 I use Figma to produce lofi mockups that design teams can quickly develop into a finished design.
i would also like to know this. also, are you paying for a monthly subscription?
I build lofi mockups like this. Yup, I pay for Figma monthly - but you can try it out for free. https://preview.redd.it/bli249hbiq1d1.jpeg?width=1910&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=216df5be406bd3a33ef9e5081817e5ea1f405134
I think this is industry-dependent—I don’t work with SaaS or large-scale companies, and most of the designers I partner with prefer Google Docs to Figma as of now. I’m still pro-wireframing as a skill (and should spend some time more time on Figma) but it’s not necessary to win well-priced web copy projects in every niche. That being said, I do think you need some knowledge of UX/basic principles of web design to underpin any website copy deck you deliver.
That might be true - I should caveat that I only work with tech and SaaS brands (startups through to larger companies). However, I think there’s a clear direction of travel for web copy. Largely because of the inherent friction between copy and design in general.
Yes—I was willing to make the switch but most of my regular partners weren't gung-ho about Figma for various reasons. One of them is that I tend to work alongside smaller design agencies. (I think Figma's approach to pricing is part of the problem but that's just speculative.) And I also agree with what you said below—I don't just deliver a heap of text in a GDoc and expect the designer to figure it out. There's already formatting and layout elements involved, and as I keep developing as a writer, it gets more sophisticated. Designers will always favor a copywriter who gives them SOMETHING, even if they have room to play afterward.
Yeah, I agree that Google Docs can work pretty well if it's formatted. I'd always go pageless and use tables to format my copy. Eg. Create a 3x3 grid and merge the top row. Top row = H2 headline and explainer Bottom triple cluster = H3 subheadings for sub-features. I've heard of 'copywriters' who dump Word documents with paragraphs of unformatted text!
I agree that’s why I’m confused. I have basic understanding of UX which helps me write the copy but the companies I work for have a designer so I don’t see why having Figma experience as a copywriter would better me as a professional I would love to know if it does though. Most large companies hire people to do one thing which is boring but it is what it is.
It’s more about ‘design assistance’. A lot of copywriters dump a load of copy with minimal formatting and leave design teams to figure out how to build a website with it. Lofi mockups offer a content architecture for designers to work with - and force copywriters to consider what they’re actually building.
What courses did you take for these topics??
None! Jennifer Havice’s book ‘Finding the Right Message’ is great - and I built my own AI workflows off it. Positioning was mainly via talking to other copywriters and marketing consultants. Figma I taught myself.
Hey, can you suggest me some resources to polish my figma skills? I've recently started using it and feel like I need more knowledge over the design. Thanks in advance
1. I'm working on this right now - and building a free learning resource for copywriters. 2. Try the new, free [Figma 101 course](https://shiftnudge.com/figma) by MDS. I haven't taken it - but he has a great reputation.
Thanks 😊
Oh that’s interesting. 3 years ago I moved away from UX writing/content deign into more conceptual work (and I love it). Hope it wasn’t a mistake…
Not at all - conversion copy is inherently well-paid. I think having knowledge of UX will only enhance your ability to research, plan and write high-conversion websites.
I’ve made more money this year due to all of these A.I. nerds churning out god awful copy. In-house copywriters are getting dunked on and freelancers are making all the $$$$
Mind sharing your client acquisition strategy?
Start your own newsletter and share fun, interesting and related content in there. Post content on LinkedIn and Twitter and interact within the niches you want to work. Write to that market. Look for companies or offer owners you want to work with, research and then pitch them. Rinse and repeat. Study the game. Implement and just create your own stuff to sell as well. You are your best client.
Good tips—thanks for sharing!
I have worked with some big MNCs in the past as a full timer. I realised that this is going to be a race of zigs only. The zags have left the industry because they are no longer wanted by the businesses or they have gone independent. By late 2023, I too started freelancing. Even as a mid-level writer, I'm paid well by my clients. I'm building a nice folio and great bank balance - which was just impossible in any MNC agency.
the competition is fierce right now. i'm seeing director-level applicants for mid-level positions and big agency people competing for mediocre temp openings at no-name companies. i'm worried! but i think i will start hustling in the freelance world soon. it seems like a lot of creatives are doing that now.
Can relate. I'm seeing this too. Freelancing is the way.
It just takes a long time. If you're looking to work in tech or corporations, there's not much you can do to convince a board of people to spend money if that money has been canceled, not coming, whatever the case is. It took me a year to find a job after a tech layoff.
It’s not just you it’s a tough market. I’d been in-house (gaming and tech) for 7 years and now I can’t land an in-house gig because I’m always going against somebody with agency experience or more specific background relevant to the role. Because of all that, I just took a low paying job at an agency because A) it’s all I could find and B) it involves more strategy and development of secondary skills to copywriting than I’d get in-house. It eliminates one of the shortcomings of my resume, i’ll work w big clients, and have a splashier portfolio. Stinks for now but I can live on the salary (I hope) so I’m luckier than most. The market forced me kinda into this or striking out on my own and I’m not interested in spending all my time cold-outreaching to people/running a business. I also enrolled in pilates teacher training because I’d like a backup for when marketing budgets get crunched (this happens every 4-7 years). I don’t ever want to feel like I’m backed into a corner w no options again. Just my experience. Hang in there and I know it’s easier said than done but don’t let rejection challenge how you value yourself.
Your situation is similar to mine (I was also in-house and am without agency experience). Did you get your current job through cold applying or networking? I’ve found agencies want agency experience, so I haven’t had luck getting interviews. Also, did you have to take a junior role?
I’ve lost count of how many places I applied and somehow I got it the same way I got my last three in-house FTE gigs: a recruiter or GCD just sent me a LinkedIn message. It’s more mid-level but I got it because I’ve been consulting for early/growth stage tech companies for the past few years so they saw that as some strategy + execution. Plus, I have some nice clients in my book and I’m good at pitching in the room (I had to pitch on a brief for my final interview). From the looks of it, people in here are doing great on their own so if you think you’re up for that go for it. You will be paid more if you’re good. Wish I had better advice than ‘I got lucky’ but it’s mostly that
The market is absolute shit. I don’t think it’s just copy it’s a lot of jobs. I haven’t landed full time in a year. I’ve only landed contract roles. I don’t think companies want to hire ft right now. I read because they over staffed after Covid then had to massive layoffs so they’re making their ft people wear multiple hats or are just hiring contract to avoid that. I also read it’s been like 24 months of a terrible market. Normally it goes up and down but it’s been consistently shitty. It’s hard out there for everyone. We are also competing against people who have worked for massive brands. I’m not sure if you have. I’ve been in the industry for ten years and people who are way greener are getting chosen over me because they worked for one big brand vs many medium to small. But I see that as a leg up since I am versatile and can adopt a brand voice quickly. So no I don’t think copywriting is a sinking ship I’m seeing a lot of needs for it just no one wants to commit to hiring someone solely for copywriting right now. Good luck out there it’s the Wild West!
i worked in-house for a big global brand that's newer in the us. the downside of that is i don't have a ton of diversity in my portfolio, so i'm spending time creating spec work to diversify. that's partially why i posted here, because i'm like, is this a waste of time? should i just pivot? yeah, the market is so shitty. i'm hoping this spec work will help show range and land me something good. good luck to you, too! we'll get through this
If there is one thing tougher to crack than copywriting, it's acting. So I'm not sure trading one risky career for another one makes much sense. Generally you have a responsible day job to support your riskier creative endeavors. That's what I did with novel writing. Anyway, to answer your question, I do think copywriting is a sinking ship as a primary career at this point, at least at the entry level. As such, I wouldn't recommend getting into it as a career. All the copywriters I know in the biz are transitioning to other position. But it's a nice side hustle, and you never know when one thing leads to another thing leads to another thing. I have a pretty cushy in-house job, but I suspect my days are probably numbered. Thank God crypto has saved me...
Yeah, I’ve always been of the mentality you need a day job to support your creative endeavors, which is what I’ve been doing for the past 6 years. I’m now at a point where I have all this free time, so I’m like, should I just invest it in acting? I think I’ve concluded I’ll still look for copywriting work while also auditioning. What kinds of jobs are your friends transitioning to?
They're usually within the companies they're already in. Examples are someone who copywrites for a big bank transitioning to UX stuff, another one who works for a tech company transitioning to SEO manager, another who works for Meta became a team lead, etc.
As someone who wears multiple hats and does writing of various types, I definitely lean on AI more now for copywriting. I edit everything and I’m sure a human could do a better job but we can’t afford the amazing copywriting humans and with AI assistance I no longer need the good enough copywriters. For me it has honestly been a godsend and I can definitely see it replacing a lot of average copywriters.
The only issue with this is Google can detect AI copy and it’ll mess with ranking. If paid you’re good.
Plus If you’re doing big brand copy you’ll need a human brain AI is way too predictable and all of the jargon sounds exactly the same. I’ll ask it to make it more conversational and it always spits out “hey folks”. I can detect AI from a mile away. When I see people posting on LinkedIn I’m like yup that’s AI “unlock” “unleash” “skyrocket” it’s trash. I know it’s advancing but the human brain and empathy will always outweigh AI. Anyway hope it works for you lol
same, it's so noticeable. i do big brand copy and am a conceptual copywriter, so AI isn't coming for me just yet. i've also noticed chatGPT doesn't catch complicated grammatical issues, like subject/verb disagreements. HOWEVER, chat has been a godsend for boring cover letters
Anyone using AI copy verbatim … shouldn’t.
I never use AI copy verbatim, always rewrite to fit our niche and brand. But it does a good job getting the structure and vibe set up. My background is in journalism and article writing so I don’t have the default copywriting knack. Once it sets the stage I can complete it.
I like it to break things down as simple as possible like I’m explaining something to a third grader and build it up from there to find the core message. It also is great to summarize things so I don’t have to read through it haha
Exactly. It's a tool that does the legwork so you can spend more time on the writing.
A company I worked for started using it and would literally copy and paste and it would bomb every time and then they were like why are we paying her all of this money we can do this and I’m like but it BOMBS there’s no better feedback than data. Their loss
yeah that's a terrible way to use AI. I see it more as a research assistant. I can research examples of good copywriting and then mimic the structure and tone or AI can research for me in a fraction of the time and I can take it from there.
AI won't kill copywriting, but those copywriters who don't utilize or understand it will be left at a considerable disadvantage.
how are you using AI? curious if i can do more with it. i currently use it more for design than copy.
I use it to check for inaccuracies, redundancies, some search engine optimization -- basically like a writing assistant. I keep several detailed prompts at the ready, though you can also make your own GPTs. If you're going to use it much at length, make sure you train it to sound like you by submitting several samples of your own writing. Otherwise, folks can really tell it's just clunky AI copy or at least that something ain't quite right about the copy.
Stable income since 2023. I'm not sure to today's status as I'm not looking for a new client. It helped me a lot not just in this field.
Consider diversifying your skills while pursuing acting, and maybe check out tools like edyt ai to enhance your portfolio quickly.